SECURING AMERICA WITH FRANK GAFFNEY - SEPTEMBER 20TH, 2025

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Securing America with Frank Gaffney – September 20, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of "Securing America with Frank Gaffney" focuses on defending American and Western civilization against threats posed by jihadist movements and their intersection with far-left and globalist ideologies. The conversation draws heavily on recent events—particularly regarding Israel, accusations of genocide by the United Nations, and the ongoing ideological and existential wars facing the Judeo-Christian West. The episode features two key interviews: first with Josh Hammer (Senior Editor-at-Large at Newsweek), and then with Robert Spencer (Director of Jihad Watch and prolific author).

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Segment 1: The UN, Israel, and the “Genocide” Accusation

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [02:36]–[12:24])

Key Discussion Points

• UN Investigation & Accusation:
  Gaffney introduces the episode by calling attention to a "breaking news" story in which a UN commission has accused Israeli leaders including Prime Minister Netanyahu of committing genocide in Gaza.

• Definition and Misuse of Genocide:
  Hammer, drawing on his legal background, explains that genocide requires both intent and action—specifically, the deliberate intention to eradicate a group.

  • "Genocide... does have not just an empirical discernible reality... It also has the element of intent." – Joshua Hammer [05:15]
  • Hammer argues that Israel does not meet this standard, citing Israel’s military restraint, humanitarian efforts (like dropping leaflets to warn civilians), and the presence of Arab citizens at all levels of Israeli society.

• Israel's Actual Intentions in Gaza:
  Hammer maintains that Israel’s limited goal is the destruction of Hamas as a military and political actor, not the population of Gaza:

  • “Israel has a very simp[le] task at hand, which is to eliminate Hamas... That is all they are focused on right now...” – Josh Hammer [08:45]

• Humanitarian Ratios:
  Hammer references West Point professor John Spencer’s research showing Israel has maintained the most humane civilian-combatant death ratio in recent urban warfare history:

  • “A country committing genocide would not... achieve the most humane civilian to combatant death ratio of about 1 to 1.5 in literally the entire history of a quarter urban warfare.” – Josh Hammer [07:55]

• Arab Citizens in Israel:
  Hammer highlights that 20–25% of Israel’s citizens are Arab, many of whom achieve high status and positions.

Notable Quote

“If they wanted to drop a nuclear bomb to Liquidate Gaza on October 8, 2023, they easily could have done that. A country that is committing genocide would not be having almost a thousand of its young men sacrifice in the godforsaken cesspool and hellhole that is Gaza.” – Josh Hammer [07:11]

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Segment 2: Hamas’s Warfare Tactics—and True Responsibility

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [09:00]–[12:24])

Key Discussion Points

• Responsibility for Gaza Casualties:
  Hammer attributes all deaths in Gaza post-October 7th to Hamas, stating their attack broke an existing ceasefire and all further conflict stems from that initial aggression.
  • “Every single death is ultimately attributed to the fact that they are going into Gaza in the first place because October 7th happened.” – Josh Hammer [10:13]
• Human Shields and Propaganda:
  Discussion of how Hamas embeds itself in civilian infrastructure, using human shields as a deliberate strategy to manipulate international opinion by maximizing civilian casualties.
  • “For Hamas, dead civilians are not something to be bemoaned. They are actually something to be waved to the international reader to try to bamboozle and dupe people into hating Jews more than they already do.” – Josh Hammer [10:45]

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Segment 3: Remembering Charlie Kirk & Defending Allies

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [15:16]–[21:24])

Key Discussion Points

• Charlie Kirk’s Legacy:
  Both Gaffney and Hammer mourn Kirk’s recent death and recount his commitment to defending the Judeo-Christian West, noting attempts by detractors to rewrite his legacy.

  • “He was a warrior for the heart and soul of the United States... He was a champion of the Jewish Christian Alliance.” – Josh Hammer [16:41]

• Attacks on Allies:
  Hammer defends Rabbi Pesach Wolicki, who faced slander for participating in Israel-related discussions and supporting Kirk.

  • “Rabbi Wulicki has always handled this sort of thing with aplomb... Don’t try to impeach him based on arbitrary characteristics.” – Josh Hammer [20:02]

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Segment 4: China, Civilizational Threats & Potential for Civil Strife

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [21:24]–[24:47])

Key Discussion Points

• China as Chief Adversary:
  Hammer underscores that the Chinese Communist Party presents the greatest strategic threat to the U.S., surpassing the Soviet Union in scale and methods.

  • “The Chinese Communist party is America’s 21st century threat... and considerably worse, actually, in many ways.” – Josh Hammer [23:20]

• Fomenting Division in the U.S.:
  Discussion of how foreign actors, especially communist China, may attempt to instigate internal conflict (Civil War 2.0) through subversion and playing on U.S. divisions.

  • “Trying to meddle in our domestic politics... is itself an old communist tactic.” – Josh Hammer [23:50]

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Segment 5: Jihad, the West & the Futility of Appeasement

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [29:43]–[39:46])

Key Discussion Points

• Jihadi Ambitions & Western Delusions:
  Spencer explains, based on Islamic texts, that true jihad never ends until global Islamic supremacy is achieved. Peace talks and ceasefires are perceived as Western weakness and only embolden jihadists.

  • “The Quran is very clear that you don’t lay down your arms when you have the upper hand... what that means is that these struggles are never going to end.” – Robert Spencer [30:21]

• The Doctrine of Hudna (Truce):
  A truce in Islamic law, according to Spencer, is merely a temporary reprieve, not a genuine peace, allowing Muslims to rebuild strength before fighting resumes.

  • “A hudna is a truce... only an opportunity for the Muslim forces to gain some breathing room... not the end of hostilities.” – Robert Spencer [34:13]

• Muhammad’s Example & Abrogation:
  Islamic law holds Muhammad as the ultimate model, and later, more aggressive Quranic verses override earlier, tolerant ones (the doctrine of abrogation).

  • “If Muhammad did something, then Muslims should do it. It’s just that simple.” – Robert Spencer [36:21]
  • “The bellicose passages are considered to cancel or supersede the tolerant ones.” – Robert Spencer [44:50]

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Segment 6: The Practice and Expansion of Sharia in America

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [42:39]–[49:52])

Key Discussion Points

• Transition from Tolerant to Aggressive Sharia:
  Spencer asserts that Muslim communities may espouse tolerance when weak but assert aggressive sharia norms as they gain power, helped by political and demographic shifts.

  • “If you were in the position of Muhammad in Mecca, a small weak group, then you preach tolerance. But then when you later gain power, you... begin to be much more aggressive...” – Robert Spencer [45:21]

• Challenges of Enforcement:
  Although some U.S. politicians (e.g., Senator Ted Cruz, Governor Greg Abbott) claim to oppose sharia enforcement, Spencer doubts actual efforts to check the expansion of sharia-based norms.

  • “It’s one thing to make a declaration, it’s another thing to work on enforcement.” – Robert Spencer [49:12]

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Segment 7: The Red-Green Axis – The Islamist-Marxist Alliance

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [53:23]–[59:39])

Key Discussion Points

• Marxist-Islamist Coalition:
  Spencer analyzes the growing alliance between Islamists (“green”) and far-left Marxists (“red”), exemplified by figures like Zoran Mamdani—a Shiite Muslim and Marxist running for New York City mayor—whom Spencer regards as a poster child for this axis.

  • “At the same time, he’s a Twelver Shiite... the governing ideology, the official religion of the Islamic Republic of Iran, where they frequently chant Death to America.” – Robert Spencer [56:31]

• Twelver Shiism and Apocalypticism:
  Spencer describes the apocalyptic beliefs of Twelver Shia, emphasizing their readiness for violence and martyrdom to precipitate the return of the “12th Imam.”

  • “It is an apocalyptic doomsday theology, Frank... looks to violence as the way for the culmination of all things...” – Robert Spencer [58:05]

• Dangers to Western Security:
  The risk, according to Spencer and cited intelligence sources, is that such individuals could leave major American cities (like NYC) vulnerable to terrorism and instability.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If there is genocide taking place in Hamas-stands, if you will, it is at the hands of Hamas. It is the direct result of, first of all, their refusal to surrender..."
  – Frank Gaffney [09:00]

• "He [Charlie Kirk] was a warrior for the heart and soul of the United States of America..."
  – Josh Hammer [16:41]

• "Survival, the fact that we survived, is a victory. And that's because the jihad never ends."
  – Robert Spencer [32:59]

• "The only end to the Jihad is when the entire world is Islamized."
  – Robert Spencer [33:58]

• "Abrogation is the result of the fact that the Quran as well as the traditions of Muhammad are full of contradictions."
  – Robert Spencer [44:16]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:36] – Opening: UN accusations and introduction of Josh Hammer
• [05:12] – Genocide’s legal definition and Israel’s actions in Gaza
• [09:00] – Hamas, human shields, and mistreatment of Gazans
• [15:16] – The legacy and recent death of Charlie Kirk
• [21:24] – The China threat and risk of civil discord in the US
• [29:43] – Start of Robert Spencer interview: why ceasefires embolden jihad
• [34:12] – The concept of Hudna in Islamic law
• [36:19] – Muhammad as model for Muslim behavior
• [44:16] – The principle of abrogation in the Quran
• [46:25] – The shift from tolerant to aggressive Sharia as political power increases
• [53:23] – Rise of the Red-Green Axis: Zoran Mamdani as archetype
• [58:01] – Twelver Shi'ism, apocalyptic violence, and security risks for the West

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Tone and Closing Note

The tone of the episode is urgent, cautionary, and at times combative—blending legal, historical, and polemical analysis. Gaffney and his guests consistently frame their discussion as a battle for the "civilized" world’s future, demanding vigilance, clarity, and strong response from Western societies.

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For listeners who missed the episode:
This installment offers an in-depth, two-part briefing on the existential challenges facing America and Israel from jihadism, leftist coalitions, and global destabilization, bolstered by legal, theological, and political insights from two leading conservative experts.

Transcript

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[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome to Securing America with me, Frank Afney. The program that's a kind of owner's manual for protecting the country we love against all enemies, foreign and domestic, to the glory of God and His kingdom. We are very privileged to be able to talk about a breaking news story with a man who is probably, well, as insightful, certainly as clear and as courageous as anybody in our country in discussing it. And that is the threat we are facing both here in the United States and in the Middle east. From Jihadist enemies who seek the destruction first because it's at hand of Israel and secondarily as soon as they can here in this country as well. His name is Josh Hammer, he's a senior editor at large for Newsweek and the author of an important new book about Israel that I am going to ask him to remind me of the title again. We're anxious to take stock of specifically a new front that has just been opened up unsurprisingly by virulent anti Israel elements in the United nations to try to further discredit Israel, further incentivize people to want to punish the Jewish state by characterizing what she is doing in her self defense in Gaza as genocide. Josh is an attorney, among other things, he knows a lot about international and other law and we're anxious to pick his brains about where the truth lies on all this and the implications of such a finding by a UN so called independent countries. Josh, welcome back to Securing America. It's great to have you my friend.

[Josh Hammer]

Frank, I appreciate it, it's good to be here. Remind me the title of the book, Israel and Civilization. The Fate of the Jewish Nation and the Destiny of the West.

[Frank Gaffney]

There we go. How timely is that? So describe for us, if you would, the thesis of this UN commission in finding that three leaders of Israel, including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, have engaged in the deliberate practice of genocide against the people of Gaza.

[Josh Hammer]

Well, that's essentially what it is. I mean the term genocide which really takes on new importance and heft in international law discourse Following World War II in particular, when it comes to Geneva and various other international treaties and tribunals like that, genocide does have not just an empirical discernible reality when it comes to peoples, populations, that are being killed. It also has the element of intent. You know, not to get all lawyerly here, but anytime there was kind of a normal crime that happens on the day to day streets of America, whether you know, whether it is a homicide or another kind of violent crime like a rape or even a property crime, robbery, larceny, whatever, there are two elements here. There is the intention and then there is the actual act itself. This for instance, is how when it comes to homicide, how we can differentiate between things like first degree murder, second degree manslaughter and so forth. So when it comes to going to the international realm with genocide, the very first thing to know is that genocide, in order to actually be genocide under the internationally accepted definition of genocide, there is an intent, a specific intent on behalf of the, the people, the group, the nation, whoever is Being accused of committing this most monstrous of atrocities to actually eradicate, to wipe out a population simply because that population fits a certain criteria, whether it is an ethnic criteria, a racial criterion, religious or so forth there. Frank, I don't think this audience needs necessarily hear this from me how ludicrous this is on its face when applied to the current conflict. But I guess I'll just explain why his so ludicrous on his face when it comes to the current conflict there. Look, first of all, I mean not to. I will dumb things down perhaps as low and as dumb as possible here. Israel is a nuclear armed country, okay? If they wanted to drop a nuclear bomb to Liquidate Gaza on October 8, 2023, the day after the pogrom, they easily could have done that. A country that is committing genocide would not be having almost a thousand of its young men sacrifice in the godforsaken cesspool and hellhole that is Gaza, there to try to appease various unappeasable international norms when it comes to trying to protect, quote unquote civilian life at all costs. A country that's committing genocide would not achieve, as the U.S. military Academy West Point professor John Spencer has calculated, would not achieve, the most humane civilian to combatant death ratio of about 1 to 1.5 in literally the entire history of a quarter urban warfare. A country committing genocide would not literally drop leaflets from the plane saying get out, we are about to make this building go blow. I mean there's just so many things that prove over and over and over again that Israel does not have the subjective intention to exterminate all of the Gazan Arab population. And I guess one final thing I'll say, Frank. The notion that Israel has genocidal proclivities or urges to eliminate all Arabs in general, if you want to kind of extrapolate beyond simply the Gaza Strip, is obviously preposterous and ludicrous. Roughly 20%, maybe even 25% now 20, 20% of Israel itself is Arab. And as you know, Arabs have achieved pretty high ranks in Israeli society when it comes to the Knesset, the legislature, when it comes to the courts, when it comes to academia, the medical profession, the legal profession, on and on we go there. So there's obviously no general ethnic intent on the part of the government to eradicate all Arabs there. And even when it comes to Gaza, it's ludicrous on its face. Israel has a very simp task at hand, which is to eliminate Hamas as a military and political installation, Frank. And that is all they are focused on, right now, in addition, of course, to retrieving the hostages and getting them home safely and alive.

[Frank Gaffney]

Of course. And Josh, I've done a commentary in the course of the day, and its thesis is basically, if there is genocide taking place in Hamas stands, if you will, it is at the hands of Hamas. It is the direct result of, first of all, their refusal to surrender, which has brought incalculable damage, of course, to their population. But they've also done a lot of damage to the population itself. Could you talk a little bit about this whole practice of human shields as well as actually starving their own people and on some occasions, shooting them if they seek relief?

[Josh Hammer]

Yeah, sure. So, look, a few things I think that are worth noting here. So let's start with October 7th. Okay. You know, people say they clamor for a ceasefire. They clamor for a cessation of hostilities. But as has been often noted, there was a ceasefire in Gaza on October 6, 2023. And every single death, I would argue every, literally every single death to a T that has happened in Gaza since October 7th is solely and exclusively attributable to Hamas. Even if the IDF misfired, a situation which obviously happens, this is the fog of war. No military is literally perfect. Every single death is ultimately attributed to the fact that they are going into Gaza in the first place because October 7th happened. So Hamas is solely and exclusively morally culpable for every single death in Gaza since October 7th. More to the point, and getting to your question, yeah, Hamas, it's very well established. They have been using human shields essentially since they took over the Gaza strip back in 2007. They are very careful to embed humans, civilians in the schools and the mosques where there are media outlets and journalism and journalists there. They do this over and over and over again. Because, Frank, for Hamas, dead civilians are not something to be bemoaned. They are actually something to be waved to the international reader to try to bamboozle and dupe people into hating Jews more than they already do. So if anyone is actually committing genocide in Gaza is frankly, Hamas against their own people, not the State of Israel, concur.

[Frank Gaffney]

It's a feature, not a bug, as it were, of their whole, well, method of war. And the practice that is seemingly almost completely unremarked by these globalists at the United nations with their anti Israel agenda, being, as you've documented in your book, Israel and Civilization, Josh Hammer, it's epidemic there. And it's the product, the product that we've been discussing here, this idea that Israel's engaged in genocide is just one manifestation of it, of course. Josh, we have to take a short break. We'll be right back with much more with the editor at large, Senior Editor at large of Newsweek, Josh Hammer. Stay tuned.

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[Frank Gaffney]

Talking with him about, well, the war for the free world as I call it, that is under the object of which on the part of assorted enemies who are making common cause with one another, as we'll talk about more in a few minutes with our friend Robert Spencer, is nothing short of the destruction of the Judeo Christian civilized world. Josh One of the people who stood with great courage against that threat from communists and jihadists alike, was a mutual friend of ours, the late as it is now, unfortunately, Charlie Kirk. I know you've worked with him for years and admired him as I think, did everybody who knew him really talk a little bit about what Charlie was saying and standing for in this moment and the implications of his silencing at the hands of, well, as yet to be determined, perhaps a single shooter, perhaps others.

[Josh Hammer]

Yeah, Frank, it's an incalculable loss. It is a truly devastating loss for the forces of civilizational sanity, as I call it, against the forces of civilizational arson. And you know, Charlie was a warrior for the heart and soul of the United States of America. He was also a warrior, as you correctly put it, for the heart and soul of the Judeo Christian West. He was a champion of the Jewish Christian Alliance. There are a lot of people now trying to retcon to historically revise his legacy. There are some provocateurs that are trying to posthumously convert him, shall we say, in a very nefarious direction. It's total nonsense. Over the past year, year and a half of his tragically truncated life, I was in near daily communication with Charlie. We often spoke about civilizational stakes. He oftentimes phrased it just as you and I have, just as my book does, as a as a civilizational battle between the biblical inheritance and the forces of barbarism, Sharia, supremacism, Islamism and so forth. In fact, less than 24 hours, less than 24 hours before he passed away, I was on a zoom call with Charlie and our mutual friend Rabbi Pesach Wolicki and a couple others and Rabbi Pesach And I were basically just answering a lot of his questions because he anticipated a lot of anti Israel questions on this tour. We were kind of helping him think through how to respond in real time to these keffiyeh clad radical college students. So the notion that Charlie was going in a bad direction, that's not the Charlie Kurt that I saw. The Charlie Kurt that I saw was an amazing American patriot, a principled, devout car Christian, an amazing father, and an amazing husband to his, to his widow Erica. And just a five star general, a titan, a real five star general again, in our civilizational class. It is a massive, massive void. And all we can do, Frank, is do our best in our individual capacities to try to carry on that torch. Because it is quite a legacy that he has left in his only 31 years on this earth.

[Frank Gaffney]

Amen. Thank you. That was as well articulated as I think anybody has, with the possible exception of Erica Kirk herself, who delivered one of the most magnificent eulogies I've ever heard, as I think you would agree. Let me ask you, you mentioned Rabbi Pesek Wolicki. He's a frequent contributor to this program, I'm proud to say. In fact, we spoke to him a couple of days ago and I was with him last night in a program that Robert Spencer keynoted here in Dallas. What's going on with the attacks on the rabbi, as I understand it, primarily for participating in that conversation, or perhaps those that preceded it with Charlie. I think he's being slandered as a Basil handler for this great American. What do you say in response to such defamation, sir?

[Josh Hammer]

You know, it's obviously ludicrous. Frank, a lot of this goes back actually a little bit further. I believe it was in July, of memory serves, mid to late July, Rabbi Willickley went on the Charlie Kirk show to debunk the allegations of so called famine in Gaza. It was a pretty reasonably timed segment, maybe a 15 minute segment there. And Charlie, as he came to do in the last year or two as the anti Israel hysteria, has really gained a fever pitch, he got a lot of negative pushback simply for having the temerity to have on a politically conservative rabbi to discuss this issue. But Rabbi Wulicki has always handled this sort of thing with aplomb. He's not the kind of guy who is going to second guess what he thinks or second guess his instincts or his judgments or his character or his core beliefs simply because of the backlash from the mob. And then a lot of these cries have accelerated in the aftermath, as you said, of the reporting from both the New York Post and a couple other outlets. I saw that we had the zoom call the night before. But I mean, what is there to say? I mean, people are just so dumb, Frank. I mean, the notion that you can be impeached because of what you say. Based on what? Based on the fact that you're Jewish, Based on the fact that you wear a kippah like I do, based on the fact that in Rabbi Wolicki's case, he lives in Israel, I live here in Florida, for what it's worth. I mean, it's just so utterly preposterous on his face there. I mean, try to combat someone when it comes to the substance and content of what he is saying. Don't try to impeach him based on arbitrary characteristics elsewhere. Charlie, to his great credit, never sought to do that himself, which is why he was killing, counseling and seeking advice from what he referred to as his brain trust on this issue, which was folks like Rabbi Wolicki, myself and a couple others right up until the final hours.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, I honestly can't imagine a better group of people to be bouncing ideas off of. And I thank you for taking the time and the considerable creative effort that it would take to support a guy like Charlie, whose free range mind and whose voracious appetite for ideas and whose need to be informed to the maximum degree possible for these interactions, many of which folks, by the way, on these college campus experiences in particular, which has proved me wrong, we're all about the controversy surrounding this war that Israel has had thrust upon it. On October 7, 2023. Let me ask you in closing, one last question, Josh, you have an appreciation of the magnitude of the stakes in these, well, debates at best, at worst, these incipient and quite possibly now increasingly actual violent interactions with people who adhere to one or the other of these ideologies inside this country as well as elsewhere. Could you just speak to the proposition? We had a webinar, really powerful one on the series we call the Committee on the President Endangered China's weekly unrestricted warfare Program, that Xi Jinping, the dictator of Communist China, may have his ultimate plan for taking down this country, fomenting and perhaps even instigating Civil War 2.0. Your thoughts are. And if it's of concern to you, what should we be doing about it?

[Josh Hammer]

Frank, everything about China concerns me. I am very much a China first person. Which, by the way, is actually part of my argument for Israel, by the way. It's actually part of the Trump administration's case for Israel is that when you embolden Israel, when you get Abraham Accord style diplomacy in the Middle east there, you basically, you will enable our allies to patrol that region in a way that then allows America to focus on its true civilizational threat, the Chinese Communist Party. So I've been saying for, I've been saying for a long time that the Chinese Communist party is America's 21st century threat. That is our functional equivalent of the Soviet Union in the latter part of the 20th century and considerably worse, actually, in many ways. You're totally right about that, actually. So yes, I am greatly concerned and in many ways, actually to kind of double down this analogy, trying to meddle in our domestic politics and try to cede discord to, to foment angst and try to kind of rabble rouse and get people to try to commit potentially violence against one another, that actually is itself an old communist tactic, an old Soviet tactic there. The Soviets did this all the time during the heyday of the 1960s, during.

[Frank Gaffney]

The days divide and conquer. Divide and conquer. Josh, we are hard out of time. I want you to come back soon for a further conversation about this. It's so important. Josh Hammer, Senior Editor at large, Newsweek author of Israel and Civilization. Thank you for your time today.

[Josh Hammer]

Thank you, my friend.

[Frank Gaffney]

God bless you. Be right back.

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The US electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use. Our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news, one solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] Would you guys consider anything.

[Christina Williams]

Less than the championship to be a failure from this year?

[Unknown Host]

I wouldn't say anything is a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. That's there's no doubt in that. And that's the goal. We want to win a championship.

[Christina Williams]

I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast In Case you missed it with Christina Williams. The WNBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else.

[WNBA Player or Analyst]

It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge.

[Christina Williams]

That we have for all the biggest stories in women's basketball, plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars.

[Unknown Host]

So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way and we're hoping to, you know, make it run.

[Christina Williams]

So listen to In Case youe Missed it with Christina Williams, an iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's why we started Normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.

[Carol Markowitz]

We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of normally every Tuesday.

[Carol Markowitz]

And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[Frank Gaffney]

We're back, and I'm delighted to say so. Is Robert Spencer one of the most prodigiously formidable public intellectuals I have had the privilege of knowing and working with? Prodigious, notably in his voluminous output, some 32 books published to date or in the process of being published as we speak, most of them dealing with topics of paramount importance to the survival of Judeo Christian civilization, specifically from the threat we face in the form of, well, Sharia, the Islamic operating code, as I think of it, that compels its adherence to to engage in jihad for the purposes of establishing a caliphate, a global theocracy worldwide in its application overall. Not just Jews and Christians, of course, but everybody. Robert is a very important contributor to the policy debate, no doubt through his role as director of Jihad Watch. You can follow his work [e-mail] also he is a columnist and very important contributor to Front Page magazine and PJ Media. He is in Addition to all of that, a personal friend of mine. I'm extremely proud of having him as one of our Senior Fellows at our Institute for the American Future, and always delighted to have him as a contributor of this program. Robert, welcome back, my friend. It's great to talk with you.

[Robert Spencer]

Always good to talk to you, Frank. Thank you.

[Frank Gaffney]

We had the privilege of being present last night for a very important keynote address you made to the American Jewish Conservatives in Dallas, Texas. And I wanted very much for you to share with our audience your insights on the question of the ambitions of these jihadis and whether they can be talked out of it by various ceasefires or peace talks or other parlays. Your thoughts, sir?

[Robert Spencer]

Well, Frank, the. The Quran is very clear that you don't lay down your arms when you have the upper hand. And so that I think we should understand as a guiding principle of the jihad and realize that what that means is that these struggles are never going to end. While the west is exactly doing, Doing exactly what it's doing now in giving reprieves and trying to make peace and so on. That only emboldens the jihadis because they see it as an admission of weakness and a sign that they should not stop fighting now, but keep pressing forward to final victory.

[Frank Gaffney]

And as I understand it, if they see an enemy who is powerful behaving in a conciliatory fashion, let alone making very significant concessions, not only is that an object of contempt, but it actually emboldens them to become even more insistent on achieving a final victory. Is that correct?

[Robert Spencer]

Absolutely. You see, the idea is that the concessions themselves represent a readiness on the part of the west to lay down their arms, to surrender, in effect. And so they don't see this as, oh, this is a gesture of goodwill, we have to reciprocate with a like, gesture of goodwill. They see it as, these people realize that they're losing or think that they're losing, and so now would be exactly, exactly the worst time to stop fighting.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, it's kind of hard to get your head around this mindset, Robert, but we've been told that the, well, terrorists like Hamas, for example, in Gaza are persuaded that if they simply survive, no matter how terribly they've been punished and their, you know, society has been disrupted and their, you know, physical infrastructure taken down, they will still be victorious if they, in fact, get well to survive this onslaught from the Israelis. Would that be, again, correct, both in the moment, but also in terms of the history of jihad and Islam?

[Robert Spencer]

Very much so, Frank. As a matter of fact, Naim Qasim, who is now the leader of Hezbollah after the death of Hassan Nasrallah, he said that straight out not too long ago. Survival, the fact that we survived is a victory. And that's because the jihad never ends. The war against unbelievers in order to subjugate them under the hegemony of Islamic law. That is a never ending struggle. It does not come to an end with some peace treaty being signed and everything goes back to normal. That's a Western construct. In the Islamic way of warfare, the only end to the Jihad is when the entire world is Islamized. And so Naim Qasem is saying, they didn't destroy us, and so we will fight them again later. And this is the mindset that Western policymakers and negotiators and so called experts never seem to grasp.

[Frank Gaffney]

There's a term for this, if I'm not mistaken, Hudna. What's the derivation of that term? And in practice, what does it mean?

[Robert Spencer]

A hudna is a truce. And it's the exact same thing that we're talking about from the other angle. If the Islamic armies are losing, then they can conclude a treaty with the infidels for a period of up to 10 years in order to gather their strength to fight again more effectively. So it's not a peace treaty. It's not the end of hostilities. It's only an opportunity for the Muslim forces to gain some breathing room so that they don't get defeated ultimately. And this is actually Islamic law based on the example of Muhammad from Islamic tradition. When he concluded the treaty of Hudaybiya with the Quraysh, the pagan Arabs, he was in a position of weakness. And so he concluded a peace treaty with them, which he almost immediately, within a year or two, proceeded to break when the Muslims were in a stronger military position.

[Frank Gaffney]

Robert, you're touching on a point that I think is not adequately understood by most of us, and that is the importance of Muhammad's personal experience and practice. There is, of course, as you have documented, documented in your critical biography of him, some reason to believe that most of what we're told about this man is apocryphal. But it doesn't matter, for the purposes of this particular point, whether he lived or whether he didn't live, whether he had revelations, whether he didn't. There are hundreds of millions of people around this planet who believe that he was the perfect man, unquote, and his every utterance and personal practice, as I say, is to be emulated. Is that right? And what are the implications of that, given some of those practices.

[Robert Spencer]

Yeah, that's absolutely right, Frank. Chapter 33, verse 21 of the Quran makes it very clear, says Muhammad is an excellent example for the believers. And that is taken in Islamic theology and practice in an absolute sense. If Muhammad did something, then Muslims should do it. It's just that simple. So you may see, for example, quite a few Muslim men with their beards dyed, henna, dyed to this sort of bizarre orange color. And that's because Muhammad did it when he started going grey. And so it must be right. And this is the, the kind of detail in which this injunction that Muhammad is an excellent example is followed. The reason why this matters to non Muslims is that Muhammad waged unprovoked war against non Muslim entities and subjugated them under his rule. And so that is also an enduring part of Islam and an aspect of what it means to follow Muhammad's example.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah. Among the revelations, Robert, are some that describe how Muslims are supposed to interact with, particularly people of the Book, Jews and Christians that are quite benign, quite peaceable, quite tolerant. And yet there are other passages that command the faithful Muslim to engage in jihad and to destroy such unbelievers, such pagans. How does Muhammad's personal example bear on which of those pertains?

[Robert Spencer]

Well, there is in Islamic tradition the understanding that Muhammad became a prophet in the city of Mecca and then later, after 12 years, moved to the city of Medina. This is the hijra or emigration that marks actually the official beginning of Islam according to the Islamic calendar, when Muhammad moved to Medina because it was in Medina that he became a political and military leader. Leader. So the Meccan passages of the Quran, I.e. the passages of the Quran that are considered to have been revealed while Muhammad was in Mecca are revealed at a time when the Muslims were a small and weak group without political or military power. And so they preach tolerance because they wanted the tolerance for themselves. Later, when Muhammad is in Medina and he does have political and military, military power, the Quran passages that are considered to come from that time are all about, not all about, but preoccupied to a great degree with waging war and subjugating the people of the Book and.

[Frank Gaffney]

Others and providing a justification, theological justification for doing just that. Robert, we have to take a short break. When we come back, I want to talk with you about Sharia and its role in squaring this circle and commanding certain behavior and what it means in practice in our time. Be right back with Robert Spencer. Stay tuned.

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[Propane Advertiser]

The US electric grid is approaching a breaking point as demand soars from data centers and home energy use. Our infrastructure can't keep up, and the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] Would you guys consider anything.

[Christina Williams]

Less than a championship to be a failure from this year?

[Unknown Host]

I wouldn't say anything is a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously the goal is a championship. That's there's no doubt in that. And that's the goal. We want to win a championship.

[Christina Williams]

I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast in case you missed it with Christina Williams. The WNBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else.

[WNBA Player or Analyst]

It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge.

[Christina Williams]

That we have for all the biggest stories in women's basketball, plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars.

[Unknown Host]

So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way and we're hoping to, you know, make it run.

[Christina Williams]

So listen to In Case youe Missed it with Christina Williams, an iHeart woman sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Long enough to know that it's gotten, well, a little insane.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's why we started normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.

[Carol Markowitz]

We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth Seriously.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of Normally every Tuesday.

[Carol Markowitz]

And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[Frank Gaffney]

Welcome back. We're visiting with Robert Spencer, one of our great resources on matters involving, well, not just Sharia and Islam and jihad and all that flows from it, but also the involvement that we are witnessing, even as we speak, of communists who are making common cause with the jihadis. And we're going to talk more about that in a moment. But before we do, Robert, I wanted to pick up on something that emanates from our previous conversation about Sharia as the path, as the directive for behavior to ensure Muslim faithful are following in the footsteps of Muhammad. And as I understand it, there's a. There's a principle called abrogation that is applied, and I think it's probably central to the whole notion of Sharia, that somehow what was said in Mecca, what Allah shared with Muhammad there, changed so dramatically when he made that hijra to Medina. Talk about abrogation, talk about what that results in in terms of the definitive direction to Muslims and what it means for those of us who would just like to be at peace with these folks.

[Robert Spencer]

Well, Frank, abrogation is the result of the fact that the Quran as well as the traditions of Muhammad are full of contradictions. For example, at one point the Quran says that alcohol is of some benefit to human beings, and at another point it says alcohol is from Satan. And so that is reconciled with the principle of abrogation, which is also itself in the quran. In chapter two, verse 100, when we cancel or abrogate a passage, we or cause you to forget it, then we will substitute one that is just as good or better. And so the idea is that if something, some passage contradicts another, then the later one, the one that is considered to have come chronologically later in Muhammad's life, cancels or supersedes the earlier one. Now, when it comes to the warfare against unbelievers, then you have the earlier Meccan passages according to the traditional understanding, and the later Medinan passages that are much more bellicose than the Meccan passages. And because they came later in the career of Muhammad, the bellicose passages are considered to cancel or supersede the tolerant ones. Now, that doesn't mean that you should just drop out. Some people ask me when I talk about this, well, why don't they just remove these abrogated passages from the Qur'? An? Because they do have an application. If you were in the position of Muhammad in Mecca, a small weak group, then you preach tolerance. But then when you later gain power, you stop talking about tolerance and begin to be much more aggressive in asserting the elements of Islamic law over the non Muslims. And that is what we're seeing now in America, the transition from what you could call the Meccan period to the Medinan period.

[Frank Gaffney]

And is that primarily, Robert, a function of demographics? As they become numerous and particularly in a democratic society like ours, they can begin to play perhaps a kingmaker role in elections. That aggressiveness, Medinan, you know, directives kick in?

[Robert Spencer]

Well, it has a great deal to do with demographics, but it also has to do, or primarily has to do to do with political power, which doesn't necessarily depend upon demographics. It depends upon the situation of the country that they're in and how accommodating and appeasement minded the infidels are and how easy it is for the Muslims to attain political power. And so now we see in the United States with both parties courting the Muslim vote and trying to get Muslims in the aggregate to vote for them. We see that the we see, for example, an imam in Houston quite recently going into stores and telling them, you better stop selling alcohol and pork or we're going to start demonstrations. And he did start the demonstrations. And this is he is proceeding from the assumption that nobody in the Houston area, no politician is going to have the guts to say anything to him or to stop this behavior. And so Sharia will continue to be able to expand. And he's right about that. We don't have any politicians who are willing to stand up to this kind of thing and real or even realize its implications.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, let me ask you about that, Robert, because on the one hand I was at a presentation that Senator Ted Cruz from Texas had at the Heritage foundation just last week and he was very forthright about the fact that Sharia cannot be practiced in Texas. And he's working on, as you know, a piece of legislation to designate the Muslim Brotherhood prime mover behind Sharia, of course, worldwide as a terrorist organization. Also, Robert, I wanted to get your thoughts on this as well. The governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, has recently signed legislation and he made some very sweeping declarations that this prohibits the practice of Sharia in Texas and that it will not be permitted. What are we to make of such comments? Are they not in indications that in fact people in political life are opposing this kind of behavior?

[Robert Spencer]

Well, I'll tell you, I guess that I have to say I'll believe it when I see it. It's one thing to make a declaration, it's another thing to work on enforcement. And as far as I know, nothing has been done regarding this imam strong arming businesses and demanding that they adhere to Sharia principles. If he is at very least made, if he is brought into some public forum and it is made clear to him that in the United States we have a pluralistic society where there's nothing illegal about selling alcohol and pork and he must not practice intimidation against these businesses, well, then I'll say, yes, it's happening.

[Frank Gaffney]

Well, and one also would like to see in that legislation that the governor signed and some reference to Sharia, let alone a reference that makes it clear that it is not operable in Texas, something that we hope will be forthcoming in the next legislation cycle of the Texas Legislature. Robert we have to take another break. We'll be right back with more on so many of these fronts, particularly the communist one with Robert Spencer right after this.

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[Propane Advertiser]

The US electric grid is approaching a breaking point as demand soars from data centers and home energy use. Our aging infrastructure can't keep up and the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready, powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] Would you guys consider anything.

[Christina Williams]

Less than a championship to be a failure from this year?

[Unknown Host]

I wouldn't say anything is a failure, especially because we all grow every day. Obviously, the goal is a championship. There's no doubt in that. And that's the goal. We want to win a championship.

[Christina Williams]

I'm Christina Williams, host of the podcast. In case you missed it with Christina Williams, the WNBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else.

[WNBA Player or Analyst]

It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the the new challenge that we have for all the.

[Christina Williams]

Biggest stories in women's basketball, plus exclusive interviews with the game's brightest stars.

[Unknown Host]

So to be here, I think it's one that we definitely don't take for granted. But we also know, you know, that's just one stop along the way and we're hoping to, you know, make it run.

[Christina Williams]

So listen to in case you missed it with Christina Williams and iHeart women's sports production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

Hey there. I'm Mary Kathryn Hamm.

[Carol Markowitz]

And I'm Carol Markowitz. We've been in political media for a long time, long enough to know that.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

It'S gotten, well, a little insane.

[Carol Markowitz]

That's why we started normalely a podcast for people who are over the hysteria and just want clarity.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

We talk about the issues that actually matter to the country without panic, without yelling, and with a healthy dose of humor.

[Carol Markowitz]

We don't take ourselves too seriously, but we do take the truth seriously.

[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

So if you're into common sense, sanity, and some occasional sass, you're our kind of people. Catch new episodes of normally every Tuesday.

[Carol Markowitz]

And Thursday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.

[Frank Gaffney]

We're back. And so is Robert Spencer for a final segment with him on some of the work that he is doing at jihadwatch.org, project of the David Horowitz Freedom Center. I strongly encourage you to make it one of your default resources. It's a fabulous, highly informative vehicle for learning about, well, not only what jihadis are up to, but who's helping them. And, and in particular, what Robert does on that site, jihadwatch.org as well as in his columns and essays and public addresses like the one I had the privilege of being at last night in Dallas, Texas. He's talking about a red green axis. I've come to call it red, green, blue, because I think there are globalists in the mix, but particularly the folks who are seemingly poised to go violent in this country, the communists on the one hand and the Sharia supremacists on the other, are of very, very urgent concern. And Robert, I wanted to just ask you, as we've talked about on this program before, but you spoke about it very powerfully last night here in Dallas. This fellow Zoran Mandani, who is seeking the mayoralty position in New York City in the upcoming general election, is a man who kind of personifies, one might even call him the poster Child of the red green axis. Talk about him as a woman way of sort of sharing more broadly your concerns about what this partnership, this modus vivendi, if you will, is up to and what it might mean for our country. In New York City, for sure, but far beyond as well.

[Robert Spencer]

Well, in the first place, there's no doubt that he is a Marxist. He denies that he is a communist, but he really makes it quite clear that he is when he says the goal is to seize the means of production and making statements about how housing has to be decommodified, that is removed from the private sector so that everybody is living in government housing. If you've ever seen government housing, you can imagine how terrible that would be. What he's talking about is a vision of utopia that is identical to what we saw in the Soviet Union and in other Marxist entities. At the same time, he's a Twelver Shiite. That is the governing ideology, the official religion of the Islamic Republic of Iran, where they frequently chant Death to America. And it has to be noted that the Ayatollah Khamenei, the supreme leader of Iran, said that Death to America is not just a slogan, it's a policy. It's the goal of the regime. And consequently, you have in Mamdani, as you said, the poster child, the highest point so far of the red green axis, a man who is the adherent of two ideologies that hate America and that want to see it destroyed and have been completely clear about wishing to do so. Now, of course, he will not have free reign to do everything he wants to do as mayor of New York, but he can certainly wreak havoc upon the city and secondarily upon the nation at large in his efforts to bring it into line with his vision.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yes, and again, I just want you to reprise something you've said again on this program previously, but also in the course of your remarks last night. That particular strain of the Muslim or Sharia ideology that he adheres to is particularly ominous. This practice known as the Twelvers. Remind us what that's about, Robert, and why, given its tenets, the last guy you would want running New York City, particularly its security, would be somebody who embraces that ideology.

[Robert Spencer]

It is an apocalyptic doomsday theology, Frank. The idea is that when the Muslims are facing a period of immense persecution, then their savior figure, the 12th Imam, will emerge from the occultation, it's called, or the hiding. He's been in for 1200 years, almost 1200 years, and will conquer and Islamize the world and essentially Kill everyone who doesn't become a Twelver Shiite. Now, this is something the leaders of the Islamic Republic takes with extreme seriousness. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the former president of Iran, while he was president, actually had a highway built from the well where the 12th Imam is now hiding to Tehran so that when he comes out, he can immediately start his mission. Now, the thing is that he will only come when the Muslims are being more persecuted than they have ever been. And there have been some Iranian leaders who have linked this idea to nuking Israel and then receiving retaliatory nukes that would result in the deaths of tens of millions or 10 to 15 million Muslims. And they think that would bring the 12th Imam back. And so this is an extremely dangerous theology that embraces violence, looks to violence as the way for the culmination of all things to begin. And so that's obviously a matter of grave concern for those of us who could be caught up in that violence.

[Frank Gaffney]

Yeah, which could be an awful lot of it, in fact, certainly in New York City, but possibly as a result of, you know, insecurity there elsewhere across America. And, Robert, just a final point on this. One of our colleagues, as you know, is Sam Fad, who is a very distinguished veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency, spent most of his time undercover as a spy, but in his last position was responsible for weapons of mass destruction, terrorism, you know, trying to prevent it from happening inside our country. In particular, he is very concerned about the possibility that we would have a very, very porous situation in New York City, possibly giving rise to precisely that kind of terrorism. And again, the lamentations that might be, you know, emanating from vast destruction in Iran, if it attacked Israel, could be greatly compounded by a sort of apocalyptic situation in our country as well. Robert, we have to leave it at that. I thank you for your insights in all of these matters. They are of such incredible importance. You've written a book that will be out very shortly about Zoram Hamdani. Rather, I strongly commend to everyone that you pre order it now. And, Robert, you will be back with us in the very near future. God bless you, my friend. Keep up the good work. We'll be right back. That's all for today, folks. Come back to us next time, if you would. Until then, go forth and multiply.

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[Mary Kathryn Hamm]

On has a chance to win a championship.

[Christina Williams]

I'm Kristina Williams, host of the podcast in case you missed it with Kristina Williams. The WNBA playoffs are here and I've got the inside scoop on everything from key matchups and standout players to the behind the scenes moments you won't find anywhere else.

[WNBA Player or Analyst]

It's really, really hard to be the champions, but we have to remember how it feels and embrace the new challenge that we have.

[Christina Williams]

So listen to in case youe Missed it with Christina Williams in I Heart Women's Sports Production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and entertainment on iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

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