SECURING AMERICA WITH FRANK GAFFNEY - NOVEMBER 15TH, 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: Securing America with Frank Gaffney – November 15th, 2025

Overview

In this episode of “Securing America,” host Frank Gaffney is joined by Captain James Fennell, US Navy (ret.), to analyze international threats facing the United States, with special focus on the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). The episode explores the CCP’s multifaceted challenge to global security, its alliances with anti-US actors, the erosion of Western institutions by infiltration, and the urgent need for renewed American vigilance at home and abroad. The hour-long conversation moves from Europe’s shifting demographics, through Asia-Pacific tensions, to cyber and AI warfare, and the United States’ strategic vulnerabilities in shipbuilding and infrastructure.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Europe’s Changing Security Landscape and Parallels to the US

• Frank Gaffney opens by recalling the 10th anniversary of the 2015 Paris terror attacks, warning that the security issues that traumatized France have only worsened, echoing similar vulnerabilities emerging in the US due to mass migration and a lack of vigilance.

  • Quote: “Failing to learn and respond appropriately to the lessons of past jihadism is an invitation to much more of it.” – Frank Gaffney [04:25]

• Captain James Fennell describes his personal observations living in Switzerland since 2015, witnessing waves of unvetted refugees, changing the cultural fabric and security environment in Europe.

  • He draws a parallel to US border security failings, especially “during the Biden years” [09:57].
  • Quote: “The countries of Europe are no longer the countries that people in America have in their mind’s eye... It’s really massively changed.” – James Fennell [07:45]
  • Quote: “I feel like the movie Winds of War...Something’s going to break.” [08:40]

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2. The Chinese Communist Party: The “Main Thing”

A. CCP’s Global Strategy and Alliances

• Gaffney and Fennell emphasize that the CCP’s threat is both direct and indirect, heavily interconnected with other anti-US actors such as radical Islamist groups and rogue nation-states (e.g., Iran).
  • The Belt and Road Initiative and the BRICS alliance exemplify China’s efforts to forge global coalitions against the West [10:00–12:52].
  • Quote: “The Chinese Communists are working closely with the various Islamic supremacists even though they’ve got large numbers of Muslims incarcerated in their own country.” – Frank Gaffney [12:00]
  • Fennell: Under Xi Jinping, China is carrying out a “concerted campaign to upend the international order” established after WWII [12:06]

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B. Escalating Diplomatic Confrontations — Japan Example

• Gaffney raises the “wolf warrior” diplomacy trend, focusing on a recent Chinese Consul General’s threat to Japan.
  • The Consul General in Osaka suggested Japan’s PM risked “getting her head cut off” if Japan interferes over Taiwan.
  • Fennell calls for a robust response, frustrated by the lack of U.S. condemnation. [17:09–19:39]
  • Quote: “We should have come out and been more clear to say this is not acceptable language in the diplomatic arena...” – James Fennell [18:36]
  • Quote: “These words…were clearly approved by Beijing, they’re unacceptable because of what they are signaling...the growing appetite…for a war with not just us, but Japan as well.” – Frank Gaffney [19:10]

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C. CCP Activities in the Americas – Venezuela as Case Study

• China (and Russia, Iran, North Korea) have increased operations in Latin America, especially Venezuela, supporting narco-terror groups and using the region as a launch pad for drugs and influence.

  • Fennell identifies an “alliance building” effort and references the return of the “Monroe Doctrine” as necessary [21:05–23:58].

  • Quote: “Those narco terrorists are being supported…by the national support from China, from Russia, from Iran and North Korea.” – James Fennell [22:00]

  • Quote: “It is a Monroe Doctrine. Don’t even think about it.” [23:32]

  • Gaffney describes the Venezuelan leadership as the “greatest drug cartel in the world” [23:58]

• Fennell notes PRC is aiding Iran in rebuilding military capabilities post-Israel strike. He reinforces the theme of “unrestricted warfare” dominated by the CCP [24:43–25:14].

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3. Cyber, Infrastructure, and “Unrestricted Warfare”

• Australia’s intelligence chief warns about CCP cyber attacks (“Salt Typhoon” and “Volt Typhoon”) on critical infrastructure—a warning echoed for the US.

  • Quote: “The references to Salt typhoon and Volt Typhoon were then reiterated by our own FBI…” – James Fennell [30:24]
  • Fennell points out the risks go beyond national targets, directly threatening individuals’ bank accounts, utilities, and commercial sectors.

• Discussion of how open borders facilitate the CCP’s ability to infiltrate (via students, soldiers, or businesspeople).

  • Fennell urges tighter scrutiny of Chinese arrivals and investments, especially near military installations, referencing reports of PLA soldiers entering via the southern US border [34:27–37:46].
  • Quote: “It only took a dozen people to take down the twin towers... it doesn’t take that many people to create severe havoc.” – James Fennell [35:37]

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4. American Vulnerabilities: Education, Demographics, and Espionage

• Concerns over the ongoing presence (and possible increase) of hundreds of thousands of Chinese students in US universities.

  • Calls for President Trump to reconsider positions that would permit continued (or expanded) access [33:30–34:27].

• Discussion of Chinese-owned properties near critical US military bases, and the potential for sabotage or espionage [35:37–38:24].

  • Quote: “There are maps out there...that show Chinese owners of property near US Military installations…” – James Fennell [36:33]
  • Gaffney notes all Chinese nationals are subject to PRC law, i.e., must act under CCP orders if required [37:46–38:24].

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5. The New “AI Cold War” and Risks to Freedom

• Major segment on the AI arms race with China, referencing the Wall Street Journal’s coverage and the strategic importance placed by both sides on maintaining a lead in chips and generative AI [43:14–47:16].

  • Quote: “He [Trump] is trying to make America great again and keep America first and not let the Chinese Communist Party have controls over these critical areas…” – James Fennell [46:40]

• Both speakers express concern that the US, in trying to ‘win’ the AI race, may adopt surveillance and control mechanisms akin to China’s “digital gulag.”

  • Quote: “We might actually become more like the Chinese...our advances in AI may lead us…to a very dark place, the Digital Gulag.” – Frank Gaffney [47:43]

• Gaffney worries about “Franken AI,” tech that goes beyond human control and threatens freedom [48:30–49:47].

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6. Shipbuilding: A National Emergency

• Fennell delivers a sobering net assessment: CCP’s shipbuilding industry is unrivaled—larger than Korea and Japan combined, dwarfing the US capacity 213-to-1 (per ONI).

  • China has outproduced the US Navy 4-5 to 1 for over a decade, with high quality and operational experience. [53:10–54:10]

• US Navy has been cut from 600 to fewer than 300 ships since the 1980s; current deployments stretch limited resources, with real dangers to the nation’s ability to project power and defend itself [54:10–58:36].

  • Quote: “We need to have a large navy that has excess capacity that can respond to crises and not take and destroy the future of our Navy and make us vulnerable at home.” – James Fennell [58:04]

  • Gaffney stresses the need for shipbuilding to become a consistent national priority, not a quick fix.

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Notable Quotes and Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Failing to learn and respond appropriately to the lessons of past jihadism is an invitation to much more of it.” – Frank Gaffney [04:25]

• “The countries of Europe are no longer the countries that people in America have in their mind’s eye... It’s really massively changed.” – James Fennell [07:45]

• “The Chinese Communists are working closely with ... various Islamic supremacists even though they've got large numbers of Muslims incarcerated in their own country.” – Frank Gaffney [12:00]

• “It is a Monroe Doctrine. Don’t even think about it.” – James Fennell [23:32]

• “These words…were clearly approved by Beijing, they’re unacceptable because of what they are signaling...the growing appetite…for a war with not just us, but Japan as well.” – Frank Gaffney [19:10]

• “It only took a dozen people to take down the twin towers... it doesn’t take that many people to really create severe havoc.” – James Fennell [35:37]

• “There are maps out there...that show Chinese owners of property near US Military installations…” – James Fennell [36:33]

• “He is trying to make America great again and keep America first and not let the Chinese Communist Party have controls over these critical areas that could threaten our national security and the global security.” – James Fennell [46:40]

• “We might actually become more like the Chinese...our advances in AI may lead us…to a very dark place, the Digital Gulag.” – Frank Gaffney [47:43]

• “China's shipbuilding industry is 213 times the size of the United States. And we see that reflected over the last two decades…” – James Fennell [53:23]

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Key Segment Timestamps

• 03:22 Frank Gaffney’s opening reflections on the Paris attacks and global terrorism
• 06:43 Captain Fennell’s view from Europe on demographic/cultural change
• 12:06 Introduction to China’s challenge to the post-WWII order
• 17:09 Wolf warrior diplomacy: China threatens Japan over Taiwan
• 21:05 China, Russia, Iran in Latin America (Venezuela)
• 24:43 PRC aiding Iran’s military recovery
• 29:54 Chinese cyber attacks on critical infrastructure (Australia, U.S.)
• 33:30 Debate on Chinese students in US universities
• 34:27 PLA soldiers and Chinese-owned property near US bases
• 43:14 The “new Cold War” in artificial intelligence
• 47:43 AI arms race and risks of surveillance/digital totalitarianism
• 53:10 Shipbuilding imbalance and strategic naval vulnerability

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Conclusion

This episode vividly details the myriad ways in which the US and her allies are under persistent and intensifying pressure from the Chinese Communist Party. With informed urgency, Gaffney and Fennell outline the dangers of strategic complacency—from infiltration and cyberwarfare to industrial decay and technological drift. Their discussion is a call to recognize the lessons of the past, heed present threats, and act resolutely to secure America’s future.

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For more, listen to the full episode or follow Frank Gaffney at X and usfuture.org for ongoing analysis.

Transcript

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[Captain James Fennell]

In April, and now I have customers out the door.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Hi.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Foreign welcome to securing America with me, Frank Afney. The program that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country we love against all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the glory of God and his kingdom. We're going to talk in this hour with one of our favorite guests, a man of extraordinary experience and acumen about what he calls rightly the main thing that would be the Chinese Communist Party and the threat that it represents to us. Before we get into that in the course of this full hour, I want to just set the stage, well, with a different piece of the threat environment, with some comments about what happened a decade ago, this very time, in fact, 10 years ago today, jihadists launched coordinated and murderous attacks against civilians across Paris. The experience deeply traumatized France, but will be commemorated by a country that has, if anything, become over the past decade, even more vulnerable to such Muslim terrorism. So, unfortunately, is ours. That's because in the intervening years, both France and America have allowed in large numbers of young men who practice the supremacist Islamic doctrine known as Sharia. It obliges them to use violence to impose Muslim rule worldwide. In France, civil war between such immigrants and the native population seems increasingly inevitable. And here, following Sharia adherent Zahran Mandani's election in New York, emboldened Islamists are insisting that their rule must replace our constitutional republic. Failing to learn and respond appropriately to the lessons of past jihadism is an invitation to much more of it. Well, those are my thoughts. For more of them, follow me at X. Frank Gaffney, and Of [e-mail], the website of our institute, Institute for the American Future. Support us there, please makes this program possible. We're going to turn to that aforementioned guest, Captain James Finnell, United States Navy, a man who, though he retired a number of years ago, made his mark while he was in the service and continues to do so as an analyst and commentator and author, both of periodical columns as well as book length treatments of, as I say, the main thing, what the threat posed by the Chinese Communist Party represents to us. In a book he co authored with Dr. Bradley Thayer entitled Embracing Communist China, he talked about what our decades long embrace of the CCP has translated into both in terms of their capabilities, military and otherwise, to wage war against our country and the extent to which they have successfully done so. Captain Fennell, welcome aboard. We are so glad to have you, and thank you for giving us a full hour of your very, very limited time. We so appreciate it.

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, thanks, Frank. It's great to be with you, as always.

[Frank Gaffney]

Now, you live on the continent of Europe, not too far from France. And so before we get into the main thing, I might just invite you to comment on concerns that I think you have about what's happening not just in France, but really through Europe, from Britain, I guess, to the Polish border, maybe Hungary. What are your thoughts, sir?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, Frank, I retired from the US Navy in 2015 and came here. My wife is Swiss, and we came here to central Europe. And when we came, it was right as the German government was opening up the floodgates, if you will, into Germany and elsewhere across Europe from all these, what they call, refugees. And they were visible to me right across the street, just 50, 75 yards away in the. In the old post office that used to be here. And then in that year of 2015, in the fall, my. My wife and I did go to Paris, and we happened to be at the same locations where those attacks occurred. So just a couple of weeks or a week or so before it happened, and. And then we were there a little bit later the next year. And it just. It's just gotten worse, progressively worse over the decade. And the countries of Europe are no longer the countries that people in America have in their mind's eye in terms of sitting out in the cafes and enjoying, you know, coffee or a drink and. Or going up into the mountains and thinking things are, you know, this kind of idiot, idyllic lifestyle. It's really massively changed. And yes, there are some people here that legitimately are trying to get out of really bad places, but there's been really to almost none, no vetting process. And so you're just seeing these wave after wave after wave for a decade of people coming across. And the culture is changing, and it is very alarming. And, you know, I'm an American, and I keep thinking about, at some point, I feel like the movie Winds of War, it's different. It's not 1930s in Germany, but it's the same feeling that something's going to break. And I'm very worried that the same kind of mentality has overcome the United States, especially during the Biden years, that we didn't pay attention to history. And, you know, whether we like it or not, whether it was an endless war that we shouldn't have done. The fact of the matter is United States of America fought long and hard and killed lots of people in the Middle East. And for whatever right or wrong reason, there's a lot of people that have it out for us and don't like us. And memories are long. And so people should not ignore that history and should not rest and think, oh, we're always going to be safe because we got the Pacific and Atlantic oceans protecting us. They did, as long as we kept.

[Frank Gaffney]

Our borders secure and we did not during those Biden years, massively. And Jim, I guess I just would underscore what you've said about learning the lessons of history. One of the lessons of history, talk about endless wars, is that these jihadis, for at least 1400 years since Muhammad's time have been at war with the rest of the planet and using violence, jihad as they call it, to conquer the rest of the world. And it starts oftentimes when they're not powerful enough to do it with force through more stealthy means, including now in this country, through elections. And I am very much of your mind, sir, that what we're seeing in Europe is very much what's in store for the United States. If we do not recognize that when these people talk about, and they have been doing so and much, much more aggressively since Zoran Mamdani's election, that Islam will rule America, that Sharia will be the law of our land as well. They're deadly serious about it and we ignore it at our peril. Jim, let me pivot now to what is your principal focus and area of great expertise? Communist China. It should be noted that the Chinese Communists are working closely with the various Islamic supremacists even though they've got large numbers of Muslims incarcerated in their own country. But in the Belt and Road Initiative and in the BRICS movement, the so called Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa grouping now expanded. There are quite a number of those folks who seem willing to make common cause with the Chinese Communists at our expense, possibly even leading to our destruction. Is that a fair comment, sir?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, Frank, I think that's very accurate that China's been working again over this past decade plus since Xi came to power especially. But it predates him in terms of their strategic intentions, but especially under Xi. And they have really ramped up and had a concerted campaign to upend the international order in the post World War II environment that Americans fought and died for and Russians did and others did. But the fact of the matter is we were the victors in World War II and the Allies that we had with us and we have not tended our our birthright and it's falling apart.

[Frank Gaffney]

We're going to pick up on that very point on the other side of a very short break. Stay tuned for much more with Captain James Fennell, United States Navy retired.

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[Frank Gaffney]

We're back. And so is Captain James Finnell, United States Navy, retired, the author, co author with Bradley Thayer of Embracing Communist China, America's Greatest Strategic Failure. And also a steady stream of superb comments, commentaries, I should say, and analyses, often at American greatness. Captain, you were just teeing up, as I hoped you would, the challenge that the Chinese Communists now represent to, well, not just our country, but to the post World War II world order that we brought about through our victory in that horrific conflict. I did want to just go through a couple of places where this is in evidence and get your, your reaction to some recent developments. Starting in Japan, we saw the Consul General to, I think it's Osaka from China making the most outrageous statement about the Japanese, the new Japanese Prime Minister the other day. And I wanted to get your take on what that's about and the response thus far from, well, not only the Japanese government, but our own.

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, Frank, I'm glad you characterized it that way. Starting off with the outrageous statements from this Chinese diplomat. We've heard of the Wolf Warrior diplomats, someone around that we know are calling them dog diplomats. Very rude, threatening statement about the prime Minister of Japan, essentially saying, you know, we should cut your head off if you stick your neck out into our business. What the prime minister of Japan simply questioned and said is, hey, if, if China were to ever invade Taiwan, that would have a national security implication for Japan and we would have to, you know, she didn't say anything else. She just said it would be a net, a survival event for us that we'd have to consider and, yeah, existential, and we'd have to pay attention to it. And the Chinese. Then this diplomat in Osaka came out and made these statements. And since then, the Chinese government has doubled down, tripled down. And even today in the Global Times has said, if you ever Japan get involved and use your military in response to anything that happens in Taiwan, then that's gloves off, essentially, and you will suffer the consequences and you will have crossed our red line. So they're not backing down. They're not acknowledging what their diplomat said was undiplomatic. And I'm still questioning why the diplomat's still in Japan. That's up to the Japanese politics. But we have some colleagues and people that are recommending that this person be pnged, made Persona non grata and kicked out of Japan. I think it should have happened already this week, should have happened early in the week. And the United States hasn't really said much about it, to my chagrin. I think we should have come out and been more clear to say this is not acceptable language in the diplomatic arena and we're not going to put up with this from bullies in China.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, Jim, and you know, you've been around diplomats long enough to know that it's not just that these were ill chosen words, they were clearly approved by Beijing, they're clearly being supported by Beijing and they're unacceptable because of what they are signaling, isn't it? It's not just, again, the rhetoric, it's what they're signaling is the growing appetite, I guess, for a war with not just us, but Japan as well.

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, it's a test. The Chinese Communist Party does this with every new American president. They do an event, they do something to test them and to test their resolve. And this is clearly a test for Prime Minister Takeichi and it has an implication for America. She's a treaty ally, Japan's a treaty ally. And if our treaty ally gets browbeaten in the first month or two in office by the Chinese Communist Party, that makes it much harder for us to deter China from doing any other kind of bad activity.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, Jim, let me pivot from East Asia and we could talk more about South China Sea, the Philippines, Australia, maybe we'll come back to those if we have time. But to our own hemisphere, the Chinese are evidently now inserting themselves increasingly in Venezuela, where, as you know, we have large now naval elements deployed offshore, shooting, in some cases vessels coming out of Venezuela headed north, reportedly with drugs on them. What do you make of what the Chinese have already done in our own hemisphere, but specifically what seems now to be upping the eddy in Venezuela?

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, I think we have largely ignored Latin America until this administration the second term. And now we're starting to peel the onion back and starting to see some of the corruption and the infiltration by China, Russia, other players, and so Iran as well. And so I think what we need to recognize now is that China has been laying the seeds down there, whether it's Panama or sending their hospital ship through the Caribbean, as they've done several times, or you know, their diplomatic negotiations to establish, you know, sale of oil from Venezuela to China. All of this is alliance building between this, you know, nexus of Russia, China, Iran, in North Korea. And so we have to be very concerned about that. And I think President Trump and his team have been very clear. We're under attack from narco terrorists. And those narco terrorists are being supported through their own greed and infrastructure that they have as narco terrorists. But they're also being backed by the national support from China, from Russia, from Iran and North Korea and other terrorist type organizations that go to Venezuela for training. So I think it's clear what we need to do. And I know there's a lot of angst here in Europe about sending the Gerald Ford carrier strike group down to this area. But my answer to my European colleagues is one, the Gerald Ford spent three months or so out there already in the medium, you know, providing support. You all have several carriers from the Royal Navy, the French Navy, the Italian Navy, the Spanish Navy. You have your own capabilities, so maybe you can patrol your own waters for a while and let us deal with this very serious threat to our homeland. And that doesn't mean we ignore Europe, it doesn't mean we ignore Asia. But it means that you can't deal with those other external threats until you have a secure southern border. And you don't have people sending, as the President said, sending drugs into the country to kill Americans. And we know that they've killed hundreds of thousands of Americans with Chinese laced opioids and fentanyl and other things of that nature. So it's an existential threat to us. It's killed hundreds of thousands of Americans and we need to put a stop to it and we need to send a signal back to Beijing and back to Moscow and Tehran. Hey, don't even think about it. It is a Monroe Doctrine. Don't even think about it.

[Frank Gaffney]

Jim, it's been said on this program, I think authoritatively that the people running Venezuela at this point are really the greatest drug cartel in the world. They're Soleil Group I think it's called, it's now, you know, sort of masquerading as the government of Venezuela, but it's all about drug trafficking. So you're right, it's right at the heart of this threat to us. Jim, very quickly you mentioned Iran a couple of times. I understand that the Chinese are actively helping rebuild the Iranians military power after it was substantially degraded by the Israelis. What can you say about that in 45 seconds?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, Frank, obviously Israel and the United states in that 12 day war from Israel especially put a big hurt on Iran's, especially their air defense capabilities. Our attacks on the nuclear facilities set them back years. And so we shouldn't be surprised that Beijing is now worming their way in to try to help them reconstitute their, their defensive capabilities and their offensive capabilities. And we should be watching that and go ahead.

[Frank Gaffney]

Maybe not be surprised, but we should be taking note of it and recognizing that this is yet another dimension of their unrestricted warfare against our country and our vital interests. Jim, we're going to come back and talk more about all of that on the other side of a short break. I hope you'll stay tuned folks for more with Captain James Finnell.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Foreign. So is one of our favorite guests, Captain James Finnell, United States Navy, retired, a man of extraordinary accomplishment in uniform, but one who has thankfully continued to devote himself to public service in an informal capacity as one of the analysts and commentators and organizers associated not least with our committee on the Present Danger China, for which we are very grateful, Captain. We were talking about some of the places that the Chinese have been operating around the world at our expense. Clearly part of the sort of multi front capability that they've been anxious to have against this country and the free world more generally. A place we just sort of alluded to there a moment ago, but that I would like to just use as a segue to another theater in which the Chinese are operating, namely here. You circulated in your Red Storm Risen group a very important news item about. I believe it was the chief of intelligence for Australia warning his countrymen that the Chinese have been preparing for and actually engaged in attacks on Australia's critical infrastructure through two operations, one known as Salt Typhoon and another aspect Volt Typhoon. In passing he sort of acknowledged that those attacks were also aimed at our critical infrastructure here as well. Talk a little bit about what that kind of behavior represents, sir, and its implications, especially inside America.

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah. The OSDO intelligence chief, I think his name is Burgess, his comments last week about the Chinese infiltration, especially in the cyber arena, into their government is remarkable given that they have a Labor government that's in charge and their prime minister has been trying to, you know, restart engagement with the PRC for economic reasons. And China has been, Trevor, Trevor Louden.

[Frank Gaffney]

Says he's a full on communist for.

[Captain James Fennell]

What, that their ambassador to the United States is a friend of China's as well. Kevin Rudd. So to have the AO chief come out and make this statement is really, I think people need to, and you have pay attention to what's being said. And the, the references to Salt typhoon and, and Volt Typhoon were then re reiterated by our own FBI and CISA, this Cyber Security and Infrastructure Security Agency. That's a U.S. government agency. So FBI, CISA came out this week and said, oh by the way, yeah, this is happening and we're being attacked by the Chinese. Now they deny it, but these are the same people that deny that they were sending fentanyl to the United States and a whole host of things. So I think.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, and have now promised Jim that they're going to help us curb the flow of fentanyl.

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, that was, I don't know how.

[Frank Gaffney]

Many times they've promised that.

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, they're going to restrict, they said when it comes to precursor chemicals, they're going to now have a review process and they're not going to allow those chemicals to go to the United States and other countries. And this is after eight years of promising the first Trump administration and the Biden administration, even the Obama administration promising America that they were not allowing that to come out. And now all of a sudden they've come up with this new scheme so that they're, they lie at every turn. And the cyber attacks are very important because it's, it's critical infrastructure, but it, people in America should be very concerned because it can be your own bank account, your own, your own mortgage, your own savings account, your own investments in.

[Frank Gaffney]

The stock market to say nothing.

[Captain James Fennell]

Power. Yeah, right. So it's a very real threat. And we, we have, you know, we have cyber agencies and in Cyber Command and things in America, but we need to be the people that I talk to say we're being outmatched and we're being out gunned because they have so many people and they're focused on this. And so the warnings from the ASIO chief and our own government should cause people to say what are we doing to harden our infrastructure and make sure that China's Chinese cyber actors can't get inside our lifelines. And one of the ways to do that is to review who are we letting into the country. Because it's a lot easier to do cyber activity once you're already here in the United States and you're in our networks physically as opposed to having to have it come across in packets, across cables on the sea or through space. And so there's a lot of reasons why we should be asking ourselves who's coming here from the People's Republic of China and what are they doing and where are they at?

[Frank Gaffney]

Speaking of which, Jim, I understand that President Trump has indicated that he is still open to the idea of having 600,000 Chinese students in our country. Are you hearing that, sir?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah. I saw the interview with Laura Ingraham and my only statement is, is I'm a strong supporter of the President. We've talked about this in previous episodes and he knows what he's doing. But sometimes it's worth for the American people to stand up and say, hey, Mr. President, we have great concern about this and we don't think you should do it and we'd ask you to reconsider that. So that's what I would say to him. He may have another plan, he may have another reason for this, he may have another deal working where he's getting something from Xi in the short term so that we can get off of being under the threat of rare earth elements or pharmaceuticals or some other thing that China has been telling him behind the scenes that they're going to do and that, you know, he doesn't Want to push them over the edge right at this time. So I don't. I'm not privy to those things. But if all things are equal, I'd say get. Get them out.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah. Starting with the 300 plus or so that we've thousand, that is, that we already have here, let alone adding, you know, twice that number. Jim, let me just ask you one other element. Speaking of, you know, people that we don't want here, there are some number of Chinese soldiers, evidently, that came across that open border we talked about earlier in connection with the jihadis. Do you have any particular number that you think is accurate? Based on official estimates, I've heard them ranging from, you know, 10,000 to 200,000. I'd be interested in your better guess on the number. But more to the point, Jim, what given what you've just said about the unrestricted warfare against us here at home and the various ways in which it's easier to do it if you're here, whether it's cyber or physical attacks or what have you, how serious a problem does that represent? Even if it's just 10,000, let's say.

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, I mean, I think the state. Somebody's made the statement already it only took a dozen people to take down the twin tower. So I think, yeah, I mean, so it doesn't take that many people to really create severe havoc and to have a dramatic impact on America, American citizens and their safety, whether it's attacking or disrupting a nuclear power plant or, you know, having something happen in a major sporting event or some kind of event that impacts rail or commercial trucking, all kinds of things that they could do to create havoc. One of the things that's got my attention right now is this reporting that's come out this week that came out in the Daily Caller and then was, came from State Armor, Michael Lukey, that was reporting on this presence of a Chinese, a trailer park that's off of Whiteman Air Force Base in Missouri on the end of the Runway. That's a trailer park that's owned by the Chinese. And it has some very serious implications because those are very important. That's a very important military base for our national security in the air portion of our nuclear triad or bomber force. We have other installations that are, you know, near Chinese. There's, there's maps out there. People have done some of the homework, detailed work that shows Chinese owners of property near US Military installations. I'm not sure why that is not being dramatic. That should be at the top of the list of things that Our governments looking into and verifying that they're not part of the Chinese Communist Party. Not everybody that comes from China is a hardcore communist. But we don't have that kind of surety of who these people are. Just like we don't have exact numbers of how many PLA soldiers came across the southern border during the Biden years. Why not? Why aren't we getting that information or what are we doing to follow up on that?

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, and Jim, as you know, even if they're not hardcore communists, as you put it, they're all subject to Chinese law which requires them to do the bidding of the CCP if called upon to do so. No.

[Captain James Fennell]

Right. I would guess, I would say there's probably some people that have come here that have denounced the PRC and say I'm never going back and I have no association with them. I mean, there's there, I think there are people like that. But the ones that you're talking about that come here that say they're going back, they are under direct manipulation and control of the People's Republic of China, whether it's on them personally or their families back at home.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, and that's the key point. Even if you don't think you're going back, if you do have family there. You know, they've had these overseas police service centers, as they call them inside this country. And the service they provide apparently is connecting people who are here and of interest to them to family members who are seemingly in custody and maybe about to have a very bad time of it. That's the kind of extortion that I think we can associate obviously with the Chinese Communists and to our great detriment perhaps, if such individuals are weaponized against us. Jim, we have to take another break. When we come back, I want to visit with you a little bit about something that's being called a new cold war involving artificial intelligence. What that's likely to translate into, and if it is such a cold war, what are we going to do to prevail in it and what might the costs associated with doing so be? That and much more with Captain James Finnell this full hour conversation. I'll be right back.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Foreign we're back. So is Captain James Finnell, United States Navy, retired, a career naval intelligence officer who served with great distinction in uniform and continues to serve our country, albeit from a forward deployed position, to try to assure that we are clear about the threat we face from this Chinese Communist Party, its military, the People's Liberation army, and more generally, its economic, political, diplomatic and other unrestricted warfare capabilities. And Jim, I was just teeing up before the break that we are being told that a competition between the United States and China that has evolved in recent years, well, months or certainly a year or two, amounts to a new cold war between the two countries, one that is at very high stakes, perhaps at least as high, if not more than the one that we had with the Soviet Union in which our nuclear forces competed for strategic advantage. What are your thoughts about what's going on in this competition with China? And does it rise, do you think, to that level of a cold war? Or will it?

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, Frank, this issue is dominating the news in Terms of Wall Street Journal just had a piece three days ago talking about this. The President talks about the need to have the latest and greatest chips and prohibiting China from getting that same kind of technology. He's keeping the tech bros, if you will. The tech giants. Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang close inside the Trump orbit to maintain what appears at this point to be our technological advantage in generative artificial intelligence over the People's Republic of China. But as the Wall Street Journal reported, you know, China has a kind of a history of doing that. They let the United States spend the billions to get the technology and then they steal it and then they adapt it and mass produce it like we saw with this electromagnetic aircraft launch system on board their, their newest commissioned aircraft carrier, the Fujian. So they have a history.

[Frank Gaffney]

Tick tock and so many other examples.

[Captain James Fennell]

Right. So the question is right now is where is China in this race with us? How important is it? Or is this. You know, we kind of a decade ago had a similar kind of concern about cyber and cyber and the web and, you know, things of that nature. Now we're talking about AI. It's generating trillions of dollars in potential value. Nvidia is over 5 trillion, I think. I mean, so it's, it's, it's really remarkable. It's outpacing the, the, the cyber investments that were made in the late 2000 or late, you know, the 98, 99 Silicon Valley tech startups and the money that went into that, it's outpaced what Tesla did. And in, in terms of electric vehicles. This AI investment is really big. So we need to be careful of it. Not just from the technological standpoint, but we also have to make sure that we're not investing our money and America's money into something that could all be a house of cards as well. So there's a lot of promise there that AI is going to be involved with everything that we do. We're seeing these ads now for robots that are going to come and live with you and help you and assist you. So there's a lot of aspiration there. I'm kind of, I'm not, I'm not a Luddite per se. I mean, I was in the Navy and involved with lots of new technology, but I'm a kind of a Missouri kind of a person. Show me the money, show me the actual product. So I think we need to pay attention to it. We need to guard against China getting ahead of us. I was very encouraged to hear the President, I know it took a lot of Heat about giving a pardon to somebody that was involved with cyber and bitcoin and cryptocurrencies. And I don't know that individual. The President said, I didn't know that individual, but he knew that the guy was unfairly treated in the previous administration. That was one point. But the other point, and this is the part that the mainstream media cut off, is the President said, hey, this is important, this cryptocurrency. It's going to be important for our future. And we can't let China get ahead of us. I heard the President say those words, we can't let China get ahead of us in this technology. And I feel like that's where he comes at a lot of these things. Rare earth elements, artificial intelligence, military, everything. He is trying to make America great again and keep America first and not let the Chinese Communist Party have controls over these critical areas that could threaten our national security and the global security.

[Frank Gaffney]

And I know you take great heart from that kind of statement, Jim, and I think properly. So, by and large, I do want to just ask you a question, and probably neither of us are terribly steeped in this, but I've been listening to our friend Joe Allen of War Room fame, the author of Dark Aion.

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[Frank Gaffney]

He is of the view, I think, and I'm pretty much of it as well, that where we might find real peril is that in our competition to stay ahead of the Chinese in this arena, we might actually become more like the Chinese. Specifically, this whole idea of idea, I should say, of IDs, digital IDs, that is, where everything can be essentially tracked and monitored and surveilled and controlled, basically. Our friend Reggie Littlejohn calls it, you know, the Digital Gulag. And as you go down this road, I think that Wall Street Journal article that you referred to talked about concerns that we are already at the point where these digital advances, these artificial intelligence advances, has gotten them perhaps beyond human control, that we might well wind up in a position where we're ahead of the Chinese, but we're ahead of them going into a very dark place, the Digital Gulag. Jim, we have to take a final break, and I want to get your thoughts on that, if you care to. But I also have some other things we want to talk about. But I just have to say I worry about Franken AI, as I call it, things that are really not only beyond our control, but very, very dangerous to our security and our freedoms. And that's a race I'm concerned about winning. In fact, Stay tuned, folks.

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[Frank Gaffney]

We're back for the final installment of this very, very important conversation with one of the most profoundly, I think, intelligent.

[Captain James Fennell]

And.

[Frank Gaffney]

Influential leaders on the challenge we face from the Chinese Communist Party. That would be Captain James Fennell, United States Navy, co author of Embracing Communist China, America's Greatest Strategic Failure and Jim, I want to pivot from AI. I think we both share concerns about where this may be headed to something else that is a competition for sure. And the Chinese have got a tremendous head start in shipbuilding. The President has made it a priority he's working various deals including one with South Korea to have them invest massively in our Philadelphia shipyard for the purposes of building nuclear powered submarines there as a means of trying to up our game. Give us if you would kind of a net assessment of where we are on shipbuilding and just how vital it is that we get back in the game.

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, Frank, I mean the bottom line is that China's shipbuilding industry is, is the largest and the biggest shipbuilding industry in the world. It's number one in terms of production and scheduled orders and backlog of orders. Bigger than South Korea, bigger than Japan. Those are the big three United States. The Office of Naval Intelligence a year ago unclassified document was released PowerPoint slide that basically said China's shipbuilding industry is 213 times the size of the United States. And we see that reflected over the last two decades where the United States Navy has basically been outproduced by the PRC in warships 4 or 5 to 1 every year for the last decade and a half at least. And it's also in tonnage. Now it's not just in numbers of ships, but it's in tonnage. It's a number of anti ship cruise missiles. It's across the board.

[Frank Gaffney]

So we are quality issue as well, sir.

[Captain James Fennell]

What's that?

[Frank Gaffney]

The quality of their ships as well.

[Captain James Fennell]

Their quality is, is high. Their sustainment rates are high. They're going out to the Gulf of Aden and steaming around. They're steaming out in the central Pacific. So they're operating at sea like we, we do. Maybe not to the extent that we do, but they are a blue water Navy today. So now this administration's come in, the new Secretary of the Navy felon and other this shipyard infrastructure optimization program that was talked about even today or yesterday in Indiana, they're trying to introduce competition into the shipbuilding industries. So how can we do that? Well, we can introduce it domestically and we can try to incentivize people in America to build ships, but that's pretty hard because there's not much incentive there. It's not a big place to make money. You have to have the land, you have to have all these regulations approved or passed through all these regulations or we can try to go with some of our allies and seek out their expertise and their excess capacity to help us out with that. And so to that extent, I think the President's on the right track. This administration's on the right track and they announced that they're going to have South Korean shipyard help in Philadelphia to help us start regenerating US Navy warships or commercial ships, I think at first. But there's also something was said here in the last couple of weeks about, you know, giving access or allowing the South Koreans to join the nuclear submarine force. We'll see where that goes. I have concerns like you about, you know, how do we share that information? Because heretofore, even allowing Australia into that with the Aukus agreement was very, very much a, you know, a very, there was a lot of trepidation. There still is in the, in the, in the US about it. And now to ask or say we're going to bring in South Korea, not that we distrust every South Korean, but the people that are leading South Korea today are clearly aligned or aligning themselves with the People's Republic of China. And we need to be very, very concerned about that. So we have a challenge. We have to build more ships. There's no other way to say it. This nation's national security depends upon a robust and competitive shipbuilding industry to build not only commercial ships and have that capacity that allows our economy to flourish. But we, more importantly, we need our navy to be restored. Our navy has been decimated over the last 35 years. Cut in half from 600 ships to less than 300. And we are in a very dangerous place where we cannot even defend our shores. Yes, we've got a big carrier strike group down off of Venezuela, but there's going to be a price to pay for that extended deployment down there and the long term effects on the 10 or 11 aircraft carriers that we have left and what does that mean for them and their rotations and when they were supposed to go on deployment. And it's not just the people and the scheduling, which is a massive concern, a massive effort to make sure these now all line up afterwards. But it gets down to the very thing. Every one of those nuclear aircraft carriers has a nuclear power plant and has a shaft and the shaft is designed to have so many revolutions. And when those revolutions are exceeded, because you're sending the carriers to places that were not on a kind of a national schedule that we were thinking ahead, which is what navies are for. They're supposed to be flexible. But that puts an undue strain on the life expectancy of those platforms and where are the new ones coming from. And when we have problems with the, you know, with the Ford being delayed for her fielding like it was for several years, it just, it just compounds the problem. We don't have excess capacity in our national defense when it comes to the maritime domain. And we need to do that just like we needed in the chips and these other areas that we've talked about cybersecurity and infrastructure security and military base infrastructure security. We need to have a large navy that has excess capacity that can respond to crises and not take and destroy the future of our Navy and make us vulnerable at home.

[Frank Gaffney]

Captain, there's a lot of food for thought there. As always, you're drawing on a lifetime of experience as a. As an actual operator in the Navy, not just as an academic looking at the data and the spreadsheets and so on. And what experience has clearly taught you, and I think should be of importance to all of us, is when you're in this kind of arrears, shall we say, you have got to make a national priority of turning things around, like aircraft carriers. It isn't done overnight. It has to be done in a sustained and disciplined way, to be sure. But your clarity on all of these issues, Captain, is so appreciated, as is your visit that's with us from week upon week, as well as in connection with our various webinars of the committee on the Present Danger China. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of it. Keep coming back if you would, sir. I hope the rest of you come back tomorrow. Till then, go forth and multiple.

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This is Jim.

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Hello.

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Jim started advertising with iHeartRadio way back.

[Captain James Fennell]

In April, and now I have customers out the door.

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And this is Sarah.

[Frank Gaffney]

Hi.

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She started putting a portion of her marketing dollars in podcasting back in June.

[Frank Gaffney]

Business is booming. That's why I'm working on a Saturday.

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