Podcast Summary: Securing America with Frank Gaffney — November 22, 2025

Podcast: Real America’s Voice
Host: Frank Gaffney
Guests: Mark Krikorian (Center for Immigration Studies), Rod Martin (Institute for the American Future)
Date: November 22, 2025
Episode Theme:
An in-depth discussion on U.S. immigration policy and practice post-2025 Trump administration, its impact on national security, the transformation and challenges within the conservative movement—especially around U.S.-Israel relations—and implications of American grand strategy vis-à-vis China.

Overview

This episode explores two major themes:

1. The state of America’s southern border and overall immigration enforcement under the new Trump administration.
2. The internal divisions within the American conservative movement, focusing on Israel policy, the role of foreign influence (notably from Qatar), the rise of anti-Semitic voices among American youth and influencers, and U.S. policy toward China.

Frank Gaffney leads probing conversations with immigration expert Mark Krikorian and policy analyst Rod Martin, unpacking pressing security, cultural, and geopolitical issues significant for American listeners.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Securing the Southern Border: What Changed?

Guest: Mark Krikorian, Center for Immigration Studies

• Dramatic Drop in Illegal Crossings:
  “The number of apprehensions there is…the lowest ever recorded… We now have eyes on the whole border day and night in a way that’s never existed before.” — Mark Krikorian [04:10–05:00]
• Role of Policy vs. Legislation:
  “We didn’t really need new laws. We needed a new president… Biden was just letting everybody go. Once you stop that, the only people who are going to keep trying are the real hard cases. And…you don’t have the kind of flood that we did for four years under Biden.” — Mark Krikorian [07:28–08:20]
• Current State of the Border Wall:
  • The wall is being filled in and surveilled, but perfection is neither required nor possible for every mile.
  • Technology—cameras, sensors, blimps—has enhanced border monitoring.
    “The wall itself isn’t some magic thing…It’s a tool. And…there’s still room for improvement.” — Mark Krikorian [05:48–06:49]
• Enforcement and “Self-Deportation”:
  • Significant reduction in illegal residents due largely to “self-deportation” as enforcement increases and chances of remaining in the country diminish. “Most of it…is people leaving on their own…illegal immigrants who were kind of concluding that the party’s over and they better get out quick.” — Mark Krikorian [08:59–10:00]
• Employer Enforcement as the “Missing Piece”:
  • Urges government to prosecute employers breaking the law, which both deters future infractions and signals the seriousness of enforcement. “They need to perp walk some employers…It needs to become clear that the rules are now what the law says rather than the kind of wink and nod…non-enforcement that prevailed in the past.” — Mark Krikorian [10:00–11:41]

Notable Quote

“We didn’t really need new laws. We needed a new president.” — Mark Krikorian [07:28]

2. Sanctuary Cities and Internal Security

• Sanctuary Policies Protect Criminals:
  • Sanctuary cities limit ICE’s ability to remove criminal aliens by refusing to inform or transfer custody after arrests, prioritizing the protection of illegal immigrants—including those arrested for serious crimes. “It’s specifically designed to protect criminals. And it’s outrageous.” — Mark Krikorian [15:46–16:30]
• Majority Live in Sanctuary Jurisdictions:
  • Over half of America’s illegal immigrants reside in sanctuary areas, complicating ICE’s task.
• Politicization and Extremism in Urban Governance:
  • Discussion of newly elected officials (e.g., Zoran Mamdani in NYC) openly supporting radical sanctuary policies, which may create constitutional crises.

Notable Quote

“A slight majority of all the illegal immigrants live in sanctuary jurisdiction. So how is ICE supposed to do its job…if the main way that illegal immigrants come in contact with the authorities is foreclosed to them?” — Mark Krikorian [16:30]

3. National Security Risks: From Jihadists to Chinese Agents

• Difficulty Identifying Bad Actors:

  • The challenge in distinguishing ordinary migrants from spies, terrorists, or criminals necessitates robust, across-the-board enforcement. “If we knew which ones they were…we have no idea. …You have to have enforcement across the board if you’re going to weed out those people.” — Mark Krikorian [19:33–21:03]

• Potentially Thousands of Chinese Nationals Inside U.S.:

  • Hypothetical numbers of clandestine Chinese military personnel present, but exact figures unknown.

• Drug & Human Trafficking:

  • Fentanyl traffic is down; cartels attempt to replace it with meth, heroin, etc.
    “If it’s harder to get across the border, it’s going to be harder to move dope and other things…” — Mark Krikorian [23:18–23:58]

4. Conservative “Fratricide” Over Israel Policy

Guest: Rod Martin, Institute for the American Future

• Theological and Political Split:

  • Noted fratricidal division among conservatives over U.S. and Christian support for Israel. “We have a lot of friends who are theologically committed to Israel…. For some of our pastors…to take this vehement anti-Israel position because they don’t agree with Mike Huckabee’s eschatology just boggles my mind.” — Rod Martin [30:35–32:30]

• Arguments about Control & Influence:

  • Refutes claims that “the tail is wagging the dog” (“Israel controlling U.S. policy”), and rebuts myths of undue Israeli influence.
  • Points out U.S. support for Israel is mutually strategic, with much aid remaining in the U.S., supporting domestic industries and technological cooperation.

• Qatar and Other Foreign Influence:

  • Qatar’s outsized financial efforts to sway U.S. policy and divisive narratives within American right-wing circles. “If Qatar weren’t doing it, George Soros or Reed Hoffman would be… Qatar is ahead. Saudi Arabia is ahead. The Bahamas are ahead. Everybody is ahead of Israel [in foreign influence spending].” — Rod Martin [34:57–36:10]

• Modern Antisemitism:

  • Observes that anti-Israel and anti-Semitic rhetoric among some new right-wing influencers is reminiscent of historic antisemitism. “The kinds of arguments being marshaled sound like they come straight, straight out of Goebbels and it’s just horrifying to watch.” — Rod Martin [36:10–37:20]

Notable Quote

“A Jew is anybody who wants to be a Jew, just like a Baptist is anybody who wants to be a Baptist. We don’t do a DNA check on Baptists. That’s just silly.” — Rod Martin [36:40]

5. Youth and the Lure of Extreme Influences

• Softball Interviews & Dangerous Ideas:
  • Criticizes Tucker Carlson's unchallenging interviews with figures like Nick Fuentes, who espouses dangerous, extremist ideologies masked as populism. “All [Tucker] did was throw softballs at Fuentes…A retarded fifth grader could have interviewed him better than Tucker did.” — Rod Martin [44:22]
• Marketplace of Ideas vs. Platforming Extremism:
  • Advocates letting dangerous ideas be exposed and discredited, but calls out failure to rigorously challenge them in high-profile interview settings. “I don’t have any problem with Tucker platforming Nick Fuentes. I just wish Tucker had actually interviewed him with the vigor, shall we say, that he did Ted Cruz.” — Rod Martin [42:46]

6. U.S. Grand Strategy: The Two-Front Approach to China

• Hemispheric Security as Foundation:

  • Trump and his advisers are refocusing on securing the Western Hemisphere (reducing foreign—especially Chinese and Russian—footprints in Latin America and strategic locations like Panama and Greenland). “If you can’t handle your own backyard, you can’t handle anything else. …We have let China and Russia and Iran…have meaningful dangerous presences in places like Venezuela and Cuba, which is just unconscionable.” — Rod Martin [46:37–47:37]

• Emulating Reagan’s Approach:

  • Draws parallel to Reagan’s strategy against the USSR: constraint, economic pressure, creating alternatives in vulnerable supply chains (rare earths, pharmaceuticals).
  • Details administration efforts to reduce dependence on Chinese supply chains by:
    • Supporting U.S., Australian, and Greenland mining and rare earth processing
    • Domestic manufacturing incentives and stockpiling
    • Working with private industry (e.g., Apple, GM, Tesla) to diversify away from Chinese sources

• Leveraging Economic Power:

  • Highlights higher tariffs on Chinese goods and evidence of Xi and Putin responding to U.S. economic and diplomatic moves in both the energy and manufacturing sectors.

Notable Quote

“What Reagan did…was not eliminate the Soviet Union by bombing…the plan was to bankrupt them, which he did… I think Trump is aware that there are certain things that we have allowed ourselves to be dependent on China for that we’re not going to be able to decouple from overnight. And so the continued dialogue makes sense at least until that point at which we can.” — Rod Martin [52:12]

Memorable Moments & Quotes (With Timestamps)

• On Border Security:

  “We now have eyes on the whole border day and night in a way that’s never existed before…we really do know what’s happening at the border.”
  — Mark Krikorian [04:10–05:00]

• On Employer Enforcement:

  “They need to perp walk some employers…It needs to become clear that the rules are now what the law says rather than…the kind of wink and nod…non enforcement that prevailed in the past.”
  — Mark Krikorian [10:00–11:41]

• On Sanctuary Policies:

  “It’s specifically designed to protect criminals. And it’s outrageous.”
  — Mark Krikorian [15:46]

• On Fratricide in Conservatism:

  “For some of our pastors…to take this vehement anti-Israel position because they don’t agree with Mike Huckabee’s eschatology just boggles my mind.”
  — Rod Martin [30:35]

• On Foreign Influence:

  “[Qatar]…they have interests here against people who are outspending them dramatically to try to turn American opinion against them. They’re spending money to try to keep people in support of them…that’s called a marketplace of ideas.”
  — Rod Martin [34:57–36:10]

• On Tucker Carlson’s Interviewing:

  “All [Tucker] did was throw softballs at Fuentes…A retarded fifth grader could have interviewed him better than Tucker did.”
  — Rod Martin [44:22]

• On U.S.-China Economic Strategy:

  “We’re moving aggressively on this. They’re not going to be able to hold this over our heads much longer.”
  — Rod Martin [54:30]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro & Framing of Border Issues: [02:23–03:37]
• Border Security Changes with Trump: [04:10–06:49]
• Employer Enforcement & Self-Deportation: [08:32–11:41]
• Sanctuary City Impact: [14:24–17:58]
• National Security and Chinese/Jihadist Threats: [17:58–22:36]
• Drug Trafficking Update: [23:18–23:58]
• Conservative Movement & Israel: [28:07–37:26]
• Qatar’s Influence, U.S.-Israel Relations: [34:57–37:26]
• Youth & Platforming Extremism (Nick Fuentes): [41:01–45:04]
• Trump’s Hemispheric and China Strategy: [46:03–48:53]
• Rare Earths, Supply Chains, Tariffs: [52:12–58:10]

Conclusion

This episode provides a comprehensive and candid exploration of both border security and broader national security issues facing the U.S. in late 2025. It details measurable successes and persistent challenges in immigration enforcement, the internal schisms of the conservative movement around Israel and foreign influence, and outlines strategic shifts in America’s approach to emerging global rivals, particularly China. Guests Mark Krikorian and Rod Martin inject deep institutional insight and frank assessments, with memorable moments and sharp critiques, making this a must-listen for those interested in American security, policy, and geopolitical strategy.