Interviewer/Moderator (2:21)

Right.

Tony Lopes (2:22)

And so, you know, we didn't, we didn't, we didn't come for money. So for me, my upbringing was from the perspective of my parents who came with little to this country. And so they saw the education system here, they saw the opportunity that exists here in the United States. And so their big thing was go to school, get an education, you'll get a great job and you'll be taken care of for the rest of your life. That's what they saw, right? They saw such great opportunity here. And so as a young person, I mean, what did I know? I mean, I truly believed in what my parents were teaching me. And there's, there's a lot of goodness in that. So I went to school, I got a great education, as you mentioned. I got two great degrees, right? Mechanical engineering degree and an mba.

Interviewer/Moderator (3:08)

Right.

Tony Lopes (3:08)

Great degrees, yeah. And so I was out in the workforce living the good life. So I thought, until one day I got my layoff notice, right? And I'm like, wait a minute. This was nowhere in the mantra of go to school, get a good education, get a good job and get laid off, Right?

Joe Jensen (3:28)

Yeah. Where's that on the timeline?

Tony Lopes (3:31)

That wasn't in there, right? So, so I wasn't financially independent, right. I was, I was a young man, 20, 20 something years old. So I had to figure it out. I had to get another job, another W2 job, which is okay. And I don't poo poo W2 jobs. I mean, there's goodness in there. You have to leverage it for, for the goodness. So, so yeah, I have to get another job. But at that time I, I was already thinking about how do I create multiple streams of income so I don't get, you know, caught in this again being laid off or having, you know, some sort of financial disaster. So at that point I started saving up after I got a new job, started saving up, ended up buying my first multifamily which was a, a quad, a four unit building. I still own it today. I've had it for, for nearly 20 years now. Yeah, still have it today. It's gone. I mean, it's almost triple the value that I bought it at. But the rent had just, you know, what I used to rent for 800amonth is now over 2,000amonth. So it's just, I mean, that sold me on real estate. And so from there, you know, and again, I think this is a, is, is an important part of the story is you don't have to go like super big and have like tons and tons of cash to be able to do this. You need a little bit of, a little bit of cash. You know, some savings are, you know, take a loan for your 401k or things like that or a HELOC or different, different avenues to be Able to come up with a down payment, you know, but you know, you don't have to buy. You see on Facebook, there's a lot of folks who are buying apartment complexes, you know, 40 units, 20 units, you know, big thing. You don't have to, you know, go that route. You know, start with the means you had. I only had enough to buy a qu. And then from there I bought a three family building, a three unit building. Then from there I bought a duplex. And then from there, there I think I went into building. I had built some homes for a little bit. Built and sold. But then I realized I was getting killed on the, on the tax side of the business because I would make money and then I'd have to pay a lot of taxes on that short term money that I'd made. So that didn't really sit with me very well. So I went really back into the multifamily space, you know, and I bought, you know, again, just these buildings weren't big buildings and they were the buildings. You know, I think by the time I retired at 44, I had, I don't know, 28 units.

Joe Jensen (6:09)

Okay, so what did that look like to be retired? Like, what did it mean for you to be able to retire? Was it a cash flow number that you're like, okay, now I'm retired or what did that, what did it take for you?

Tony Lopes (6:19)

Yeah, you're right, it was a number. It, you know, basically I had to make sure I covered my expenses. And me being an engineer, I was, I always put a factor of safety on things. So for me it was a factor of safety of 2. I needed to be making 2x my expenses. So in case I had some, some vacancies or some issues like replace a roof or boiler or something like that, I had enough of a factor of safety to be able to support that repair.

Interviewer/Moderator (6:47)

Right.

Tony Lopes (6:47)

So. And I think that's where some folks are getting caught up today. You know, I kind of troll some of these troll. I troll some of these Facebook groups and I see some of the posts and I'm just like, oh man. You know, I see people having issues, all sorts of different issues, and it's just like, wow, you just not, you don't have enough reserves to get through those, through those bad days.

Joe Jensen (7:13)

Yeah, I always suggest, I say people need to have a three to eight month reserve for all their assets. And then you can't count cash flow until you minus capex and vacancy, you know, those just that right there changes the entire way you look at it. And Approach it and where you think you're actually at. And I love that you saw that or had your, you know, double the, yeah, your, your lifestyle expenses. You know, having a rule to be able to see how to look at it appropriately will really protect you because you get these guys poo pooing on real estate. Like, oh, but what if something happens? It's like, yeah, we calculated for that. Like, Dave Ramsey, chill, dude. Like, it does work if you do it right. If you do it blindly with no reserves and you don't calculate for anything. Yeah, you might get burned a little bit, but, yeah, bring that up.

Tony Lopes (8:03)

Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's so funny because I, you know, I'll have conversations with, with folks and, you know, they're like, you know, 50 or 60 years old, right? I, I, you know, I'm over 50 now, so I'm kind of in that category. But I'll be chatting with folks and they're like, oh, yeah, I wanted to get into real estate like, 20 years ago and, you know, buy during the foreclosures and. But my neighbor was telling me how risky it was or my brother was telling me how risky it was, and I'm like, how many multifamily does your neighbor own? Zero.

Interviewer/Moderator (8:35)

Right?

Tony Lopes (8:35)

And it's like, so you're listening to the wrong people, you know, and you re, you know, I got nothing to sell, really, you know, nothing to sell. I'm not looking for folks to come into my syndication my fun. Buy anything that I, I could care less. I'm set. Nobody has to give me money. I'm good. So this is just pure, you know, Tony at large, just kind of sharing the, you know, the message of, you know, follow people who are doing what you want to do or where you want to be. If you want more freedom in your life, seek out people who have more freedom in their life and go ask them, how did you get there?

Interviewer/Moderator (9:13)

Right?

Tony Lopes (9:14)

And go do what they do. If you want more wealth, if you want more cash flow, if you want a nicer car, if you want a nicer house, go look at those folks who have some of those things and ask them, you know, hey, how did you get there? Yeah, don't go talk to your neighbor who, you know, probably has never done it, never researched it, never experienced it, you know, go find those people who can help you avoid those pitfalls.

Interviewer/Moderator (9:39)

Right.

Tony Lopes (9:39)

And be successful.

Joe Jensen (9:41)

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And it's like, it's so interesting because, like you said, so much can happen with real Estate, you said you bought these things 20 years ago. You know what I mean? Sometimes we're looking at one or two, maybe five years. You've been doing this long enough and it's really cool to be able to talk to somebody like you that's done it for so long, because so many people have only been doing it for three or five years, you know, maybe 10, you know, but when you've been in it as long as you have, you've been able to see the growth how, you know, went from $800 of rent to 2,000 tripled in, in property value.

Tony Lopes (10:11)

Yeah.

Joe Jensen (10:12)

And one thing I love about real estate is it grows with you. You know what I mean? Because you might say, oh, well, $800 a day. You like, let's say you're retired off your cash flow number. Let's. I don't even know what it was. We'll say it's 5,000 or whatever at the time, you know that 5,000. Even if you had not bought any more real estate, if you'd just been like, cool, I hit my number, I'm good. That 5,000 would have grown to 10,000. Because what cost you 5,000 to live then would cost you 10,000 to live now. And so it's actually like, it's so unique and special as investment because it grows with the economy. And so it's like you're never really going to be left stranded because it's going to grow as your expenses grow. It'll take care of itself. It'll keep funding itself and your lifestyle as it increases with the economy, which is just so unique. You know what I mean?

Tony Lopes (10:59)

Yeah, yeah. It's unlike a W2 job where, you know, you're kind of strapped with your once a year merit increase on what the boss thinks you deserve. You're not strapped to that. You can do so much more. Heck, I was just. So I was chatting with somebody who just recently bought a duplex. And so we were talking and I was, he's in a relatively rural area. And so I was like, hey, have you, have you thought, thought about. And this just blew his mind. So I wanted to share it. You know, he has. So it's duplex. He's cash flowing from both units. Great. I said, have you ever thought about putting up a cell tower on the property? It's like two acres or something like that. And then you have a cell tower to be able to hang antennas off of AT&T T Mobile, you know, whatever, and be able to charge them a monthly fee and some of these things can fetch up to, you know, somewhere between 1200 and $4000 a month. And it's like, holy cow. To be able to, you know, sometimes we're, we, we're limited by our own beliefs.

Interviewer/Moderator (12:05)

Right?

Tony Lopes (12:05)

Yeah. Be done. You have to check out the regulations, the, you know, the, the land use code and the, you know, the, just the zoning codes in your area to see if it's allowed. But you know, heck, go off and see that, See if you can put an antenna on, on your building to be able to see if you can attract some, some, some clients to be able to pay for that space. How, how awesome would that be?

Joe Jensen (12:34)

That's so interesting.

Interviewer/Moderator (12:35)

Right?

Joe Jensen (12:36)

I love that. And you know, in, in today's world with real estate, it's not what it was even five years ago, 10 years ago, it was a lot easier to cash flow. You could buy something just literally just buy it, put people in it. It's going to rent for more than you're paying for. Like, it was just pretty simple and easy. But nowadays we do need to get a little more creative with 7 and a half percent interest rates and the price point, you know. But I love what you're mentioning. It's like, get creative. Put a cell tower on the land. What about a billboard? What about an RV park?

Tony Lopes (13:04)

Storage?

Joe Jensen (13:04)

Not for 20 RVs? What about two? What about one? You know, an extra couple hundred bucks can be the difference of cash flow. Like if you can get really creative nowadays, like, it still can work. Even though it's not as simple and easy as it used to be, it still can be done if, if you can think out of the box, you know, a cell phone tower, I never would have thought of that until you mention. I'm like, that's so awesome.

Tony Lopes (13:28)

Yeah, it's wild. It's wild what they pay out. If you can't erect one. It's wild what, what you can get per month on that. You know, in, in real estate, you mentioned how, how different it is, you know, today versus five years ago. There's some, what I would say there's some good and there's some bad.

Joe Jensen (13:47)

Yes.

Tony Lopes (13:48)

Going back in time, like, I can look back, I have the perspective of being old and being able to look back in time and see what was like. So one of the, I would say the difficult things today with investing in real estate and the reason why I call my company Dirty Boots Capital is, you know, I think it's important to get your boots dirty like on the ground, like walking a construction site, walking through A building, you know, get your boots dirty physically with that local building that you're looking at, walk it, get your boots dirty. But I think it's also important today to get your boots dirty in terms of looking at different things. You got to look at, you know, obviously the financial statement for that building, how it's been operating. You got to look at your town. What, which way does your town, Lee, lean? Is it more and even your state, is it more tenant focused or is it, you know, more landlord focused?

Interviewer/Moderator (14:47)

Right.

Tony Lopes (14:47)

I mean, we saw through Covid well, New New York City. If you own something in New York City as a landlord, man, you were screwed because you weren't getting paid for like months and months and nobody cared about your mortgage. They were just like, you know, tenants aren't going to pay you. And that was allowed to happen. So you got to be careful, I think these, these days, which way you're your city, your town, your state is leaning. You know, I just had a conversation with, with a client relative to a property they own and I was talking about, you know, hey, can we, can we keep the rents the same Again, just trying to be creative. Let's not increase rents, but can we put on fees? Can we put on a move in fee, right? Can we put on a cleaning fee? Can we put a pet fee? Like, what can we do for fees? And they were like, yeah, this particular state, they don't allow fees like that. All you can do is charge first, last, last and security deposit. And I'm like, well, that sucks. You know, so you got to really understand the. Get your boots dirty in terms of that, you know, the political environment that you're operating in. And then also, you know, demographics. You know, I look at certain states, you know, we talk about population pyramids and you can get population pyramids for, for states, for cities, for, you know, down to the lowest level you want to look at. And what we like to see is at the base, you know, somewhere around that 15 year old category, we like to see a wide base down there because those are our future renters as they come up that population pyramid and become 20 years old. Those are our renters, right? And we want to have a nice stack. If the population pyramid looks like this and we have a very small bar of 15 year olds, we're going to look at that and say in 10 years, where's our renters? Yeah, if they're like this and I have a very small number, what's the future of renting in that location? So we want to look at demographics, we want to look at, you know, the businesses. Are businesses coming in, are they hiring? Like, there's a lot of different things where 20 years ago, I didn't have to look at that.

Interviewer/Moderator (16:59)

Right.

Tony Lopes (16:59)

Today I do look at that. So that's one of the. I would say the bad things. One of the good things. Not bad. It's just. It's what is.

Joe Jensen (17:06)

It is what it is. Yeah.

Tony Lopes (17:10)

One of the good things is social media. Wow. I didn't have any YouTube channels when I started to go to. I didn't have any Facebook or LinkedIn or anything. I didn't have any social media to go to that was free or available. I can post anything to landlord groups on Facebook right now, today, and I can have an answer in less than 15 minutes from probably six to 10 people saying, hey, Tony, this is how you should solve your problem with bed bugs, or this is how you should solve your problem with increasing insurance or whatever it is. I can post and I can have people weigh in on it.

Interviewer/Moderator (17:46)

Right.

Tony Lopes (17:46)

That. We didn't have that 20 years ago, so I was flying blind to a large degree. And I think it's something great that newbies can. Can. Can use to help them get off the ground.

Joe Jensen (18:00)

Yeah, no, I think that's so true. It's easy to go like, oh, back in the day, things were easier because of this, but it's also. They were harder because of this and this. Today's harder because of this, but it's easier because of this. Like, I mean, the resources, these podcasts, these books, the. The Facebook groups, you know, AI like, you can get so much information. Like, I honestly think it's easier now than ever to make money, to get wealthy. You know what I mean?

Tony Lopes (18:25)

Absolutely. You are so. You are so right. You know, again, I'm old. I've been doing this for a long time. Real estate investors, if you're new to the real estate game and you're like, oh, what was me? The rates went up and, you know, it's hard to cash flow. Get used to it. This is what real estate is. Real estate investors, we are never happy.

Joe Jensen (18:47)

Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Tony Lopes (18:48)

Because when the rates go down, then.

Joe Jensen (18:50)

The prices go up, it's hard to.

Tony Lopes (18:51)

Get a loan, and we are never, never happy. Right, Joe? So this is just the world we're in, and we make the best of it, and we try to maximize our cash flow, and we have to get creative. I've always had to get creative with things. You know, I was, you know, getting creative with value add before it was ever called value add.

Interviewer/Moderator (19:12)

Right.

Tony Lopes (19:13)

I mean, that was, that was 20 years ago.

Joe Jensen (19:15)

We're burring before Brandon Turner told us to call it burring, you know what I mean? Like, yes, always been doing creative finance and Sub two before, you know, Pace told us to call it Sub two, you know, and it's interesting, but the information was harder to come by then. You know what I mean? And so it's like, people might complain now, but it's like, yeah, but, you know, it, everybody, it's so, it's so easy to access this for so many people that back in the day it just, it might have been more available in some ways, but, but it was so hard to get to that it was like, how did you even know how to take advantage of the real estate, you know?

Tony Lopes (19:49)

Yeah.

Joe Jensen (19:49)

So some people is awesome. And, and I just want to say, you say, oh, we're never happy. And I would say the critics never happy, the newbies never happy, but the real, the real investors are always happy because they know there's always some way to win in that market. It might be a different strategy, but there's always good going on. You just got to lean into whatever the environment is good for at that time, you know.

Tony Lopes (20:11)

Yeah. Which, you know, I do a lot of, you know, onstage talks relative to Renter Nation, and I don't know if that's a popular term with, with your audience, but I talk a lot about, you know, how we're becoming more and more a nation of renters. We are, you know, the, the average age of a first time home buyer today is 37 years old.

Interviewer/Moderator (20:36)

Wow.

Tony Lopes (20:37)

37. So, okay, so what does that mean? Well, they're staying a renter for longer, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, that's simple math, Right. You know, we're also at a point where, you know, we're at the Highest point of 19 to 29 year olds Living at home with their parents. So These young adults, 19 to 29 years old, living at home, 53%.

Joe Jensen (21:05)

Of.

Tony Lopes (21:05)

Them are living at home with their parents. Now at some point in time, they're, they're going to be able to go out in the world and, you know, afford something. Chances are it's not going to be a house.

Interviewer/Moderator (21:17)

Right.

Joe Jensen (21:17)

Yeah.

Tony Lopes (21:18)

They're going to move out of mom and dad's house for various reasons and they are going to become a renter.

Interviewer/Moderator (21:23)

Right.

Tony Lopes (21:24)

That's going to be their first step into, you know, kind of that environment. They're not going to go out and buy a house. I would say I shouldn't paint with such a broad brush. There's probably some of those young people who are staying at home saving up a nest egg, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars to be able to buy their first home. God bless them. That's great. Excellent. You know, but the, the lion's share of them are going to go into the rental community. And so we, we see a lot of these things and today, I mean we're, we're purchasing. We just closed on a building in, in Florida in May. You know, it's, it's 153 unit apartment complex and you know, we are just so bullish in terms of the multifamily space. We just see the need. It's, it's phenomenal, it's phenomenal out there, Joe. So yeah, if you're questioning, you know, hey, is this the right time to get into rentals? You know, the prices are high, it's hard to. Cash flow. Yeah, you got to be creative with your financing, with your, with your rents and creating that cash. You got to be creative. But the demand is there and it's just going to explode higher.

Joe Jensen (22:33)

Yeah, I think you're right. I mean it's, it's so interesting to see. We definitely are becoming a renter nation. Like I said, people like before, it's like, oh, I, I'm only renting because I can't buy. I wish I could. But now I know a lot of people that make a lot of money that could very well own multiple homes, but they just prefer to rent. It's just, it's just less headache in their mind and it's simpler world for them. And so it's like it's becoming a very normalized thing. Not just because they can't, which I think it used to be a little more like that you'd rent if you couldn't buy, then someday you hope to buy. Now people are like, they just never want to buy. They just want to rent forever and just live that life, you know, and there's reasons why they, they think that way. But it's, it's interesting. It's a different dynamic than it used to be and I think it's going to get more so like you said.

Tony Lopes (23:21)

And you know, as far as rent is going to continue to increase, we're not going to see it increase like, like it was, you know, over the past, you know, two, three years where it was double digit growth, but it is still going to increase. I mean, you know, when you look at, I have, I have A couple of single families that I rent and, you know, to own that single family, pay the mortgage, the insurance, property tax, all that sort of stuff, you're probably looking at $4,000 a month in terms of housing costs if you owned, right?

Joe Jensen (23:55)

Yeah.

Tony Lopes (23:56)

So I rent it for 20. I think it's 26, 2700amonth.

Interviewer/Moderator (24:03)

Right.

Tony Lopes (24:03)

So there's more upward, upward pressure that can be built on that 26, 2700amonth rent before it starts to top out. And people say, you know what, I should just go buy.

Interviewer/Moderator (24:17)

Right.

Tony Lopes (24:17)

But right now they get the benefit of paying a much, much lower rent for that same quality of house, that same quality house that they would otherwise be paying $4,000 a month for.

Interviewer/Moderator (24:30)

Right.

Tony Lopes (24:31)

So, yeah, that's where I think, you know, rents are going to continue to increase. The demand is still going to be there. Because the numbers, the math still works, right? We just look at the math. I mean, I'm not a real smart guy. Just look at the math, see where the population's going, where the demographics are leading us. You know what U Haul is telling us in terms of where people are moving to, Right. Where are the trucks going? We look at that stuff to try to understand and we just follow, right? We just go.

Joe Jensen (25:00)

Is that how you do it, Tony, for you picking a market, you're not just like buying in your backyard or buying where you have a connection. Do you actually kind of hand pick these demographic type, you know, metrics that you're looking at to know where you want to invest next?

Tony Lopes (25:15)

So you had mentioned early on in the conversation, you know, real estate, there, there's a lot of, like, diversity within real estate and you change with your real estate investing as you change. And so I want to be careful in answering the question because I don't want to sway anybody one way or the other. I think if you're starting out as a real estate investor or you have one or maybe two properties, I think investing local is, is maybe a smart way to go. Every. It's always a case by case scenario, but investing local is always a smart way because you know that market, you know the town, you know the good streets and the bad streets, you know what businesses have come and gone. You, you know it well, you can speak to it well. So I think that's an important aspect in terms of purchasing early on, knowing what, what area, locale, you're buying it. So for us, we've evolved and so, I mean, for us we have a bigger system where we have property management and we have a Leasing office. And we have the flexibility to kind of go pretty much where we want to go because we're a little bigger. So for us, one of the things, and I'll share, we look at Florida. Florida has 1200 people a day moving into it. 1200 people a day moving into Florida. Now, some of those are going to be buyers, right? I don't know, maybe some of those people are living on the bridges. I doubt it.

Interviewer/Moderator (26:56)

Right.

Tony Lopes (26:56)

I mean, but a large degree of those people are renters. And when you go down to Florida, you see the infrastructure being, you know, overhauled. These highways, these bridges, just massive, you know, roadwork construction going on. You see these apartment complexes going up. You know, it's not just putting up 6, 10, or 20 units, they're putting up hundreds of units at a time. You know, so this explosion that's going on, the, the, the universities that are coming to Florida, the hospitals and medical centers that are coming to Florida, you know, the investment firms that are coming to Florida, it's just huge. And so when we look at that, we can't discount. Discount it, right? We have to take it seriously. And so that's, you know, today we, that's what we look at is some of that movement. But if I was a newbie, if I was investing, for starters, I probably wouldn't get enthralled with all that just yet. That's a little more, a little more advanced. You know, kind of look in your own backyard and see what you can maybe property manage yourself, right? Because you'll save money, right? Lease those units yourself. So you're not hiring a realtor to do that and losing a month's rent, Right?

Joe Jensen (28:09)

Right.

Tony Lopes (28:10)

This is where early on, this is how you, how you beef up your cash flow because you're gonna do some of that sweat equity yourself. You know, spend the weekend painting an apartment, give it a little facelift. It looks so much better. It'll rent quicker. Your downtime will be that much less. You know, that's, you know, if you, if you're doing something down in Florida and you live in Utah, right, You can't do that. You have to hire all that stuff out and it doesn't, it doesn't become profitable at that point.

Joe Jensen (28:38)

Yeah, I love the idea of investing where you're at. And I don't mean even physically where you're at. I mean where you're at skill wise, knowledge wise, emotionally like fear wise, you know, just invest where you're at, you know, and like, say it'll change, you know, and some People, they're ready to go big a lot sooner. And some people, it takes a longer. And some people, you know, they start in your backyard. Some people, it's, it goes, you know, remote and there's just, there's no right or wrong way necessarily with real estate. It's so customizable. And anybody who's listening to this podcast have heard me say that a thousand times, but I love that. And it's like you were saying you're like, for you, where you're at right now, XYZ makes sense, but that's not necessarily where you were when you were doing abc. You know what I mean? That's okay.

Tony Lopes (29:22)

Yeah, that's how it should be. I, I, you know, again, for that. And you're, you're so right. Invest where you're at. So many different, you know, we should write a book together. Invest where you're at and highlight all these things. You know, I, I do multifamily because I believe in it. I research it. That's my life. I've been doing it forever.

Interviewer/Moderator (29:42)

Right.

Tony Lopes (29:43)

So that's what I know. But for somebody who's like, you know, I spend quite a bit of my time in New Hampshire and we have a big snowmobile community here, a big, you know, you know, dirt bike and ATV vehicles and, you know, all that New Hampshire, you can imagine it, right? Big hunting community, hunting lodges, the whole bit.

Interviewer/Moderator (30:01)

Right.

Tony Lopes (30:02)

So in New Hampshire, if you're somebody up here and you spot a piece of land where you say, ooh, I can put some storage units there and I can rent out those storage units to, you know, people who want to store their ATVs, you know, for the off season, or people who want to store their snowmobiles, you know, for the off season or whatever it is, or their gear, you know, I mean, that's just another way, like, invest where you're at. Like, that's something.

Joe Jensen (30:31)

What is your local market? You know, is it, yeah, short term rental. Cool there, is it not people? Everybody wants to own Airbnb. I'm like, well, what about your market? You know, I'll talk to these students. And I'm like, that's not good in your area. Like, why are you worried about that? But what is good in your area is midterm rentals. Like, focus on that. You have a hospital, like you, like I said, the storage, the vacation, you know, whatever is good where you're at. Let that be where, where you focus as opposed to trying to duplicate what Tony does. Yeah, because he likes New Hampshire. It's like you've never even been to New Hampshire. You know, nothing about New Hampshire. But what about, you know, Cincinnati? What's cool there? What. What's the strength there? You know, and yeah, I love that. I like it. But we should do that book and Best where youe At. There's a thousand ways that that's meaningful. I'm loving it.

Tony Lopes (31:19)

Absolutely.

Joe Jensen (31:21)

That's cool. So you've done some big changes, though. You've done a little bit of everything. I mean, like say you just bought 153unit, you know, before you're buying single family and duplexes and, and everything like that. Was there like just a gradual exchange into that or was there like a moment of jump for you?

Interviewer/Moderator (31:43)

It was.

Tony Lopes (31:44)

I would say it was. For me, it was a, it was a jump. It was after I had, after I retired at 44, I was, I thought it was going to be great, right? And it was great. It was great. You know, but here I was, I was 44 and I was like doing all these great things. I was going biking into the beach and hiking mountains and all these things I wanted to do that I didn't really always have time to do, you know, but also I was. I looked to my left and I looked to my right. All my friends were working and I was like, you know, you guys got to hurry up and retire too.

Joe Jensen (32:19)

Yeah, like, who am I going to hang out with? Come on, dude.

Tony Lopes (32:21)

Right. And so, so that's when, at that point, it was a bit of an inflection point where I started to research more of the macroeconomics of things, like what's happening in society, what's happening with politics, what, what causes other things to happen, like the causation of things. So I started to really dive deep into that piece and it's helped me so immensely with the, with the real estate piece of things. And so that. So I mean, deep dive into that for years and years. I probably spent, you know, five years really just isolated, studying that. Okay. So, you know, that's what really led me into more doing bigger deals. Because, you know, as we see today, the cost of the property, the cost of property management, the cross cost of leasing units, the cost of upgrades, all these things build on themselves. And to get, to be able to get sometimes cash flow to work, you need to amortize it over more units is simply what it is. So that's why I started getting into better deals, bigger deals is because the risk ends up going down with bigger deals if the deal is done right.

Interviewer/Moderator (33:42)

Right.

Tony Lopes (33:43)

We've seen some big deals that have gone bad, but that's not because the property is bad.

Interviewer/Moderator (33:50)

Right.

Tony Lopes (33:50)

This is where we start to talk about distressed property. And it's not actually that the property, the asset is distressed. There's nothing wrong with the asset. It's a very good multifamily. You know, it's the operator that's distressed.

Interviewer/Moderator (34:09)

Right.

Tony Lopes (34:10)

So this is a very important thing. Like when we talk about distress or somebody says that's a distressed property, one of your first things you should be asking is, distressed, how is it the asset that's distressed or is it the operator that's distressed? Most of what we're seeing today is operators that are distressed that go back to something. Again you mentioned, Joe, a lot of people have had success in the last five to 10 years, but they don't really have the depth of experience.

Joe Jensen (34:38)

They don't really know what they're doing. They've just been in the right place at the right time.

Tony Lopes (34:42)

Exactly, exactly. The real estate market has done very well over the last 15 to 20 years. And, you know, in a time and space where it's kind of like they really haven't seen some of the bad times. And so it's really a distressed operator situation. So, yeah, that's one of the other avenues we're looking at is bigger deals, distressed operators, where we can come in, save a good building with good operators, and try to keep things working for those tenants.

Joe Jensen (35:13)

So let me ask you this, Tony. A lot of people I talked to on this podcast, especially recently, they all seem to own these. These firms or capital partners. They have, you know, they're running syndications, they're running companies, they're running real estate businesses. And you're working, right? You're doing it. You've got teams doing different pieces, acquisition guys and management guys. And it's this whole business, this whole company. So I guess the question is, how does somebody who is where you were at first when you retired just kind of has their own private portfolio of a few homes, maybe 10 or 20 or whatever. You know, they've got their nest egg, they've got their cash flow. How does someone like that go to go buying, you know, these big multi units? Because they're like, well, I don't have a team yet. I don't have people working for me, acquisition specialists or a hundred thousand dollars I can spend on due diligence of this huge unit. Like, how do you bridge that gap? Because I think a lot of listeners hear these people running the businesses. They're like, but I don't have a business so I can't do what they do. But at one point you didn't have the business either. So like how Bridge gap.

Tony Lopes (36:19)

Great. Wow. That's a great question. I don't think anybody's ever asked me that, but that's a great question. It really is. And for folks who want to kind of break, break out from the onesie twosie or you know, 5 or 10 or 20 units into something bigger, you know, you know, I'll, I teamed with, with other folks, right? I don't have incredible deal flow, right? But I have a partner in the business who has incredible deal flow. I mean he gets off market deals like, like crazy. He has those connections, he has that network, he has great deal flow. You like somebody who's listening to this, right? A viewer, a listener, right, Might have great deal flow, but they don't have the cash. They got to go find somebody with the cash, right? Or like in my case, what I bring to the table, I have great property management skills, right? I can take a property that's operating with a 4% return and bring it up to like a 7 or 8% return, right? I just have excellent. And that's not like I'm trying to be humble, but I mean, I'm proving my case for how I got into it. My property management skills are like, you know, have been honed by managing my own properties early on when I was buying a quad and a duplex and right, you learn all those dirty, right? You got your boots dirty, you know, like what tricks tenants are going to play on you and like what can go south and how long can you get away with that roof until you have the money to, you know, should you repair it or should you replace it, right? These are all things that I'm strong in. So that's what I bring to the table when I go walk a property and look around and see, you know, the condensers for the, for the AC units, do they look good, do they look shitty, do they need to be replaced? You know, these are all things. As I'm walking around, I'm adding up numbers in my head to say, what do we have for a reserve? And if somebody says, you know, we have 2 million for a reserve and I have 4 million in my head, I'm like, no, the deal's not going to work. You need 4 million at least for this deal to be healthy, right? Because I don't want to get into a deal that doesn't have enough reserves to Carry itself. Yeah. Uh, so that's what I bring to the table. Other people, super, like, you know, excellent skills at underwriting a property and spreadsheet jockeys and the whole bit. Again, we have somebody else who's awesome at that. I look at it. I absolutely go through those pieces of it because I want to know, I want to double check. And I ask them, how about this? How about that? Why are you so conservative in your rents? I've looked at the COSTAR report. COSTAR says we should get 2100. If you only have 1800 in here, why did you keep. Yeah, that's one area that I was conservative in. He tells me, okay, great. So I can see these certain things in the underwriting report where he was conservative and we're able to have that dialogue. But he's a master at it, right? He just knows Excel like. Like nobody's business. I don't really care to go through Excel and create my own, you know, underwriting spreadsheets. You know, I'll look at them and I'll review and make sure everything ticks and talks. But, I mean, I rather be playing at a property and kind of going through it and talking to the leasing agents that have been there for the last X number of years and finding out about the demographic of the population of the town.

Interviewer/Moderator (39:31)

Right?

Tony Lopes (39:31)

Other people don't want to do that. They're like, ah, Tony, I don't want to get on a plane. I don't want to go to the property. I don't know about AC units. I don't know how to look at that stuff. I don't know how old the roof is.

Interviewer/Moderator (39:41)

Right.

Tony Lopes (39:41)

That's okay. That's what I bring to the table. So for anybody who wants to get into it, understand where you're correct, core value is that you bring to the table.

Interviewer/Moderator (39:50)

Right?

Tony Lopes (39:51)

Maybe it's finding deals. You're excellent at finding deals. Maybe you have a boatload of cash, right? Maybe you got a trust fund that you have to put that cash. Maybe you have cash you can partner with somebody based on bringing cash to the table. Maybe that's your thing. Maybe you're great at property management like I was. There's a number of different things. So that's how I would look at it and say, if I was having a cup of coffee with somebody, I would say, you know, okay, what are you good at? Like, talk to me about it and kind of see if it's a good fit and then go find those other people who need what you have.

Joe Jensen (40:28)

I love that you know, what I'm hearing you say is you're not going to do it on your own at this scale. You're not going to do it yourself. You need to network, find the people, and then put the team together. Everybody has their own strengths. You know, you look like these, the Avengers or these superhero teams, and I'm not into superhero movies really, but, like, it's like, oh, this guy can fly, but this guy's really strong, and this guy can go invisible. And so they end up saving the world because of each of their own little strengths, you know, and it's like, go put your team together based on their individual strengths and then go take down a project, you know? But if you're not, you're not going to do without networking, and you're not going to do it without some strength. Even if your strength is, hey, I don't mind getting my hands dirty, getting my boots dirty, like, I'll go be the person on the ground. I think more and more that's becoming a rarity because so many people are investing out of state and remotely or would rather just do the capital. It's like, who's going to actually get their hands dirty? If you're willing to get your hands dirty and you know, your stuff, you've studied real estate. It's like, that's a double whammy.

Tony Lopes (41:33)

You know, you mentioned networking. I want to share a story, and this is absolutely wild, you know, so networking is huge in the real estate business.

Joe Jensen (41:43)

Sure.

Tony Lopes (41:43)

You know, you know what? I know it, you know, it's kind of like, you know, we feed off of that for. For a lot of different reasons. And so, you know, I was at this, this event, just, just networking. I didn't go there for any particular agenda, but I. It's important for me to be at certain events. So I was there, I was chatting with some folks, ended up chatting with somebody, and come to find out they just sold their family business. And so they sold it for, like, some obscene amount of money. I think it was like $200 million they sold the family business for. And so they were like. And they had some real estate. You know, most wealthy people do have some amount of real estate. And so they. They already had some exposure and some experience with it. And so I. It was. It was a family. Mother, father, a couple of sons older, probably in their early 20s. So we were just, just talking, and the mother was the one who was really more into the real estate piece, and the father was the one running the $200 million business. So I was chatting with them and, you know, talking about, like, what I do. Like, you know, hey, yeah, I like the property management aspect of things, and this is what I do. I go out just like, I just shared, right? And the mother just lit up and she was like, wow. Well, that's what she did, right? When she, her properties, she totally resonated with my story. And she's like, I never buy real estate unless I go out there and I take a look at it. It's so important. And we had such a, an amazing connection on, on that aspect of it, right? Just an interpersonal connection. Right? We're not, we're not looking like, like, I didn't go there to say, you know, hey, you want to invest in my deal? And kind of be all, you know, weird like that. We were just talking about, like, how we do business and, you know, now to be able to approach them and say, hey, we're working on a deal. You know, we're looking to raise, what, $50 million, $25 million, whatever. How much easier is that conversation now with the mother to be able to say, hey, we're working on this deal. She already feels like she knows me, right? Because we do business the same way, right? This is the power of networking, right? You go to a networking event, you meet different people, people. There's going to be some that you don't really align with for whatever reason. There'll be others that you absolutely align with and you want to do business with or you want to do something with. You know, gravitate to those people and make that connection. So those network events, conferences, local events, you know, that local rias, real estate, investment groups offer super important for, for a lot of different reasons.

Joe Jensen (44:38)

Yeah, I think that's so huge. And it's just, you know, in the world of social media, there's so many books, there's so many podcasts, there's so many influencers, so many things. All these people, oh, there's Joe and there's Tony and there's these guys and da, da, da, you know, but really, the guy you're going to want to do is to work with is the guy you've met. You know what I mean? Like, it's the guy that is sitting across the table from you that has done it, and you're just like, oh, you're a human. I trust you. Like, I, I, we, I could see you at the mall or at the store or whatever. It's like, that's who you want to work with. Even though there's the Grant Cardones and the Brandon Turners and all this stuff. Like, you're not going to probably work with them. You're going to work with the person you've actually met in person. You can feel that energy and feel that trust that you really do trust them, you know, and, and that, that's good for the small guy too, because like, you might be a person who's only done four deals, but somebody will rather work with you than, than Tony because they don't know Tony. They're going to what, email you out of the blue and like, I don't know, you know, but they'll work with the guy in their neighborhood because he's done it. You know what I mean? So I think there's a lot to be said about that big time. I love it. I love it, man. There's a couple of questions I want to get to before we completely roll out. I want to give you some time to answer the questions as early as you want to. But what if people do want to invest with you or follow you or, you know, enjoy your journey or connect with you? What's the best way for people to do that?

Tony Lopes (46:05)

Well, a couple of different ways. If somebody has a direct question or they have, you know, something they're, they're working through now, maybe struggling with or whatever, they can always email me, right? Just shoot me an email. I check all my emails personally.

Interviewer/Moderator (46:16)

Right.

Tony Lopes (46:17)

Tonylopesirtybootscapital.com right? Just send me an email there. If you want to know what we do, I do a whole bunch of different things, so just go to my website, dirtybootscapital.com right? Just go there, check us out. You can, you know, schedule a meeting. If you want to have 30 minutes with me, just schedule a meeting there. We can talk, whatever. Just, just let me know where, where you heard me and maybe what you want to talk about. So I can kind of have an idea. But you can schedule a meeting. It's free, 30 minutes. You know, just, just schedule it up.

Joe Jensen (46:48)

That's awesome. Also, what I'll.

Tony Lopes (46:49)

What I'll offer up is if any of your listeners or your viewers want. I, you know, as I was sharing, I spent about four or five years really studying macroeconomics and how. Just all things really work together. So I actually wrote a book and I'll send anybody who wants a free copy. I'll send you out a free copy. Book is called Freedom at Risk. How to protect your personal and financial freedoms. A lot of good information in there, a lot of Good tips in there to help people. If you want a free copy, just send me an email. Tonylopesirtybootscapital.com Shoot me an email and the subject. Put book.

Interviewer/Moderator (47:29)

Right?

Tony Lopes (47:29)

Put book. That way I can kind of sort through it and send them out all together. But, yeah, if. If you want a copy of that book, I'll send it to you free. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm all over social media. You can look me up. Tony lopes on. On a lot of social media or dirty boots capital. You can look me up there, too.

Joe Jensen (47:49)

I love it, man. I love it. I appreciate that. That's some really, like, anybody listening, like, take advantage of that. That's such a value add that Tony's offering for. Just because he just love, like. Like, we're not paying him to be here. He's not getting paid to take your calls.

Tony Lopes (48:04)

Like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Joe Jensen (48:07)

They tell you that, Dang it, you know, but there's something about becoming an evangelist for what changes your life. And. And real estate investors are very unique in that way. I think that maybe they're not, but I see it so much. They just want to share it. They want to share it from the rooftops. Hey, I got my freedom. I got my flexibility. I got out of the hole. I changed my life. I changed my family's life. Like, it's possible. And we just want to share that, you know, and there's so much support in this, in this industry, you know, more than there should be. You're like, yeah, invest in Florida. Like, you're like, hey, become my competitor. So I don't find as many good deals, like. But, like, we do that, and it's crazy, but. But we just love it because it's really helped every aspect of our lives, you know, And I can see that in you that you just love.

Tony Lopes (48:55)

It's so funny, Joe. I use the example, like, when I encourage people to do networking, go to conferences for real estate and different things like that. Like, I use the perspective of if you go. If you. If you were in, like, Pharmaceutics, right, If you worked for a bear or, you know, I don't know, Pfizer or one of those chemical companies, one of those drug companies, and you went to, like, a pharmaceutical conference, do you think the people, like, from one pharmaceutical company would be sharing their trade secrets with the other pharmaceutical companies?

Interviewer/Moderator (49:26)

They wouldn't.

Tony Lopes (49:27)

But you know what, you go to these real estate conferences, and it's like, wow, I'm having a trouble with, you know, tenants or with cash flow. And people will be like. People will gather around you and, like, try to help you troubleshoot that. Did you try this? Did you, you know, did you try to put up a billboard on your property to be able to sell ad space? Did you?

Joe Jensen (49:44)

Here's my lender's contact. Call him. He'll help.

Tony Lopes (49:48)

There's such a help around that, where people want to help you succeed. Succeed, you know, and nobody's looking for money to be able to say, you know, hey, you know, it's just an amazing. It's such a different atmosphere than what? I mean, if. If you work in a W2 job, I get it. But typically in those W2 jobs, you're. You're dealing with maybe trade secrets or, you know, not being able to share certain things. Real estate is such a different atmosphere.

Joe Jensen (50:18)

It really is. I love it, man. Okay, question number one. We got our final four here. Okay, I'm gonna give you four questions, Tony. And question number one. If you could send a text bomb to the world, you. You make a text, everybody's phone's gonna go off. They get a look down, they have a message from Tony Lopes. What's it gonna say?

Tony Lopes (50:39)

Wow. Wow, that's. That's a good one. Were they sent to me in advance?

Joe Jensen (50:44)

Well, I changed that one. I sent you a different one in advance, but I wanted to catch up. Sorry.

Tony Lopes (50:52)

So one of my big things right now is trying to help people from the standpoint of the world is in a very crazy place. There's a lot of people that are struggling financially, emotionally. There's a lot. You never know what people have going on on the other side, Right? So we all have to be conscious of that. And so what I do try to help people with outside of real estate is try to help them find where satisfaction is. Where is satisfaction in your life? Like, what makes you satisfied? And really think about that. To say, what am I chasing? Why am I chasing this? Am I chasing this? Because. Am I chasing real estate? Because I want to follow Tony's dream? Don't follow my dream. I don't want people to follow my dream.

Interviewer/Moderator (51:47)

Right.

Tony Lopes (51:48)

Find your own dream. If it happens to be the same as mine, great, let's talk.

Interviewer/Moderator (51:53)

Right?

Tony Lopes (51:54)

But what makes you satisfied? Is it health? Having good health? Are you going to be able to sleep better? Because, you know, you worked out today and you have a healthy system, eating healthier food, Right. Is it being a better husband?

Interviewer/Moderator (52:09)

Right.

Tony Lopes (52:10)

You know, I've been married, divorced. I've been in relationships.

Interviewer/Moderator (52:13)

Right.

Tony Lopes (52:14)

I look back and I say, you know, I wasn't always present and accounted for in that way. You know, maybe there's something I need to take away from that and say, what would make me a better person, a better. A better husband or a better person? You know, find out where satisfaction is for you.

Interviewer/Moderator (52:31)

Right.

Tony Lopes (52:31)

Separately. Then, you know, obviously, we need money. We talk a lot about cash flow and real estate and all that stuff gets jazzed, you know, But I. I also like to pulse the brakes a little bit and say, what? Why are we here? Why are we doing this? Where's satisfaction in each one of our lives? And remember to live in that vein.

Interviewer/Moderator (52:50)

Right?

Joe Jensen (52:51)

So I love that, man. I love that. I think that's super powerful and. And thought provoking. Yeah. Re, rewind. Listen to that again and then write it, like, sit down, write those answers out. I would encourage each listener because that's some real stuff.

Tony Lopes (53:04)

It. It doesn't. It's not one of those things where you can kind of like, you know, oh, yeah, this makes me sad. No, you. Like you said, Joe, you got to sit. You got to think about it. Maybe the answer doesn't come today or this week or next week, but if you kind of keep it, put a post it note on your front door, on your dashboard, what makes me satisfied? Because you really start to think about it and you really do come to the answer. So I think it's powerful.

Joe Jensen (53:26)

I love that. What makes you satisfied, Tony?

Tony Lopes (53:30)

So. So me just really helping people, you know? And I'll give you an example. I. I was on a phone call with an applicant. I still like to do my own applicant review, my own applications for. For some of my properties. So I had a phone call with an applicant, and I was talking to them about their financials, and I could have very easily, very easily. I'm super busy, as you can imagine. I got a lot of stuff going on.

Interviewer/Moderator (54:00)

Right.

Tony Lopes (54:01)

I could have very easily hung up the phone and been like, no, you don't qualify. Sorry, Good luck. Best of luck. Would I. Could I hang up? I didn't. I didn't. I actually took the time to share with her. This is where you're. You're falling below the mark. You're going to get a lot of no's, and you're going to be spinning your wheels because of this. You need to go work on this. And you know what? She was so incredibly grateful. Nobody ever told me that. Nobody ever shared. You know, people just told me no. And she was so incredibly grateful. I could hear it in her voice. Here I Am telling her something she doesn't want to hear. She doesn't want to hear another, no, I'm not going to rent to you. She came to me for a yes. I'm telling her no. But with that, I'm saying, listen, this is what you gotta fix. I didn't have to spend that time. So what makes me satisfied is truly helping people. And that's. That's what I do for a good part of the day. I'm very fortunate. I'm very fortunate, very grateful for what I have around me and the ability to have the free time to do these sort of things. So that's why I encourage people. Call me, you know, shoot me an email, you know, if you're struggling with something. I'm happy to help if I can. You know, let's just talk. Maybe I can help, but maybe I'm a sounding board for something else. You know, maybe just by you talking about it, you come to the answer yourself, right? Who knows? But that's. That actually makes me satisfied. That makes me what I hope is a good human at the end of the day.

Joe Jensen (55:41)

I love that. That's awesome, man. That's really cool. I was just talking to my therapist today and we talked about service and giving back and that connection and helping people is just like such a powerful way to find happiness. And it seems that that's definitely true for you. Okay, question number two. Book or podcast recommendation?

Tony Lopes (56:03)

You know, I do have a favorite book. It's. And I recommend it all, all the time. I send it to folks. I've actually bought, you know, multiple copies of it and sent it out. It's a book called who not how by Dan Sullivan. If you haven't read it or seen it or anything, it's a fantastic book. You know, who not how. Really what it does is it makes you focus on, you know, you don't have to be the expert on how to do everything. How to underwrite a property, how to get deal flow in your direction, how to be a better property man. You don't have to know how to do all those things, right? You just have to know who in your network or bring them into your network who can do those things for you, right? So it's a really powerful book. It really helped shape my mind and actually is one of the books I read before I get. I got into larger deals and really helped shape my mind to realize I can't be the only one who knows how to do all these things. It's just too much of a.

Joe Jensen (57:04)

Of a.

Tony Lopes (57:04)

Of A business.

Interviewer/Moderator (57:05)

Right.

Tony Lopes (57:06)

So that really helped shape my mind in terms of catapulting me into doing bigger deals. So who, not how by Dan Sullivan. As far as the podcast, I like to Listen to Kenny McElroy. He has a great podcast. He's a, he's a great syndicator doing huge deals. Love to listen to him because his stuff is, is real. I, I actually had the fortunate experience of, of being on his, on his podcast, recording in his studio a couple of years back. Great guy, genuine guy. Just can't say enough. Good. So Kenny McElroy, his podcast is top notch as well as yours, Joe.

Joe Jensen (57:46)

Awesome. Well, I appreciate his, I mean, he's one of the most experienced, well versed in the industry. You know, he's been doing it for so long, so I love his stuff. All right, we're going to bust through these next two real quick here. So what is one of the most expensive or interesting mistakes you've made in real estate investing?

Tony Lopes (58:05)

Wow. So most, most expensive was really doing things I should have hired out.

Interviewer/Moderator (58:13)

Right.

Tony Lopes (58:14)

Again, the, in those cases, just because I knew how to do them didn't mean I should have been doing them.

Interviewer/Moderator (58:23)

Right.

Joe Jensen (58:23)

So really should have been the who, not how there. Even though you have been a who.

Tony Lopes (58:28)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly, Joe.

Interviewer/Moderator (58:30)

Right.

Joe Jensen (58:31)

So don't spend six months rehabbing something. You could pay someone else two months to rehab and have four months profit.

Tony Lopes (58:37)

You know, I was, I was doing jobs that I should have been paying out, you know, 15 bucks an hour at, at that time. And I was doing it myself. And you know, looking back on it, I was like, man, why was I, why wasn't I searching out more deals at that point in time and paying the $15 an hour to somebody else to do that? I should have been focused on where my, where my superpower was and that was finding deals at that particular time and, you know, putting the deal together, the art of the deal, that's, that's what I was able to do, you know. And yeah, I was doing this menial $15 an hour task and I was like, you know, that's, that was a big problem back then that I, that's.

Joe Jensen (59:19)

A really good answer. I don't think I've heard that answer to and as tied to that question before. But I think it's so powerful. I say the biggest mistake is just doing the little things and just when you could be doing the big things. Yeah, forever.

Tony Lopes (59:33)

So I know we got to get through this stuff. You got to go pick up your kids here real soon. But you know, one of the things, one of the tools I use and I, again, it's all about value. Joe and I do this for the listeners, for the viewers, because we want to add so much value to these podcasts. So one of the things I do now daily when I go for my either walk or run, because I want to be physically fit, I want to be healthy, I think about in the morning as I'm doing my activity, my exercise, I'm thinking about, what are the one, two or three things, big things that I want to do today. Not check my email and get distracted with a phone call or something else. Like, what are the big things? Do I want to call a big investor of mine or do I want to create another course? Like, what are the big things that are going to move the needle? And not like this little menial stuff like, oh, I got to go home and do my laundry or I have to go to a grocery store. That's like all little bullshit stuff like, you know, as you're working out or, you know, starting your day, what are the big one, two, or three things you want to get done that day and then go do it right. Don't get distracted with email, because if you always get distracted with email and doing the laundry and doing the groceries and you'll never get that big shit.

Joe Jensen (60:44)

Done, it's so easy to fill the entire day with those little things.

Tony Lopes (60:49)

It is.

Joe Jensen (60:49)

It's endless. It's endless, you know. All right, last one. What is a one word or short phrase to encapsulate why you love real estate investing?

Tony Lopes (61:01)

Cash flow, baby, cash flow. It's all about the cash flow. I mean, it's perpetual, right? It's perpetual. And whether it's just me here on this planet that, you know, I'm trying to create cash flow for myself, or somebody wants to create it for, like, a family, like generational wealth. I mean, you know, cash flow is king. You know, one of the things I, you know, I talk about is when buying property, real estate, number one thing, is make sure cash flows on day one, you know, very soon thereafter. It's so important. Once you cash flow, the business gets so much easier, right? The stress is that much less on you. So cash flow is king for me.

Joe Jensen (61:44)

I love it. Tony, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. We need to have you back on. This has been great. I'd love to do another couple hours, but we do have to go. But thank you for your time.

Tony Lopes (61:53)

Joe, thanks for having me on. This was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Joe Jensen (61:57)

This is Joe Jensen signing off for the Real Estate Investing School podcast, reminding you to invest where you're at.

Interviewer/Moderator (62:08)

SA.