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Real Estate Investing School Podcast
181. Brothers in Arms to Real Estate Partners with Eric Berman and Austin Hartman
01:06:50
Welcome to the Real Estate Investing School Podcast! On this episode, host Joe Jensen welcomes Eric Berman and Austin Hartman from Berman Property Group LLC. Eric, the founder and president of the company, has a diverse background with over six years...
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- [00:00]
A
It's really akin to like building your own endowment. If you have a rental and you have a tenant in there and you don't really care that the stock market's crashing or that it's going to the moon, you just have this endowment that you've created for yourself, and I think that's.
- [00:12]
B
That's powerful.
- [00:17]
C
Welcome to the Real Estate Investing School podcast. I'm your host, Joe Jensen. Today we've got two guests for you. Eric Berman and Austin Hartman. Eric is the founder and president of berman Property Group LLC, located in Beaufort, South Carolina. With over six years in real estate and eight years in the U.S. marine Corps, Eric has a strong background in leadership and operations. He holds a BS in physics from the Citadel and is a Lean Six Sigma green belt. And then Austin. He joined Berman Property Group a little over a year ago and runs the construction operations of the company. With six years of project management experience and four years in the U.S. marine Corps, Austin brings a solid background to the team. He holds a BS in biology and an MBA in data analytics. Along with a Lean Six Sigma black belt certification, Berman Property Group has developed a portfolio of 24 rental units, has valued over $5 million, generating significant income for the company, and together they've done over 40 deals. So welcome to the show, guys. I'm excited to pick your brains.
- [01:24]
A
Thanks for having us. Yep. Thank you.
- [01:26]
C
But let's start with the most important thing. So Austin's a black belt and, and, and Eric's just. Or a green belt. So should we talk about that or is that awkward or.
- [01:37]
A
It's not awkward. I've learned to be very submissive around him.
- [01:43]
C
There you go. One way or another, by force or by choice. So that's awesome. So how long have you guys been training in that? And what is Lean Six Sigma as opposed to another art form of martial arts or whatever? I don't know much about that world, but that's the first time I've heard that phrase.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah, so that's all process improvement, agile training, ways to make our processes more efficient, faster. You can do different projects and focus on what waste can you cut out. How can you improve your company's operations? So we've, we've both gone through those types of trainings, and we still implement those ideas every single day in the company. For example, once a month, we'll have an after action meeting with all of our employees, and we'll look at, you know, which. Which process is not working so well, and we'll identify ways to improve it, you know, change it Cut it out. Perhaps. So that's just the methodology of always thinking about how to improve what changes can be made to improve your processes. And we continue to implement that in our company every day.
- [03:04]
C
That's awesome. I can tell you guys are passionate about business. So I literally thought it was like a. Like a martial arts form that I hadn't heard of yet. So I'm like, that's cool. But that's even better that it's for your business. That's great.
- [03:16]
B
You have the Marine Corps Martial Arts program. MCMAP is what it's called.
- [03:20]
C
Okay.
- [03:21]
B
I was a green belt in McMahon. I'm not sure what you were.
- [03:24]
A
I was. I was also a green belt.
- [03:26]
B
So you're like middle of the round when it came to martial arts.
- [03:30]
A
There you go. Yeah. We could. Do you want us to fight?
- [03:34]
C
Yeah. Should we just. We'll do that as the. The afternoon, so we'll just have a fight at the very end. So, um, so did you guys meet in the military then? Is that how you guys got in touch with each other?
- [03:46]
A
Yeah, we were. We were both stationed in Camp Pendleton, California. I was AAV platoon commander. He was an infantry company xo. And my platoon ended up attaching to his unit to be part of the infantry company. And so we did workups and deployed together on a ship. What was it, like a seven, eight month deployment? Something like that.
- [04:09]
B
We trained for a few months prior to deploying on a US Navy ship, and then we went on a eight month deployment through Southeast Asia in the Middle East. And all the while he was in the same stateroom as me. So we, I mean, we built PowerPoints together, we set up ops together, we trained together non stop, side by side, burning the midnight oil on this deployment, setting up advanced training in different host nations around the world. We did a lot of joint military operations with other countries. So he and I would set up some of that advanced training and then we would get off the ship and his AAV unit and my infantry company would train together with these other military units. So we did that for about a year.
- [04:59]
A
It was almost like it was almost a year and a half between workups and deployment and then. And then work down on the back end.
- [05:07]
B
Yeah, so that's how we met.
- [05:09]
C
Cool. Sounds like a good setup for you guys being able to work together in business. So let's dive into the real estate thing because you guys aren't just, you know, buying a few pieces of real estate, you know, here and there, doing a house hack and growing a small portfolio. You Guys are really running a business, like you say, even from the. The. The lean Six Sigma stuff we were talking about, like, you guys are very focused on running a business that is a real estate business. Why don't you tell us about kind of what your business model is and why you look at it so much as a business as opposed to just buying real estate.
- [05:41]
A
Well, so maybe I could go a little bit into the origins and then build up to kind of our current business and current process. The. One of. One of the initial sparks. So when we were on ship, we were in something called the Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is a bunch of Marines on a few big Navy boats that go around the world, respond to crises, or do training with foreign militaries, theater security cooperation stuff. And sometimes there's some action, and sometimes there's a lot of downtime. And when there's downtime, you're just kind of on the boat either working out or reading. And so there was a lot, a lot of downtime and reading time. And I remember Austin as well as some of the other guys were incredibly well read. Just read classics, finance books, business books, all kinds of stuff. And they got me and a few other guys interested in investing, business, all of that. I remember there was an early podcast, Mr. Money Mustache.
- [06:51]
C
I remember that like an old vlog back in the day. My dad is all about that.
- [06:57]
A
Yeah, the guy who would die this fight everywhere. Stainless frugality. Yeah. So we. It started with Mr. Money Mustache, and then it just, you know, it's. It sparked something in me to where I wanted to pursue real estate or. Or some type of investing for. To gain financial freedom. Yeah. While, you know, kind of on the side, while I was still in the Marine Corps. So fast forward, you know, we come back from deployment, I got interested in doing that. I had not bought an investment property yet, but I started consuming books, building tools. I found bigger pockets and some other media and just slowly started analyzing deals. Bought a deal, spent a year just using it as a case study. Did that again over the course of a few years, just kind of bought one a year using them as a case study, and then decided it was time to get out of the Marine Corps. When I had my first kid and decided to dive in to real estate investing full time, to really just make it the end state was, I want to build a portfolio of rentals, and then I'll use flips as a way to generate lump sums of cash to help buy more property. And so that was the genesis of building a business. I think we Filed for articles of organization in 2018, but that was the beginning. And then over time, the business has evolved into basically two arms. We have an investment arm, and we have a construction arm. I could get more into that later if you want. But essentially, there's a large portion of time where we were outsourcing all construction, and we were just. I was just the guy raising money, finding deals. And then we've gotten construction completely in house at this point. And so we view, essentially view the business as three pillars. There's acquisitions, there's conversion, and then there's disposition. Disposition. We completely outsource. So neither of us are realtors, and we don't do any property management. We did it in the beginning, but once we got to a certain number of units, the pain was too much. So we outsourced property management. And so if anything has to do with selling a property or renting a property, we outsource that to a property management partner or through realtors we work with. But, you know, I. I spend 80% of my time on acquisitions and 20% on construction, and Austin spends about 80% on construction and 20% on acquisitions. And so we kind of framed the business in that way, if that answers the question at all.
- [10:05]
C
Yeah, no, I love that. One thing I really like what you said is when you. Your first deal, you like, you're like, you kind of played with it for a year and looked at it as a case study. I think that alone is such good advice for anybody that's never bought or maybe who. Somebody's, you know, dabbling into a new area, like, oh, I'm going to try Airbnb, or I want to try a multifamily. It's like, just look at your first one as a case study. Like, dive in way deeper. That's the advice I give my students. I'm like, go in way deeper than is justified. Like, spend more time on it than is fair. If you're looking at your return, you're like, I'm spending this much time. That's crazy. It's like, that's okay. This is study. This is curriculum. This is a case study. Go in way deeper, Spend way more time than is justified, and analyze it from every angle and that you'll learn more from that than anything else. So I love that you. The way you phrase that on your first deal. That's great. And then, yeah, obviously, having in house construction for, you know, for flipping and everything is money. I feel like, you know, I've done hundreds of these interviews, and almost every, like, Pain point story comes from flippers having something go south with a contractor. Like, I feel like that's 90 of issues in the real estate business. And if you can keep that in house and have a little more, you know, you know, control over that and you both have, you know, the same incentives, that, that helps a lot.
- [11:31]
A
Yeah, that's, yeah, we've felt a lot of pain from, from the outsourcing construction over the years. And it was, you know, it's hard, it can be very difficult to make that decision to, you know, to, to switch contractors or then to start your own construction company. It's a whole other business. But at some point you just have to rip the band aid off because it's, you know, it's, it's like the only option. At one, at some point.
- [12:00]
C
That's how I feel. I'm not in the flipping business. I'm more of the long hold portfolio guy. But I've always said if I was to do flips, I want to do like what you're doing, like partner with the contractor, you know, even if you build it in house or even if it's just a small like one off, like. But your motivation, your incentives need to be aligned. And you know, if a contractor is getting paid to drag this thing out and to find more issues and he'll make more money that way and it doesn't matter, that's a recipe for disaster when people's incentives aren't aligned. And so it's like, hey, the faster we do this, the more accurate we do it, the more on budget we do this, we'll both make more money. That's like, okay, now we're talking about, you know, a formula for success.
- [12:45]
B
And Joe, one thing we should emphasize is not only are we doing our own long term hold renovations, so as part of that middle conversion phase, we're doing conversions on our own. Long term rentals, maybe a short term rental or two. We're also doing flips. We've done three or four flips in the last year. But one other element of this is that we are doing construction for clients as well. So we are doing projects that are, you know, fully funded. And all the selections, design choices come not from us, but from clients. And those are anything from building a deck or a porch all the way up to, you know, a full remodel. Gut, gut job remodel for a client. So that is another aspect of this business. And what we've learned in the past year is that that forces us to get outside of our comfort zone.
- [13:41]
A
Yeah.
- [13:41]
B
Because for our own projects we have Excel spreadsheets with common materials that we'll buy. We go going back to the process improvement. You know, we have certain selections we like to put in all of our properties because it's more efficient if we just buy the same thing over and over. But when we introduce the client job, they'll have unique selections, they'll have unique needs and that forces learning upon us. And another added benefit of doing work for clients is it reduces risk for us.
- [14:14]
A
Yeah, there's also. If I could jump in just for a second. Yeah, there's. So in addition to the hedging risk, I think that's a really good point because, you know, if, if you have a. It allows us to keep subcontractors busy. Right. So in our market, it's really hard to find good workers who really care. Yeah. And once you find them, you've got to keep them employed otherwise somebody else is going to scoop them up. And so some of the larger client work has helped keep our schedules busy so that we can keep our folks busy without us taking on any risk. And a lot of the construction, the client construction work is, it's very similar to the flips in that it's lump sum payouts, whereas long term holds. Sometimes you're just getting the cash flow. Right. It's not, it's not fuel for more purchases. So we view flips and construction work as fuel to increase our portfolio holdings. So these lump sum businesses allow us to purchase more real estate and they're good hedges if we are not finding a lot of great deals. But we're still ramping up construction for clients, we can still get that lump sum capital to purchase more properties. And we've also discovered that Buford as a large retiree, wealthy retired demographic, a lot of them become our clients and a lot of them were investors who happen to have capital and turn into private lenders. So there's some good networking effect there as well.
- [15:52]
B
So not to mention we have. We're surrounded by Marine Corps bases here and be free. We got the Marine Corps Air station. We have Parris island, which is the recruit depot. So a lot of the guys we work with, guys and gals we work with, are veterans or Marines, active duty Marines. So there's a lot of good camaraderie. It's a. Definitely a good place to plant a business like this.
- [16:15]
C
Yeah, it sounds like you guys have really dialed in a niche there to be able to take advantage of what's going on in the area.
- [16:21]
A
That's super cool.
- [16:23]
C
No, I love that. So you guys, you know, you had been building this for a while, Eric, and then you brought Austin on. What was like that? You know, because a lot of people, sometimes they just want to do their own one man show. You know, what are some of the growing pains and the benefits of bringing on. You know, it sounds like he's a full on partner at this point, not just like a subcontractor, you know what I mean? It's like, what are some of the growing pains there but the benefits. And then also Austin your side of like coming in to something that somebody else has been running for a few years and like, hey, you know, here I am, let's do it this way.
- [16:59]
A
Yeah, no, that's a really good question.
- [17:01]
B
Tell my parallel story maybe and then we'll come back to the present.
- [17:04]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [17:06]
B
So I was born and raised in Kansas. Had never been to the south down here, maybe up until about a year and a half ago. But I grew up with a dad who ran a construction company. So.
- [17:20]
C
Okay.
- [17:21]
B
He transitioned into pools and spas primarily.
- [17:24]
A
Awesome. Military.
- [17:25]
B
Yeah, Also Army, Vietnam veteran. So I, I grew up doing construction, pouring concrete, forming for pools. And then throughout high school I did roofing. So I basically I would roof farmhouses out in western Kansas.
- [17:40]
C
Nice.
- [17:41]
B
Then, you know, break for college, break for Marine Corps officer training, break for the fleet. And then I found myself in Denver. That's where I was. I worked for the city of Denver for four years. And then I worked for Lockheed Martin Space. The main campus for Lockheed is out there in Denver. And that's when I went through school, got my MBA. This would have been in my late 20s. And all the while I was purchasing homes out there. So I used the VA home loan. Yeah, I think I put 15,000 down on it. Second house, I bought another rental house. I think I put zero down. It was very minimal zero or five grand down. So I use a VA loan for those two, which was a great benefit. All the while I had been talking to Eric, Eric had been sending. We have a, we have a Marine Corps.
- [18:37]
A
You have a group chat. That's not appropriate at all.
- [18:40]
B
Not, not gonna say anything about that. But all the while, every year Eric would drop into that chat and he'd go, can you guys review, you know, my investor deck, my investor presentation slides? And so in the back of my mind it was brewing this, this idea of, you know, Eric's out there crushing it in South Carolina. I was definitely interested. I just was, you know, I had my own life Going on a separate course. But all of that kind of came to a head when I ended up quitting Lockheed Martin. And I did the van life thing for about a year and a half. So I decided. I decided to peace out. Did the band life thing, did 43 or 44 states over a year and a half. And it was when I was living in a cabin in Washington state over the winter that I finally committed to the idea of moving to South Carolina and joining him in business. We had talked about it three or four times, but nothing, you know, we never actually fabricated a plan. So I came down here, this would have been last year, in March, and got my hands dirty. I jumped on a huge project that he was working on. It was a historical five unit that we also love to talk about on this podcast. And that was my first foray into construction down here in Beaufort. I'd never done anything with remodels before, anything interior, like. I've just done the roofs and the pools and spas. So there's a lot of learning for me. He definitely just threw me to the fire, said, you know, go figure it out. But knowing each other from the Marines, we knew that that would be possible. And so about two, three months into it, we formalized an operating agreement. We said, let's do this. Let's partner. We knew that with the combined power of both of us, we could scale. He had, I think you've alluded to the. The triangle, you know, to make something like this successful, it's like knowledge, time and money. He had two kids, so he was lacking on time. I had all the time in the world. I just moved down here from my traveling days. And he had money, he had capital. He also had an investor network he could tap into. And then I would say we both split the knowledge based on my past experiences. So we combined forces. We ended up hiring three people and we bought a work van. And we have really multiplied the business. We've really hit the client work hard in the past year together, he and I have purchased 20.
- [21:25]
A
20 something.
- [21:26]
B
20 units or 22 units probably at this point in the last couple of months, not to mention all the client work. We've also done probably close to a million in revenue and client work.
- [21:38]
A
I would think it's. Yeah, it's more than that now. I think so.
- [21:41]
C
Yeah.
- [21:41]
B
Just the business just expanded and just started going once. Once we kind of combined forces.
- [21:46]
C
Yeah, it sounds like the majority of it, A lot of the what you've done has been since you guys got together.
- [21:53]
B
Yeah, it's really just since I got here.
- [21:54]
A
I would say, yeah, no, I didn't do anything prior to him. I would say that he, he reminds me daily how much I suck. Yeah, he needed me. So a few points. I want to stress my perspective on the story. I got out of the Marine Corps. I was still in the Marine Corps when he had gotten out and started in Denver. And then you ended up working for Lockheed Spencer. And I remember early on, I think so I started the company in 2018. We're still going slow with like one a year. It wasn't until the end of 2019 that I had committed to getting out, you know, submitted my letter of resignation. And then at the end of 2019 I ended up getting like five or six properties under contract in the span of like two or three months. And so I was at that point fully committed. Yeah. Getting out of the Marine Corps committed to, to building this business. And I think around then I hit you up and was like, hey, what are you doing? Whatever it is, it's dumb. And joined me and he reminded me that I was dumber and that he wanted nothing to do with me. So he declined. But I would periodically try and pimp him out to come join me here. Eventually he came and visited during your van lifeing. They were like touring the entire country at one point. He came and visited.
- [23:27]
B
We were here for five weeks.
- [23:28]
A
Yeah.
- [23:29]
B
Just to get the lay of the land and see if we wanted to live in the South.
- [23:33]
A
Yeah. So that was good. I took you around to some of the properties that we had bought and projects we had done. And then you came back almost a year later and committed to joining the company.
- [23:45]
B
It's a big commitment to jump into something like this. I, Yeah, I remember we were, we were googling. We were reading books. We were.
- [23:53]
A
There's.
- [23:53]
B
There's a lot of like pitfalls with partnerships. You'll hear about a lot of things to watch out for.
- [23:58]
A
I actually wanted to talk about. I was gonna. That's where I wanted to go next was the partnership thing. So Austin and I were in the. It was me, him and two other dudes in a stateroom on a boat for basically like eight months. Right. And when we weren't on a boat, we were in the middle of a desert, still living right next to each other. And we would spend, you know, 48 hours being awake together planning and then executing missions or longer. I mean, like McCree was like a seven day event where you got like an hour of sleep a night. I mean, that sucked. So you Know, Austin got to see the best version of me and the worst version of me, and I got to see the best version of him and the worst version of him. And how we deal with, you know, I can get very cranky and I can be an asshole. He's much less of an asshole than me. But we got to see up close what our work ethic is like and what. What we act like when we're under a lot of stress. And so even though there's a lot of guys in the Marine Corps who I, you know, trust with my life, there's. I think maybe you and I could think of maybe one other guy that I would trust enough to go into business with as a. As a 50 partner. And I think one of the things that we do that I think is really important because it's almost a marriage, is, yeah, if he does something that pisses me off, I tell him right away. And if I do something that pisses him off, he tells me right away. And there's no emotion about it. We just hash it out immediately. And otherwise, I don't think it could work. And the other piece, I want to say, because I listen to your podcast, I listen to a lot of people's podcasts, and I feel like some of this topic gets glossed over. And if anybody's out there contemplating a partnership or has somebody they're working with, he was. He was here for, like, three months. We were working on stuff, and we were discussing every day, if not multiple times a week, you know, what would an equitable partnership look like? Would you get 30% and then work your way up to 50%? Do. Is it, you know, is it. You need to put in money and equity? How would we structure things? Are you getting an equity stake in the things we do together going forward? Do we formalize it in an llc? Do you create your own holding company and then join as an individual? Like, we were noodling around with ideas and discussing with attorneys and friends that we trusted. How, you know, I trust him implicitly and vice versa. But how do we do this in a way that makes sense that nobody's going to have sour grapes with, you know, five years from now? So I think a slow, deliberate approach to a partnership is probably the way to go. So that. That's kind of how it all came together, I think.
- [27:01]
C
Well, I think that's so important. Like, so you guys had such an intimate knowledge of each other's, like, inner workings, like I said, because of the time in the military and then even on top of that, you're like, okay, but this specific thing, let's still massage this out for a while and figure out the best ways to make it work. So what were some of the final decisions of the takeaways? If, you know, if people are listening to this, you know, and it's unique having both you guys on. So, you know, I apologize if we're just focusing more on partnerships than real estate, but I think it's such a vital piece that obviously most people can't share because they don't have partnerships if they're just single on it. You know, what were some of the answers to those questions of how you structured it and how, how you decided to, to split the equity and build up? What did you guys come down to?
- [27:49]
A
Well, so by the time Austin came on, I had, I had almost 20 something units on my own. I think I had like 16 or 18 properties that I had in my portfolio. And then I'd done, you know, a dozen or dozen and a half flips on my own. And so the companies I had established, the, the agreement we came up with was, you know, all this stuff that I've already created, the stuff that's in this portfolio, these, these rentals, you don't get any of that. Sure. Going forward. We created a new holding company that I'm a 50 member of, he's a 50 member of, and any new acquisitions or flips, they go into the new holding company and we're, and we're both 5050 members of this LLC and we, and we both are named as managing members. So with the same authority. I think the trust. Anybody hasn't read the speed of trust, they should, the trust factor is already there. So I need, you know, he needs me to act independently of him and vice versa. And so making each of us managing members made sense. And then construction work that we do for clients based, you know, we, we agreed 50, 50 on that and then we just, we really don't take a salary from that.
- [29:13]
B
We just reinvested into more products on retained earnings.
- [29:16]
A
Yeah. What am I missing?
- [29:18]
B
I, I went and got my own lawyer and we had an operating agreement. We may have had Chat GPT help us out with it. We do use that a lot. Yeah, I had my own lawyer review it. He has his own lawyer. I, I use mine more on an ad hoc basis. His lawyer, I should say ours at this point mainly transacts on all of our real estate deals. But I did have an independent review and you know, we had some feedback. We went back and forth, we CPAs as well. Yeah, CPAs reviewed some of these documents. We got it to a point where.
- [29:54]
A
We'Re both comfortable with, but, but in essence it's really just a multi member LLC. 50 50. And then we, you know, each of our properties we hold in a subsidiary LLC. So we have a holding company that we're 5050 on. If we buy, you know, 123 Main street tomorrow, we'll create an LLC called 123 Main Street LLC. It'll be solely owned by our holding company. And so, you know, layers of liability protection and all that. So that's, that's kind of the way we structured it.
- [30:25]
B
We have it all graphed out because it's, it's easy to get lost in all of the different entities that we have. So we, we map it out, graph it out, update it every once in a while. We've pulled in some tools from the Marine Corps that we use actually.
- [30:41]
A
Yeah, PowerPointing like.
- [30:44]
B
So we still graphically represent everything we're doing. Keeps us on track. It helps our employees as well.
- [30:53]
A
Yeah.
- [30:53]
B
So I come that's vital.
- [30:56]
C
Like I feel like so many times what holds people back from scaling on their own or with partnership is just, it just gets muddy. There's just so much going on with like, well, I don't know about this protect this LLC or this holding thing or what about this and this tax thing. And then what happens is it just slows people down because the lack of claim clarity, there's just lack of action and then they just don't do anything. And so the fact that you like put that extra like you guys are literally like, hey, we have PowerPoints, we have like presentation. We can spell it out like someone listening. Like that's a little over the top you guys. But it's like that amount of clarity creates confidence to actually move forward instead of just getting like, ah, it's gonna be make things even messier.
- [31:36]
B
Whiteboard right here. I can't tell you how many whiteboard sessions we'd had. Just.
- [31:40]
A
Yeah, okay.
- [31:41]
B
How does this tax work with that and you know, going all errors in all directions to figure this out. But once we codified it, now we just have, you know, some one sliders. We look at our employees can reference them. Like you said, clarity lends itself to confidence.
- [31:56]
A
Yeah.
- [31:57]
C
Have you found that having a partner has held you accountable to, to show up, to keep it organized and to perform better than you would on your own?
- [32:09]
A
No, I just nap all the time now.
- [32:11]
B
I've really picked up all the slack that's good. A lot more time with his family. As you should.
- [32:18]
A
Yeah, Yeah. I. I was gonna say I knew.
- [32:21]
B
Coming into this that I was. I was bringing the sweat equity, you could say. I'm actually drenched right now. I just got off a job site, and it's like 100 degrees here in tropical feeling. So I'm out there running material, essentially acting as a job foreman, making sure things are going well. On the. I'd say 10 or 12 projects that we have going, we have divvied out operations from the administrative and financial side of the business. Eric excels on Excel, but he also excels in the financial QuickBooks, kind of the back end of the business. And then we brought a few folks to help us with prospecting, marketing, managing investor money, managing QuickBooks. We do have a bookkeeper. We brought in someone to help me out in the field, call his role field crew. So we've brought folks in to leverage, to extend, you know, extend ourselves, because we can't do everything when we have so many projects going.
- [33:33]
A
Yeah.
- [33:33]
B
But I would say on the whole, I'm. I'm more ops. I'm out in the field, and Eric is managing the. The madness of all the different entities and the QuickBooks and the taxes, payroll.
- [33:45]
A
I would say, from an accountability standpoint, you know, we had this. We had this saying in our. In our company. It was like abbab, which was always people and berating. And so we. It's. It's. It's kind of a joke now, but it's kind of how we operate. So, like, if we're not constantly talking crap to each other, then something wrong. And so there's. There's some kind of. There's like a, like, holding each other accountable just comes naturally because we're always putting each other down. You know, like, we're always like, are you even working? Like, are you even. Like, are you sleeping? Like, why are you sleeping? So. So there's some. There's some edge there where it's. We're just, you know, that carries over from the Marine Corps, where we're just constantly talking trash. Right. You kind of got. You're constantly having. You have to prove yourself constantly. And then the other side, I think, is we're just. It's really good to have somebody else as a sounding board that you. That you think is equally, if not more smart or capable as you, whose perspective you can trust. And so, you know, going at it alone for, you know, four or five years prior to you coming on. There's a lot of Ups and downs, right? You get really excited about deals and then, you know, maybe you hit some bumps and you're like, oh, this is more expensive than I thought. And you know, you hit some, you hit some low points where you're really stressed out. And there's like, who do you, who do you go to talk to? You're like, you're the only one who can solve your problem. You can find a mentor, you can post on a forum. But most of my friends have no idea what debt service coverage ratio means and don't care to learn about it. You know what I mean? So it can be pretty lonely at times when you're just slogging through deal after deal trying to turn something that you have as a dream into reality. So having a business partner who's equally versed that you can share some of the burden with, but also ping ideas off of is really helpful.
- [36:03]
C
I love that.
- [36:04]
B
I'll plug a book on partnerships. It's called Rocket Fuel. I believe it's by Gina Wickman, Traction. Traction. Same guy that wrote Traction about the EOS operating system, Entrepreneurial operating system. So Rocket Fuel, I believe was a follow on book to attraction. And it's about how a partnership can help ignite and send to the moon the things that you've been working on by yourself. So just put enough work in for that Good book on partnerships.
- [36:36]
C
Love that. I want to pivot a little bit. Let's take a step back. Out of all the businesses you could have run, why real estate? Why run a real estate business? You know, because you're still showing up. This isn't passive income where you're retired and chilling. You know what I mean? Obviously there's flexibility, but you have accountability, you have payroll, you're showing up day in and day out. So I run a real estate business as opposed to anything else.
- [37:04]
A
So a couple, a couple of thoughts. You know, one of our really good friends, Brian, he has a company called Stinger Home Management and they're a property management company. He's a retired Marine. Awesome, dude. There's other companies that, you know, retail businesses, H vac companies, whatever their model is, they generate revenue by offering some kind of service, right. And they gotta grow their client base as soon as they have to basically work at their company and scale their company until they can hire a CEO replacement, right? Yeah. Otherwise, as soon as they walk away from the company, their revenue dries up. There's nothing to show for it except maybe a software that you use some, some, you know, some files in a filing Cabinet. If you're an H Vac company, maybe you got some trucks, but there's nothing there. Real estate, you can walk away and there's still assets, so there's still something tangible there. And I think that the, the real, real estate assets as an asset class, it has a huge, a ton of benefits to it. Right. There's a lot of upside that you can influence. It's tangible, it's, it's got a great inflation hedge. If everybody in Congress is in real estate, then you should probably be in real estate too. Right. I think you, I think you pay attention to the centers of power and you, you, what the centers of power are doing, you could follow that as a, as a signal. But I think it's, if you just Google who's created, you know, the most amount of millionaires through the different types of working, you could be an athlete, you could be a celebrity, you could be a high paid doctor or an attorney, more wealth has been created through real estate than any other sector. Sure. And I think that, you know what another piece of that is. You know, property rights are sacred in this country. They go back to, you know, ancient rule of law in, in England. And I think there's, there's a lot of factors that conspire together to make real estate a really compelling asset class. You know, I don't just invest in real estate. I have some index funds and things too. But real estate's my main asset class and that's where I spend my time in my business. For all those reasons.
- [39:42]
C
Yeah, I love that. I think there's so many things people can pour their heart and time and energy into. But like I said, at the end of the day, they might not have anything to show for it when it all dries up. But if real estate, if you're doing it right and you know, you, yeah, you guys are flipping, you're doing construction, you know, you're doing these jobs for clients stuff, but you're building your portfolio along the way. I always say, anybody listening to me probably gets so tired of me saying you're number one. Fiscal responsibility is to increase your asset portfolio. And as long as people keep that drilled at the heart of what they're doing with real estate, then like I said, when the time comes to pivot, you know, you have a sick kid or you just want to retire or you want to travel, whatever it is, yeah, you might be saying goodbye to some good money if you keep running the wheel of the flips and all that. But there's this portfolio. There to step back on when you're ready and when you want to. If you keep growing that along the way, which like you guys are, then you just have more pieces to play with. You know what I mean? And so like. And that's what you're saying. You know, it's like, yeah, there's lots of businesses, but you can't just hold on to an AC unit. If you're selling AC units and this one's going to be worth a lot someday. You know, it's just. That's not really how it works. And then obviously, you know, you guys have such an unfair advantage compared to like the one off investors because you're finding deals, you're promoting deals. You have these subcontractors that you're keeping busy so they can do your, your, you know, remodel for a. Brrr, whatever. You know, you have all the pieces aligned for the long hold stuff because you're doing the other stuff. And so it's a perfect marriage anyway. So I just, I just love your perspective on it.
- [41:23]
A
I think a piece of that is that it's like you alluded to, there's still something there. At the end of the day, it's, it's really akin to like building your own endowment. Right. But your endowment is not necessarily subject to the volatility of the stock market. It's not subject to these different types of volatility. If you have a rental and you have a tenant in there paying, you don't really care, you know, that the stock market's crashing or that it's going to the moon. You just have this endowment that you've created for yourself. And I think that's, that's, that's powerful. 100.
- [42:02]
C
Well, before we let you guys go, let's dive into one of these projects that you guys referenced earlier. I think it was the, the historical project. I know you guys have a couple different ones. Let's pick one. You did this, you know, eight unit, mixed use one. You've also had this historical project that, you know, those are always interesting. Which one do you guys kind of want to dive into a little bit before we roll out?
- [42:26]
A
Yeah, so maybe I'll talk a little bit about the unit. We were, we work with a lot of realtors and they'll, you know, at this point, most realtors in Beaufort know who we are and send us back pocket listings or things that are coming on the market or maybe in delayed listing or whatever. We were in Savannah, me and his girlfriend, my wife, we got my parents to come Watch my kids. And then we had one of our other marine buddies down there and some folks. We were down there for St. Patrick. Yes. For St. Patty's parade, which is a huge deal in Savannah. Okay. We're like halfway through the day already drinking, drinking, having a good time, and a realtor text me and they're like, hey, there's this eight unit that's gonna come on. It's in downtown Port Royal. The price was like insane, insanely low. Like it should not. It should have. It was a mistake. It should have been a mistake. And I just told, I just texted her back, I said, write it up. You know, cash will close in three weeks. Give them a 30. It was at $1.2 million. What they wanted Eight unit mixed use. The bottom four units are commercial, the upper four units are residential. They wanted 1.2 for it. I thought just looking at it, knowing that area without even having to do much work, I was familiar with the building that it was at least a two million dollar property. So I just said, you know, texted her back, give it full price. You know, give me a week of due diligence, a thirty thousand dollar earnest money. I think we offered like a five thousand dollar termination fee if we backed out.
- [44:18]
C
Nice.
- [44:19]
A
It was like we were, I mean, as soon as she sent it, I sent it back. And we were like really aggressive about it. That night they ratified the contract and within the next three days there were four backup offers. And I know what the backup offers were, but I guarantee they were higher than my offer. Yeah, we were pretty excited about that. And then we walked the properties and.
- [44:45]
B
We brought everybody, we, we basically got a hold of everybody we could think of to walk the property with us. Because we, our due diligence was so, so compressed.
- [44:58]
A
We, we were, I was. My concern was why is this property that should be a $2 million property. Why are we getting at 1.2.
- [45:05]
C
So for sure, what am I not seeing? Yeah, exactly.
- [45:08]
A
So, so the, the going in thesis was something's wrong with this property and we have to find it. So why should we not back out of this deal? That was like the going in thesis. So, so prove the negative, right, or disprove the negative rather. So we brought a couple engineers, we brought our H Vac crews, we brought our plumbers, we brought like everybody. As we're requisitioning documents, you know, the existing lease agreements, the existing property management company, etc. We learned a little bit about the current owner. It just became apparent that the existing management company was completely neglectful for like the past eight years. It was. You know, we bought this property in April of this year and the tenants have been there since 2017 and leases had not been increased. So there were prop there, you know, units that were renting for 725 that should been renting for 1600 or units renting for 1400 that should be going for 3000.
- [46:11]
C
I don't want to cut you off, but I assume you raise rents and, and the funny thing, tell me your experience, because I found I've had situations like this and I go in, I'm like, dude, I'm sorry, rents are going up 500 or something crazy. And you know, to the outside person they might be like, oh my gosh, that sounds criminal. But what I've found is almost every time the tenants are like, yeah, we were wondering how long we could hold out. Like, they know it's coming. They've been just like sitting on the sidelines. Like, they don't feel like disrespected or blindsided or screwed. You know, maybe some might try to play that. But I've found most of the time there's like, damn it, we knew this was coming, you know. But what was your experience with that?
- [46:51]
A
Exactly what's happening?
- [46:53]
B
One thing I have learned from my perspective on this deal was there was quite a lot of deferred maintenance.
- [47:00]
A
So.
- [47:00]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we acquired the eight unit. We have just been pouring time and money into this thing to get it on its feet. So while rents may end up, you know, increasing to market rate, we've also been investing so much time and money into fixing this property.
- [47:18]
A
Yeah, we did assume that we're gonna have to spend somewhere between 100 and 200k to just deal with the deferred maintenance that we found when we walked. Sure. But when we were approaching tenants, I mean, they had, most of them had the same reaction. They were like, yeah, we didn't submit maintenance requests because we kind of figured we had a steel here. A lot of them knew they were getting a good deal. Do you think? One thing we did offer them was we identified, you know, what their current rent was, what we thought market rent ought to be, and we offered them a like, lease up period. We said, if you want to sign a new lease with us and extend, we'll put you at 70% market rate for six months and then 80% of market rate and then we'll step you up. So it's not so painful. We offered that to folks and then we also, you know, some folks just immediately Turned over and it was fine. But we did offer, you know, kind of a released program for the folks who wanted to stay because we didn't, we didn't want to be, you know, about it. Yeah, yeah.
- [48:24]
C
And you don't want to be vacant either. You know, the last thing you want is everybody to be gone. You know what I mean? I like that, that ramp up period. Kind of like, hey, we're just going to slowly step you up to, you know, the rent where it should be. I like that.
- [48:39]
A
We're a local business, right? Like it's, it's a, it's his word, you know, everybody knows everybody here. If you get a reputation for being an then that travels quick. So you really got, you really got to think about, you know, how do you balance. This is an investment and we, we're here to make a profit, but also understand that we're not trying to screw people over and we need to give them an opportunity to deal with it in a professional and humane kind of way. So that's, that was our method.
- [49:09]
C
Yeah, I wanted to ask you about a couple pieces on that. So one, I just want to point out for any of the listeners, like, the reason you're able to move so fast on that decision. One, you know, you, you weren't even fully sober, but you still knew it was a good deal because you knew the market, right? You were familiar. That's why it's so important to know your market, guys. You can't take two weeks or even two hours sometimes to run numbers on a deal. If it's a real deal, you need to be on top of it at least knowing your market. You can't know every market, but wherever you're buying, like, just, that's such a competitive advantage that you had that the moment you saw it, you knew to be aggressive. You know, I just can't underplay that enough that I've had the same situation for me when I was like buying in an area and the deal come across. Remember I was sitting on a plane once, like, we're like sitting, waiting for takeoff and like the deal comes across. I'm like, it was this duplex and I knew, like, I was like, this is the best deal I've seen in six months. Like, buy it. Like, I was just like, like. So we literally put in the, I got her the details. Like before I took off, like 20 minutes to the agent, I was like, let's buy this thing. Like, but if I hadn't been like bashing my head against the wall for months, and knowing every in and out, I wouldn't have been as confident, you know, and you were aggressive with it. You put a lot of money on the line thing. You know, you had, you had hard, $5,000 hard.
- [50:27]
A
You.
- [50:27]
C
And then you also. It's not cheap to bring everybody out. I'm sure you bring in out engineers and, you know, everybody, you know, that probably costs a fair amount, you know, during your due week of due diligence. But anyway, I just really like that you. You knew what was going on so you could be aggressive. But I wanted you. Maybe you can answer this for us is how did you fund, you know, a million plus in cash? Are you using private money, hard money? Did you just have that in reserves for this kind of situation or. Well, how did you fund that? Because that obviously sounds attractive to the seller. Like, great, let's go.
- [51:02]
A
I'm glad you brought that up. I listened to a lot of podcasts.
- [51:05]
B
Where they're like, oh, I got this great deal.
- [51:07]
A
And they never actually talk about how it's paid for. Yeah, it was, it was. Well, we did not have $1.2 million in cash that we actually rented the deal. We sprinted to the finish line by calling, burning up the phone.
- [51:24]
B
Hundreds of hundreds of phone calls.
- [51:26]
A
Yeah, it was. We ended up finding a hard money lender that funded. At first they were only going to do 65% and we had them compete against a couple others. We got them to 80% of the deal and then we raised the other 20% privately, just burning up the phones, talking to all the people we've networked with who might be interested in investing. But it was. Three weeks was a quick turn to get people to commit $1.2 million without an appraisal or anything. It was tough.
- [52:03]
B
And Joe, one thing we try to do here is go to the local events in Beaufort. So we're the Chamber of commerce. We mingle with other businesses around town, and anytime we get a chance, we talk about how we have investment component of our business. So we've got a, a short list of people who are committed and already investing with us, but we also have, you know, this extended list of people who may be interested in investing with us. Yeah, so when a deal like that rolls around where we have to hit the phones, you know, we're reaching into the, the depths of that list.
- [52:41]
C
So I love that. Yeah, I mean, staying involved again, you know, it's like, I love that you didn't even have the money. That makes it even more aggressive when you're like, yeah, Put the offer in hard money. We're doing this one week due diligence. I don't have the money, I don't know why it's broken. I don't know what's going on. I'm not fully sober, but like, let's do this thing.
- [52:59]
A
You know what people don't see? They don't see the hundreds of deals that you've underwritten and hundreds of, you know, all the construction you've done, all the times you've raised money at some point. You know, the wisdom, it's like the wisdom or the intuition of a 60 year old, like Tom Brady is spent, you know, Tom Brady on the field making decisions that you know, a microsecond is based on him playing for thousands of hours. Right. There's, there's an intuition that's developed through experience. And so what you said, the point about knowing the market, underwriting deals, even if you don't buy them and just doing reps, it matters when those great deals come across.
- [53:40]
C
And then like you guys added and, and doing the networking, having the people, the po, you know, the partners you've already used, the potential partners you haven't used. Like if you hadn't already been doing all that foundational work, you would have been like, this looks like a sick deal. But for somebody else, like I don't. There's no way we could swing this. But you were confident enough that you'd find a way. If the deal was real, it was real, you're able to pull through it.
- [54:02]
A
We would have, if we had to, we would have started in only fans, I think to raise the money. Military boys for a man.
- [54:12]
C
There we go.
- [54:13]
B
Thinking of alternative strategies.
- [54:17]
C
So I want to talk a little bit more on the funding beyond, beyond only fans and feet fetish stuff. Because that's one way to fund it. And if you do, if you fund a project that way, I do want to have you back on and we want to talk about funding it that way. But the hard money. So you weren't, you didn't do like a DSCR commercial loan for 80% and raise that. You got a hard money lender for long term debt or like a short term for that 80%. Break that down.
- [54:43]
A
Yeah. So we, so there was no way we were going to have time to get a DSCR long term debt on it. And because it was mixed use, that also posed another challenge. A lot of the typical hard money lenders out there, like Ki Vio, Easy Street Capital, all the main guys doing it, they're all you know, one to four unit single family residents. They're not messing with mixed use or commercial. So there's, there's really only either you know a handful of guys that will do mixed use commercial or a local hard money lender. If you have a relationship with just a local guy or a bank, you know, banks might mess with that bank slow. So we had a couple local guys that we leveraged, one out of Charleston, one here in Beaufort and then there was, there is a firm out of Texas Housemax. They'll mess with some stuff that's mixed use. And so we, we got an app, we got bridge debt just to be quick to get it because there was, we, we weren't going to have time to do a full appraisal and get a DSCR long term product on it. So we ended up going to taosmax. It was 18 month with the option to extend. I think it was like you pay a half a point per six month extension. And really the reason we wanted 18 months rather than 12 which is typical for them was we were just looking at the lease terms for the existing tenants and projecting out okay, we want to get our rents up to X so our debt operating income can be in this, you know, whatever range. I think in the 16k, 17k range a month in order to then with a 6 cap refinance into some debt that pays everyone off and then puts some money in our pocket. So we were trying to do some of that calculus with the term of the bridge debt and the rates to make it all work. If that answers the question.
- [56:55]
C
No, it does. So the long term plan was to go put long term debt on it using more of a traditional lender but to get it done the hard money. And I love that you're thinking ahead like that how you spotlight let's improve our noi get everything really pretty picture. So when we go to that long term lender they're just like oh this is great, this isn't a fixer up or this is like a beautiful good, you know, good looking business that's up and running and it's smooth and then it'd be a lot easier to get dead on that, you know. And that's the thing, right? You know when you flip a single family, you put in new, you know, kitchen and tiles and makes it look pretty. That's not how commercial is valuated, right. Commercial is valuated on a cap rate which is based on the net operating income. So you got to go pretty that picture up to go put the, the long Term debt on it there. Have you secured the long term debt yet or is this a newer project where you're still in the works?
- [57:52]
A
No, we're in the middle of it. We bought it in April. We've had, we've had a couple tenants turn over. We've got reds up higher. I mean, we, we. I don't think we'll put it in. I don't think we'll stabilize it until spring of next year because we have a lot of leases that don't end until fall. I think there's a few in November and December and so. But what we did do, going back to an earlier topic, was when we bought it and we started doing some of the, you know, working on some of the deferred maintenance is we had the property manager, we drafted a letter and we notified the tenants of the new ownership. We notified them that, you know, we think their, their rents are really low, that we will be improving the property and that it takes money and we'll be increasing rents. But we want them to be notified now and that if they want to stay, we'd like to work with them to figure out how to stay. So even though there were folks that were nine months out from lease renewal, we were trying to, you know, message them early and often. Yeah, get ahead of the narrative there.
- [58:59]
C
That's cool. It sounds like you'll be able to pull out all of your money and then some when you do put the debt on it.
- [59:07]
A
Yeah, no, I think we're gonna take all the extra money and, and go to South America and party.
- [59:11]
C
Yeah, there you go. Invite me to that party. I'm excited. And maybe we'll see you guys at bpcon coming up here in Cancun as well. This is exciting, guys. We could dive into this stuff forever. But I really appreciate you guys sharing, you know, about your partnership, your, your philosophy on real estate and, and some of these details on these specific projects. I wish we could have time to dive in to more details, but this has been great. Thanks for being here, you guys.
- [59:39]
A
Yeah, thanks for having us. Thank you.
- [59:41]
C
Okay, we're going to do a quick final four questions that we can just bust through real quick and then we'll let you guys go. If you had to start your real estate journey over knowing what you know now, what would be your first or second move?
- [60:02]
A
Not doing Marshall for you. Yeah, not doing that deal. That deal sucked. We had a bum deal. That's for another podcast. Assume. Wait, let me, let me make sure I understand the question right. Assuming we've already, we already know. We already have like the education or the education.
- [60:22]
C
No, you know, you know everything that you know now. But you're starting from square one. It's 20, 24, but you are. You don't have any portfolio, but you know everything that you know now.
- [60:34]
A
I mean, the first thing I would do is probably I'd get a VA loan, get a property and try and house hack. That would be my first thing. I would have house hack for sure with a VA loan. Especially with the ones right now where you can use, you can use up.
- [60:46]
B
To a five unit or.
- [60:48]
A
Yeah, you can. Or you could go, you could do one to four unit even without a VA loan. And Fannie Mae will let you use the other units as a rental income. So I would, I would immediately ask that. That's the first thing. Yeah, Love it.
- [61:00]
C
I love how like, good that advice is. Like, and you guys are buying multi units. You've got, you know, dozens of properties. You've done, you know, tons and tons of deals. I was like the power of a house actor. Like, if you're starting like, especially va, like talk about sweat equity. You guys sweated off in the military, you did your, your service and you get a free house. Like either zero money down, guys, like, anybody listening? That's va and it isn't taking advantage of that. Like guys. And there's ways you can get credit for the closing costs because some people. Oh, I don't have 15 guys. There's ways get it. Any decent agent that knows anything about these and you can just go get a free house. Like, go take advantage of that.
- [61:42]
A
You have VA disability, compensable disability.
- [61:45]
B
You don't have to pay the VA funding fee. PMI is waived, I believe, but benefits.
- [61:52]
A
For using the va. And I think what I was alluding to before is even if you're not VA, there's the new. I think it's a new FHA product where they'll fund 95 + multifamily as a, as a primary residence.
- [62:05]
C
So like not even just fha, you can just do a conventional now and you can get a 4 unit with 5% down, not even FHA. So you don't have to deal with the PMI forever. Like it's getting easier in a lot of ways. And I think there's going to be some more programs coming. But yeah, I think that house hacks a perfect recommendation there.
- [62:24]
A
Huge. Yeah.
- [62:25]
C
All right, Book or podcast recommendation everybody should check out.
- [62:31]
A
My favorite podcast is Lex Friedman. Those deep dives are amazing. What do you think?
- [62:38]
B
I mean, in the real estate world. What helped me over the past year was, well, your, your podcast, but also Real Estate Rookie was, was very helpful because they have a lot of folks on there who it's their first deal of their second deal, so. Which is cool books, what you got?
- [62:59]
A
Well, everyone says rich dad, poor dad, but that was a pivotal book for me, especially when I was younger that really kind of jerks you in place and is like, why are you thinking about the world in this way when this is not the way the world works kind of thing. Yeah, just kind of. It's like, what's the one in Matrix? The red pill to go down the rabbit hole. It's like Rich Dad, Poor dad is like a red pill book.
- [63:26]
C
It really is. It's just like, oh, this is how reality is. Working with money. I didn't even know it for, for me, it was.
- [63:35]
B
I read this book when I was 21 and this kick started my investing journey. Not so much the real estate, but just more like stocks, bonds, things like that, which was the Boglehead's Guide to Investing. It's by Jack Bogle, I believe. He's the founder of Vanguard.
- [63:52]
A
Yeah.
- [63:53]
B
And that taught me what stocks and bonds were, different asset mixes, things like that. That was the first book that, like I said, kickstarted me in that direction. And then I joined the Bogleheads forum and I started posting. I became an avid poster in that forum and that's why I started absorbing a lot of investment financial knowledge, which I took with me and grew throughout my 20s. That was in my early 20s. So it was that book by Jack Bogle for me.
- [64:22]
C
I love that. I love that. Okay, next question. Question number three of four. What is the most expensive or interesting mistake you've made in real estate investing?
- [64:34]
A
The most expensive mistake was trying to find the cheapest contractor. The.
- [64:41]
C
I told you, it all comes down to contractors every time. You know, always.
- [64:45]
B
That's always the problem.
- [64:46]
A
Just don't go, don't go with the cheapest because it will bite you in the butt. You know, there's, there's, there's a difference between being cheap and being frugal. And there's a difference between, you know, spending your money on quality. But, but deciding what's necessary versus what's not necessary. Necessary. So don't, you know, we, I spent, we've spent a lot of money redoing work we shouldn't have had to redo. I'd say that's the main, most expensive mistake.
- [65:20]
C
I love it all Right, last question. What is a one word or short phrase to encapsulate why you love real estate investing?
- [65:31]
A
It can be liberating.
- [65:36]
C
I love it.
- [65:37]
A
Yeah, there we go.
- [65:39]
B
I mean, you know, based on my trip. Trip around the US and.
- [65:44]
A
Yeah.
- [65:46]
B
Countries. So for me, it's the freedom. Freedom of mobility.
- [65:50]
A
So I love it.
- [65:52]
B
Pick up and travel and go see new places, experience new cultures, try new foods, and, you know, it's being funded by some of the passive income I have.
- [66:02]
C
I love you guys. Thanks so much for taking the time. If people want to follow you, reach out to you, you know, invest with you, whatnot, what's the best way for them to be in touch?
- [66:11]
B
We're on Facebook and Instagram. Our company.
- [66:13]
A
Yeah. Berman Property Group. We also have a website, bermanpropertygroup.com that's B E R M A N propertygroup.com and I think. Yeah. On Facebook and Instagram, too.
- [66:24]
B
Yeah, yeah. Follow us, because we don't have that many followers.
- [66:27]
A
Yeah. Nobody likes us, so follow us. Yeah.
- [66:30]
C
There we go. I love it. All right, well, thanks for your time. We'll let you guys get back to taking over the world. This is Joe Jensen signing off for the Real Estate Investing School podcast, reminding you that you can do more together.