SECURING AMERICA WITH FRANK GAFFNEY - OCTOBER 25TH, 2025

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Securing America with Frank Gaffney"

Episode Date: October 25, 2025
Podcast Network: Real America’s Voice (iHeartPodcasts)
Host: Frank Gaffney
Featured Guests: Sam Faddis (CIA veteran), Doug Burton (TruthNigeria.com), Dee Dee Loggeson (Save the Persecuted Christians), Captain James Fennell (USN, Ret.)
Episode Theme:
Analyzing global security threats from jihadism and narco-states to Chinese expansionism, with a sharp focus on the dangers these pose to American and Western security and values.

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Episode Overview

This episode functions as an "owner's manual" for protecting America against foreign and domestic threats. Frank Gaffney leads in-depth conversations with national security experts examining:

• U.S. policy dilemmas in the Middle East, especially regarding Hamas and Gaza
• Internal security risks from political candidates linked to radical ideologies
• The ongoing genocide of Christians in Nigeria (and U.S. policy response)
• The threat posed by Venezuela as a narco-state
• Assessing the Chinese Communist Party’s consolidation of power and global ambitions

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Middle East: Gaza, Hamas, and U.S. Policy

[01:00–10:43]

Context:

• President Trump’s consideration of asking Israel to release Marwan Barghouti, a jihadist leader, to foster a new order in Gaza post-Hamas.
• The hosts and guests debate whether this strategy signals weakness or facilitates peace.

Insights:

• Sam Faddis: Strongly opposes releasing Barghouti, warning it would embolden jihadists and lead to Hamas regaining control after a temporary ceasefire.
  • "The last thing you want to do right now to these guys is signal weakness and say, we’re willing to give you anything you ask for." (Sam Faddis, 06:45)
  • Emphasizes that expecting Hamas to disarm and allow the Palestinian Authority to take over is naive without immense pressure and likely force.
• Frank Gaffney: Notes that Hamas does not intend to relinquish power, describing any ceasefire ("hudna") as a tactical lull for jihadists to regroup.
  • "This train has, I think, already left the rails, and it's a question of, you know, do we keep doubling down?" (Frank Gaffney, 07:30)
• Field Experience: Faddis shares intelligence tradecraft:
  • "The day [your source] is not more afraid of you than he is of everyone else... is the day that you will find he has set you up and you are dead." (Sam Faddis, 09:15)
  • Discussed the doctrine that jihadist groups view peace deals as opportunities for regrouping, not real reconciliation.

2. Domestic Security Threat: New York City Mayoral Race

[13:56–19:05]

Issue:

• Zoran Mamdani, a candidate with links to radical Islamic ideology, could become NYC’s mayor.

Insights:

• Sam Faddis details Mamdani’s "Twelver" (Shia Mahdist) beliefs, suggesting these views harbor apocalyptic expectations and advocate societal takeover.
  • "He’s a Shia Twelver...these are the folks who believe that the Mahdi is coming...their task is to bring that on...If that doesn’t terrify you, I don’t know what will." (Sam Faddis, 15:47)
• The potential implications: a national security threat if NYC’s ports, airports, and critical infrastructure are overseen by someone with such affiliations.

3. Venezuela: Drug Warfare & Narco-State Analysis

[19:05–23:53]

Issue:

• Recent U.S. military actions against fast boats trafficking drugs from Venezuela, and the increasing alignment of Colombia’s government with Venezuela.

Insights:

• Venezuela as a narco-state, not just involved in drug trafficking but using it as a weapon against the U.S.
  • "There’s no question that Venezuela effectively declared war on us years ago...It's not just about making money. They explicitly view this as a way to harm us, to wage war..." (Sam Faddis, 19:29)
• Emphasizes the multi-pronged threat, with additional support from hostile powers: China, Iran, Cuba.
  • "Every bad guy on the planet...they’re all there. This is a real nest of vipers." (Sam Faddis, 22:24)
• Commends new policy focus on hitting drug supply chains at the source before drugs hit U.S. streets.

4. Christian Genocide and Political Instability in Nigeria

[27:02–39:02]

Issue:

• The underreported genocide of Christians in Nigeria, government complicity, and Western government/lobbyist attempts to downplay or obfuscate the violence.

Insights:

• Dee Dee Loggeson introduces Doug Burton (TruthNigeria.com) to report on a suppressed military coup and continuing genocidal violence.
• Doug Burton:
  • Details the complex civil conflict: jihadist bandits attacking Christian communities, suspected government complicity.
  • Outlines Tinubu’s (Nigerian president) controversial background and the government’s dual role:
    • "The government does appear to be playing two roles. It is complicit...people in the administration, in the cabinet level...are actually financiers and supporters of the terrorism." (Doug Burton, 33:16)
  • Reporters uncover the government’s failure to intervene in massacre events and its use of media suppression.
• Save the Persecuted Christians: Coordinating advocacy in the U.S. for Christians in Nigeria, combating narratives that minimize the scale or intent of the violence.
  • "At a rate of 5.2% Christians are dying more often than Muslims in Nigeria. 2.1 Christians are killed per Muslim..." (Dee Dee Loggeson, 37:16)

5. China: Consolidation of Power, Military Aggression, and Strategic Outlook

[42:10–60:45]

Context:

• The Fourth Party Plenum of the Chinese Communist Party brought widespread rumors of Xi Jinping’s weakened grip; discussion analyzes this alongside escalating military advancements.

Insights:

• Captain James Fennell:
  • Debunks wishful thinking about instability at the top of the CCP, noting the party’s continued aggressive military expansion and regional dominance.
    • "What I see is the actions of somebody that's in control...the trajectory of activity is on a steady upward expansion..." (Capt. Fennell, 44:50)
  • Details new hypersonic missile capabilities, aggressive maneuvers near Taiwan, Guam, and the South China Sea.
  • Discusses “threat deflation”—a deliberate or naïve downplaying of the China threat in Western policy and media.
    • "There’s a lot of exaggeration, a lot of twisting...Some is on purpose to make China look weak...and some is wishful thinking..." (Capt. Fennell, 47:45)

Rare Earths and Tipping Point:

• China’s move to restrict rare earth exports is seen as a potential strategic tipping point in global power.
• U.S. is trying to secure alternate sources (e.g., with Australia), but remains dangerously dependent in key military/industrial sectors.
  • "We're behind the power curve...It's going to take years for us to get off the rare earth element train from China." (Capt. Fennell, 57:17)

U.S. Strategic Response:

• Fennell argues the U.S. must treat China as an existential threat—akin to Soviet-era containment—and support dissident Chinese voices.
  • "If we don’t get through our head that for them it’s they win, we die...we will be in a position where they will control us...I think President Trump understands that." (Capt. Fennell, 58:40)
  • Hints at new initiatives to support Chinese people versus the CCP, referencing evolving U.S. information efforts.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps and Speaker Attribution)

• Sam Faddis (on Hamas and peace negotiations):

  • "The day [your source] is not more afraid of you than he is of everyone else...is the day that you will find he has set you up and you are dead." [09:15]

• Frank Gaffney (on U.S. policy in the Middle East):

  • "This train has, I think, already left the rails, and it's a question of...do we keep doubling down?" [07:30]

• Sam Faddis (on NYC mayoral threat):

  • "He’s a Shia Twelver...It is really their task to bring that [apocalypse] on." [15:47]

• Doug Burton (on Nigerian government complicity):

  • "The government does appear to be playing two roles. It is complicit..." [33:16]

• Dee Dee Loggeson (statistics on Nigerian Christian deaths):

  • "2.1 Christians are killed per Muslim in Nigeria..." [37:16]

• Captain James Fennell (on Xi's power):

  • "What I see is the actions of somebody that's in control...the trajectory of activity is on a steady upward expansion..." [44:50]

• Captain James Fennell (on threat deflation):

  • "There’s a lot of exaggeration, a lot of twisting...Some is on purpose to make China look weak...some is wishful thinking..." [47:45]

• Captain James Fennell (on rare earths and U.S. vulnerability):

  • "It's going to take two to three, maybe even five years for us to completely get off the rare earth element train from China." [57:17]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Intro & Gaza/Hamas analysis: [01:00–10:43]
• NYC Mayoral threat (Mamdani): [13:56–19:05]
• Venezuela as narco-state: [19:05–23:53]
• Nigeria: Christian persecution and political turmoil: [27:02–39:02]
• China: CCP consolidation, military, rare earths: [42:10–60:45]

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Episode Tone and Language

The conversation is urgent, skeptical of mainstream and governmental narratives, and deeply national-security focused. There’s a recurring theme of “waking up” to underappreciated threats and calling for robust, even uncompromising responses. The guests frequently cite firsthand or field experience (“in the field,” “from hard experience”) and encourage listeners to look beyond public-relations narratives—both foreign and domestic.

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Summary Takeaways

• Vigilance: Western nations, especially the U.S., must confront emerging and ongoing threats proactively—whether from jihadism, narco-states, or an assertive China.
• Accountability: Political and media establishments are criticized for not asking hard questions—about candidates' backgrounds, foreign government complicity, and U.S. policy direction.
• Strategic Action Needed: There's a consensus that the U.S. must move from reactive to preventive and strategic actions—in Middle East peace, counter-narcotics, support for persecuted populations, and in great power competition with China.
• Grassroots and Expert Coalition: The show highlights the role of independent journalists, advocacy coalitions, and intelligence experts in driving policy awareness and action.

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For further analysis and action, visit:

• Frank Gaffney’s feed at @frankgaffney on X (Twitter)
• Institute for the American Future: usfuture.org
• And Magazine: andmagazine.substack.com
• Truth Nigeria: truthnigeria.com
• Save the Persecuted Christians: [organization site]
• Present Danger China webinars: presentdangerchina.org

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End of summary.

Transcript

[iHeart Radio Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Frank Gaffney]

You know what your customers are doing right this second?

[Sam Faddis]

The exact same thing. You are listening to me, which, let's be honest, is kind of flattering. But my point Is, ads on iHeartRadio.

[Frank Gaffney]

Actually get heard in the car, at the gym, on the couch while people are walking their dogs.

[Sam Faddis]

Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? You're a good boy.

[Doug Burton]

That's right, dude.

[Dee Dee Loggeson]

You're a good.

[Sam Faddis]

So why not make the next ad about you?

[Frank Gaffney]

Get started today.

[Leon Neyfak]

Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844, iheart or iheartadvertising.com.

[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome to securing America with me, Frank Gaffney. The program that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country we love against all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the glory of God and His kingdom. Well, we are going to be talking about some very well, troubling developments that I think are not really in the interest of, well, the kingdom for sure, and arguably Western civilization more generally. We're going to talk about them with one of our favorite guests. Before we do, a little context to set up the first part of this conversation. President Trump told Time magazine that he will soon decide whether to press Israel to release Marwan Barghouti from prison. Doing so is being portrayed as a step towards an alternative to Hamas and consistent with our interests and efforts to promote peace in Gaza and regionally. In fact, unleashing Barghouti, a jihadist serving multiple life sentences for his involvement in the murder of five Israelis, would add immeasurably to the narrative that those who are like him, committed to the destruction of Israel have won a truth telling briefing by Our Victory Coalition and partners in Israel. Israel365 action featured American and Israeli experts yesterday who warned of the already great dangers for both our countries. Reinforcing that perception, Sharia supremacists, notably the leaders of so called allies Qatar and Turkey, will simply intensify their double game of using the president's 220 points to deal with to pursue rather than what is in fact a truly endless war against Western civilization. Well, those are my views on the subject. I hope you will check out my feed at X rankgaffney for more, as well as also our website at the Institute for the American future. That would be usfuture.org for more of what we are thinking and trying to do about these myriad challenges to our country and to you and your leadership Loved ones. We're going to turn though, before we get any further afield, to our friend Sam Faddis. Sam is of course, the former Central Intelligence Agency Undercover operative, some 20 years in the field, including towards the end of his distinguished career, some time in from the cold, as they say in the business at Langley headquarters of the CIA, where he was responsible for the challenge of weapons of mass destruction terrorism. Going to be talking to him about this in a very specific near term threat context. But before we do, Sam, I did want to invite you to comment on what I've just laid out here and more generally how it's going with this idea of, oh, I don't know, disarming Hamas, removing it from power and otherwise, you know, clearing the decks for conceivably a different kind of regime in Gaza and maybe peace in the region more generally. Your thoughts, sir?

[Sam Faddis]

Well, look, I think it's a terrible idea to release Marwan. That's, that's my take. I mean, and, and more broadly, I think we just, we need to focus on, on this. Look, the. There are a whole bunch of stages to this peace deal. The first part, which is tricky enough, is the Israelis in phases back out of Gaza and food flows in and aid flows in and a number of other, you know, there's a ceasefire and so forth. Okay, that's all tricky enough. And we've seen that hostages are released, remains are returned prisoners, a whole bunch of Palestinians are released from Israeli custody, etc. Okay, that's bad. That's not bad enough. That's tricky enough. And we've already seen that there are issues with that hitches, major issues. But honestly, that's the easy part because at the end of that, you have Hamas, as they already are, back in control of Gaza. The Israelis backed out a ceasefire. And if you're, if you don't really focus here and get lucky, maintain pressure, Hamas has taken this thing off the rails at that point. And what you're left with is Hamas is back in control of Gaza and we're back to where we were two years ago, waiting for the next terrorist attack. And there certainly anybody who's been paying attention at all for many years would think really good chance that a lot of folks in Hamas want that to be how this plays. So getting over the next hump, which is Hamas disarms, turns in its weapons, an international security force goes in, and then we end up with some kind of, some kind of government. And ultimately, I think the idea is the Palestinian Authority takes control. That's the real hump in the road here. When you ask in Hamas to lay down its guns, surrender power, and basically go quietly into the night, that will not happen without a lot of pressure and probably, you know, some vigorous action at various points. So I think the last thing you want to do right now to these guys is signal weak weakness and say, we're willing to give you anything you ask for. I don't think that's. That's the play, and I hope the President will make that call.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, I do, too. And. And Sam, I think it'd be one thing if, if, you know, we're just sort of talking in the abstract about probabilities. Hamas couldn't be more clear. And this was very evident in our webinar, the briefing by the Victory Coalition that I mentioned in the commentary, that they're not inclined at all to lay down their arms, to give up power, to, you know, have somebody, the Palestinian Authority, or suppose anybody else for that matter, actually telling them what to do and running things. So we're kind of on notice that this train has, I think, already left the rails, and it's a question of, you know, do we keep doubling down? And I'm very anxious that that seems to be kind of the default mode we're in. So, Sam, it brings me to the question that I just always prize your long experience with folks like Hamas in the field in a lot of unsavory places, whether it's Hamas specifically or just the sort of Sharia supremacist of whom they are a prominent part. When they look at all this and you sort of put your finger on the point, are they perceiving weakness? Are they perceiving that they're winning? Are they perceiving that if they continue to press on, that they may get even more rewards and bennies from doing so?

[Sam Faddis]

Look, I think what you can expect is that at every juncture, they are going to test you and look for weakness. There isn't going to be an end to that until the whole process is complete, if there is such a thing. So you are going to continuously find that they're going to push you and test you and lie and, and all of this. And at every juncture, when that happens, you're going to have to respond forcefully. As I've said many times in this program, used to tell junior officers in the field, you're talking to your Islam, your. Your Muslim source in the field, and he calls you brother, and you all love each other too much. That's great. The day he's not more afraid of you than he is of everyone else on the planet is the day that you will find he has set you up and you are dead. So you can't forget that there's no such thing as a handshake deal and it's all over. This will continue all throughout this process. Let's hope it will continue and the process doesn't completely disintegrate.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, this, I guess, is something that's not only informed by hard experience, but you've had, but also it's the doctrine. It's what Sharia commands these jihadists do. They are they are supposed to win. They're not supposed to ever give up. And if they, if they feel compelled, as you've talked with me about on this program in the past, if they feel compelled due to force and other pressures to make some kind of agreement, it is a total hudna. It is, you know, a lull in the fighting that will be used for the purposes of rearming, regrouping, and then getting back in the fight as soon as they can do so more successfully. Sam Fadis is in the house. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back with much more, including what all this means for us here at home.

[Captain James Fennell]

Foreign.

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[Leon Neyfak]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a masochist called Rolled Their Eyes or just asked why Benghazi?

[Sam Faddis]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Leon Neyfak]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Sam Faddis]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Leon Neyfak]

Bad faith, political warfare and frankly, bullshit.

[Captain James Fennell]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

[Sam Faddis]

You put two and two together.

[Leon Neyfak]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Frank Gaffney]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

[Leon Neyfak]

I'm Leon Neyfak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

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[Sam Faddis]

Yeah, that's right. Lock her up.

[Leon Neyfak]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Foreign.

[Frank Gaffney]

We'Re back. And so is Sam Faddis, I'm delighted to say. Charles Sam Faddis, a man of great distinction who has served his country both in the uniform of the United States army as well as without a uniform in the ranks of the Clandestine Service of the Central Intelligence Agency. He's also been an Assistant Attorney General out in Washington State. He's the author of numerous books of fiction and non fiction, including one of my personal favorites, Beyond Repair, the Decline and Fall of the Central Intelligence Agency. Sam is also the driving force behind a terrific online resource that would be called and Magazine. You can find it at andmagazine.substack.com I hope you'll subscribe. Sam, let me start this block by asking you to talk about again, if you would, a subject that I feel constrained to keep raising the alarm at every turn that we can. Namely, the distinct possibility that if the people of New York elect Mamdani Zoran Mamdani to become their next mayor, there could be a huge consequences national security consequences, perhaps terrible devastation visited upon the city of New York and perhaps other parts of this country as well. Walk us through why that concern is in your estimation, professional judgment and experience well founded, sir.

[Sam Faddis]

Well, look, when I look at the folks that are supporting Mamdani, I feel like most of them, certainly the white liberals that are supporting him, just sort of think he, I don't know, he's sort of, he's, he's cool, he's hip, he's a new guy, he doesn't look like stereotypical politician. Isn't this need to support Mamdani, this somehow means I'm progressive. So let's not actually talk about who the heck this guy is and who he associates with. I mean, he's a Shia Twelver. All right. You know, we've talked about that before, but basically these are the folks who believe that the Mahdi is coming, the 1500 year old imam, there will be Armageddon, Apocalypse. Right. You know, as Bill Murray would say, the worst parts of the Bible. I mean, I'm saying that tongue in cheek, but I just mean to say that's literally that concept they have. There will be Armageddon, fire, brimstone, and they emerge victorious. And that is imminent not one of these days, not a thousand years. And it is really their task to bring that on. It is to bring, which is why obviously the Iranians, who are Twelvers, why it's so dangerous, this concept of nuclear war. You think nobody would use a nuclear weapon. Well, if you think the only way that it is actually your job to do that, your duty to do that, to create this holocaust. Yeah. And you certainly would do that. And then this guy is a member of that sect more broadly. He associates with a whole wide range of really radical Islamic preachers. And he himself has made all kinds of statements which are really radical Islamic, as in, it's our job to take over this society, transform this society, do all of this kind of stuff. So now you're going to turn. This guy will be the head of New York City, in charge of New York City and therefore the largest city in the country. The port, the airports, everything else. That guy will be responsible for the security of all of that. Now, if that doesn't terrify you, I don't know what will. So it is a massive national security issue. And again, it kind of boggles my mind that largely the press, even on all sides, doesn't talk about it at all.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, this needs to be remedied immediately and we hope to be helping bring that about. Your comments and insights, Sam, are tremendously appreciated. Let me turn to another battlefront. If I Can call it that. I guess it seems increasingly apt. Venezuela. We have now, I believe at last count, nine go fast boats that have been blown up by the United States military for, we're told, trafficking drugs. The president says every single one of those boats will result in 25,000Americans dying if they're not intercepted. And of course, then there's the problem that if they all stop moving the drugs that way, is it going to be the case they'll come in by land or by air or other means? Give us your, you know, sit rep on this, if you would, Sam, your situation report.

[Sam Faddis]

Well, I mean, people need to understand that there's no question that Venezuela effectively declared war on us years ago. It's not just that they, they are involved in this. It's industrial scale pumping drugs into our country. But we know that they have, they are completely aware of the impact of the drugs on the United States and that that is, it's not just about making money. We, we know as fact that they explicitly view this as a way to harm us, to wage war against us. So, and I think the brilliance of the president's approach, and you see this in a lot of ways, he sort of walks into a room and everybody's mired in the details of how to execute something and he says, in effect, why are we doing it that way? Why are we waiting till the drugs are on the streets of the United States and then spending all our time and money trying to catch them in small quantities? If we know where they're coming from and we know sort of where the major arteries are, why don't we take out those arteries and cut this thing off at the source, which is what he's doing really effectively. There is, of course, another dimension to this, which is Colombia, because Colombia, that was once a very staunch ally of ours in this fight, is now under the control of a leftist former guerrilla president and who, I mean, cocaine production has exploded since he got into office, and he's now actively calling for the Colombians to cooperate, the military to cooperate with Venezuela. Now, the Colombian military said pretty loudly immediately, no way in hell we're doing that. We're not working with those guys. But that will show you how bad it is that you've got the president of Colombia, once a reliable ally, now saying he's going to make common cause with Maduro and of course telling us ridiculous things like everybody we blow up in one of these boats is just an old fisherman trying to feed his family who happens to own that, happens to own this 35 foot boat with, you know, incredible horsepower and happens to be doing 60 knots across the Caribbean Sea. I don't know what kind of fishing is involved with that, but, you know, that kind of nonsense being trotted out.

[Frank Gaffney]

So, Sam, it's been said that what we're dealing with really in Venezuela is not just a very hostile government that, you know, as you say, is effectively waging war against us using drugs, among other means. You're also interested in their contribution to election fraud, I think. Sure, as well. But this is apparently more or less a drug cartel that runs the country. Maduro is, of course, the. The guy at the top of that food chain. But would you agree with that characterization that this is just really a narco state, full stop?

[Sam Faddis]

Yeah, well, that's exactly the expression I was going to use. Yes, it's a narco state. That's exactly what it is. And then, you know, we can add on all the other horrifying. I mean, we're approaching Halloween, so let's throw in all the other ghouls here, the Chinese, the Iranians. The fact that actually Maduro is kept in power largely by Cuban intelligence and Cuban special forces. I mean, every bad guy on the planet, the, you know, the Iranian Quds Force, they're all there. I mean, this is a real nest of vipers. And yes, it is. Of course, the Biden administration did nothing about it.

[Frank Gaffney]

Purpose, which is waging war against us, is it not?

[Sam Faddis]

Absolutely. That's exactly the way they look at this. This is not just about some guys getting rich, although obviously they are. This is about an attack on the United States and it's been ongoing for a long time and we just haven't done anything about it.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, well, this president is trying to do something about it. I commend him for it. And it is, as you say, Sam, long overdue. I hope it will be pursued successfully because this is a war we can't afford to lose with any of those characters. Needless to say, Sam, we have to leave it at that. I appreciate, as always, our visits. We're on the road, as is obvious, I think, to all of our listeners. But you're with us wherever we go and we're deeply grateful for that fact. Keep up your great work, my friend, at andmagazine.subset.com Come back to us next week. We'll be right back with the rest of you right after this.

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[iHeart Radio Announcer]

Run a business and not thinking about radio? Think again. Because more people are listening to the radio and iHeart today than they were 20 years ago. And only iHeart broadcast radio connects with more American than TV, digital, social, any other media. Even twice as many teens than TikTok. And that reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's here now more than ever, and iheart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business? Think iHeart streaming, podcasting and radio. Where the reach is real. Let us show [e-mail] that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844-844-Iheart one more time. Just call 844-844-iheart and get radio working for you.

[Leon Neyfak]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked why Benghazi?

[Captain James Fennell]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Leon Neyfak]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Sam Faddis]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Leon Neyfak]

Bad faith, political warfare and frankly, bullshit.

[Captain James Fennell]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

[Sam Faddis]

You put two and two together.

[Leon Neyfak]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Frank Gaffney]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

[Leon Neyfak]

I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Sam Faddis]

Yeah, that's right, lock her up.

[Leon Neyfak]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back. It's a delight, as always to be able to tee up one of my favorite segments of this program each week. And that is the one I get to co host with my friend and colleague Dee Dee Loggeson, the president of Save the Persecuted Christians, an incredibly important organization. I'm proud to be on its board and to support in any way we can the work of trying to do just that. And we're going to talk about a place in the world where it's a full time job, needless to say. Dede, welcome back. It's good to have you with us. We've got a special guest to talk about this particular particularly vexing problem in Nigeria.

[Dee Dee Loggeson]

Thank you, Frank. Always good to be here with you. Today we're going to talk again about Nigeria, the genocide of Christians happening in Nigeria that Senator Ted Cruz is looking to counter with his bill calling for the country of particular concern designation by the State Department, which is supposed to come very soon. Bill Maher also has been speaking about this. You've seen it all over the news. And now you have legions of Nigerian paid for lobbyists coming to Washington, D.C. and to London to counter these claims of a Christian genocide. You've had the Vatican Secretary of State Pietro Parolin and Massad Boulos, who is the senior advisor to President Trump in Africa, and the US Ambassador to Nigeria, Richard Mills, all claiming that this is not a genocide, that more Muslims are killed and that this is just sectarian violence. So we have for you today Doug Burton, who is the [e-mail] It's a US based media publication with on the ground reporters in Nigeria. Very brave, brave reporters bringing us the truth. Doug, give us your update on Nigeria. We hear that there was an alleged coup that was put down. What's going on in Nigeria?

[Doug Burton]

Thanks, Deedee. Thanks, Frank. Again, it's an honor to be with you. Nigeria is a fast moving situation. It's the biggest country in Africa in terms of population and it has the biggest civil war, a very complex civil conflict that involves multiple insurgencies and tens of thousands of jihadist bandits who are attacking Christian villages all across the north and middle belt of the country. Now in this situation, which has been going on for more than a decade, the nation has faced many crises and one is a very peculiar one. It was reported on October 4 that there had been 16 military officers, some at the rank of brigadier general. Most of them were lieutenant colonels or below. And these officers are Muslims from the north who were believed to have been plotting A coup to be carried out on October 1st or possibly on October 25th. A coup over throw president of Nigeria Bola Ahmed Tinibu. These officers, these 16 officers are being held incommunicado in a detention center in Abuja. The government has suppressed the story about a coup and claims that it was not a coup, that in fact these officers are being punished or reprimanded for disorderly contact or lodging grievances about failure, their failures to be promoted in the promotion system. So there is a lot of controversy, a lot of speculation behind the scenes as to whether the coup was actually a real cool coup or was it a ploy or was it a psychological operation? Since these officers have not been. They have been identified for us, but the government has apparently repressed reporting about it. The major newspapers are not investigating it. They don't investigate topics that the government doesn't want to be exposed. So we're not exactly sure where we are on the coup.

[Frank Gaffney]

Doug, could you speak to the issue of the role that the government of Nigeria, the present, presumably continuing government of Nigeria is, Is playing in this persecution of Christians?

[Doug Burton]

It's a very good question, Frank. The president Bol Ahmed Tinubu is not a man from the north, as was his predecessor, Muhammadu Buhari. Ahmed Tinubu lived for many years in Chicago. He is believed to have been part of a criminal organization at that time that was selling narcotics. But amazingly, he was able to go back to Nigeria where he. Or to London, where in the mid-1990s, he was a leader of the democracy movement and he was considered a reformer. He became very wealthy as the governor of Lagos state for several years. And he has been a kingmaker, the person who is responsible for advancing Muhammadu Buhari to the top of the all Progressives Congress party. And now he is in charge. He is a Muslim. He is married to a Pentecostal lady who's a minister in the redeemed Christian church of God. It's a very unusual combination in leadership. His vice president is also Muslim and comes from the northeastern part of the country, Borno, and is believed to have been an advisor to the Boko Haram insurgency when he was a governor. So he's a very controversial character. And his role is in the future is shrouded with speculation.

[Dee Dee Loggeson]

Do you think the government is complicit in what's happening to the Christians? How is the government?

[Doug Burton]

We are confident that the government has been complicit for many years. So what Nigeria is doing, what the government does, we believe, is a dual Role. It administers the army and it appears to be suppressing terrorism and the insurgencies. It has made dozens or hundreds of bombing attacks on bandit gangs in the northwestern states. But at the same time it has completely neglected law enforcement in the Christian majority states of Plateau, Taraba and Benue state where there is a terrible series of ethnic cleansings, murders. We covered the horrific massacre in Yellowatta on June 13th and 14th when 258 men, women and children completely unarmed and defenseless were murdered. Some burned to death in their homes in downtown Yalawatta. The government, the army did not come to rescue them although they had plenty of time. It was a four hour attack. This government does appear to be playing two roles. It is complicit. We believe the the government itself, people in the administration, in the cabinet level and in the Nigerian Senate are actually financiers and are supporters of the terrorism. This is all covered up. Nigerian media does not do investigative journalism. Truth Nigeria and some other papers. Sahara reporters have the burden of exposing the involvement of this government in criminality.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, I cannot thank you enough and certainly endorse what Didi has said about the vital role that you play with your team in Truth Nigeria and the courage of those folks on the ground just putting their lives at risk every single day to make sure that the truth about what's happening in Nigeria is out. And Didi, I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about how your organization, Save the Persecuted Christians has been trying to hold accountable this government and that of Buhari before it and expose to hopefully the government of the United States that this is not just sectarian violence. This is not farmers versus herdsmen, this is jihad. And to be told that there's possibly going to be a designation as a country of particular concern. Seems like the bare minimum that should be done here. Is that in fact in prospect at the bare minimum. And what more needs to be done and what can we do to help?

[Dee Dee Loggeson]

Well, you've got two counts going on here, Frank. You've got a charge of genocide going on, which is very, very hard to prove. Is there intent for what is happening to the Christians in Nigeria? And one could say you can point to the government and its lack of response, lack of arrest, lack of prosecution, and the reality that there are hostage camps near military installations that have not been cleared, the hostages not rescued, the villages not being taken back. They're occupied by the terrorists, renamed, over 300 of them since 2009. And and so Save the Persecuted Christians is pulling together a large coalition of leaders who are concerned about what's happening in Nigeria. We just this week had a big phone call. Dr. Albeda King is very concerned about what's happening and has engaged with us and would very much like to go to Nigeria. We are bringing the voices of the victims to the United States where they can speak to members of Congress and the administration and share their stories. And Doug Burton and his organization with Truth Nigeria grew up out of our coalition strategizing for Save the Persecuted Christians and it is sponsored by equipping the persecuted, another coalition member at Save the Persecuted Christians. So we really believe that we have to pull all these voices together to unite to stand against these legions of lobbyists for Nigeria that push that farmer herder narrative that these are clashes, but they're frank. At a rate of 5.2% Christians are dying more often than Muslims in Nigeria. 2.1 Christians are killed per Muslim in Nigeria. And so what these government officials and others are saying is just meant to obfuscate and they're hand in hand working with the lobbyists from Nigeria. So we're trying to break that with our coalition.

[Frank Gaffney]

I cannot thank you enough for the work you're doing as well as the support that you're giving to Judd Saul and his help to the people on the ground, as well as of course Doug Burton's. This is a team effort and it's vitally important and I believe my core that President Trump could make all the difference if he actually holds those in government in Nigeria accountable for the horrors that are being inflicted on the Christians there. Thank you both for coming aboard for an update. I hope you'll come back to us again very soon. Hope the rest of you will stick around. We'll be right back with more right after this.

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[iHeart Radio Announcer]

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[Leon Neyfak]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked why Benghazi?

[Captain James Fennell]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Leon Neyfak]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Sam Faddis]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Leon Neyfak]

Bad faith, political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

[Captain James Fennell]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

[Sam Faddis]

You put two and two together.

[Leon Neyfak]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Frank Gaffney]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

[Leon Neyfak]

I'm Leon Neyfak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sam Faddis]

Lock her up.

[Leon Neyfak]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back. And when I get to say welcome back to our next guest, I consider it a banner day here at Securing America. That would be Captain James Fennell, United States Navy, retired. He left a long and distinguished career as one of the most thoughtful, I think, and most, well, perspicacious is the fancy word for it, but just plain old fashioned. Correct. Analyst of the Chinese Communist Party and its intentions, particularly in the military sphere, but more generally as well in his role as the chief of intelligence and information operations for the US Pacific Fleet. He made his mark in putting out, I think, that Clarion called a decade or more ago. We are also very pleased that he is the co author with Dr. Bradley Thayer of an incredibly important book about embracing Communist China, America's greatest strategic failure. Delighted to have him as one of our faithful regulars here as well as a Committee on the Present Danger China member. And in that role in particular as a contributor to its wonderful webinar series. I commend to all of you those [e-mail] Captain, welcome back aboard. It's good to have you with us, Frank.

[Captain James Fennell]

It's great to be with you. Thanks.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, we are doing though the conversation today against the backdrop of the conclusion of the so called Fourth Plenty Plenum, rather the fourth Party plenum of the Chinese Communist Party in Beijing. You were making book on this if I'm not mistaken, at least in a non pecuniary sense as to whether it would be demonstrated there that Xi Jinping, the emperor for life of the Chinese Communist Party has in fact lost power, may even have lost his job. You were skeptical about that being the case. I think you've been vindicated. Would you say so?

[Captain James Fennell]

Well, Frank, I think what you bring up is an interesting point, which is to say in the community of people that watch China, there's been a growing influence of a few people that I think are well intentioned. Some of them, some of them, I can't speak to their intentions but that they tended to see the activities in Beijing through a kind of a wishful lens. And so there was a lot of reporting about the purges that were announced the week before the plenum started. The removal of nine PLA officers, former and current, the removal of a vice chairman of the Central Military Commission, which is a big deal, there's no question about it. Those are big deals. And then the ongoing disruptions with the PLA over the last year and a half or two years with the rocket force reports and all this kind of rumors and rumors upon rumors, you know, that, you know, people were being purged out and people that were loyal to Xi were being purged out by some general and that, you know, Xi's stature in the party was in question. And there was even people saying that he was going to be, you know, frog marched out of the plenum like Hu Jintao was out of that party congress, National People's Congress a year ago. So I've been very skeptical of that. I know that, you know, in our Cold War we followed the Soviet Union, there was a lot of smart people that looked at criminologists that Looked at the Soviet leadership and studied their every movement. But I'm kind of, my background is military, so I like to look at actions and what I see is the actions of somebody that's in control. And the trajectory of activity is on a steady upward expansion, expansion in the capabilities. We just saw at this 3 September military parade in Beijing, the Chinese unveil a suite of hypersonic missiles for ships for their anti ship missile program that are hypersonic. So China's moving beyond just hypersonics in the strategic nuclear sense. They're also trying to develop, and not trying, they're developing hypersonics for conventional warfare. So. And then we see their activities with their carriers, two carriers at sea this summer, operating east of the second island chain, at least one of them, two of them, both beyond the first island chain for the first time ever, operating near and around Guam and Iwo Jima. We see the activities around Taiwan on a daily basis. We see the increased bullying and use of military, the PLA Navy to actually get involved with Coast Guard activities, to try to shut down the Philippines, our ally, to be able to just occupy what's legitimately theirs in the South China Sea. So what I see from the Chinese military is continued growth. So when I hear people say, well, you know, they purged all these generals and it's going to mean that G's out of power or the PLA is out of, you know, in shambles, I just don't see it reflected in the actual military activity. I see the opposite. And I think you can say the same thing in terms of diplomacy and other areas. Maybe their economy is obviously a bit weaker, but we just saw the Chinese push back pretty hard against the United States when it comes to rare earth elements. So I think what we saw in this plenum and what's been actually reported now by the Chinese is that Xi is, you know, his thought. Xi's thought for the new era is firmly in plants in place. Again, he is the core leader. Everybody's supposed to obey and bow down to the core leader. And while there's been some changes at the top, these are not unprecedented. I watched one of the headlines today say, oh, the largest and most sweeping purges in decades. You're actually like, well, actually they did the same amount of purges and changes in the, in the plenum membership in 2017. So that's not really decades ago, that's just eight years ago. And so there's a lot of exaggeration, there's a lot of twisting and there's a lot of bias in the reporting. Some of it is on purpose to make China look weak and make Xi look weak so then we don't have to do anything to stand up to them. And others of it are just, I think people are wishful thinking and hoping that this problem will go away and it's not going to go away.

[Frank Gaffney]

Jim, you and and Bradley Thayer, I think, helpfully contributed to our understanding of this dynamic by introducing this term threat deflation. And whether it's the wishful thinking or whether it's frankly a deliberate effort to mislead the rest of us about the magnitude of the danger that we're facing and the fact that it is continuing to grow to take on, as you say, additional capabilities and that it is being accompanied by actions that are demonstrably aggressive is all the sort of thing that needs to go into a calculation of what they're really up to and capable of. We're going to get into much more of that on the other side of this very short break. I hope you'll stay tuned for more with the co author of Embracing Communist China, Captain James Funnell, United States Navy Retired.

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[iHeart Radio Announcer]

Run a business and not thinking about radio? Think again, because more people are listening to the radio and iHeart today than they were 20 years ago. And only iHeart broadcast radio connects with more Americans than TV, digital, social, any other media, even twice as many teens than TikTok. And that reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for your business. Radio's Here now more than ever. And iheart's leading the way. Think radio can help your business. Think iheart streaming, podcasting and radio where the reach is real. Let us show [e-mail] that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844-844. Iheart one more time. Just call 844-844-Iheart and get radio working for you.

[Leon Neyfak]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes or just asked, why.

[Sam Faddis]

Benghazi?

[Captain James Fennell]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Leon Neyfak]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Sam Faddis]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Leon Neyfak]

Bad faith, political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

[Captain James Fennell]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up.

[Sam Faddis]

You put two and two together.

[Leon Neyfak]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Frank Gaffney]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything that's been going on for the last 20 years.

[Leon Neyfak]

I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Washable Sofas Advertiser]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, that's right.

[Sam Faddis]

Lock her up.

[Leon Neyfak]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Foreign.

[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back. And a very special welcome once again to Captain James Fennell, one of our country's preeminent experts on the Chinese military, but also the people who control it that would, it appears, continue to be Xi Jinping, the emperor. The Chinese Communist emperor, to be sure, that has, I think, very much made clear. He has us in his crosshairs. And, Jim, you circulated through a Google group that I'm very pleased to be part of. Earlier in the day, an interesting video by an Australian observer who opined that the tipping point, which has been foreseen for quite some time, among others, by you of the relative. Well, the Chinese have a term for it. The comprehensive national power of the United States versus Communist China has hit a tipping point and is now in favor of Communist China. He pointed to the recent thrash over China's announcement that it was going to stop exporting not just to us, but really to the world. Rare earth minerals, processed minerals vital to not only commercial competitiveness, but also military power as well. What did you make of this assessment, sir? Do you think that what's been foreseen for some time has now actually eventuated?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yeah, Frank. This was an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald and the Age, by interviewer named Selinger MORRIS Again with Mr. Peter Harcher. And he makes the case, as you described, that we what happened with this rare earth element issue where China said, we're not going to allow the export of rare earth elements to any country, not just America, but any country, unless it's for the specific and explicit use of only commercial issues. And we will be the sole arbiter of that. And President Trump obviously said we can't stand for that. Unfortunately, we're in the position where our military requires it. Our F22s and our F35s and our carriers and our nuclear submarines all rely upon rare earth elements that we predominantly get from the People's Republic of China. And so President Trump said, well, if you're going to do that, I'm going to slap on 100% tariff. And so. And it didn't work. China didn't back down. And so Mr. Harcher's assessment is that this was a tipping point moment. He didn't say that comprehensive national power is a great power has shifted completely from the United States to China, but his assertion was that this was a clear signpost of the shift that's in place. I don't disagree with the thesis that we should be concerned about the tipping point, and I'm very concerned that we've been put in this position. The book that we talked about in the previous segment is all about why we've. It was called Embracing Communist China, America's greatest strategic failure. So it's been a strategic failure that we've cozied up to them and put ourselves in this position of vulnerability. But do I think that we're done for right now? Not yet. Because of what Xi's done. You know, Biden talked, as Mr. Harcher said, Biden talked about these things during his administration, but he did nothing. Now we're seeing President Trump actually do something. And the agreement that was signed with Australia this week now makes it that we will start purchasing rare earth elements and getting them. The processing is a problem, but we will now have a supply from Australia as opposed to exclusively from China. And so I think we're behind the power curve. It's going to take at least, you know, some people say 18 months, but it's going to take two to three, maybe even five years for us to completely get off the rare earth element train from China. And we have the same problems in our pharmaceuticals and other areas. So we have a lot of work to do. And that's why we keep calling this is a national emergency. And that The United States needs to treat the People's Republic of China like we treated the Soviet Union during the Cold War. And if we don't get through our head that for them it's they win, we die. If we don't understand that, we will be in a position where they will control us and be able to dominate us. And I think President Trump understands that. And he's trying to, you know, solidify or make the moves that are required. Now, some people are criticizing him for being focused on the Western Hemisphere first, but he has to control the border, he has to stop the flow of drugs, he has to stop the flow of things that are coming in killing Americans, he has to get our deportees out, people that are illegally here, and he has to get our manufacturing back. And so he's got multitude of problems, safety in our cities. But he's no question in my mind that he understands the threat from China. And while he may say nice things about Xi, that's part of his understanding of how to bias time. And so we can be critical of his statements. But the fact of the matter is that he signed up and said we're going to get rare earth elements. He reinforced the alliance with Australia, with the Aukus, you know, Australia, uk, US Military technology transfers with submarines and other things. He's on track with those things and we need to. And the Secretary of War is now tightening the belt in our Department of War so that our sailors and Marines and soldiers and airmen are not going to be out of standards, but they're going to be in war fighting standards. They're going to be focused on war fighting. We're trying to rebuild the shipbuilding industry. We got so much to do. That's why it's a national issue. And I just wish he would talk about that a bit more.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, Jim, we've just got a minute left. This is a very big question. So we'll come back to you next week on it. But comprehensive national power as an estimate of the relative strength of the two nations does seem to be swinging in the favor of the Chinese. Should the United States policy at this point, given that reality, be anything other than trying to bring down the Chinese Communist Party? Can we enlist the help of the Chinese people who have at least as much interest in that outcome as we do?

[Captain James Fennell]

Yes. And I think in this specific issue, the president's taken hits because they closed down usaid, they cut down Radio Free America and these other elements. And people are bemoaning this and saying, oh, this just means he's not serious. But I believe Secretary Rubio and others are working to create new institutions will do just what you said, which is to get in and help the people of China realize that they can throw off the yoke of tyranny from the Chinese Communist Party.

[Frank Gaffney]

I pray that you're right and that they'll get about it right quick. Jim Finnell, thank you for joining us today and every week. Keep up your great work, my friend, and come back to us soon. Hope the rest of you do the same next time. That until then, you'll go forth and multiply.

[Sam Faddis]

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[Frank Gaffney]

But my point Is, ads on iHeartRadio actually get heard in the car, at the gym, on the couch, while people are walking their dogs.

[Sam Faddis]

Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy? You're a good boy.

[Doug Burton]

That's right, dude.

[Dee Dee Loggeson]

You're a good.

[Sam Faddis]

So why not make the next ad about you?

[Frank Gaffney]

Get started today.

[Leon Neyfak]

Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844, iheart or iheartadvertising.com this is an iheart podcast.