THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW, JANUARY 1ST, 2026

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Charlie Kirk Show (January 1, 2026)

Podcast: Real America’s Voice
Episode: THE CHARLIE KIRK SHOW, JANUARY 1ST, 2026
Date: January 1, 2026
Hosts: Michael Knowles, Ben Shapiro, with guest Tom Homan and audience participation

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Overview

This episode of The Charlie Kirk Show centers on two major themes:

1. Immigration and Border Security under the Trump Administration, featuring extensive commentary and policy updates from Tom Homan, former acting director of ICE, now overseeing deportations and border operations.
2. Coalition-Building and the State of the Conservative Movement, with Michael Knowles, Ben Shapiro, and the host panel reflecting on internal debates, generational shifts, and maintaining unity in the post-Trump right.

The show features a live audience, interactive Q&A, and is underscored by tributes to the late Charlie Kirk, emphasizing his role as a coalition builder and movement leader.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Status of U.S. Immigration Enforcement - Tom Homan’s Update

Tom Homan details President Trump’s directives and the outcomes of the current immigration policies.

• President Trump’s Three Directives (04:17):

  • Secure the border
  • Run the largest deportation operation in U.S. history
  • Locate the 300,000 missing children smuggled across during the Biden administration

• Record Border Security (04:35):

  • “I toured the border by air, in the river, on a boat, and a four wheel drive…In three days, I didn't see a single illegal alien. Now contrast that with 10,000 a day under the previous administration.” – Tom Homan (04:35)
  • Daily apprehensions down to an average of 160, all being turned around at the border, none released into the U.S.

• Historic Deportation Numbers (06:44):

  • “More people have been deported since [Trump] has been in office in less than one year than any time in the history of this nation.” – Tom Homan (06:44)
  • 650,000 deportations so far; projected to surpass 2.5 million when including those who self-deported.

• Locating Missing Children (07:25):

  • “I’m happy to report, as of this week, the Trump administration has found 129,000…many were involved in sex trafficking…President Trump’s leadership has saved thousands of lives of these young kids.” – Tom Homan (07:25)

Notable Statistics:

• Under Biden: 500,000 children smuggled, 300,000 missing

• Under Trump: 129,000 of those missing recovered

• Net outflow: Approx. 2.5 million people left the U.S. (09:32)

• Strategy:

  • Visible ICE enforcement teams drive voluntary departures
  • Prioritize deportations of criminals and national security threats, but all undocumented are targets for removal

2. Controversies: Sanctuary Cities, Legal Challenges, and Blue Governance

• Sanctuary City Obstacles (15:48, 17:57):

  • Mayors, governors, and judges in blue areas hinder ICE access to jails and enforcement operations
  • “If you impede immigration enforcement, that’s a crime…You put a hand on an ICE officer, you’re going to jail. Not some local jail, you’re going to go federal prison.” – Tom Homan (16:28)

• Legal Actions and Enforcement (19:51):

  • Sanctuary city officials possibly liable for “harboring/concealing” illegal immigrants
  • “We’re going to flood the zone” with more ICE agents in sanctuary jurisdictions
  • Example: Milwaukee judge convicted for obstructing ICE (20:20)

• ICE Expansion and Resources (26:51):

  • Hiring 10,000 new ICE officers, expanding to 100,000 beds
  • Large-scale operation enabled by new funding (“Big Beautiful Bill”)

3. Enforcement Details & Audience Q&A

• Law and Order Emphasis

  • Enforcement of existing law (USC 1325: misdemeanor on first illegal entry, 1326: felony on repeat)
  • Surge in prosecutions and identity theft charges against those using stolen Social Security numbers

• Worksite Enforcement:

  • Targeted actions against employers knowingly hiring illegal workers
  • Promise of intensified enforcement in coming year

• Voter Rolls & Driver’s Licenses (34:01):

  • Concerns addressed about illegal immigrants acquiring driver’s licenses and potentially voting, especially in blue states

• Outreach to Law Enforcement:

  • Tips on how local officers can cooperate via anonymous hotlines (41:10, 42:00)

• Somali Deportations and Denaturalization:

  • Efforts in cities like Minneapolis to re-vet and deport criminal non-citizens (43:24)

4. Conservative Coalition: Philosophy, Debates, and the Legacy of Charlie Kirk

• Coalition Building (46:41):

  • Michael Knowles highlights Kirk’s talent for uniting factions and keeping coalitions intact
  • “The distinctive thing that he did was build and maintain coalitions, often thanklessly, behind the scenes…always moving forward toward a goal.” – Michael Knowles (47:18)

• Generational Debates: Online Right, Tariffs, Nationalism, Immigration, and Israel

  • Factional disputes are longstanding but part of healthy policy evolution
  • “Politics involves applying internal principles to constantly changing circumstances.” – Michael Knowles (52:55)
  • Explicit rejection of ideological “purity tests” except for core values (love of country, opposition to injustice, etc.)

• Views on Israel and Foreign Policy:

  • Calls for pragmatic, non-binary approach to U.S.-Israel relations (“not all or nothing”)
  • “It would be a very dumb thing to destroy the conservative coalition over our attitude towards what is ultimately a foreign country.” – Ben Shapiro (63:01)
  • Recognition of generational and online divides, but urge for nuance and context (59:40–66:12)

5. Audience Q&A (Select Highlights)

• Religious and Faith Integration:

  • Students ask about bringing Christianity and politics together on campus
  • “Politics can be the doorway in. But Charlie used to always say, those who drink from the streams of liberty will eventually find its source. We believe that's Christ.” – Host (77:22)
  • Encouragement for balancing apologetics and logic in both arenas

• Advice for Young Conservatives:

  • Get involved locally, value formation, and don’t try for fame too young (73:00–74:46)
  • “Get that practical experience that you can’t get from books out of student government, school board elections…But then also read, immerse yourself in history and political philosophy.” – Michael Knowles (74:00)

• Parental Concerns: Public vs. Private Education:

  • “You’ve given your kid a great formation…That period [before high school] you’ve done such a great job of making that really solid that I think you can have reasonable confidence that the teachers won’t screw it up too much in the public school. But you have to keep a real eye on it.” – Michael Knowles (83:15)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“We got the most secure border right now in the history of this country.”
– Tom Homan (04:35)

“More people have been deported since [Trump] has been in office in less than one year than any time in history…”
– Tom Homan (06:44)

“You put a hand on an ICE officer, you’re going to jail…federal prison. Zero tolerance.”
– Tom Homan (16:28)

“If you don’t want to help us, just get out of the way. We’ll protect your community for you.”
– Tom Homan (20:40)

“The distinctive thing that [Charlie] did was build and maintain coalitions, often thanklessly, behind the scenes…always moving forward toward a goal.”
– Michael Knowles (47:18)

“It would be a very dumb thing to destroy the conservative coalition over our attitude towards what is ultimately a foreign country.”
– Ben Shapiro (63:01)

“If you are cruel, if you promote vulgar hatred on the basis of race or sex or religion, you’re off the team.”
– Michael Knowles (55:55)

“Politics can be the door, doorway in…those who drink from the streams of liberty will eventually find its source. We believe that’s Christ.”
– Host (77:22)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:17] Tom Homan details Trump’s immigration directives
• [06:44] Deportation numbers and border security statistics
• [09:32] Audience Q&A: Net departures and incentives for voluntary departure
• [15:48] Sanctuary city cooperation and legal debates
• [19:51] Milwaukee judge’s conviction for impeding ICE
• [26:51] Workforce expansion and ICE resources
• [28:38] Legal definitions: civil vs. criminal border crossing
• [34:01] Driver’s licenses, voter rolls, and state policies
• [41:10/42:00] Tip line information disseminated for law enforcement
• [43:24] Somali deportations and denaturalization
• [46:41] Charlie Kirk’s coalition-building legacy
• [52:41–56:12] On the future of the Conservative coalition: boundaries, diversity, and evolution
• [59:40–66:12] Debate over America’s relationship with Israel and anti-ideological conservatism
• [73:04] Advice for aspiring young conservatives
• [77:22] Strategy for integrating faith and politics on campus
• [83:15] Encouragement and practical advice for parents on public schooling

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Tone

The conversation is passionate, direct, at times combative concerning opponents, and deeply reverent about the role of the conservative movement and Charlie Kirk's legacy. The speakers use accessible, sometimes jocular language, and blend policy data with emotional anecdotes and culture-war rhetoric.

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This summary provides a comprehensive, insightful overview of the episode—serving both as a standalone resource for non-listeners and a reference for discussion points, arguments, and personalities in this pivotal New Year's edition of The Charlie Kirk Show.

Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

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[Ben Shapiro]

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[Michael Knowles]

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[Michael Knowles]

The voice of a generation that still has the will to believe in the greatest country in the history of the world. This is the Charlie Kirk Show. Buckle up. Here we go.

[Host / Moderator]

But without further ado, tom homan. The great tom homan.

[Ben Shapiro]

I think that's. I think that's the biggest round of applause we've gotten for any of these guys so far.

[Host / Moderator]

And you know why? We're all here. We're going to be talking about marginal tax rates.

[Tom Homan]

Healthcare.

[Host / Moderator]

Healthcare. What do we got here? Yeah, Israel. No, borders are. Mr. Borders are. Tom Homan, you are an American folk hero at this point. You're an American hero. You're my hero as well. You are tasked with overseeing probably the most important political plank of President Trump's 2024 election, I would say, in his campaign, and that would be deportations, making sure the bad guys get removed from our country. And you have a heck of a job dealing with a lot of these blue states, blue cities, blue counties, blue mayors. Why don't you just give us an update of how the task is unfolding?

[Tom Homan]

All right, so when President Trump, I was the first guy he called when he called me and I agreed to come back, which my wife's still pissed off about. How many times you gonna unretire anyway?

[Host / Moderator]

So you're like Michael Jordan of deporters.

[Tom Homan]

He asked me, he said, look, I want you oversee three things. I need to secure the border. I need to run the biggest deportation operation in the nation's history and we need to find these 300,000 missing kids. So where are we at? We got the most secure border right now in the history of this country. I just got back a few days ago. I went to Texas border, I went to Arizona border and I went to the California border. I toured the border by air, in the river, on boat and a four wheel drive on some of the most treacherous parts of the border. In three days, I didn't see a single illegal alien. Now contrast that with 10,000 a day under the previous administration. So look, I don't take credit for any of this. It's the men and women of the Border Patrol, men and women wearing that uniform that stand in that line every day. God bless each and every Bor patrol agent. I love them, each and every one of them. And none of this wouldn't happen unless we had President Trump in the Oval Office, who happens to be the greatest president in my lifetime, bottom line, hard stop. So, and when he told me, he says, these are the three things, we can lock the border down. We've done it before. We did it in Trump 45. But the numbers this year in Trump 47 are far better than Trump 45. Daily people coming to the border, across 2,000 miles of border as average about 160. And every one of them are being turned around. No one's being released in the United States. Deportation operation. He promised the country historic deportation operations. It's already historic. More people have been deported since he's been in office in less than one year than any time in history of this nation. The biggest year we ever had was FY12. FY12. There was 409,000 people removed. We're at over 650,000, and we're not even done yet. So the President's delivering on record deportation. Despite the sanctuary cities, despite the protesters, despite the hate, the men and women of ICE are getting this done at an amazing rate. The children, that was the toughest out of all three. And let me tell you why, because we can find you. You own a home, you got a car, you have credit cards, you pay bills, you have a digital footprint. Kids don't. So we had to rely on the digital footprint of the unvetted sponsors. Many of the addresses the agents are going to are parking lots. Many of these addresses were never checked. A lot of these sponsors weren't even fingerprinted, no DNA testing. So a half a million children, a half a million were smuggled across the border under Joe Biden. Many victims of trafficking. So they lost track of 300,000. They couldn't find them. 300,000. I'm happy to report, as of this week, the Trump administration has found 129,000. These are 129,000 children that the last administration wasn't even looking for. And look, many of them were safe with their families, just hiding out. They didn't want to be deported. But many were involved in sex trafficking, being sold to sex slavery, forced labor. President Trump's leadership has saved thousands of lives of these young kids. So God bless President Trump and God bless his administration. That's where we're at.

[Host / Moderator]

I love it. And, you know, something that a lot of people talk a lot about, and I think it's a good thing to talk about, because people don't. They want mass deportations and they want it yesterday. Right. They want all 20 million or whatever the number is.

[Ben Shapiro]

Some people just. They make up wild ones. I think someone said 100 million, 100 million.

[Host / Moderator]

We want a. I would take 100 million people. Getting the traffic would be amazing. So. But, Tom, you know, we have a net flow of people out of the. Out of the country. And I think back to the Eisenhower administration, the last real deportation effort that has been done in this country, and there is this ratio of. If you deport one person, chances are you're going to get X number of deportations. That ratio is about 1 to 10 in Eisenhower. So we're actually getting a lot more people out of this country. What is the total number we think have left either of their own accord, and they've taken the deal that you guys are offering with plane tickets and a stipend. What do we think that number's at right now?

[Tom Homan]

Just below 1.9 million.

[Host / Moderator]

Is that on top of the 650,000 deportation, or is that all in?

[Tom Homan]

No. Yeah, yeah, over 600,000. We're about 2.5 million.

[Host / Moderator]

2.5 million.

[Tom Homan]

And let me say this, because this isn't talked about enough. That was always a part of the plan. People say, oh, you shouldn't count them. You didn't deport them. That was always a part of the plan. We knew if we put 1,000 ice teams on the streets and show there are consequences. For instance, country illegally. And you heard from day one, there's a lot of media out there. Homeland only wants criminals and public safety threats. Look, I said from day one, we are going to prioritize the public safety threats and national security threats because they pose the most danger. But if you're in the country legally, you're not off the table. We find you, you're going home. So because of what ICE is doing, they're sending a message to the whole world. No free pass anymore. We have laws. You want to be part of the greatest nation on Earth, do it the right way. If you're in this country, we're going to seek you out. We're going to find you and deport you because of what ISIS is doing every day that the left is hating, that sent a message to the whole world. The most vulnerable people in the world are not giving their life savings to a criminal cartel to swim across the river. They know there's no free pass here right now. So. And because of that, that's a big part. We have the most secure border ever. People aren't willing to make that sacrifice and put themselves in danger. Plus, the ISA operation is sending a strong message. Leave on your own. If you're not formally deported, you may leave yourself an avenue in the future to come on a visitor visa, work visa, or maybe have a relative that can petition from you. But if we have to formally find you and deport you, you're not coming back. So I think those two things are a game changer for people. So look, secure border because of President Trump, because of men and women aboard to wear the green uniform. But a lot of it has to do with ISIS doing every day in the country.

[Ben Shapiro]

That was always one of the most infuriating things with the border rhetoric, where they'd say, oh, you can't secure the border because there's 10,000 people there and you know, your only option would be to shoot all of them. And really, you're revealing what the truth is, which is even a little bit of toughness and showing that we're a real country. And the demand melts away. The people arriving endlessly, they just melt away. The problem sort of solves itself eventually.

[Tom Homan]

We were enforcing the law. The last administration ignored the law. You know what federal law says. When you come to the border without proper documentation, you shall be detained.

[Michael Knowles]

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[Tom Homan]

You know what federal law says. When you come to the border without proper documentation, you shall be detained. Not maybe not think about it. Not giving it to an NGO to be, you know, put in a hotel room, 500 bucks a night. And when President Trump came in, he told us, now you enforce laws written in a book. So you know, ice because they're enforcing law, because President Trump let them fulfill the mission and the oath they took. Now you're seeing what's happening. This country's much. And despite the rhetoric out there from the left, the majority of people ICE arrests are criminals. They just think they're. They don't think they're criminal enough. Oh, it's just a DUI. DUI killed 12,000 people a year last year. So DUI is a public safety threat. So over half are criminals and a lot of them, some people say last numbers are, look around 60% criminal. It was like 70. It's floating around 62 kind of look at the data every day. So who are the other 35%? A lot of them are national security threats. Most national security threats don't have a criminal history because they're laying low to wait for the dirty deed. Right. Many of them are final orders. These are people who had due process at great taxpayer expense, were ordered removed by a federal judge and said, I'm not going to become a fugitive. You damn right we're looking for them and we find that we're executing their removal. So. And are there people they're arresting that are not a public safety threat, not a national security threat, not a fugitive? Yeah, absolutely. We're enforcing immigration law. Yeah. So we're finding that we're gonna be arrested.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Host / Moderator]

And how many have stolen IDs and Social Security numbers? I mean these are not victimless crimes either, by the way.

[Tom Homan]

Actually we're doing a surge on that right now. Illegal aliens that are using your Social Security number are going to criminally charge them with identity theft. We're going to charge the employer for knowingly hire. Look, we're going to enforce a lot. I think if you think the numbers are good now, wait till we surge on work site enforcement and wait till these 10,000 new officers are on the street. You think the numbers are good this year, wait till next year.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, I'll clap for that.

[Tom Homan]

It.

[Host / Moderator]

You have often gone on tv, I've heard you say, listen, you know, to these blue city mayors, we understand you don't like this, but just don't get in our way. If you impede immigration enforcement, that's a crime. And it always strikes me when you say that line that impede is doing a whole lot of work in that sentence. Because I look at what they're doing, whether it's, you know, telling folks that you're coming or they're turning a blind eye to these citizen networks that are monitoring where ICE vehicles at. I mean, how is all of that not illegal?

[Ben Shapiro]

How, how can.

[Host / Moderator]

We can't arrest so many of these jerks that are trying to get in your guys way.

[Tom Homan]

Well, I think it is, and Attorney General Pam Bondi and her staff looking at that, I can tell you this. 18 USC 111 peering interference with an ICE officer, we got historic number of prosecutions. So for the protesters out there that want to cross that line and be a criminal, you spit on an ICE officer, you put a hand on an ICE officer, you interfere with the officer's arrest, you're going to jail and you're Going to be prosecuted. And the numbers show it. I hear people say all the time, why aren't you wrestling more? We're wrestling you and Peters. You put hands on us, there's zero tolerance. Zero tolerance. You put a hand on an officer, you're going to jail. And not some local jail, you're going to go federal prison. So we're taking it seriously. But I agree with you. And I've said, look, when I was ICE director, I remember the first news interview I did, the left went crazy. Guy says, sanctuary city officials, we need to look at them. At what point are you harboring and concealing illegal alien? When I was an agent, a long time ago, I had hair. You know, there's still something there tomorrow, very little more than me. You, I got you, B.

[Host / Moderator]

Somebody's been deporting all your. Your hair follicles. Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

Sent off to. Sent off to El Salvador.

[Tom Homan]

So when I was an agent in Phoenix, Arizona, I did a big, big piece of my career here. I've arrested US citizens for annoyingly harboring, concealing illegal alien their home or illegal alien to workplace.

[Host / Moderator]

We got governors and judges that do that.

[Tom Homan]

So here's my question. If you got Holman County Jail, and we know for a fact, based on fingerprint biometrics by graphical data, we have an illegal in that jail right now. We know he's in that jail. We just got a printout saying he's in that jail. We have a warrant for his arrest, or he's been deported before, which means we can prosecute him for a felony. If we're not allowed in that facility, if we're not allowed access that facility, is that not harboring, concealing? So I've asked DOJ to look at it. So look, Pam Bonney is soon Department of Justice, suing sanctuary cities across the country. I have faith we'll win. And when we do, you're going to see the whole world get lit on fire. Because sanctuary cities. Until then. Until then, I've said, and people say, oh, you're threatening democratic cities. No, I'm not. I'm threatening sanctuary cities. If you don't want to work with us, then get out of the way. We'll do it for you. But what we're going to do, we're going to flood the zone if you don't give us access to the jail. Look, back in my day, one agent can arrest one illegal alien in a county jail. It's safer for the alien, it's much safer for the agent, and it's safer for the community. Right. Well, if you're going to annoyingly release a public safety threat in the community, that means we ought to send a whole team now to rest him on his turf where he has access to know who knows what weapons. So what we're going to do, since we know sanctuary cities are a problem, since we know sanctuary cities are knowingly releasing criminal public safety threats to the community, what are we going to do? We're going to flood the zone. We're going to send more officers to sanctuary cities and flood the zone. So my message to sanctuary cities is, you know, you're going to get exactly what you don't want. You will get more agents in your communities and you will get more collateral. Rest. Because when we find that bad guy, many times are with others, if they're in a country lately, they're coming too.

[Ben Shapiro]

I want to give you guys a shout out because you've mentioned there's going to be consequences for this. And I think with Amfest going on, people didn't hear about this, but they may remember back in April, there was this Milwaukee county judge, Hannah Duggan, and there was a illegal immigrant in her court for battery, had committed a violent crime and she hindered ICE from being able to arrest him. Said, I'm not going to allow you into my chambers. Tried to shelter him, I think, let him out through a back door, Scurried.

[Host / Moderator]

Him out the back.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes.

[Ben Shapiro]

And this week she was convicted in a court of felony hindering of officers.

[Host / Moderator]

That might have got a larger applause than you got right there. That's how hungry the people are for justice.

[Tom Homan]

You're going to see more of that.

[Host / Moderator]

Good. Can't wait.

[Tom Homan]

I'm not up here to threaten anybody, but I've been clear from day one, Sanctuary cities, if you don't want to help us, just get out of the way. We'll protect your community for you. Any mayor or governor that wants to push back on ICE and say, we don't want you in our neighborhoods, your number one responsibility is the safety and security of their communities. ICE has taken a lot of public safety threats out of your community. You all be thanking us, not protesting us us and not pushing back against us. So it's not a threat. I'm just telling what we're going to do. We're going to flood the zone and we got 10,000 new agents coming on. Watch what happens.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, I.

[Michael Knowles]

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[Host / Moderator]

Love to hear the and I think, you know, I. I recently talked with Stephen Miller, who I know you work closely with in the White House.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah, Stephen.

[Host / Moderator]

Talk about him for a second. How good is he?

[Tom Homan]

He's brilliant. He's great.

[Host / Moderator]

Do we love Stephen Miller?

[Tom Homan]

Look, I'm. I'm an old man. I can tell you right now, Stephen Miller is probably the smartest man I've met in my life. The guy, every day, we have a meeting every day, and I sit there and he brings up stuff, and I go, wow, I haven't heard that in 35 years. I mean, this guy, this guy knows this issue. I'm proud to work with him. He's a game changer. He's the architect. Brilliant. I respect him greatly.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, well, again, I go back to this word impede. These guys are impeding the heck out of you guys, and you know it. And I just. I'm just gonna leave it here because you've answered the question, but I hope there's more we can do legally to get these guys to stop impeding the good work that you guys are doing. Because it's so important. A lot of these mayors need to go see jail cells, as far as I'm concerned.

[Tom Homan]

Well, I.

[Host / Moderator]

And governors.

[Tom Homan]

I know things you don't. Wait. I can just say, look, wait. Wait and see.

[Host / Moderator]

By the way, this is why the midterms are so important, right? Because getting these Republicans to do anything next year ahead of these midterms, they're going to be total cowards and they don't want to rock the boat. Little do they know that would actually galvanize support and more people would show up for them. But if. If we have a good outcome in these midterms, and even if we don't, frankly, because we still have the federal branch. But, like, there is going to. I believe that you guys are going to be even more emboldened. There's going to be even more Runway for you guys to do some really important things.

[Tom Homan]

Let me end. I think we're done. Let me end with this. I want to say the same thing I said last week when I was down in San Diego and did a press conference. I'm asking every mayor or governor, you cannot like us. You can protest us, you can impede us, you can call us all the names you want. I'm asking them to stop the hateful rhetoric. Because I said back in March, if the hateful rhetoric doesn't die down, there's going to be bloodshed. And there has been. People have died. And as I said last week, I have throughout my long career, I've buried Border patrol agents, I've buried ICE agents. And the worst part of my job is handing a folded flag to a child or a spouse. I don't want to bury anybody else. So please stop the hateful rhetoric, because threats of assault are up, like 1800. No, excuse me, 8,000% actual assault drip like 1,200%. So I'm begging you, no more bloodshed. And, you know, every night I go to bed, I pray for the men and women ICE in Bordjo, but I also pray for the people we're looking for. I don't want anybody to die. So for God's sakes, stop the hyper rhetoric, just like us, all you want, but stop calling these people Nazis and racists and Gestapo because you got nuts out there that feel emboldened to take action again. Argue with us all you want. Come to the table and talk to me. Sanctuary cities. I want to work with sanctuary cities. I want them to work with us and concentrate on public safety risks. But stop the hateful rhetoric. I'm telling you, the bloodshed isn't over. So, you know, God bless the men and women of ice. God bless the men and women Borbjo, God bless President Trump and God bless the greatest nation on Earth.

[Michael Knowles]

The.

[Ben Shapiro]

Big beautiful bill included funding for the expansion of ice, So I imagine hiring for that is ongoing. Training for that is ongoing. Can you lay out the picture of how much is the force expanding? How quickly were those men and women be rolled out into the field, and how will that translate to the pace of deportations across the country?

[Tom Homan]

Thousands already on the in the field. New hires, 10,000. We expect all 10,000 will be on the street by the end of January.

[Host / Moderator]

That's great.

[Tom Homan]

Of course, with that, I pushed from day one for 100,000 beds. We'll get to 100,000 beds. And it's not because, you know, because when you hire 10,000 more people, look, right now when all this started, we had 5,000, just under 5,000 deportation officers. We're 110,000 more. We're tripling the size of the workforce. So we need 100,000 beds because everybody we arrest, we need a bed. We don't. People don't. We don't arrest somebody in New York City and send them to, you know, Venezuela the next day. You have to bed them down and make arrangements to fly south. So we need a bed for everybody we arrest. So we need 100,000 beds. With 100,000 beds, with 10,000 new agents with more walls being built. Went down. Look at more wall construction. It's going to be amazing year. It's going to be amazing year.

[Host / Moderator]

And we got more judges coming, more border patrol. There was, wasn't there 3,000 more border patrol in the. I think it's five, 5,000 more border patrols. So this is a part of our government. It's the only part that hasn't grown since its inception. And you guys have finally got more funding for it.

[Tom Homan]

So ice, this is the first ICE buildup I've seen. Yeah, Border patrol. And I love the bor patrol. I started as border patrol agent. They get plussed up all the time. And everybody, they rest, many of them come to ice. ICE didn't get a plus up. Now ICE got the plus up they deserve. And perfect timing. We're running the biggest deportation operations country ever seen. And we need more. We need more boots on the ground. And we're getting boots on the ground.

[Host / Moderator]

Amen. You want to do a few questions, Mr. We do that. Emma, you want to. Awesome.

[Tom Homan]

Good afternoon, Mr. Homan.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you for your service to the country. So I have two questions. Why is crossing the border a civil offense and not a criminal offense? And can we make it a criminal offense? And what would the steps be for that?

[Tom Homan]

Well, crossing the border legally is a criminal offense. Title 8, United States Code 1325. It's a crime to enter the country legally. And it's called, you know, 8 USC 1325. I can tell you right now, the record prosecution for 1325 are going on right now. We have historic number of prosecutions on the border. Not only a 1325, but 8 USC 1326 is re entering the country illegally after you've been formally deported. That's a felony. 13 USC 1325, illegal entry is a misdemeanor. Your first offense. If you get deported and come back, that's a felony. So we are prosecuting them. Cases, a record number. 1325, 1326. Prosecutions are amazing. So that's actually showing the consequences, actually also a part of why the border is so secure. So I want to be clear. I know there's politicians out there saying entering country legally is not a crime. As I said to AOC years ago, it is a crime. And any legislator don't know that should go back to school. Pardon me?

[Host / Moderator]

They quit their job.

[Tom Homan]

Appreciate the question, but that's a misnomer. A lot of. You know, you read the. You read a lot of the media. They say it's administrative. No, it isn't. It's a crime.

[Michael Knowles]

Can I take a picture with you?

[Host / Moderator]

Send him up.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah, sure.

[Host / Moderator]

All right, next question. You can come on up, and we'll keep asking the questions.

[Ben Shapiro]

Did you get photos of, like, did any kids dress up as, like, ICE agents for Halloween? They should.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, they should have. All right, we'll get them up. Next question. Yeah. All right. Here you go, buddy.

[Tom Homan]

Come on. Yep.

[Host / Moderator]

Aw, this is a good picture. Yeah.

[Tom Homan]

Let's go.

[Host / Moderator]

Oh, it's great.

[Tom Homan]

Because you're so brave. Here's one of my coins.

[Ben Shapiro]

Thank you very much.

[Tom Homan]

Future Borg patrol agents. What? You want to be a border turtle agent?

[Michael Knowles]

Sure.

[Tom Homan]

Go.

[Host / Moderator]

Let's go.

[Michael Knowles]

Awesome.

[Ben Shapiro]

Well, hopefully by the time he's old enough, we, like, won't even need them, but.

[Host / Moderator]

So, Tom, I don't know if you remember me from last year. I don't remember which one it was, but I did get to ask you a question about if you're going to war with the cartels, and I was right. I'm very pleased to announce that we are going to war with the cartels. It's very dangerous. It's very evil. Fentanyl is a super amazingly powerful weapon. It should be classified as a weapon, and people should think about it that way. My question to you, kind of related, is, when you're in front of the msm, what you should ask them is, how is it that it's not racist to not deport people who are stealing jobs from minorities? They call you racist all the time. They're the ones who are racist. You need to ask them that question and say, you're the ones. You're the media. You're the ones who say you're defending, you know, the people's interests. Tell me how it's not Racist to not deport the people who are stealing jobs from minorities. That's what I think you should ask them.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah, well, look, that's a great point. And I'll tell you something, I tell people, we don't talk about much at all. They say that, look, you know, have a heart. I mean, you're racist. Why are you deporting people? They just simply come in for a better life. I get that, but what's happened? Under Biden administration, millions of people came to the border and claimed to sign them, which they weren't qualified to claim. That's why based on immigration court data, nearly nine out of 10 people who claim asylum at the border end up with an order removal. They get order deported. Why? Because they don't qualify for asylum. They're not escaping fear and persecution from their home government because of race, religion, political affiliation. They're coming for a better life. And I get that, but that's not asylum. So while they're making these frauds and asylum claims are clogging up the courts back to seven years, there are actually thousands of people in the world that really are escaping fear and persecution that needs our help, and they're sitting in the back seat. And I'll say another thing about illegal immigration. Every illegal immigrant across the border legally is a cheater because there are millions of people standing in line, taking their tests, paying their fees, getting vetted, doing a background investigation to be part of the greatest nation on earth. And now they're back in the bus. So. So do I apologize for enforcing immigration law? I absolutely do not. We're going to enforce it. And again, we always prioritize the most dangerous in the community. But if you're in the country legally, we're looking for you. And when we find you, we're going to deport you.

[Host / Moderator]

Simple as that. Amen.

[Tom Homan]

Hi, Mr. Homan, I'm from Boston and I had a question. I'm sorry.

[Host / Moderator]

So our state, between the state and.

[Tom Homan]

City government is very left leaning, sanctuary city, and they give driver's licenses regardless of immigration status. I'm curious what you're doing to help make sure people, those people don't get on the voter rolls. That's an issue dealing with right now. We're prioritizing that across the country. I'm sorry you're stuck there. I mean, look, it's a great city, but your governor, mayor, I mean, your mayor's. Dude. I testified in front of Congress under oath that I was lying about the criminal threat of illegal aliens in Boston. Look at the numbers. Of the criminals we took off the street of Boston. You're welcome, city of Boston. You're welcome to the state of Massachusetts. But voter rolls and illegal aliens voting all over it. You will see a big difference coming. Not me. I'm not on it, but I can tell you people are on. I'm a little busy, but that's being looked at by other branches. But we've got the greatest president in history has that concern too. And we're looking at. I love you, Mr. Holman.

[Ben Shapiro]

You're the only one having everyone just yell that they love you from the audience. I'm not gonna say that.

[Tom Homan]

Well, you know I'm married.

[Michael Knowles]

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[Host / Moderator]

Play hundreds of slot games, all the table games you love, and you could.

[Michael Knowles]

Even win real cash prizes.

[Host / Moderator]

New users, $30 coin packs are on sale for [e-mail] Spin Quest is a free to play social casino.

[Michael Knowles]

Void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. News flash, Democrats, America is a republic, not a democracy. Fact check.

[Tom Homan]

True. Well, you know, I'm married, but I don't know, if I unretire again, I might not be.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, don't do it again.

[Tom Homan]

Look, I got look, and I want to say something. You know, I took a hell of a pay cut to come back. You know, the death threats against me and my family. I lived apart from my wife for a long time. Amazing. When I got the call, all kidding aside, she told me, you need to do it. Because she saw the last four years. She got angry too. I think you all got angry the last four years. So even though she knew, okay, here comes the protest at the house again. I had a thousand people protest at one of my homes, at my vacation home where my wife was. But she's putting up with it. She understands what we're doing right now is saving lives everywhere. You know, by having illegal immigration down 94%. Think about this. There's been studies done that 31% of women that make that journey through the cartels get sexually assaulted, they get raped. Under Joe Biden, over 4,000 aliens died making that journey. Hit historic record. Quarter million Americans died from fentanyl. Historic record. They say his policies were humane. No, they were killing Americans at record numbers. Killing aliens at record numbers. No humanity there. President Trump has ILLUMINA Grace down 94% right now, when 94% less people are coming. How many people are being raped? How many children are dying making that journey? How many women and children aren't being sex trafficked? How many pounds of fentanyl isn't coming across the country, across the border to kill Americans? How many? No, inspector. Terrorists aren't coming. President Trump saving thousands of lives every month. And what we're doing right now is just, I'm excited every look, I get tired, but every time I read a hit peace sign, I get all fired up again. So keep writing them because I'm not going anywhere, folks. I'm not going anywhere.

[Host / Moderator]

You know how many angel moms are being prevented as well? You know, we have a few at this event and every time you see them, it's, it's takes your breath away. Yes. Mr. Holman, I'm 18 years law enforcement in just outside of Chicago. This is something that gets to everybody I work with. When you guys had your operations in Chicago, I had two people. I ran through NCIC automatically came up trend agua and I notified my command and they said, just print it out, we'll put it in our folder. I cannot tell you how infuriating it is for us on the streets knowing that I got a guy sitting, sitting in front of me trend agua. He knows what after I run him and then sits there and laughs at me. Had to, had to just process them. And because of the state laws in Illinois, he got to walk back out on the streets. I never saw him again because we have catch and release for crimes now in Illinois. What, what advice can one, can you give us to the boots on the ground who want to put take these guys and do something with them, knowing that they're trend agua, for example. And two, is there a way that ICE can actually come up with an anonymous tip line so we can actually call you guys to say, hey, my state won't let me arrest this guy, but I got a trend agua guy sitting in my car right now and my boss wants me to walk him out the door.

[Tom Homan]

Well, there is a new tip. I forgot what it was. Where'd my chief of staff. She wouldn't know. Anyways, there is a tip line. I'll have you. I'll get that. Tip line, DHS something. Anyways, there is a tip line you can call.

[Host / Moderator]

We'll put it in the intro to this podcast.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah, we'll get that out to you. Make a phone call. Make a phone call. Create a liaison with IceAir in Chicago. Make a phone call. Help us out. Look, I said this before. Law enforcement across the country, the men and women on the front line, the men working on the streets, they support 100% what we're doing. It's the administration. It's ones who work for the mayor or the ones who are elected. Some sheriffs, right? They put politics ahead of public safety. I just can't believe that, that, you know, they took an oath to enforce the laws and protect their communities. And they're not doing that. So call the tip line.

[Ben Shapiro]

866 DHS, two ICE.

[Michael Knowles]

Is that the right one?

[Tom Homan]

Yes, it is. All right.

[Host / Moderator]

866 DHS the number two ice. DHS. 866 DHS, the number two ice.

[Tom Homan]

And I'd give you my number, but I did that one time and I regret that that. Cuz I'm not kidding. I had to shut my phone down.

[Ben Shapiro]

But not even the protesters, they just call and they're like, is this Tom Homan? Cool?

[Tom Homan]

But give us a call and if you get in trouble, let me know. We'll give you a job. Actually, you know, Rochester pd up my home state of New York, you know, some of those officers got in trouble for responding to assistance from ice, and I actually flew up there. I offered him a job. I said, if you want to, you want to be a special agent, let me know. So we're hiring a lot of cops. We're in a lot of people right now, so. Well, prior law enforcement experience is a priority, so we love it.

[Host / Moderator]

NYPD is about to have a mass exodus out of that PD, so. Hi, Mr. Homan. Thank you for all you do. I'm from Minnesota. So what is the status on the Somali deportations in Minneapolis? And realistically, how many can we, you know, get rid of? Because it's kind of been taken over.

[Ben Shapiro]

And is there one specific one too?

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, and let's talk about denaturalization while we're talking about it.

[Tom Homan]

Look, all that's happening, we're looking for criminal Somalis, we're looking for Somalian that weren't vetted properly. We're going to be re vetted if we don't not satisfied with the vetting process. And we think there's a issue with either public safety, national security. They'll be set up for deportation. There is talk of DNATs. Look, we're going to follow the law. The last administration just ignored the law. Vetting was poor. I can't tell you how many BOR Patrol agents called me last four years saying they had to release somebody before vetting came back. And when vetting came back, when the. When that illegal alien was already released, they came back hot from the bureau. So President Trump is going to fix all the terrible things the Biden administration created. And it's a lot of work, but we're going to get it done. So the Twin Cities, all over it. A lot more agents are on the way there. So you're going to see a lot of action up there.

[Host / Moderator]

Tom, I'd be remiss if I didn't give you a chance. This is our first amfest without Charlie. He loved you. You loved him. I just wanted to give you a chance to say. Say whatever, and we can wrap it up.

[Tom Homan]

Sa. Sam.

[Host / Moderator]

Without further ado, the great Michael Knowles.

[Tom Homan]

So much.

[Host / Moderator]

Good to see you. How are you, Michael? You're always looking so dapper, so stop it.

[Tom Homan]

Get out.

[Michael Knowles]

You're gonna. Flattery will get you somewhere. It will get you. I did have this thought. I said yesterday. I was on the main stage, you know, so I had to have my more official Republican blue suit, red tie, you know, But I said this is more the casual day.

[Host / Moderator]

Is that purple?

[Michael Knowles]

It is a purple. I like to call it aubergine, but I. It is purple, in fact.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah.

[Host / Moderator]

All right. So your boss said some crazy stuff last night.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, I don't know who put together the calendar, the schedule of events, but I looked, I said, okay.

[Host / Moderator]

Charlie actually did that. It's actually. This is a. This is a Charlie special. I get. Opening night is basically all Charlie.

[Ben Shapiro]

That's right.

[Michael Knowles]

Right toward the top. We got Ben, then we got Tucker. And I looked, I said, okay, here I am right in the middle. It's kind of like being in the middle of India and Pakistan, in the middle of Iran and Iraq. But it's funny, too. Cause the point of my speech was to say, okay, what did Charlie do? Charlie did a million things. We were just talking about this backstage. Charlie did a million things, right? He debated at the top levels. He fundraised at the top levels. He organized, he campaigned, he did this, that, and the other wrote books. But the distinctive thing that he did was build and maintain Coalitions, often thanklessly, behind the scenes, mediating, negotiating, sorting things out, keeping some people out. You're too kind. Keeping people in, even people in who hate each other's guts. And always moving forward toward a goal. So I get up there and I say, you know, I think my thesis is going to be Blessed are the Peacemakers. This is Charlie's distinctive quality. We need to emulate this Leo Pope.

[Host / Moderator]

Leo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

And then. And then what happens? No one agrees with me, and everyone starts throwing elbows the whole night. I said, okay, well, never mind. I'll be over at the bar.

[Host / Moderator]

The audience liked Russell Brand's Prayer and his whole thing last night, right, you guys? Yeah. They didn't have as high marks for you, but that's okay. That's why you're here. That's why you're here. You're redeeming yourself.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm so glad that you had Russell come in, because, you know, it opens up, Erica gives her beautiful speech, then Ben just starts throwing elbows everywhere. And I said, hold on. And then, you know, Tucker's gonna be punching back at Ben. And I said, I really need Russell to come there. Shirt button down to the navel, you know, I don't know. Talking about some kind of hippie. It was great. I was really. It was a nice palate cleanser.

[Host / Moderator]

It really was. The evening went well, but then, of course, the headlines were, MAGA Civil War, MAGA Mayhem. They were, like, looking for all the M words they could. They could put the Daily Mail in a headline. So what do you make of that? Is this. Is this healthy? Is this destructive? You know, what do you make of it when you think of 2026?

[Michael Knowles]

Look, you know, I mean, I. My. My speech last night was contrary to maybe some of the other ones, which is that I think it's very important to recognize that there's a coalition Charlie built. And maybe you like that he invited some people. Maybe you wish he didn't invite some people in. Maybe you wish he invited people in that he excluded. I don't know. I don't really care. He built a team. This is the team. This is the army. Okay? Everyone here, all of you, this massive gathering of people on the stage and more off the stage. You're on the team, okay? And so the team has a purpose, the team has a goal, and you got to move down the field, and you got to win. And the losers make policy. The winners make policy, and the losers go home. So my view is we don't want to paper over our differences. We're in a period of extreme flux right now. Obviously, we're coming to the end of the Trump era. Trump has dominated. He's been the big dog for 10 years. The heir apparent, obviously, is J.D. vance. So whenever there's a transition like that, there's gonna be a big shift, and all the differences in the factions that have existed for decades are gonna come out and people are gonna vie for a position in their view. My view is we should try to work those out in a way that is productive, that offers grace to people. Because if you take the infighting to its extreme and you say, look, give me what I want, or I'm taking my ball and going home, well, then we lose, and then the left wins. And I guess one of my very practical points in that speech is the left makes no distinction between any of those people on the stage, and they will go after us all together. So we have to win. This was an insight from Charlie that you don't always get from pundits because it's easy to have an opinion, and opinions are interesting, and especially some of the drama online is really interesting and titillating. But Charlie wanted to win, and Charlie did win, and Charlie kept winning. And Charlie insisted upon not just having this great Trump era, but getting the next guy in and building on that and building. And so even these conferences would go from a thousand people or, I don't know, like 50 people to a thousand people, to 5,000 people, to 15,000 people, to now, whatever, 30,000 plus. It's just completely at capacity. We need. We need a bigger convention.

[Ben Shapiro]

We need a bigger convention center.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, that's right. And so I just think you have to keep the focus on winning, not. Yes, sort out your differences, have your fun. Debate club, really, you know, work those issues, but win.

[Host / Moderator]

You know, what's crazy to me is when I see like 18 year old Charlie, you know, like on Neil Cavuto or it's like local Chicago news, and he's like, you know, we've got 15 chapters and he's got the Chicago accent. He's like, and we're going to build an institution and it's going to be.

[Michael Knowles]

You know, was he Al Capone? Hold on. Was he?

[Host / Moderator]

It blows my mind, you know, this first Neil Cavuto hit where he was like, we've been having tremendous success on Twitter and it's been. And I'm like, this is. It's like the guy was just so ahead of me. He was always driven that way. And, you know, so to your point, though, it's Like, I want to, you know, talk about this coalition. We did a thing before you got on here, but you should see it again. And for the folks at home, just take my word for it. So who last night appreciated the Ben Shapiro approach? Hands up. Put my glasses on your glasses.

[Michael Knowles]

Half the room. Probably a little more than half the room.

[Host / Moderator]

Who appreciated the Tucker Carlson approach? Half the room, yeah. 50. 50. So if you wonder why Charlie constructed an opening night the way he did.

[Michael Knowles]

Hey, hold on. You left one who appreciated the Michael Knowles approach. Yeah, that's the whole room. That's.

[Tom Homan]

Look at that. Look at that. Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you.

[Ben Shapiro]

We even get a whoop in there.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

So.

[Host / Moderator]

But when, when we talk about what we are dealing with, I, you, you mentioned that this stuff had been simmering under the, the surface for years. I mean, you could go back to Buckley and the Birchers and it's like some of this stuff is, is as old as time and it's not going to go away.

[Michael Knowles]

Go back to Roosevelt and Taft. I mean, you know, I mean, you.

[Host / Moderator]

Can keep going, but, but when we talk about where this goes and kind of a sifting, a settling, hopefully we come back together. These. You don't expect necessarily some of the fault lines to go away.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, I. Look, I think Ben made a very important point that I think most people would agree with, which is a political coalition has to have boundaries. Not everyone gets to come in, just like not everyone gets to come into the country. Not everyone gets to come into the coalition. So that in principle is true. Where a lot of the Civil War is going to take place is what they're going to. They're going to say, you need to adopt my economic policy or you're not a true conservative. You need to adopt my migration policy, my foreign policy, or you're not a true conservative. That's where those battles have been taking place going back to the 50s and into the 90s, after the Cold War and in the 2000s and to the present. I think that's B.S. and here's my proof that that's B.S. the Republican Party now, I guess, supports tariffs, though some people in the coalition hate that. Previously, for most of my lifetime, the Republican Party hated tariffs. But, but you know what's kind of funny? The Republican Party was founded on tariffs. It was like Abraham Lincoln said, give me a tariff, I'll give you the greatest country in the world. Does that mean, therefore, that we have to support tariffs at any given time or during the. I don't know, the Reagan. Actually Reagan kind of like Tariffs, too. But the Reaganites hated tariffs. Does that mean we have to hate tariffs to be a true conservative? No, because politics involves applying internal principles to constantly changing circumstances. We used to be the party of foreign policy restraint, and then we, you know, like, bomb the whole Middle east and now we're the party of restraint again. Does that, does that tell us some eternal fact about the party? I don't think so. I don't think it's hypocrisy, for instance, to change your economic views to some degree to meet new circumstances. A generation that now can't afford housing, a generation that's being priced out of food. Both issues, by the way, tied to mass migration, which was cheered on by conservatives after the conservatives opposed it. So, no, you can change these things. That's called being responsive. Not being responsive is what caused the left to get completely blown out of the water in the last election because they were so detached from reality that they thought boys could be girls and all the rest of it. We have to be responsive. But I do think there are some non negotiables. So one non negotiable, I would say, and I think Charlie was so clear about this. If you advocate injustice, if you are cruel, if you promote vulgar hatred on the basis of race or sex or religion, you're off the team. You know, it's. That sort of stuff is wrong in itself and it's politically toxic. And I thought, I thought Charlie has done a great job of keeping that riff raff out. After that, things are kind of up for grab. So what, you know, what are the. What are the low bar? What are the. Yes, that's the low bar. Relentless in spirit. You're listening to the Charlie Kirk Show. What are the things that we affirmatively have to believe in? I think you have to love the country. You know, you have to. You have to be like Trump and hug the American flag. Which was. Was that the COVID of the MAGA doctrine by Charlie Kirk? Was that. I seem to remember that when Trump hugged the flag, I love that some people thought it was weird or cheesy or. No, I thought that was so genuine. This guy loves the flag. So if you're the kind of person who doesn't love the country, wants to fundamentally transform the country, to use Obama's words, wants to burn the symbol of the country, you're off my team. What else do you. You have to believe there's a real thing as an American people, and people assimilate into that, just as Ruth assimilates into the Israelites and is in the genealogy of Christ. But there's still Israelites.

[Tom Homan]

Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

There's still, there's still particular nations. There's still an American people. If you don't believe that, if you think America is like just an idea or not an idea, like every idea floating in, if you think it's nothing, you're not on the team. To me, you know, you got to really defend the real American people.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Ben Shapiro]

So we accept there's a few, maybe a tiny number of things that you just exclude on you have ideas.

[Host / Moderator]

We have.

[Ben Shapiro]

That clash between Ben and Tucker last night. Do you believe that they have the same assumptions about those same core things, or is that in conflict at all.

[Michael Knowles]

Between them about unpopular, what the core.

[Ben Shapiro]

Nature of a conservative party in America should be?

[Michael Knowles]

No, they riotously disagree on a number of issues. What's kind of funny, though, as I was listening to their speeches, Ben adopts a more classically liberal approach and Tucker's response and defense also took a classically liberal approach. He said we should judge people as individuals. There should be no restrictions on free speech. And I had this kind of funny thought, which is, I don't think I'm exactly mediating between these two guys because if we debated those fundamental premises, they would probably agree and I would disagree with them. You know, so there are ways in.

[Host / Moderator]

Which you'd be like, so Pat Buchanan.

[Michael Knowles]

Said, Russell Kerr, definitely. Yeah, yeah. And. And so no, they riotously disagree on foreign policy, on economic policy, and they probably agree on immigration, I guess. But no, they disagree. And I think those debates are good. The debates that actually focus on real policy challenges, I think that is good and productive and healthy. And I think those debates are good. The debates that actually focus on real policy challenges, I think that is good and productive and healthy. Look, any and both of these guys condemned the thing that I also condemned anything that gets down to, you know, injustice, hatreds, animosities based on race or religion or whatever. You know, I think that that is so ugly and counterproductive that, that, you know, that.

[Host / Moderator]

Stop trying to bait me into the Catholic debate.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah. And to quote Arthur Schlesinger, the deepest prejudice in American history is anti Catholicism. But, you know, we don't have to get into it.

[Tom Homan]

So.

[Host / Moderator]

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna put you on the spot here just a little bit. You know, you've never done that. They only ask three or four piercing follow up questions. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, listen, you exist at a company that's been at the sort of you know, with Ben, obviously is Jewish, there's been a lot of turns out. I saw the yarmulke myself.

[Michael Knowles]

I did.

[Host / Moderator]

And did you touch it, though? No, I did not. I know better than. So, you know, this is the open question. I was recently on the Ross Douthat podcast, New York Times. Had a great time, really great guy. I love, good interviewer and, you know, he kept trying to get me to go into the Israel debate. And my perspective. Well, who cares about that? You're on the show. Tell us, what is your perspective about what? You know, we're talking about coalitions. What, what do you do with Israel?

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, Israel has been one of the dividing lines, especially for the online right. I think less so for the broader public. Right. But especially for the online right, especially for the young. Right. And I think it's perfectly reasonable that that would come up after this massive Gaza war. Not only the realities of that war, but also the propaganda from both sides of that war that was, you know, but especially anti Israel propaganda. That is a real thing. Obviously it happens in war. So what do we do? I guess I hosted a debate on this actually yesterday on my show, which is should America continue to support Israel? And I guess you have to get even more particular than that. My position on the Gaza war was that the war had to wrap up, that, you know, we have a long standing affection for Israel. Richard Nixon famously saved Israel. Israel would have been Destroyed, destroyed in 73, but he saved Israel. We have, I think we have more culturally and politically in common with, I think that's fair to say, yeah, with Israel than with Israel's enemies. And so I think there is a reason. It's not a deceit, it's not just a fraud. There is a reason that we tend to look more favorably on Israel than on some of Israel's enemies. But it can go too far. I mean, when some people say that we have a religious demand that we must, you know, support the nation, state of Israel in all things, I think that's kind of crazy. When people say that the nation of Israel is the greatest ally that America's ever had, I don't see any evidence of that. You know, it can be a good ally, but, you know, that's such an extreme statement that we must always, you know, stand with Israel, that, you know, we need Israel more than Israel needs us. Some people have said all these things. I think that's just taking the argument too far and it turns people off. Now, on the flip side of that, when people, you know, it's Kind of like when people realize that feminism is wrong and they become misogynists for a period just out of their contrarian nature. You know, to recognize that the relationship with Israel is complex and there are reasons to support Israel, but there are obviously limits around that is not to say that we need to start wearing the kefiyas and marching with Greta Thunberg.

[Tom Homan]

Okay.

[Michael Knowles]

It's not to say that, you know, hey, guys, I know what we can do do. We can form a Christian Islamic alliance and that will lead to a period of world peace. I have about 1400 years of history. I don't know how much time we have on the show today, but about 1400 years history to say that's probably not going to work. And of course, the migrant crisis in Europe and to a lesser degree in America is being driven in no small part by the unassimilability of Islam. So how do we deal with Israel? I thought that Trump's approach to this was quite right, which is that, look, you just want the war to end. You want to have some peace and stability in the region. And what would be best for the American right is not to pick, you know, all or nothing on Israel, but for the importance of Israel to diminish in the minds of right wing voters. It just shouldn't be the top issue. I think for most people, maybe for anybody, that would be my answer. People are going to call that a moderate answer or an unsatisfying answer, because it's either one, we need to be chanting from the river to the sea, you know, the Arabs will be free, or we need to all put on yarmulkes or something. But I don't want to do. I don't want to put on a kefiyeh. I don't want to put on a yarmulke. I want to recognize long standing alliances and be prudent about it.

[Ben Shapiro]

Yeah, It's a thing. Charlie would talk about that. It's just, it would be a very dumb thing to destroy the conservative coalition over our attitude towards what is ultimately a foreign country.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

And just for most people, that is not what matters in your life nearly as much as the economy. Whether you can have a family, whether you own a home, what our immigration policy is. And it's sort of a touch grass thing. Get off, get offline a little bit.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, the notion, gosh. I mean, I have had people kind of young, very online people, but they'll come up to me in public. I'll be in a cigar shop, I'll Be say, what do you think of Israel? I don't think about Israel all that much, if I'm being totally frank about it. But if you want my really boring, dry answer, here you go. You know, here's. Here are the recollections of Richard Nixon. Does that work for you?

[Host / Moderator]

You know, and I think we do a disservice to that debate by. By framing it in a binary. Yeah. You either have to be for or against. And it's like, well, I like them better than the other guys. Okay. You know, Charlie was. Was raging against the Islamification of the West. I mean, I am very sympathetic that the fact that they are surrounded on all sides by people that have oftentimes a very hostile ideology towards them and want them dead. Really. But, you know, there's. I think if we presented more options on the menu that were, you know, that we gave young people say, hey, you don't have to hate these people. You don't have to be anti these people. You don't have to rage against them or scapegoat them or create in them as a boogeyman that will, you know, that is the root of all evils in the world. That there are other options on the table if we simply presented that. But I think what is happening is that you have an older generation that does think in terms of the binary, and they're not really open to that debate. And I think what's happening is you're seeing that ripped and wretched open, and now we can finally have that debate and not, you know.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah.

[Host / Moderator]

You know, that's all Charlie wanted, actually.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes. I think in some ways the way I think about this is it probably puts me on the outs with every. I'm in a bad position right now for the online. Right.

[Host / Moderator]

I'm gonna upset everybody.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm gonna upset everybody for two reasons in particular on these issues. Because I really like Jews and I really like Indians. And the Internet tells me I have to hate Indians and Jews for some reason. I don't know why Indians have got thrown into this, but I. But I really have a H1B that is.

[Ben Shapiro]

That is.

[Michael Knowles]

I do know how the Indians got thrown in.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah.

[Michael Knowles]

But I was thinking this. I'm not even joking. I was thinking of this the other day when I was eating a pastrami and mustard sandwich on rye. I was thinking, you know, I really like the Jews. I say that, but I don't like when. I'm sure you've seen all of these debates, these questions. They say, are you a Zionist? And I say, well, like, literally I'm not because I don't agree with the historical or religious claims of Zionism, because I'm a Catholic.

[Host / Moderator]

I don't know.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm an American Catholic. Like, I just have a different view of religion. And so if the claim is, you know, true religion tells us that this particular nation has an eternal right to this particular plot of dust, I would just say not. I don't really buy that. I kind of take the King Baldwin option, but that's not really on the table right now.

[Host / Moderator]

And the Protestants in the room are really upset about you. The land rights are in the Bible, Knowles, but that's fine.

[Michael Knowles]

Okay, go ahead. So there's that, and then there's the historical argument. Well, you know, the Jews were here for a long time, 2,000 years ago, and so they should be here again. And I think, well, by that same argument, we should turn over the Black Hills to the Lakota Sioux. But I'm not giving them Mount Rushmore. You know, so we don't, we, we don't accept that logic in other contexts. And so I literally don't agree with that. But I also think the Jewish nation came about because the British Empire, which controlled that territory, made a promise to them to give it to them. And then the United nations voted to recognize their nation. And then on top of that, they fought a war of independence and conquest to take that area. So by like every single standard of modern nation states, Israel is a legitimate nation state. And so I say so. I support it in that way. And I have an affection for the Jews, you know, sorry that my answer isn't terribly ideological, but I think the way to deal with this issue, especially as it fractures the right, is to stop being so freaking ideological about it. I hate ideology. I think conservatism in many ways is an anti ideology. You know, we prefer the real to the utopian. We prefer a present laughter to utopian bliss. You know, the, the limited to the unbounded. This is all the kind of conservatism of Michael Oakeshott and other right wing thinkers. And so I just think like, yeah, let's get down to brass tacks. What's your real issue with Israel? You don't want the war in Gaza to go on. I agree. Yeah. I'm glad that wrapped up. Good job, Trump. You know, that was great. We have alliances with all sorts of nations in the world. They're complicated and we navigate them and. Yeah, okay. Anything else? Can I have my pastrami now? Is that fine?

[Ben Shapiro]

We're On. We're on a pretty tight schedule here, so I think we want to get to some questions from people, and we can get hopefully two, three, four of them.

[Host / Moderator]

Yep. Emma. Hi, guys. Been praying for you a lot. Keep doing what you're doing. My dad was born in Tehran, Iran, and He came here 1977 to escape the revolution that happened when Trump banned Muslims. He was one of the first people to say that it was a good thing for the country. And his thing was to say, why can't he. Why couldn't we not ask if they're going to care? Love the country first over Islam? And I think that that seems to be something that people are not realizing. My dad is still a Muslim. I was saved by Jesus Christ nine years ago, and his parents were both Muslim and an atheist, and in hospital, US Accepted Jesus Christ. So he can. He can. He can save any of you. I was an atheist for 24 years, and Jesus can change our life. So I think putting Jesus first is the answer. But with this stuff with immigration, we're seeing such a awful thing happen, and not everyone over there is bad. My dad's proof of that. He's come. He's. He's a Muslim, and he's assimilated, learned English and started a business. So how can. How can we educate people on the horrors that can happen if we ignore this threat?

[Michael Knowles]

I think speaking to Muslims and ex Muslims, but even current kind of moderate Muslims is a good way to do it. I'm not surprised to hear that your family left after the revolution in Iran, because if you want to hear the most trenchant critics of Iran, the people who most desperately want to just light up that country and blow up the mullahs, it is Iranians who left around the revolution. It's so beautiful to hear of your conversion story. You're so right about that. You know, a friend of mine, a Jewish friend of mine, recently converted. I said, wow, what did it? He's very intelligent. I said, was it this argument or this argument? He said, no, I had a mystical experience of Christ. I said, oh, that'll do it. Yeah, that'll probably do it. And then even I spoke to an ex Muslim who has also converted. And, you know, I think hearing those practical stories, this again, this gets back to what we were just talking about. You know, abstraction serves some purpose to clarify things. But when you really want to get down into the brass tacks of politics, which is a practical art, you got to get into real examples, talk to the real people. Talk to the real people who Fled Iran. Talk to real Muslims and ex Muslims. That's going to clarify things a lot more.

[Host / Moderator]

Well, you know, it's interesting, too, is, you know, seeing Trump go through the, you know, the Saudi, the tour through the Middle east, and so many of those countries are. Have done incredible amounts of labor and work politically, militarily, domestically to limit the reach of jihadism, of radical Islam. And so, you know, the fact that we are playing fast and loose with immigration from that region of the world. Here's my thing. You know, Charlie was always very clear about making it macro versus micro Islam. Yeah. On the micro level, there's good Muslims. They are. They're wonderful people. They'll be a great neighbors. They'll work hard, be good citizens.

[Michael Knowles]

Love shawarma. Yeah, I love pastrami and I love shawarma. Does that make me a moderate?

[Host / Moderator]

You're starting to sound like Piers Morgan.

[Michael Knowles]

Curry. Curry. Which is English, by the way.

[Host / Moderator]

But one last thing here, though, is that my point with importing Islam is that you might say you import 10,000 of them. You just need one that gets radicalized and then goes and drives through a market or detonates a device or something like that. And my point is, the more you bring in, the more you're going to have of that. We have seen this now, historically play out. So why play. Why. Why play fast and loose with it at all? You know, and you said, put Christ first. I'm on the team of. We should probably do that with immigration, too. Just so. Just so.

[Tom Homan]

We're.

[Host / Moderator]

I mean, this. We assimilate Christians in this country very well. Why don't we just start there?

[Michael Knowles]

I mean, this, by the way, this goes back to the founding. John Adams wrote this to Thomas Jefferson, that the principles of Christianity are the principles on which the revolution was wonderful. John Jay writes this in the Federalist Papers. He says, I thank God for the Providence, that we come from a common people with a common experience of the revolution, with a common religion. And so it's not that we, you know, Washington writes his letter to the Jews. He doesn't write a letter to the Shiites, I notice, but he writes a letter to the Jews. And we do have a. They even tolerated some Catholics every now and again. Obviously, we have a history of toleration, but, you know, we gotta be practical about it. A little bit of spice flavors the melting pot, but you don't want to pour in whatever that Somali dish that Jacob Fry tried to choke down the other day.

[Ben Shapiro]

Let's get another question or two here.

[Host / Moderator]

Oh, over there. Hi, Michael.

[Michael Knowles]

My name is Brody.

[Host / Moderator]

I'm 16.

[Tom Homan]

My mom and I wanted to know.

[Michael Knowles]

What you were doing when you were.

[Host / Moderator]

16 and what advice you had for someone that might want to get into.

[Michael Knowles]

Politics when they're older. Great question. I was a political junkie as a kid, going back to when I was six, actually, even earlier. I remember the Bob dole election in 1990. I was like the only. I was the most excited about Bob Dole winning, including Bob Dole and I. So I did. So I was into that. I was doing student government, class president, all that stuff. When I was 16, I was also smoking cigars. I started doing that at 15. I'm not recommending. I'm not not recommending, but I'm not. Legally, I'm not allowed to recommend.

[Host / Moderator]

But contractually you only got one company pitch for your cigar company.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, I know. Everyone else I gotta pay for, but I was civically engaged and I would recommend starting in those small and local ways. The great counterexample to this is of course our pal Charlie, who decided that he was gonna be on the fast track to president. At 18.

[Host / Moderator]

He got involved in local campaigning in Chicago a lot. And so I totally agree with you on that.

[Michael Knowles]

You gotta start a little local. And I would recommend not getting famous at 16. I think there's a real impulse, especially for zoomers who are raised on the Internet, basically weaned on TikTok. You don't want to get famous before you're really formed, before you really have something to say and to do. So I would recommend, on the one hand, get that practical experience that you can't get from books out of student government, school board elections, maybe even a congressional helping out interning. But then also read, immerse yourself in history and political philosophy and really take the opportunity to be a kid, albeit a precocious kid, and to have a real education that's going to set you up in a much stronger way to be then seriously involved in politics. And then you're not running for class president. Maybe you're running for president. President.

[Ben Shapiro]

I know, it stinks. I think we only have time for one more probably. All right, well, let's get another one. Let's see how fast it goes.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Hi, my name is Katie. I have the honor of serving as president of our Turning Point chapter at the University of Cincinnati. I would.

[Tom Homan]

Thank you.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

I would love your advice on two issues I'm seeing. First, we have a lot of students who want to get involved but are afraid, and that stops them from coming to meetings and Second, we have a ton of students who want to know so much more about Christ, but they don't want to talk about that nearly as much as they want to talk about politics. So how can I best reach both of these groups?

[Michael Knowles]

You guys run Turning Point. I just. I just show up every now and again. You take that they showed up, you though, that's fair enough. Okay, that's fine. I would say you should embrace the fact that they are drawn to these two things and not even push against the fact that they find politics more titillating. Maybe recognize that politics has something to say about religion, and religion certainly has something to say about politics. There has been an impulse in American Christianity for a long time to try to divorce the two and to say the politics is icky and we shouldn't play with it. And, you know, Christianity is something totally different. You know, Christ is incarnate in history. That's what we're about to commemorate. He'll be incarnate. He'll return again, by the way, in the second coming. And he is born into an empire. And that's significant because he's born into the Roman Empire, which claims the right to tax the whole world, which is a recognition that the civil authority has jurisdiction over the whole world, which means that the Passion and the crucifixion of Christ saves the whole world. You know, the historical and the political tells us something about the religious truth and vice versa. And of course, St. Paul tells us the civil authority is there for our own good, as given by God, and doesn't bear the sword in vain. So I would just say don't try to split them apart or say, you want to talk about politics, let's only talk about religion. Maybe recognize that this is an integral hold because. Because Christ is the God, not just of your church or some other church, he's the God of the whole cosmos, which means he's even the God of politics. The hardest working radio show in the business, the Charlie Kirk Show. I think we have time for one more.

[Host / Moderator]

Okay, I just want to add one other point to this, is that Charlie became an expert at integrating his faith into political answers. But he started by being able to give you a political answer to any political question without bringing in politics. So he spent a long time sharpening his arguments without politics at all. And then as he got older, he started just. Just incorporating them. But you get really good at the logic, with or without. First thing I would say. And then, you know, to. To Michael's point, it's like politics can be the door, doorway in. But Charlie used to always say that those who drink from the streams of liberty will eventually find its source. We believe that's Christ. And so you may not know the order through which, which door they're going to walk in first and just be open. Listen to the spirit prayerfully and you'll get there.

[Tom Homan]

Yep.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right, two minutes. We have two minutes.

[Michael Knowles]

Two minutes. Fast question, real quick.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Hi, guys. My name is Jamie. I'm from the state of California. I don't know if I should be.

[Host / Moderator]

A beautiful state.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

It is a beautiful state. My family and I were so blessed to be here last year in this room, actually. We saw the great back and forth, the friendly banter that Michael, you and Charlie had last year about Catholicism and Christianity. And that brings me to. I came with my family, like I said. I have my 11 year old and my 13 year old here. They were here last year as well. And my question for you is they've. My 13 year old will be going into high school next year. We've preyed on it a lot. Unfortunately, it's. It's kind of out of our scope right now to put him in a private high school. So he will be going into public school next year. He's been in private school from kindergarten through eighth grade. So I wanted to ask the three of you, really, words of encouragement, words of wisdom that you can give to just not just my son. We actually brought five kids with us ranging from seven year olds at 13.

[Michael Knowles]

Now we're talking.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

So we'd love to hear what you guys have for them. Thank you.

[Michael Knowles]

First, how many kids did you say?

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Five.

[Michael Knowles]

Five. So Mormon, Catholic or Orthodox?

[Tom Homan]

Jewish.

[Michael Knowles]

So I would just say don't try to split them apart or say, you want to talk about politics, let's only talk about religion. Maybe recognize that this is an integral whole because Christ is the God, not just of your church or some other church. He's the God of the whole cosmos, which means he's even the God of politics.

[Ben Shapiro]

I think we have time for one more.

[Host / Moderator]

Okay. I just want to add one other point to this, is that Charlie became an expert at integrating his faith into political answers. But he started by being able to give you a political answer to any political question without. Without bringing in politics. So he spent a long time sharpening his arguments without politics at all. And then as he got older, he started just, just incorporating them. But you get really good at the logic with or without. First thing I would say, and then, you know, to, to Michael's point, it's like politics can be the doorway in. But Charlie used to always say that those who drink from the streams of liberty will eventually find its source. We move, we believe that's Christ. And so it. You may not know the order through which, which door they're going to walk in first and just be open, listen to the spirit prayerfully and you'll get there.

[Tom Homan]

Yep.

[Host / Moderator]

Yeah.

[Ben Shapiro]

All right. Two minutes. We have two minutes.

[Michael Knowles]

Two minutes. Fast question.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Be real quick.

[Tom Homan]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Hi, guys. My name's Jamie. I'm from the state of California. I don't know if I should. Beautiful state. It is a beautiful state. My family and I were so blessed to be here last year in this room, actually. We saw the great back and forth, the friendly banter that Michael, you and Charlie had last year about Catholicism and Christianity. And that brings me to. I came with my family, like I said, I have my 11 year old and my 13 year old here. They were here last year as well. And my question for you is they've. My 13 year old will be going into high school next year. We prayed on it a lot. Unfortunately, it's. It's kind of out of our scope right now to put him in a private high school. So he will be going into a public school next year. He's been in private school from kindergarten through eighth grade. So I wanted to ask the three of you, really, words of encouragement, words of wisdom that you can give to just. Not just my son. We actually brought five kids with us ranging from seven year olds to 13.

[Michael Knowles]

Now we're talking, so.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

So would love to hear what you guys have for them. Thank you.

[Michael Knowles]

First, how many kids did you say?

[Audience Member / Questioner]

Five.

[Michael Knowles]

Five. So Mormon, Catholic or Orthodox Jew?

[Audience Member / Questioner]

We are actually here with three families. The four, it's me and my husband and my, my 11 year old and 13 year old are here for the second time. We actually brought two other families with us this year that we're so excited just to really hear of what Charlie left. And I saw, I will say this in this room, the words of wisdom with Charlie. Oh, I'm gonna get. I saw firsthand the impact that Charlie had on these kids.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Audience Member / Questioner]

My 11 year old came up to me the night that he was shot and he put his. His head in my lap when Erica was speaking and he's like, why did this happen? So I just want to say that we miss Charlie so much and I got to meet Daisy. Thank you so much for what you've done. So anyway, a didn't expect to cry, but we just. It's Happy. We know Charlie's here. We feel his presence. But anything you guys can give us on closing out, especially to this young youth that really is looking for some words of wisdom.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, I would say on the very practical school point, you know, happily, you've given your kid a great formation. Even like with William F. Buckley, Jr. Great American Conservative. He was homeschooled through eighth grade. You know, he had that, and then he went to whatever other school. And so you really. That's the formation that period, right up until the teenage years, you've done such a great job of making that really solid that I think you can have reasonable confidence that the teachers won't screw it up too much in the public school. But you have to keep an eye. I would say you have to keep a real eye on it. The reason homeschooling spiked during COVID is because kids went home, they looked at what their teachers, the parents looked at what the teachers were telling the kids over the computer screen, and they yanked their kids out of schools because they said, this is insane and it's poison. So you have to be very responsive to that. It sounds, though, from your story about Charlie, obviously, all of us are. You know, this is a big one. This is the last event that Charlie directly left us. That dawned on me yesterday when I was coming in here and, you know, his pictures all over and, you know, yeah, this is a particular America. It's always growing, it's always big. It's always spirit filled, and this one in particular. So we're all kind of working through that a little bit and, you know, living that. The fact that your kid would have that reaction to this event tells you he's in a good spot. I think he's going to be all right.

[Ben Shapiro]

Now, we still have a lot of. Of course, if they want encouragement on the other practical things, there's a lot of videos of Charlie arguing with liberals in schools. They can still watch those. That's true. And I guess because people like that. To close on a pedantic religious point, our. Would they be allowed to pray for Charlie's intercession on their behalf, or is that not allowed unless he's canonized?

[Michael Knowles]

He's not formally canonized yet, although there was a bishop who. I forget which bishop it was who said that Charlie was almost certainly a martyr, a martyr for the faith, though he's not the Pope. And I guess we'll have to save the pope debate for the next one.

[Host / Moderator]

Everybody, Michael Knowles.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you, everybody. Thank you so much. Thank you.

[Tom Homan]

It.

[Michael Knowles]

This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.