← Real English Conversations Podcast – Real English for Global Professionals | Speak Clearly & Confidently at Work
Real English Conversations Podcast – Real English for Global Professionals | Speak Clearly & Confidently at Work
🎙️Real Business English Communication Strategies with Maryam Shoja & Matt Gardner | Real English Conversations Podcast for Global Professionals
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- [00:01]
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
This is the Real English Conversations podcast where we help you to communicate clearly
- [01:37]
Curtis Davies
and confidently in the conversations that matter most in the workplace and your professional life. Hey everyone, it's Curtis Davies here from the Real English Conversations podcast, the show that helps global professionals to speak clearly and confidently at work. This week's episode is special because I have not one but two people joining me on the podcast and we're going to be talking about something every global, global professional depends on but rarely stops to examine how we think, how we learn, how we collaborate, and how storytelling influences everything we do. Joining me today are the two brilliant minds behind modhob Cooperative, a creator led producers collective designing regenerative systems for learning, collaboration and community resilience. They are the co creators of Plotweaver Cards of Creation, an innovative storytelling system that blends play, structure and emotional intelligence to help people generate stories, explore identity and reflect together. It's a tool built for educators, teams, collaborators and anyone who wants to strengthen communication and creativity. My guests are Miriam Shojat, a learning systems designer, educator, strategist and English language coach with 16 plus years of experience building inclusive and neurodivergent friendly learning environments
- [03:03]
Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
and some of them went to high
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Curtis Davies
school with Matt Gardner, a product design strategist, UX researcher and systems thinker with 20 years of experience transforming complex problems into clear human centered solutions. Together they're building systems that treat people as co creators, not consumers. Empowering groups to collaborate, reflect and imagine better futures together. Miriam and Matt, welcome to the Real English Conversations podcast. I'm excited for you guys to showcase what your creative talents about.
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
So welcome to the show.
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Matt Gardner
Thank you for having us.
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Matt Gardner (continued)
Yes, happy to be here.
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Curtis Davies
Excellent. Let's start here. Modhob is described as a creator led producers cooperative designing regenerative learning systems for listeners new to this idea. How do you explain what modhob is and what inspired you both to create it?
- [03:56]
Matt Gardner
Okay, so ModHub is short for modern hobbies. So the reason why is when we choose to participate in an activity, we often get much more out of it than we do with a transactional exchange. Like whether it's at a band or a sports team or a club, the activities based on passion often have way more intrinsic motivation than an obligation. Right. So modhub came from a pretty simple realization. There's a lot of talented people who are getting burnt out. They're boxed in or pushed out. Especially like creatives, knowledge workers, educators, neurodivergent folks, generalist, Jacksonville trade. But the systems we're offered are usually like competitive. They're not cooperative, they're extractive and not fair and they're optimized to maximize profit then lift everyone up. So we asked, what if we stopped waiting for the system to make room for us and build a better system ourselves? So that's the heart of it. ModHub exists because we believe effective change happens when we put common purpose above. Above individual profit. And we want to prove you can do that to build real products and make real income and have real community without sacrificing ethics or people or the planet.
- [05:16]
Curtis Davies
Very creative there as well. And that naturally leads us into the tool at the center of our conversation today. Plotweaver Cards of creation. This blends creativity, structure and storytelling in a really unique way. What problem or gap were you trying to solve when you first began designing? Designing it.
- [05:35]
Miriam Shojat
I can take this one. So, like following on what Matt was saying earlier, these days we live in a world that's facing polari polarization, burnout and disconnection. In our classrooms, in our boardrooms, we often find ourselves having to navigate misinformation. We have to navigate mental health crises and fractured communities rapidly shifting. And like immersing immersive, immersive emergent technologies. So to overcome these challenges, I think we need to strengthen our abilities to be able to see the big picture and to connect the dots. We want to be able to communicate clearly and tell stories that resonate with a lot of people. We want to be able to collaborate with, purpose and exchange meaningful feedback. We need to regulate our emotions and voice the thoughts that truly matter. And we also want to be able to embrace multiple perspectives and transform that conflict into connection. Now, plotweaver as a storytelling system, it helps people create stories without getting stuck. Now by combining getting stuck by combining a playful card draw with just enough structure to turn your ideas into actual narrative. So how does storytelling help overcome all of those challenges that I mentioned earlier? Storytelling facilitates in groups. It facilitates social connection. Storytelling is joyful in groups. It helps you create authentic bonds with other people. And we've observed this every time in the moments of reflection and every time that we play the game. It also provides emotional insights, meaning that the prompts are reflective and associative, so they deepen our understanding of ourselves and others. It also provides you with the whole holistic view because we are using plot patterns to build the stories, and the plot patterns show players how different parts connect together into a system. Also, playing like storytelling also helps you gain creative connection, sorry, creative confidence with. First of all, plotweaver helps you solve the problem of the blank page. And so it helps you create without freezing or overthinking. It also allows you to create a story every time, no problem, prior skills required. And finally helps you practice narrative design, which means, which centers around shaping meaning and perception through narratives.
- [08:26]
Curtis Davies
I love the guided approach that, that simplifies things. And at the heart of your work, something I also love is the inclusivity of, of what you're doing. Both intentionally design systems that are care based and neurodivergent friendly. How did inclusivity shape Plotweaver and the things that you do with modhob? And what are. What early feedback have you received from the pilots that you've been running?
- [08:54]
Matt Gardner
So I can field this one, one, one line that always strikes me. I think it's, I'm not too sure. I've heard in some aboriginal languages the word for autistic actually means in one's time and space. And this has always been something that kind of resonated with me, kind of echoed because it's true. In simple terms, we want to create psychological safe spaces for participants to be themselves, you know, so we celebrate that neurodiversity. We want to make sure that more perspectives are included in conversations. So inclusivity shape both ModHop and Plotweaver by making the frameworks open to interpretation, the flexible structures that allow for deviation, as well as being able to participate in different ways so people can contribute without pressure. And the biggest response we see is relief. People feel like they can be creative without the need to perform. And without someone dominating the conversation, you know, it makes space.
- [09:56]
Curtis Davies
Everyone feels included, everyone feels that they can participate, and it brings that level of comfort into the conversation, into the story. That's fascinating. And speaking of these early pilots, let's look at how this tool will be used in the future. Plotweaver will be used by so many different people, teams, classrooms, friends and communities. Once the full launch is complete, based on your early pilots, how do you see this tool helping groups build connection, empathy, or better collaboration?
- [10:29]
Miriam Shojat
I can build on what Matt was saying earlier about, you know, how it makes, how the game creates an inclusive space. Now, plotweaver builds empathy by helping by structuring the entire experience around creat, creative thinking and active listening. So people are really hearing each other's stories as they're getting built act by act. And there's also. We also have embedded reflective moments and reflection in the gameplay. So exchanging thoughts and reflection is built into the flow. So listening along becomes very important. And because you are not just reflecting on your own story, you are also reflecting on other people's stories. Now, these reflecting moments has helped slow down the group and people and help people absorb what was said and not just wait for their turn. Also, people are building the story, as I said, act by act. So everyone participates in shaping, participate in making sense of the stories as they take shape. I can also add that another way that plotweaver builds empathy. So in summary, if I want to say, plotweaver builds empathy by helping people practice seeing through each other's lenses. And it also strengthens collaboration between people because feedback and reflection is embedded in the gameplay and it encourages the players to shape meaning together.
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Curtis Davies
Wow, you've thought of everything. That's great. To blend it all together and to make it work. What I find fascinating is that behind storytelling, there's a deeper layer, systems thinking. Systems thinking is often seen as complex or academic. How does plotweaver help everyday people, not just specialists, engage with systems thinking in
- [12:34]
Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
a simple, practical and accessible way?
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Matt Gardner
Well, systems thinking, in my opinion, is like the bird's eye view, right? It allows us to get above things and see how things are connected. Gives us space. We can see the problem space as A whole, and then choose to improve the pattern if we want, not just treat the symptoms, which often only just silences the feedback. That's the problem. You can have hidden problems because it's like, oh, we're just going to shut that feedback up. So narratives and stories, as we mentioned before, are sense making so that it helps us understand the system in plain language. It helps us surface up the ripple impacts of cause and effect and the trade offs that were made along the way, as well as the massive amounts of contradictory feedback loops. And sometimes it's like, how can these two things be the same? Well, they can, they're just from different perspectives of the same system. So by using like the plot patterns, they're similar to what Peter Senge refers to as systems archetypes. And this helps us see repeating dynamics and answer the why this is happening. And by using fiction or metaphor, we're creating a safe distance for the reflection without forced vulnerability or biases coming in which then make these complex ideas feel more relatable, I guess, and like playful and memorable. We have to accept that we live in systems both natural and man made, and we need to learn how to see them because often as participants it's hard to see beyond our own limited perspectives. We're like bugs in beautifully designed rugs and we just don't see the patterns that we live in. So it's just, it's basically a perspective shift.
- [14:27]
Curtis Davies
And since many of my listeners are business professionals, educators, coaches, people in high stakes positions all over the world for teachers, trainers, language coaches and facilitators. How can Plotweaver support learning communication skills and ideas, identity exploration in a classroom
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
or a workshop situation?
- [14:48]
Miriam Shojat
Well, I can say that for educators, traders and language coaches, and everyone in between who works in education and professional development, leadership development can say that Podweaver works prompts for human intelligence. That's one way we put it. And it provides the building blocks to create scenarios. It's a creative activity that can be done by one person solo or in groups. So the experience. So for a facilitator it provides a repeatable format for 45, 60 minutes, up to two hour sessions. The plot patterns provide a clear and coherent sequence for the events, so the trainer doesn't have to think about anything for the entire activity. And the story element cards externalize what to say next for the participants. So that reduces that, as we said earlier, the blank page anxiety and also helps the quieter learners to participate and engage without being put on the spot. Also, participants pick up these prompts to get them started and they always have the permission to interpret them creatively and imagine. So practice feels delightful and personalized. So if I want to like summarize in in two, two main kind of aspects that it, it can help that Cloudberg can be used in, in learning for learning purposes. Primarily, it helps with communication skills. It's great for language learning, vocabulary, grammar and retelling, role playing, creative, like confidence, speaking confidently. So it teaches you speaking skill, summarizing, asking clarifying questions, saying yes. And it helps you with your listening skills. You are primarily listening to other people's stories. You are paraphrasing, you're reflecting on the meaning and you're checking your assumptions. You can also practice writing. You're writing coherent story arcs. You learn how to transition and shape tone and voice in your stories and finally can practice sense making by, you know, aligning shared meaning, by negotiating choices, by building on even other people's ideas. On another level, Plotweaver, playing Plotweaver helps learners to explore their identity and social emotional learning. For example. On another level, playing Plotweaver also helps learners with identity exploration and practicing social emotional learning. And by that I mean that when you think about values and motivations while creating your stories, you're asking yourself, what does this character want? And you and this often becomes kind of a proxy for actual real feelings of the players. You can practice perspective taking. So you ask yourself, how would someone else interpret this moment? You also, I can say explore, as I said, making meaning. So what changed them? What did they learn? What do they hope for? And as Matt said earlier, in stories we use metaphors to create distance so people can explore sensitive themes without being forced to disclose too much or be vulnerable.
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Curtis Davies
You've got all the bases covered. It's a comfortable way to create a story, that's for sure. You're never going to be stuck for what to say next. And you can feed off of each other and get even more interesting and
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
evolved stories out of it.
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Miriam Shojat
One of our participants in one of the latest Play On Ponders. Play On Ponders are our play testing sessions. We call them Play and Ponder. So she said the first thing she said at the end of the game in the moments of reflection was this is magic. And she's also a writer. She's been attending lots of writing courses. So yes, and I hope we can back it up. When people play it, they'll see for themselves.
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Matt Gardner
Yes, a tendency for people to think, wow, those cards feel like they fit. And like because the story element cards are pulled by random. And so when people get them. It often is a surprise, like how well that fit in together. So it's like tarot cards, I guess, in a way, because it's random, but it helps make sense. So I think, yeah, it's pretty funny when you see that, how people are like, it's just new. And it's like, yeah. And it's. It's like it's just random. But yeah, yeah.
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Miriam Shojat
And then in the end you say, oh, it fits so perfectly.
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Matt Gardner
Which is amazing when you think about it. Like, we have. It'll be 195 cards with the, like when it shipped, plus the six plot patterns. So each time. I've never had the same set of cards ever at the same time. And you even roll for the plot pattern, so everything's random. You have to live with it.
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Curtis Davies
That's a cool concept, though. You never know what to expect at random.
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Miriam Shojat
Exactly. So you don't know the end of your story. Even when you start. You better not know it because you might have to change your thinking.
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Curtis Davies
Now let's talk about the impact across your work in design education. Facilitation. What is one memorable or transformational moment you've seen during one of these games?
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
A plot Weaver Pilot or one of
- [20:29]
Curtis Davies
the projects that you're doing when you're playing something that really stayed with you?
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Matt Gardner
I think for me it's. This is a common occurrence, but it never, never gets old is seeing people who claim that they're not writers or they're not creative, and then they turn around and surprise everyone, including themselves, with like this amazing story. And what's weird is it's the people who are. Or more kind of writers and stuff actually tend to not have as surprising of stories as the ones who are not writers. And one lady's story that she was on one of the first, I think, early play and ponders, she wrote a story. It was a magic realism story, but it was about seeing oneself. And I think I've listened to that story now five, six times, and every time it gives me the feeling. And she was one of those people who she. She lives in Colombia. She's like, I don't think English is her first language. And she's like, oh, I'm not much of a story writer and get that story every time. Like, I get little goosebumps and. And it's just so beautiful and I. I wish everyone could hear it. And. And so there's also this tendency where you see the group dynamic completely change, where people kind of lean into each other's stories and they get fascinated about it and because it's more like kind of a group solitaire, like because you're doing your own thing, you're writing your own story for 15 minute chunks that when you do kind of speak it out, everyone's kind of listening in and everyone's just very appreciative of each other's stories. And a lot of times it's people who've never met each other before. Like, we're getting groups of people who never interacted and so they relax and they come down and people walk away kind of feeling lighter in a way, like they feel like they've gotten something. So for me, I think that's the one thing that never gets old. And it's probably part of the reason we believe in this so much, because when you see that change in behavior, it's pretty incredible. I think Maryam can speak to that a little bit more, especially like she's had. Well, she got to experience it the first time when she first came up with it, and then. And again it's throughout. So I'll pass that over to you, Mariam.
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Miriam Shojat
Yes. Yeah. Two of the most standout moments for me and experiences with playing Cloudburger with other people. The first time was the very first time that we had a virtual play on Ponder with a group of. A couple of them were educators, but others were just friends of one of our colleagues. So we'd never met them before. Hearing the amazing and profound stories that they created in such a short amount of time and, and then witnessing their joyful reflection and reaction. In the end, it, it reminded me of the laughter and the, the fun that some of my own classmates experienced when the first time, the very first time that we did a, a test of this very early version of the game, which actually came out of a, a group project I had with some classmates at Concordia University in Montreal. Masters in Educational Technology. The story, that storytelling tabletop game, that laughter and the joy that they experienced at the end of it made me keep the game and, you know, never let go of it. Until a couple of years ago, I brought it up to Matt and we looked at it, you know, from a new lens and added the plot patterns and made it, you know, what the game is today. I also want to mention another moment which was with the printed prototype. The last time I was in Iran, that's where I come from. The last time I was visiting, I also had the tabletop game printed in several copies. And I had the absolute pleasure of playing the game with some language learners. Well, Intermediate to advanced language learners in a language school in Iran. That's one of my colleagues or old friends from Iran has. Anyway, so we played the game with this group of learners, and this was the first time non native language speakers were playing it. And so I was kind of nervous. This was the first time I was also hosting the printed game. But I will never forget the positive and the glowing reaction of these participants at the end of the game and during the game. Like, their challenges was so fun to watch.
- [25:15]
Matt Gardner
And it's amazing because the language at the beginning is very monotone. Everyone's kind of a little stilted, and they were kind of nervous. And then by the end, they're like a bubbling brook of just excitement. There was so much happiness. They were laughing and giggling and like, kind of reflecting on each other's stories. It was just so beautiful to see because they were so nervous at first. And. Yeah, so I didn't see it. I just heard it. But, like, from what Miriam told me, it sounded similar to what I was imagining in my head.
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Curtis Davies
That's when that true potential is unleashed. That's where you get the goosebumps. I get the goosebumps from my students breaking that fear, breaking the nerves, and then the fluency just naturally comes in and you get the goosebumps. You're so proud of that student. So I can totally relate to your. Your inspirational stories of what you've seen with native speakers and non native speakers to truly, you know, they might think in their head when they start playing, oh, I'm not good at this. I'm gonna suck at this. And then within minutes, really quickly, that potential is. Is unleashed. That, oh, I. I'm doing it right now.
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
Is unleashed.
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Curtis Davies
And. And you guys are so proud of the people that are engaged and, and playing these games with you.
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
How can you not be proud of them?
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Miriam Shojat
Right? Right. Yeah. And they're proud of themselves. Like, the sense of happiness and pride of achieving, like telling a story from the beginning to the end, just in a short amount of time, purely out of their imagination, because the prompts give you enough to get started, but you bring your own. Your own meaning to them. So, yeah, that pride and happiness is something I'll always. That'll always stay with me.
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Curtis Davies
Outstanding. Let's wrap this up with something actionable for the listeners, for global professionals who want to become. Become better storytellers, collaborators or communicators. What is one practice or mindset shift they can start using today to communicate
- [27:17]
Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
more meaningful at work or in their personal lives?
- [27:20]
Miriam Shojat
Well, I can Start with that. And then, Matt, I think you can continue from all these play and ponders and reflective moments and reflective feedback that we've seen people share. Some of some things that I can recommend is that we need to like, it's best to shift from the perspective of being right to being curious. Meaning that you, you can, you need to ask clarifying and value based questions. So seek understanding. Another point is that you try and reflect on what you heard before responding. So one way you can do it is repeating what you heard in your own words. So you say, so what I'm hearing is to make sure that you can check your assumptions. You can also try to focus on the needs and intentions when someone expresses something and not try to look for accusations. So instead of making excisions, we can say, I need some clarity on this, I'm worried about that. And we can also try to focus on just asking simple questions that help you deepen your understanding of what another person says. So by asking what matters to you most when you say this or when you hear this, I'm going to pass it on to Matt.
- [28:43]
Matt Gardner
Yeah, and I think as well, like bringing it kind of to the game, I think that the game also helps you kind of practice listening for those plot patterns. You'll start seeing them in everything you watch. It's amazing, I can't watch now any franchise television without going, oh, that was a frame tale. That was an inverted plot pattern. And also kind of seeing the archetypes, because that was the whole point was we really kind of strip storytelling down to its patterns and its elements so that we're putting them all out on the table. And when you do that, what happens is you start seeing those in your news stories. You start seeing the narratives that are all around us every day. And you realize, oh, these are stories. If I can write a story, maybe I can be heard. Maybe I can impact change on the world. And so when people have the ability to kind of tell their story, they're also able to tell what needs that they have. And so that helps with what Miriam's saying here. Like, it allows people to understand you when you are speaking so you can clarify yourself when being asked. You can have these back and forths. And that's what storytelling really allows. The more confident you get with storytelling, the more confident you get with being able to address your own needs, concerns, and your own agency.
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Curtis Davies
No, that's powerful and incredibly relevant for anyone listening to this podcast right now. Miriam and Matt modhub Collective. This has been an inspiring and thought provoking conversation. The work you're Both doing through ModHub and Plotweaver is opening up new possibilities for creativity, learning and human connection.
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Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
Thank you for sharing your systems, the inspiration behind all of this, your process
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Curtis Davies
and your passion behind it as well. Where can my audience you and learn more about the modhob Collective and stay updated on the Plotweaver launch.
- [30:42]
Matt Gardner
Well for everything modhob like it even has things about plotweaver everything you can
- [30:48]
Matt Gardner (continued)
go to plotweavergame.com you can join our mailing list so you won't miss an update on the Plotweaver project and other things that we do at ModHub like our upcoming live storytelling events behind the scenes and updates on on the development of the online interactive version of the game. On the same website, plotweavergame.com you can also find the link to our GameFound crowdfunding campaign which will be launched in the spring. By backing that campaign, you will own the first limited edition copies of the game and help us fund the first print of the tabletop version. If you follow the Game Found campaign now now you will take advantage of the 10% early backer discount on your entire pledge when the campaign goes live. We are always happy to meet and collaborate with creators, storytellers, educators and anyone who wants to explore what it's like to be part of a producer cooperative that designs and builds systems for learning and play.
- [31:54]
Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
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- [32:47]
Curtis Davies
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- [32:49]
Podcast Host (Real English Conversations)
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