TURNING POINT TONIGHT, WITH JOBOB, SEPTEMBER 23RD, 2025

Summary

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Podcast Summary

TURNING POINT TONIGHT, WITH JOBOB – September 23, 2025

Show: Real America’s Voice
Host: Guest: Michael Knowles (Daily Wire), with college student audience in Minnesota
Air Date: September 24, 2025

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OVERVIEW

This episode is a somber yet determined installment of "Turning Point Tonight," recorded live during the American Comeback tour at a Minnesota college event. With the assassination of prominent conservative figure Charlie Kirk fresh in memory, Michael Knowles stands in as the night's keynote, delivering a tribute to Kirk’s legacy, a call to cultural and spiritual renewal, and fielding tough political, philosophical, and faith-based questions from the student audience. The episode captures the right’s response to loss, its rallying embrace of faith and order, and the culture war debates at the core of contemporary campus life.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Introduction & Context (01:10–02:39)

• The regular host explains that due to family reasons, Michael Knowles is standing in for Charlie Kirk.
• Michael Knowles had stepped up at short notice, following Kirk’s assassination, to continue the "American Comeback" tour.

2. Tribute to Charlie Kirk (02:39–10:53)

• Eulogizing Kirk’s Character and Achievements:
  • Knowles reflects on the “brightness” of Kirk—not just his political acumen or debate skills, but his personal character and steadfast faith.
  • Quote: “Charlie’s brightness came not primarily from his professional accomplishments. They came from his character... There was simply a light and levity to the man, and it was constant.” (03:55)
• On Mourning, Faith, and Death:
  • Knowles pushes against religious platitudes, affirming the reality and injustice of murder.
  • Quote: “Death is bad. Murder is bad. People who commit murder need to be punished. People who celebrate murder need to be punished too.” (05:40)
• Kirk’s Desired Legacy:
  • Emphasizes that Kirk hoped to be remembered for his faith above all.
  • Quote: “He wanted to be remembered for his faith. He wanted to help as many souls to heaven as he could.” (07:33)
• Religious Renewal and Culture:
  • Notes the surge in church attendance following Kirk’s death, even among those new to religion.

3. Reflections on the Memorial & Christian Politic (11:57–21:36)

• Memorial Highlights:
  • Particularly moved by Erica Kirk’s speech, including her public forgiveness of her husband’s killer.
  • Quote: “Erica Kirk gave us a glimpse of Calvary.” (12:32)
• Integration of Faith and National Life:
  • Observes the rare public proclamation of the gospel from federal leaders at Kirk’s memorial.
  • Affirms America's historical roots in Christian moral order.
• Faith, Politics, and Justice:
  • Argues that proper Christianity involves both forgiveness and justice.
  • Quote: “Christian forgiveness does not demand that we allow the cruel to ravage the whole earth. It demands that we love our enemies. And sometimes love is tough.” (16:27)
  • Sees societal order as essential for liberty; calls for the ostracization of those who celebrate evil.
  • Calls for action to “heal this national trauma and to re establish a healthy politics.” (20:40)

4. Open Q&A with Students (22:53–54:29)

• On the 19th Amendment and Women’s Suffrage:
  • Audience member claims societal decline began with women’s suffrage and suggests repealing the amendment.
  • Knowles responds with humor and nuance, noting that men and heads of the household bear responsibility.
  • Quote: “I try not to blame women on their own…because I think men need to lead the women in their lives also.” (25:10)
• Advice on Manhood and Fatherhood:
  • “Men need to keep a real even keel…especially in a culture such as ours, which is so emotivist… Discipline your will. Act like a man and lead your family.” (28:38)
• Debate with Liberal Student on Cancel Culture and Free Speech:
  • Student likens recent conservative actions to left-wing cancel culture.
  • Knowles pushes back, arguing regulation of public airwaves is within FCC’s legal right, and affirms that “public airwaves do not permit egregious lies.”
  • On truth: “We must have confidence in our reason, our ability to discern the difference between truth and falsehood, right and wrong.” (37:06)
• Pro-Life vs. Death Penalty Dilemma:
  • Knowles defends the death penalty’s compatibility with Christianity, citing tradition and scripture (St. Paul’s writing, papal history).
  • “There is nothing that I see about the death penalty that is intrinsically evil.” (45:32)
• How to Defend Faith at Liberal Colleges:
  • Encourages students to view hostile intellectual environments as opportunities to evangelize.
  • Quote: “When you go to a liberal university…these people have simply never heard the other side.” (48:35)
• Finding a Church with Strong Leadership:
  • Knowles instructs to seek churches centered on worship, not merely sermons or social engagement.

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

• Opening Prayer and Memorializing Kirk:

  • “Charlie belongs to God, as do we all. What the assassin took from us, more precisely, is what we imagined Charlie’s future would be.” (05:16)

• On Christian Forgiveness and Justice:

  • “Erica Kirk forgave her husband’s killer. The state of Utah will inject poison into that killer's veins until he's dead. There is no contradiction between those two things.” (16:45)

• Cultural Critique:

  • “You cannot be undisciplined and free. You cannot be ignorant and free. That's why we don't let toddlers vote.” (17:54)

• Debate on Censorship:

  • “We should promote the truth. We should suppress the lies, and we should have a good country.” (37:08)

• Addressing the Death Penalty:

  • “St. Paul tells us that the civil authority does not bear the sword in vain… The death penalty has never been thought of as an intrinsic evil.” (41:07)

• On Personal Loss and Persevering Spirit:

  • Audience member: “I had the privilege to see Charlie last year while he was in Madison… I really wish I would have told him that he's one of my heroes…" (50:56)
  • Knowles: "I almost lost it at the top of my speech, too… It’s very difficult these days.” (50:56)

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TIMESTAMP INDEX OF IMPORTANT SEGMENTS

• 01:10 – Show intro: Kirk assassination context, tour continues
• 02:39–10:53 – Knowles’ tribute and prayer for Charlie Kirk; reflections on loss and faith
• 11:57–21:36 – Analysis of Charlie’s memorial; Erica Kirk’s forgiveness; faith & national politics; call for order and renewal
• 22:53 – Start of live Q&A: Knowles invites all questions, especially from dissenters
• 24:15 – Questioning women’s suffrage and the 19th Amendment
• 28:38 – Advice on masculinity and fatherhood
• 29:14 – Liberal student challenges Knowles on cancel culture and hypocrisy
• 36:54 – Clash over free speech, censorship, and the role of government in truth-telling
• 40:21 – Pro-life student asks Knowles to reconcile pro-life stance with support for death penalty
• 48:00 – How to defend faith in a hostile academic environment
• 50:50 – Finding strong spiritual leadership and churches committed to worship

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TONE & ATMOSPHERE

• The tone oscillates between solemn (death of Kirk, moments of prayer, tears from audience), combative (Q&A clashes on politics and faith), and occasionally humorous or self-deprecating.
• Knowles stays pastorally authoritative, blending confidence with traditional values, and frequently cites religious tradition and history.
• Audience engagement is earnest, often emotional, and sometimes provocative (notably in questions about women's rights, cancel culture, and capital punishment).

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FINAL THOUGHTS

This episode is a real-time microcosm of the right’s cultural anxieties and aspirations, marked by grief for a lost leader and determination to “chart the course of America's cultural comeback.” The central themes—faith, forgiveness, societal order, and active participation in the public square—frame the emotional and ideological divides shaping today’s American right, especially as played out in the crucible of the college campus.

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Transcript

[Michael Knowles]

This is an I heart podcast.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

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[Chris Counahan]

Hey everybody. Chris here. I understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

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[Ron (Caller)]

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[Chris Counahan]

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[Ron (Caller)]

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[Ron (Caller)]

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[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

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[Michael Knowles]

Foreign.

[Turning Point Host]

Good evening and welcome in to Turning Point tonight where together we are charting the course of America's cultural comeback. I've got good news and actually more good news, the first of which is that the American Comeback tour, the tour that Charlie was on, continued on starting last night in Minnesota. Obviously no one can fill the shoes so of Charlie, but as Erica stated, we will be undeterred and continue on the mission that Charlie fought so hard for. Michael Knowles of the Daily Wire took Charlie's place last night and delivered a fantastic set of remarks as well as answered some questions and even got into a couple debates with students that showed up to Turning Points event last night. We were going to bring you that event in its entirety, which leads me to my other piece of good news. The reason we're showing that tonight so is because my wife and I are on the way to the hospital. And hopefully by the time you're watching this, we've got baby number two in hand. So your prayers are appreciated. Thank you so much for tuning in. Let's take it to Michael Knowles in Minnesota at the Turning Point Continued college tour.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Thank you to all of you for being here tonight. This event was originally supposed to be a conversation between between me and Charlie. Now it will be a conversation about Charlie. It will be a conversation about his life and what his assassination means for our country. The enemies of Civilization. The assassin, as well as the people who excused and cheered him on, thought that they could stop Charlie Kirk's movement. In reality, they have not even stopped his lecture tour. I would like to begin, if you would indulge me, with a prayer. Charlie had a great affinity for St. Michael the Archangel, and I think the St. Michael prayer speaks especially to our moment in the Father, son, Holy Spirit, St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Amen. Twelve days ago, a ruined soul assassinated one of the brightest figures of our generation. And when I say bright, I am not just talking about Charlie's rhetorical skills, which had surpassed just about every public figure around. And I don't just mean his political genius, which led an 18 year old kid to found the most significant cultural institution on the American right. 18 years old, and which led through all of his political achievements to the President, the Vice President, the Secretary of State, among others, to our entire government showing up to his beautiful memorial service yesterday. I am not talking about any of Charlie's accomplishments, be they in broadcasting, publishing, coalition, building, debate, or any of the other many things that Charlie had mastered. Charlie's brightness came not primarily from his professional accomplishments. They came from his character. You did not have to be a personal friend of his to notice it. You could see it in everything he did. There was simply a light and a levity to the man, and it was constant, even when he was stressed, even when he was arguing, which was frequent, even when he suffered setbacks. That light and that levity stem from one fact. Charlie's savior lives. We're mourning Charlie right now. And I think it's right to mourn Charlie. I think it's right to grieve. I have no use for the happy clappy kind of modern religion that tells us we can't be sad when our friend dies simply because we have faith in his salvation. Death is bad. Murder is bad. People who commit murder need to be punished. People who celebrate murder need to be punished too. Death reminds us that something has gone wrong. Death was not part of the original plan. Jesus wept at the death of his friend just moments before he raised him from the dead. We can know that in everything, God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose, while still recognizing the difference between good and evil. We can entrust Charlie's soul to our Lord Jesus Christ, as Charlie always entrusted himself, while still knowing that his assassin took something from us that he didn't have to take. What the assassin took was not even Charlie. He could not have taken Charlie. Charlie belongs to God, as do we all. What the assassin took from us, more precisely, is what we imagined Charlie's future would be. That is part of what makes death so shocking, the realization that our plans are not guaranteed. Man plans, and God laughs. But we say he was going to do this. Oh, she was going to do that. We were going to speak at the University of Minnesota together. We weren't actually. We do not have ultimate control over those things. Everyone who knew Charlie and many people who did not know Charlie personally, knew that he would be president one day. We knew it. We knew it. But would is a conditional verb, and it depends upon ifs that are out of our control. Charlie would have been president, but he won't be. In the wake of Charlie's death, many people are presuming to declare what he would have believed about this or that issue. Not what he did believe, mind you. What he would have believed, what he would have said if he had lived longer. This kind of talk is as absurd as it is unseemly. It is appointed for men to die once, and after that, the judgment. With the exception of Charlie's beloved wife and the people very closest to him, those who would chime in for Charlie today are appropriating an authority that does not belong to them. It's a usurpation at best. It is a waste of time. And one thing we all know Charlie never did was waste time. He worked about 27 hours a day, eight days a week. Charlie accomplished more in his 31 years than most people could accomplish in many lifetimes. His most public accomplishments were political. His most important were religious. He wanted to be remembered for his faith. He wanted to help as many souls to heaven as he could. If you want to honor Charlie, go to church. Read the Bible, pray, and do it right now. Do it right now. Do not wait. Now might be your only chance. Many people I've seen are doing just that. I saw it myself last Sunday. You will not be surprised to learn that I attend a rather traditional church. Smells and bells and suits and ties and all that sort of thing. One thing that means is that it's easy to spot someone new, someone who was just looking for the nearest church because he felt a sudden desire to be close to God. Someone whose Sunday best is usually a T shirt and jeans. I saw a lot of T shirts at mass last Sunday. I was thrilled to see those T shirts. I was thrilled to see those T shirts. Next week they should put on a jacket. But last week it was nice. It was nice to see because it meant that people who had left the church were returning. It meant perhaps that people who had never been to church were coming for the first time and they were showing up because of Charlie.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

You're listening to leaffilter radio and the guru of gutter protection himself, Chris Counahan is here to take your most pressing leaf related questions.

[Chris Counahan]

Hey everybody, Chris here. I understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

Uh, oh, Ron, are you calling from a ladder?

[Ron (Caller)]

Well, I was. I wanted to ask Chris what I need to do to get my gutters ready to have leaffilter installed.

[Chris Counahan]

Oh, Ron, you don't have to do anything. A leaffilter trusted pro will come out and clean out your gutters, realign and seal your gutters and install leaffilter, America's number one gutter protection system.

[Ron (Caller)]

So I didn't need to get on this ladder.

[Chris Counahan]

Ron, leaffilter trusted pros are in your neighborhood and ready to help. Just visit leaffilter.comday to schedule your free gutter inspection and get up to 30% off.

[Ron (Caller)]

Thank goodness. What was that site?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

That's leaffilter.com day for your free gutter inspection today. See representative for warranty details. Promotion is 20% off plus a 10% senior or military discount. One discount per household.

[Michael Knowles]

I was one of the hundreds of thousands of people who attended Charlie's memorial yesterday. When you count those who streamed it, I was one of over 100 million people who was watching it live. I suspect all of you were too. It was a remarkable event in many ways. Two things stood out in particular. First, Charlie's widow Erica gave one of the most powerful speeches I have ever heard in my life. I was sitting with some of the toughest politicians in the world. There was not a dry eye in the house. In just one of several arresting moments in her speech, Erica forgave the man who murdered her husband because Christ on the cross asked his father to forgive his killers. Because we all ask God to forgive us as we forgive those who trespass against us. It was amazing. At a time when half the country, it seems, minimizes, excuses and even celebrates political violence, Erica Kirk gave us a glimpse of Calvary. But the second most striking part of the memorial was that the leadership of our federal government spent four hours proclaiming the gospel to the entire world, that should not have been surprising. We are a country founded by people who called themselves pilgrims. We were settled by people who said that we would be a model of Christian charity. Our government was established on the premise that we are endowed by our Creator with rights. Our national anthem declares, conquer we must when our cause it is just, and this be our motto. In God is our trust. Seeing our national leaders proclaim the gospel should not have been surprising. But it was, because we had not seen it in a very, very long time. Many of us had not seen it in our entire lives. The memorial was perfectly Charlie. On the one hand, it was about eternity, about the truths that transcend all ages and places. On the other hand, it was eminently political, temporal, local, particular. And there is no contradiction between the two, because we are all both of those things. We are souls which are eternal, and we are bodies which are temporal. People tend to fall into one of two errors on this subject today. They either think that politics is everything more important than family, more important than morality, so important we murder people over disagreements. Or they think that politics is nothing, that we should ignore policy fights and debates and keep our pure and precious hands from being sullied in the muck of practical politics. Charlie understood that both errors missed the mark. That we need to keep our eyes on eternal things. That we're never quite at home in this world because we are pilgrims on our way to the heavenly Jerusalem. But also that we are political creatures in space and time, which means that we have to do things, means that our faith will look like something, that we will give a certain shape to our political community, which exists for the common good. So what do we do now? What do we do now? We should forgive our enemies trespasses. And we should prevent our enemies from trespassing again in the future. Some people. Some people seem to misunderstand Christian forgiveness. They think that it's somehow contrary to criminal justice, that it means being a wimp, that it means letting criminals off the hook, that it means anarchy. On the contrary, Christian forgiveness is about recognizing that vengeance belongs to the Lord who will repay. That's the first part. While criminal justice belongs to the civil authority, which does not bear the sword in vain. Erica Kirk forgave her husband's killer. The state of Utah will inject poison into that killer's veins until he's dead. There is no contradiction between those two things. Christian forgiveness does not demand that we allow the cruel to ravage the whole earth. It demands that we love our enemies. And sometimes love is tough. In our personal lives, love means praying for those who persecute us. In politics, love usually means punishing the guilty, both for the protection of the innocent as well as for the good of the criminals. No one benefits from crime, decay and disorder. Not the rest of us and not the criminals themselves. We cherish what we call the marketplace of ideas. In America, in the wake of Charlie's assassination, many are inclined merely to redouble our devotion to the free marketplace of ideas. This instinct, I think, misses a crucial step. We had a marketplace of ideas. The left shot it up. If we wish to restore the healthy exchange of ideas, we need to refortify the marketplace. Marketplaces of all kinds of require rules, confidence, and common media of exchange. They require, in other words, order. Liberty requires order. You cannot be undisciplined and free. You cannot be ignorant and free. That's why we don't let toddlers vote. Okay, we all know this at a very basic level. What we must now do is reassert order for the exchange of ideas, for the flourishing of our public square. For liberty, we must insist upon the acceptance of basic truths and moral goods, not as the asymptotic goal of endless debate, but as the axiomatic foundation without which debate cannot occur. CS Lewis called these principles the dao. Others call them the natural law, or the first principles of practical reason. We're in a university. If you've ever studied algebra, you know that you must begin with certain axioms. You have to begin with premises like A equals A, or if A equals B, then B equals A. That's about all the math that I know, but I at least got that far. Those axioms are themselves unprovable, but if we don't assume them, we can't prove anything else. The same is true in politics and morality. We cannot quite prove that we should live in an ordered society. But without assuming so, we can't prove anything else. If our society is to function, we must foreclose certain antisocial behaviors and certain suicidal ideologies. We must stop, to borrow a phrase from Chesterton, the thought that stops thought. Practically, this means that we must stigmatize certain evil ideas and behaviors and we must ostracize people who insist upon them. More practically, this means that people who persist in such disorder should lose their social standing. In certain cases, they should lose their jobs. With any political reform, we have to err on the side of caution. But a good place to begin would be with those who celebrate the murder of an innocent man who simply wanted to talk it out. You have to begin from that point. You cannot maintain a hospital if the nurses seek to murder half the patients. You cannot operate a school if the teachers wish death upon the students. You cannot run a restaurant if the customers think that the waiters want to poison them. There must be consequences to heal this national trauma and to re establish a healthy politics. Those consequences require clarity of vision, courage in our convictions, and an extraordinary amount of God's grace. I believe it can be done. You all who have come out here tonight, despite the threats, despite the hardship, have shown that you all believe that it can be done. The man that we honor tonight gave his life in the confident hope that it can be done. We must never despair. We must never surrender to the forces that seek our destruction.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

And.

[Michael Knowles]

And we must work tirelessly to ensure that this moment truly becomes a turning point for America. Thank you very much.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

You're listening to leaffilter radio and the guru of gutter protection himself, Chris counahan is here to take your most pressing leaf related questions.

[Chris Counahan]

Hey everybody, Chris here. I understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

Uh, oh, Ron, are you calling from a ladder?

[Ron (Caller)]

Well, I was. I wanted to ask Chris what I need to do to get my gutters ready to have leaffilter installed.

[Chris Counahan]

Oh, Ron, you don't have to do anything. A leaffilter trusted pro will come out and clean out your gutters, realign and seal your gutters and install leaffilter, America's number one gutter protection system.

[Ron (Caller)]

So I didn't need to get on this ladder.

[Chris Counahan]

Ron, leaffilter trusted pros are in your neighborhood and ready to help. Just visit leaffilter.comday to schedule your free gutter inspection and get up to 30% off.

[Ron (Caller)]

Thank goodness. What was that site?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

That's leaffilter.com day for your free gutter inspection today. See representative for warranty details. Promotion is 20% off plus a 10% senior or military discount. One discount per household.

[Michael Knowles]

I know I said we shouldn't speak for Charlie. Charlie would have loved that. I think we all know it. I think we all know it now. Also in honor of Charlie and also to say no to the forces who would stop us. We are going to have an open conversation tonight. You can ask me anything and if you disagree, you can cut to the front of the line you've lined up already. That was fast. Thank you. Thanks. Yes, very kind. Thank you. Very kind.

[Audience Member Questioning 19th Amendment]

Just had to say before my question, Michael, Charlie was the best of us, and I think he was going to be the next vice president. You're the best of us now.

[Michael Knowles]

You gotta be the next vice president. Very kind of you. If the last week has taught us anything, it's that no one fills Charlie's shoes. And It'll take about 500 of us to lift up the microphone. But I think everyone wants to pitch in.

[Audience Member Questioning 19th Amendment]

So my question to you is, Michael, is we all know that the fall came through the woman. Evil comes into the world through the woman. And since women have gotten the right to vote in the United States, with the exception of technology, I think every single aspect of American lifestyle has gone down. The nuclear family, open borders, welfare state, the abortion state, homosexuality, transgender abortion, defund the police, the attack on our military, the attack on masculinity. I could go on and on. I really do think that we have to have a serious conversation about repealing the 19th Amendment. I wonder what you think.

[Michael Knowles]

It's a mixed response. I was waiting for you to add, you know, burnt toast at breakfast because of the. No, I'm joking, I'm joking. You know, look, the really hardcore trad conservatives would say that the decay did not begin when women got the race right to vote. It's when anyone got the right to vote. You can go all the way back to the Garden of Eden. But I actually do have to correct one point. Eve eats the apple first and then Adam goes next. But St. Paul blames Adam for the sin entering the world because man is the head of woman, because man is the head of his household. And so I try not to blame women on their own, but for one reason, for one reason that the feminists are not going to like, because I think men need to lead the women in their lives also. So it's a way to offend everybody, I guess. But I have a compromise because I agree, if you look at single women, they vote for Democrats overwhelmingly. Although people like Charlie were able to move that vote to 40% of women under the age of 30 voted for Trump in 2024. So we've made progress. But I see your point. And so I have a solution. Having looked at the demographics and how they vote, I would say, okay, to the people who want to appeal the 19th Amendment, we can take the vote away from the single women who vote for Democrats. Hear me out. Hear me out. And then we can give two votes to the married women who vote for Republicans. Is that a deal? That's called compromise. That's called bipartisanship, I think. Thank you for Your question?

[Audience Member Questioning 19th Amendment]

Can I just say one last thing?

[Michael Knowles]

Sure.

[Audience Member Questioning 19th Amendment]

For 120 years we had a border, and then in 1920, the 19th Amendment came out and four years later we had to get the border patrol. Just something to think about.

[Michael Knowles]

No, it's. Hey, listen, the 17th amendment wasn't great either, the 18th amendment. So I'm willing to look, I'll lump the 19th in there too, those progressive amendments. But I like my conciliation on that. You know, I think that's a great. Then we're going to win all 57 states.

[Audience Member Questioning 19th Amendment]

You're our next vice president, Michael.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

God bless you.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Good evening.

[Michael Knowles]

Michael, I know you said prior that the summation of liberalism is I hate you, dad. And we recently lost a husband and a father, but I know you're a husband and a father and I love my own father very much. So I've just got two a two part question for you. What is the best piece of advice, one that lives in your head, that you have received from your father? And as a husband and a father, what piece of advice would you offer to the husbands and fathers here and those of us who are to become one soon? The best advice that I've gotten from my father, he gave it to me in words when I was a teenager. Teenager. I'm sure he won't even remember it. But he's also just demonstrated it in his behavior consistently for my entire life, which is, I was a punk kid, I wanted to fall away from religion. I thought Christopher Hitchens was really clever. And I mentioned this to my father and he said, yeah, you'll probably come back to it in your 20s or something. You'll return. I said, what are you talking about? I'm so smart. I figured everything out. I'm 13 and I know God doesn't exist. And he just, he didn't react in a strong way. He just said, yeah, you'll probably come back into it, just a kind of steady pace. And my beloved father has demonstrated this. And I think men really need to demonstrate this at all times. He's kept a real even keel. And maybe it's because he's a wasp. I don't know what it is. Maybe a Sicilian gets up a little bit in my blood, but men need to keep a real even keel, especially in a culture such as ours, which is so emotivist, it's so constantly full of passion and vituperation. I find very few things more nauseating than an overly emotional man. Calm down, get a hold of yourself. Discipline your will. Act like a man and lead your family. Thank you. Michael. Hi.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Thank you so much for being here. I know it's tough after all of the events that happened. I don't know if I'm going to be the only token liberal here, but I'll try.

[Michael Knowles]

I'm glad at least one showed up. I appreciate it.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

I'll try my best to play that role. So the administration, the current administration, has engaged in lawfare, cancel culture and ideological purity tests and a lot of things that they've blamed the left for doing. I can give like many examples like Jimmy Kimmel show being canceled. Luckily it's coming back. But, you know, that's kind of, I.

[Michael Knowles]

Guess he wasn't canceled, was he? I think you've kind of undercut your own premise.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

You know, it kind of affects the whole media landscape. So Trump trying to fire the member of the Federal Reserve Board by coming up with charges that aren't even being held up in court.

[Michael Knowles]

Are they? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

You know, RFK Jr. Just, just one more example. RFK Jr. Firing anyone who disagrees with him on vaccines, firing a 17 member scientific board just because he wants more discussion. You know what I'm trying to figure out argument. So my question is, do you agree with these, with these. Sorry. Do you disagree with these things, actions, or do you believe that these means justify the ends of the America that you want to happen?

[Michael Knowles]

I think I'd want a little more clarity on the premise because just to use your first example, you said that the Trump administration is engaging in cancel culture and the suppression of free speech because the administration got Jimmy Kimmel canceled. First of all, that isn't true. The affiliates got Jimmy Kimmel canceled because he made egregious lies about the murder of Charlie Kirk based on nothing, nothing on public airwaves that have to be licensed from the federal government in accordance with the fcc, which exists to regulate broadcast networks.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

And he said things like that. The issue is that like 12 hours before he was fired, the FCC head went and said, oh, we're going to try to do things they're not going to like, they better change their conduct.

[Michael Knowles]

Right.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

They didn't have legal measures. All they had was this threat and using threats to silence opposition. Like if they have a case, if they have a law, if they have a regulation, go for it. There's no regulation. They're just trying to scare him. And that's scary to me.

[Michael Knowles]

But the problem is, even if that were true, and I'm disputing that claim, but even if it were true, that Jimmy Kimmel were fired because the FCC pressured him. He's not fired. His show is back on the air. So that example, I think, totally undercuts the point you're trying to make when you say that Bobby Kennedy is the Secretary of Health and Human Services, has changed out some of the personnel. Yeah, that's what elections do. That's the whole point is you elect people and then the president appoints cabinet secretaries and they replace him with the people that they want in the cabinet. So that's all the prerogative of the president. None of this is out of the ordinary. Every kind of administration would do it.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

To say that it didn't happen. I don't want to bring like a different Trump assassination. Attempted assassination. Sure, I know that's a bad example right now, but sure, that was unsuccessful, just like firing Jimmy Kimmel was unsuccessful. But, you know, it affects our entire culture, our entire landscape. You can't just ignore, say it never happened and it's fine.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

You're listening to leaffilter Radio and the guru of gutter protection himself, Chris Kunahan is here to take your most pressing leaf related questions.

[Chris Counahan]

Hey, everybody, Chris here. Understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

[Maria (Audience Member)]

Uh.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

Oh, Ron, are you calling from a ladder?

[Ron (Caller)]

Well, I was. I wanted to ask Chris what I need to do to get my gutters ready to have leaffilter installed.

[Chris Counahan]

Oh, Ron, you don't have to do anything. A leaffilter trusted pro will come out and clean out your gutters, realign and seal your gutters and install leaffilter, America's number one gutter protection system.

[Ron (Caller)]

So I didn't need to get on this ladder.

[Chris Counahan]

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[Ron (Caller)]

Thank goodness. What was that site?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

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[Michael Knowles]

I don't know that that's the most apt comparison. It would be entirely within the rights and actually the very purpose of the FCC to regulate the broadcast networks and it's generally frowned upon to murder presidential candidates. So I. I don't see the equivalence.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

If they say it's misinformation, like conservatives using misinformation to try to go after political opponents. You.

[Michael Knowles]

Yeah, there's. There's no. There's no.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

But does the ends justify the beans.

[Michael Knowles]

Just because when you say the end, you do it. When you're asking me if the ends justify the means, you're suggesting there's a kind of hypocrisy here. There is no hypocrisy to the FCC regulating broadcast networks. That's the point. There's no hypocrisy to the Secretary of Health and Human Services changing out his staff. That's what he does.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

They have never done this.

[Michael Knowles]

Yes, they have. Cabinet secretaries change out their stuff all.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

The time to remove major broadcasters.

[Michael Knowles]

I want to have the fcc. The FCC has this. The. The FCC has the statutory authority and responsibility to regulate the networks, including in cases of inciting public harm. And, and by the way, there is no right of a news network to affiliate stations and there's no right of a news network or a comedy network so called to. To lie, to tell egregious lies on public airwaves. If Jimmy Kimmel wants to do that on a podcast, he might get better ratings than he does on his network television show, which is in the doldrums. But he has no right to do it on public airwaves ways. And there's no hypocrisy.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

There's no double standard thing silencing people for saying lies. What is a lie? What is truth?

[Michael Knowles]

You know, a lie is the opposite of the truth. And what is truth is what Pontius Pilate asked to Christ before he sentenced him to the cross. It's the line of a cynic that surrenders his reason.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

He never said anything untrue. He was quoting the governor of Utah who said this person didn't come.

[Michael Knowles]

Jimmy Kimmel never said anything untrue.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

A different country.

[Michael Knowles]

Jimmy Kimmel never said anything. Jimmy Kimmel said that the shooter was a MAGA Republican and that's a lie. There's no evidence of us.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

And he quoted public is. Look, we can debate on what we.

[Michael Knowles]

Don'T have to debate. It's a lie. It's an obvious and egregious lie. We don't need to pretend that this is complicated at all. The shooter. The shooter was a radical left wing activist who inscribed antifa slogans on the bullets and was dating a transfer boyfriend. I don't think he voted for Trump. Kimmel lied. The audience turned on him. The affiliates turned on him. He deserves to lose his job. I'm frankly disappointed that he's getting his job again, but I'm confident even fewer people will watch it this time.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

That's not what I'm saying. I'M glad you understood my point.

[Michael Knowles]

What. What are you saying there? I guess I don't understand, like, engaging with my point.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

I thought the whole point of this was not.

[Michael Knowles]

I thought. I thought you just said that Jimmy Kimmel didn't lie. Isn't that what you said? I think that's what you said.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Jimmy Kimmel didn't. First off, he's a. Okay. Okay. Even if we. We're not gonna go on like, every single word and analyze it, but if we're going to put people off the air for lying, that is a dangerous place to be in. That is a dangerous.

[Michael Knowles]

I don't know. I just think that's what public airwaves do. We already have the right to do it. We should.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Something is true because. Right. Right now.

[Michael Knowles]

Well, I guess. I think.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

No, it's a slight.

[Michael Knowles]

It's a. I think I can get to the heart. I think I can get to the heart of the. Of the point that you might be endeavoring to make, which is you're. You're asking how can we discern the difference between truth and lies? Who's to say what is fit for the public airwaves and what is not fit? Who's to say who's to say what is true? And I guess my answer to that and the traditional American answer to that is someone, someone's going to say that. You and I can say that we have a representative government in principle. We have a self government. And so we must have confidence in our reason, our ability to discern the difference between truth and falsehood, right and wrong. If we surrender that ability out of moral relativism, out of a squishy kind of cowardice, out of a lack of confidence in ourselves, then what we aren't doing is necessarily. Necessarily is surrendering self government and the entire American project. Many people would like to do that. I'm not willing to do that. I think we can tell the difference between right and wrong, truth and lies. We should promote the truth. We should suppress the lies, and we should have a good country.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

We shouldn't surrender that to the government. We shouldn't have the.

[Michael Knowles]

What is. I thought we had a self government.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

What is true and what is not true.

[Michael Knowles]

We necessarily do that by having a judiciary, for instance. We necessarily do that by having legislators who are making moral judgments. When we say that we have a self government, then what we're saying is that the government in some way is reflecting our view of things and it comes from our reason.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

We also have. Yeah, we have a judiciary and a Congress.

[Michael Knowles]

Not just the president in a. What? I didn't catch the end of that. Okay, I think the point has been made.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

Well.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I'm just going to start this out by saying that I wrote this in the end of August, obviously before Charlie's passing. So this was a question for him. But I do think it's important to read and I did make an edit to it on 9 11, so I will read that as well. But my name's Maria and I'm going to skip over some things that just for the sake of time, I do believe labels are too emphasized. But in this scenario, I do believe it's important for the context. First and most importantly, I'm a child of God and I believe that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior. I hope that for every person here as well. I was born in a very poor country. I was adopted when I was young, and I'm a poster child for anybody who says that they should have been aborted. For the left, I'm very pro life. I was previously and shockingly very pro choice, and I was almost forced into abortion later in life. And I've also had really horrible experiences with Planned Parenthood to go off of that. My question that, and you kind of touched on it today, was about the death penalty and being pro life. Ironically enough, the edit I made to this note on 911 was, and I'm going to read this very candidly, but I will censor it. It says, f this the death penalty is great and I hope we use it on that guy. F everything.

[Michael Knowles]

I think many people agree.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I will say that I do see the difference between an innocent baby in the womb and a murderer or an assassin. But I do still feel like we are playing as humans. We're playing judge, jury and executioner instead of God. I do believe that God has a plan for all of us, and when we die, we either go to heaven or hell and he will have the ultimate justice and make everyone, especially martyrs, answer for their sins. What would you say to that?

[Michael Knowles]

Well, we do play judge, jury and executioner. We're the only people who can play that because we live in a society. And so we need judges. We need judges to decide lawsuits. We need judges to decide criminal cases and to protect the innocent. We have juries. We're lucky that we have jury trials in our system and we have executioners because there's nothing intrinsically evil about the death penalty. Some people make arguments from prudence that it might no longer be necessary in our advanced society. Though I'm skeptical since we frequently let criminals off the hook. And there are calls from mainstream politicians to abolish prisons. So I actually think that prudential argument is a bit weaker today than it was even decades ago. But St. Paul tells us that the civil authority does not bear the sword in vain. We know that throughout history, at least for the mackerel snapping papists out here, there have been popes. Not only who, there's some out here in Minnesota. We know for the Catholics in the crowd that we know that there are popes who not only defended the death penalty, but actually carried them out, including Blessed Pius IX, who carried out some 500 executions in the Papal states. So I don't think one could say it's intrinsically evil. I don't think we would call St. Paul a murderer. And it gets to the question of what punishment is for. You know, punishment has three purposes. The first one is retribution. It's because you do something wrong. We don't put people in prison or on death row simply because they have some bad habits. You know, we could all use a little rehabilitation. I'm sure that's not the reason you go to jail. It's because you did something. So there's retribution for what you did. The second purpose is deterrence and obviously protecting the public. Maybe we loop that in. But then another purpose is rehabilitation. We want to correct these errors in people because it's actually cruel to the criminals to let them persist in their degradation. It's very harmful to their lives and ultimately to their souls. So we want to correct them. This is an argument that goes back to Plato, if not further back. There's a line from Dr. Johnson who says, depend upon it, sir, when a man knows he's to be hanged in a fortnight, it concentrates his mind wonderfully. That actually when a man is facing death, it can focus him. It can cause him to think more deeply on spiritual matters. It can actually help to rehabilitate his soul. For this and all of the other reasons, the death penalty has never been thought of as an intrinsic evil. And it can be called for. If you say, then we're playing God. Well, are we not playing God when we sentence someone to 30 years in prison? Are we not playing God when we enact any other kind of justice, when we pass any other kind of laws? No, what we're doing is recognizing that God gives certain authority to the, to the civil government for our good. Because we live in society, we're a political creature, and we are going to live that way somehow. And so we Might as well do it for the common good. That's a responsibility that falls on human beings. We do it to the best of our ability. We ask for God's grace in that. But we can't shirk the responsibility because the alternative is chaos and disorder and there's nothing Christian about that. Lowes knows how to get you ready for holiday hosting with up to 35% off select home decor and get up to 35% off select major appliances. Plus members get free delivery hallway, basic installation parts and a two year Lowe's protection plan. When you spend $2,500 or more on select LG major applied appliances. Valid through 101 member offer. Excludes Massachusetts, Maryland, Wisconsin, New Jersey and Florida. Installed by independent contractors. Exclusions apply. See lowe's.com for more details.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I definitely my mind has been changed all lot on the death penalty even this last week. But I just, I, I just have a hard time because I think that if we're putting someone to death, I think we might not have known what the plan that God had for them was because we, whoever what it was, it was.

[Michael Knowles]

But maybe the plan was that we kill him through the civil authority.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

Sorry, say that again.

[Michael Knowles]

Maybe, maybe the plan was that we, through our civil authority, bring him to trial and convict him of a capital offense and execute capital punishment. Why is that precluded from God's plan? Why is that the one thing that we're not allowed to do? You know, I understand the, the fear and the awe in the face of God of interfering with God's plans. It's very difficult to interfere with God's plans. The only way, the only thing you can do is to oppose God. And God is still going to win in the end. You can oppose God when you see sin, when you commit an act of evil. There is nothing that I see about the death penalty that is intrinsically evil. And so I think your conscience is clear on that matter and on anything else you might say, well, I had a burrito for lunch. What if God wanted me to have a hamburger? You know, he might have, I don't know. We have to ask for God's grace. We have to use our reason to discern his will as best we can. And we have to use our abilities to cooperate with, with God's will. And we do that prayerfully and we hope for the best. I don't think there's something magical about capital punishment that excludes that from all the rest of human action.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

The last thing I'll say is I think again, this is a controversial topic, but I do believe that abortion isn't correct in any case. And a lot of times that includes rape, incest, all. All of those things.

[Michael Knowles]

But.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I will say that a lot of times, even I have used this before. We say that we don't justify evil with evil. And I. Again, I'm feeling so difficult about this, but I feel like we're choosing evil, you know, or.

[Michael Knowles]

So if you. If you think the death penalty is evil, then I could see how you would arrive at that conclusion. But I wonder, you're a Christian, I take it.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I am.

[Michael Knowles]

So then how could you conclude that the death penalty is evil? When St. Paul writes in the letter to the Romans that the civil authority is given to us for our own good and does not bear the sword in vain, how could you conclude from that that the death penalty is evil when he says that it's appointed by God?

[Maria (Audience Member)]

I hadn't thought about it like that.

[Michael Knowles]

There you go. All right, I helped in one way. Charlie would have taken care of that five minutes ago. It takes me a little longer, but I'm glad I could help in some way.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

Thank you so much for your time.

[Michael Knowles]

Thank you. Thanks. Charlie would have gotten through that in 15 seconds.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Hey, Michael, want to thank you for taking your time out of your night to come here. And I know you have a pretty chaotic travel schedule, especially coming from Phoenix yesterday. However, coming from a devoted Christian who gave his life to Christ in 10th grade, which was the best decision I've ever made in my life. I just want to ask. I went through high school in a very liberal institution, and I'm now at a very liberal institution for college. How can I go about defending my faith in such a liberal state and a liberal institution?

[Michael Knowles]

Oh, it's. You're so lucky. You're so lucky because you got fish in a barrel. You got you. I strongly suspect, living in our modern culture, you've heard the arguments for atheism, you've heard the arguments for liberalism and all manner of disorder. You've heard them, you've decided they're wrong. And you've come to a different conclusion. When you go to a liberal university, especially in a liberal state, these people have simply never heard the other side. And I can speak a little personally to this, because when I arrived at university, liberal university, from a liberal state into another liberal, liberal state, I called myself an atheist. And I met a lot of atheists who were smarter than me. And I met Christians and I met Jews, and I met all sorts of people who believed in God. And who I noticed made much better arguments than the atheists. And I think all you really have to do is just figure out what the person's holdup is. For me, it was an intellectual hubris. And so the way to start cracking that was, was the intellectual arguments for God could be the five ways of St. Thomas Aquinas, could be the ontological argument. There are many, many good arguments for God. If someone hates God because, I don't know, she hates her dad or something like that, you know, liberalism, then you can. If that's the case, then you speak in a personal way and you speak in a way that gets at that kind of family dynamic. If you're speaking to someone who's been raised in heretical and erroneous religion and is arguing not against God, but a false conception of God, then you correct that heresy. But you have to be, as St. Paul says, all things to all men for their good. And when you're in a liberal university like that, you're going to be speaking to people who have very likely never considered your arguments. It's going to be layup after layup. Man, that's great. Congratulations.

[Audience Member Challenging Michael Knowles]

Thank you so much.

[Michael Knowles]

I love. You know, the premise of the question is, how do I defend my faith here? Forget about defending your faith. Think about advancing your faith. The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. That means the church is moving. It's on the advance.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

Hi, Michael. My name is Brian Brooke. And I was trying not to come up here and cry, but I guess I'm going to anyway.

[Michael Knowles]

I almost lost it at the top of my speech, too. And I do this for a living. It's very difficult these days.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

That makes me feel better. Thank you. I had the privilege to see Charlie last year while he was in Madison, and I didn't go up and speak to him. And I really wish I would have told him that he's one of my.

[Maria (Audience Member)]

Heroes, but you are, too.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

So I just wanted to say thank you for that. I've been listening to your show every day, and that's been helping me.

[Michael Knowles]

So.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

But my question, I do have a question, actually, is I was just gonna.

[Michael Knowles]

Leave it on the compliment, that's all.

[Brian Brooke (Audience Member)]

No, it's a good question, though, because I love you. So my question question is in a state that's so liberal, and so many of our churches are really liberal, I'm not sure where I'm supposed to go to find good leadership, because I just went to the Lutheran church where I grew up and where I was confirmed and they kind of glossed over Charlie Kirk and went straight into talking about, like, Melissa Hortman and other things that are obviously tragedies too. But they just glossed over Charlie Kirk and that doesn't align with my values glossing over somebody who died for his religion. And so I'm just wondering, how do I find a church here? Is it just trial and error or what do I do?

[Michael Knowles]

Everyone's just offering suggestions. Come to my church. No, come to my church. Come. I. I'm no expert on Lutheranism, I gotta admit. However, in. In my experience as a Catholic, there are plenty of bad homilies and pretty liberal churches with all that sappy music from the 70s and the Birkenstocks and we don't have to get into it, but it happens. And sometimes the homilies are half the Communist Manifesto or something, and it's really frustrating. However, in the Catholic understanding of things, which is a sacramental theology, we believe in the Eucharist, the real presence of Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity in the sacrament. Good thing to applaud. So that helps us get through bad homilies. I've been blessed with very good pastors, but that helps you get through bad homilies. And so, you know, with a more sacramental theology like the mainline Protestant churches, that might help you through bad, bad homilies. In the more non denominational churches, you're out of luck. I don't know. You got to find a good pastor, I guess, because the whole thing is about the sermon. But I would say ask yourself why you're going. And the answer to me is I don't go to church primarily to hear a good lecture. I love lectures. I listen to a million religious lectures all the time. But I go there to worship, which is a different kind of act in a way. It's sort of the distinction between the temple and the synagogue. And so I go there for an act of worship. And I think that if you, if you seek churches that understand what the service even is, that have that different understanding, I think a lot of the rest of it is going to follow. And in our modern culture, I don't think there's anything bad about going to the church across town, because what's going to happen over time is those liberal churches are going to peter out because people are showing up on Sunday for something different.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

You're listening to Leaffilter Radio and the guru of gutter protection himself, Chris Counahan, is here to take your most pressing leaf related questions.

[Chris Counahan]

Hey, everybody. Chris here. I understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

[Michael Knowles]

Uh.

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

Oh, Ron, are you calling from a ladder?

[Ron (Caller)]

Well, I was. I wanted to ask Chris what I need to do to get my gutters ready to have leaffilter installed.

[Chris Counahan]

Oh, Ron, you don't have to do anything. A leaffilter trusted pro will come out and clean out your gutters, realign and seal your gutters and install leaffilter America's number one gutter protection system.

[Ron (Caller)]

So I didn't need to get on this ladder.

[Chris Counahan]

Ron, leaffilter trusted pros are in your neighborhood and ready to help. Just visit leaffilter.comday to schedule your free gutter inspection and get up to 30% off.

[Ron (Caller)]

Thank goodness. What was that site?

[Chris Counahan (Leaffilter Radio Host)]

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[Michael Knowles]

This is an iHeart podcast.