Talking to Cha Vang, A Hmong Leader | THE SECRET WAR w/ Professor Penn & Cha Vang | EP256

Summary

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Real America’s Voice – Professor Penn Episode 256: "Talking to Cha Vang, A Hmong Leader – The Secret War" (Nov 20, 2025)

Main Theme

This episode explores the untold history, sacrifices, and contemporary challenges of the Hmong community in America—particularly in Minnesota—through a candid, in-depth conversation between host David Penn (“Professor Penn”) and Cha Vang, son of legendary Hmong General Vang Pao. Together, they trace the Hmong people’s journey from China and Southeast Asia to the U.S., the “Secret War” in Laos, the community’s struggles with integration and identity, and the political realities of being an “emerging constituency” in American civic life. The dialogue is rooted in shared stories of loss, survival, betrayal, culture, and the search for belonging in the American political landscape.

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Episode Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Setting the Context: Hmong in America & Political Engagement

• David Penn explains his mission to inspire listeners to civic engagement, especially holding politicians accountable and encouraging participation from “emerging constituencies”—communities new to American culture and politics, like the Hmong (04:15–09:30).
• Cha Vang introduces himself and notes the Hmong community in Minnesota is around 100,000 strong, and nearly 400,000 in the U.S., mainly in California, Wisconsin, and Minnesota (10:34).
• Notable moment: The hosts discover that younger listeners—and even young team members—know little of the Hmong’s presence or story (10:42).

“How can you miss 100,000 people?” —David Penn (10:37)

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2. Hmong History: From China to Southeast Asia

• Cha Vang traces the Hmong’s ancient roots in southern China, recounting the betrayal and murder of the Hmong king, their forced migration, and how persecution kept their language and culture underground—often encoded in tapestry (11:56–16:17).
• The Hmong are likened to the “Jewish people of Southeast Asia”—a people without a land, forced to survive in mountainous regions after being displaced from fertile lowlands (16:41–17:44).

“They wanted to keep us divided forever… couldn’t have our own alphabet, our own language. The Hmong women… started doing storytelling in their tapestry, in the clothing.”—Cha Vang (15:22)

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3. 20th Century Turmoil: World War II, French Colonialism, and the Secret War

• The Hmong fought the Japanese during WWII—aligned with French and U.S. aims, not always directly but shared objectives (18:09–20:25).
• Cha Vang recounts General Vang Pao’s rise: a local errand boy noticed by the French, later leading Hmong battalions allied with the French (23:51).
• The aftermath of the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu is described as a pivotal betrayal—General Vang Pao’s men were denied resources that could have changed the outcome, revealing how “big powers” often sacrifice locals for geopolitical ends (25:35–27:35).

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4. The Secret War in Laos: Alliances, Betrayal, and Aftermath

• The Hmong as CIA-backed guerrillas: Following the French withdrawal, the Americans (CIA) supported the Hmong “Special Guerrilla Units” in Laos to fight Communists (29:21–29:36).
• The war in Laos (“the Secret War”) saw the Hmong lose around 10% of their population (35,000 people). Despite fierce resistance, U.S. policy shifted due to larger geopolitical deals—most notably Nixon’s rapprochement with China and Kissinger’s secret deals (30:17–39:02).

“To be an enemy of the United States can be dangerous. But to be a friend… can be deadly.” —(Bill Colby quote, recalled by Cha Vang, 40:40–41:11)

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5. Fallout: Refugee Experience, Loss, and Starting Over

• As the communists won in Laos, Hmong allies were left behind, many killed; Cha Vang movingly shares his father’s pain at leaving home for the last time (67:08–67:39).

“He was on the airstrip at Long Chieng, the secret CIA base. That’s the last time he saw his country... Loved his country. He’s buried in Southern California. America’s home for us now.” —Cha Vang (67:28–67:39)

• The Hmong arriving in the U.S. faced immense culture shock, language gaps, and judgment (76:06–78:07), but achieved remarkable upward mobility in two generations.

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6. Community, Clan Structure, and Shifting Social Support

• The Hmong clan system provided mutual aid and accountability—solving problems (including homelessness) internally. American legal, welfare, and regulatory systems have disrupted that traditional safety net (63:44–65:01).
• As American systems took over, the younger Hmong generation’s connection to clan and elders has frayed, leading to concerns about growing homelessness and loss of traditional support (63:53, 87:45–88:21).

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7. Political Identity and the Challenge of Integration

• Why Hmong lean left: Direct services from government/nonprofits, early re-settlement in urban democratic bastions, and lack of Republican outreach have tilted political identification leftward—even when cultural values (family, faith, self-reliance, patriotism) align more with conservatism (56:24–80:46).
• Barrier to Republican engagement: Superficial outreach and lack of sustained relationships; the need for respectful engagement with elders and veterans, not just asking for votes (54:51–57:48).

“Don’t use people, particularly people that were used by our government as a pawn… If you respect our elders, our history, that’s the bond that strengthens over time. And then show up." —Cha Vang (57:17)

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8. The Meaning of Freedom and the Danger of Dependency

• Vivid warning against passivity and long-term government dependence; stories from peers reinforce the risk of becoming trapped in "the system" (91:15–94:13).
  • “That’s the danger — when you get comfortable in a system like that.” (91:29)
• Observations on how government programs, despite their aid, can erode collective and family responsibility and increase dependence—mirroring issues for all Americans, not just immigrants (81:49–87:45).
• Cha Vang stresses the need for courage and self-reliance, echoing his father’s lessons: “For my father, there was only right and wrong, white and black… You live or you die.” (89:21–89:32)

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9. The Path Forward: Building Bridges, Political Hope, and American Unity

• Both speakers stress the importance of authentic relationships—forging genuine connections between native-born Americans and “emerging constituencies” is the only way to build a truly American community (59:17–60:33).
• The episode closes with an invitation for listeners to attend the 50th anniversary Hmong New Year celebration in St. Paul—a vivid example of cultural resilience and openness to all Americans.
• Calls for cross-community healing: “We eat Chinese food all the time. We need to invite them to come eat Hmong food.” —Cha Vang (96:48)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On being used by America:

  “To be an enemy of the United States can be dangerous. But to be a friend… can be deadly.”
  —Bill Colby, recalled by Cha Vang (41:11)

• On betrayal of allies:

  “My father felt betrayed...he’s only got 60,000 troops, dependent on the hand… that feeds you to survive.”
  —Cha Vang (46:06–47:14)

• On the switch in U.S. policy after Nixon's trip to China:

  “After he [Nixon] came back from that trip, supplies were not coming in… planes were breaking down...He cut a deal.”
  —Cha Vang (37:46–38:26)

• On the pain of leaving Laos:

  “He was on the airstrip of Long Chieng, the secret CIA base. That’s the last time he saw his country… Loved his country. He’s buried in Southern California. America’s home for us now.”
  —Cha Vang (67:28–67:39)

• On traditional clan-based support:

  “If you say no more programs for Hmong homelessness… you 18 clan leaders, you gotta go talk to your clans and figure it out… I guarantee you we’ll handle it.”
  —Cha Vang (87:45–88:21)

• On political outreach:

  “Show up to clan meetings, show up to festivals… Be sincere… If you respect our elders, you respect us.”
  —Cha Vang (54:51–57:48)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Origins & Migration: 11:00–17:44
• WWII/Colonial Era: 18:00–27:35
• Special Guerrilla Units, Secret War: 29:00–39:02
• Betrayal, Aftermath, and Moral Lessons: 40:40–47:14
• Leaving Laos, Refugee Experience: 67:08–67:39
• Clan System vs. Modern Welfare: 63:44–65:01; 81:49–88:21
• Community, Homelessness, and Culture Shock: 76:06–78:07
• Political Leanings & Voter Engagement: 54:51–80:46
• Call to Action, Hmong New Year Festival: 94:48–96:21

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Episode Tone & Takeaway

• The conversation is frank, empathetic, and sometimes raw, shaped by both painful memory and a commitment to hope and collaboration.
• Both speakers stress humility, the importance of oral history, and the practical path forward: meaningful relationships, honest reckoning with history, and the imperative for all Americans to come together across lines of culture and party.
• Listeners are invited (literally) into Hmong community events and into the larger work of rebuilding American civic life.

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Bottom Line:
This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in immigrant communities, U.S. foreign policy consequences, or how to build authentic political coalitions. Through one Hmong family's journey, it asks: What does it mean to be used for American aims—then left to survive? And how, after such stories, do we build a new story—together?

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Transcript

[Cha Vang]

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[Cha Vang]

Cross our hearts and hopes to die by these 50 countries differing so much in race and religion, in language and culture. It is a big idea. A new world order.

[David Penn]

Well, I know they're lying. They tricked me once, but they're not going to trick me twice. The time is now. Welcome back to the Professor Penn Podcast. David Penn, your host. Glad to be with you as always for this episode. Number 255. 256. 256. You know, it was time for me to flub that. Good morning, Tanner.

[Cha Vang]

How you doing?

[David Penn]

I'm doing great. Episode number 256 coming to you on November 18th, this Tuesday evening at 7:00pm Central Standard Time. Well, here we go. We're heading into the holiday period. There's a lot to be thankful for as we move into the holiday season. I have a lot to be thankful for. And I hope that all of us can find Thanksgiving. We're approaching Thanksgiving. It's time to get into that holiday Thanksgiving mode. And as we get into it, I'm going to just share with you it's been a great year here at Free People Radio. We've made a lot of progress politically. And when I say politically, I want to remind everyone, while we do try to be entertaining and we do want to build an audience, my primary goal is to build an army, an army of people that actually are going to respond to the threats our republic is facing and get involved in politics. And the reason I ask you to do that, and I get clearer about this the more time I spend in politics. There are good professional politicians, but not very many. Most professional politicians are for sale. They're going to attenuate their positions and their votes to whoever shows up to govern. We're a self governing people. So if we the people stay home, there's nobody that's really going to hold our elected representatives accountable. They will then be accountable to who does show up. And guess who that is. The oligarchs, the kleptocrats, the people that have the big money. The people that really don't care about you and me or our communities or our neighborhoods. Because they're living in another atmosphere. They're living at another altitude. They don't know the struggles that I have or my children have. They claim they do, but they don't vote it. But if we would only show up, if we would just start thinking about caucus in February of 2026 and whatever state you're listening to me in. There's a similar process. If you would just get off the couch and get in the game. And your presence, just your presence, let alone your participation, just you being a witness to politics will change the arc of history. So if you're living in a community, let's say in Kansas, you have a school board there, five people in your neighborhood, and just go sit at the school board meeting. I'm not telling you to be a radical. I'm not asking you to raise your hand, cause trouble. If you just watch these people, if they know there's witnesses, it will change how they govern. So we have to understand how important it is right now at this moment. There's nobody coming to rescue us. There's not going to be any cavalry coming around the corner. We're going to get smoked if we don't play. And here in Minnesota, and it's the same thing in any every state, many people who are conservative leaning do not vote. They have given up on politics or the Republican Party of their state. And in Minnesota and in every state, there are many what Representative Walter Hudson calls emerging constituencies. I heard that for the first time in a spaces call I was on with Walter called Minnesota Speaks, which I urge all of you to find. Minnesota Speaks, it's on Thursday night, 7pm we want to gather thousands of people there. Thousands. So it's my duty to bring some new people on Thursday. I'm going to find them. Everybody tried Minnesota Speaks. Walter was there last week. That's great. Emerging constituencies. And these emerging constituencies here in Minnesota and in your state, too, they don't look exactly like the silk stocking country club Republicans that still dominate our state party. And while these silk stocking country clubbers might actually show up to take a picture and they might say they're interested, actually they don't really get the job done because the people they're going to see, no, it's insincere. And I have in my studio today a guest, Cha Vang, whose father is world famous, whose brother, unfortunately just two months ago, passed, who was the inheritor of his father's mantle in the Hmong community. And we're going to hear from Cha very shortly. But I want to just say to those of you that are younger, Tanner, do you know about. Have you ever heard of the Hmong community? I have not. I'm very excited for this episode, proving my point. This is a young man in his mid-20s, very intelligent. He's part of the podcast. He might have a question or two. We like him to participate, but he has no idea about the Hmong community. And this is an emergency. Emerging constituency, conservative people, I think traditional people that really could vote for conservative candidates if our party would reach out and embrace and create a community with the Hmong community. And the same thing goes with the urban voters downtown Minneapolis. I was downtown St. Paul just this past two weeks ago, organizing on Arcade street on the rough east side. I grew up in St. Paul, so I'm. I'm used to it. And they told me that nobody had come from the Republican Party in years. In years. I said, hey, I'm here. I'M here because I care. And we're working with a lot of different emerging communities, constituencies. I work with the Somali community as much as I can. Why am I doing it? Because we cannot win in Minnesota without developing a constituency of what we would call the newcomers, people who are new to our culture. We can't just win outstate. We got to get into these communities, and we got to break bread, and we got to make things happen. So welcome. Cha Vang. I'm so glad you're here.

[Cha Vang]

Thank you for having me here, Dave. I'm very excited to have this discussion with you and a lot of good things to talk about, and you're spot on on everything you said on your preamble.

[David Penn]

Well, you're more than welcome to take issue when I go off the center of the road, but I. Because actually, I'm from an emergency community. Not that long ago, my family came here in the 20s and 30s of the last century, escaping murder and mayhem in their home country, which was the Ukraine. And every uncle and aunt that didn't get out, I know how they died. And they didn't die nice. They didn't die in their beds. So I do know something about this history, but I am so interested to learn it. And I want to go back to the way back, because here we got a very smart, educated young man that doesn't even know that. How many of your community live in the state of Minnesota right now?

[Cha Vang]

We're about 100,000 people.

[David Penn]

How can you miss 100,000 people? Young Tanner. Yeah. What's going on with that, Tanner?

[Cha Vang]

You don't get out often, do you?

[David Penn]

No, I guess I don't talk to many people, so. And then I think, if I'm not mistaken, isn't there about 300,000 totally in the United States? Is that about correct?

[Cha Vang]

That's a little low. We're about close to 400,000 now nationally.

[David Penn]

Okay, great.

[Cha Vang]

Pretty much. We call it the big three. We're pretty much centered. Probably 80% of the number is in California, Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

[David Penn]

Okay. So for the. Even the people that know of the community, I don't really think. Because it's so far downfield from what happened going all the way back to 1960. I want to go back. You can go back further if you want to. I personally am trained in anthropology. I have a deep interest in other cultures and other histories. So I'd like. You can start any place you want. We go back 2,000 years, I'm sure, but you pick a start point, people.

[Cha Vang]

Might think we're old. They talk like that.

[David Penn]

I'm very young at heart. But I would like you to pick a starting point until the audience the history of your people as you'd like to express it to us.

[Cha Vang]

Sure, sure. And I appreciate you giving me that leeway of picking a starting point. You know, people, they hear about the Vietnam War, and so they know that we're from Laos, but originally, the Hmong people are actually from China. And if you look at the worldwide population of all the Hmong people, we number about the estimates, and these aren't hard numbers. 13 to 15 million people. So where are all those people? Most of them are still in China. So originally we had a kingdom in China, and the story goes, and I think this is very accurate, is that we had a Hmong king. And the Chinese knew that the Hmong were very ferocious, very courageous, very tough. Their kingdom's very strong. So one New Year, they invited the Hmong king to come visit the Chinese. And he went and they wanted to break bread and said, hey, let's be friends, let's be friendly, forget about the past and bygones and whatever conflicts we had. So he was a trusting man. He went and it didn't turn out the way he thought it was, and they basically cut his head off, and that broke the Hmong kingdom, and that started the migration of the Hmong into Southeast Asia.

[David Penn]

And were the Hmong living in southern China?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, mostly Yunnan, Hunan, the southern portion. Okay, yeah. So if you look at the Hmong and you look at our facial structure, we're Chinese, but we're mostly associated closely with the Mongolians. So warriors, combatants, very strong.

[David Penn]

So you're saying that the lineage of the Clan of the People goes back to the Mongol invaders of China, which is a long time ago.

[Cha Vang]

That's a long time ago. Yep, exactly.

[David Penn]

So I can actually see it in your face, I'm sorry to say. I mean, I don't want to sound.

[Cha Vang]

Awful, but I hope I'm not scaring you.

[David Penn]

No, no. I've been. As I was telling you as we were walking in the studio, I've been to China over a hundred times, and very. For a American well versed in Chinese history and culture, so not afraid. I have been in some scrapes in China, I have to tell you. Remember one time I was there, we were in a government office in Hangzhou, and I was confronting a general who was doing things that I didn't like. I said some things, and a guy jumped up. He said, you can't talk to so. And so that way, I said, hey, you better sit down or I'm going to break your legs in front of this guy. And my lawyer was with me, said, we're never getting out of here alive. So we have had some scrapes, I'd say, but it. It is. It's. It's interesting. I didn't. I mean, this is. I didn't know that the Hmong people were originally living in China, had migrated. There was a migration. Migration to escape the Chinese, actually, Chinese hegemony.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. And if you look at our clothing, the artistic portion of it you've got, it's sort of like a storyboard. So after they killed the Hmong king and broke up that dynasty in that kingdom, they didn't want us to have our culture. So it basically divide and conquer. And they wanted to keep us divided forever. So we couldn't have our own Alphabet. We couldn't have our own language.

[David Penn]

When you say they, you're talking. They're the Chinese, the Mandarin Chinese at the time.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

So the Hmong women were very smart. They couldn't, you know, write their Alphabet, so they started doing storytelling in their tapestry, in the clothing. So that's. When you look at all the Hmong tapestry clothing, it tells a story. So that was how they retained the history of the Hmong from that era.

[David Penn]

You know, my mother. I was talking about my mother. My mother, who was very helpful to the original settlement here in Minnesota, which. What year did. I mean, we're going to digress, but what year did the community start to migrate into Minnesota?

[Cha Vang]

1975. That was when the fall of Laos.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

So they started trickling in.

[David Penn]

So in my house, my mother had a monk tapestry framed and put on the wall of our home. And it was a gift to her because of her involvement with that community. But. Okay, so the Hmong were in China.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

Migrated down into Laos.

[Cha Vang]

Right. Laos, Laos, Vietnam, and Thailand and a little bit in Burma.

[David Penn]

And I'm sure you live there peacefully for hundreds of years. No, probably not. It's. It's a rough. It's a rough neighborhood, isn't it?

[Cha Vang]

It has always been rough, especially for the Hmong.

[David Penn]

Okay, so the. Are the Hmong a people without a land, so to speak?

[Cha Vang]

Pretty much.

[David Penn]

So would you happen to be the Jewish people of Southeast Asia? In a way.

[Cha Vang]

In a way we can relate to that.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

And that when you and I were talking beforehand, so, you know, we share a common story in that aspect. Being persecuted, being chased, being murdered, killed and whatnot. So when we migrated down to Laos and Vietnam, all the fertile land was a lowland. So they pushed Hmong up into mountains, and that's why we've become mountain people.

[David Penn]

You know, as the Chinese call. And this is rude, but haven't been jungle people. Yep, right.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly.

[David Penn]

Now, is that a slur or is that a compliment when the Chinese people say that?

[Cha Vang]

They. It's a slur when they say it. But, you know, we. We take it in in a way that makes us proud, because, hey, we're the jungle people. You know, we're guerrilla fire. You know, we're strong.

[David Penn]

Yes.

[Cha Vang]

So it's how you. It's how you spin it. It's how you. You know, your perspective and how you look at it.

[David Penn]

Well, for those that are my age that have followed this, the Hmong are legendary warriors. Legendary. But before 1960, before Ho Chi Minh, before, you know, before the 40s, what was the status of the Hmong people? Let's say during the period of the Japanese, were the Hmong allied with the Japanese or fighting the Japanese?

[Cha Vang]

No, the Hmong were actually fighting the Japanese.

[David Penn]

Okay, and then what now? Okay, let. Tanner. We're back in World War II now. I'm trying to get this in nearby history. So what Chai said was. And I asked him, because I didn't know what the answer was to that. It was a. Was a risky question.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

And I said, okay, did you fight the Japanese? Well, he said, yes. What side were you on? Well, they were fighting the Japanese, which meant somebody was probably providing material and munitions for that fight. Correct.

[Cha Vang]

Correct.

[David Penn]

And who was the benefactor at that time?

[Cha Vang]

I think, you know, Laos has always been sort of a pawn in that region being, you know, landlocked and in between all those other countries of China to North Vietnam to the east and Cambodia south, and to the west is Thailand. So going back to, like, the Vietnam War, you talked about the domino theory. The domino. The main domino was Laos. So Laos fell, knocked over all the other countries, and that's how, you know, we got involved with the United States and all that.

[David Penn]

But going back to World War II, was the United States also providing the.

[Cha Vang]

The geopolitical powers in that region provide all, you know, the necessary means to put up a resistance. And they had always known that the Hmong. We made Laos. We made those mountaintops our home. We had no place to go. So all we knew is that the Japanese were invaders. So if somebody invades your house.

[David Penn]

Were the Japanese in Laos?

[Cha Vang]

The Japanese were in. Were starting to come that direction, but not a lot, because, you know, once again, Vietnam became A buffer for Laos.

[David Penn]

French. The French were still in Vietnam at that time?

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

And, and were the French. Did the Vietnamese attack the French in Vietnam during the Second World War?

[Cha Vang]

Not yet. That was, that was a little bit before Ho Chi Minh time.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

All right, so. But your. The people were deployed and actually fought the Japanese. So they were allied with the United States.

[Cha Vang]

They were allied with the. Not, not directly with United States, but aligned with the United States objectives, which.

[David Penn]

Was to feed the Japanese.

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[David Penn]

So we fast forward after the war. What happens after World War II in the region to your people?

[Cha Vang]

Well, for my father, because he grew up in the mountains and Laos was ran by the French and much like.

[David Penn]

Indochina, it was called French Indochina.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, that's why it's called French Indochina. So one of the French officers that was in that area, he taught, he took a liking to my father because he saw this little young kid, they just called him Vangpao. Vangpao. They go by last name first. Powell's his first name, but Chinese. Yeah. So they just call him Vangpao. Vangpao. So my father used to run errands for the local village chiefs and all. And he was just sitting in on, you know, all their weekly discussions of village issues. Not. And they need chickens. He'd go get the chicken. They needed more whiskey. He'd go find whiskey. So that's how he built his reputation up, doing minor errands. And then the French officers noticed that, that this little guy can get things done. And they started asking him to do this, do that, you know, run errands for them, find, you know, information for them. And that's how he started his career. And that's how he got involved with the French military. And then after the French were defeated, then that's how he got engaged with the United States.

[David Penn]

And so when the French withdrew after Dien Bien Phu.

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

They lost their colonial enterprise. It was a colony.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. Well, let me interrupt you there, because you talk about Dien Bien Phuket, and people probably don't know this story. And this is. This is from my dad's mouth. So this firsthand. There was a lot of politics involved with Din Bin Phu at that time. My dad actually was leading, I think, a thousand troops to go reinforce Dien Bien Phu because the Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, had Dien Bin Phu and the French forces pinned down in that valley of Dien Bien Phuket. So they had their big guns on top the mountain ridges around that Dien Bien Phu valley.

[David Penn]

For those that don't know, Dien Bien Phu was the seminal battle that ended up in the defeat of the French in French Indochina. And what I'm gleaning from your conversation with me is that because the North Vietnamese were allied with the Chinese, the Hmong with memories threw in with the French and were fighting the Vietnamese. Chinese aligned Marxist alliance. Do I understand that correctly?

[Cha Vang]

I understand it correctly.

[David Penn]

Okay, great.

[Cha Vang]

But that was my dad's first taste of the geopolitics of military and war. Because he had a thousand men and he would. And he had to march a whole week to get to Dien Bien Phu from where he was. And he asked for a helicopter to drop them closer so he could get there and take out, you know, the big guns on top they denied him the helicopters.

[David Penn]

When you say they.

[Cha Vang]

The French.

[David Penn]

The French did, yeah.

[Cha Vang]

Okay, The French and probably other people, which, without saying names, you know, the big superpowers. Okay, so. So it was a game. But he didn't understand at the time because he could. He's a military guy. If I need you want me to go there and save the French Indian, Bien Fu. Fly me closer so, you know I.

[David Penn]

Can cut the job done.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. Get the job done for you. They wouldn't do that. They had, they had.

[David Penn]

Why wouldn't they do it? I mean, you're making me ask a question. I know you're being careful because of your role. We'll talk about your role in the community and I understand, but I'm just asking from historical perspective. I mean, the French did want to win, didn't they?

[Cha Vang]

Well, that's up in question because according to my father, if they really wanted to win, how come they didn't fly him there?

[David Penn]

You know, I'm trying to get to the root of this thing because I've studied D and B and foo, and that was the end of the French colonial empire. And that was when colonial empires were being deconstructed all over the world. This is post World War II. So what I'm hearing you say, kind of in your own way, maybe they didn't want to win. Is. Is that what I'm supposed to take from this?

[Cha Vang]

It's like the. Working with the CIA is, is difficult because of, you know, the CIA. So like my dad was saying, the military commanders on the field want to win because that's what they're trained for. Somebody shooting at you, you're going to shoot back. They want to kill you. Kill them before you get killed yourself. So in the military sense, it's black and white. But when you start talking about politics and geopolitics and you know, you got not just two parties politically opposing each other, but you got other players in that arena, then it gets real messy, the water gets real muddy, and you don't know where that mud's coming from.

[David Penn]

The people become pawns in a game they don't understand.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly.

[David Penn]

Okay, because.

[Cha Vang]

And I know we're jumping around, but.

[David Penn]

Hey, my audience is used to it. Don't worry about it.

[Cha Vang]

And I'll tell you what my father told me. My father told me it was a no brainer to be allies with the United States. Number one, we're all for freedom. We didn't want to be taken over by communism. So that was the first priority. Number two, the United States never lost a war before that. So the Vietnamese were a little small country. So if you got the big gorilla behind you, you know, this war shouldn't last that long. If it was, if it truly just a military.

[David Penn]

Oh, the water is going to get even muddier now, isn't it?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, so I'm just, I'm just sharing with you in the audience my father's mindset and how he was thinking through this. He knew he was going to fight for freedom. He knew that all the right ideals were with the Americans. That was a no brainer. So but to supplement that decision is that, hey, the United States never lost a war. If they want, they could take out Hanoi in one day, the war would be over. But you know, he didn't factor in all the geopolitics and all that. That was. Yeah, the muddy water.

[David Penn]

Mud in the water.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

Which in a sense just cut into the chase a little bit. The Hmong people became a pawn in that muddy game, didn't they?

[Cha Vang]

They did. And my father sort of sensed that and knew that. But when you're in the game and you got no way out and you're on the chessboard, you got to play well.

[David Penn]

And then we didn't really say this explicitly. Your father was actually the military commander of the Hmong. Was it called an army guerrilla?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, yeah, they called it this sgu.

[David Penn]

The Special Guerrilla Units and Funded by the CIA.

[Cha Vang]

Funded by the CIA. Paid through the US Air Force.

[David Penn]

Air America.

[Cha Vang]

Air America, therefore. Yeah.

[David Penn]

For those of you that like to do a little bit of historical research, you go look up Air America and you're going to find out that things are not always as they seem to be, but going along with this. So the Hmong found themselves caught in a game they didn't understand. All the players they couldn't see because the water was muddy.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

But they were fighting an implacable foe and they hated each other. I think there was true hatred going on here. I mean, this was serious combat, wasn't it?

[Cha Vang]

It was.

[David Penn]

And a very significant portion of that guerrilla army gave their lives in that war.

[Cha Vang]

We lost about 35,000 people. That was about 10% of our total population in Laos. So if you extrapolate that to Americans, you'd talk millions of soldiers lost if you lost 10% of your population.

[David Penn]

And the Hmong acquitted themselves fantastically on the field of battle, as I remember.

[Cha Vang]

Absolutely, absolutely. The Hmong kept 70,000 of the top North Vietnamese troops inside Laos from 1960 to 1975 in a virtual Standstill and fighting. It was back and forth. But.

[David Penn]

But by memory, you know, I was alive during this time. Okay? I mean, I was a witness to this. Did President Nixon secretly bomb Laos? Wasn't there some. Was it Cambodia or Laos? I can't remember. But I think our U.S. government, because, you know, it had a limited in those days. In those days, Tanner, there was a little bit more rule of law, like when there was a war. It had an objective, and, you know, there was some limits, some guardrails. Right. And then I remember Nixon secretly bombed. Was it Cambodia or was it Laos? I'm it.

[Cha Vang]

It was Cambodia. Okay. Laos. Laos. They publicly bombed Laos. Okay. Although they weren't supposed to be on that. And the reason why they call it the secret war because of, you know, all the.

[David Penn]

This war. This war that your people are involved in, it's called historically, the secret war, the secret war of which your father was the head of the guerrilla units that were funded by the US Government through the CIA, through its Air America subsidiary.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

Is that correct?

[Cha Vang]

That's correct. And you know what they called Laos? They called it the Land of Oz.

[David Penn]

The Land of Oz.

[Cha Vang]

The Land of Oz. Because so many weird things happened there, even though the world knew about it. For instance, the communist forces and the Free Lao forces all lived in the capital. In the morning, they went shopping at the open market. 10 o', clock, they started shooting at each other. That's how weird that conflict was.

[David Penn]

Were the communities intermarried, or were they separated?

[Cha Vang]

They were intermarried because you got to understand Laos was a monarchy. And the crux of the conflict was there was a pro Western prince, and then there was a communist prince called the Red Prince. And that's what started the whole thing Inside Laos.

[David Penn]

There was a white prince and a red prince? More or less, yeah. Yeah.

[Cha Vang]

More or less. Yep. White and red.

[David Penn]

And they were brothers.

[Cha Vang]

They're related.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

And so they had their own battle going on for control of the Laotian government.

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

And then the Hmong were there. And how did the Hmong relate to the Laotian government?

[Cha Vang]

Well, the Hmong didn't really relate directly to Laotian government. The Hmong had always been a fierce fighting force up north, but they were mostly different bands. But my father was the glue that brought all the Clans. We have 18 different clans. Okay. So my father was the glue that brought all the clans together to be an armed force. And the French knew that. And then when the French were driven out, the United States came in, and the United States asked the French for Advice, who can we work with if we want to do something inside Laos? And they point at my father, Mang Powell.

[David Penn]

And so when was your father's first trip to the United States?

[Cha Vang]

He, he met the first CIA operative, Bill, there in early 60s and I think it was toward the middle 60 that he, or either 65 or 67 that he made his first trip. Okay, Yep. So he's met with, you know, Nixon, he's met with Johnson. And back then there was only two or three real generals in Southeast Asia. And he, he was the one in Vietnam. It was not Ho Chi Minh, it was General Job. And then my, and my father in law. And in Cambodia, I forget the Cambodian general, but those were the main actors militarily.

[David Penn]

So the United States, do we say they lost that war? I mean, what do you say about, I mean as a, as a, as a family member, clan leader whose people had to leave, did the United States lose that war?

[Cha Vang]

This is the way my father told him, for the people that are looking from the outside and that don't understand, you know, military warfare or politics, the United States lost the war because they left. But for the people that really understand how the world works, whether it's through politics or militarily, the United States decided to lose the short game for long term gains. Because like my father said, if the United States took Vietnam, they could do it in a day or a week, let's say a week. Bomb the hell out of Hanoi and you know, the North Vietnamese would give up. But if the United States took out Hanoi, kicked out communism, where would the new line of communism be? It would be the southern Chinese border. And it's not the Laotian in the, in the pro democracy Vietnamese forces that are going to protect that border. The United States would have to be there to protect it. So what, we're just like Korea?

[David Penn]

What you're saying, what this is evoking in me is, which is a little strange with this Ukraine war, I mean, but what you're saying is that there's been proxy wars fought Since World War II, avoiding the real conflict.

[Cha Vang]

Correct.

[David Penn]

And then the real players, the ones that make the water murky, pour resources in, demand tribute, operate things with strings, and these wars go on with no solution, no end. 35,000 people died in your community. And it sounds to me, and you can correct, maybe you don't want to say it, but it sounds to me very like a script. I mean, I've never really connected it in my head because this was very close to the end of World War II. So my generation of Americans, we viewed America as what? Whatever we did, top notch, right? Whatever we did, we were the good and the true. We used to say it was. You ever heard mom, apple pie and Chevrolet? No.

[Cha Vang]

Okay. See, he's really young.

[David Penn]

He's really young.

[Cha Vang]

Heather, you don't get out. You better get out more.

[David Penn]

No, mom, apple pie and Chevrolet. We grow up really, the profound sense of self righteousness. But I see in this conflict now, the way you're describing it, it's very similar to what's happened in the Middle east, and it's very similar to what's happening in the Ukraine, where a lot of people get killed and a lot of money gets made and there's all kinds of things that are going on, moving the puzzle pieces around, which nobody really understands.

[Cha Vang]

David. It's the same scenario, but different years in different generations. And I'll give you another piece, too, so you can see how this whole thing worked out. In 1972, Richard Nixon secretly went to China. Went to China secretly, I remember. Yep.

[David Penn]

That was Mao Dong Shao Ping. Yep.

[Cha Vang]

And then after he came back from that trip, supplies were not coming in. My father would call in bombing raids. All sudden, planes were breaking down. Weather was bad. It wasn't the same fight before. And my father could sense that things are changing. After they cut a deal, they cut a deal. And so hindsight is 20 20. So after we lost the war, we figured out he cut a deal, whatever that deal was, with the Chinese to pull them away from the Soviet Union. Conquer and divide. We were just small ponds in that game.

[David Penn]

And then your relatives are sitting there at war, and all of a sudden the previous support is withdrawn. Pawns in the game.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

Okay, what happens next? What happens next is Henry Krisinger is in Paris. I think it was Lee Ducteau. They were negotiating a. And this peace talk took years. I mean, they kept meeting and meeting and meeting. Because I think what was happening is what they were really doing is working out the terms with the Chinese.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly.

[David Penn]

And so we were all focused in Paris. That was the diversion. It was the behind the scenes thing that was going on.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly.

[David Penn]

And your people are bleeding out.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

Being killed in mass numbers in the.

[Cha Vang]

In the South Vietnamese also.

[David Penn]

And the war ends.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

Ceasefire. Right.

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

Okay, now you can tell, because Tanner doesn't know this history, how many Vietnamese people are living in Minnesota.

[Cha Vang]

In Minnesota, I think the Vietnamese are around 40 to 50,000.

[David Penn]

So the monk community is much larger.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. Up here.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

But nationwide, the Vietnamese are a couple million.

[David Penn]

So these Two communities, the South Vietnamese and the Hmong community, which had been allied with the United States. No longer important in the game. Chips to be dealt out. There's a new game. Okay, we're moving on from Southeast Asia. What happens to these communities?

[Cha Vang]

Let me just comment on what you were talking about. Chips that have no more value. And this was coming directly from the XCIA director, Bill Colby. He was a personal friend of my dad.

[David Penn]

Bill Colby, he disappeared in Montana, didn't he?

[Cha Vang]

He died supposedly kayaking.

[David Penn]

Yeah, supposedly. Yeah, well, disappeared.

[Cha Vang]

Well, we weren't there, so we don't know.

[David Penn]

Yeah, we. Nobody knows. Yeah, so he was very involved in all kinds of.

[Cha Vang]

Especially with. Yep. It's especially, you know, in Laos. And he had a personal relationship with my father.

[David Penn]

Wow.

[Cha Vang]

He was a very good man. My dad liked him a lot. But he visited us in Orange county, and this was probably in the 80s. And I still remember him telling me this. And at time, you know, I had to think about a couple times, he said, hey, John, just remember one thing. If you don't remember anything about, you know, the US Politics, to be an enemy of the United States can be dangerous. But to be a friend of the United States can be deadly. I had to think about that a couple of times. Like, what the heck? If you're friends with the United States, how can it be deadly? And if you're an enemy, how can it be dangerous?

[David Penn]

I'm going to respond to that. Just give me a sidebar. This is because the people that run the country, because we, the citizens, are not involved. It's more dangerous. It's deadly. To be a friend of the United. Which means we use people. Exactly. That's what it means.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly. That's what it means.

[David Penn]

And I, as an American citizen, want to end that. Now, I recognize I'm just one guy in front of a mic here. What's the date? November 18th. Tanner.

[Cha Vang]

Yes, sir.

[David Penn]

We're just talking to American citizens. But, you know, if millions of us understood that there are people that run this government that will use millions of people like pawns and sacrifice their communities, you know, that's on all of us here. I mean, we don't understand that in America that the blood is on everybody's hands. And to change that requires a change of consciousness amongst the people. I was just looking in the Federal Register today. Federal Register. Every day, the US Government prints everything that's not secret that it did yesterday. And they printed up the arms sales over the last month because, you know, the government was closed down. So the Federal Register. Oh my. I'm going to play this a week from Tuesday when I get my next solo podcast. They sold so many arms around the world. I mean, I'm talking about billions and billions and billions. That's the backbone of our economy, of course. But what we don't understand is they're going to kill people with those weapons. Okay, a righteous war. I'm okay with the warrior. A righteous war. Let's get it done. Righteous means principle. Sometimes you got to fight, right?

[Cha Vang]

You're absolutely right.

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[David Penn]

But to fight and be used. Tell me how it feels and tell me what happened. What happened after that war? What was the result when the using was over and they cut you all loose and you're on your own.

[Cha Vang]

I'll tell you this. And I came over here in 69. My father was a visionary and he said, you know, we're going to win this thing. Because he believed the United States was going to, you know, at the end, win out militarily. So he sent a couple of us over to be educated in 69 in preparation of, hey, after we win it, we need people to come back that has some intelligence and education.

[David Penn]

And rebuild.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, yeah, and rebuild. So that was his being the visionary he was playing. I had. And even during the war, he was building hospital, teaching people how to farm, building roads to connect all the villages for communication, setting up radio stations to communicate. So he was building the infrastructure, but he didn't see the end game that was being played on.

[David Penn]

Well, they were telling him something completely different. Yeah, they lied to him.

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

I mean, basically, I'm sorry, I can say things. I'm not asking you to say it.

[Cha Vang]

No, no.

[David Penn]

But when I hear a story like this, it actually not easy to hear. But.

[Cha Vang]

No, no, no, but. So I give you more information laying the groundwork for what I'm going to say. My father felt betrayed, number one. Not betrayed by the people that he fought side by side with the soldiers because those guys wanted to win. And they didn't know what the politicians and guys way up there were doing either. They were just following orders. But then when things turned south and bullets weren't coming, food was running out and medical supplies were being lost or whatever, and he could see the writing on the wall, so he felt betrayed. But like my dad said, what can you do? He's only one guy. He's only got 60,000 troops, dependent on the hand, for lack of better word, that feeds you to survive. So you just got to do what you can and see what the opportunities are to get out of this thing the best you can.

[David Penn]

And what year was this?

[Cha Vang]

Well, the war ended in. In 75. Okay. So starting from probably, my dad said starting from probably, you know, late 73, things were starting to.

[David Penn]

It was. The handwriting was on the wall, so to speak.

[Cha Vang]

So it's starting to drag out. So my dad didn't tell anybody that, but he was preparing for that himself without talking to his CIA advisors. I'm going to do what's best for my people. I'm not going to tell you guys because I don't know if I can trust you guys anymore.

[David Penn]

I can't trust you.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I'll shake my head and, you know, for whatever you say to Me, whatever me do. But I'm planning my own stuff to help my people. So he felt betrayed, and then he felt gravely sad because it's sad that, you know, so many people died, plan didn't work out the way it was, and it was all political and, and he knew a long time ago that there was too much politics involved because he, he was talking to a lot of the Air Force guys that were flying sorties into Hanoi, and they were telling him that, hey, General, our orders are this. We can fly in there full of ordinances, missiles and all that and bombs. We can only hit targets that we're allowed to hit. And if we're not fired on first, we can't return fire. So my dad was thinking, what the hell kind of combat mission is that if you can't fire on the enemy? No, those are the rules.

[David Penn]

That's what they call rules of engagement.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. So my, you know, when my father starting to hear all this other BS, like he said, then he knew that there's something else going on. But like we were talking about, he was only upon. And he was on the chessboard already. There's no getting off the chessboard unless you get eliminated.

[David Penn]

Now, there is a way out.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, there is a way out, but that wasn't a good way either. And it wouldn't help the people. Yeah, I think there was like at least four or five assassination attempts for my father because he was the field general. You take out the field general, there's not much left of the army. Yeah. In fact, one time he and his soldiers were in a battle and they wiped out most of the North Vietnamese troops there. And he was climbing back up, reaching. He liked to sit in the co pilot seat in the helicopter. So he always liked to fly up front. So he was reaching up to pull himself up. And one Vietnamese soldier wasn't dead and he shot my father. The bullet went through his armpit, out near his throat. Almost died. They thought he was going to die. They couldn't fix him in Thailand, so they flew him to the military hospital in Honolulu.

[David Penn]

Wow.

[Cha Vang]

And so I talk about field general in importance. The Vietnamese didn't know that my father was injured. So the United States told the Vietnamese, hey, let's calm down, let's talk a little bit, let's figure this thing out. They didn't know my father was injured, but the US didn't have a field general, so they had to, you know, play political games and try to draw the Vietnamese back, have some negotiations, give my father time to get healed and at least know that he was going to survive.

[David Penn]

Did he heal up?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, he healed up.

[David Penn]

And did he have any post healing problems?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, I was going to tell you that the only they had two soldiers, one was black and one was Caucasian that was watching him. You can imagine. You know, the. The field general for the military operation allows being in hospital, you know, high security, so they couldn't find someone that had blood that could donate to my father. But the black Marine there had O positive blood, so he donated his blood to my father. After my father got that blood transfusion, he couldn't eat red pepper anymore. He had an allergy to it and he started growing hair.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. So that was the funny side effect, but. So that was the only ailment that.

[David Penn]

Remained other than not having hot peppers anymore. He was okay.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. Okay. And he couldn't eat the heart.

[David Penn]

People. People don't understand how much people in this region like hot food.

[Cha Vang]

Oh. You know, most people say I die without, you know, if I couldn't eat spice.

[David Penn]

Yes, I get it. I've been, I have to say myself, I'm a aficionado of Southeast Asian hot and spicy food. I like it. I do like it.

[Cha Vang]

You will fit in perfectly with the.

[David Penn]

Hmong that maybe I can have a meal with you.

[Cha Vang]

We will do that.

[David Penn]

I would love to do. I started to invite myself, but I'm having such a good time here in this history. It's an oral history. And I want to say to everybody, you know, we got all these PhDs writing books. Then they write books and we go, okay, these PhDs, well, they're. They're neutral. They're scholars. You know what they're not? They get a perspective. And then a lot of time their perspective comes from their teacher and the teacher before them. And we can go so far down range without knowing what really. This is the actual oral history of the son of the man who ran the deal. So, I mean, I think oral histories are cool, which is part of your tradition, storytelling. Right.

[Cha Vang]

Everything for us is pretty much oral until we got here. Now we're starting to write books and whatnot.

[David Penn]

But you still have the gift to tell an oral story.

[Cha Vang]

I like it, but you're right on. And that's something that the AVA and we're working on doing in the future also is not so much telling the story, the war story, because that's been publicized and people sort of know that public information.

[David Penn]

He doesn't. Yeah, well, we got a whole cohort of young people don't even know about your People, we're going to change that today. Please continue.

[Cha Vang]

But what we want to do is, and like you said, you've got all these scholars out there that supposedly did their research and know everything. But I can tell you one thing they don't know. They don't know what my father was thinking throughout the whole thing and what he saw through his eyes. And these are firsthand accounts. And that's something that I've been blessed to not only hear, but being able to document. Because my father has 18 sons, I'm probably the closest one to him. Most people just said I'm his shadow. I used to just follow him around everywhere. So he taught me. He trained me.

[David Penn]

When you say he trained you, he.

[Cha Vang]

Trained me to be who I am so that in the future, if he's not around, at least some of the sons can carry forward his vision, his mission for the people. Trained in a sense of understand Hmong politics, clan politics. Understand, like you were talking about, we're very oral. Hmong politics and Hmong discussion groups can go on for days. And it's all centered around, like a nice table like this, lots of food and lots of alcohol. And my father used to sit through these things, and he'll sit through 24 hours a day. That's why, you know, a lot of the traditional, younger Hmong, more modernized Hmong don't understand Hmong politics. Takes a lot of time. It's not a 9 to 5 job. And you don't just come there with a policy book and say, this is the way it is.

[David Penn]

It's based on relationship.

[Cha Vang]

Yes, based on relationship.

[David Penn]

But you know what? When I preach to my and I do preach, this is kind of a pulpit for me. I tell people if they want to get in politics, start by meeting your neighbors.

[Cha Vang]

Absolutely.

[David Penn]

Start by knocking on the next door. And you don't have to pick some super polarizing issue. It could just be, hey, you want to come over and have barbecue? And you have to make. What you're saying is you have to drink with people and make friends with people and build relationships with people.

[Cha Vang]

David, you're right on there. In your preamble, you were talking about how can the more conservative political party like the Republicans reach out and embrace the Hmong people? You hit right on. It's all about relationship. Don't give me a policy paper.

[David Penn]

Don't use people, particularly people that were used by our government as a pawn. Going to be very sensitive to people showing up and just saying, hey, can I get your vote? I mean, that's Kind of insulting in a way, isn't it?

[Cha Vang]

It is. And we see through that because both parties do it. So it's not just one party or the other party, but both parties do it. But it comes down to what you said. Relationship. I want to see you there. Not when you need my vote or you need my money for your campaign, but I want to see you there when I'm sick or my friend's sick, or when we have someone important dies or we have a big event. Even if you come for five minutes and shake hands and kiss a few babies, I see you. But be sincere about it and really care about me. If you want to make a decision, don't bring me to sit at your table as a token. So you see a round face, brown face, or colored face, but have me, let me have a say if you.

[David Penn]

Want to sit at the table.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, yeah. I want to see at the table, not just to sit. Let me give you my input. Let me give you some of my decisions, too, and let me be part of that decision process.

[David Penn]

Just to digress for a second, how is that going with the current leadership of the Republican Party in Minnesota?

[Cha Vang]

You want all honesty?

[David Penn]

Please.

[Cha Vang]

Not good.

[David Penn]

Not good.

[Cha Vang]

And I'm not saying anything bad about the Republican leadership. They're all good people. I know some of them, they're good, fine people. But I can tell you why, and even we've talked about this, too, why a lot of the Hmong in the Twin Cities are sort of leaning left because the left has better outreach. They do. They're more mobilized at the local. A local level. They're in their neighborhoods. They show up. I'm not saying they're sincere all the time, but they show up.

[David Penn]

We gotta start somewhere.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. So the Republicans don't have to, you know, recreate something new. The Republicans have a huge advantage. They gotta understand where we came from. We're patriots. We're all about loyalty. We're all about sacrifice. Family, faith, you know, small business, strong.

[David Penn]

Military, economic, economic freedom.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. So all the Republicans have to do is, you know, reach out to us, but be very sincere. And first of all, the easiest thing they can do, and this is their advantage, pay tribute and respect the among elders and veterans that paid the price for all of us younger guys. If you respect our elders, you respect us, you respect our history. That's the bond that you know that will strengthen over time. And then show up.

[David Penn]

You know, I just want to say about my American culture, I'm born Jewish. In Judaism, the elders run the deal, right? Okay. It's traditional culture. We have a youth culture. We have a lack of respect for age. But the traditional cultures, age has its own weight. And I'm just going to tell you myself personally, just so you. Because we don't know each other. I represent what I would call the New Republicans. I'm not tied to the mistakes of the past. In fact, I'm critical of it. And I have you here. I've invited you here and thank Ava. Can I use your last name? No. Ava is someone that I know, and we talked and she said it'd be great if you'd come on. And I jumped at the opportunity because I want so much to create a community. And I don't mean just a community of Republicans. I mean a community of American citizens that find things in common because both parties are corrupt. I mean, we're just. The corruption's obvious right now. Right? So we see it. So, you know, you can't look at one group. And I. And I watch this in the news. Oh, they're going to throw bricks over at the Democrats. Hey, you know what, Republicans, you were in that state House when all this corruption got set up. Where were the sheepdogs? Guarding the sheep.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

You know, so both parties have got their spear dipped in the blood of this corruption. Now, there's good people in both parties, and we need them to step up. We got to support them. But what supports them is when the citizens come together and tear down the walls that exist. They. They still exist for the Hmong community here in Minnesota. Okay, so Eva's here, and she's Saying Frederick Douglass project.org is dedicated. FDproject.org to tearing down the walls. So what Ava is saying from the. She's in the cheap seats. We've got an audience today. She's saying that this Frederick Douglass Project is about supporting and growing relationships with these emerging constituencies. Do I get it? Underserved communities. And so what we're trying. What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to make a relationship with you. I mean, I hope you can feel.

[Cha Vang]

No, I can feel it.

[David Penn]

That. I mean, I'm not in here.

[Cha Vang]

That's why I'm at ease talking to you.

[David Penn]

Because you can feel it.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. And. And this is not an interview. I don't sense it as an interview or anything like that. It's just two friends having a good discussion.

[David Penn]

Trying to become friends. Because.

[Cha Vang]

Be very open.

[David Penn]

Open. Because what I'm seeking is new constituencies because I want to have a state that protects freedom and faith. And my well being. I want to have a politics in the state where we're focused on community well being. You're an elder in your community. What are you most concerned about? That your people are. Well, that's a big part of it, right?

[Cha Vang]

Exactly. And I want to go back to something you were talking about, like with the Jewish community. We're not so much different than Jewish community. If you really dig down deep into the Hmong culture and Hmong society right now, even with the new generation, we still have an internal structure that most people don't see unless they come and really stay with it. The elders still play a lot, a big role. I know the ones that get publicity and get funding and all that for whatever nonprofits are programmed are the more younger, more articulate ones, like myself and others. But the ones that push the buttons that solve the problems are the elders. And I was talking to another gentleman, American gentleman, the other day, and we were talking about homelessness. Hmong didn't have homelessness for a long time. We do now. I think there's probably maybe 150 homeless Hmong in Twin Cities. Wow. Yep. So it's. It's quite alarming for me because we never had it. And I think the reason why we have it because we, the younger generation, are being put into different roles of responsibility in the broader society. For instance, if you have a psychologist degree, he sits on this board or this committee that's supposed to oversee all this funding to take care of all the social issues. So he has not only the authority given by policy or the laws and rules, but he also has the funding. But the real people that can solve homelessness are the elders, because we had a collective responsibility through clans. If a Vang got sick or a Vang committed a crime, we don't go to the authorities. We ask, who is that guy related to in the Vang. We bring in that family or that cluster of family, talk to them and say, hey, how do we address this? Because he's a Vang, I'm a vang, we're going to take care of it. Same thing with homelessness before, if someone didn't have a place to stay and see the Vang related to me, I've got a basement. I've got 10 couches down there. I've got a bathroom down there. Come on in. Whatever I eat, you eat with me, okay? I'll help you get back on your feet. But we don't have that anymore because now we. Because of the way the system is in society. If I Take that person in, something happens, that person, I'm legally liable. Now, I don't want to take on that responsibility. If he says, hey, you know, I assaulted him, I could go to jail. So I don't want to take that risk either. So.

[David Penn]

So being involved in American life and the American system is changing, altering the nature of traditional culture.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly. Because I tell you what, if the elders had more authority and they had a comfort that, hey, you know, there's not going to be all these regulations that can lock us up. If this guy does something in my house and I get blamed for it. I'll tell you what, if there's a Vang, we'll take him in. Yeah. And I'll find out who he's really related to and we'll work with those families. Because we have the Vang Council. I think we have, like, we're the largest clan here. I think we have like 42 district leaders in just the Vang. And I think we're, we're like 15, 20,000 people.

[David Penn]

So you have your own. We have our own structure. You have your own structure. Yeah, it's an organizational structure. Yeah.

[Cha Vang]

And in the past, the Klan system has been our strength. When we first got here, we didn't have credit, we didn't have collateral. We wanted to start a small, let's say small grocery store so the banks would all come together and say, hey, child's got a great idea. He needs $50,000. They all pitch in, 500,000, whatever. I get my 50,000. It all came from the clan.

[David Penn]

Well, let's talk about coming here. I really want to get into the story just of what happened at the end of the war and then the migration and what happened to the people that got left behind. I think that the American citizens, Let me just say as a predicate, there's a lot of really open hearted people in this country, you know.

[Cha Vang]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[David Penn]

We got some people and in the Republican Party that are not yet so open hearted for whatever reason. Some of them have their own reasons. There's even legitimate reasons from their perspective. But in the bigger picture, you're an American citizen, correct?

[Cha Vang]

I am.

[David Penn]

And the Hmong people that are here are mostly American citizens?

[Cha Vang]

Mostly.

[David Penn]

They are, mostly. How did that happen? What happened after the war?

[Cha Vang]

Well, like we were talking about, you know, we were allies with the United States during the secret war. When the United States left, we obviously had to leave because the communists would have wiped us out because of our allegiance to the United States.

[David Penn]

So these are the Laotian Communists or The Vietnamese Communists.

[Cha Vang]

The Vietnamese and the Laotian together. Yeah.

[David Penn]

Because Laos went communist after the war.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. And they still are communists. One party communist political system over there. So we had no choice. Especially those that were very closely aligned in my father's leadership structure. Yeah, he had them flew out of the country too, to Thailand.

[David Penn]

So he had, he had. Did he have his own air force or did. Was he.

[Cha Vang]

No, it's in the United States.

[David Penn]

So they, the United States.

[Cha Vang]

Even though the United States had a moral obligation, they knew it wasn't going to look good, so they, they had to do it.

[David Penn]

Yeah. Well, did they have a moral obligation or they did or they did it because it wasn't going to look good.

[Cha Vang]

I think. More. More. It wasn't going to look good.

[David Penn]

But is this after the genocide in Cambodia or before?

[Cha Vang]

It was a little bit before.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. Because the genocide really happened after the United States pulled out. So we didn't come here as economic refugees. We didn't want to leave. If you want me to be frank, if we had a choice, nobody was going to kill us. We'd stay or my father would stay.

[David Penn]

Because you liked it.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. That was our home. Yeah. My father told me the story when he left and breaks me down a little bit because he was on the airstrip of Long Chang, the secret CIA base. So that's the last time he saw his country.

[David Penn]

He told you the story. Did he tell to you more than once?

[Cha Vang]

All the time.

[David Penn]

Loved his country.

[Cha Vang]

He'd never seen it since he left. Yep. He's buried in Southern California. America's home for us now. But we didn't come here as economic migrants looking for economic opportunity. We came here because we had to. And we came here because we were American allies.

[David Penn]

Were there people in your clan that left behind and were killed? Yeah, but how many people were. Could you know the number of people that were left behind and were killed by the communists?

[Cha Vang]

Nobody has an exact count, but it's more than one.

[David Penn]

It's more than one.

[Cha Vang]

Oh, it's many thousands.

[David Penn]

Okay, so listen now. I want everybody to listen. This now this is a man. Family fought. Forget about all the murky water. Let's just talk about the punchline at the end. The communists won, right? They killed everybody that was involved. You all are fighting communists. Do you understand what's going on here in this country? Who the. I can ask you what happens if the communists get control of the United States of America? What's going to happen?

[Cha Vang]

I'll tell you what. All the freedom fighters and freedom loving People, you better leave. Or it's like Cambodia. The cleansing in Cambodia was because they wanted to clean out.

[David Penn]

So do you know about the killing fields of Cambodia, young man?

[Cha Vang]

I've heard it.

[David Penn]

I don't know any of, like, the actual. Well, this is all in one area that, in fact, one could say all these country borders are a little bit arbitrary. Yeah, it's all one region.

[Cha Vang]

It's all one region. That's why it's called Indochina.

[David Penn]

And the people in Cambodia that were. Go ahead.

[Cha Vang]

So basically, it's the same model, the communist one. They wanted to wipe out all the intellectual people that were in opposition to them because they didn't want that ideology.

[David Penn]

And how many people died?

[Cha Vang]

Millions.

[David Penn]

Millions of people.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, millions.

[David Penn]

So when people and I just. You don't. We don't know each other well. And if you start listening. Ava, did you listen to my podcast that I sent you? Okay. So, you know, I'm a little strident. I'm a little strident. A little bit. Little bit. Ava says I'm passionate. Why am I passionate? Well, let me tell you. My grandfather told me how all his brothers and sisters were killed. I know how they died. I'm getting a little emotional. I mean, you're bringing it up because I don't think about it, because a long time ago for me, but I mean, he told me how this went down. And these were communists. Eva says there are people that swam across the Mekong River. This is in Southeast Asia, to survive, to escape, while people were shooting at them and people were hiding in the jungle. It was a movie, but it was real life. It was the real deal. And I have those stories. And what I'm trying to say to the audience is when I go off on some of these people that are. How should we say, collaborating with the Marxists, you know, like in the Republican Party. Okay. You know, a lot of Republican elected officials watch this. They won't admit to it, but I know they're watching it. And I'm hard on them. And I'm hard on them because right here. And you know this in St. Paul, Minneapolis, the Democrat Party of the Twin Cities is really under the control of Democrat socialists now. And Marx said socialism is the gateway drug to communism. So when they are conciliatory or try to govern with these people, it's just pulling our whole governance over to the kind of ideology which slaughtered anybody that was left in your home country.

[Cha Vang]

Right, exactly.

[David Penn]

So I'm fighting that because this is what happened to my people. My people. Anybody that was left was Killed. Killed. Because as you just said, they don't want that ideology around. We don't understand. This is a part of my pulpit. We're a Republican country. And I don't mean we don't have a Democrat party. And Republican party. I'm not talking about parties. We're Republican. Like the Republic of Mexico, which they're riding down there trying to reclaim the Republican governance. What is Republican governance? You're a citizen of this country. You're a sovereign of your own life. Nobody going to tell you how to paddle your canoe. You're the king of your own life. I'm the king of my own life. But I respect you. I respect you. Your rights are your rights. I'm going to respect that at all times. And as a Republican, I'm going to be involved in civic life. That's why I'm doing this. And I believe in the common good. So if your community is not participating in the common good. We've had a breakdown of the philosophy of Republicanism.

[Cha Vang]

Exactly.

[David Penn]

We got to fix that. That's the winning ticket for the Republican Party is. I tweeted this out this morning. Let's quit looking at our 401ks and start thinking about the common good. And that's why I'm trying to reach out to you to make a relationship. Because I believe in the common good. Now that doesn't mean we're communists. It means we have policy that doesn't aggregate all the benefits and gains of the society into a handful of folks's pockets. We got to spread it out. Or guess what's going to happen. Revolution, which you've seen right then, then.

[Cha Vang]

The pitchforks come out.

[David Penn]

That which is really. If you go roll the history back to a colonial enterprise, of course there was going to be war because colonialism is a kind of feudalism. It makes people into slaves. Right?

[Cha Vang]

Absolutely.

[David Penn]

And there's two philosophies we can choose from to overcome this. We can be Republicans or we can be Marxists. Your community wants to be Republicans. That's what I'm hearing you say. So how did you get here? They had to come. Your father had to come. He had to make that decision.

[Cha Vang]

You had to leave or you're going to get slaughtered. So it's a no brainer. You leave it. So that's how we got here in the United States. Most of us. Some went to France, some went to Australia, but mostly the United States.

[David Penn]

And was the United States government supporting this migration? And yeah. Yep, they was this a CIA also.

[Cha Vang]

They, they said it Went through a State Department.

[David Penn]

So same thing.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. I mean, same government, so. But yes, they, they were. And going back to what you said, America is the kindest country in the world, the big hardest. Not saying everybody but America overall. So I give credit where credit is due. We're, you know, my father and the mom felt betrayed because of the military operations and how the United States cut deals for their own benefit, long term.

[David Penn]

With bigger plans.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, with bigger plans. So in that sense, we felt betrayed. We're thankful that we were allowed to come here. If we didn't come here, we would not have the level of intelligence and education we have and the opportunities we have because of the freedom and opportunities in America because we compare ourselves with our relatives who still live in Laos and they still live very backward life. So now we have doctors, lawyers, we have engineers, we've got people work for NASA, we've got two commercial airline pilots.

[David Penn]

In two generations.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. In two generations, we've got a US Olympic gold medalist. So we've come a long ways. I mean, we were at the bottom of the social totem pole forever back in Laos. So if we look at this way, like my father said, you got, wherever you you're at, you got to look for silver lining. So, yes, we lost the country, but if we didn't lose the country, when we wouldn't have the life we have now. Now we, like Ronald Reagan said, we're the city on the shining hill for the rest of the home world.

[David Penn]

So the people that came here into Minnesota, they're mostly in the Twin Cities.

[Cha Vang]

Mostly concentrate in Twin Cities.

[David Penn]

And two generations, the first generation bore great suffering. Didn't speak the language, didn't have resources.

[Cha Vang]

The way my father, the analogy he used for first generations, we came over here and we were thrown into this 100 yard dash race. In this society, we're still, when we got here, we're still trying to put our shoes on and, you know, tie the shoelaces while the rest of, you know, the other racers are 50 yards down the road. That's how it was when we got here, because we didn't understand language, we didn't understand the laws, we didn't understand the cultures. Some of the people. And this is true. They went to the bathroom, they saw the toilet seat up and they saw water in there. They thought it was a well. This is true. People may think, hey, you're just making up. You got to understand, we had wells over there. We didn't have. And we had open toilets. We didn't have the modern Amenities that we have here.

[David Penn]

Well, I mean, I grew up in St. Paul, so I have to tell you, I was here when the Hmong community came to St. Paul. And I remember a lot of the difficulties that the traditional culture had when it ran smack dab into 1970s America. And it took some time, didn't it?

[Cha Vang]

It took some time. And you know, people talk about cultural shock. This was more than cultural shock.

[David Penn]

Well, I think you said Your father had 18 sons. Yeah, right. That didn't all come from one wife, did it?

[Cha Vang]

No, he had six wives.

[David Penn]

Okay.

[Cha Vang]

And there's some politics to that too.

[David Penn]

I'm sure there is. But you know, the politics here is one man, one woman, or you're going to lose everything you got. So it's a very different kind of a right culture. And what we tend to do, and this is a problem with America, we tend to be very judgmental. And I'm sure that judgmental those, that those judgments, you know, Christ said, judge not lest you be judged. But that judgment, those judgments probably are still to some degree at play holding these communities apart. Is that a reasonable statement?

[Cha Vang]

That is a reasonable statement, yeah.

[David Penn]

Unnecessary statement. Because what I'm hearing you say is that your community wants economic freedom, wants health freedom, wants religious freedom. I mean, really pretty much Republican values, all Republican values.

[Cha Vang]

I know that may sound biased because I'm Republican, but we've known nothing but Republican values in our homeland. Like I said, I mentioned a little.

[David Penn]

Bit earlier, there's nothing more self governing than living on a mountaintop. That is self governance.

[Cha Vang]

We had no social programs. You don't work hard or your clan doesn't help you die.

[David Penn]

Right.

[Cha Vang]

So we didn't know about welfare, we didn't know about free medication or anything like that until we got here.

[David Penn]

And then people went, wow, what's this? So what happened? People showed up, came poor. I know the Democrats showed up because my mom was amongst them.

[Cha Vang]

And we were talking about. You and I weren't, but I was talking to someone else. Why? People from the outside look at the Hmong community here and they say, why are most of the Hmong leaning left? It's a systematic thing because like you were talking when we came here, we needed that assistance. And where we got resettled was in inner urban core. That's where all, most of low housing, public housing are. So we're put into. You come from Mount now you go to urban core, you're in low income area. The only people that help you out, that you see day in, day out are the nonprofits. The social workers, the psychologists, and hate to say it, most of most of the Democratic political people come because, you know, they're the ones that put those programs together.

[David Penn]

Right. That's why they put them together.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. And exactly. So if you see those people and these, you know, and you're the benefactor of all their helping hands, over time, you get accustomed to seeing that, hey, these are my friends. And therefore, you know, that's why the system set up where we tend to lean left because, not, not because of our tradition, but because of the system here. But now you get now, now when we talk about economic growth now, all the home business people, they're very conservative.

[David Penn]

Going down University Avenue in St. Paul.

[Cha Vang]

For example, who wants to pay more taxes? Who wants more regulations?

[David Penn]

People are working hard.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

I mean, you know, you come from nothing. Suddenly you got a business. Yeah, I get that.

[Cha Vang]

I'll tell you what it. And you know this. If I'm, if I'm low income and you're just giving me freebies, I'm going to raise my hand and thank you. But if I'm the guy paying the taxes that feeds all these programs, I have an issue with the program is.

[David Penn]

Now the Klan system is very strong. Is there controversy about this issue within the Klan or does the Klan not take this up?

[Cha Vang]

They tend to not take it up.

[David Penn]

They know it's an issue.

[Cha Vang]

They know it's an issue. They'll probably talk about privately behind closed doors, but not openly.

[David Penn]

Because it's family.

[Cha Vang]

Because it's family.

[David Penn]

We miss that. See, here in the United States, we don't even know who our neighbors are. I mean, we don't know the names of our neighbors. Most kids are not most, but they move away in search of another life. The parents are on Social Security. They don't depend in your culture. Can the parents depend on their children for sustenance when they get older? For the most part, that's normal.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

See, that's not normal here. Yeah, we, the government takes care of the parents. But, you know, we're going to all criticize. See, now this is where it gets dicey. It's time to start taking these things apart. We have an entire social structure which breaks apart families in this country, creates dependency. Right, right. And we accept it because it's baked into the cake.

[Cha Vang]

That's the system.

[David Penn]

That's the system. Nobody ever talks about my parents or my aunt or my uncle or I'm Social Security age. I'm not taking it, but I could. But then we're going to point our Fingers over here. You know, this is a society wide dependency on government. It'd be nice if it was society wide dependency on each other. However, the government takes so much carrying fees to run this giant behemoth of a government that the government's the one coming out and we're getting the crumbs off the table. But what I'm hearing you say is the Hmong community knows about this. Every Hmong knows about it, but doesn't want to talk about it. But what is the way out of this? How does the community move from dependency to self sufficiency? Is there an impetus in those that are still in the government grasp to get out of there? Or if they acquiesce, then they're just part of the system.

[Cha Vang]

I'm, I'm sorry to say that the ones that are in government, they're part of the system.

[David Penn]

Now.

[Cha Vang]

It, I won't say names, but you know, we only have like nine or ten legislature up at the capitol and if you look at how they vote and bills that they put together and all that, you can tell they're part of the system.

[David Penn]

Well, you know, I find that's not unusual because like when I have meet in the Somali community, they're willing to do things and work with people that I wouldn't. And then I say, why are you doing that? And they said, well, you know, I'm a newcomer. You, you've been here for generations. And I don't think we understand that well as American citizens. To come here, get a citizenship and have nothing, and then have to try to make something out of nothing, that's not a small, not a small deal, particularly at a time when the system is so well developed. When my family came here, there was no system. The only way to get over. Well, that's why my, you're gonna laugh my family gangsters, because that was the only thing they could do. So they're criminals. And then what they did was they were criminals. And then when they got money, the first thing they did with that next generation is send them all to college and they all became doctors. Right, because it was different. But to come in the 70s, I don't want to say that the government brought the Vietnamese among communities here to make them dependent on government, just to change the demographics of the voting in Minnesota. Because there was a righteous part to it because these people that came actually served and died right, which is maybe different than some downstream groups. But hey, there was an aspect of that demographic voting thing, wasn't there?

[Cha Vang]

There is and there is Today too, when you hear about all these, you know, our immigration problems with the southern border, I mean, you listen to both sides. There's a reason why the policy was changed. Basically you can just walk across. I mean, you look at you. A friend of mine was talking to me about, you know, the Hmong community and immigration, all that. And he was saying, you know, why do you think that the Hmong are in all these non profit programs and they're not really graduating out of them? Because the non profits exist to serve people. And if you graduate them out where they don't need any more social service program, there's no more funding for all these organizations. They have no more purpose.

[David Penn]

So the purpose is to keep people dependent.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah. And that was from a guy that worked in the social service for over 30 years.

[David Penn]

You know, there's 30,000 NGOs in Minnesota, just in one state. 30,000.

[Cha Vang]

I believe that.

[David Penn]

30,000. Well, let me tell you about the Republicans. They have no idea about this because the Republicans still, you know, they're just not part of that system. It's two alternative realities. And I think the Democrat side knows what's going on much more, much more wisdom in that. Republicans are sitting out here. They just don't recognize. Well, they're starting to because they're seeing the corruption, but the depth of it, the way this dependency has integrated itself and not just with the monk community, but I'm saying it and people can get mad at me. Social Security is no different. It's the same thing. But see, we accept it because we earned it.

[Cha Vang]

Right?

[David Penn]

So that, that's the story, we earned it. But it's still dependency on government. Instead of me depending on my children, you know, I'm married. I said to this, you know, I'm in the Chinese community, I am. And Chinese people, they expect their children to take care of them. It would be a shame to have the government intervene. And you know, in China, like my in laws, $7 a month they get from the Chinese government, that's their Social Security try to live on seven bucks a month. So they have to be self governing. So all their children kick into a pot every month to take care of their parents. Yeah, same thing in your community.

[Cha Vang]

We do the same thing.

[David Penn]

Well, is it breaking down because of these, is that respect for family breaking down because of these government policies?

[Cha Vang]

It's starting to, it's starting to. That's sort of what we were talking about, the homeless issue for the Hmong. It's sort of breaking down the power structure and the responsibility of the clan system. That's why we have homeless. I tell you what, if you say no more programs to help homelessness for the Hmong, just let the Hmong elders handle. We'll handle it. I guarantee you say, hey, there's no more public benefit social programs for Hmong homelessness. So you 18 clan leaders, you gotta go talk to your clans and figure it out for the Vangs. I guarantee you we'll handle it.

[David Penn]

You know, it sounds like a very rational political strategy to me. To me, I mean, because I love the fact that in Asian culture I would be taken care of by my children. I love that. Now, of course, that requires me to be a better parent. You know, the benefit of Social Security is we don't have to be very good parents because the government is going to take care of us. This is so screwed up. This is the depth to which we've lost it here now. And so to get this back is going to require wisdom, courage, tenacity. There's a Chinese word, Jin. Endurance. Endurance.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

Most.

[Cha Vang]

Most of all, the operative word that you said is courage. You gotta have courage first. All the other stuff will fall in line behind.

[David Penn]

Courage is the most important.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. If you don't have that courage to stand up or, you know, speak up first, ain't nothing else.

[David Penn]

You were raised by a courageous man.

[Cha Vang]

For my father, there was only right and wrong, white and black. You know, he was a simple guy.

[David Penn]

Well, let's just talk.

[Cha Vang]

Because you live or you die.

[David Penn]

Let's just take a minute and I want you to just, if you, if you can talk about your brother's passing, because your brother, as I understand it, was he not leading the clan when he passed on?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, when my father passed away 14 years ago, the elders elected him to carry that mantle.

[David Penn]

So there is an election.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, well, there wasn't raising hands or anything. They just.

[David Penn]

It's a different kind of a. Yeah, I'm not going to be able to understand it unless I speak your language. Right.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. So there is a process.

[David Penn]

But.

[Cha Vang]

So he was elected and selected for that position. And he held that and, you know, did that very well for 14 years.

[David Penn]

And he recently, about two months ago, passed on.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, so he passed on. But. But going back to what you were saying or what we were talking about, I have a black friend. I have a lot of black friends. And he was telling me when. That's probably a couple years ago, he said, chop, be very careful. Use my community as an example. Don't be like us. I don't want 50 years for, you know, you, if you're still alive, look back and say, hey, how come we're like the black community? And what he was talking about, don't get stuck in the system, this perpetual poverty system or whatever system you want caught. And I see, I have a friend, I met him I think in the mid-90s, I think he was in Mount Airy public housing. He's still in public housing. I talked to him like maybe two months ago just to see how he's doing and he said he's fine. I said, are you happy? Yeah, I'm fine. You know, I pay a little bit for housing. I get some public subsidies and all that, so I'm fine. So he's comfortable. That's the danger is when you get comfortable in a system like that.

[David Penn]

Do you have some thoughts for your community to move? The people that are caught in the system? Do you imitate? I'm trying to put you on the spot and I'm not expecting you to have an answer, but maybe you thought about it and you have an answer. Is there some strategy within the clan to move these people towards self governance.

[Cha Vang]

For those that have been in the system too long, Number one, they've been system too. And number two, they're too old now to basically start a new life. But I'm not saying they can't improve their life. I mean they can go out and study and learn new things and enrich themselves personally. So when the good Lord takes them, at least you know, they have the benefit. Hey, my eyes are wider open now and I see further.

[David Penn]

How are their children doing?

[Cha Vang]

A lot of their, some of the children have been able to get out of that system. I'd say 50% get out, 50% are still struggling.

[David Penn]

Well, that's probably a higher percentage than some of the other.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, it is higher. But 50% struggling is still a lot.

[David Penn]

And then of course, if you're electing people from the community and they join the dependency party, that doesn't help, I would presume. Do we have some people coming out from the Hmong community that are running as Republicans? We do, don't we?

[Cha Vang]

We do. But I, I tell you this, and, and you guys probably know better than I do the inner core, not just St. Paul, Minneapolis, but the inner core is mostly, you know, low income folks, mostly because of, and they're in those systems so they see the benefits of the systems. So if you're a Republican, you're talking about, hey, you know, self improvement, you know, pull yourself up by your boots, work hard don't depend on the government. That doesn't resonate so well with them. Compared to the guy that says, hey, like me, sort of like Mandami, right? You like me. Free buses, free food, free health care. They're struggling in life. If they believe that I'm going to give them free, free, free, free stuff and make their life better, which they believe it will be, then of course they're going to vote for me. So in those districts, it's hard for a Republican to win. And that just, I'm not saying it's impossible, but when you're on a campaign trail and you deliver your speech to them, say, hey, you know, I'm going to build you guys a better life. But you've got, you know, you got to be tough, you got to go to school, you got to sacrifice, and maybe 10 years from now you'll own the House. Whereas the other guy says, yeah, listen, you know, the Republicans don't care about you. You know, he's going to try to cut the funding that's going to put food on your table or pay for your health care. That resonates.

[David Penn]

What do Republicans need to say? What would, what would be.

[Cha Vang]

I don't think it's so much saying because anybody can say anything.

[David Penn]

Not words.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, action speaks louder than words. And it's got to be insincere, like you were talking about earlier. You, you, you're not going to change, you know, change the course of this ship in one trip. It's got to be a long term strategy. And you gotta be sincere. You gotta show up. Show up. Do clan meetings, show up to festivals? If there's a prominent person that dies, show up.

[David Penn]

There's a 50 year anniversary coming up, isn't there? Speaking.

[Cha Vang]

This is a 50 year anniversary.

[David Penn]

And is there a big festival coming?

[Cha Vang]

I think it's coming on the 29th and 30th of November. Yep.

[David Penn]

At the River center in St. Paul.

[Cha Vang]

Yep. Not this coming weekend, but the following weekend.

[David Penn]

There's going to be a 50 year celebration which every American citizen could go to. It's open to the public.

[Cha Vang]

It's open to the public.

[David Penn]

It's at the river center, downtown St. Paul.

[Cha Vang]

Yep.

[David Penn]

And I heard tell there's going to be some 20,000 people going to attend this.

[Cha Vang]

20,000 people. You're going to see all the pageantry from the Hmong community. We've got our cultural dances, cultural music. You've got the Mrs. Minnesota, first time this year, Mrs. Minnesota, Hmong Minnesota and the Ms. Hmong Minnesota. And then you have dance groups. And you can't have a festival without politicians. You have politicians coming.

[David Penn]

Is there going to be a booth there for the Republican Party of Minnesota? Did they get a booth?

[Cha Vang]

I don't think there's a booth.

[David Penn]

Is there a booth there for the Democrat Party of Minnesota?

[Cha Vang]

No, no, but no booths.

[David Penn]

No booth, but they're welcome to come.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, we've got speakers from both sides of the aisle.

[David Penn]

You have candidates speaking at this deal.

[Cha Vang]

I don't know if the candidates are coming.

[David Penn]

Oh, I know I could get some candidates there in a heartbeat. Boy, if I can get on, if I get some candidates on the agenda, I could put in a bunch of them. The point is, what CHA is saying, American citizens that live here in Minnesota, you know, self governance, you know what you can do? You can show up at the deal and get to know your neighbors. Yeah, wouldn't that be cool? What? Yeah, it's.

[Cha Vang]

It's Saturday and Sunday. They have a ribbon cutting at 10:30 in the morning on Saturday, and that kicks off the whole thing, and then it runs until like, midnight every night.

[David Penn]

Does the Chinese community interact with the hmong community in St. Paul?

[Cha Vang]

That's not so much, though.

[David Penn]

Yeah, and that's because of the traditional. There's a traditional tension there.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, there's a low tension there.

[David Penn]

Yeah. Could that be healed here in the United States of America?

[Cha Vang]

I think it can be healed. You know, this sounds like a joke, but we reach across to them all the time because we eat Chinese food all the time, so we need to invite them to come eat Hmong food.

[David Penn]

Well, you know what? I'll bring the head man.

[Cha Vang]

Okay.

[David Penn]

We'll have a. We'll have a sit down.

[Cha Vang]

That'll be good.

[David Penn]

What are we going to drink?

[Cha Vang]

Hmong people drink everything.

[David Penn]

I mean, can we have a macallan or do we have some traditional, like baijo or. I mean, what. Is there a traditional moonshine that the monk people make in the mountaintops?

[Cha Vang]

Oh, I don't know if we can talk about that on the air here, can we? David said it, I didn't say it. All right? I know nothing about anything like that.

[David Penn]

Well, we're going to try to. What I'm all about just to end the podcast. You know, I love my state and I love my community, but more than anything, I love the fact that I can have religious freedom in the United States of America. Why my people came here instead of going to Israel. They didn't want to go to a war zone.

[Cha Vang]

Right.

[David Penn]

They didn't want to go hang around With a bunch of socialists. And that's who populated Israel back in the day. They wanted economic freedom, they wanted religious freedom. That's what they wanted. I grew up, I loved that idea. I don't want anybody to infringe on my religious freedom. And I know the Marxists, that's what their game is. They don't want me to have that. They don't want me to be economically self sufficient. So because I have those desires, I want to break bread with all of the different communities and make one. It's a community of. Community of American citizens. When I look at you, I'm going to tell you frankly, I can see, but that's not what I see. I just see another fellow American citizen of experience and of stature in his community. I'm very pleased to meet you. I welcome you back. We didn't even get to a lot of the stuff. I mean, I bet you got stories you could tell. Fill up four hours easy.

[Cha Vang]

We, we're going to need a lot of sessions.

[David Penn]

Yeah, but I, I, I'm, you know what we're doing? We're, we're, we're liaison with the smaller community. I got the Jewish community. Naturally, a lot of them don't like me, but a lot of them like me. We can now, we got outreach with the Vietnamese community. I got outreach with Chinese community, Hmong community. I'm going to work on getting involved with the Native American community, which I have connections with.

[Cha Vang]

Why?

[David Penn]

We're American citizens. They want to divide us so they can rule over us. That makes sense to you as a son of a military man?

[Cha Vang]

That makes sense. And I want to just applaud you for the work that you're doing. Like you said, when I look at you, I see you physically. But what's more important is how I feel about you. I feel good about you.

[David Penn]

Well, that means a lot to me because I'm looking at you the same way. I didn't tell you how many years I spent studying South Chinese culture. I mean, you're Chinese, right?

[Cha Vang]

Pretty much.

[David Penn]

I mean, when it comes right down to it. That's why I thought you're going to pull out some baijo or some kind. But I'm very glad you're here. I want to wish you good health and good luck and have a great festival.

[Cha Vang]

Thank you.

[David Penn]

And I'm going to come over there myself because I want to see what this is about. And I'm going to show up. Tanner.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah?

[David Penn]

We're going over to the festival. I know. Are you going to be in Town.

[Cha Vang]

I was looking at my schedule.

[David Penn]

I should be in town. Great. We're going.

[Cha Vang]

Cool.

[David Penn]

I'll meet you here on Sunday. We'll drive over. I bet you there's going to be great food there.

[Cha Vang]

There's a lot of great food. And I was just going to say you need to get Tanner out more often.

[David Penn]

I want to finish with a question because I realize that I do know.

[Cha Vang]

Something about the area and I have a very interesting question, if you know anything about it.

[David Penn]

The plane of jars.

[Cha Vang]

Oh, yeah. What was that?

[David Penn]

Went right after it, didn't he?

[Cha Vang]

Well, you know, they've got all these jars out there and the history, the story, and it's probably not true, is that there used to be giants out there and that's why there's those giant jars out there. But I think historically they said those are barrier urns. Okay. Yeah, I was just. I had read it and it says they can't. I'm glad you brought that up because my father gifted one of those jars, it's like almost £2,000 to the CIA.

[David Penn]

Wasn't that also a place of lots of fighting?

[Cha Vang]

Yeah, because it was flat. So it was strategic place. So that that jar is actually at the Smithsonian.

[David Penn]

Smithsonian. Wow.

[Cha Vang]

Yeah.

[David Penn]

Well, it was great to have you in. I want to thank you for coming, Ava. Thank you for coming in also, Tanner. Thank you. It's great. We're going to see you soon. Was nice to meet you, sir. Let's just stretch out here.

[Cha Vang]

My pleasure.

[David Penn]

Thank you so much. Thank you. Very nice to meet you, Tanner. Thanks very much. Of course.

[Cha Vang]

Thank you, Tanner.

[David Penn]

Of course.

[Cha Vang]

Appreciate it.

[David Penn]

Have a good night, everybody.

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