JONI TABLE TALK - NOVEMBER 23rd, 2025

Summary

Real America's Voice – Joni Table Talk (Nov 23rd, 2025)

Podcast: Real America’s Voice
Episode: Joni Table Talk – November 23rd, 2025
Date: November 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This special episode of Joni Table Talk explores two core themes: healing from the “orphan spirit” and navigating healthy leadership transitions in ministry and family. Through candid, faith-based discussion, guests share deeply personal stories about identity, belonging, rejection, and legacy. The episode features powerful testimony from Pastor Mark Jobe about overcoming childhood wounds and discovering true spiritual adoption, followed by insights from Pastors Kim and David Norris, a father-son duo, on how to transition leadership well—supported by practical wisdom and their book, Pass the Mic Before It Drops.

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Healing the Orphan Spirit: Mark and Sandy Jobe’s Testimony

Setting the Stage ([03:55]-[05:29])

• Host Joni introduces the emotional question, “Have you ever felt like you didn't belong?”
• The panel (Cindy Johnston, Sandy Jobe, Kim Norris, Rachel Lambront, and Cindy Murdoch) resonates with themes of feeling unseen, rejected, or not enough.
• Sandy Jobe: “At times I still battle with rejection and feeling that I'm not enough. But I'm thankful for stories like today that help you see with God, you are.” ([04:45])

Defining the Orphan Spirit ([05:54]-[07:16])

• Mark Jobe provides a working definition:

  "An orphan spirit, boiled down, is really the spirit of the enemy to try to keep you from a relationship with God." ([06:15])

• It’s described as widespread—even in churches—blocking people's ability to feel valued or comfortable in God’s presence.

Symptoms of the Orphan Spirit ([06:55]-[09:19])

• Mark Jobe lists typical signs:
  • Never feeling successful “enough”
  • Self-worth tied to performance
  • Inability to feel affirmed or valued
  • Stepping on others or needing titles for validation
  • Name-dropping to seem important
  • Feeling excluded from God’s promises
• Notable Quote:

  “When you read the promises of God in the Word and a voice says to you, ‘That doesn’t apply to you now,’ you're blocked from any hope.” ([08:11])

Mark’s Adoption Story ([10:15]-[22:32])

• Born to a mother who was only 15, Mark was adopted at age five, learning only afterward that his stepfather was not his biological dad.
• He describes feeling like he “didn’t fit in,” becoming “addicted to peer pressure” and performance in sports, striving to feel noticed or affirmed.
• Remarkably, Mark’s biological father, Sonny, lived nearby and watched his football games silently from the sidelines—unbeknownst to Mark.

  “He was on the sidelines watching me play every game... but never came up and talked to me.” ([13:18])

• Mark recounts the first moment they met: making an appointment at his father’s bank, revealing himself during a deeply emotional meeting.

  “I said I came to just meet you... I don’t want anything. And he said, ‘I’ve been waiting for this moment a long time.’” ([16:23])

Breakthrough and Spiritual Adoption ([20:33]-[24:44])

• After his father’s death, Mark describes a healing moment with his grandmother, who, after years of denial, accepted him as her grandson:

  “She starts caressing my face and said, ‘You are Sonny’s boy.’ Something broke loose inside of me...” ([20:48])

• Mark’s story climaxes as he realizes—standing over his dying father—that he looked like him but didn’t know him, paralleling his relationship with God:

  “The Lord said, ‘You look like me, but you don’t know me...’ That’s when that broke in me, and I began to have relationship with my heavenly Father.” ([21:19])

• Mark leads listeners through a prayer to receive the “spirit of adoption,” emphasizing relationship over religion:

  “The Father will not disappoint you. He'll never leave you. He'll never forsake you... By the authority of the Word of God, you've been... accepted into the family of God. There’s a place for you at the table.” ([26:44])

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Keys to Healthy Leadership Transition: “Pass the Mic Before It Drops”

Introducing the Transition Theme ([35:34]-[37:11])

• Joni pivots the conversation to leadership and legacy, introducing pastors Kim and David Norris, authors of Pass the Mic Before It Drops.
• Panelists discuss the importance of legacy, transitioning roles, and honoring those who paved the way.
• Notable Quote:

  “Legacy is history repeating itself... No matter your past, you get to choose what that's gonna look like for future generations.” – Dorothy Newton ([37:37])

The Norris Family’s Transition Story ([40:03]-[47:00])

• Kim Norris shares how David began in youth ministry, serving and learning without demanding the pulpit, acknowledging the slow process of maturing into leadership.
• David Norris discusses the challenges and pressures of growing up in ministry, his struggles with stuttering, rejection, and childhood abuse – and ultimately, his conversion at church camp.
  • His journey included acknowledging trauma, seeking counseling, and accepting accountability.
• Notable Quote:

  “We need people to help us understand ourselves. We need God… and we need the right people to help us: pastors, counselors, etc., and shining the light.” – David Norris ([52:11])

Transition Wisdom and Practical Steps ([55:01]-[61:00])

• Kim Norris describes assessing successors on patterns and attitude, not just potential:

  “If we think, hey, they'll change later, usually that's a mistake. …There is no success without a successor." ([55:46])

• David Norris emphasizes humility in successors: learn from those who came before you, respect differences, and honor legacy.
  • Avoid sudden, drastic change during transition; instead, initiate major shifts while the predecessor is still leading so that the team and culture can adapt gradually.
  • Notable Quote:

    “A lot of people… don’t change anything until they pass it, and then the new person becomes the bad guy. That’s a disaster.” ([58:02])

• Both warn: Don’t force a transition if there are heart or character issues.
  • “Legacy is too precious… Avoid the stumble and the transition.” ([60:48])

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Memorable Quotes and Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|-------|---------| | 06:15 | “An orphan spirit, boiled down, is really the spirit of the enemy to try to keep you from a relationship with God.” | Mark Jobe | | 08:11 | “When you read the promises of God in the Word and a voice says to you, ‘That doesn’t apply to you now,’ you’re blocked from any hope.” | Mark Jobe | | 13:18 | “He was on the sidelines watching me play every game... but never came up and talked to me.” | Mark Jobe | | 20:48 | “She starts caressing my face and said, ‘You are Sonny’s boy.’ Something broke loose inside of me...” | Mark Jobe | | 26:44 | “The Father will not disappoint you. He'll never leave you. He'll never forsake you... By the authority of the Word of God, you've been... accepted into the family of God. There’s a place for you at the table.” | Mark Jobe | | 37:37 | “Legacy is history repeating itself... No matter your past, you get to choose what that's gonna look like for future generations.” | Dorothy Newton | | 55:46 | “If we think, hey, they'll change later, usually that's a mistake. …There is no success without a successor.” | Kim Norris | | 58:02 | “A lot of people… don’t change anything until they pass it, and then the new person becomes the bad guy. That’s a disaster.” | David Norris | | 60:48 | “Legacy is too precious… Avoid the stumble and the transition.” | David Norris |

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Key Takeaways

• Healing identity wounds: The path to overcoming rejection—a sense of orphanhood—requires acceptance not just from family but from God as a loving Father. Healing comes through relationship, not performance.
• Practical signs to watch for: Symptoms like performance mentality, striving for approval, feeling disqualified from promises, and over-valuing titles can all point to deeper wounds of abandonment or rejection.
• Transitioning leadership: Successors must lead with humility, respect for history, and willingness to adapt. The process should be gradual and intentional—with predecessors enabling change before the handoff.
• Legacy is intentional: Legacy is built consciously, requires qualifying the next leader, and is jeopardized by ignoring character or heart issues.
• Faith and restoration: The spiritual dimension of belonging—knowing God as Father—restores true identity and breaks the cycle of orphan-thinking.

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Important Timestamps

• Defining Orphan Spirit: [06:15]–[09:19]
• Mark Jobe’s testimony: [10:15]–[24:44]
• Prayer for healing and spiritual adoption: [26:44]–[29:29]
• Introductions and context for leadership transition: [35:34]–[37:11]
• Norris Family’s transition and healing journey: [40:03]–[52:11]
• Transition best practices and red flags: [55:01]–[61:00]

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Final Thoughts

This deeply personal, faith-oriented episode provides comfort and instruction for anyone struggling with identity, rejection, or complex family histories, as well as practical wisdom for those facilitating succession—be it in church, family, or business.
"You don’t have to earn your place or prove your worth. Jesus is calling you today. He has a table prepared and a seat ready for you." ([29:29], Joni)

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Transcript

[Joni]

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[Joni]

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[Kim Norris]

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[Sandy Jobe]

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[Mark Jobe]

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[Mark Jobe]

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[Joni]

So have you ever felt like you didn't belong? Maybe you've struggled to feel seen or even wanted? Well, today's guests are here to share their powerful journey of healing from rejection to discovering true identity. So you want to be sure to stay tuned for that. But before we get to that, joining me around the table is Cindy Johnston. How are you?

[Sandy Jobe]

Hey.

[Joni]

Doing well. You look beautiful today. Thank you. Thank you. And you know, I was thinking about you because, I mean, we're not going to tell your story today, but like your mother, you know, leaving when you were what, 13? 13. Yes. I bet that was, that was like almost like an identity crisis for you, wasn't it? Absolutely. And it was something that carried on into my adulthood. And at times I still battle with rejection and feeling that I'm not enough. But I'm thankful for stories like today that help you see with God.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Joni]

Yes. Yes. Kendra, Kelly Dean. How are you doing?

[Kim Norris]

I'm good.

[Sandy Jobe]

And I think everybody wants to be right. Everybody wants to feel needed and wanted.

[Joni]

And loved or know where you belong, like fit in, like, where did you come from and why are you here exactly?

[Sandy Jobe]

And what did all of that? And so I think this is gonna be a great show and I think it's going to really minister to people today that are having that longing in their heart.

[Joni]

Everybody, you want to stay tuned for this, Stay right there. Don't go anywhere. Rachel Lambront, how are you?

[Sandy Jobe]

I'm good. I'm very excited about our guests today. He's a pastor at our church and you would never know his story or what he's gone because he doesn't have any residue of any.

[Joni]

He doesn't.

[Sandy Jobe]

And I think that's the power of the transformation of Christ.

[Joni]

It is.

[Sandy Jobe]

So I'm excited for him to share it today.

[Joni]

It really is. Cindy Murdoch. I was my daddy's princess, you know, so I didn't understand what we're going to talk about today. But it's so needed to be shared because then it helps those of us that don't understand that how to relate or just have some compassion and reach out to people that have gone through that in their lives. That's so true. Mark and Sandy Jobe, welcome to the table.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Joni]

So good to have both of you here. And they're dear friends. We love them so much. You know, we all want to be loved and accepted, but sometimes life leaves us feeling abandoned. Mark and Sandy Jobe know that feeling very well, and they're here to share how God wants to free us from an orphan spirit. Mark, before you get into your story, what is an orphan spirit? For those that are watching, an orphan.

[Mark Jobe]

Spirit, I mean, boiled down, is really the spirit of the enemy to try to keep you from a relationship with God. And so. But you find it rampant even in churches where people have given their hearts to Jesus. But because of the wounds of their childhood, some would call them father wounds, mother wounds, because of the wounds of their childhood. They just don't feel, should I say, valued or comfortable in the presence of God.

[Joni]

Yeah.

[Mark Jobe]

And you find people, they will struggle even in worship, because worship invites us into the presence of God. So you'll see some of these people holding back. They're precious people, but they just don't get worship because they struggle.

[Joni]

Before you tell your story, what are some of the symptoms like for people watching? What are some of the symptoms of someone that's carrying an orphaned spirit? Because I want to tell you that you can be set free from that today. And we want you to be set free from it. And it's a lie from the enemy. But what are some of the symptoms where somebody watching, like, oh, wow, I.

[Mark Jobe]

Do that Well, I had one of those aha moments with the Lord on this subject, and I wrote some things down. I want to read them to you because I don't want to miss them because I feel like it hits almost every angle that the orphan spirit tries to get us to believe this lie. Okay. So one of them would be this. If you feel like no matter how successful you become, it's never enough. How many people do we know battle with that? Number two, if your self worth is connected to how well you perform, that may be an orphan Spirit. That's where I grew up. Performance mentality. You just don't feel. For instance, when Jesus was baptized, the father spoke to him, said, you're my beloved son, in whom I'm well pleased. He dealt with sonship, he dealt with love. You're my beloved son. He established his identity. Then, well pleased. Jesus hadn't even started his ministry yet. But he said, you're well pleasing. So all those things are what we need to be freed from an orphan spirit. Does that make sense?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Mark Jobe]

Let me read a couple more. No matter how much affirmation someone gives you, you still don't feel valued. That would be an orphan spirit. In the hierarchy of your world, you justify stepping on others to get to the top. We've seen that in the business world, we've seen that in church. Here's one more. Titles matter to you because you feel less than you know. Call me Pastor, call me Bishop, call me whatever, because I don't feel important. That would be the fruit of an orphan spirit. No matter how many times your family or your spouse tells you they love you, you still feel unloved. Orphan spirit. This is a big one here. Every famous person you meet is another notch in your belt. And you name drop to feel more significant. I'm around that a lot with men. Let me tell you who I met or let me tell you. And then the last one I wrote down was, when you read the promises, this may be the saddest. When you read the promises of God in the Word and a voice says to you, that doesn't apply to you now. You're blocked from any hope. You're blocked from any future breakthrough because, well, that doesn't apply to me. That doesn't apply to me. And you can be so excited about a promise from the Word and you share it with someone with an orphan spirit. They don't get it.

[Joni]

Yeah. So Jeremiah 29:11. You know, I know the plans I have for you to give you a future and a hope. I mean, that if someone has an orphan spirit, they almost can't receive that. And yet that's for them.

[Mark Jobe]

It robs you of your hope because it takes away future vision. And the Word is full of promises. And those of us who've begun to be freed from the orphan spirit, we can latch onto promises. I'm holding onto a promise right now. We've been walking through a difficult time in our home church, and yet I'm holding on to promises. I know God said to me, because he doesn't lie.

[Joni]

That's so Good. So let's go back and I want you just to go through your story because it's so powerful and some of you are going to relate to what Mark shared. So just get ready and fasten your seatbelt, get a cup of hot tea and coffee, whatever, and just listen because I really believe the Holy Spirit wants to speak to you today. And there's some things that are going on in your life that are definitely connected to this. So I want you to listen. So start at the beginning.

[Mark Jobe]

Okay. As I do, let me just say I believe that the Lord allowed so many things to happen because he wanted to interject himself and help me understand the layers of an orphan spirit. So with me and with most people, it started with my birth. I was born to a 15 year old mother. She turned 15 one month before I was born, so she was 14 when she carried me. She ended up leaving school. And so my biological father, he married her, but he took her home the same night and said to her, two wrongs don't make a right. I'm sorry I got you pregnant. I'll help you financially with the baby. Wrong. For us to be married in the state of Texas. You can't just annul a marriage if there's a baby involved. And so they had to go through a divorcement and there had to be child support, all those things. But then he left and joined the army. So my mother and my grandparents raised me. My grandmother had such an impact on my life. She, my grandmother and my grandfather were the first real Christians I ever met. And my grandmother had polio and so she raised me from a wheelchair. And I'll just say she was fast with that yardstick, I'll tell you. But they raised me those early years. Then my mother remarried when I was about three years old. And then at age five, this just vividly stands out in my mind. I remember the room I was in when they sat me down to tell me that I was being adopted. And I didn't know that this man was not my real father. So when they tried to explain it to me, it wasn't a happy moment for me. What I heard in my little heart was, where's your father? Why were you rejected? Where did he go? They were celebrating, but I didn't catch that. And I'll say from that day forward I felt like something was wrong with me. I didn't fit in. I can remember going to my grandparents house on my stepfather's side and I just didn't fit. I look back on it now and say Well, I wasn't a job. I was a tailor. But now that I'm adopted, my last name is Job. I tried to fit in, but there were just so many things on those early years. So I. When people say, were you addicted to drugs? No, I was never addicted to drugs. I was never addicted to alcohol. I was addicted to peer pressure because it fit that performance mentality where I've got to live up to something so someone will notice me and say, good job.

[Joni]

And I live upsell at sports. Played football. And you did really well.

[Mark Jobe]

I did. And I was small. I mean, I laugh about it now. I was 138 pounds, running back in a high school team.

[Joni]

I was gonna say, we're running fast.

[Kim Norris]

You had to be.

[Mark Jobe]

It's like you get hit, it's over, you know? So you learn to run fast. But here's the interesting part of the story. I found out later that in high school football, my biological father's name's Sonny. Sonny moved his new family to our little country town so he could watch me grow up from a distance. And I didn't know it, but he was on the sidelines watching me play every game.

[Joni]

But never came up and talked to you? You didn't know he was there?

[Mark Jobe]

No. He told me later he didn't want to interrupt my life.

[Joni]

I was wondering.

[Mark Jobe]

And so he just stood on the sidelines and watched me play all the way through the high school years to the state championship. We won the state championship, and he was on the sidelines watching me play.

[Joni]

Wow. So when did this girl come into your life? Right here.

[Mark Jobe]

Right in the best part. I had just gotten saved, so I'd been saved about a year. I gave my heart to the Lord at 16. Called to preach, called to ministry at age 17. But I met her the summer between my sophomore and junior year at a summer camp. I'm all for summer camp.

[Joni]

What did you think? What did you think when you saw her?

[Mark Jobe]

Oh, my goodness. She was different. You know, I grew up around a bunch of cowgirls. I didn't know what a city girl was like.

[Joni]

You were a Dallas girl, right?

[Mark Jobe]

That's right. So I lived in Waco, and she lived in Dallas. But we met one afternoon around the piano. She sang in a group, and I sang in a group, and we wound up around a piano one afternoon and just started singing together.

[Joni]

Then y' all had singing children together.

[Mark Jobe]

And now we have singing children.

[Joni]

Okay, so y' all end up getting married, and then fast forward to. That's another whole story. We can Come back and share Yalls testimony of how you're still here, right?

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah, that's right.

[Joni]

But marriage isn't always easy, right? That's right. I mean, so. But look what God has done. So you're playing putt putt. What happened?

[Mark Jobe]

You wanna tell that part?

[Joni]

Well, we were playing putt putt with.

[Sandy Jobe]

Friends, and one of his friends asked.

[Mark Jobe]

Me if I thought Mark would ever.

[Joni]

Have the desire to meet his biological father. And I said, I don't know.

[Sandy Jobe]

Why don't you ask him?

[Joni]

And so Mark said, ask me what?

[Sandy Jobe]

And so he asked you ask him.

[Joni]

If he wanted to, if he ever had the thought to meet his dad or see his dad.

[Sandy Jobe]

And Mark said, well, yeah.

[Joni]

And so he pointed across the putt putt field, and there was his family. And so the reason that his dad was actually there with his family and the guy points him out to you, Mark, what did you think when you saw him?

[Mark Jobe]

Well, I wanted. First of all, when I saw him, I'm like, oh, my goodness. Something lit up inside of me because.

[Joni]

He looked like him.

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah. And I'm like, I want to meet him, you know? But I didn't want to meet him then. I knew it would be uncomfortable. He had his two daughters with him. But I turned to my friend and said, how did you know? He knew more about my story than I did. At least that part. Well, his mother. So the young man that introduced me or showed me my dad, his name was Tommy. His mother was a schoolteacher, along with my stepmom, and they talked about me. And so Tommy knew my story.

[Joni]

Wow.

[Mark Jobe]

And so when I looked over and I saw my dad for the first time and wanted to meet him, I just knew, I've got to make this happen. So a few weeks later, I made an appointment to go see him. He was a vice president of a bank.

[Joni]

You made an appointment.

[Mark Jobe]

Made an appointment to go see him.

[Sandy Jobe]

Who did you say? Like, what was the reason for the appointment?

[Mark Jobe]

I didn't tell them, you know, they just figured it was financial, you know, and it was. Yeah.

[Joni]

Did you give your name, Mark Job?

[Mark Jobe]

No, I didn't. I didn't. I told the assistant that my name was Mark. And so they set me up with an appointment. So I'm sitting there in his office, and the doorway's here. I'm facing his desk.

[David Norris]

So he's.

[Mark Jobe]

He comes in and he walks past me, and he just kind of notices me, says, hello, young man. And he walks around and he sits down. He says, how may I help you? And he recognized me. And I said I came from my inheritance. You know, I didn't really say that, but I wanted to say that. No, I said I came to just meet you. I've always wanted to meet you. And I actually said to him that day, I don't want anything. I just want to meet you. And he said, I've been waiting for this moment for a long time. And so we talked for about an hour, and he told me about the army and all the stories I'd heard about my upbringing and all that he knew from his side. He filled in the details.

[Joni]

And did he tell you that he had been coming to your games?

[Mark Jobe]

No, I didn't learn about that yet.

[Joni]

You didn't learn yet?

[Mark Jobe]

I didn't know about that, and I didn't find out about that until after he passed away.

[Joni]

Really?

[Kim Norris]

Yeah.

[Mark Jobe]

Then they started telling me all the stories. It's like, oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Found out I played on the same golf course he played on, but never knew that he was my dad.

[Joni]

Wow. So interesting. I know you told me that during one of the games or the playoffs or whatever, that he was actually on the sideline with your stepdad talking to him about you. So they knew each other?

[Mark Jobe]

They knew each other. They knew each other from high school, but they would stand on the sidelines and talk, and he'd ask questions about how I was doing.

[Joni]

And your stepdad had no idea?

[Mark Jobe]

Oh, my stepdad knew. He was.

[Joni]

Yeah, we knew. Okay.

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah, so they talked about it, but my stepdad never told me that he was standing on the sidelines talking to son. He never told me.

[Joni]

Wow.

[Sandy Jobe]

Why do you think they never did?

[Mark Jobe]

I think it's kind of the old philosophy of that generation. Let a sleeping dog lie. Don't wake up a problem. You know, don't make matters.

[Joni]

What did it do for you when you finally got to meet your dad and you looked at him and you saw that you looked like him, like you're dealing with that orphan spirit. What did it do to help you as far as.

[Mark Jobe]

Well, it made me wonder. For instance, it made me wonder, what would my life have been like? How different would life if he would have been my father?

[Joni]

I mean, your mother provided, but there wasn't, like, an abundance, right?

[Mark Jobe]

That's right. Yeah. And my grandparents raised me most of the early years, but, no, I didn't live in the kind of house that a banker could buy. And so life would have been so different. But yet I have to look back and go, the Lord knew. He knew what I needed. He really Did.

[Joni]

Okay, so he gets sick and. Pretty young, right?

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah. So how old would he have been? He was in his 40s. He had a cerebral hemorrhage.

[Joni]

Oh, wow.

[Mark Jobe]

And not expected to live. They tried to do surgery and it didn't work. So he was in a coma. And I got a phone call from my grandfather saying, if you want to see Sonny alive, you need to get to the hospital. So they gave me a phone number to call. No cell phones back then. So I called the waiting room and got to my stepmother, and she. She said, yes, we want you to come up, but please don't tell the girls who you are. And everyone else in the family, they know who you are, but don't tell the girls. And so these would be my two half sisters. Don't tell them. And then they said, and granny Taylor wants to meet you, but we need to warn you, she is from Czechoslovakia. She's very high spirited. She has said all these years, you're not her grandson. We don't know what she's going to say.

[Joni]

Oh, goodness.

[Mark Jobe]

She may slap you. She may curse you. So I'm just kind of ready. But when I walked in, sisters recognized me from school. And she said, mark Job, what are you doing here? And the whole family's, like, frozen. What am I going to say? And I said, well, I'm a pastor. Pastor, come visit. Will come visit people in the hospital. I came to check on your dad. And how are you guys doing? You know? So I got past that first question, but then I waited out in the hallway, and my grandmother walked up and. Little bitty lady. And look at that.

[Joni]

This is your real grandmother.

[Mark Jobe]

It's my real grandmother. Never met her. And, you know, they warned me she might slap you. So here comes this right hand. She starts back here with it, and I'm ready, but she comes in slowly and she starts caressing my face. And she said, you are Sonny's boy.

[Joni]

Wow.

[Mark Jobe]

Something broke loose inside of me when she said that. I didn't know I needed to hear that, but I needed family to say, you belong. And interesting enough, I found out later, after she passed away, she wrote me in the will, which solidified that she believed that was her grandson also.

[Joni]

You got to go into the hospital room where your dad was and tell us about that experience. What happened?

[Mark Jobe]

About three nights in a row, I'd stay late, and one night I was in there and I'm just praying. And I was having some experiences with the Lord because I didn't realize this was about healing for me. And one of the experiences I had with the Lord was the closer my father got to death, he kept losing weight, and the more weight he lost. I saw his hands look like my hands, and his feet looked like my feet. And I saw the jawbones and the deep set eyes. And I'm just, oh, my goodness, I look like this man. And the Lord spoke to me in the middle of it. I'm just like, I look like this man, but I don't know him. And the lord said, you look like me, but you don't know me because you don't spend time with me. And even though I was a Christian, I would talk to Jesus, but I wouldn't talk to the father. I could feel the father's presence, but I wouldn't turn and talk to the father. And that's when that broke in me and I began to have relationship with my heavenly father. But one night, one of the nurses walked in and she said, young man, I don't know who you are, but every time you talk to him, his heart monitor responds, I believe he can hear you. So I took that as from the lord, and I made peace with him, forgave him, and prayed, leaned down and.

[Joni]

Whispered in his ear and talked to him. I mean, I've interviewed people that have died and come back, and they all say that they can hear. And so you actually kind of led him through prayer of salvation as well.

[Mark Jobe]

I did. I just walked him through the whole thing. And I said, don't let this be the last time we see each other. And felt a release that night. He actually passed away the next day.

[Sandy Jobe]

So was the only time you actually got to see him in person besides the hospital was when you went to the bank.

[David Norris]

Mm.

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah. So the distance at the putt putt course and at the bank. And then the last time was at the hospital.

[Joni]

Wow. So it was pretty close from the bank to the hospital. Right. The time that he had just a couple years.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Wow.

[Mark Jobe]

We kept saying, we'll get back together, but really the ball was in his court because he was going to tell his girls and then have me over. And he never told the girls.

[Joni]

And now they know. The girls?

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah, they know now. But, you know, we didn't talk about this. I didn't talk about this publicly for many years because it brought shame to my mother because when my father died and in the newspapers in Waco, it came out that he had a son, Mark jobe from Dallas. People started calling my mother, saying, is this the same Mark Job? She was so full of shame, she Never told her story, so I didn't tell the story. But a few years ago, my mother passed away and the Lord started saying, I need you to tell your story.

[Joni]

So when did the breakthrough come for you where you really got set free from that orphan spirit? And some of the things that you read that you felt growing up.

[Mark Jobe]

Well, it's definitely been a process. You know, I've laughed about it and said I could tell how messed up I was by how many fathers I needed to get healed. Okay. Because I had pastors and youth pastors and coaches and, you know, and Sandy's helped me so much. She'll point out sometimes that's orphan thinking. And, like, I'll hold back on certain things. She says, I say no to the wrong things and yes. Or I say no to the good and yes to the bad. Because sometimes I just have lived in fear. I've lived in fear financially, I've lived in fear and stepping out, making some decisions, things like that, all orphan minded. And so it's been a process in the process of my family of origin being part of the healing. I'll say this, the day my uncle called and said to me, he said, I'm sending you some papers to sign because Granny Taylor wrote you into the will. Something broke loose of me that day. I think some financial bondage broke loose of me that day. And it wasn't that my inheritance was a lot. It was just the fact that that was broken in my life. And then another thing that was very significant, when I went to my grandmother's funeral, Sandy was with me. We walked down in the church, I viewed my grandmother. And then later at the graveside, a man walked up to me and he said, you don't know me, but I was one of your dad's best friends. And today when you walked past me in the church, he said, I turned to my wife and I said, look at that man. That's Sonny's son. I can tell by the way he walks. And I don't know if you know, Carrie, my daughter, and Cody, but Cody has a son. Carrie and Cody have a son named Kingston. And you could watch that kid walk and go, that's Cody's boy. So it wasn't something I had copied my dad because I was never around him, but my gait, the way I stepped, the way my mannerisms, all of those things. As a matter of fact, my stepmother had difficulty for several years being around me because I looked so much like my dad and I acted like him and I talked like him. My mannerisms were like him. But that day when he said, you walk like your dad, something also got healed in me.

[Joni]

Yeah, so good. I was thinking about my husband. Never got to know his biological father. But when he got saved at 19, he really connected to his heavenly father. And that changed everything for him and for you too, right? And so what would you say, Mark, to people watching right now? There may be somebody watching that maybe you don't even know the Lord or you haven't even received Jesus into your heart. That's the most important prayer you can do today. But maybe talk about that. And also, how can they be free from the orphan spirit, those that are watching right now?

[Mark Jobe]

Yes. I'd like to say this to you. If you focus on getting free from the orphan spirit, you may fight a battle for the rest of your life and not get the fruit you're looking for. But if you'll realize that you have a perfect Father in heaven and he loves you with an undying love. And the whole fact that Jesus came from heaven to earth to save you and forgive you, it is so much bigger than religion. It is a relationship with the Father that will heal you from an orphan spirit. So just think about it. God wants to restore to you your identity. He wants to restore to you all the areas of security. He wants to restore to you your inheritance and eternal inheritance all the things that he wants to do. He has a calling on your life. You don't have to just be a pastor to have a calling. You have a calling, and that means you have a destiny. And all those things are provided for by relationship with the Father. So the foundation of it, the start, is give your heart to Jesus, yield to the family. Jesus came to forgive you, save you, set you free. It's like changing the judicial control of your heart. No longer can an orphan spirit control you. He's lost the judicial right. And the Bible says that the spirit of adoption will overwhelm you. I've known people who God's distant to them. They talk about God like he's the big man upstairs. They're kind about God, but they don't have a personal relationship with God. Can I tell you that the Father will not disappoint you. He'll never leave you. He'll never forsake you. He'll never lie to you. All the things that maybe an earthly father did to hurt you, Father, God will not. He's the perfect Father. And as a matter of fact, you can pray right now, inviting Jesus into your heart so that the whole, like I said a moment ago, the judicial system, the legal system of an orphan spirit hanging onto you is broken. Let me help you with that prayer. All you have to do is say, father, I want to be adopted. I want to know that I belong to you. Thank you for sending Jesus to die for me. I refuse to fight any longer. I yield to you, Lord. I ask you to forgive me. I ask you to cleanse me. And I accept the spirit of adoption. I belong to you. I'm yours. You're my father, and I'm your child. And I'm going to tell you, by the authority of the word of God, you've been not only what the Bible calls born again, but you've been accepted into the family of God. There's a place for you at the table. And your father, Father God is your personal father now because of that. And that's what breaks the spirit of an orphan off of us.

[Joni]

I love that. I love that. Well, we are at a time I want you to remember you don't have to earn your place or prove your worth or run from your past. Jesus is calling you today. He has a table prepared and a seat ready for you. And all you have to do is say yes. And for those of you that prayed that prayer today, there's a prayer line number that's on the screen. We'd love for you to call and let us know that you prayed. We'd love to pray with you. I'd love to send you the Gospel of John as our gift. It's a great place to start in the Word of God, but it is the most important prayer that you can pray. But I really felt what resonated with me was something you said, Mark, is that there are a lot of people watching that you don't know your father or your father has passed, or there's no way to really get in touch with your father or your mother or your family of origin. And what we're saying today is Heavenly Father is just like, waiting for you to come into his arms. I mean, he loves you so much, wants to have a personal relationship with you. And if you start to navigate that in a way where you open your heart and talk to him just like we're talking around the table, it'll change your life. I mean, he will begin to speak to you through his word. He'll speak to you through worship or songs, and you'll feel his presence. And you can get up every morning and say, okay, Heavenly Father, what are we doing today? And he'll start giving you impressions I mean and you will start to have a real relationship with the Father that loves you so very much. Well, I do want to thank Mark and Sandy for joining us. To know more about their ministry, you can visit gatewaypeople.com as always, make sure to follow us on our social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes, exclusive content and let us know how Table Talk is touching your life. We love hearing from all of you. Of course you can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcast available now on all the major platforms. But I want to thank you so much for watching, especially those of you. This resonated with you and it spoke to you and the Holy Spirit is just opened your heart to receive just healing in this area. And I'm excited about the days ahead because just like Mark said, God has continued purpose and destiny for you. He really does. Okay, if you prayed that prayer, call the number. If you need prayer for anything at all, call that number. Thank you. Thank you ladies. Thank you Mark and Sandy. Love you all so very much. Thank you for sharing. Great, great story. Isn't God good? We'll see you next time. Bye bye for today.

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[Kim Norris]

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[David Norris]

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Viewer discretion advised.

[Mark Jobe]

Sam.

[Joni]

So how can leaders transition well without risking the trust, health or mission of their organization? Well, today's guests are a father and son who have walked through transition in ministry and they're here to share from their book, Pass the Mic Before It Drops. I love that title because usually we hear Drop the Mic. So this is Pass the Mic Before It Drops. Before we get to that, join me around the table. Skyra Kelly Dean and this is a story you can understand, relate to.

[Sandy Jobe]

Oh absolutely.

[Joni]

Because your father in law, Dan Dean, started a church.

[Sandy Jobe]

That's right. Well, it was Dusty's grandfather and then he transitioned to Dan. And then in 2019, right before COVID we transitioned from them to me and Dusty and we learned so much and we're having such a great time doing it. But it is really important. How you do this is so special.

[Joni]

It was so important. It was a long process though.

[Sandy Jobe]

Yeah, we had a five year plan then a three year plan. I mean we were very intentional with it and honestly we can say that when it happened it was. And we'd already made some fun changes and everything was great.

[Joni]

Yeah, it was just, it was beautiful. Beautiful transition. Not always the story, sadly. No. No. So we're gonna talk about that. How do we do that? Anna Kendall, how are you?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I'm just great.

[Joni]

You look so beautiful. Oh thank you.

[Sandy Jobe]

Thank You.

[Joni]

Rachel Lamb Brown, how are you?

[Sandy Jobe]

I'm good. I'm excited to talk about this because, you know, legacy is so important. And, you know, to dad, like, he used to talk about that, and we would actively, you know, just kind of.

[Joni]

And we have been family working together for many years.

[Sandy Jobe]

Yes. And so it's important to have a plan, Indra.

[Joni]

Yes.

[Sandy Jobe]

And work your plans and execute it well.

[Joni]

Or have a plan. And what I love about their story, a servant's heart. Amen. When you're willing to. That's what makes it work. Willing to honor and walk it out in the way God would intend.

[Sandy Jobe]

Pastor Russell Evans, he's like a mentor to Josh and I. He always says that what you honor, who you honor, you can receive from.

[Joni]

That's so good. Dorothy Newton, how are you doing? Really good. We've seen it, like transition work in a good way and a bad way, haven't we?

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Absolutely.

[Joni]

Absolutely. You know, legacy is history repeating itself. And the great thing about it is, no matter what your past is, you get to choose what that's gonna look like for future generations. And I just. I love God because he. He reveals that over and over and over again. No matter what happens, whether you're a single parent or not, he is always present. And, you know, that legacy can be beautiful for anybody. And, you know, Cindy Murdock, we're not talking about just legacy and ministry. Like, my grandfather was not in ministry, but he received the Lord at 19 and changed the trajectory of our family. And he would marry my grandma, raise seven children, and impact them. And then my dad. I mean, it was just. And you can see the legacy of godliness and faithfulness and humility that would be passed down. And now it talks about the children's children. Oh, I know. I'm part of the children's children. And grandpa has a part of that. Exactly. Think about that. I think transitions can be so beautiful. And I know. I think about the transition when I was gonna stepped down from being a worship leader and who I knew I was going to pass it to. And I. And it was somebody that had been on the team and was so great a team player. And I felt like the Lord said, cindy, it's like football. It's time for you to pass the ball. It doesn't matter who makes the touchdown, as long as the team gets the touchdown. And so that's what I've always remembered. That's good. And so today, patience. Pastors Kim and David Norris, welcome.

[David Norris]

Thank you.

[Joni]

To the table. We're going to talk about this in your book. Pass the mic before it drops. It's going to be good. Pastor Kim Norris has preached the gospel for decades, and now his son, Pastor David Norris, is leading the next generation. Together they have navigated seamless transition. Well, maybe not seamless. Pretty seamless. And they're here to help others do the same. And that's one reason why you wrote the book. I mean, I have seen situations in ministry and in business where the father would be very successful and then the son or daughter would want to just come along and take over without any training, transition, humility, or servant's heart. Just like, you know, this belongs to me and I should do it. And that attitude will never work, will it, Kim?

[Kim Norris]

And to your point, Joni, that David demonstrated right from the beginning, he just wanted to be a servant of God and labor in the church. No demands about preaching. And I'm very thankful.

[Joni]

And he started like with the young people, right?

[Kim Norris]

Yes. College age students.

[Joni]

He said, I need you to go work in this area.

[Kim Norris]

Right.

[Joni]

And he could have said, well, no, dad, I'm ready to get up behind the pulpit and preach. He didn't do that.

[Kim Norris]

No, he didn't. And he wasn't ready at that point.

[Mark Jobe]

He knew that, yes, he had the.

[Kim Norris]

Anointing, had the fire, he loved the scripture, but there's an emotional maturity that just needs to process.

[Joni]

Yeah, yeah. I remember my late husband said that about our kids. Like, he so wanted them to continue the legacy. But I remember we had a long conversation. He said, but they're not ready right now. And so you kind of have to wait and see that training take place. Because I know when I was 30 years old, the wisdom I had versus now that I'm, that I'm 50 something years old in a few years is so different, isn't it?

[David Norris]

Yes.

[Joni]

And so did you find that out, David? I mean, through the years of transitioning, of, wow, being a pastor is so much more than just getting up and preaching.

[David Norris]

Well, I never actually pushed him out. I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to take it right away because I saw the burden that my parents carried growing up and I knew it's.

[Joni]

And you kind of leaned into that, right?

[Mark Jobe]

I did, I did.

[David Norris]

And it's, you know, it's real, it's not easy. And so I was patient. And then as we became the pastors, it's a challenge, you know, it just, you know, there's great times, there's tough times.

[Sandy Jobe]

Where do you think most people get it wrong?

[Kim Norris]

That's a good question. I think it goes both ways. You know, I think obviously it's hard to for human nature to delegate power. And we see it today in every dimension.

[Joni]

Especially you, pastor for 30 years.

[Kim Norris]

Yes.

[Joni]

So the people love you.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Yes.

[Sandy Jobe]

They're your baby.

[Kim Norris]

And in fact, my mom said, what are you doing? The church is finally to the place that you really want it and now you're giving it to your son. Mom, I said, it's David's time.

[Mark Jobe]

Yeah, it really is.

[Kim Norris]

And it's my time to go on and I'm living my dream now.

[Joni]

And you know, let's talk a little bit about that because you had really probably looking back, would have never realized that in transitioning because now David's been pastoring for almost 11 years, the church.

[Kim Norris]

Yes, ma'.

[Joni]

Am. But you still have been there, been a force, you still show up. And I guess the church probably still supports some of the stuff that you're doing.

[Mark Jobe]

Absolutely.

[Joni]

But what did God put in your heart? It kind of changed your identity as far as being the pastor of that church.

[Kim Norris]

I had a dream when I was 21 and Alma Hedgepath, the one that led us to Christ, prophesied and said, you're going to speak in nations in Africa. And I see thousands of people coming. It planted a seed and it kept growing through the years and it finally got released. And so I already had something inside of me that was pushing me forward.

[Sandy Jobe]

Do you think that's key though, whenever you're transitioning away, that there's something else for you to transition to? Like maybe it gets really messy when the person that's leaving doesn't really go anywhere.

[Kim Norris]

And it's difficult at times, maybe perhaps to see a new vision for yourself or a new self image of what you can be. But God said, the righteous shall.

[Mark Jobe]

The path of the righteous is a.

[Kim Norris]

Shining light that shines more and more to the perfect day. So God's plan is not less, it's brighter, stronger.

[Joni]

That's a good word. That's a good word for somebody watching right now that you have maybe transitioned from one to. And God is like, okay, I'm gonna take all that you have learned here and I'm gonna move you over here. And you thought you were just gonna like semi retire and God is like, no, you are not. I mean, for me, I started in music, in worship. That's what I did. That was my lane, that was my little, you know, and then it moved to, you know, co hosting, and then it moved to hosting, and then it moved to leading Which I was leading, but being the leader. And so you can see each one of those transitions. It's like, you know, we were watching the series that Josh told us to watch about David, House of David. So House of David. Oh, so good. Because you see the shepherd boy who then becomes the psalmist, who plays in the palace, who then becomes a warrior, who then becomes a king.

[David Norris]

So good.

[Joni]

But he had to go through all those different. So tell us. And we're going to get to David's story because I want to talk about some of the hurdles you had to overcome to even be where you are right now. But what are you doing right now? Tell us about some of the international things.

[Kim Norris]

I just got back from Pakistan, and the day after we left, they shut down all the airspace. So we got out in time before.

[Mark Jobe]

This war broke out with Israel.

[Joni]

So what's the story? Because I know we have people that watch, you know, in Pakistan, Jesus said.

[Kim Norris]

The fields are white. I mean, they're just ready by the thousands to hear the gospel.

[Joni]

So you get excited about doing this.

[Kim Norris]

Oh, man.

[Joni]

So what happened?

[Kim Norris]

I was a good pastor, but I'm a better evangelist.

[David Norris]

Amen.

[Joni]

He agrees.

[Kim Norris]

He agrees.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

He agrees.

[Joni]

So you're having some great things happen overseas.

[Kim Norris]

Yes.

[Joni]

And tell us a couple of the miracles that happened.

[Kim Norris]

I prayed for a beautiful little four year old that looked like she was vexed with muscular dystrophy. And her little brother was next to her in a wheelchair and just preached a healing, saving gospel. And then we had the altar time and then people were just praying. And then I watched her. I went over and took her hands and just prayed for her. And she put her head back and she just connected with her faith to God. It was amazing. And next thing I know, she started walking out of that chair. This was anti climactic, really, to the force of the service, corporately. And then she's completely out of that wheelchair now. Little evangelist at recess and told the students, the kids, she just healed me.

[Joni]

Oh, wow. Yes.

[Kim Norris]

Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[Joni]

And we see some of our greatest miracles in places like that.

[Kim Norris]

The desperation.

[Joni]

Yeah. Okay. So, David, let's go back a little bit and talk about growing up. PK but you went through something very difficult.

[David Norris]

I did.

[Joni]

And you didn't tell anybody about it?

[David Norris]

I didn't.

[Joni]

Tell us what happened and how you overcame it to even do what you do today.

[David Norris]

So my parents were great parents, are great parents. He's my best friend, so I'm so thankful for that dynamic. But we struggled. Our family we had no money. Our church, we were on the wrong side of town and barely making it at times, but my dad and mom made it fun. Yet I struggled in school, had a stuttering issue, had a chip on my shoulder. The kindergarten principal, when I was in kindergarten, he spanked me with the paddle. I mean, I just had issues. And then probably about nine years old, a gentleman four years older than me molested me. And I didn't understand what that was at the time. It was really crafty, but that was just breeding anger and resentment. I was into basketball a lot. My grandfather played in the NBA and won the world championship in 1947. My dad was a great basketball player. And so, again, basketball's in our family. And so that helped me.

[Joni]

You liked Larry Bird.

[David Norris]

That's right. I was going to the NBA, but didn't work out for me. And so, you know, basketball helped me, but I was wandering, and my parents were great, but I was struggling and really didn't know the depth of my struggle. Dealt with a little bit of substance abuse in eighth, ninth grade. My basketball coach really helped save me through basketball. And I got saved in 96. But really, after I got saved, I started living for Christ and some of my friends.

[Joni]

Well, tell us how you got saved, because a lot of people watching, they hear that term and they're like, what do you mean you got saved? What did you get saved from?

[David Norris]

I went home myself. Sin and just.

[Joni]

You got saved from that scripture that says, for all have sinned come short of the glory of God, all of us are sinners. That's what we're saying.

[David Norris]

That's right.

[Joni]

And he wants to save you today. Like, he loves you so much. So, okay, so you had all of that baggage, but you went to.

[David Norris]

I went to a church camp with my cousin. I went.

[Joni]

Those church camps are good people.

[David Norris]

They're great parents.

[Joni]

Send your kids parents and your kids because you didn't want to go.

[Mark Jobe]

I didn't want to go.

[David Norris]

In fact, my oldest son had an encounter with God two years ago at a church camp. It feels called to be a pastor, so it's very impactful. But I went for a girl, but I had a horrible attitude. And the first night I started hearing the voice of the Lord speak to me in my spirit, and I was like, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. Had a bad attitude.

[Joni]

You felt the presence of God?

[Kim Norris]

I did.

[David Norris]

I did. And then on Wednesday, they had two hippies lead worship. No shoes and socks on. Their shirts were buttoned way too down. It's a little weird. And they were doing worship, and the Holy Spirit man came in that room, or at least came on me.

[Joni]

And the Lord used those two hips.

[David Norris]

That's right. And I was halfway back, raised my hands, and it was like a conversion moment.

[Joni]

Wow.

[David Norris]

And really, something changed.

[Kim Norris]

Really.

[David Norris]

What was crazy is less than eight hours after that moment, we were at a small college, Indiana. And I didn't know one of my high school friends, who was an amazing basketball player, played basketball at that college and was there for summer workouts. After I got saved the next morning, I woke up and walked to the morning session and happened to cross paths with him. And I did wrong things with him. And so he said, hey, go get some girls. Let's do this. I was like, no. I said, I'm saved, man. I'm not doing that anymore. And what's Sad is about 10 years later, they found him murdered. So really, God intervened in ways that I didn't even understand at the time. And now I see, oh, wow. You know, I was going down a wrong road. But then really, that was 96. And my life totally changed. My dad didn't believe me that I was saved until I got home. And then he saw the difference in me.

[Kim Norris]

Tell me twice. Go ahead.

[Joni]

So what were you thinking? Like, okay, is this going to stick?

[Kim Norris]

Because we had this big before he left for the camp, and then he comes back, said, dad, I gotta talk to you. I thought, okay, Lord, help me endure this conversation. And he said, dad, I got reclaimed. I gave my life back to Christ. And he said, I'm called to preach and I'm coming to help you. And I said, okay, say the whole story again, please. He did, and he lived it. He went after it.

[Joni]

That's awesome. So at some point, you met a beautiful young lady.

[David Norris]

Yeah, Summer and I met her.

[Joni]

We have a picture we'll have to show you. Tell us the story about Summer.

[David Norris]

In 2002, I met her. I was struggling with my hair loss, thinking I was ugly, and I shaved my head. And I met her, not knowing that she prayed privately. If she would marry a white guy, he had to be bald. And after she and I started married.

[Joni]

She's African American, right?

[David Norris]

She is. She is.

[Joni]

And she wanted a bald white guy.

[David Norris]

That's right.

[Mark Jobe]

Okay.

[Joni]

That is amazing.

[Mark Jobe]

God is so good.

[Joni]

It.

[Mark Jobe]

Wow, God.

[David Norris]

Thank you, Jesus.

[Mark Jobe]

I'll be bald.

[David Norris]

Seven lifetimes. We have four kids. And. But really, after we were married, it took probably three to four years into our marriage that I really dealt with the abuse, really got healed, went to counseling, had accountability, went forward in my faith.

[Joni]

And that's important, I think. Don't you think pastors, like people think, you know, counseling, you know, oh, just go to the altar and pray. But God uses Christian counselors, right?

[David Norris]

Yeah. And she was amazing. In fact, she gave me, I still have on my dresser a 3 by 5 card that she wrote. 3. After she heard my story, she gave me three themes in my life. And I was like, oh my God, how did you know that? And it was like an aha moment. So we need people to help us understand ourselves. We need God. We need us to step in and say, God, I'm yours. And we need the right people to help us. And that's pastors, counselors, et cetera, and shining the light.

[Joni]

Because those things that are kept in the dark, they will hold us captive. So it's important to shine the light. I always say that truth, truth always wins.

[David Norris]

That's right.

[Joni]

It's so important that we don't allow truth to be hidden and lies will fall to the ground.

[David Norris]

Amen.

[Joni]

Right. And the lie that you did something or whatever, that was a lie and you had to get through that. So once you got through that and you started transitioning into pastoring the church, your dad was still there, right? Kind of like a rock to help you in the process.

[David Norris]

There's some Sundays where he's in town and it'll be me, summer, my dad, my mom and my mother in law on the front row worshiping God. And I'm like, I had these moments of like, just, just take this in because one day it's not going to be the case. Yes, all three of them are strong. All three of them are involved in our church.

[Joni]

This is perfect. This is perfect. What do you think when you hear him get up and preach?

[Kim Norris]

Ephesians 3:20 said he's able to do. The Lord is above all that we can ask or think.

[Joni]

Exceeding abundantly.

[Kim Norris]

Exceedingly abundantly. Thank you. And David is. He makes me look better than what I am. He's really got the heart for the Lord and for souls.

[Joni]

That's so neat. I love that. I love this story. We're talking about the book. Pass the mic before it drops and when we come back, we'll talk about maybe even those of you that have been blessed in businesses and industry and you're looking to make transition and legacy continues. So stay right there. We'll be right back. Some books deserve to be held, cherished, remembered. This book is more than that. It's a place to meet God. Every verse invites you to slow down, to listen, along with a journal that offers a quiet space for your prayers, your questions, your journey, for moments of stillness, for words that matter. Order your Bible and journal bundle now. So let's talk a little bit about Kim, why you wrote the book, and kind of address people who are watching. Maybe they're not in ministry, but they're. They were trying to transition family. What are the things you look for and what are the things that would be like red flags as to maybe that transition shouldn't happen?

[David Norris]

That's good.

[Kim Norris]

Exactly. You know, I wanted this book, of course, Dave and I wrote together for parents, for business owners, for pastors, because all of us, in a sense, are in transition, aren't we? And we're going from stage to stage in our lives. I think it's really important, though, that we qualify the people, that we sense great potential in their patterns, honestly, their attitudes. And if we think, hey, they'll change later, usually that's a mistake. Do we love everyone? Absolutely. But we're talking about legacy. We're talking about succession. Oh, Robert said years ago, there is no success without a successor.

[Joni]

Yeah, that's so true.

[Kim Norris]

And I think that's very important, who we trust.

[Joni]

And you see that a lot of times as well, where that transitioning person comes in and thinks, well, God's anointing me, and I know better, and I can do this. And it's just a heart condition that's not pleasing to the Lord, isn't it?

[David Norris]

It's not. And I think that for me, as the son, or even if you're not family, the person that's coming into the new position has got to be humble and learn from the person that is giving it. And so I was wanting to learn. I have great leaders in my life.

[Joni]

And there's probably things you didn't necessarily always agree with him about. Right.

[David Norris]

We had thousands of conversations.

[Kim Norris]

And still do.

[Joni]

No, but you respected. Right. And honored. Even though you may not agree, because.

[David Norris]

Even though maybe I have new ideas or I know the latest facts and he doesn't, maybe he knows what he's doing and he knows the main thing. Fads come and go, but what he knows is longevity and wisdom.

[Joni]

And on top of that, he's your father. So not only is he the lead pastor, but the Bible's pretty clear about honoring your parents. Was that important for you to understand as well?

[David Norris]

Yes, it was. And. And I respect my parents. I love them. But I've seen them in private and I've seen them in public. So I've always had a respect for them and the miracles that God is doing now in our church. Oftentimes I think about those days that my mom did praise and worship, and no one was there to help her.

[Sandy Jobe]

Yeah.

[Joni]

Yes.

[David Norris]

And getting her, you know, I mean, she got my sister ready. And my sister's screaming as she's brushing her hair, and I'm wrestling with my brothers, messing up their clothes, and we walk across the little parking lot into the church.

[Joni]

No one knows what she's been through.

[David Norris]

And she gets up there, gets up there, gets up there, probably 50 people and has to bring him into the presence of God. And she just dealt with chaos. And those days helped make these days a reality.

[Joni]

That's right.

[David Norris]

And so I honor that.

[Sandy Jobe]

You saw the blood, sweat, tears, the sacrifice. I have a question. Now that you guys have successfully gone through a transition, is there anything that you would have done differently, or what is the biggest lesson you learned through the process?

[David Norris]

I could share maybe to the second part of that one lesson that I think really stood out to me, that I think was ingenious by my dad, is a lot of people in business or church, they don't change anything until they pass it to the next person and make the new person change everything, and then that new person becomes the bad guy. That's a disaster. So my dad, in private, we would talk about a lot of changes to the church, and he allowed me to help those changes be made through him while he was the pastor.

[Joni]

That's so good.

[David Norris]

So all those changes were done. So by the time I became the pastor, that cultural shift had already happened.

[Joni]

And it was like, a slower process.

[David Norris]

It was very slow.

[Joni]

Did you just, like, overnight put screens up and take everything down?

[Sandy Jobe]

Because transition is scary enough that we did that as well. We had started five years out, and he was like, whatever. Dan was so great. And, you know, I mean, you have to give props, because that's a big deal. You have built this. You have worked it. You have sweat every vision, everything. And then you're just like, okay, I'm handing my baby over. I'm trusting you with this.

[Joni]

Don't drop it.

[Sandy Jobe]

Don't drop it. But to have that was so valuable because when you made that announcement, hey, dad's just changing. He's not leaving the team. He's just changing his position on the team. And guess what? Nothing else is changing because we already changed it. It's a deep breath that comes over everyone because, oh, this is a healthy thing. This is a good thing. Right and then you have. You don't have needless casualties because of confusion.

[David Norris]

So.

[Kim Norris]

Good.

[Joni]

But you're still different in leadership. Oh, 100. Absolutely. I mean, the way that you work alongside Dusty and what you do with the church, what Dusty does, and that's okay. I think that's probably shock enough that you're not going to preach like him or you're not going to lead exactly like him, and that's okay.

[David Norris]

And he gave me the freedom to be myself. Yeah, I'm very thankful for that.

[Joni]

That's great. You know, Cindy, on the other side of this, I was thinking about the sad stories where transition was supposed to happen, and yet there's character flaws, there's sin, there's. I mean, really, it can happen and be what God wants it to be. If you have that going on within a person's heart, it cannot. And I think what you said even earlier, God definitely looks at the heart. And when pride enters a heart, do they feel like that they deserve a position or they deserve this? But there's already sin and then there's pride. God just shut was like, no way. We're out of time. But, David, when a leader sees that you can't allow that to continue, you have to maybe look elsewhere. God may be doing something else and he's showing you that heart. And you need to pay attention and not try to force it. Right?

[David Norris]

Don't force it. Please don't force it. Because the legacy is too precious. And we are to grow faith to faith. And if you can avoid the stumble, avoid the stumble and the transition.

[Joni]

You guys are wonderful examples.

[David Norris]

Yes. Thank you.

[Kim Norris]

Thank you.

[Joni]

Well, this is the book. Pass the mic before it drops. Pastor Kim Norris and David Norris. I love it. Well, we are out of time today, but I want you to remember that God's plans are always generational. Whether you're passing the mic or picking one up, his call is still on your life and he's not finished with you yet. So important to keep your heart right, to stay humble and understand it's not about you that it's about glorifying him. It's about giving him all the glory for everything. When you give all of that to him and give him all the glory, that's when he can really use you. When you understand it's not about you, your position, or what you're entitled to. When you understand you're entitled to nothing without Him. Only when you put him first can God really use you. Well, if you're watching today and you need prayer, maybe you're believing for someone in your family to be saved. Or maybe you don't even know the Lord yourself. You know, the most important thing you could do today is invite Jesus into your heart and just, you know, I say it all the time. My grandfather just said, God, if you're there, I need you. He didn't know what to pray. Some of you don't even know what to pray. But I'm just telling you, the Lord's dealing with you. Feel the presence of God right there where you are. Just open up your heart and say, jesus, you know, whatever these people are talking about, I don't understand it, but I know I need something. And I'm just asking you to come into my heart today. Forgive me. And whatever you can do with me, I'm ready. You will be shocked at what he can do with that prayer. We have prayer partners who are standing by ready to pray with you. They would love to pray with you, encourage you. We don't want anything from you, don't have to leave your name, address, anything. But we would love to send you the book of John, the Gospel of John. It's a great place to start in the Bible. And we're just excited about you praying that prayer again. If you have lost loved ones, call. And we want to pray for those as well. Well, thank you so much, Kim and David, for joining us at the table. Get a copy of their book, find out more about their ministries. You can visit kimnorris.org and davidnorris.org and as always, make sure to follow us on all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes and exclusive content and let us know how Table Talk is touching your life. We love hearing from you. You can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcast, available now on all the major platforms. Thank you so much for watching. That was a lot. That was a long read right there, I'll tell you. Right. We'll see you next time. God bless you. We love you.

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[Joni]

Bye. For today.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

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[Sandy Jobe]

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[Mark Jobe]

I'm Rodney Williams. And I'm Travis Holloway. Welcome to the Wealth Break Podcast, a real conversation about finance. Let's be honest, building wealth doesn't look the same for everyone.

[Sandy Jobe]

I feel like sometimes being broke is a cycle and that we might have.

[Mark Jobe]

To revisit that and we're not stopping at success stories.

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What happens when it doesn't go right? How do you cope with it?

[Joni]

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[Mark Jobe]

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[Kim Norris]

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[Joni]

This is an iHeart podcast.