SECURING AMERICA WITH FRANK GAFFNEY - MARCH 21st, 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: Securing America with Frank Gaffney (March 21, 2026)

Main Theme This episode of Securing America, hosted by Frank Gaffney on Real America’s Voice, delivers a hard-hitting analysis of the Chinese Communist Party’s (CCP) strategies and threats, both globally and specifically toward America’s security interests. The show features two key guests with deep expertise on China: Cleo Pascal of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies and retired Marine Corps Colonel Grant Newsham. Together, they detail the CCP’s abuses—from industrial-scale organ harvesting to infiltration of key Pacific territories—and the U.S. and allies’ vulnerabilities and required responses.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Introduction and Framing of the Threat (03:10)

• Frank Gaffney opens the episode by situating the conversation in the urgent context of “protecting the country we love against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”
• The main focus: The CCP’s crimes against humanity—specifically organ harvesting—and their global security implications.

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2. Industrial-Scale Organ Harvesting by the CCP (06:17 – 12:22)

Event Recap: Jan Jekielek’s Book Launch ("Killed to Order")

• Cleo Pascal describes attending a program centered on Jan Jekielek’s new book about the organ harvesting industry run by the CCP, labeling it “murder for profit at an industrial scale.”
• Quote: “You’re looking at a collection of body parts with prices attached to each of them. And this is what the book is actually about... a glimpse into a mindset that is foreign to most people.” —Cleo Pascal (06:54)

Dehumanization, Target Groups, and Processes

• Gaffney and Pascal discuss the CCP’s process of dehumanizing people of faith (Falun Gong, Christians, Uyghurs) and subjecting them to DNA profiling for the purpose of organ “matching.”
• Quote: “It’s often done without anesthesia, taking these organs out of live human beings. It’s unimaginably... demonic, really, is it not?” —Frank Gaffney (06:39)

Implications for the World

• The panel stresses that CCP’s attitude toward its own people extends to outsiders, warning, “If you think that we will be treated better...you’re making a serious mistake.” (10:39)
• Ongoing: No effective check currently exists against this system ("So no." —Cleo Pascal, 11:30).

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3. The Surveillance State and Social Credit System (15:19 – 19:48)

The Social Credit System’s Mechanics & Global Export

• Pascal explains how the surveillance system operates: Personal behavior and adherence to party doctrine are digitally tracked, affecting individuals' rights and freedoms.
• Explicit links made between the medical system and social control, and how these are being exported, notably to the Solomon Islands.

Case Study: The Solomon Islands

• Example of Daniel Suidani, a leader denied medical treatment due to opposition to CCP policies.
• Quote: “He needed an MRI... the federal government said, ‘We’ll pay, but you have to let in the Chinese.’ He said no... he didn’t get dialysis and he died.” —Cleo Pascal (16:40)

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4. Strategic Threats in the Pacific: Diego Garcia & Beyond (19:48 – 24:45)

Diego Garcia’s Geopolitical Role

• Ongoing struggle to maintain U.S. access to this critical Indian Ocean base amidst British policies and possible CCP-backed maneuvers via Mauritius.
• Concerns: Legal frameworks may enable undermining U.S. use of the base, potentially allowing Chinese influence to encroach (22:57).

Restrictive Impact During Iran War

• British government has limited U.S. use of Diego Garcia to defensive actions only—a precedent viewed as dangerous for U.S. power projection.

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5. The “Boiling Frog” Approach: CCP Incremental Takeover Tactics (27:25 – 33:23)

Focus: Yap and the Second Island Chain

• Cleo Pascal shares recent, on-the-ground evidence: Chinese crews using infrastructure “aid” (e.g., runway construction) as leverage for deeper access in strategically vital Pacific islands.
• Quote: “They used it as a way of getting into the systems, and now they're on the ground as the US is trying to build up this infrastructure to protect against China.” —Cleo Pascal (31:57)

Strategic Ambitions

• The Chinese aim to push U.S. influence back to Hawaii by controlling the Pacific—a goal studied in detail from World War II history.

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6. Elite Capture & U.S. Vulnerabilities in Pacific Governance (33:23 – 38:28)

Case Study: Angel Demapan

• U.S. Insular and International Affairs official described as linked to Chinese interests, having enabled Chinese casino and visa access in U.S. Pacific territories.
• Warning: CCP elite capture operations have placed individuals in roles that directly impact U.S. territorial security in the Pacific.

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7. China’s Role in the Iran Conflict and Global Power Projection (43:12 – 56:45)

China-Iran-Russia Axis

• Grant Newsham discusses Chinese assistance to Iran: Real-time targeting info for drone and missile strikes, logistics for delivering military supplies, and general support for Iranian strategy against U.S. interests (43:57).
• Quote: “They are certainly providing targeting information for Iranian drones, Iranian missiles, and that's one of the reasons why they do hit what they're aiming at... not just the Russians, but the Chinese.” —Grant Newsham (43:57)

Geopolitical Maneuvering

• China’s possible deployment to the Strait of Hormuz is dismissed as posturing. Gaffney and Newsham warn against U.S. foreign policy naivete, likening past U.S. invitations for CCP “help” against Somali pirates as a blunder that enabled Chinese naval expansion (46:30).
• Quote: “Whoever thought it was a good idea to encourage the Chinese to get that kind of experience... was not at the high end of the IQ spectrum.” —Grant Newsham (46:30)

Djibouti: PLA’s First Overseas Base

• China’s military foothold adjacent to U.S. and Japanese bases underscores loss of strategic initiative.

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8. Assessing Chinese Military Equipment & Global Readiness (52:58 – 57:47)

Performance and Quality

• Chinese arms, while sometimes underperforming for clients like Iran and Venezuela, include sophisticated systems (notably anti-ship missiles) that pose real threats if deployed directly against U.S. forces.
• Importance of not underestimating China: “Don’t get overconfident... It could be partially the way it was employed... Their anti-ship missiles are actually pretty good.” —Grant Newsham (53:48)

Resource Stretch & Readiness Risks

• U.S. forces are stretched thin; involvement in multiple geopolitical crises could create vulnerable “thin spots” for Chinese exploitation.
• Quote: “You kind of resemble the Dutch boy, you know, with leaks in the dike... we're thinly stretched.” —Grant Newsham (56:45)

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9. Allied Contributions: Japan’s Role in Regional Security (57:47 – 60:26)

U.S.-Japan Relations

• The future of U.S. presence in the Pacific may hinge on Japan’s willingness to share burdens and risks.
• U.S. public and policy support may wane if allies fail to reciprocate in collective security efforts.

Quote: “Japan needs to recognize that... They have a pretty good military, particularly their navy, and they have a contribution they could make. It's time that they actually go somewhere and take some risk.” —Grant Newsham (59:28)

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On organ harvesting:
  “You’re looking at a collection of body parts with prices attached to each of them...” —Cleo Pascal (06:54)

• Warning to U.S. investors:
  “So when you're talking about... should their pension plans be investing in China? Oh, okay, you mean the place where they take Christians and Uyghurs and Falun Gong off the street... and sell their parts?” —Cleo Pascal (09:08)

• On the reach of the CCP:
  “They used [the construction project] as a way of getting into the systems...” —Cleo Pascal (31:57)

• On elite capture:
  “He's the one that's pushing to continue for Chinese to have visa-free access into the Commonwealth of North Marianas.” —Cleo Pascal (35:32)

• On U.S. strategic risk:
  “Our U.S. forces are simply are not big enough to cover the whole globe adequately. And that's been true for a long time.” —Grant Newsham (57:47)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [03:10] Host intro, framing the CCP threat
• [06:17 – 12:22] Organ harvesting and its implications
• [15:19 – 19:48] Surveillance state, social credit system, and case studies (Solomon Islands)
• [19:48 – 24:45] Strategic value and vulnerability of Diego Garcia
• [27:25 – 33:23] CCP incremental takeover in Pacific islands (Yap, ‘boiling frog’ strategy)
• [33:23 – 38:28] U.S. government infiltration and Pacific vulnerabilities (Angel Demapan)
• [43:12 – 56:45] China’s role in the Iran conflict, global power projection, PLA in Djibouti, and alliance implications
• [52:58 – 57:47] Assessment of Chinese military imports/exports, U.S. readiness
• [57:47 – 60:26] Japan’s military role and alliance dynamics

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Conclusion

This episode lays bare the multidimensional challenge posed by the CCP, advocating urgent wakefulness and strategic response from U.S. leadership, allies, and the American public. From human rights atrocities to quiet conquests in crucial island territories, and from subversion of allies to evolving military threats, the CCP’s strategies are dissected with clarity and urgency by Gaffney, Pascal, and Newsham. The message: Now is the time to recognize and push back against global CCP ambitions—before America’s security margins are fatally breached.

Transcript

[Cancer Patient Advocate]

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[Martha Stewart]

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[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Gaffney. The program that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country we love against all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the glory of God and his kingdom. We're going to be talking about China in the course of this very special program. We have two of our leading experts on the subject with us. I'm very pleased to say I had the chance to spend a little time with both of them in the course of a recent program and celebrations on the margins of it with a very, very much admired colleague and dear friend, Jan Yekilek, who earlier this week had a program with Rob Schneider in the Kennedy center, excuse me, the Trump Kennedy center concert hall in which they spoke about Jan's new book. It's entitled Killed to Order and it's about the horrific practice of industrial scale organ harvesting by and to the great profit of the Chinese Communist Party. Our first guest, Cleo Pascal, is best known for her work on what the Chinese are up to in the waters of the Pacific. But I'm going to take advantage of her joining us to ask her to speak a little bit about this program that took place, I think, amidst growing awareness. Certainly thanks in no small measure to Jan's new book about what this entails and what it means not only for the people of China, but I believe, the people of the world. Cleo is, as I mentioned, a duty expert on the Pacific Islands, and we'll talk with her about all of that and more. She's also a senior non resident fellow of the foundation for Defense of Democracies and a frequent contributor to not only this program, I'm pleased to say, but others like War Room with her friend Steve Bannon, in which she brings to light what, particularly in the arena of political warfare the Chinese Communists are up to and the desperate need for us to be attentive to those threats and correcting them wherever we find them. Cleo, thank you so much for joining us and giving us some time on your way to the airport. I so appreciate your doing so.

[Cleo Pascal]

A great pleasure. Thank you very much.

[Frank Gaffney]

So let's start with the program that you and I attended last night. You saw more of it than I did. So I'm anxious to get your thoughts on the conversation between Jan and Rob and, you know, sort of the, the showcasing of the book, yes, but also of the profoundly troubling Subject matter as well.

[Cleo Pascal]

Yes. So what Jan was very clear about was. Yes, it's about this horrific organ harvesting that's. That's going on. And I actually don't like the term are gonna. It sounds. It's too benign. You know, this is. You know, you're. You're. It's murder for profit at an industrial scale. And for those in a.

[Frank Gaffney]

In a. In a most barbaric way, as I understand it, it's often done without anesthesia, and it's taking these organs out of live human beings. It's just unimaginably, you know, demonic, really, is it not?

[Cleo Pascal]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's soulless. Right. I mean, it's kind of the definition of. Because you're looking at what. And what they were discussing was this approach for. Of the Chinese Communist Party of this instrumentalization where you're. You don't look at a human being with a soul. You. You. You're looking at a collection of body parts with price prices attached to each of them. And this is what the book is actually about, is this is how this system looks at everything. Looks at other countries, looks at resources, looks at allies. So it's a way of a glimpse into a mindset that is foreign to most of the people, I would imagine, watching the show, unless they themselves have been victims of communism.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, well, and they would recognize it for sure. Talk a little bit about the. The technical overlay of this, Cleo, because I think what's particularly ghoulish, to use your phrase about this is the. The combination of the kind of DNA profiling and the surveillance of everyone in China, most especially, you know, practitioners of Falun Gong or. Or Christians or certainly, you know, the Uyghurs that are subjected to this. But I think others in the, you know, Chinese Gulag, political prisoners and the like, are as well. How does that interplay with, you know, the murder for profit, as you put it?

[Cleo Pascal]

Yeah, well, they're people. People who are problems for the state. And anybody who is a person of faith is a problem for the state because faith is in direct competition. Yeah. With allegiance to. Or fear of the state or worship

[Frank Gaffney]

of its deity, Xi Jinping.

[Cleo Pascal]

Well, that. That's right. Is subject to potentially. I mean, everybody is subject to profiling, obviously, and collection, as you mentioned, of DNA. And once you're in the prison system or the. The gulag system, the concentration camps, as they're being called in, in Xinjiang, you know, they. They have all of your genetic profiling. And the thing about Falun Gong practitioners in particular, is they are known for living a clean lifestyle. They don't drink or smoke, and so their organs are particularly valuable. Um, and for the Uyghurs, for the people who are coming out of the Middle east who want transplants, you have halal transplants. So I mean, it's just the, the whole thing is just indescribably horrific and it should be frankly the starting point for any discussion about anything to do with the Chinese Communist. You know, so when you're talking about should, well, should we. Should their pension plan be investing in China? Oh, okay, you mean the place where they take Christians and Uyghurs and Falun Gong off the street and, and blood type them in DNA, type them and wait until somebody needs part of them and then kills them and sells their parts? You mean those people? Is that where you want your pension fund to go? So this should just be the starting point.

[Frank Gaffney]

You're not, you're not really objecting to the idea that, you know, we would make investments in or come cause with the people of China. The problem is you're dealing with the regime exclusively. You're obliged to, are you not?

[Cleo Pascal]

You're funding the regime that is oppressing, killing and selling the body parts of the people of China. You know, you care about the people of China. You do not want this system to continue.

[Frank Gaffney]

And I also say, Kalia, if I may just. This is such a pregnant topic, but if you think that we will be treated better if the Chinese can get their hands on us than they treat their own people, you're making a serious mistake. And I guess, Cleo, what, what you're really getting at, and I think it's exactly the place to start with the rest of our conversation, is the evil incarnate that is the Chinese Communist Party is, is really exemplified in this splendid book of Yanja Kelux Killed to order. And, and to the extent that that's what's operating here, is there any check on it at the moment at all? As best you can tell, the.

[Cleo Pascal]

So no. And in fact you used the word pregnant. Remember, this is the country of the one child policy that was, you know, forcibly sterilizing and I mean, it's. You. You. Well, I mean, that was. Yeah, I mean, yes. And I mean, I can't imagine what else. So you know, it's not. And, and, and I really can't imagine what else because it is an evil at a level that is very difficult for, for me to comprehend. But I. So yes, it's. They use the medical system as a way also of control and oppression. So it's not just this. It's, you know, if you, if you don't support the Chinese Communist Party, good luck getting health care in any and remember, the state is linked into everything but they're exporting it. We'll talk about it later.

[Frank Gaffney]

System. Yeah, that's right. We have to take a break. In fact, we're going to talk about it on the other side of this very short break. Cleo Pascal of the foundation for Defense of Democracy is one of the world's great experts on the Chinese Communist Party. What it is up to, particularly in the vast reaches of the Pacific, the Indo Pacific I should say as well. And we're going to talk a little bit about that on the other side of this short play. Please stay tuned for much more with Cleo. Right up to this.

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[Martha Stewart]

how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Available in the Reynolds Wrap aisle at Walmart.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

When I was diagnosed, all I wanted to do was get back to work. I wanted to get back to that trajectory that I was on prior to the cancer. I always felt like I had value. I had a place on the team to just be treated with dignity.

[Cleo Pascal]

It means everything.

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Research shows there is a significant connection between the ability to continue to work and, and cancer recovery. We can make work a better place

[Cancer Patient Advocate]

for healing, learn more and sign the [e-mail].

[Frank Gaffney]

We're back and so is Cleo Pascal. Praise God. Cleo is joining us and sharing some insights into some aspects of the main thing as our friend Captain James Finnell and our committee on the present Danger China, of which Cleo is an important member, are very much seized with, namely the Chinese Communist Party. And Cleo, you were making an important point that connects to kind of what we need to do next, which is sort of back the lens up here and that is that the Chinese Communist Party not only uses technology like DNA, you know, mapping and aggregating of data and all of that, but also the world's most comprehensive surveillance state apparatus and the means by which it enables them essentially to have real time knowledge of where everybody is in China and what they're doing, what they're thinking, what they might, if left to their own devices, feel or say or do about the Chinese Communist Party. Not least. This is called the social credit system. Would you help us understand what that is exactly and what it means in practice?

[Cleo Pascal]

Sure. Yes, it is. It's a method of social control whereby if you do things that the party doesn't like, you know, you are, that's noted. And if you have things that you have to do, like read Xi Jinping Thought Hot every day. That is noted. And it's, it's digitized. And we saw it in full action during COVID where, you know, you couldn't cross a street or get on a bus or because you have to have your phone with you so you're carrying your own monitoring device. And we saw elements of it. I'm Canadian, right. So we saw elements of it even in Canada. I mean, we had bank accounts being frozen because they supported the truckers while it was legal, you know, roadblocks. So you're starting the system is, is, is the dream of authoritarianism and it's really been refined. But the point is to, to tie it to what Janya Kellogg wrote about in Kill to Order is there is a, a melding of the medical system into the social credit system that you're starting to see even be exported out of China. So if you look at the Solomon Islands, for example, which is an area, a country that switched from Taiwan to China in 2019, you can see what China can get away with if it can. And one of the things that it did was there was a. A man there called Daniel Suidani who, who is the premier of one of the provinces. And he and his leadership issued a communique blocking the entrance of any new CCP linked businesses into the province because they were concerned about what it was doing environmentally, but also very explicitly based on freedom of religion. They didn't want to have to do with an. A systemically atheist country, which is what they were calling it. So they and the Chinese proxies obviously that. Yeah, that's right, yeah. Oh, they mentioned the CCP specifically. Yeah, they went after him and he needed medical care at one point and the federal government said there was, he needed an MRI and there was no MRI in the country. And the federal government said, we'll pay for your MRI outside the country, but you have to let in the Chinese. And he said no. So, I mean, there are people, there are people out there on the front line of this willing to die rather than take Chinese money. In his case, what happened was somebody in India heard about it, got in touch with the President's office in Taiwan. They got him out for medical care. He came back, but he subsequently had kidney failure, went into hospital. This was just last year. And there was only one dialysis machine in the country and it had been donated by China and it was operated by a Chinese doctor. And he didn't get dialysis and he died. So we're seeing an exportation of the social credit system straight into the medical system of countries where China, the Chinese Communist Party, has enough leverage to be able to control the population that way.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, and the ruthlessness with which they will pursue their ends is, Is evident in that story, and I thank you for sharing it. Cleo, since we're in the region that you specialize in, talk a little bit about another island that is of great importance to us, really paramount importance, I would argue, and I think you feel that way too. In the Indian Ocean, Diego Garcia has been a critically needed facility for projecting American power throughout much of the other side of the world. You have led heroically a fight to assure that that continues to be the case, despite efforts that the British government is making to engineer arrangements for the disposition of this island that almost certainly will preclude our use of it in the future. Indeed have to some extent constricted our use of it even now, in the midst of this Iran war, talk about all that Diego Garcia, if you will.

[Cleo Pascal]

So this is, it's, this was quite something. So Diego Garcia is, is a, on UK soil, British soil. It was sort of a colonial remnant. It was being administered by the British out of Mauritius. But Mauritius was, is very far away. It's actually physically closer to India or the Maldives. It's on the eastern side of the southern Indian Ocean and Mauritius is on the western side.

[Frank Gaffney]

It's only like 1200 miles away.

[Cleo Pascal]

It's pretty far. It's pretty far. And it's part of a chain of islands called the chagos archipelago, about 60 islands or so. And a lot of them are atolls. So they have multiple islands within them. North, south chain. And it was forcibly depopulated by the British and then in the late 60s, early 70s and the US and the British together, but it was really paid for by the us set up a major base on one of the islands called Diego Garcia. And that base is unique because it, it can resupply nuclear submarines, the strategic bombers can land there, it can port aircraft carriers. It has the ability to collect critical information from a very wide range. And it's where under normal circumstances, for example, a lot of the operations in Iran would have been launched from and then go back to resupply all that stuff. The British, specifically Prime Minister Keir Starmer has had an agenda to give the entire chain of islands to Mauritius and then just give them, and then pay to lease back just Diego Garcia for the cost of tens of billions on a 99 year lease. And according to the agreement, the lease agreement, if the UK stops payment for one year, the lease can be terminated for one year.

[Frank Gaffney]

I thought it was maybe even a month.

[Cleo Pascal]

Well, if they miss a payment and they're supposed to pay, I think on an annual basis regardless, I think that the agreement is designed not to last. And the person negotiating the agreement for Mauritius was a Brit who is a close friend of Keir Starmer and the National Security Advisor. Current National Security Advisor in the uk, a guy called Jonathan Powell, was a desk officer during the Hong Kong handover. He has a consultancy that did a lot of work with China. He himself has visited China fairly regularly. And Mauritius is known to have Mauritius leadership, is known to be quite corrupt and has close ties with China. So the whole thing looks like an excuse to first isolate Diego Garcia, get you know, Chinese resorts on some of the neighboring islands, Chinese fishing fleet floating around, that sort of thing and then eventually for the, the base to be threatened. Legally. And if you had a different sort of administration in Washington, that legal challenge might end up being effective, perhaps because

[Frank Gaffney]

there would be nuclear weapons stored there which would be violating a treaty that the Mauritians have signed. Yes, we just Very quickly, I've got to take a break here. Just a moment, but as I understand it, Cleo Keir Starmer's campaign on Diego has already resulted in our restricted use of it in the Iran war, that we've been able only to use it for defensive purposes. Is that correct?

[Cleo Pascal]

That's correct. So initially the British blocked the uk, the US from using any of their bases at all. Now they're just being allowed to be used for defensive purposes. So hitting missile sites, things like that.

[Frank Gaffney]

This is a prime example of what's to come and must be repudiated. And Cleo, thank you for your leadership on it. We have to take a short break. We'll be right back with more with Cleo Pascal. Stay tuned. Foreign.

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Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, llc. SEC Registered Advisor. Generated Assets is an interactive analysis tool. Output is for informational purposes only and is not an investment recommendation or advice.

[Public Investing Platform Announcer]

Complete Disclosures available at public.comdisclosures Ever wonder

[Martha Stewart]

how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret. When prepping for cooking and baking, get ahead of the mess with new Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Just lightly wet the counter so the paper grips. Lay it down and drips and spills stay on the paper, not on your counter. Cleanup is as simple as lifting it away to reveal clean counters. Effortless it is thanks to Reynolds Kitchen's countertop prep paper. Wet it, set it prep it done available in the Reynolds wrap aisle at Walmart.

[Cleo Pascal]

I think when you're diagnosed with cancer, you crave a semblance of normalcy and control. And so work allowed me to be me. So I think it's really important that companies stay flexible. Cancer in a diagnosis can be all consuming, but it doesn't have to be.

[Research Narrator]

Research shows there is a significant connection between the ability to continue to work and cancer recovery. We can make work a better place

[Cancer Patient Advocate]

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[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back to you, of course, but also to Cleopascal of the foundation for Defense of Democracies. She is, as she mentioned, Canadian by birth, but very much a binational treasure as far as I'm concerned. We're always delighted to have her with us to talk about, well, the defense of the United States in what she considers to be, rightly, I think, our western frontier, which is in the Central Pacific, out by Guam, for example, and Northern Marianas. Cleo, I do want to focus on that part of your portfolio next, and it involves something that you actually provided photographic evidence of which you shared with me yesterday. I'd like to see if we can bring it up on the screen at this point, but if we can't, we'll just describe it. Tell us what you've discovered in your travels out in that part of the world recently, specifically on the island of Yap.

[Cleo Pascal]

So Yap is in the second island chain. It's in between Guam and Palau. Palau, Second World War people might know for the battle of Peleliu, this is a highly strategic zone. And if China's going to take Taiwan, as it repeatedly says it will try to, these islands need to be neutralized. Now, I don't know what that would look like, whether it's kinetic or not, but the US Military is concerned to the point where they're rebuilding a lot or building a lot of military or dual use infrastructure along the whole chain, including on the island of Yap. So what I had originally read was reporting about Secretary Hegseth investing, talking about investing about $2 billion on the island of Yap. Now, the island of Yap has a population of about 5,000 people, but they're looking at building about a 10,000 foot Runway and redoing the port. Yap is the name of the of an island, but it's also the name of the state the island is in. So it's like the city of New York and the state of New York and, yeah, and the rest of that chain has a whole whole series of islands. And one of them is called Woolly Eye. Both Yap and Woolly eye are about 400 miles from Guam. So Guam is here, Yap island of Yap is here, Wooleai is here. And I had heard that the Chinese were doing something out on Wooleai. So I went out. I had been reassured by people in the US Military. Don't worry, we've got it covered. Everything's fine. And I went. And very shortly after I arrived, the president of the country arrived and disappeared off into the forest because he was going to inaugurate the groundbreaking of a Japanese work, a Chinese work crew rebuilding a Japanese imperial Runway on Wooleai. That Runway has now been completed. It's about 3,000ft long, about 80ft wide. It's not ideal, obviously, from a strategic and logistical perspective, but what it actually accomplished really was the state of Yap was very resistant to letting in Chinese investment, but they needed a Runway because people needed to be able to medevac out of their. Um, you know, it's a. It can take five or six weeks for a boat to come through on a regular, on a regular basis, and then you've got five or six days to get by boat to hospital. Um, so, you know, if you need. I was staying with, with somebody there and they needed a prostate exam that meant three months, basically, because they had to wait for the boat to come, take the boat to the main island, get the exam, wait for the boat can come back. So it's just not tenable. So they needed the Runway and there's a missionary airline that does medevacs that will be able to use it. But so they let in the Chinese work crew. That Chinese work crew has now moved from there to the main island where the Americans are setting up their, their, their operations to work on a bridge and to work on secondary roads. So they used it as a way of getting into the systems and now they're on the ground as the US is trying to build up this infrastructure to protect against China.

[Frank Gaffney]

So, Cleo, what you're describing here is a classic example of the sort of. Well, I compare it to the old frog boiling, you know, analogy that it's incremental, it's piece by piece death of a thousand cuts, I guess, is another way of putting it. But it's all in the service of the Chinese political warfare strategy, is it not? And the, oh yeah, the strategic ambitions that the CCP has and just, you know, describe those. If you would, as you see it specifically in terms of what they portend for the central Pacific.

[Cleo Pascal]

Yes. So their, their, their goal. So what is the goal of China or who is China? You know, the goal is obviously what's best for the Chinese Communist Party first and foremost and then second is to be number one in the world of comprehensive national power. And part of the strategic component of that is at least hegemony in the, in the Pacific, pushing the US back to Hawaii, as, as I think Admiral Keating was told in 2008 by a Chinese official. But, but ultimately global, you know, making the world safe for the Chinese Communist Party. So, and an essential component of that, they studied World War II very carefully. They know both the strengths and weaknesses of the US and Japanese OPER operations and control over the Central Pacific is essential for that.

[Frank Gaffney]

And safe for the Chinese Communist Party means that it's very dangerous for the rest of us, does it not? And I wanted to ask you in that reconnection about an example of the political warfare strategy with respect to what the Chinese call elite capture. And you've been making book on an American official who has been given the responsibility, incredibly, for essentially managing the US position in this region, the Central Pacific, and even dispersing, you know, billions of dollars in funds to the region. Tell us about him. Tell us about the role that he's currently playing. What he previously did that smacks, well, Chinese elite capture, whether this is a fellow who ought to be anywhere near, you know, decision making responsibilities in this critical part of the world.

[Cleo Pascal]

Right. So I, so we're talking about the current Deputy Assistant Secretary for Insular and International affairs at the Department of Interior. So this whole area, his name is Angel Demipan and the territories of Guam, U.S. territories of Guam and the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands. This is American soil with US citizens on it is an eight hour flight west of Hawaii, but four hours from Japan or Taiwan. It's right. These are Americans living right on the front line, right on the second island chain. He's from one of those islands. He's from Tinian, which is where the Enola Gay took off from, for example. It's very highly strategic. He was in the parliament in, so in the, in the legislature. My Canadian is showing in the cnmi. And then he ran for Congress when he was in the legislature in cnmi he wrote legislation. He was part of the team that wrote legislation that made it easier for Chinese casino to set up there. He was also chief of staff for a governor. That was the governor that in spite of referendum from the people of CNMI against the casino allowed the Chinese casino to come in. He then worked as chief of staff for the woman that represents the Commonwealth of Northern Mariana Islands In Congress. In U.S. congress. She's the one that's pushing to continue for Chinese to have visa free access into the Commonwealth of North Marianas. We've gone over this over and over. Chinese can arrive without a visa there. When he ran for Congress himself, then

[Frank Gaffney]

what does that portend?

[Cleo Pascal]

So they're legally not supposed to leave cnmi, but at least in the hundreds, they're taking the boat 60 miles to Guam. Chinese have, have. The woman that ran the Bureau of Motor Vehicles in, in the Marianas was convicted of selling driver's licenses to Chinese nationals. They've been involved in human trafficking, murder. I mean, these are all on the record convictions.

[Frank Gaffney]

But the idea of getting into Guam without a visa means that you're into the United States effectively.

[Cleo Pascal]

Well, they are in the United States when they come into cnmi, but what it also means is they're near one of the most strategically important critical locations for U.S. defense, Guam. And we know the Chinese are already in the critical infrastructure through Volt, Typhoon and other cyber. And if they go after Taiwan, they're going to have to take Guam offline and cnmi, but specifically Guam. So they've got, if you want to put people in place is a good way of putting people in place.

[Frank Gaffney]

And Angel Demetrius position to do damage. Yeah.

[Cleo Pascal]

And so yeah, he, and he, when he ran for Congress, he took money from, illegally took money from Chinese companies as per FEC filings. But it was passed the statute of limitations. So the, so nothing happened to him. And he's now the person, he's the face, he's who negotiates on behalf of the US with the Commonwealth of Northern Marians and Guam and Palau and Yap and the Federation, the rest of the Federated States, Micronesia and the Marshall Islands. And so they.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, you know, and again, if this, if this were not a widespread practice in our country, this would be a singular problem. But it is an example of a very serious widespread problem and particularly egregious in this case. This is in the Trump administration, no less.

[Cleo Pascal]

It's perplexing how he got the appointment. And you know, two of those countries, Palau and Marshall Islands, recognize Taiwan. So they know they're sitting down opposite the table of a guy who took Chinese casino money for his political campaign and he's representing the US Government for countries that have made the principal decision to recognize Taiwan.

[Frank Gaffney]

And presumably that translates into growing pressure on them to, you know, fall into line with the Chinese, with their ambitions, with their penetrations, and ultimately with their control of what is the western frontier of the United States. As you've pointed out, Cleopascal, we have to leave it at that for the moment. But so much more to cover. So much we rely upon you to provide us in the way of updates on this. Thank you. Come back soon.

[Cleo Pascal]

Thank you very much. Thank you sir.

[Frank Gaffney]

We'll be right back folks. Stay tuned. Foreign.

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[Martha Stewart]

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[Frank Gaffney]

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[Frank Gaffney]

We're back. And so is Colonel Grant Newsham, United States Marine Corps retired, former foreign service officer, man of extremely impressive both business and military credentials. He has been in the Far east for 25 years or so and is therefore, we like to think, our forward deployed assets. And we're always delighted to catch up with him. He is the author of a best selling book about China entitled When China Attacks A Warning to America. You can also find his work@the centerforsecuritypolicy.org of which he is a senior fellow. Colonel, welcome back. It's so good to have you with us. Welcome to Washington, D.C. where we both find ourselves. And we had a chance to catch up a little bit at Jan Yekulek's splendid event at the Kennedy center, excuse me, the Trump Kennedy center last night. Good to have you back.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

I'm glad to be here.

[Frank Gaffney]

So we might talk a little bit about that Kennedy center event, Grant. But before we do, let me get to some urgent matters of business. One is, what is China up to as you see it, in connection with the Iran war? I'm hearing reports that they are aiding and abetting the Iranians. Not a surprise. They're a principal ally, of course, but also that they're being importuned by President Trump to send military forces to the Strait of Hormuz to try to make sure that its ally doesn't continue to impede traffic there. Walk us through what's going on here, sir.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, the Chinese would like to see the Americans get bogged down in Iran. They are certainly providing targeting information for Iranian drones, Iranian missiles, and that's one of the reasons why they do hit what they're aiming at. And it's because of help the Chinese are giving them, not just the Russians, but the Chinese.

[Frank Gaffney]

And those would be American bases and diplomatic institutions and the like, is that correct?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

It certainly would be. Americans are the prime target. But also if you're hitting other targets in other the Gulf States that, well, you've got to know what your aim. You have to be able to direct the missiles, the drones to it. And that's what the Chinese are really helping.

[Frank Gaffney]

I'm told the Russians are doing so as well. But this is unhelpful to us, obviously. What about this idea of, of them helping us with the Strait of Hormuz? What do you make of that?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, China's an enemy, and there's no reason they should be asked or that they should be involved in. May just be because President Trump was listing some countries, but China is on Iran's side. They want Iran to succeed. I suppose someone might say it's a devious way to sort of force the Chinese to come out against their main client. And on the side of the west, on the side, well, as at least the Americans, I think that's probably stretching things a little too much. At the end of the day, China's an enemy, and I don't think they're going to be sending anything to help out in the way that we would think they will. In fact, I think it's more likely they're going to, as they've already done, is cut a deal with the Iranians and tell them, let Chinese ships and ships going to China get through. And I think that's what we're likely to see. That's right. Yeah. Apparently there's. The Americans are letting ships go through with oil and a lot of that goes to China.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah. But Colonel, let me just ask you about this. The precedent here. There was a time when Somali pirates were a scourge off the east coast of Africa. And I remember whether that was Barack Obama or who, but somebody had the bright idea of encouraging the Chinese to send naval forces to the region to help patrol those waters. How exactly did that work out, sir?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, it gave the Chinese experience at operating naval forces a very, very long distance from China, and they've done, goodness, 40 patrols at least. And they've gotten, say, the experience. They need to go out somewhere far away and fight, and that means fight us as well. You know, whoever thought it was a good idea to encourage the Chinese to get that kind of experience? Well, really was not at the high end of the IQ spectrum.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, there was a time, as I recall, and I don't remember which combatant commander it was. I believe it was what we called at the time, think Panc thought that we ought to be training the Chinese in aircraft carrier operations. This is a kind of hardy perennial that military, military cooperation is going to benefit us. But didn't the Chinese take up a permanent position in Djibouti in the midst of all of this? And what has that done in terms of not only giving them operational experience but being able to, you know, have a permanent forward operating power projection capability?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, it's given, as you said, it's given them a base right in the that strategic part of the globe. The Chinese ship next to a Marine

[Frank Gaffney]

base, if I'm not mistaken.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

That's right. There's a U.S. marine.

[Frank Gaffney]

What could possibly go wrong with that?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

There's a Japanese base nearby, too. And the, the commander of the base, a Marine colonel, actually, when he first saw the Chinese show up and he was, you know, asking around and the French were telling him, the Djiboutians were telling him that this is where it's going to end with a Japanese Chinese base. He reported that and the State Department told him to shut up and stay in his lane. And then you had within a decade or so, you actually had now it's about at least a very strong battalion of PLA forces in Djibouti. It's a formal base. They have facilities that can handle anything in the Chinese Navy as well. And they tell you openly this is to protect our interests in this region. You always know exactly what you're going to get with the Chinese. It just helps if you listen to them.

[Frank Gaffney]

Screwed, I think, is the technical term for it, as a general proposition. Colonel, let me ask you about one other thing before we have to take a short break. In terms of this support to the Iranians, it's not apparently confined to, you know, intelligence. There seems to be a continuing effort by the Chinese to resupply the Iranians with military equipment. When we talk on the other side of the break, I want to ask you about the quality of it, but is that a thing? Are they getting stuff from China at the moment, do you know?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

It certainly seems so. And that includes a they actually completed drone sets, you know, coming in and the other.

[Frank Gaffney]

How are they getting there, Carl?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, you can actually bring it by land. You can it's, you know, by rail from, well, it's a sort of upper round through Russia down via the Caspian. It's, you have to see, if you look at the map, it's, oh, they do have a route for doing that,

[Frank Gaffney]

a circuitous route of overland. More on this in a moment. Colonel Grant Newsham is in the house. Praise God. We'll be right back with more. Stay tuned.

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[Martha Stewart]

is Martha Stewart from the Martha Stewart Podcast. Ever wonder how to make hosting look effortless? Here's a secret Getting ahead of the Mess with new Reynolds Kitchens Countertop Prep Paper Just lightly wet the counter beforehand so the paper grips and stays in place. Then lay down the Reynolds Kitchens countertop prep paper so drips and spills stay on the paper, not all over your kitchen counter. You can roll out dough, prep a party spread, or cook alongside family. When you're done, cleanup is as simple as lifting the paper and revealing that clean counter underneath. Effortless. You can use it for cooking and baking, prep and even crafting, especially when you need extra working space. Because when the mess is already handled, you can focus on what matters the food, the people and the moment. It may look effortless, but now you know it's Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper. Take a tip from me. Wet it, set it, prep it, done. Make it easy. Make it with Reynolds Kitchens Countertop prep paper available now in the Reynolds Wrap aisle in Walmart.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back. Colonel Grant Newsham is in the House. Praise the Lord. We are talking with him about China as we often do. He is the author of a very important bestselling book on the subject, When China Attacks. And Colonel, I did want to just follow up on this point of what the Chinese military equipment that is being made available to clients like the Iranians amounts to in terms of its technical performance in both Venezuela and in the war to date in Iran. It seems not to have measured up terribly well against at least forces like those of the United States and Israel. What is your assessment sir, of their kit?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, it hasn't worked out very well for the Venezuelans or the Iranians and that's something we should sort of breathe a sigh of relief and be grateful that we were able to get through those so easily. And it is a credit, I think to our own forces that we have some very clever people working for us. At the same time you say you don't get overconfident here. It could be partially the way it was employed and we are just talking about some limited weaponry or some systems which particularly the air defense components. But there's also was also talk of advanced anti ship cruise missiles being given to the Iranians. It's not clear if those were actually fired but the Chinese anti ship missiles are actually pretty good. And I think it's something that we should not say relax our guard. We shouldn't think, oh, because you know, Iran and Venezuela sort of went belly up that that will happen in a fight directly with the Chinese, you know, that you, it's, you know, they say so, you know, we're fortunate now but we have to take them very seriously.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah. And, and there's also a question, I think you would agree that have they been sold the best of the Chinese equipment too and if not, you know what we might find ourselves up against if God forbid, we do get into a shooting war with China.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Frank Gaffney]

Qualitatively different. I wanted to ask you about that prospect, Colonel. You're following this as closely as anybody. Again, generally speaking from close at hand, the concern I know you've expressed as recently as a very important committee on the present danger China, which you are an important member. We did a webinar recently in which we were exploring sort of what are the implications of this war for the Chinese. And I think you express concern that is shared by a number of us that one of the downsides of all of this may well be that we find ourselves with a war on our hands in this region. That would be the Middle east taking our eye off the ball or at least our capabilities down in the Pacific and perhaps even inviting aggression by the Chinese Communist Party. Your current assessment of all that?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

Well, I think we've still got enough forces in the region, you know, if it does come to an all out fight, to cause the Chinese a lot of harm. But the US Military, the Air Force, the Navy in particular, are not big enough to cover the entire globe. And if you move, well, they kind of can. But if you move forces from one place to another, you leave at least a thin spot. And that's just the nature of things. This comes of 30 years of, you know, having couldn't, you know, let our military erode because we won the Cold War, we would never fight a high end opponent again, and now we have to deal this with this.

[Frank Gaffney]

But we are, you're suggesting, not that that was true, but that was our

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

misconception, that stupidity to think that, you know, somehow the world was going to become a nice place. So we, in some ways we were, you know, that was the expression and democracy won. And you know, so you kind of resembles the Dutch boy, you know, with leaks in the dike, you know, you can poke, you know, you can plug a few of them, but you better hope some more holes don't spring. That's how you know. So we're thinly stretched. But if the Chinese were to pull the, pull the trigger and say, well, we're going to go, because the Americans are so committed in Iran, I'm not sure they're ready to sort of deal with the effects of effectively World War 3 and a complete cutoff in trade, financial dealings, technology, and treating them like an enemy, like we should have done years ago. I'm not sure they're ready for that. But our U.S. forces are simply are not big enough to cover the whole globe adequately. And that's been true for a long time.

[Frank Gaffney]

In that connection, Colonel, just very quickly, there are a couple of other elements in those calculations, of course, one of which would be the Japanese, and you have been based in Japan for much of your life, both in uniform and as a civilian. The President is importuning the Japanese Prime Minister, who I believe is visiting the White House today, if I'm not mistaken, to send forces to the Gulf to try to demonstrate, you know, their solidarity with us in protecting the Strait of Hormuz. You have opined in writing that that would be a good thing for the Japanese to do. The current prime minister is reluctant, it seems. Where do you think this stands and where is it likely to head from here, do you think?

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

I think if the Americans make their request clear and, you know, say force, you know, forcefully, I think Japan would contribute. I think they don't want to. It's just the nature of Japan and the Japanese is to avoid difficult things. They're trying to wriggle out of it. And we'll probably try to do some, make some minimal contribution. But it, this is very important for them because the bottom line is there's not just President Trump, but a lot of Americans who fly over, they fly over country, you know, whose children joined the military. They're saying, well, if you won't die for us or fight for us, why should we fight for you and die for you? And it's always been assumed for many years by our, you know, the best and brightest who run foreign policy in America that, well, we'll send the troops.

[Frank Gaffney]

Those are in quotes.

[Colonel Grant Newsham]

I think you said it right, if not contempt that, well, we'll just send the troops and doesn't matter if anyone helps us out and, and they'll do what they're told. Well, I think those days are over and I think Japan needs to recognize that. And I think there's a more of a sense of it than there's ever been that it's not just Donald Trump who's being mean to them, but Japan has a pretty good military, particularly their navy, and they have a contribution they could make. It's time that they actually go somewhere and take some risk. If they go and say, well, put us somewhere safe where we won't get hurt, well, that's just going to embarrass the Japanese and make us and also raise some questions about who on our side is actually running Japan policy. But they have a contribution to make. We have to ask them. And if we do, good things will happen. If we don't, well, it's going to leave a resentment, actually, and that the relationship will not be as solid as it otherwise would be.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, and that's especially true because the Japanese are, of course, a major consumer of what comes out of the straight up form. Liz Grant Newsom, we have to let you go. Thank you so much for your time. God bless you, my friend. Keep up the great work and come back to us very soon if you would. Hope the rest of you do the same next time. Until then, go forth and multiply.

[Martha Stewart]

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