JONI TABLE TALK - OCTOBER 19TH, 2025

Summary

Joni Table Talk – October 19, 2025

Podcast: Real America’s Voice
Host: Joni Lamb (iHeartPodcasts)
Main Guests: Katharine Mullins Robbins, Pastor Creflo Dollar

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Episode Overview

This episode of Joni Table Talk centers on two major interviews:

1. Katharine Mullins Robbins discusses the importance of discernment, overcoming criticism, healing church division, and her personal struggle with infertility and faith.
2. Pastor Creflo Dollar shares his journey through illness, recovery, approval addiction, and the transformative power of grace over legalism.

The episode explores themes of unity in the church, responding to trials with faith rather than fear, restoring grace, and rejecting toxic criticism and division—both within the church and personally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Choosing Discernment Over Criticism (Starts ~01:58)

Main Participants: Joni Lamb, Katharine Mullins Robbins, April Simons, Rachel Lamb Brown, Rebecca Lamb Weiss

• The prevalence of criticism and judgment within Christian communities, particularly on social media.
• Importance of self-examination before criticizing others:
  • “Sometimes we just got to look in the mirror. ... You know, God gives us discernment and ... that discernment is to pray, not to criticize.” (Joni, 02:30)
• Biblical principle: judge not lest you also be judged.
• The division within the church and the call to unity as essential for revival.
• Acting in accordance with God’s will above social expectations.
• The dangers of gossip, slander, and “broadcasting issues for the world to see,” leading to poor witness.

Quote:

“When did gossip, slander, and backbiting become acceptable speech in the body of Christ? ... Are we tearing apart people's character behind the scenes and on social media platforms? ... We've got to learn to tame our tongues again.”
– Katharine Mullins Robbins [12:55]

Notable Segment

• The Peter & Jesus Encounter: (15:04–19:10)
  • Peter’s good intentions toward Jesus (wanting to stop His suffering) actually led him to oppose God’s plan.
  • “Peter thought he was right, but he was entirely wrong.” (Katharine, 17:19)
  • We often act with “good intentions” that, without discernment, can oppose God’s will.

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2. Resisting Social Media Division and Misplaced “Justice” (18:25–21:30)

• The cultural shift from “innocent until proven guilty” to “guilty until proven innocent,” both in America and in church culture.
• The perils of jumping to conclusions and joining internet “pile-ons.”

Quote:

“We have to make a decision not based on our trauma and based on our past experience ... we don't know all of the facts.”
– Katharine Mullins Robbins [21:13]

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3. Healing Through Disappointment: Katharine’s Infertility Journey (06:12–12:29)

• Katharine details her eight-year struggle with infertility, her miscarriage, and the eventual birth of her son.
• The pain of unanswered prayer, the “Isaac on the altar” moment—letting go of the demand for her own way.
• Reading Job before her miscarriage; responding with “The Lord gives, the Lord takes away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
• A powerful, direct encouragement to listeners not to give up waiting for God’s promises.

Quote:

“To those of you who are contending for the promise, I want to encourage you. Don't give up. God has a plan for your life.”
– Katharine Mullins Robbins [09:10]

Timestamps for this Testimony:

• Infertility struggle: [07:16–08:18]
• Miscarriage & faith: [08:32–11:14]
• Encouragement to listeners: [09:10–10:00]
• Miracle baby born: [11:40–12:03]

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4. Heaven’s Perspective vs. Human Perspective (12:29–19:10)

• The church is in intense internal conflict, much of it exacerbated by demonic influence and social media gossip.
• There is need for “heaven’s perspective” over human opinions, illustrated by the story of Peter rebuking Jesus.
• Disagreement, relational tension, and how Peter’s story is a warning but also hopeful—since, despite failure, Jesus restores Peter by grace, not condemnation.

Quote:

“He doesn’t bring a grudge list, he brings a grace list.”
– Katharine Mullins Robbins [23:58]

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5. Guarding Your Heart Against Gossip and Slander (25:26–27:03)

• Practical advice: “shut off social media,” guard your peace, protect your heart.
• “The Lord really convicted me ... He said, you don’t even know these people ... shut it off and don’t let them influence you.” (Katharine, 26:25)
• Biblical conviction about controlling the tongue (James 1:26).

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6. The Transformative Power of Grace: Creflo Dollar’s Testimony (32:29–60:26)

Main Topics:

• Moving from legalism and striving to a relationship-based, grace-centered faith.
• Sharing openly about life-threatening illness (COVID, blood clots, shingles, cancer return).
• The danger of “approval addiction” and fixing identity in others’ (especially online) approval.
• The temptation to believe hardship is always a result of failure or weak faith.
• Vulnerability and honesty as ministry tools—moving from transactional faith (“if I do this, God will...”) to relational trust.
• Importance of empathy: seeing others’ suffering through grace, not suspicion or criticism.

Notable Quotes & Moments:

• On Grace vs. Rules:

  “I think preachers like to control people, and I think people like to be in control. ... Money is not prosperity. Wholeness is.”
  – Creflo Dollar [35:46]

• On Suffering & Approval Addiction:

  “I’m confronted with a lot of things I didn’t know were there, like approval addiction.”
  – Creflo Dollar [37:58]

• On Vulnerability:

  “Vulnerability could be the most powerful ministry tool for today because we have been so afraid to be vulnerable.”
  – Creflo Dollar [49:35]

• On Resting in God’s Finished Work:

  “Do you actually think that I’m making these declarations just to see results? ... I’m making these declarations because I believe it.”
  – Creflo Dollar [48:44]

• On Questioning vs. Asking God:

  “There’s a difference between asking God a question and questioning. ... He wants us to be intelligent and to use our mind and to think and ask him questions.”
  – Creflo Dollar [55:06]

Practical Wisdom from the Conversation:

• Let go of approval-seeking, especially from the ever-critical internet.
• Don’t attribute every trial to personal failure; suffering can have a divine purpose.
• Harvest “wilderness wisdom” from hardship and bring it with you into future seasons.
• Faith is not denying reality but trusting God in the midst of it.
• Emotional honesty is biblical; God can handle our real questions and pain.

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7. Closing & Encouragement

• Both interview segments end with a pastoral invitation to trust Jesus, receive grace, and rest in God’s finished work.
• Viewers struggling with faith, life challenges, or illness are encouraged to call in for prayer.

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Notable Quotes (With Timestamps)

• On Discernment Over Criticism:
  “God gives us discernment and I think that's ... to pray, not to criticize.”
  – Joni Lamb [02:30]

• On Restoring Unity:
  “I don't think revival or reconciliation can happen without [unity].”
  – Joni Lamb [03:53]

• On Brokenness and Waiting:
  “If this never happens, am I still going to worship? ...Am I owed a child? … I have to trust the Lord with this.”
  – Katharine Mullins Robbins [10:44–11:14]

• On Good Intentions vs. Heaven’s Perspective:
  “Peter had great intentions ... but his intentions weren’t good enough. ... What spirit in this season am I operating in?”
  – Katharine Mullins Robbins [15:53–17:19]

• On Gossip:
  “Somebody has to say that we've got to learn to tame our tongues again.”
  – Katharine Mullins Robbins [12:55]

• On Approval Addiction:
  “We cannot help God when we are addicted to approval.”
  – Creflo Dollar [45:44]

• On Vulnerability:
  “Vulnerability could be the most powerful ministry tool for today.”
  – Creflo Dollar [49:35]

• On Resting in Christ:
  “Now you’re going to have to choose to live in the realm of the finished … or by circumstances and emotions.”
  – Creflo Dollar [47:47]

• On God’s Grace:
  “The cross is so much bigger. ... The Lord’s wanting to meet with you today ... He’s bringing a grace list.”
  – Katharine Mullins Robbins [23:58]

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Memorable Moments

• Katharine’s decree over listeners to not give up on God’s promises [09:10–10:00]
• Discussion of Peter’s restoration by Jesus (“He brings a grace list”) [23:58]
• Creflo Dollar’s confession of weaknesses, illness, wrestling with God, and how faith is not about denial but trust and rest [37:58–55:55]
• The practical advice to “shut off social media” to protect your peace [26:25]
• Powerful musical finish with “Sing Like the Battle is Over” [28:33–29:46]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Description | Start | End | |---------|-------------|-------|-----| | Discernment vs. Criticism | Joni and guests discuss criticism, self-examination, unity | 01:58 | 05:55 | | Katharine’s Infertility Journey | Katharine recounts her faith journey and struggle with infertility | 06:12 | 12:29 | | Division and Social Media | Church division, toxic criticism online, Peter/Jesus story | 12:29 | 21:41 | | Grace Over Legalism (Creflo) | Creflo Dollar on grace, illness, and faith journeys | 32:29 | 60:26 |

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Conclusion

This episode of Joni Table Talk weaves together personal testimonies, biblical insights, and practical encouragements for Christians navigating a culture of criticism, church division, personal disappointment, and the pressures of legalism. It calls listeners to live from a place of grace, relational faith, emotional honesty, and discernment—choosing unity, taming the tongue, and trusting in God’s finished work above all.

The episode is uplifting, vulnerable, and practical—equipping listeners to navigate difficult seasons with faith, wisdom, and love.

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Resources & Further Info:

• Learn more about Katharine Mullins Robbins: katharinemullins.com
• Dr. Creflo Dollar’s ministry & book: worldchangers.org
• For prayer: Call the prayer line (as offered on the episode)
• The Joni Table Talk Podcast: Available on all major platforms

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Transcript

[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

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[Joni Lamb]

So it's easy to point out what's wrong in others, but the real test is recognizing our own issues. Today's guest is here to bring a powerful reminder that good intentions aren't enough. We must be led by the spirit of God, choosing discernment over criticism. But before we get to that, join me around the table is one of the greatest encouragers I know, April Simons. Oh, you're too sweet. I love that.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I love that we're talking about this. You know, the world has enough critics. We need to be a voice of hope. And we also. I love that we're going to talk about looking inward because we can't heal.

[Joni Lamb]

If we don't deal right. Sometimes we just got to look in the mirror. And we do. We're pointing a finger, but we have all these pointing back. Exactly. And you know, God gives us discernment and I think that's when we see something wrong with others. That discernment is to pray, not to criticize. Right? Right. And you know, we see so much of the church divided today that going on. Rachel Lamb Brown, welcome.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

You know, there's so much that's going on in our. So much division. But also, I think people don't realize the same measure that they judge. God will judge them. And so we want to just not be critical all the time, but, you know, be hopeful and bless people, pray for people when they're going through things.

[Joni Lamb]

That's good. That's good.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I love our guest today. She did a great sermon about this.

[Joni Lamb]

I know we're going to be talking about that. Rebecca Lamb Weiss. Welcome. Hello. How are you?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I also feel taller than you.

[Joni Lamb]

You do? I don't think you are. Nola. No. We look so symmetrical. We are symmetrical. What about this? This is important, really, that we have discernment this day and this hour.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah. You know, I just think that we need to look at people through the eyes of Christ.

[Joni Lamb]

You know, the apostle Paul says it's.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

The love of Christ that compels us.

[Joni Lamb]

To preach the gospel. And if you're not coming from a place of love, your heart's not aligned with the Lord's.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And so, you know, we do all things in love, and without love, we're.

[Joni Lamb]

Just a Klingon symbol. We're nothing helpful or useful in the kingdom. That's right.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So we have to have discernment.

[Joni Lamb]

We have to do everything from a place of love. That's true, Dorothy. And we've got to really pray for unity in the body of Christ. Absolutely. I don't think revival or reconciliation can happen without that. No, no. You know, that's the only way it can happen. And as Christians, you know, we have to do our part. And sometimes our part doesn't look like what the world thinks it should. But regardless, we have to act in accordance to God's will. And we're Holy Spirit led, so that's more important than anything. Okay. Well, she's a prec. Prophetic worship leader, a voice of this generation and a pastor. Please welcome Katharine Mullins Robbins. Hello. Hi, Kitty. How are you? I'm good.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

How are you ladies?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

I'm good.

[Joni Lamb]

We're good. We're good. Welcome to the table.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I'm so excited to be here with all of these beautiful women with so much wisdom.

[Joni Lamb]

We're excited to have you.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Well, you fit right in.

[Joni Lamb]

You look like you're just an extension of us.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I hope so. I'm very excited.

[Joni Lamb]

For sure, we look forward to hearing what you have to say. But what if you're testing season? Is actually God forming his purpose in you? Well, Katharine knows this firsthand, and she's here to share about learning to follow God's voice above all else. I want to touch on your motherhood and faith journey first, but I want to, after we get through that, really get to what we were talking about earlier. And that is heaven's perspective versus good intentions. I want you to get into that was so good. But there may be someone watching right now that you are believing God for something, and it just hasn't happened. And we just want to encourage you today with Kathryn's testimony, whatever that is, I don't want you to lose hope. I want you to continue to stand and believe. If God's put something in your heart and it hasn't happened, we're going to believe with you today. Okay? So stay right there. Get your cup of coffee, cup of hot tea, iced tea, whatever season it is around the world that you're watching this, and maybe a glass of water, I don't know. But kind of the short version, kind of like my story. Grew up in a Christian home. Great parents, loved God at an early age. Surrendered your heart to the Lord. We never really had the Egypt experience. Like, you talk about going off road or, you know, away from God and called into ministry. Got married.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Girl, you just heard the whole story.

[Joni Lamb]

Tell me more.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I love it.

[Joni Lamb]

Since she's got so much to share, I want to make sure and get everything to tell us about meeting the love of your life. Yes.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

David Robbins. He is.

[Joni Lamb]

Got a good name.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I know. I love it. He's so good. He's a pastor. He takes such good care of our family. He's really funny. And he loves the Lord. So that combination right there. Hard worker, first and foremost, loves the Lord, but a hard worker, and then he's humorous. So that's what we all want, you know?

[Joni Lamb]

And he's cute.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes. So handsome. I love him.

[Joni Lamb]

So your mom and dad, they were thrilled with that choice?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes. They honestly, I kind of listened to them. They were like, hey, what about this guy? And it's like, listen to some people who. Who know what they're talking about.

[Joni Lamb]

That's a good word for you kids out there. Your mom and dad, they kind of know this. You know, one of the things that I believe is that parents may not always know who is right, but they do know who's wrong.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

That's it.

[Joni Lamb]

That's it.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Oh, and they can spot the wrong.

[Joni Lamb]

They can. We sure can. We know who's wrong. That's for sure. We get to pray in heart over. That's Right. Okay. So you were married about a year, and you decide what.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

We wanted to have kids, obviously. And so we started believing the Lord for that and trying. And if you would have told me that I would be somebody who struggled with infertility, little Catherine, you know, I would say, no, that's never going to be an issue.

[Joni Lamb]

I'm healthy.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I'm healthy. I work out. Probably should work out more than I do, but. And, yeah. And so all of a sudden, we've been trying for a while, and I'm not getting pregnant. So we finally get to a point, we say, well, we probably need to go see a doctor and just see if they can at least identify the issue. So we know how to pray and how to fight. And if I need to change something naturally. And we go to see the doctor and they say, we can't find anything wrong. And it's so hard, because that's crazy. Yeah. You want an answer? And, I mean, all of the tests came back clear, and we were, you know, nothing was working.

[Joni Lamb]

Wow, that's wild.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And sometimes that can feel even more defeating because it's like if you just knew you could have a solution to how to fix things, maybe just not knowing. And I'm a fixer, so it really went against my nature to not be able to fix the situation.

[Joni Lamb]

And so let's just talk about what happened then. So one year, two year, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. Wow. Eight years. And then what happens?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So at the eight and a half year mark, I get pregnant, but I have a miscarriage. That must have been so hard. Yeah. I remember even telling one of my friends, we were at a ramp event with Karen Wheaton, and I was telling one of my friends, I said, you know, I'm late. I don't think I'm pregnant because I'd had so many disappointments, you know, And I come back, I'm pregnant.

[Joni Lamb]

And you're so excited. You think, this is it.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Over the moon, excited. This is my promise. This is the thing that I've contended for, believed for. And how many other people have experienced those moments in different situations that they're dealing with in their life? You know, it's like this is the breakthrough and then a total drop.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah. Talk to them right now, Kathryn. Talk to those people for just a second.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

To those of you who are contending for the promise, I want to encourage you. Don't give up. God has a plan for your life. He already. It says in the Bible that he wrote a book about you. He wrote a story about you, every day of your life has already been ordained. He has a good ending for you in mind, and he has a good ending to the story, the storm, the season that you're facing. And so I just want to decree over you in Jesus name that no weapon formed against you in this season is going to prosper. I want to decree over you that in this season that faith is rising and it's pushing back unbelief, it's pushing back the turmoil of your thoughts, that the enemy has really just been trying to plague you with that saying, you know, it's never going to happen. The Lord isn't going to be faithful to you in this season. The Lord isn't going to do what he said he was going to do. I want to decree over you in Jesus name. It's going to happen. Don't you dare give up. In Jesus name.

[Joni Lamb]

Amen. That's for you. You know, and it's not necessarily that you're believing for a baby. It might be that, but there's something, there are other things that you're believing for. And God is saying, I put that in your heart. Don't faint. It's coming. Okay, so, okay, you have a miscarriage and what great disappointment.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes.

[Joni Lamb]

Of course we know that life begins at conception. Yes. So that baby is with the Lord worshiping in heaven. You really felt like it was what, a girl and so you actually gave her a name? Yes.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Marie Elizabeth.

[Joni Lamb]

Marie.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Elizabeth Marie means wished for child.

[Joni Lamb]

Oh, love that. I love that. So, okay, so then are you thinking, is it going to take another eight years? What happened?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah. And you just don't know at this point, it's Isaac's on the altar and I really had to get to a point. And this is hard. I feel like we all struggle with this of if this. Am I still going to worship if this never happens? Is God still who he says he is and is he still worthy? And so I had to get to that conclusion, point of it doesn't matter. And to even say I'm not actually owed a child, that's a hard word to come to. Yes, we have promises and we can contend, but at the end of the day, I have to trust the Lord with this and believe.

[Joni Lamb]

You said you had been reading the Book of Job right before you had the miscarriage.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes, the week before the miscarriage, I read it. And so when I was in the er, the nurse just came and said, you have had a miscarriage. And out of my mouth it just said, the Lord gives. The Lord takes away Blessed be the name of the Lord. And that's the reality. God wants to get us to a point where the fire doesn't move us, the storm doesn't move us.

[Joni Lamb]

Right, Exactly. Okay, so then what happens?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So I heal up, and I find out very soon after that I'm pregnant with our miracle baby.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Who is now four and a half months old.

[Joni Lamb]

Oh, that is so good.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And his name is Hayden Ray Robbins.

[Joni Lamb]

Okay. And he's doing great.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

He's amazing. He's healthy. He's laughing. And I just. I love this season. I'm just so thankful for a season of fulfilled promise.

[Joni Lamb]

So good. So good. Well, I don't know who you are, but you hold onto that word that Kathryn shared. And I really want to get into what a great story. So I know we show pictures of that little one right there. There, you see? Oh, my goodness. So adorable. Okay, so heaven's perspective versus good intentions. That was quite a timely message that you preached. Talk a little bit. What was that? And how did God give you that?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So, as you know, the turmoil in the body of Christ is extreme. You know, I've traveled in ministry now. I don't even want to say as long, but 17 years, which is a good amount of time, I feel like at this point. And I have never seen this type of turmoil in the body of Christ. That, of course, is exacerbated by some demonic influence in a massive way.

[Joni Lamb]

Karen Wheaton and I are texting back and forth. She's like, I'm praying for you. I'm like, I'm praying for you. It's like we'd never seen such an attack.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Never before. We were all praying for both of you. So, yes. And I just. I had this pause moment because I want to thank God that real sin is being revealed in the body of Christ, because we need that to come to the surface, and we need exposure of that, but we need it handled in a biblical way. And so at the same time of seeing this real sin handled in the right way biblically, we've seen this intense attack of gossip, slander, and backbiting. And it's like, if we're honest, all of a sudden, we're looking at social media and just what people are saying behind the scenes, just about anyone. It doesn't matter. I'm just shocked. And I finally got to this point, and I just said, and this is. Well, this is the thing that gets me. If you would have told me years ago that we would be seeing seasoned, what I would call seasoned, mature Christians, behaving the way that they're behaving, I would have said, there's absolutely no way. It's never going to happen. And yet we see people who have been godly for years all of a sudden acting outside of their normal godly character. It's happening all over the world. And because of social media, we're seeing it. And so I've been asking the question, when did gossip, slander, and backbiting become acceptable speech in the body of Christ? You know, and it's like we have these mask vigilantes now. And I'll be honest, okay, so I'm a pastor's kid. I don't like getting. I like to say maybe intense things, you know, if, you know, obviously I like to stand for truth, but I didn't want to wade through these waters. But I've just had enough. To be honest with you. Somebody has to say that we've got to learn to tame our tongues again. And it's the question of, are we tearing apart people's character behind the scenes and on social media platforms? And when did we feel justified to speak the language of what I believe is demons and call it Christianity or call it justice? And we have to get back to biblical truth again. And how are we created? And one of you guys said this earlier. How are we called to treat the Christ that is on the inside of people and taking them on a journey to look more like Jesus?

[Joni Lamb]

How are we treating and discernment? How important is that part in it?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

It's huge. And so I want to. Can I set the stage a little bit with this? Okay, so analyzing a conversation that I believe is really relevant with Jesus, between Jesus and a friend, one of his best friends, Peter. So we have this. This picture where Jesus has just prophesied his future to at least some, if not all of the disciples. We hear that In Matthew chapter 16, he says, you know, I'm gonna go to the cross, I'm gonna die, and I'm gonna come back to life. It doesn't really leave much room for interpretation, for confusion. But the disciples just didn't get it. His best friends didn't get it. We need to. We need to pause there. His best friends did not understand. And so at this moment, Peter has human perspective and Jesus has heaven's perspective. And we've gotta understand and remember. I know we understand it, but we've gotta come to a resol. When human perspective is at war with heaven's perspective. Heaven's perspective needs to win every single time. And we also have to understand there are going to be times when God calls us to do certain things that our friends are just not going to get it. Yeah, people, loved ones, people close to us, and that's okay. They don't have to get it. God didn't speak to them. They spoke to them.

[Joni Lamb]

And Jesus said that would happen to us?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Absolutely.

[Joni Lamb]

He said there would be family that would turn against you. He said that, you know, there would be son and daughter and mother and, you know. And he told us it would happen.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes, absolutely.

[Joni Lamb]

We don't want it to happen, but he said it would.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

None of us want that to happen. Exactly. That's it. And so after Jesus prophesied his death, what's about to happen to him? This is what Peter says. But Peter took him aside and this is Matthew 16:21 or 22. But Peter took him aside and began to reprimand him for saying such things. Can you imagine having the audacity, imagine that, to reprimand the Son of God? And he says, heaven forbid, Lord, this will never happen to you. And Jesus's response, he says in verse 23, turns to Peter and he says, get away from me, Satan. You're a dangerous trap to me. For you're seeing things merely from a human point of view and not from God's point of view. So we have this relationship. They're best friends. Peter has great intentions. And this is where I feel like we're at with the church right now, because we have so many strong opinions. Peter was a very strong, strongly opinionated person. He has good intentions. We know he deeply loves Jesus. He's actually coming against Jesus because he wants what's best for Jesus. But even with the good intentions, we have to be honest, his good intentions were not good enough. And so we have this moment where he's rebuked by Jesus. And so that shows us that he's actually operating in the wrong spirit. So what that tells me is I can be a Christian who loves Jesus, I can be a Christian who walks with Jesus. But the question is, what spirit in this season am I operating in? And scholars connect this moment in Peter's life with the same spirit that tempted Jesus in the desert. And so it's so convicting to me. It's like, I have good intentions, but am I sidetracking the kingdom with my potentially intensely critical nature? You know, Peter thought he was right, but he was entirely wrong.

[Joni Lamb]

That's powerful. Do you think a lot of it is how we spend our time today's society with social media? I mean, we're spending a lot more time on that instead of in the word. And what you put in is going to come out or watching things from people that know nothing about situations they're talking to, who have anointed themselves to do so.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah, it's misplaced justice, and I'm just gonna go there because I feel led to. So obviously, you know, innocent until proven guilty. Innocent until proven guilty is a governmental reality in America, but it's also very biblical. And now it's really switched in today's culture, especially in church settings, that. That we say, you're guilty, prove your innocence.

[Joni Lamb]

That's right.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And it's not biblical. There's nowhere in scripture that God calls us to hand conflict and accusation that way. And then to get to the point where we're broadcasting these issues for the world to see, it's not a good reflection of Christ.

[Joni Lamb]

What is it doing to the church, and how does it make the church look in the body of Christ?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Absolutely.

[Joni Lamb]

People are doing that. I mean, to the world. Who wants to be a part of something like that? You know, we just had someone here last week, a prophetic voice that gave a word to us, and it was so good. And he said, you have reaped fruit in a field that you didn't sow in.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Wow.

[Joni Lamb]

Wow. That's powerful. He said, but God is about to turn that, and you're going to reap fruit from the field you have sown in.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Wow.

[Joni Lamb]

So sometimes people just get piled in altogether. Oh, well, they must have done that or this or that or the other, you know, and you've got, you know, lies and false accusations, and you're reaping in a field that you really had nothing to do with. But because you're, you know, in the same genre or because you're in ministry, then you just get thrown in there when in reality, you had nothing to do with that field. And so I thought that was such a great word that eventually God is a God of justice and you will reap in the field that you've sown in. So it's important that even as you're being criticized or people are making false allegations or talking about you, don't get into that mishmash with them. Rise above it. I mean, Shawn Void, he told me, he said, punch up, don't touch down, punch up, but pray and love and forgive and don't give attention to it. Stay focused on what God's called you to do. How important is that?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

It's very important. And I think a lot of us we recognize that there's trauma in the body of Christ, and that's very real. And there's hurt. There is hurt from people's past. There's hurt right now in a lot of people's present. And we, as Christians, I think we could all agree that we have to make a decision not based on our trauma and based on our past experience and viewing things from our past trauma and our past experience. And that's what people have. A lot of times they do is they say, well, I know the situation. This situation sounds familiar, but we don't know all of the facts.

[Joni Lamb]

There's like a trigger because something happened to them. So they jump in, like in the wood pile and say, oh, that must be true. This happened to me. But let's talk about where Peter ended up.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So I love this. So he's rebuked, obviously.

[Joni Lamb]

Wonder what he thought at that moment. Could you imagine somebody saying that to you?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And, yeah, the Son of God. And then. But what I love about this verse is there is relational tension. And they remain friends. They worked it out, and that's a really big deal. We obviously know Peter was hard on others from this conversation, and this is just my opinion, but a lot of times when people are hard on others, they tend to be hard on themselves. And so we have this picture of Peter. He's told Jesus, his best friend, whatever happens to you, no matter what, I'm with you to the end. I'll go and I'll die with you. That's what all of us want to hear, but we like the follow through, you know? And, you know, I feel like I see so much Peter in me. So this is very convicting with all of us.

[Joni Lamb]

I think we all have some of you.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And that's the prayer is God, get Peter out of me so Christ can be formed in me and a work can be done through me, you know, that's it. So he promises Jesus the moon. Obviously, we know the story that he doesn't deliver. Jesus says, you're gonna deny me three times. It happens. He denies him so vehemently that he uses inappropriate language to get the coin across.

[Joni Lamb]

Peter cussed, come on, Peter.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And there's different ways to view this, but he goes all the way to the point of back to fishing. And I look at that, and I think he kind of backslid. He went back to what he did.

[Joni Lamb]

Back to the world.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah. And he took some disciples with him. They all went fishing together. And so we have this picture in John, I believe it's 21 and this is the Catherine version of it. But Jesus is just over there. He's been resurrected now, and he just starts to wave at these disciples. And he's already said at one point, hey, go tell the disciples. And Peter, you know, so he's already made a point to say, hey, Peter, it's gonna be okay. I'm calling you back. You know? And so the disciples see him. They come back. Jesus has built a fire, and I love it. He's just cooking fish by the fire, and he sits them all down. And if I was Jesus at this point, I'd be bringing my grudge list. I mean, that's just it. I'd have to work through some bitterness, some unforgiveness, and I would just need to tell these people, do you know how you treated me? You know? Do you know, like, how much this hurt me?

[Joni Lamb]

Did you Hear that Rooster Crow 3?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I was right. You were wrong.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And yet Jesus doesn't do any of that. He doesn't bring a grudge list. He brings a grace list. And so this person that hurt him, he just sits him down by the fire and he makes eye contact. He doesn't even bring up all of his issues. And he just says, hey, Peter, do you love me? And I think sometimes we get so hard on ourselves and our journeys, and we met, we make mistakes. Or maybe we're the one who gossiped. Maybe we're the one who slandered. Because again, there's Peter in all of us. Maybe we were the one that was critical about the move of God. I know I've been very convicted about that in this season to guard my mouth, but he just looks at him, he doesn't bring all that up. And he just says, do you love me? Feed my sheep. And just in that instant instance, he is brought back into the fold and he's reinstated into his calling. And I would just say to the people who are watching, if you feel like you've done something to disqualify you, I just want to say the cross is so much bigger. The grace of God is so much stronger, and the Lord's wanting to meet with you today. And he's not bringing a grudge list like so many of us would do. He's bringing a grace list. And I just decree over you that he's reinstating you in this season. How do we as Christians not engage in all of this? Because it's so much. And I feel like it's everywhere, and it's just all consuming at times. And it's easy. Our natural inclination is to want to know and to look and to watch and to listen. But like, what does that do to us?

[Joni Lamb]

The Lord told me, don't look at any of that stuff. Yes, I don't look at any of it. Everybody thinks you look at it because if they talk about you, like I don't look at any of it.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I mean, I think that's really what it is, is we sometimes just have to say, shut social media off. And so I was the last month of my pregnancy when a lot of some things were breaking out and I got on social media and I think you and I were talking about this and I just, I saw all these things, just people were posting, posting, posting and I was just like, you get tempted to click and then you think, well, maybe something bad is happening and I need to know. And I think this is where discernment comes in. And one the Lord told me, guard my peace. And obviously, you know, the Bible tells us that gossip is like choice morsels. It goes deep down into our inner parts. You know, it also says this in James 1:26. It says that if we think that we're religious but we can't get a reign on our tongue. It says that we've actually deceived ourselves and our religion is worthless. And so it's very convicting.

[Joni Lamb]

It is.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And so I think turning it off is a big thing. But I remember going to click on something a few months ago because I thought, I need to know. I need to, you know, I need to know, make sure. And the Lord really convicted me and he said, you don't even know these people. You don't really, this has nothing to do with you. And he just said, shut it off and don't let them influence you. That's it. And one of my friends tried to bring it up and again, they're good intention, you know, we're trying to preserve the body of Christ. And I just said, I don't know these people. This is not my story, this is not my show, not my circus, you know, I don't need to know any of this, you know. And it's making a decision to guard our eyes and guard our hearts and what we're putting in us.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah. And God knows what's down the road as to why he sometimes protects us from some of those things and doors that will open and opportunities, you know. So I appreciate that, I appreciate that attitude. Well, we're out of time. So good you'll come back and be with us and preach a Little more.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I love it. I love it.

[Joni Lamb]

But I want you to remember to choose carefully the voices you listen to and agree with. God invites you to see through his eyes and keep your heart tender. Stay close to the Holy Spirit instead of and speak life to those around you, especially those who are hurting. If you're watching today and you need prayer or you haven't asked Jesus to come into your heart, it's so easy just to say, jesus, I need you. I always tell people the onus is not on me to prove who he is. You say, well, I don't really know if I believe it or not. Well, just I challenge you. Open your heart and say, God, if you are who they say you are, will you reveal yourself to me? And he will. Okay. And so. But it's just as easy saying, jesus, I love you. Forgive me. Come into my heart. Boom, he's there. We have prayer partners that are standing by. We love to pray with you. That's why that number's on the screen. So call that number. But I do want to thank Kathryn for joining us. To find out more about her ministry, visit katharinemullins.com and as always, make sure to follow us on all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for episodes exclusive content. Let us know how Table Talk is touching your life because we love hearing from you. You can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcast, available now on all major platforms. Well, to close this out, Katharine is bringing a powerful reminder for every season with her song.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yes.

[Joni Lamb]

She's an amazing singer. I love this song. She's anointed, and as she sings this, you're going to feel the presence of the Lord. Some of you need to sing this song. It's called Sing like the Battle is Over. You might be right in the middle of the battle. There's something about worshiping God right in the middle of the battle. That's what this song talks about. Thank you so much for watching, and we'll see you next time. Bye.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Bye. For today, there's a praise that breaks the silence A sound that slays the giants A voice that breaks down every prison door.

[Joni Lamb]

When we lift up our.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Voices praises go before us for we know the the battle is the Lord. So I'm gonna sing like the battle is over I'm gonna dance like the war is won Every prison door swing open wide the king is overcome I'm.

[Joni Lamb]

Gonna sing like the battle is over.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I'm gonna dance like the war is one Every prison doors swing open wide.

[Joni Lamb]

The king circum I know I know.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Okay, give it a try.

[Joni Lamb]

@Mintmobile.Com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. Cementmobile.com what I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Nine times out of ten they called.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Me a masochist, rolled their eyes or.

[Joni Lamb]

Just asked why Benghazi?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

The truth became a web of lies. It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Joni Lamb]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Bad faith, political warfare and frankly, bullshit. We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Benghazi is a Rosetta stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years. I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Joni Lamb]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yes, that's right. Lock her up.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joni Lamb]

Well, what if everything you've been striving to earn was already fully provided? Well, today's guest is here to reveal how to break free from legalism and step into a life of rest and peace and grace. Going to be sharing a powerful revelation from his new book, the Transformative Power of Grace. He's going to share his personal story. So you want to be sharing. Stay tuned. But before we get to that, joining around the table is April Simons. How are you?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I'm doing great and I love it's. Not about rules.

[Joni Lamb]

It's about relationship.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And I love our guest today. Been a family friend forever and my.

[Joni Lamb]

First time, I think, meeting him, but love it. Dorothy Newton, how are you? I am doing so good.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Really good.

[Joni Lamb]

Yes. We love like testimonies, don't we? Authentic testimonies. God's testament of his glory is just unbelievable. What he's done, what he can do. So I've heard a lot about our guests and I'm excited because his ministry has really helped a lot of people for sure. Rachel Lamb Brown, how are you?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

I'm good, man. You never know what somebody's walked through, huh? You just see them on stage and preaching and encouraging and pouring out, never knowing the battles that they're facing.

[Joni Lamb]

It's true. It's so true.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

And it gives you courage and hope to know that God can bring you to the other side and he always will.

[Joni Lamb]

That's right. We need to hear that, don't we?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

That's right.

[Joni Lamb]

Cindy Johnson, how are you?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Hey. I am good.

[Joni Lamb]

So excited about our guest today.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

What a legendary minister of the gospel.

[Joni Lamb]

Even though he's still young. Yes.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Well, you can be 30 and still be a legend.

[Joni Lamb]

That's right. But I'm excited to hear what he.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Has to share today.

[Joni Lamb]

Well, Dr. Creflo Dollar, welcome to the table.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Thank you. I'm glad to finally be at the table.

[Joni Lamb]

I'm so glad you're here. I'm so glad you're here. Well, you know, if you're tired of striving, it's time to step into the truth that God has already given us everything we need. And Creflo Dollar is a pastor and best selling author who walked through a season of pain and actually illness, almost like a modern day job. And he's here to share how the power of grace carried him through. So first off, I want to say thank you for being here.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

You're welcome.

[Joni Lamb]

And have enjoyed your teaching ministry for so many years. You're just a great teacher of the word of God. I mean, you break it down where you can understand it. Like sometimes you hear people preach and you're like, okay, I don't know that I understand all that. But you really take time to try to explain it in a way. And Jesus was like that, wasn't he? Okay, so take us through. Of course you pastor a great church in Atlanta, preached for 30 plus years, maybe more. We won't tell everything, but tell us about this last season from say 2020 to 2023.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

I'm in the midst of really understanding Grace and understanding how amazing a personal relationship with Jesus is and understanding the finished works of Jesus.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

I mean, he on the cross said, it's finished. And I'm like, well, what's finished? You know, I want to know what's finished.

[Joni Lamb]

You've had great success in years at a huge church. You're like, you have been in the ministry for a long time when you're thinking these things.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people ask, well, why is it that it still appeared like you were successful teaching rules and under the law versus now that you're teaching the gospel and under grace? And I think people kind of like being in control of their own situation and destiny and being able to do something, to earn something, Being able to have a transactional relationship with God was a whole lot easier than it's finished. And I need to align myself up with what's already finished and just continue to work on my intimacy and my relationship with God. You know, I think preachers like to control people, and I think people like to be in control. And so that could be one of the reasons why it appears to be successful. But, you know, when you talk about prosperity or success, money is not prosperity. Wholeness is. You want to be whole in every area. That's what makes you successful.

[Joni Lamb]

That's like the woman with the issue of blood.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Exactly.

[Joni Lamb]

She was whole.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

She was whole.

[Joni Lamb]

So every area of our life, every area, that's prosperity.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

That's prosperity. I mean, you can have money and be dying of cancer. You're just a sick man with money, you know, but you have to have all of it. All the slices of the pie need to be available to do that. So I'm teaching this, and I'm convinced of the finished works of Jesus Christ. I'm convinced that I don't have to earn my healing. Jesus did that for me. I need to just receive what he's done for me. And then my expression goes from that place, okay, Father, thank you that I'm well. Thank you that I'm healed. Thank you for what your blood has done in the midst of this. And Covid's almost over. I get Covid, and I'm confronted with a lot of things that I really didn't know was there, like, approval addiction. What are they going to say? Will they maybe think that I did something wrong in order to get this, oh, man of faith, where is your faith? Or your faith is weak? And I'm thinking, where is all this coming from? And so I go through the process of COVID and I Go through the process like this. All right, this is how you started. I'm healed. I believe I received that, but I thought it was maybe gonna be a couple of week journey. And how long will you say that you're healed? How long will you rest in the finished works of Jesus Christ?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Not seeing it.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. Not seeing it right away. And will you get an understanding of laboring? Because that's a very interesting scripture, you know, labor to rest. And I find out that laboring to rest simply means. It's kind of like when a storm comes and knocks your dish offline, and you don't get the channels on the inside. It's a matter of getting up and just readjusting your dish. And so the labor part is trusting and aligning myself with what's already finished.

[Joni Lamb]

And think it not strange.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joni Lamb]

This fiery truth.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Why do we do that? Why do we think it's strange when we. When we go through things? When he said, they that live godly shall suffer persecution. And so this thing hits my body, and I'm. I'm standing on the word. And throughout that process, you know, the Lord's revealing things like John, chapter nine, who did sin? That this boy was born blind? Nobody. But that my glory might be seen. So I'm becoming empathetic that when I see people go through stuff, don't be so quick to think they did something wrong to deserve this. God may be preparing them for his glory to be seen. And so I get through this, and then all of a sudden, the blood clots begin to surround my lungs. And I'm thinking, well, I'm healed. And. And then I look in the mirror, and I'm 152 pounds and I'm healed.

[Joni Lamb]

Shrinking.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Could you breathe? Could you breathe?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. I had a friend of mine who's also my doctor, we walked through the process, and I had certain treatments that I would, you know, do.

[Joni Lamb]

And you got through the COVID and the blood clots, and you're working way through that, and you're thinking, okay, get through this. Victory on the other side.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Victory on the other side. I got through that, and shingles was on the other side. And it was a perfect pattern from my spine onto my arm to my.

[Joni Lamb]

Sternum, which people that are watching that have had family members or know anything about it, it's very, very painful. I'm. I'm sure you probably weren't even prepared for that.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

I wasn't prepared for it.

[Joni Lamb]

It was like, man of God.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. Every. Every 38 seconds, there was a pain that would shoot to my brain, would almost knock me out. And I'm thinking, how am I going to bear this, to do this? And so, Father, I thank you that I'm healed. And you talk about your grace being sufficient. I need to know if it's sufficient for me. So, Holy Spirit, show me. Show me. I need to know this if I'm going to preach this, I need to know that it's sufficient for me. And it was. I mean, to just look at the boils. I'm like, oh, my. How is this going to go away? And the pain and even it left some nerve damage. And I had to continue to believe. And so we get through that.

[Joni Lamb]

So that was like a three month, four month.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

That was the most painful thing I've ever experienced before in my life. To the point where I asked God, are we okay? You know, I'm moving from I am healed to are we okay? I'm moving from I am healed to the temptation to say, did I do anything wrong? What am I doing? I am now questioning my identity. It's the same thing when Jesus showed up in the wilderness. He says, if you, the son of God, turn these stones into bread. And Jesus is like, wait a minute, I know who I am. I'm not going to turn stone into bread just to, you know, prove something to you. And I'm looking at this whole thing happening. And after the shingles was up, I go to get a checkup, and he says, the cancer's back now. That was my second bout with cancer. The cancer is back. And so it's just like, boom, boom, boom. Like, it was like.

[Joni Lamb]

And it was personal.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

It was very personal.

[Joni Lamb]

I mean, this is your body.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Well, this is my body. This is my husband to my wife, my father to my children, my pastor to my church. This was. Now I'm excited about seeing heaven. But not now. Not now. And so we. We started. Now, this. This process was a little different because I was trying to avoid the traditional approach of chemo and radiation. So I chose another approach. But before I went to have the. The what I finally did, I went through the treatments. The numbers started changing. I was very hopeful, took a week off. And in one week, it got worse than it was, which it attacked my emotions. We have emotions. And I had to grab my emotions because I was like, what? And my youngest daughter was in the room. And I gotta tell you, as a man, I broke down crying like, God, you know, what is this? And I learned the importance of never leaving the wisdom that you gathered through hard times. Don't ever leave it in the wilderness. Bring that wisdom with you because it's going to make you better. And like we were talking about, we don't like to admit, but there's maturity that happens in the midst of discomfort. And I wanted to change my question from lord, why me? To Lord, what do you want me to get out of this? And so after that was over with and that treatment didn't work, I was like, wow. I saw that I am a human and that it was okay.

[Joni Lamb]

And Taffy, she really had a word for you that you needed to hear. Your precious.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Why Taffy? Taffy was so strong through the whole thing. She said you didn't do anything wrong. Because the temptation was, let me evaluate to see what I did wrong to deserve this.

[Joni Lamb]

She said it strongly.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah, she said, you didn't do anything wrong. And now you know what we got to do. And what she was referring to was, all right, let's go and take this procedure. Let's have this operation. It does not say that your faith is weak and you don't have faith. It just says that you need to deal with this this way. And continue to say, I am healed.

[Joni Lamb]

Yes.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And so.

[Joni Lamb]

And you had to, you had to follow your peace.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yep. My peace was leading me there because it was a procedure that only 350 people had dealt with. And I had an old doctor, 70, 70 years old, who had, you know, he tells you I'm the best in the world. You know that, don't you? He probably is. And so we went through that. The procedure lasted for four hours. And they had to stop in the middle of it because my insides were. Wouldn't be still. So they had to kind of pause and let that happen. And I got through it. And now we're getting ready to recover. And I heard in my spirit, okay, son, that's it. And I knew I was going to get a time of peace. And now I started gathering in the wisdom from all of those places. And the first place I gathered in wisdom was deliverance from approval. That we cannot help God when we are addicted to approval.

[Joni Lamb]

So true. And we especially, especially Internet approval.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah, well, you listen. The Internet is undefeated. And you don't need to try to get approval from the Internet. And then the second thing I saw was I was more empathetic towards people. And when I would see people in a certain way, I would ask, I wonder what it took for them to get into that place right there.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

So that's a mind shift that you previously, a previously held belief that God had to take you through this journey to teach you that.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Well, God didn't have to take me through that journey. It was the journey I went through that I could gather the wisdom from that. And I'm glad you asked that, because sometimes people will again want to make a new doctrine that says you can't learn nothing until you go through something heavy. But whatever you go through.

[Joni Lamb]

Take the.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Wisdom from it, because that's what life is. You're going to either do life or it's going to do you.

[Joni Lamb]

Because God, you know, is not the author of disease.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Right?

[Joni Lamb]

You know, you said he's already completed the work at Calvary, but that doesn't mean that we won't be affected by things here on this earth. And when we are, we carry him on the inside of us through it. And that whole thing you and I were talking about, that the faith message, if you will, so many times has been misunderstood, like, almost like a faith and a faith, or you just say it and you close your eyes as to the reality of what's going on. God never said to do that. And that's not real faith, is it?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

You know, life is a journey, and we're here in this life, and stuff happens in this life. But he's already finished it. I mean, he's gone to the end. He knows what it's gonna. What it's like.

[Joni Lamb]

That's done.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah, it's done.

[Joni Lamb]

It's done.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Now you're gonna have to choose to live in the realm of the finished. Or you're gonna have to choose to live by the circumstances and emotions, negative emotions, directing you different ways. And the fear and the fear of it.

[Joni Lamb]

Because, I mean, the fear. 20, 20, 2021. The fear.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Listen, when fear knocks on the door, the revelation of who you are in Christ says, that's not me anymore. As hard as it is, that's not me anymore. I have the love and a sound mind. That's not me. And it knocks again. That's not me anymore. That was my journey. That's not me anymore. It was almost as if the Satan said, I'm going to wear you down. And I had to say out loud, do you actually think that I'm making these declarations just to see results? I said, it's not just to see results. I'm making these declarations because I believe it.

[Joni Lamb]

Amen.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And something happened on the inside of me. It's that relationship part versus the transaction part. I have a relationship with God. He is good. I don't have to be Good. In order to get his goodness. He's already good. I'm gonna get his goodness. I don't know when, but it's gonna show up.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And so we went through that, got out of that situation. I preached New Year's Eve on the pulpit. I was swallowed up by this jacket that I had, and I shared the testimony with my church. The first time they. It was tears all over the place, including my healed. Oh. Oh. I'd like to thank everybody that was there that day.

[Joni Lamb]

Anybody, like, I mean, spiritually, physically, emotionally. When you have that kind of vulnerability, act as a man of God to say, hey, this is what I went through, and God was faithful and he's going to be faithful for you.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Vulnerability could be the most powerful ministry tool for today because we have been so afraid to be vulnerable. It's hard for people to receive a lot of what you're saying over a period of time. They hear it, they hear it, they hear it, they hear it. And then they go through. And then they look at your perfect self up there, and you never have no issues up there. And you ain't got no problem with your mate, with your children. Your children are shining angels that are floating around all the time.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Okay, that's me, by the way.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And it's just really. It becomes a challenge to receive what.

[Joni Lamb]

You say is the perfect person that isn't perfect. You know, I remember, I'm thinking as you're talking, when your dad went to be with Jesus, and I remember I was out in the front yard and he had been gone maybe like five or six months, and we used to lay out on the front driveway because the sun would set that way. I was just laying out there, and I was talking to the Lord, and I was like, lord, now, I'm not questioning you, but I have a question. Yeah, but I'm not questioning you, but I'm just saying, like, I wonder, did you really think about. I'm just kind of like, I'm talking to God. This is the way we talk. He wants to have that kind of relationship with you, by the way. And I remember he just said two words to me, trust me. And then, you know, you can fast.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Forward.

[Joni Lamb]

Another six to nine months later, I'm back on the driveway, and God has opened some doors. He actually has brought someone into my life. And I'm laying there thanking him for all that he's done. And it's almost like I hear him chuckle. And then I started laughing. I was like, you knew all the time. Because you see time past Present and future simultaneously. And you knew what you were going to do, and you just told me to trust you, and I did. And look what you've done.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

He knows your end.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

He does.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And you don't. And, yeah, he can laugh because it's like, oh, if you only knew what I knew. But you cast your care on him. That means go to God and say. Casting your care means go to God and say, I'm mad at you.

[Joni Lamb]

Or cry. He can take it.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

It.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

How do you. How do you trust God? When your heart is broken, you.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

You make it to. To trust God.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

This.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

This gets into the labor part. We enter into that rest. It's finished. It's done. It's completed. It can't be undone without.

[Joni Lamb]

Without unforgiveness and bitterness.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. Yeah. But the. The. The. For the forgiveness you hold on turns into bitterness, and it troubles you. It'll get you sick. It'll do some things. But when you trust God, you're saying, lord, I rely on you. And what does labor look like? Father, I know that I'm righteous. So, Father, I declare that I'm the righteousness of God. Father, I know that I'm redeemed. I'm going to sing a song of redemption. Meditating in the word, singing your song, getting with your community, letting them build you up. What are you doing? The storm knocked your satellite dish offline. You're not picking up any of your channels, and you're saying it's a matter of me just getting on the roof and adjusting my satellite dish. I trust you, Lord, I rely on you. I align myself up again with what you have. Finished. Does it feel good all the time? No. Will it happen when I want it to happen?

[Joni Lamb]

No, probably not.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

It's a quality decision, and a decision is an open door to reality. It's a quality decision that I'm going to trust God. Come, hail the high water. And my decision was, lord, you've already done enough for me. If you don't do anything else, I'm going to still trust you and I'm going to still love you.

[Joni Lamb]

You.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

And if I have to die trusting you, what a way to go. So now I've moved from transaction to relationship. And you know he good. You know he's good. So, you know, you can expect from his goodness to come into your life.

[Joni Lamb]

So good. I appreciate you just being real. You know, I'm a pastor's kid. We are.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

We're all from ministry. And I can think of the moment that my dad just cried out to God when my mom was diagnosed with cancer, and he said, God, I need her. The church needs her, and the family needs her. And what we have to realize is our wilderness wisdom affects and impacts generations to come. And that moment in my life just changed me forever. And you can't talk me out of a miracle, but it was because they were real. And, you know, we do have questions for God, but thank God he has answers for us.

[Joni Lamb]

And she was like 4. Fourth stage that had metastasized to the liver. And she came home, she did, and chose to get up and make breakfast for April and pretend. I mean, it's just like it was.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

She didn't deny it. You know, I grew up in that moment where that faith movement, which is. Thank God for it, but it was a little bit out of balance this time. At times, keep the switch of faith turned on. I thought if I turned off the light, faith was gone from our house.

[Joni Lamb]

You know, I didn't know. And so, you know, they.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

She didn't deny her sickness, but she just trusted God.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. See, there's a difference between asking God a question and questioning.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Exactly.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Questioning is questioning and doubt. Like, well, if you're so powerful, God, then why did you let this happen?

[Joni Lamb]

Exactly.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Versus Mary asking the question, how can this be, seeing that I know not a man. God wants us to be intelligent and to use our mind and to think and ask him questions. Yeah, I want to ask questions of my, well, God, if this is my faith, why. Why am I calling it weak? And why am I saying I need to make it stronger? And why am I saying that that didn't happen? Because my faith is so weak? And he says, I'm glad you asked that question. I spend the next month looking at it and find out one faith. His faith. His faith is done. It's complete. It's powerful. Now live in the realm of faith. It's his faith that he measured to us. And now we don't have our manufactured faith. We have his faith. And so we got to learn how to live in the realm of the done, of the finished, of the completed that cannot be undone. And even in the midst of the stuff attacking us, I live in the realm of the finish, bro. You want some of me? Bring it on.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

That's so cool. I was gonna say, I think. Don't you think God's okay with our doubts as long as we're bringing those to him and, like, having that, you know, relational component?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

You remember the guy who said, lord, I believe, but help my unbelief. There was no rebuke that followed that.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

He knows who we are.

[Joni Lamb]

He can deal with authenticity better. I mean, think about that. He wants to have that kind of relationship. He can deal with our emotions.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah, yeah. But we have to deal with our emotions. Sometimes we act like we don't have them.

[Joni Lamb]

We have to recognize that he's given us emotions and talk about it and not push those down or pretend they're not there. That's one of the big issues, I think, that happen in the faith movement, if you will.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

We are. We have emotions. He just wants to make sure that emotions don't have us. And we're talking about negative emotions. We don't want negative emotions to have our lives because they will take you somewhere. Emotions are feelings on the inside designed to move you in a direction. And he gave those emotions to us so we can enjoy life, enjoy his blessings and so forth and so on.

[Joni Lamb]

Well, your book, the Transformative Power of Grace, you touch on a lot of this. Faith without fear, love without limits. Who needs to read the book?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Everybody.

[Joni Lamb]

That's what real authors say to me. But it will help understand kind of what we're talking about, right?

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Yeah. What we're talking about is, first of all, receiving this grace as a gift and seeing grace not just as a principle or a curriculum, but grace as a person. Jesus, full of grace and truth. And you can tell people who have. They have this relationship with Jesus where peace stands out. I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. Whether you like me or not, I'm good.

[Joni Lamb]

Yeah. And I see the peace. I told you that. I see it in your eyes. I see it in your countenance. And you cannot manufacture that kind of peace after you've gone through something like that. Well, it has been amazing to have you at the table, for you to share your story. We are out of time. But I want you to remember you don't have to earn what Jesus already gave us. That's what we're talking about. You're loved. You're accepted. You're enough because of him, because of the finished work of the cross. So I want you to receive God's grace. Step into that rest he's prepared for you. If you don't know Jesus, you know, some of you, you've sat here and you have listened. You don't even know why you stopped and listened. But just like something got ahold of you. It's like the Lord is just wooing you and opening your heart to something maybe that you don't understand, but that you need and that's Jesus. And all you have to do is just call out on his name and say, jesus, I don't understand about all these people, but if you're real, reveal yourself to me. The onus is not on me to prove who he is. He can prove who he is. You pray a sincere prayer, he will reveal himself to you. I've seen him do it time and time again. He loves you so much. Just ask him to come into your heart right now. There's also a prayer line number on the screen. If you don't know how to pray, we have prayer partners that will pray with you. We would love to pray with you. Or if you are dealing with some kind of sickness in your body, because we talked about that today, I want you to call. We want to pray with you as well. The same God that touched Creflo, that led him, that gave him peace, that showed him a path to follow, he can do the same thing for you. The Bible says he's no respecter of persons. He loves you today. Well, I do want to thank Pastor Creflo for joining us. To get a copy of his book and know more about his ministry, visit worldchangers.org, and as always, make sure to follow us on all social media. Subscribe to our YouTube channel for full episodes, exclusive content and let us know how Table Talk is touching your life. We love hearing from you. And of course you can also listen to the Joni Table Talk podcast, available now on all the major platforms. But thank you so much for watching, especially those of you that watch for the first time. I just pray that this has blessed you, encouraged you, and you're sitting there. There's just like something in the room I don't understand. That's the beautiful presence of God that's there with you, just letting you know that he loves you. He has a plan for your life. He has a purpose for you to fulfill. So you believe that. Receive it right now in Jesus name. Thank you, Creflo. We love you.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Thank you for having me.

[Joni Lamb]

We'll see you next time. Bye bye. For today.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Joni Lamb]

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[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

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[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

When I.

[Pastor Creflo Dollar]

Told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten.

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

They called me a masochist, rolled their.

[Joni Lamb]

Eyes, or just asked why Benghazi?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

The truth became a web of lies from prologue projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Joni Lamb]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Katharine Mullins Robbins]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Joni Lamb]

This is an iHeart podcast.