Turning Point Tonight with Jobob | October 22nd, 2025

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Turning Point Tonight with Jobob | October 22, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode of Turning Point Tonight is a special event recorded at Indiana University, featuring host Joe Bob, a tribute to the late Charlie Kirk, and an extended Q&A with guest speaker Tucker Carlson. The core themes revolve around coalition-building within the conservative movement, the challenges of maintaining unity after Charlie Kirk’s death, concerns about free speech and “wokeism,” U.S. foreign policy, and the impact of powerful institutions and individuals on American politics and culture.

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Main Themes & Key Segments

1. Remembering Charlie Kirk and the Power of Laughter

[03:45–06:49]

• Joe Bob opens with humor, reflecting on his time touring with Charlie Kirk and the initial skepticism about pairing a comedian with a political commentator.

• He shares anecdotes illustrating Charlie’s belief in the importance of precision and responsibility in language and how laughter is an effective weapon, referencing Mark Twain.

• A behind-the-scenes look at an attempted Turning Point USA roundtable podcast—highlighting why it “didn’t work” due to a diversity of ideologies that, paradoxically, underscores the conservative coalition’s strength.

  “The human race has only one really effective weapon and that’s laughter. And even though he was known for his logic and reason, nobody understood the power of laughter better than Charlie.”
  — Joe Bob [03:09]

  “Charlie, no matter how ridiculous the question, was always precise with his language… he was always intentional with everything that he said.”
  — Joe Bob [09:43]

Notable Moment

• Joe Bob describes a comical but telling exchange about whether washing dishes is “gay,” using it to reinforce Charlie’s habit of careful speech even in absurd moments.

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2. Conservative Diversity and Coalition-Building

[11:00–14:00]

• Joe Bob discusses the challenge and value of different factions within conservatism and how Charlie Kirk fostered a coalition of “variety in ideas.”

• He contrasts the perceived conformity in progressive circles to the ideational diversity among conservatives, illustrating with a humorous anecdote involving his daughter and the concept of “diversity.”

  “Being a part of the conservative movement doesn’t mean you have a single track mind… the conservative movement has a lot of different elements to it.”
  — Joe Bob [10:56]

  “Charlie Kirk was a champion of diversity… not diversity in the same way that the libs talk about it. Because diversity, the way libs talk about it is just difference without necessarily having a distinction.”
  — Joe Bob [12:26]

• He closes his segment with three directives: fight for truth, freedom, and the country, encouraging students to honor Charlie’s legacy by being the best version of themselves.

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3. Tucker Carlson Q&A—Conservative Unity After Charlie Kirk

[22:07–26:31]

• Tucker Carlson is introduced for a live audience Q&A.

• First question addresses concern over Republican fracturing post-Charlie Kirk, especially on foreign policy.

  “The country really benefited from Charlie Kirk, and benefited for that specific reason… his ability to bring people together who had most things in common, but not everything.”
  — Tucker Carlson [23:00]

• Tucker laments the loss of Charlie’s emotional self-control and coalition-building skills, citing increased divisiveness within the right and warning that “the worst people in the world are gonna benefit if the fracture remains.”

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4. Healthy Skepticism Toward U.S. Foreign Policy and the "Deep State"

[30:28–39:06]

• A student asks about similarities in U.S. foreign policy between recent administrations and whether “the government actually wants wars to end.”

• Tucker lays out his view on the five pillars of MAGA (America First, No Pointless Wars, Bringing Jobs Back, Immigration Control, Free Speech), emphasizing “no pointless wars” as central.

• He criticizes continued U.S. involvement in Ukraine, denounces Zelensky, and warns of globalist influences.

  “No pointless wars, period. And by pointless, I mean wars fought on behalf of an ideology or another nation are totally unacceptable. They weaken this country.”
  — Tucker Carlson [33:04]

  “You don’t want to live in a country controlled by people whose names you don't know, who work for agencies whose funding is secret.”
  — Tucker Carlson [39:02]

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5. On Free Speech, Wokeism, and Power Dynamics

[47:10–55:12]

• A lengthy exchange between Tucker and a student who seeks a clearer definition of “woke,” the power dynamics involved, and critiques of how powerful donors influence both left and right causes.

• Tucker argues that “woke” is essentially a mechanism by which the powerful use identity groups to silence dissent, funded by wealthy interests—the Human Rights Campaign, BLM, and even rightward organizations like Heritage.

  “At its core, WOKE is an attempt by the powerful to make the less powerful shut up. All efforts to stifle speech come from the powerful, not the powerless.”
  — Tucker Carlson [48:00]

  “The people who fund them are not the least powerful… funded by billionaires, all of them. BLM. The BLM riots were funded by Apple and Facebook. All the biggest actors in corporate America fund these organizations which have the effect of getting people fired from their jobs or shamed into silence.”
  — Tucker Carlson [51:18]

Pushback and Nuance

• The student presses Tucker on wealthy donors like Elon Musk supporting Trump and undue influence on both sides. Tucker concedes:

  "I would say people who have billions of dollars have undue influence over our society. Amen, sister."
  — Tucker Carlson [55:12]

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6. Free Speech, Protest, and Presidential Conduct

[58:18–62:35]

• The discussion continues on the line between free expression and suppressing dissent, as the student challenges Trump’s use of social media to mock protesters.

• Tucker distinguishes between mockery and actual abridgment of rights, points to real dangers being job loss or legal force, and critiques both parties’ excesses.

  “Criticizing somebody is not the same as committing violence against them or preventing them from speaking. That is not true… I would argue [job loss] is a meaningful attempt to stifle speech.”
  — Tucker Carlson [61:22]

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7. Reflections on Media, Disinformation, and Cross-Partisanship

[62:35–End]

• A question leads Tucker to address accusations of disinformation at Fox News. He insists he was not directed by management, expresses general skepticism about modern media, and offers self-deprecating humor about his past on CNN and Fox.

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8. Spiritual Views on Aliens

[40:02–43:41]

• A lighter question on aliens elicits Carlson’s belief that “aliens” are spiritual entities and not extraterrestrial in the physical sense.

• He connects a decline in American spirituality to the hubris of the atomic age, reiterating that denying the spiritual realm is an anomaly of the modern West.

  “My conclusion is that they are the spiritual entities that are described well in the Old Testament… To someone living even 100 years ago, the idea that these are, of course, angels, demons, manifestations of a spiritual battle ongoing since the beginning of time, that would have been obvious.”
  — Tucker Carlson [40:15–43:41]

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Notable Quotes

• “The answer to this question was, ‘I haven’t thought about it deeply.’ Yeah, dude, we know, we know.”
  — Joe Bob [09:43] (on Charlie Kirk’s precise language)

• “You don’t have to hate people just because they don’t worship Bibi or something like that. That shouldn’t be the make or break issue.”
  — Tucker Carlson [25:36] (on Israel and coalition fractures)

• “America’s being replaced by people from other countries... It's a mathematical reality. And stop it now.”
  — Tucker Carlson [34:14] (on immigration)

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Timestamps by Segment

• [03:45] – Joe Bob begins his tribute with jokes and personal stories about Charlie Kirk.
• [06:49] – Podcast roundtable anecdote and lessons about coalition-building.
• [10:56] – Conservative diversity and "championing diversity" vs. progressive conformity.
• [17:17] – Event transitions to Tucker Carlson Q&A.
• [22:07] – Tucker begins, is asked about maintaining unity without Charlie.
• [30:28] – Foreign policy frustrations and the pillars of MAGA.
• [39:06] – Discussion of the “deep state” and government agencies.
• [40:02] – Tucker’s perspective on aliens as spiritual entities.
• [47:10] – “Woke,” free speech, and power dynamics.
• [58:18] – Trump, protest, and free speech boundaries.
• [62:35] – Disinformation, media experience, and self-reflection.

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Memorable Moments

• Joe Bob humorously reflecting on “touring with Charlie as his opening act” and how laughter was central to their outreach [03:09].
• The lively, pointed, and respectful back-and-forth between Tucker and student questioners on identity politics, speech suppression, and billionaire influence on all sides [47:10–55:12].
• Tucker’s summary of “the five pillars of MAGA” and critique of American foreign policy [33:04].
• Philosophical digression connecting American cultural decline to loss of faith after Hiroshima [40:15–43:41].

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Conclusion

This event-style episode blends humor with serious cultural and political analysis. It serves as a tribute to Charlie Kirk’s coalition-building while delving into the ongoing frictions in conservative politics, free speech, and the influence of power—both left and right. Through an engaging Q&A, Tucker Carlson provides pointed, sometimes contrarian, opinions on “wokeism,” foreign policy, and the state of American culture, while taking time to self-deprecate and find common ground with even his fiercest critics.

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For those who missed the episode, this summary captures the heart of the conversation, key arguments, and standout moments—offering insight into the current conservative climate and the enduring influence of Charlie Kirk on the movement.

Transcript

[Audience Member]

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Time is precious and so are our pets. So time with our pets is extra precious. That's why we started Dutch. Dutch provides 24. 7 access to license licensed vets with unlimited virtual visits and follow ups for up to five pets. You can message a vet at any time and schedule a video visit the same day. Our vets can even prescribe medication for many ailments and shipping is always free. With Dutch you'll get more time with your pets and year round peace of mind when it comes to their vet care. Good evening and welcome to Turning Point tonight where together we are charting the course of America's cultural comeback. Tonight we're recording this video which is not necessarily an ordinary thing that we do. But from the University of Indiana, very excited. Tucker Carlson will be here. You're going to see the re air of this fantastic event. Here's our Turning Point team on campus. And I know this is a little bit unconventional, but it's a good time. Hope you enjoy the event. We will see you tomorrow, same time, same place. God bless America. That's too good, Joe Bob. That's too good. I got to tour with Charlie as his opening act. Lasts three years. I think initially some people might have found it odd that Charlie Kirk was bringing a comedian on the road with him. But also I don't think he people realized how much Charlie loved to laugh. Mark Twain once said, the human race has only one really effective weapon and that's laughter. And even though he was known for his logic and reason, nobody understood the power of laughter better than Charlie. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome comedian, Turning Point contributor and host of Turning Point tonight, Joe Bob.

[Commercial Narrator]

Joe Bob.

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Joe Bob.

[Douglas Murray]

Joe Bob.

[Advertisement Voice]

Joe Bob. Joe Bob. Joe Bob.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

Joe Bob.

[Host/Interviewer]

Joe Bob. What is going on?

[Douglas Murray]

IU.

[Host/Interviewer]

6 of 10. We could try that again. What is going on? IU.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

I'm so excited to be here with you. I obviously wish it was under better circumstances, but even with those circumstances, what they are, I can tell you definitively and confidently, Charlie would be so proud that each and every one of you filled this place place to the rafters for the longest running. Actual no Kings protest. Why don't you guys go hit a round applause for yourself?

[Advertisement Voice]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

What a weird weekend that was. You got a bunch of overweight blue haired sociology majors parading around town protesting against a king we don't have. It's really interesting. One of the things that Charlie used to say so often was be precise with your language, be precise and be responsible with everything that you say. I found out over the weekend that the libs do the exact opposite of that. They are not precise, they're not responsible. We've all seen that. And what I thought was super interesting is it's really not even what you say. It's also like how you say it. Like if I went to the no Kings protest, I'm like, that's Jimmy. He's queer. They would all cheer and celebrate, Hooray, Jimmy. If I said the same exact thing in a different tone, that's Jimmy. He's a queer. Now I'm in trouble. So guess I want to elaborate a little bit more on the precise angle that Charlie talked about so often and what I've been doing on these tours is kind of telling some behind the scenes stories of what it was like working with Charlie in hopes of illuminating the kind of guy that he was and the mission that he was on a while ago. So Turning Point has a bunch of different contributors and we all do different things. You've got people who are rappers. You've got people who do the pop culture thing. Obviously you had Charlie who do the debates and the logic and the reason. And it was a very good idea. But at a certain time, the top brass at Turning Point figured out we should do like a roundtable discussion, like a long form podcast where we bring our contributors and we just kind of have a free flowing discussion. And so that was the initiative.

[Commercial Narrator]

And.

[Host/Interviewer]

And I was chosen, along with Turning Point contributor, Alex Clark. Yeah, Alex. To sit down with Charlie and do this round table. I want to show you a picture of that right here. Hopefully you can see it. The angle does not make me look great. Someone decided, hey, let's put the shorter guy in the biggest chair. And then Charlie, who I'm pretty sure is about 9ft tall, in the smallest chair closest to the camera. I look like I'm in like a wheelchair from the 1940s. And like, meeting Charlie Kirk was like my make a wish. So we had these roundtable discussions and we got a few good clips from. From them. We did three of these with Charlie, Alex, and myself. And some of the clips were actually pretty fun. Alex and I pushed a conspiracy theory that mattress firm, the mattress store, is laundering money for the cartel. Charlie had absolutely none of it. Charlie told a story about how his team took his Twitter account away.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

For.

[Host/Interviewer]

His own brand protection. But overall, nobody saw the entire conversation because it didn't work, which is something I'd like to hit on. If we had put this entire conversation out, it would have been as successful as Kamala Harris's presidential campaign or her sobriety. But these things went off the rails so fast and so hard. Joe Biden might have actually visited some of you got that one.

[Douglas Murray]

Good.

[Host/Interviewer]

But it didn't work for a lot of different reasons. And most of those were because you had three people who were in the conservative movement but so far apart from each other that it made it difficult to kind of get a cohesive message together. The conversations went all over the place. You have Charlie talking about the teleological dissemmetries between Nietzsche and Aristotle. Alex Clark is talking about who wore what at the Met gala. And I can't stop making trans jokes the whole time. And so even though There are great clips. The broader conversation just. Just didn't really work. Let me give you an example of something that happened. In kind of a lull in the conversation. Alex Clark turns to Charlie and asks, if men wash dishes, does that make them gay? And Charlie looked up and was thinking and was thinking and thinking, and all the while, I'm watching the producers in the back of the cameras starting soon, sweating bullets like, oh, my gosh, what is he going to answer to this? So Charlie gets asked, is washing dishes gay? And he says, well, everything is gay if you go to Purdue. He didn't say that. He didn't say that. He didn't say that. I got to stop ribbing the rivalry schools because for all I know, we're going to be at Purdue next semester. I'm going to have to explain that one. But he's thinking, and all of a sudden he says, I haven't thought about that deeply. And Alex is like, well, do you wash dishes at home? And Charlie said, yeah, I wash dishes at home. And I say, queer. I didn't say that either. But there's two different things that I think are very important in order to take away from that ridiculous interaction on those roundtables. The first of which goes back to the first point that Charlie, no matter how ridiculous the question, was always precise with his language. He was always intentional with everything that he said. Remember, the answer to this question was, I haven't thought about it deeply. Yeah, dude, we know, we know. You didn't think of the sexuality of people washing dishes in the kitchen deeply. That's not something I would expect. But still, even when posed a ridiculous question, Charlie thought, what is the most impactful thing I could say in spite of this insane question? The second thing that I thought was really, really interesting and kind of indicative of why these things didn't work is there are platforms and their outlets that have their talent or their contributors all on a panel, and they talk and they have a flowing conversation. And the reason that this didn't work at Turning Point usa, I actually think is a feature and not a bug. The reason that it didn't entirely work for the podcast in the long form is because you had people who were in the conservative movement, but coming from so many different angles that it was hard to coalesce and come around a regular, normal person conversation. You had Alex Clark talking about pop culture. You've got one of the smartest people in the world sitting opposite of her. And then you have Charlie Kirk. No, I'm kidding. No. Charlie's the smart guy. But in total, the conversation didn't really work. And like I said, that's a feature, not a bug. Because as we all noticed, the conservative movement has a lot of different elements to it. Being a part of the conservative movement doesn't mean you have a single track mind. It doesn't mean that you all agree with one thing. I want to pull up a graph. Oh, that's still up there. Great. Can we pull up that graph? This is from a British study talking about the variety in ideas on the conservative side of the aisle. And on the lib side of the aisle, if you'll notice, the lib side, if you don't believe in politic, Chinese trans amputees, you are outcast because you only have a small granular space of which you can operate in. But on the conservative side of the aisle, we have a lot of variety. And I think that's what Charlie really understood better than anywhere else, anyone else. Variety was key to building the conservative movement and building the conservative coalition. We could probably trigger some libs by saying something technically true. It is accurate to say that Charlie Kirk was a champion of diversity. Yeah, we could cheer for that and not diversity in the same way that the libs talk about it. Because diversity, the way libs talk about it is just difference without necessarily having a distinction. They look at race and think that that is actually diversity. I'll tell you what, my two year old daughter can look at race and figure out people are different. And when we have friends over that are that happen to be black, you know how 2 year olds don't have any sort of filter, she'll run up to me and say, daddy, daddy, daddy. They are loud. Just don't worry, it's going to be okay. She can also tell the difference between white people too. She says, daddy, daddy, daddy. They have a gluten allergy. But the bottom line is diversity. The way that libs portray it is the dumbest, most idiotic form of diversity that there is. Judging people by their race is in fact racist. And yet the libs throw that accusation against us. But in reality, the conservative movement has a diverse array of ideas that don't necessarily align. Not everybody agrees on everything, but the core tenets of the conservative values are maintained. And because of that, people like Charlie were able to foster variety of ideas. And that, I think is the mission that we need to continue as the conservative movement. Yes. Yeah. You know, over the course of the three years that I was able to tour with Charlie, people would come up and students would come up and say hello. And they'd say, I really want to get involved in Turning Point. You know, what can I do? And I said, well, what do you want to do specifically? Specifically. And so often the answer was, I want to be the next Charlie Kirk. And while I think I understand the sentiment behind that and I think Charlie would, too. It's great to be admired. I think he actually might phrase it a little bit differently because Charlie was able to foster variety within the conservative movement. He would say, rather than trying to be a version of somebody else, how about instead try to be the best version of you that you can be? Yes. Because ultimately that is what is going to make up the conservative coalition. Ultimately, each and every one of us being the best version of ourselves that we can be is going to do the most in honoring Charlie's legacy. Can you guys do that? Yeah. So I always used to close these with giving three different directions, direction directives that I'd like to leave with you here. And that is one. Never stop fighting for truth. Yes. Never stop fighting for freedom. Yes. And never stop fighting for this country. Yes. Iu. Thank you guys so much. It's going to be a fantastic evening. God bless America. Thank you. Thank you, guys.

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[Douglas Murray]

Thank you for having me. I am grateful to be here. I always, I always envied Charlie first going on college campuses, which I haven't really visited since I left College in shame 35 years ago. But I love the idea of people being able to ask any question they want. And I just have spent my life giving a ton of speeches and taking relatively few questions. So I am grateful I'm the beneficiary of this. So without further ado, I just want to take questions. I can speak forever. If you ever had dinner with me, you know that I could probably speak for three hours. And another thing, but I would. I would much rather hear what you think. And I should also say, by the way, my, my wife left for the week to visit one of our children and I had the dogs and so I guess I need a household staff. But anyway, I thought we were in Maine this morning. I said, you guys want to go to Indiana?

[Commercial Narrator]

Okay.

[Douglas Murray]

So they came. So I hope they won't be a distraction. But they're very nice.

[Audience Member]

Nice.

[Douglas Murray]

We hunted this morning, actually. They're great, great dogs. So the one thing I've been asked to say is that disagreements Take priority and Turning Point will help bring you to the front of the line, whatever that means. So without further ado, please hit me with your questions. You can't hurt my feelings. I will answer as honestly as I possibly can and as cheerfully as I can. And, you know, feel no need to be cheerful to me, but I will be to you. So, first question.

[Host/Interviewer]

Tucker, this is awesome. Thank you for being here.

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, man. Thank you for having me.

[Host/Interviewer]

Big fan. Here's my question. So one of Charlie's gifts was bringing the different factions of the right together under one movement. Supporting maga, supporting Maha, and helped to get Trump across the finish line as well. As, you know, I know Charlie and you both work to get JD up there, which is amazing. 48. Let's go. How do we keep that without Charlie? We're already seeing the Republicans. Let's battle over group chat. Let's battle over foreign policy. And it's like they don't want to keep. Keep together what Charlie built.

[Douglas Murray]

I strongly agree with that. And it was about maybe 24 hours after he was murdered that I, you know, I was obviously close to him, and I was so emotional about his death and so sad for Erica and the children that it took about a day to realize the political implications of this, which are real. They're not paramount. They're not the most important thing. The most important thing is Erica and his son and daughter. But, you know, the country really benefited from Charlie Kirk, and benefited for that specific reason that you articulated so well, his ability to bring people together who had most things in common, but not everything. That ecumenical spirit, which was really necessary. I don't have that. I mean, I'm a completely alienating person. Like, people like me or hate me. You know, it's like, I wish I wasn't that way, but I am. Charlie wasn't. And he could hear people who had views that weren't precisely his and say, you know, I think I know what you're saying, or I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and we agree enough that we should be together on this. And I don't know who can do that. It's very obvious to me that the Republican coalition is fracturing over foreign policy, Israel specifically. And it's such a shame. It's such a shame. I mean, I obviously have strong views on this, which I've articulated and made myself even more hated. But it's not the only thing I care about. It's the only thing its advocates care about, that's for sure, which is really a Shame, you know, But I would say on most things, the people I've battled with, Mark Levin or whatever.

[Audience Member]

You.

[Douglas Murray]

Know, I agree with Mark Levin in a lot. I do. I don't know. I mean, I'm very pro family, I'm passionately pro life. I think he is also good. Like it would be worth being united on those things, but. And I'm not passing the buck. I mean, I think there a lot of us are more divisive, including me, are more divisive or hot headed than we need to be. Charlie had a lot of emotional self control, which he was, you know, 20 years younger than me and I admired that openly and I told him so. So you have control over your own emotions. You take proverbs seriously. Control your emotions. That's always been a struggle for me. That's a prerequisite for bringing people together is curbing your tongue, not saying sharp things that you could say. But I do, so I'm not passing the buck. We're all at fault. And the worst people in the world are gonna benefit from this if the fracture remains. But I will say that on the foreign policy question, the advocates, on the other advocates of neocon foreign policy literally only care about that from what I can tell. And I would just urge them to, you know, broaden your concerns a little bit. Yes, I understand your emotional connection, I get it and I'm willing to make allowances for it. But you know, slow down a little bit. You don't have to hate people just because they don't worship Bibi or something like that. That shouldn't be the make or break issue. It's a foreign head of state, like settle down and hopefully they will. Hopefully they will. And I do think when 7 million people take to the streets as they did last weekend, I know they were all like elderly boomers and everyone's laughing at them, but that's a lot of people. And that suggests a very high level of organization and coordination that's formidable. That's not a joke at all. And I'm not laughing at that. I think it's totally real. And those people do not share my values at all. Like, at all. And some of them, not all, probably not most, but some of them are scary. I don't want those people in charge again. I saw what happened last time. So like, think big picture for a second. You know what I mean?

[Host/Interviewer]

Awesome. Thank you so much, Doug.

[Douglas Murray]

Thanks.

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[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

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[Commercial Narrator]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked why Benghazi?

[Douglas Murray]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Commercial Narrator]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Douglas Murray]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Commercial Narrator]

Bad faith, political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

[Douglas Murray]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

[Commercial Narrator]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Host/Interviewer]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything.

[Douglas Murray]

That'S been going on for the last 20 years.

[Commercial Narrator]

Leon I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Host/Interviewer]

What difference at this point does it make yes, that's right.

[Douglas Murray]

Lock her up.

[Commercial Narrator]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Host/Interviewer]

Hey, Tucker. Great to speak to you.

[Douglas Murray]

Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Great state of Indiana. Let's go, Hoosiers. Let's go, Hoosiers.

[Douglas Murray]

Wait, wait. I'm sorry. I can't let that pass. Before we endorse the Hoosiers, can you explain what a Hoosier is?

[Host/Interviewer]

No clue. I'm Fort Lauderdale.

[Douglas Murray]

You're not alone, by the way. Nobody in Indiana knows what a Hoosier is because there's no definition of it. To which I say, go Hoosiers.

[Host/Interviewer]

So I had a big kind of question here.

[Douglas Murray]

I like the big ones. Hit me, baby.

[Host/Interviewer]

So I kind of just don't see a lot of change between, you know, the Biden administration and now the Trump one in foreign policy. You know, we're still giving a ton of money to, like, Israel and Ukraine. Nothing is happening. You know, the war's not stopped. He promised it'd be done in a day, and it's. I don't know, how many months, eight months or something like that. It's a long time. Your dad was in the CIA, and I was wondering, does our government even.

[Douglas Murray]

Want war to stop?

[Host/Interviewer]

Do they want conflicts to end? It seems like we have a difference of interest where we're getting told one thing and the other is happening. And I feel like there's not enough communication between different sects of government. And I just. I really think the deep state's controlling everything, and we have no control.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, let me just. Let me start at. You know, obviously, you probably sense that I agree with a lot of that. Obviously, Leave my father out of it. I'm gonna have to kick your ass, which I could do, by the way, if you bring him up again, because he was a wonderful man, whatever he did for a living. So I really do hate that. But leaving that aside. And don't test me, son, I hate to say I agree with a lot of what? I mean, I think you probably know I agree with a lot of what you've said, and it's enormously frustrating. It's shocking, actually. And I do know. I'm not shilling. I just happen to know some of the people who work in the administration who are people who agree with you strongly. I think most Trump voters agree with you. That's why they voted for Donald Trump in the place first. First place. And, you know, no, pointless wars was not just a thing he said at one campaign stop. It was a pillar of his campaigns and of MAGA itself. I mean, what is maga? There's a mad scramble, particularly since Charlie's passing, to define what this is and to read some people out of the movement. You're not maga. Well, what is maga? Well, MAGA is five things, okay? Maga's America first, which means Americans should put no country before America. American interests come first. That's not a crazy idea. No pointless wars, period. And by pointless, I mean wars fought on behalf of an ideology or another nation are totally unacceptable. They weaken this country. Wars fought because somebody running a country is bad.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay?

[Douglas Murray]

Is bad. You're telling me a world leader is bad? All right, yeah, no, it's impoverished, you know, it's dramatically weakened this country, its social fabric, its treasury. It's killed so many Americans and it's really weakened America's position globally. So no. Pointless wars bring back American jobs, right? Meaningful jobs. You know, the call centers who moved to South Asia, AI's crushing the lawyers. What do Americans do for a living? Like, think deeply about that and work to make work a reality for people. I mean, you all are, I assume, still in college. Wait till you graduate. You know, I have a child who just graduated college once a week. I'm like, how many of your friends. And these are all like, smart, pretty, affluent, kind of connected, cute girls. How many of your friends have jobs in New York City? 4 out of 10. That's a disaster, actually. And someone needs to be thinking about that deeply. And the promise of MAGA was that somebody would. And then, of course, immigration. You have to control who comes in and out of your country or else you're not a country. I know that it's considered highly controversial to say that the population of America is being replaced by people from other countries, but it's not controversial. It's a mathematical fact. And the numbers are taken by the U.S. census. And that's just true. Now, some people are for it. I'm against it. I'm from here. I'm against that. I'm against replacing the current population. And it's happening in this country. It's completely happened in Canada, New Zealand and Australia and the uk. It's happening to the English speaking world. I'm not exactly sure what that is, but I'm totally opposed. And so was everyone who voted for Donald Trump. That's not a conspiracy theory. It's a mathematical reality. And stop it now. And the fifth pillar of maga, just to be totally clear, is free speech. Because it's our Birthright as Americans. And so when we talk about cancel culture or the woke. The woke or against the. What does that even mean? It means people who are attempting to abridge my ability to speak freely about what I actually believe. That's what that is. It's an attack on free speech. And by the way, the second Trump gets elected, all these people show up who I've never heard of, who are MAGA people. I can't hear you. Can you scream louder? I love the Solidarity fist.

[Host/Interviewer]

And they're saying, tepist house.

[Douglas Murray]

I couldn't hear what she said, but this is why I'm such an unpleasant person. That brings it out of me. And I'm gonna really try to be a nice person to Screechy. Oh, I could hear that. Anyway, there's all of a sudden this attempt to limit what people can say in public, and it's by people who claim to be maga. It's, like, insane, and I'm really shocked by it. So, again, those are the five pillars of maga. To be clear, I didn't make them up. Donald Trump articulated them consistently for 10 years, a full decade. He's dominated American politics for 10 years on the basis of those five ideas. And a central one of those five, the five pillars of Donald Trump is no pointless wars. He ran on it. He talked about it extensively. He explained why he thought it, including in interviews with me. And, you know, I will give allowances that the world is super complicated and conflicts are very hard to end, easy to start, hard to end, which is why you don't enter into them lightly. It's like marriage. Pretty easy to get married, go to Vegas, hard to get divorced. And that is true for wars. And so I will allow that because I'm familiar with some of the details. It's hard, but it's not that hard. And it's not as hard as some people pretend it is. And you know who the bad actors are. Zelensky is a bad actor, okay? He's a dictator. He's not the elected president of Ukraine. And he is set about methodically trying to eliminate traditional Christianity from Ukraine. How about. No, I'm not sending you money for that. I'm a Christian. No. And so, again, there's a lot going on. But I think anybody who begins negotiations or attempts to influence negotiations between Russia and Ukraine, who takes Zelensky seriously is making a mistake and probably prolonging a war that is basically for Ukraine. I feel sorry for the Ukrainians. There will be no Ukraine. But Zelensky allowed a law to go through the lawmaking body of Ukraine that legalized the sale of land in Ukraine to foreigners. That's a fact. And now the male population of Ukraine has been so completely decimated. Of course they lie about the numbers, but hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian men have died. That's like, oh, we're going to need to fill Ukraine with foreigners just because we have no labor force. So ask yourself, in a generation, will Ukraine be Ukrainian, or will it be like Canada, New Zealand, Australia, the UK and the United States? Will it have turned over in population, will be a different country? And the answer is probably. And there's nothing worse than that. Actually, there's nothing worse than that. To take an ancient indigenous population and just eliminate them. And that's exactly what they're doing. And no one's saying that. And Zelenskyy is leading it so hard. No, to him. And then on the Middle Eastern stuff, look, we have a lot of leverage. And you sound informed. I'm not gonna continue. But, I mean, we pay for the whole thing, so we're not gonna pay for this anymore. So it's like, if my kids are acting in some outrageous way, you can be like, don't do drugs or study hard in school, but ultimately you will find out when you become a parent, which I hope is soon have kids young, you will find out that your real leverage is economic. You're paying for this crap. And so if it really comes down to it, and your kid is just wasting his time in college, you could go nuclear and say, I'm not paying for it. Get a job in the kitchen.

[Commercial Narrator]

What?

[Douglas Murray]

Kids are every bit as entitled as Netanyahu. You know what? Work for it. But you could do that. And sometimes you have to do that. And we've reached the point where I think we have to do it because the cost to the United States is profound. So, yes, I'm agitated on those two questions. I share your frustration. And you don't want my father aside, you don't want to live in a country controlled by people whose names you don't know they work for agencies whose funding is secret. Like, if you actually knew the influence of a couple or more than a couple of federal agencies, some of which you probably never heard of, on American politics and global affairs, you'd be even more freaked out than. Than you are. So, yes, I'm upset about it. Very. Thank you for pissing me off more.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can I leave a final remark?

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, of course.

[Host/Interviewer]

This is something like, not political, but I think you like talking about it are aliens a religious or extraterrestrial subject?

[Douglas Murray]

They're spiritual entities. Spiritual is my view, yes. And I think, I don't think they're from another planet. I don't think there's any evidence of that. Or perhaps they are, but they've been resident here for recorded history and there's every reason to believe for eternity. And this is my belief and I think there's a lot there. There's also a lot of lying about it and official disinformation designed to confuse people or make you look ridiculous. I mean, there's a lot of stuff out there that you read about that subject that was put there in order to get you off the trail. And I'm not guessing at this. Some of it's been declassified. There's been a persistent 75 year effort by the United States government to confuse the population about what these things are that we can see in the sky and many people have seen. But after looking into it, you know, pretty extensively for a number of years off camera, my conclusion is that they are the spiritual entities that are described well in the Old Testament, in Ezekiel, but also, I would say, in the sacred texts of all kinds of religions around the world. This is not like, basically, I'll stop at this, but our culture is anomalous in the sense that we exclude the possibility of a spiritual realm. And that's only been true in the United States since August of 1945, when we dropped the atom bomb, which was the turning point in history, in my opinion. And it was the beginning of the total destruction of the west, which unfortunately we're witnessing now. And that destruction began with, you know, the same lie that begins all destruction, which is, I am God. Hubris is the end always. You know, it's what it was, the point of the Tower of Babel. It's the end of every leader, every leader who's like, I'm very powerful, I have godlike powers. That leader will be destroyed and a nation that believes that will be destroyed. And the atom bomb gave us the sense, the false sense, very false sense that we had absolute power, dominion over nature and mankind itself. And we started making a lot of really bad decisions. So but I. And one of the results of that was faith died in the United States. It's resurging now, thank God, literally. But for my whole childhood, I was born in 1969, the year that we walked on the moon. And just kidding, sort of maybe I have no idea. I'm not going to find out. I'm not going to Find out. I've got enough. I've got enough problems. I don't want to know. But anyway, the point is, I was born that year. And for my entire life up until recently, like, no one I knew in my world, which is like, you know, coastal, affluent, well educated. Not that I'm well educated, but everyone else around me is. No one ever, like, talked about God at dinner. That was like the spiritual realm was like kind of a D joke that, like, it's kind of a trailer park belief or who knows what they're handling snakes. They make TV shows about, like, no one believed that. And when you don't believe that, you kind of miss everything because it is real, whether you want it to be or not. That's literally real. That's absolutely real. It's as real as this podium. And so to someone living even 100 years ago, the idea that these are, of course, angels, demons, they're manifestations of a spiritual battle ongoing since the beginning of time, that would have been obvious. And instead we're like, maybe they flew in rocket ships from Mars. Do we, you know, do we have a telescope powerful enough to detect that? Oh, shut up. You're missing the obvious, dude. So.

[Host/Interviewer]

Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Douglas Murray]

Thank you.

[Advertisement Voice]

The U.S. electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use, our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news? One solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site, and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] we don't give a damn about fashion trends.

[Commercial Narrator]

We're public rec and our whole brand was built on a cheat code. For guys who want to look good and feel even better. We make clothes for guys who don't chase styles. Lightweight, stretchy, buttery, soft pants and gear made to wear all day, any day, look good and feel like you're getting away with something. Shop comfortable classics. Cool, comfortable, low key, impressive clothes. No BS. @PublicWrecked.com radio. Forget about fashion trends. Shop public rack, where comfort meets style vu never change.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads, supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers are into true crime, sports, comedy, culture, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iheart can extend extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. And all this reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for you. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Let us show you at iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com or call 844-844-IHEART. One more time, call 844-844-iHEART and get podcasting working for you.

[Commercial Narrator]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten, they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked, why Benghazi?

[Douglas Murray]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Commercial Narrator]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory.

[Douglas Murray]

Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre?

[Commercial Narrator]

Bad faith, political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

[Douglas Murray]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

[Commercial Narrator]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Host/Interviewer]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything.

[Douglas Murray]

That'S been going on for the last 20 years.

[Host/Interviewer]

Leon.

[Commercial Narrator]

I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Douglas Murray]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, that's right.

[Douglas Murray]

Lock her up.

[Commercial Narrator]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

[Douglas Murray]

I had another dog at one point who I. If you have my dog in the crowd. Oh, that way. Cool. Hi. Hey.

[Audience Member]

You're gonna have to forgive me. I had kind of a cold over the weekend. I'm losing my voice. But I just kind of wanted to ask. I want more insight on this because I think especially in the age of social media, we're hearing a lot of buzzwords. I think of a few examples of that would be words like woke or phrases like owning the libs or whatever. You already kind of touched on what your definition of woke is, but I kind of just want to hear more about that. And, like, how is that attacking your freedom of speech? Who are the people that are, like, a part of this movement that's attacking your freedom of speech? I feel like we hear woke up so much, especially from conservatives. I'm personally not one, but we never really hear, like, what it means.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, bless you for asking that question. And just in general, I think that we should demand a definition of terms like, if you're being attacked for being something. And if you're being punished especially for being something something, it's fair to ask, what do you mean by that thing? Right. You're racist, you're anti Semitic, you're. Okay, well, what is that? Why don't you define it for me? And WOKE would be definitely in that category. I think you. That's a. Thank you for asking that. I can give you the definition that I have in my mind. I think WOKE has two components. At its core, WOKE is an attempt by the powerful to make the less powerful shut up. All efforts to stifle speech come from the powerful, not the powerless. What's so interesting about this moment that we live in, this. Been true my whole life, really. But it's a new innovation in world history where the powerful use the powerless as a pretext to crush everyone else. So what they do? Yes, ma'.

[Host/Interviewer]

Am.

[Audience Member]

Well, when you say the powerful and the powerless, generally we associate wokeness. Like you guys say, it's like more LGBTQ agenda or more diversity of races. How is that the more powerful? Because those are historically oppressed groups of people.

[Douglas Murray]

Right. Well, that, that's. I mean, that may or may not be true, depending. I mean, probably true in some ways, untrue in others, certainly not true now.

[Audience Member]

How is that not true now?

[Douglas Murray]

Well, I mean, simply because if you were to just, for example, applied to Stanford Law School, which I would not recommend, but if you were to write an essay about how, you know, growing up queer in a Midwestern farm town.

[Audience Member]

I've grown up queer in a Midwestern farm.

[Douglas Murray]

You should have applied to Stanford Law School. You probably would have gotten in. I'm glad you didn't. But, but here's. Here's. But here's what I'm saying. Leaving aside that. And I'm not, by the way, I don't. I would never discover the fact that there are people who have been victims of bias. Obviously.

[Audience Member]

Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

I'm merely saying that big picture, the efforts to make other people be quiet on behalf of this or that marginalized group are 100% paid for and encouraged by the richest people in our society. So if you look for. And I'll be very specific in the case. Case of the. And I can never do the acronym fully, but for the. The gay lobby in Washington is run out of a building that was right across from my office for many years called the Human Rights Campaign, which is the largest gay lobby in Washington. Who pays for that? Where does that money come from? And they're the ones who spread Popularized the idea that people can change their sex if they want to. Transgenderism, which at the time was like a pretty boutique idea. There had always been trans transvestites, always in every society, including ours. But the idea that this was a category that needed federal protection and the people were born this way in the wrong body, that was a brand new idea. And I was there for that because I'm 56.

[Audience Member]

Wait, but correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the Human Rights Campaign, isn't that a non profit organization? So isn't it funded by. Or am I wrong about that?

[Douglas Murray]

I think it is a nonprofit. And what's interesting, and this is a.

[Audience Member]

Whole fundraise for the Human Rights Campaign.

[Douglas Murray]

Sure. But the. Well, you're absolutely right. It is like most lobbies in the United States, I would say all of them actually are not federally funded. They're nonprofits. And they're among the most powerful institutions. They may be the most powerful institutions in our country. Abroad they're called NGOs, non governmental organizations. But in the United States they operate as what we call nonprofits under 501c3 tax law. And that means they pay no taxes. And so they become enormously rich. Now if I were in charge, never gonna be, unfortunately, I would eliminate all tax exemption for everybody. For churches, the Human Rights Campaign, everyone pays the same tax. Cause we're all Americans. That would be my view. I think it's. But that's a sidebar. I would just say if you look, and I would encourage you to do this, to look into who funds that. And by the way, the Heritage foundation on the right. And like all these nonprofits, it's not just the Human Rights Campaign. The people who fund them are not the least powerful. They're not funded by some, you know, trans performer, you know, in the Castro district in San Francisco. They're funded by billionaires, all of them. Blm. The BLM riots were funded by Apple and Facebook. You know, all the biggest actors in corporate America fund these organizations which have the effect of getting people fired from their jobs or shamed into silence.

[Audience Member]

Make the argument that Elon Musk, he's one of the most powerful people in the world. He's a billionaire. Billions and billions of dollars. And he put all his money into the Trump campaign.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, I wouldn't make that case. I would state it as fact. That's true.

[Audience Member]

It's the facts. Well, I know, I know you're saying that. Listen, listen, listen. You're saying that wokeism and it's the most powerful Powerful people suppressing the lesser powerful. There's cases where it's people that you typically agree with, where it's powerful people suppressing the lesser powerful.

[Douglas Murray]

That may be absolutely true. I like Elon. I'm not endorsing everything he does, endorsing.

[Audience Member]

A more powerful individual. Why are you only against the more powerful when it's supporting things like human rights and blm, but you're for it when it's supporting Donald Trump?

[Douglas Murray]

Well, I don't know that I am. I mean, I think we may have a failure of, as usual, of me to explain myself fully. So I think you're speaking about two different categories. The first category was free speech and who's funding the efforts to suppress it. And I would say free speech benefits, by definition, the powerless. So, like, if you don't have a lot of money and clearly, you know, your vote isn't going to turn an election, what do you have? You have your conscience, you have your voice. So traditionally, and this is why it's enshrined in the Bill of Rights, the freedom of speech is the weapon of the powerless. It's all they have is their voice. That's it. Okay. And their ability to assemble and petition and make noise and all that. Right. This is what liberals used to say all the time, and I always agree with them. And you will find in every society, every time, the people who are against the exercise of free speech are the powerful. You find this in, you know, the potentates of the Middle east, who's against free speech, and Saudi. Well, the king, obviously, in every country. That's the case, and it's true in ours. So that's just a point I would make. And it's true for Wokeism, which was a lot of things. It was identity politics. But really, what was the point of it? It was identifying this group. This group has no power. Therefore you're not allowed to criticize them. Them, say the richest people in America who really don't want to hear an analysis of their leadership. That's what it's actually about. So that's the first point you're making. A second point, which I'm not sure I disagree with, which is that people who have billions of dollars have undue influence over our society. Amen, sister. I would say.

[Advertisement Voice]

The US Electric grid is approaching a breaking point. As demand soars from data centers and home energy use, our aging infrastructure can't keep up. And the Department of Energy warns that without action, blackouts could surge 100 fold by 2030. The good news, one solution is already here. Propane. It's American made, stored on site and always ready. Powering homes and businesses with cleaner, reliable energy that doesn't depend on the grid or the weather. Learn [e-mail] we don't give a damn about fashion trends.

[Commercial Narrator]

We're public rec and our whole brand was built on a cheat code for guys who want to look good and feel even better. We make clothes for guys who don't chase styles. Lightweight, stretchy, buttery, soft pants and gear made to wear all day, any day. Look good and feel like you're getting away with something. Shop Comfortable Classics Cool, comfortable, low key, impressive clothes. No [e-mail] radio forget about fashion trends. Shop Public rack where comfort meets style vu never change.

[iHeart Advertising Announcer]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads. Supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers are into true crime, sports, comedy, culture, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iheart can extend extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. And all this reach means everything. Just think about the universal marketing formula. The number of consumers who hear your message times the response rate equals the results. Now let's get those results growing for you. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Let us show you at iHeartadvertising.com that's iHeartadvertising.com or call 844-844 iHeart. One more time, call 844-844-IHeart and get podcasting working for you.

[Commercial Narrator]

When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a masochist, rolled their eyes, or just asked why Benghazi?

[Douglas Murray]

The truth became a web of lies.

[Commercial Narrator]

It's almost a dirty word, one that connotes conspiracy theory. Will we ever get the truth about the Benghazi massacre? Bad faith, political warfare, and frankly, bullshit.

[Douglas Murray]

We kill the ambassador just to cover something up. You put two and two together.

[Commercial Narrator]

Was it an overblown distraction or a sinister conspiracy?

[Host/Interviewer]

Benghazi is a Rosetta Stone for everything.

[Douglas Murray]

That'S been going on for the last 20 years.

[Commercial Narrator]

Leon I'm Leon Naifak from Prologue Projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Douglas Murray]

What difference at this point does it make?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes, that's right.

[Douglas Murray]

Lock her up.

[Commercial Narrator]

Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Douglas Murray]

I do agree with that point though.

[Audience Member]

Like what I'm trying to say is that you're saying that wokeism is this more powerful, suppressing the less powerful. However, I see that more in our current administration. Donald Trump is incredibly rich. He had Elon Musk, who's incredibly rich. And you're supporting the First Amendment and freedom to assemble and freedom to petition. You're saying that's a good thing. That happened this weekend with the no Kings protest. And you're here this very rich organization. You're here actively criticizing those who went to that protest.

[Douglas Murray]

I did. I know. I actually.

[Audience Member]

Organization, not you specifically.

[Douglas Murray]

No, no. What I, what I said was.

[Audience Member]

I'm not saying what you said. I'm saying what the previous speaker said.

[Douglas Murray]

Okay.

[Audience Member]

Comedian made fun of the people.

[Douglas Murray]

Okay.

[Audience Member]

No Kings.

[Douglas Murray]

You know, I do think, and this is, this is news to liberals, I do think making fun of people is within bounds. I'm not saying it and I enjoy it. And so. No, but I, but I will take your, I will take your. Where you're going. Seriously. And I think.

[Audience Member]

Let me finish where I was.

[Douglas Murray]

I can't. No, I'm going to interrupt you. Of course you could. I'm totally kidding.

[Audience Member]

Thank you. What I'm saying is if you support that First Amendment right so much and you support the idea that the lesser powerful shouldn't be suppressed by the more powerful, I would think that you would be against the President of the United States going on his social media and posting AI videos of him dropping on the protesters as he's a more powerful and they're the lesser powerful.

[Douglas Murray]

So we may have a definition of terms problem here. So you can say I think it's ugly that the President of the United States is posting naughty videos on his ex account or whatever. Ok, fine. What I'm defending is the sacred God given right of every person to say what he believes. That's called free speech. That's what's enshrined in our First Amendment. If you can name any example of the administration abridging that I will criticize, I will agree with you 100. I believe in that. Independent of party. I'm not particularly partisan. Actually I kind of hate the Republican Party. Just being honest. I'm not going to vote for the Democratic Party because I think they're evil. So it puts me in a tough spot. But I'm not partisan in the slightest. I never have been. So if you can name an example of anybody preventing or trying to prevent someone else from saying what he thinks Is true. Speaking his conscience. I will agree with you, but I don't think that you thought deeply enough about the difference between making fun of someone and preventing him from speaking. There's a meaningful difference.

[Audience Member]

I'm saying that that was an example of a.

[Douglas Murray]

No, no, you said that because Trump posted a naughty cartoon on Twitter. He's against the First Amendment.

[Audience Member]

I'm like, he's against the protest, which is an example of practicing the First Amendment.

[Douglas Murray]

No, you can certainly make fun of a protest without preventing the protest from happening.

[Audience Member]

Unacceptable way for the president to be acting, though, because he is the President of the United States. He can change people's course of action.

[Douglas Murray]

Okay, okay. But can I. Can I.

[Commercial Narrator]

Wait, May I may.

[Douglas Murray]

Matt, I say one thing again. We're arguing past each other, and I hope I end with this, which is to say you can make the case that he shouldn't have done that because it's unbecoming or whatever. Fair. Fine, we can debate it. But I don't think that you're making the case. He was abridging anyone's First Amendment. Criticizing, and this is part of the derangement of the left, that criticizing somebody is the same as committing violence against them or preventing them from speaking. That is not true. Trying to get someone fired from his job. I've been on the receiving end of that, like, about 100 times. Well, I guess I did get fired in the end. Sorry, totally forgot. You know, I would argue that's, like, kind of a meaningful attempt to stifle speech, but I just see a big difference. But if you don't. I don't know how to convince.

[Audience Member]

Other examples of him stifling free speech.

[Douglas Murray]

All right, I'm going to. I'm gonna. I. I think your questions. I think your questions are in good faith. I think you're trying to understand what I'm saying. I'm definitely trying to understand what you're saying, but I'm gonna ask to go to the next questioner just because we've gone back and forth quite a bit. Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, my God. All right. Hi. Hi, Tucker. This is kind of surreal because I remember watching you in 2004 on CNN, what. With Paul Begalitwin Johnson.

[Douglas Murray]

I never did that. That's totally. That's AI, Man. I never.

[Host/Interviewer]

There was a lot of people don't know you were on msm.

[Douglas Murray]

I never worked at cnn.

[Host/Interviewer]

On Crossfire. Are you, like, just straight? Really?

[Douglas Murray]

Are you denying that right now? For real? Have you ever heard of AI Dude? Oh, my God.

[Host/Interviewer]

Oh, he's doing that's pretty good.

[Douglas Murray]

I totally get it.

[Host/Interviewer]

I don't.

[Douglas Murray]

I did. I've done a lot of shameful things. I'm not going to pretend I have.

[Host/Interviewer]

One thing in common with you. I'm also long winded and have a hard time, you know, wrapping up my flower.

[Douglas Murray]

But I don't have your find a patient wife. That's my advice.

[Host/Interviewer]

I don't have your rhetorical skills. You'll definitely, you know, throw a lot of my way that I won't be able to counter. But I'm just, I wonder like, for you, like being at CNN being then being at Fox and like you say, you know, you're all against disinformation, but you were, you know, up there with Sean Hannity just repeating talking points, you know, on Fox News with that Rupert Murdoch and Roger Ailes were just telling you to say that got the tea party started. You can't tell me that you weren't conscious that you were spreading disinformation in 2020.

[Douglas Murray]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a minute. Hold on, hold on. You've already. I had an example. No, I'm gonna need. First of all, I never got talking points from ails or.

[Host/Interviewer]

Okay, well, I'm sure they directly give them to you, obviously.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, I, I worked there for 15 years. So if you're interested in like what it was like, I'm happy to take tell you as honestly as I can.

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Douglas Murray]

You are listening to me, which, let's.

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Host/Interviewer]

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[Douglas Murray]

You're a good. So why not make the next ad about you?

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Call 844-844-IHEART or go to iheartadvertising.com that's 844-844-iheart or iheartadvertising.com When I told people I was making a podcast about Benghazi, nine times out of ten they called me a ma, rolled their eyes or.

[Douglas Murray]

Just asked why Benghazi the truth became.

[Commercial Narrator]

A web of lies from Prologue projects and Pushkin Industries. This is Fiasco Benghazi.

[Douglas Murray]

What difference at this point does it make?

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Listen to Fiasco Benghazi on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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