Podcast Summary: Securing America with Frank Gaffney – September 20, 2025

Main Theme & Purpose

This episode of "Securing America with Frank Gaffney" focuses on defending American and Western civilization against threats posed by jihadist movements and their intersection with far-left and globalist ideologies. The conversation draws heavily on recent events—particularly regarding Israel, accusations of genocide by the United Nations, and the ongoing ideological and existential wars facing the Judeo-Christian West. The episode features two key interviews: first with Josh Hammer (Senior Editor-at-Large at Newsweek), and then with Robert Spencer (Director of Jihad Watch and prolific author).

Segment 1: The UN, Israel, and the “Genocide” Accusation

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [02:36]–[12:24])

Key Discussion Points

• UN Investigation & Accusation:
  Gaffney introduces the episode by calling attention to a "breaking news" story in which a UN commission has accused Israeli leaders including Prime Minister Netanyahu of committing genocide in Gaza.

• Definition and Misuse of Genocide:
  Hammer, drawing on his legal background, explains that genocide requires both intent and action—specifically, the deliberate intention to eradicate a group.

  • "Genocide... does have not just an empirical discernible reality... It also has the element of intent." – Joshua Hammer [05:15]
  • Hammer argues that Israel does not meet this standard, citing Israel’s military restraint, humanitarian efforts (like dropping leaflets to warn civilians), and the presence of Arab citizens at all levels of Israeli society.

• Israel's Actual Intentions in Gaza:
  Hammer maintains that Israel’s limited goal is the destruction of Hamas as a military and political actor, not the population of Gaza:

  • “Israel has a very simp[le] task at hand, which is to eliminate Hamas... That is all they are focused on right now...” – Josh Hammer [08:45]

• Humanitarian Ratios:
  Hammer references West Point professor John Spencer’s research showing Israel has maintained the most humane civilian-combatant death ratio in recent urban warfare history:

  • “A country committing genocide would not... achieve the most humane civilian to combatant death ratio of about 1 to 1.5 in literally the entire history of a quarter urban warfare.” – Josh Hammer [07:55]

• Arab Citizens in Israel:
  Hammer highlights that 20–25% of Israel’s citizens are Arab, many of whom achieve high status and positions.

Notable Quote

“If they wanted to drop a nuclear bomb to Liquidate Gaza on October 8, 2023, they easily could have done that. A country that is committing genocide would not be having almost a thousand of its young men sacrifice in the godforsaken cesspool and hellhole that is Gaza.” – Josh Hammer [07:11]

Segment 2: Hamas’s Warfare Tactics—and True Responsibility

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [09:00]–[12:24])

Key Discussion Points

• Responsibility for Gaza Casualties:
  Hammer attributes all deaths in Gaza post-October 7th to Hamas, stating their attack broke an existing ceasefire and all further conflict stems from that initial aggression.
  • “Every single death is ultimately attributed to the fact that they are going into Gaza in the first place because October 7th happened.” – Josh Hammer [10:13]
• Human Shields and Propaganda:
  Discussion of how Hamas embeds itself in civilian infrastructure, using human shields as a deliberate strategy to manipulate international opinion by maximizing civilian casualties.
  • “For Hamas, dead civilians are not something to be bemoaned. They are actually something to be waved to the international reader to try to bamboozle and dupe people into hating Jews more than they already do.” – Josh Hammer [10:45]

Segment 3: Remembering Charlie Kirk & Defending Allies

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [15:16]–[21:24])

Key Discussion Points

• Charlie Kirk’s Legacy:
  Both Gaffney and Hammer mourn Kirk’s recent death and recount his commitment to defending the Judeo-Christian West, noting attempts by detractors to rewrite his legacy.

  • “He was a warrior for the heart and soul of the United States... He was a champion of the Jewish Christian Alliance.” – Josh Hammer [16:41]

• Attacks on Allies:
  Hammer defends Rabbi Pesach Wolicki, who faced slander for participating in Israel-related discussions and supporting Kirk.

  • “Rabbi Wulicki has always handled this sort of thing with aplomb... Don’t try to impeach him based on arbitrary characteristics.” – Josh Hammer [20:02]

Segment 4: China, Civilizational Threats & Potential for Civil Strife

(Frank Gaffney with Josh Hammer, [21:24]–[24:47])

Key Discussion Points

• China as Chief Adversary:
  Hammer underscores that the Chinese Communist Party presents the greatest strategic threat to the U.S., surpassing the Soviet Union in scale and methods.

  • “The Chinese Communist party is America’s 21st century threat... and considerably worse, actually, in many ways.” – Josh Hammer [23:20]

• Fomenting Division in the U.S.:
  Discussion of how foreign actors, especially communist China, may attempt to instigate internal conflict (Civil War 2.0) through subversion and playing on U.S. divisions.

  • “Trying to meddle in our domestic politics... is itself an old communist tactic.” – Josh Hammer [23:50]

Segment 5: Jihad, the West & the Futility of Appeasement

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [29:43]–[39:46])

Key Discussion Points

• Jihadi Ambitions & Western Delusions:
  Spencer explains, based on Islamic texts, that true jihad never ends until global Islamic supremacy is achieved. Peace talks and ceasefires are perceived as Western weakness and only embolden jihadists.

  • “The Quran is very clear that you don’t lay down your arms when you have the upper hand... what that means is that these struggles are never going to end.” – Robert Spencer [30:21]

• The Doctrine of Hudna (Truce):
  A truce in Islamic law, according to Spencer, is merely a temporary reprieve, not a genuine peace, allowing Muslims to rebuild strength before fighting resumes.

  • “A hudna is a truce... only an opportunity for the Muslim forces to gain some breathing room... not the end of hostilities.” – Robert Spencer [34:13]

• Muhammad’s Example & Abrogation:
  Islamic law holds Muhammad as the ultimate model, and later, more aggressive Quranic verses override earlier, tolerant ones (the doctrine of abrogation).

  • “If Muhammad did something, then Muslims should do it. It’s just that simple.” – Robert Spencer [36:21]
  • “The bellicose passages are considered to cancel or supersede the tolerant ones.” – Robert Spencer [44:50]

Segment 6: The Practice and Expansion of Sharia in America

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [42:39]–[49:52])

Key Discussion Points

• Transition from Tolerant to Aggressive Sharia:
  Spencer asserts that Muslim communities may espouse tolerance when weak but assert aggressive sharia norms as they gain power, helped by political and demographic shifts.

  • “If you were in the position of Muhammad in Mecca, a small weak group, then you preach tolerance. But then when you later gain power, you... begin to be much more aggressive...” – Robert Spencer [45:21]

• Challenges of Enforcement:
  Although some U.S. politicians (e.g., Senator Ted Cruz, Governor Greg Abbott) claim to oppose sharia enforcement, Spencer doubts actual efforts to check the expansion of sharia-based norms.

  • “It’s one thing to make a declaration, it’s another thing to work on enforcement.” – Robert Spencer [49:12]

Segment 7: The Red-Green Axis – The Islamist-Marxist Alliance

(Frank Gaffney with Robert Spencer, [53:23]–[59:39])

Key Discussion Points

• Marxist-Islamist Coalition:
  Spencer analyzes the growing alliance between Islamists (“green”) and far-left Marxists (“red”), exemplified by figures like Zoran Mamdani—a Shiite Muslim and Marxist running for New York City mayor—whom Spencer regards as a poster child for this axis.

  • “At the same time, he’s a Twelver Shiite... the governing ideology, the official religion of the Islamic Republic of Iran, where they frequently chant Death to America.” – Robert Spencer [56:31]

• Twelver Shiism and Apocalypticism:
  Spencer describes the apocalyptic beliefs of Twelver Shia, emphasizing their readiness for violence and martyrdom to precipitate the return of the “12th Imam.”

  • “It is an apocalyptic doomsday theology, Frank... looks to violence as the way for the culmination of all things...” – Robert Spencer [58:05]

• Dangers to Western Security:
  The risk, according to Spencer and cited intelligence sources, is that such individuals could leave major American cities (like NYC) vulnerable to terrorism and instability.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "If there is genocide taking place in Hamas-stands, if you will, it is at the hands of Hamas. It is the direct result of, first of all, their refusal to surrender..."
  – Frank Gaffney [09:00]

• "He [Charlie Kirk] was a warrior for the heart and soul of the United States of America..."
  – Josh Hammer [16:41]

• "Survival, the fact that we survived, is a victory. And that's because the jihad never ends."
  – Robert Spencer [32:59]

• "The only end to the Jihad is when the entire world is Islamized."
  – Robert Spencer [33:58]

• "Abrogation is the result of the fact that the Quran as well as the traditions of Muhammad are full of contradictions."
  – Robert Spencer [44:16]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:36] – Opening: UN accusations and introduction of Josh Hammer
• [05:12] – Genocide’s legal definition and Israel’s actions in Gaza
• [09:00] – Hamas, human shields, and mistreatment of Gazans
• [15:16] – The legacy and recent death of Charlie Kirk
• [21:24] – The China threat and risk of civil discord in the US
• [29:43] – Start of Robert Spencer interview: why ceasefires embolden jihad
• [34:12] – The concept of Hudna in Islamic law
• [36:19] – Muhammad as model for Muslim behavior
• [44:16] – The principle of abrogation in the Quran
• [46:25] – The shift from tolerant to aggressive Sharia as political power increases
• [53:23] – Rise of the Red-Green Axis: Zoran Mamdani as archetype
• [58:01] – Twelver Shi'ism, apocalyptic violence, and security risks for the West

Tone and Closing Note

The tone of the episode is urgent, cautionary, and at times combative—blending legal, historical, and polemical analysis. Gaffney and his guests consistently frame their discussion as a battle for the "civilized" world’s future, demanding vigilance, clarity, and strong response from Western societies.

For listeners who missed the episode:
This installment offers an in-depth, two-part briefing on the existential challenges facing America and Israel from jihadism, leftist coalitions, and global destabilization, bolstered by legal, theological, and political insights from two leading conservative experts.