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Real Estate Investing School Podcast
211. Real Estate Law Simplified for Investors with Bishoy M. Habib
00:59:38
In this episode of the Real Estate Investing School podcast, Joe Jensen sits down with Bishoy M. Habib, Esq., a seasoned real estate and business attorney with over 12 years of experience in Florida and New York. Having successfully represented...
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- [00:00]
Bishoy Habib
I promise you, I do this, I get this call every week, sometimes two or three times a week. The mistake you make with contractors is paying them more than they're expected or giving them an advance. That's when they disappear. They won't disappear if you owe them money. I promise you that.
- [00:18]
Joe Jensen
Welcome to the Real Estate Investing School podcast. I'm your host, Joe Jensen. Today's guest is Bishoy Habib. Mr. Habib is a seasoned real estate and business attorney with 12 years of legal experience in Florida and New York. He has successfully represented developers, investors, and even financial institutions in over a thousand different transactions totaling over $12 billion, which is crazy. Starting his career in New York, he specialized in commercial real estate for a Manhattan hotel developer before returning to Florida where he shifted focus to finance law, handling complex financings for local governments and financial entities. Later he transitioned to real estate and business transactions, offering legal support to developers, lenders and real estate brokerages. Known for his strong negotiating skills and investor friendly approach, Mr. Habib is highly recommended for his ability to structure deals to benefit his clients. I'm super excited. We don't have a ton of attorneys on here, so I'm excited to pick your brain and learn what we can from it. But welcome to the show, man.
- [01:28]
Bishoy Habib
Thank you, Joe. I appreciate you for having me on. Excited to be here.
- [01:31]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. This will be fun. Obviously you've had so much experience. You had your hands in, I mean, billions of dollars worth of transactions, thousands of deals. There's so much you can learn just from the reps. When you've done that much, you probably forgot what you've learned at this point. You've learned so much. I'm not that old, but it's funny, the more I do, it's like I forget how cool even the littlest thing at the beginning was, you know, and for so many people that are just starting, it's like each step is mind boggling. I know we're going to dive into like some of the creative finance stuff we're seeing, which for so many people that's like mind blowing when they first learn about it. So anyway, super excited. But tell us a little bit about your story. Like how did you get into to this and, and you know, how does being an attorney and an investor and real estate all work for you personally?
- [02:25]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah. So I'll tell you the backstory. I feel like I was kind of born and bred to do real estate. So my parents came here as immigrants in the 70s and they didn't speak the language, were Egyptian, they didn't speak English. And so my dad, they're all in healthcare. My mom's a dentist, My dad was a pharmacist. But my dad learned pretty quickly that real estate was the path towards prosperity in this country. So he quickly taught himself real estate, listening to tapes, and then started doing it and buying properties off the steps of the courthouse in foreclosure in the 1980s, before it was in vogue. I grew up in that. My first memories of real estate are him driving me around in his minivan to all the properties and just, you know, collecting rent or fixing the properties or whatever. And so I remember negotiating my first commercial lease at the age of 15. I remember thinking, this is awesome. This was before Internet and everything like that. Internet existed, but back then it was just faxing and redlining by hand. And yeah, I felt like I was on top of the world. It was my dad's building, of course. And so I felt like I was kind of destined to do this. So I went to go be, you know, I wanted to become a real estate investor. And so I was like, well, let me get my law degree. Anyway, so I went and did that. Wasn't planning on practicing. And then the market was so soft in 2012 when I graduated that I was like, all right, well, I got this degree. Let me go work. So I moved to New York. I got a job up there working for the hotel developer, like you said, building hotels. So it was really exciting to see every step of the process, from the land acquisition to the financing, to the construction, to the refinancing and the disposition or the stabilization depending on the plan with that property. So for two years I just was really immersed in that world. And you just didn't get deals like that in Orlando, where I grew up in the early 2000s. Now those developments are a little more prominent here in Florida. Florida. And so that was excellent experience. I ended up moving back to Florida to be with, for family reasons, let's say, and then just been locked into the real estate and finance law ever since. And you know, maybe five, six, seven years in, I looked up and I'm like, damn, I'm getting pretty good at this law thing. I might as well just stay as an attorney. And it keeps me involved in the deals because I was always a deal making attorney and that's what I love doing. And I think that's kind of what separates me from other attorneys is I understand the deal from the perspective of every party, including the investor first and foremost. So I can put myself in the client's shoes. And rather than say, no, this is a terrible deal because these are all the risks. It's okay. Yeah, these are the risks. But look, you could 3x your money in 2 years if you play this right and you do the value add like you think. And, and so we can negotiate and leverage that knowledge and insight, not just of the legal field, but also of the intricacies of a real estate investment to really position my clients and myself in the best spot possible to close deals. So, you know, having represented lenders, builders, you know, sellers and buyers, landlords and tenants, I know every angle there is to know if, if I'm working with you. So a year and a half ago, I opened up my own law firm, Legacy Legal, here in Florida. I'm in Tampa. And so we focus on representing, you know, commercial real estate players, you know, lenders and builders and, and investors, obviously, first and foremost.
- [05:53]
Joe Jensen
Man, I love that. You know, it's, it's funny because, yeah, there's a lot of people like, like even agents or attorneys that, like, they do real estate, but they don't understand what an investor is, and they don't understand what the investor's perspective is. And I, you know, I always say if you can find a real estate agent and real estate attorney and all the different pieces that are investors themselves and truly understand that side, it's going to be such a better experience than somebody who's just checking off the box of their one little piece of it that they understand. And, and it's cool, like you said, that you, you've done it from the, the lender side to the investor side to like the attorney side, obviously, so many different angles. So you can see things that most people would probably be very blind to even a lot of, most investors, because they've only seen it from the investor side, you know. Yeah. And, and so that's super cool. Do you invest yourself? Do you have a portfolio? How have you personally invested?
- [06:50]
Bishoy Habib
So historically, I've. The answer is absolutely yes. So historically, I've invested in a limited partner capacity because my time, that's what my time allows.
- [06:59]
Joe Jensen
Sure.
- [06:59]
Bishoy Habib
I've been investing in limited partnerships since I was in college. And, and, and so slowly that's, you know, picked up traction because it kind of rolls over. I've tried a couple flips. I suck at flips. I've learned I don't have the time, I don't have the knowledge, and I don't have the interest in dealing with. I could deal with contractors as an attorney. I don't Want to deal with contractors. As an investor, it's a very different thing. So I've done one flip. I have to do one more. I suck at it. I hate it. I'm not doing any more ever. But as a, as a partnership, I have two business partners, so I have a couple other things. I'm a broker as well. We have a brokerage here in Tampa Bay, Capstone Real estate. We got 20 agents working under us. So I have two partners in that, and they're also the same two partners that I have in the investment side. And that's where we've been rocking and rolling over the past year. We have a team of 10 people full time under us, and we. I think We've closed probably 50 deals in the past year. So a lot of wholesales, a lot of novations, a lot of one, two or three buy and holds, but predominantly just kind of, you know, fix and flips wholesales and novations is what we've been doing. We've. We've done one short sale as well.
- [08:13]
Joe Jensen
Okay. So you have a team put together kind of doing all this so that you don't have to spend all your time and energy on it, since your, your time and energy is better spent doing what you do as an attorney and making capital that way. And then you can just invest it in other people as, as the, you know, the managers and, and, and those who they specialize in that it sounds like.
- [08:35]
Bishoy Habib
Absolutely, absolutely. But it's cool because I'm dealing with the literal problems as an investor that I have my clients dealing with. So I. I'll tell you the phone call I had before I got on. On this show today. I had a client who called me and he was looking to buy a property. It's worth 350. I'm sorry, it's worth 510. He has it locked in at 350. It's going into four. It's in foreclosure, and it's going to be sold in one month. The court just ordered a sale date in one month. So I'm navigating him through this. I'm like, I just went through this as an Investor. There's a $50,000 solar lien on there. I'm telling him, don't pay the solar lien. Let's negotiate with him and knock him down because he's going to get wiped out by the foreclosure anyways. Right. The only reason I know all this is because I just went through something similar on one of our properties that was a Short Sale where we beat up some of these lien holders because they were going to get cut out of the deal anyway. So we gave them something rather than nothing. And by that one phone call, my client's probably going to save 20, 30, or $40,000 just by that one phone call. But that only comes from experience that I've been there and done that with, with my own investments.
- [09:44]
Joe Jensen
Oh, that's so cool. I want to dig into a bunch of that. So one, I think most of the listeners probably know what wholesaling is. You know, you find a deal, get under contract, you sell the, the note or the, the contract to somebody else and you can take a piece in the middle. Kind of like being an agent, but without being on the MLS and an agent. But you mentioned Novation. Now, that's an interesting one. I bet most people don't know all the details of. Why don't you break down what novation is? Maybe we can dive a little bit into Short Sale. Like I said, from especially, like from a legal attorney side, not just some, you know, invest. We see a lot of clickbait, you know, oh, this and that. And it's like no one dives into what's the legality of it because they're just these, you know, young investors who've never hit the wall against how they're actually probably doing it wrong and they don't even know it. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, I'll let you go on that.
- [10:36]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah. So novations. Novation is a Latin word that means new. Right. Novate means new. And so the idea, in the legal sense, forget about real estate, but in the legal sense, in a contract law, when you novate an agreement, it means you basically take the old agreement and you replace it with a new agreement. It's the same fundamental thing when it comes to real estate. So all we're doing, in essence, is, Joe, let's say that you're the owner of the property and the seller of the property. I would come to you and I would say, joe, I'm going to give you $300,000 for this property and I'm going to go ahead and we're very transparent and that's why things work. We're not shady. We don't do that kind of thing because we're all licensed professionals. Right. So we say, joe, we're going to, we're going to give you $300,000 for your property. But here's how it's going to work. We're going to give you that money. You don't have to worry about anything. Don't have to worry about photos, listing, dealing with agents, any of that. We are then going to take and market that property to the public and we might make a profit on it. But whatever we make, we're going to keep above 300 and we're going to get 300 in your pocket regardless of anything else. A lot of people that's appealing to because they just don't want to deal with any of the agents and listing and this and that. So Joe gets his 300. What the contract says and the way we explain it to Joe is if this, if we find an end buyer, then we're going to novate the contract between me and Joe and make it between the end buyer and Joe. Right. And that's the novation. And then if we sell it for 400, we make that 100 and Joe makes the 300. Right. And the buyer pays 400. And that's all innovation is. It gives us. Unlike wholesaling, the biggest difference really is.
- [12:18]
Joe Jensen
That sounds like wholesaling for. Again, I'm not an attorney. So we are to break down the difference between wholesaling, innovation. Because what you described is what I think most people think of as wholesaling.
- [12:29]
Bishoy Habib
It's it, it functions similarly. The big difference is you're then taking the contract that me and you had, ripping it up, and there's a brand new contract between the two parties that we're not involved in. We just get a fee on it. Wholesaling, you're assigning the contract typically, or you're double closing. But if you're assigning it, it's the same contract and I'm just passing it through. The biggest fundamental difference and to your point, it operates similarly in a lot of senses. The biggest difference where novation versus a wholesale comes into play is with the novations. We market those on mls, so we're able to get top dollar for them. We can typically only do well, we could do this with any property, but it works best with properties that are in decent condition. Right? So if your property's in bad shape and you put it on mls, you're not going to get top dollar for it. You might as well wholesale that property to your list, your buyer's list. But if you have a property in good condition and you wholesale, it doesn't make sense because what kind of wholesaler wants to buy a property in good condition, Right? So it's a strategy that just depends on a couple things. Number one, the seller kind of what their situation is if they're willing to let you list it on MLS and the condition of the property. I think those are three big things because, you know, when you wholesale, you can make a smaller fee much quicker because we have our buyers list. We have two or three buyers that every deal we could send them and make a quick 5, 10, 15 or 20. Right. Or we could take an extra 20 or 30 days, get some. But pay someone out of pocket to take photos, clean it up, all that. And then instead of making 10, we might make 40 or 50. And so that's worth it to us. Right. So it's a different strategy. The biggest difference is that with the novation, it's. It's a, It's a new contract between the parties and we can list it on mls, whereas wholesaling, typically, you don't want to do that.
- [14:20]
Joe Jensen
Okay. So, yeah, I guess I don't quite grasp the nuance of the difference then. So. So you can't list wholesale on. On the mls. I guess I have two questions. Yeah. One, like, the deeper difference on those and then two also, like, why would someone want to do that if. If. Because a lot of times the reason they'll go with wholesalers because it can't be listed on the mls, it's not maybe even lendable. Like, you know, it's not. It's. It's so beat up, you can't get a loan on it. Or maybe it's just like a hoarder house and they just don to deal with it. So they don't want to put it on the MLS and do showings, so they do a wholesale. Why would someone do the novation? And then, and then again, what, what's the benefit of not just assigning a contract versus like getting rid of one contract and starting a new contract? And how does that legally work to protect you if they don't like the new contract or something?
- [15:13]
Bishoy Habib
So the, the reason people would do a novation, you would be surprised. I mean, I would. I thought going into this like, endeavor with my partners and my partner kind of showed me the ropes on this in the very beginning, like a year and a half ago. And now I. Now I do it. But I thought the same thing as you. I was like, why would anyone do. They just listed themselves. You would be surprised. People don't want to deal with people. They just, they just like, all right, you inherit a property, a lot of these are properties that they inherited. Right. They didn't pay with their money for this property. So it's like they don't really Know the value. It's not their money. Okay? Like, I live in California. You want to sell my house and put 300 in my pocket, fine. I'm not going to complain because I'm not doing anything with that house anyway. I don't know what to do with it. I don't want to deal with the management of it. So it solves a problem for some people. You're a savvy investor. I'm a savvy investor. I would never do this. Right. Why would I do this? I could just go list it on MLS, even flat feed on MLS, or use an agent for 2%. So it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to me. But we are not in the same situation as these people who are listing the property with us. Right. That's just a fundamental fact. Their reasons behind it is they don't want to deal with the headache of dealing with a realtor, dealing with an agent, but they like dealing with us. That's really the fundamental thing. As far as the novation side of it, you know, to dive a little deeper into it, the way it's all structured as part of our novation. And this is now me giving, you know, spitting game right now. Right? Just kind of putting you on this. We put powers of attorney in there. So we tell them, we say, look, by signing this, you also sign this power of attorney. And it's a limited power of attorney. Right. So it doesn't mean I can go sign for your bank accounts. It's limited to what it says in here. And what it says in here is we can now sign this other contract on your behalf to sell the property to someone else. You don't know what's going on other than we've told you on the front end how it's going to go down. We don't really have to update you anymore. Except at closing, the seller does have to sign the deed, but. But we can sign pretty much everything except the closing documents for them. So we could sign the. That. We could sign the. The new contract, we could sign the addendums, we could do everything. But then when they close, we have to say, okay, now you got to give the deed to this buyer. That's not the case in a wholesale situation by any means. So that's another big advantage and difference between the two.
- [17:31]
Joe Jensen
Does the seller even see the final sale price and know the spread you get and any of those details, if you're being able to sign everything for.
- [17:39]
Bishoy Habib
Them, they typically do. They don't Care. In the case where we felt like they would care, we can figure out ways to either double close if we're making enough money, or we could. If it's a cash closing or a private money closing, we could just have a buyer side HUD and a seller side hud. If it's conventional financing, then there has to be the cd, the closing disclosure, which shows everybody's numbers. So it's a little bit trickier. I will just tell you, man, honestly, if you're forthright with the people that you're working with, you know, a lot of times they don't care. Sometimes they're like, oh, you're making a hundred on this. Like, and then we'll throw them another five or ten, because let's just get this thing done. But at the end of the day, as long as we're transparent with people, then, you know, and I'll tell you, like, there's a wholesaler that I'm considering going after right now because they were not transparent. Right. And we've done that before to where they're completely lying to people and not telling them what's going on and putting them in a bad spot. And that's not something you should ever do. There is liability if you do that, and it'll just catch up to you. I mean, karma will catch up to you and your reputation will catch up to you. So don't do that. Be. Be transparent about your intentions and you'll still get the deals closed and you'll. You'll find wins. We have these sellers make testimonial videos for us when they're done.
- [18:59]
Joe Jensen
That's cool. Yeah. And it's interesting going back to, you know, why people would do it. Like most, most things, honestly, that we spe money on in today's society is convenience. We want convenience. I mean, that, that's most of what we spend our money on. You know what I mean? We. We pay for the convenient of being able to flip a switch and the light turns on. Like, that's why we pay the electric company. You know, we could stoke a fire, but that's inconvenient.
- [19:27]
Bishoy Habib
The last thing I read last night before I went to sleep was I've been reading Alex Hormozy's $100 million offer. It's literally like over there, the book. But the last thing I was reading last night was he just has this equation. I don't know if you're a hor mosi guy. I was. I didn't. Wasn't really in there until about Two months ago, a month and a half ago. I'm like, dude, this guy is on something else. So he's just talking about how, you know, making an offer so good that, you know, you'd feel. Someone would feel stupid refusing the offer. Right. And the biggest thing that I'm reading about last night before I slept was the convenience thing. He's like, you know, why is. Why are people willing to pay $50,000 for liposuction but they won't pay $100 for the gym? It's convenience, right? You just want that instant gratification. And so to your point, people will pay an arm and a leg for now, this is the society of now, the whole. Every generation, we're getting less patient. Every generation, we're getting more, you know, I need instant gratification. And so there's a huge market in any, any, any space you're in, whether it's real estate or not, man, if you go make people's lives convenient and save them time, there is absolutely a market for what you're doing.
- [20:38]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. And for everybody, it's. It's for, for the experienced, advanced, wealthy, super intelligent to the poorest, most, you know, uneducated. Like, everybody wants convenience. You know what I mean? We pick our battles. But, like, I think of transportation, right? Like, you know, you know, you could just take public transportation. You're gonna have to walk down the bus stop, schedule around their schedule, take twice as long to get there, but it's going to cost you 12 bucks a month or something. You know, when you own a car now, you've got a car payment and insurance, and you got to park your car. And like, there's so many expenses. But we eat. Uber eats, bro. Yeah, come on, crazy. You know.
- [21:16]
Bishoy Habib
$60 for this meal, or you could drive there and pay 20. I don't want to waste 30 minutes driving. I'm going to spend $60. It's insane.
- [21:24]
Joe Jensen
Yeah, people will pay an astronomical amount for convenience. And, and that's why people do wholesaling innovations or even using agents at all. You know, people talking about, well, why would someone wholesale. Why would Some ovation. Why would you use an agent and give up 6%, maybe of the, you know, people are paying 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, $100,000 in commissions because it's convenient. They don't have to go learn all the laws and the tricks and like, you know, why do you hire an attorney? You could represent yourself, but I'd rather have you do it right, because that's a lot more convenient than Me going to law school and learning everything, you know what I mean? And so there's a time and a place for all of it, you know what I mean? If you find the right people, it's a huge win. Win. I just bought a house that the. It's never. It hasn't been touched. This old lady owned it, like an old grandma, kept it beautiful doilies, like, pictures up, like, and she ended up passing away. And the kids live out of state. They don't want anything to do with it, you know, and it's this, like, cheap little house. It's not even worth a ton. And, like, they never even went and took the pictures down. I mean, I bought this place. It is fully furnished. Every doily is still up, every family picture still up. Like, no one has lifted a finger because they didn't. They don't want to fly to some small town in Texas. And what are they going to do, you know, with this? You know, they just. Convenience, you know? And so, yeah, I got a fully furnished home, you know, and so it's like, cool, I'll just turn around, Airbnb it or whatever. It's fully furnished as well, you know, so convenience is usually the pro. The answer to most people's problems, you know.
- [23:02]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. This is the time.
- [23:06]
Joe Jensen
Yeah, that's really interesting. I still, like. And I don't want to beat a dead horse, but I assume I'm not the only one who's ignorant enough to, like the difference between Novation and wholesale, though. Like, why would I when what's the scenario where I would prefer to just wholesale it or should I novate it? And, like, because it sounds like it's just kind of a difference legally and just like, how you do the contract or you're signing a contract or you're creating a new contract sounds like the legal difference, but I feel like I'm missing something of why one's more popular than the other, why we do it one way or another.
- [23:42]
Bishoy Habib
So typically, like I said, the Novation is going to be better suited for, like, a property that's in better condition and you want to sell to an end user and the seller is probably a little bit more understanding or flexible and willing to let you go public with it, because then you can sign a secondary contract with the end buyer based on the power of attorney. You're right. And I know. I understand the confusion. Trust me. I answer this question all the times. What's the difference? It's not. It's not like there's the fundamental difference Let me put it to you this way. From my perspective, I don't really care. It's the same thing to me, right, as an invest, as the middleman, I'm still ma. I'm still finding a property off market, taking it to somebody who wants to buy it for more money and making the spread. That's it. It's the same thing. So fundamentally, it's the same thing. It's just the function of how it's done and the rights that we have and the rights that each party has, it's a little bit different. Right. So, yeah, you know, I don't, I don't want it to get too confusing here and make it seem like it's this whole other, you know, like we're not talking about like a subject to transaction. We're not talking about a short sale, which is just fundamentally completely different. We're talking about like their cousins, right? So it's like one transaction and this one's a little different, but same end result and same general pattern. So I don't know. I, I don't, I don't want to make it seem like it's a huge thing, but, but they're similar, but different.
- [25:10]
Joe Jensen
So what I'm hearing, I think is one of the biggest differences is having that power of attorney and the power to create a new Novate agreement allows you to, like you say, do a lot more things you wouldn't typically be able to do in a wholesale because you can't represent the seller, you can't make decisions for the seller, you can't sign anything for seller. All you can do is, you know, assign the contract, you know, so you're kind of limited when it's wholesaling. But with novating and the limited power of attorney, it seems like you have a lot more power to, to do more stuff like listed and do, you know, just work in their behalf. Is. Is that accurate?
- [25:46]
Bishoy Habib
That's 100 accurate. And I'll bring up one more thing here on this topic is what some of my investors do on the novation side because they have more power, they have more time. So, like, look, on a wholesale, you have how long to really find an end buyer? 5 days, 10 days, you know, 20 if you can really, you know, 30 if you're like really in with the seller, but with the novation, you have time. We get these at like 90 days, typically to give us a lot of, a lot of Runway if they'll agree to that. So the thing is, some of my investors, what they'll do is they'll take an ovation. It may not be a pretty property that's ready to list, but they'll go ahead and take the chance. Right, because these guys have their crew, or maybe they are GCs and they'll say, look, here's what's going to happen. We're going to do, we're going to put it under contract as a Novation contract and we're going to put $5,000 of our own money into this and we'll take that chance because we think there's that much upside if we just kind of tweak some things and then they'll do that. But they have so much more Runway and they have less risk because they have a longer time frame to buy a find a buyer. Those people typically will always have a backup plan too, in case they can't find a buyer. Maybe they'll close on it themselves so they don't just throw money with no idea how they're going to recoup it. But you would never do that with a wholesaler. You're not going to put 5 or 10k of your own money into it, but you would with an ovation because there's more time and you have the ability to extend a contract, sign a contract, all that with the power of attorney. So it really gives you more flexibility in that regard as well.
- [27:20]
Joe Jensen
Yeah, I'm glad you hit that because that's where I actually first heard about Novation was in a way to almost flip homes without having to go buy the home because, you know, you can go flip it. Tradition where you go get some hard money, you kind of lowball them, you buy it with, you know, hard money and then you fix it up, turn around, sell it, pay off your hard money lender and take a profit, you know. But if you novate the whole thing, you don't even have to buy it. You just say you get the Novation agreement, that you're going to sell it and you almost partner with the seller and say, hey, we're going to go fix it up. It's going to be worth X amounts. We'll be able to get you way more. But it all happens at close and you're not fronting any money or besides the rehab and having to pay big, you know, hard money fees and, you know, percents up front, how many points you're going to have to pay and a high interest rate for six to eight months. And if it drags on, you know, it's like if you novate with them, it's almost like you're a little more partners on it because they still own it and you. Anyway, that was the first example I'd heard of doing innovation was for kind of flipping without having to buy it and close on it first. So that plays right into what you described. So that's super cool.
- [28:29]
Bishoy Habib
And it, and it is a partnership, by the way, because they're not getting paid unless you get paid. Right. So they're rooting for you to do a good job and to find an end buyer. Like they're not rooting against you, you know, so it is a partnership in that sense, for sure.
- [28:43]
Joe Jensen
That's super cool. So yeah, I love talking about creative real estate, especially with an attorney because like I say, there's a lot of talk out there and a lot of people only know what they know. You know what I mean? I only know I've done a subject to purchases and things like that, and I've done seller financing, but I only know what I know to get that one or two deals done. I don't know the full legal implications of implications of it all. So novation wholesale. Let's talk briefly about short sale. I know that used to be really hot and then I feel like it's kind of not been as popular, but maybe that's just in the circles I've been listening to. Sounds like you're still doing short sales. Break down for the listeners what a short sale is and how that's an interesting way to do real estate investing.
- [29:35]
Bishoy Habib
Short sale is just a fancy way to say that the bank accepts less money than they're owed for you to take the property off their hands. So somebody bought a property for $400,000 and took out a loan for $300,000. That property. Now the market got worse and the person left the property in a very bad condition. Typically short sales, the properties are in bad condition. And so it's like a zombie house. And so if the market, if the, if the property were in good shape, it would be worth what the loan is worth, which is, let's say it's at 300. But because it's in bad shape, the property is actually only worth 250. So now we go to the bank and we say, look, your Property's not worth 300. You're underwater on the property. Underwater means you have less equity, negative equity in the property. So we go to the bank and we say, look, I mean, this property's worth 250. We'll give you 250 for it. You gotta accept 250 and waive the differential. Right, the 50,000. And, and, and we'll take it off your hands. Right. So you don't have to deal with it, you don't have to pay. You could take it off your balance sheet and lend that money somewhere positive. And at the end of the day, that's all lenders want to do. They just want to keep the money on their balance sheet as, as, as much money on their balance sheet as possible and lend as much as possible. They don't want money tied up in bad deals. So.
- [30:57]
Joe Jensen
And what they don't want is, is real estate. And that's something people need to realize. Like banks don't want to own property. They do not want to foreclose your house and take the house and go rent it out. Like they're not, that's not their lane. Like say their lane is to lend. The last thing they'd want to do. Talking about convenience again, right? They don't want to take this house and rehab it and sell it. Like that's just not their focus. And so they'll take a fifty thousand, a hundred thousand dollars bath to just clean things up and go to the next one and keep lending and moving their money. Because that's what they do. They don't want to own houses.
- [31:30]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah, yeah. Well. And to your point, though, you said short sales are harder to come by. So after the 08 financial crisis, I mean, there were short sale galores and everybody was getting involved in short sales. I wish that I was active back then. I was in law school at the time. I wish I was an attorney at the time because I would have killed it back then. But you're right that we bought a couple short sales back in the day. But the reason that they're harder to come by and they are coming back. But the thing is the banks wised up, right? Or the lenders wise up. And so they know now they, they, like you said, they took a bath last time they got worked in these negotiations. And what was happening is one investor might be friends with the loss mitigation department, you know, the head of the loss mitigation department. And then all of a sudden they're just like, this guy doesn't care how much money the laws really doesn't care how much money the bank's losing. He has an order to just get rid of the properties. So if he knows this investor will buy everything, he's just funneling everything to one investor, two investors or five investors. He's not giving it a fair shake to make the bank back top dollar in, you know, considering the conditions. And so what they did, the lenders is they were like, we're not getting worked again. We're going to create a system that's universal and make it fair and make it so that like, you know, it has to be a more systematized process so that it's not just like backdoor handshake deals where probably shady things going on. Actually definitely shady things going on because I can tell you that from experience, from people I've spoken to. So it's harder to do short sale deals now. The banks have their guard up, they're still doing them, but it's just a different era.
- [33:15]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. So someone wants to do a short sale. So someone's getting foreclosed on. Someone's like, hey, I'm going to lose my house. Can you help me out? You know, a creative investor that found me and you're like, yeah, maybe we could short sell it. Can they just go talk to the bank directly? Do they need an attorney to do that? How do they like negotiate with the bank to say, hey, we want to, you know, give you less than the notes even worth?
- [33:40]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah. So the first thing is you have to get under contract with the buyer and obviously understand the situation. Once you have a contract with the buyer, that gives you a lot more leverage to open that negotiation. You really need to be working with somebody who knows about short sales. You don't necessarily need an attorney, but an attorney absolutely helps. There are agents who are very good at what they do and focus on short sales. So those would be good resources for you. But those guys have their attorneys too, and I work with some of those agents to where we get in the mix. And it just holds more weight because the lender is not going to talk to an agent. I mean, they will, but they're not going to take them as seriously. That's just the reality of the matter. But me as, let's call it, investor counselor, borrower's counsel, lenders counsel is going to pick up the phone when I call the bank's attorney. And that's how we get things moving and shaking and that's how we get to the bottom line. And so if we need to file motions in the case, if we need to extend the, the sale date, you know, if we need to be aggressive, whatever we need to do. I mean, it absolutely helps to have an attorney because you as an agent, you as an investor, you're not allowed to just intervene in the court case because you're not a Party an attorney can with, you know, doing the right things. So I would say not necessary 100%, but very much going to help your cause if you have an attorney in the mix.
- [35:06]
Joe Jensen
Makes it more convenient. Right. So, so but when you get it under contract, is that just a normal real estate purchase contract? You just get contract saying you'll buy it for let's say the 250 and then you go negotiate with the bank through your attorney or whatnot with that. Or is it a special kind of short sale contract?
- [35:26]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah, subject to short sale. I mean, obviously we have custom short sale contracts. You don't need one, you just need a regular contract and you just need to make it subject to short sale approval by lender.
- [35:38]
Joe Jensen
Okay. So that's like a contingency basically on it, like, hey, I'm buying this.
- [35:42]
Bishoy Habib
It's a contingency. Yeah. So let me, let me walk the viewers through the basic how the short sale process works. So we sign that contract, you and I, it's your property, you're underwater. It's your second home or you inherited it, whatever. You're just like, get me out of this. I just don't want this on my credit. Right. I sign a contract with you for that 250. And then the next step is we go in there and we take a bunch of pictures of the property and we show that, look, this property is in really bad condition. It's going to need $50,000 worth of renovations. So we take that, we document it, we create what we call a short sale package and we send it off to the lender. And in that package we explain this is the work that needs to be done. We send them comps, we say this property is not worth anywhere near what you think it is and therefore you need to accept our offer of 250. They come back, they'll send their person out to the property to inspect it. And we go back and forth. Eventually, if we can come to a middle ground, that's when the sale will happen. That'll be the new purchase price. The buyer in the short sale, the buyer is not allowed to walk away with any money. So they can walk away with what we call reload fees, relocation fees, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 bucks. But other than that, the bank will not allow them to walk away with any money. And then when it comes to short sales, there's certain contingencies that you can't resell the property for a certain period of time. Again, this is the banks wising up from the 08 era. When people were just flipping them the next day. So now there's clauses or affidavits you have to sign that you won't flip the property for 30, 60 or 90 days. And there's ways we can create land trusts to kind of help alleviate some of those things to avoid you breaching those agreements or affidavits that you're signing. So there's ways around that, but that's the basic premise of it. And then, you know, our short sale lasted almost a year, which is not, not abnormal. Right. So it's like a nine month process is a pretty typical time frame for a short sale.
- [37:43]
Joe Jensen
Because. Because banks are just slow to work with. Basically they're like government agencies. They're just like, hate their freaking time. Yeah.
- [37:53]
Bishoy Habib
They don't care about your $400,000 property.
- [37:56]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. Cool. Okay, let's. I want to keep diving into all this. I'm just going hard on you. Let's talk about subject two. That's obviously getting more and more popular now with really high interest rates and all these old loans with low interest rates. It's like, it makes a lot of sense for a lot of people. What's the good, the bad and the ugly about? Subject to.
- [38:20]
Bishoy Habib
Subject to transactions.
- [38:22]
Joe Jensen
Again, subject to. You know, they say you can subject to leaving the existing loan. Subject to short sale. Subject you can use a lot, but that's kind of popular phrase nowadays. Is there a more accurate term for what you call it? But anyway, I'll let you talk.
- [38:36]
Bishoy Habib
No, I mean that's colloquially subject to is. Is. That's what it refers to. Now subject to is a legal term you could put in front of anything. But in this sense, yeah, you're right. This is what it really stands for. So sub to, subject to. And I'll just give a one sentence summary of what that means. So subject to transactions. When I buy Joe's property and instead of paying him the full amount, we don't pay off the mortgage, I just take over that mortgage. I do not assume the mortgage. That's different assumption. Means it's transferred into my name as a buyer and I pay it. Most lenders do not let you assume their mortgages, especially if the rate is below market, which if you're doing a subject to, it's going to be a below market rate. And that's why people do them. The idea is that the property that I'm buying from Joe that he bought in 2021 at a 3.5% interest rate, it wouldn't make sense for me to buy it at a 7% interest rate, but it does make sense for me to buy at a 3.5% interest rate. So I buy it, we keep the mortgage on there. Therefore I'm buying it subject to the mortgage that's on there. We have our own internal agreement, Joe and I, that I'm going to continue paying mortgage, insurance, taxes, expenses, whatever. And I maybe I agree to pay him a monthly payment, maybe not. That just depends on the situation. And then, you know, and then Joe's got to hope that I make the payment. And I got to hope that Joe doesn't tell the bank what's going on and call the loan due. The reason that we want to, so, you know, both sides have leverage in the situation. It's a very interesting situation. I've represented sellers, I've represented borrowers. I know each is pain point. I know each his strengths. You have to. You're going to be in bed with this person or with other party for a long time, or at least until the property, you know, you sell the property, let's say. So there has to be an element of trust. You both kind of have the nuclear option and hopefully no one takes it because the risk to the seller is their credit and possibly a deficiency judgment. So if they foreclose, the bank forecloses. First of all, that hurts Joe's credit as the seller. And second of all, if they don't recoup all their money, there's a chance they go after Joe for what we call the deficiency judgment. Right. It could be 50,000, $100,000. They may pursue that. They really might. The risk to me as a seller, as the buyer is I might have put up $50,000 at the closing or $100,000 or whatever, or paid all this money to the lender. And now I'm losing the property if they call the loan due. So both sides have risk. And the way that we create the subject to transactions in the most efficient way possible is using land trusts. That's what I've been doing. And the reason we do it, first of all, it doesn't alert publicly the bank that the property is transferring to a new party. We typically structure it so that it looks like the current owner is just moving into a land trust for their own sake. If the bank catches on, we can point to the Garnes Saint Germain act of 1980, which stipulates that a bank cannot call a loan due if the person moved it into a revocable trust for estate planning purposes. Right. And so that's what we'll argue if the bank does find out. And, and so we structure it inside the land trust so that the seller of the property is selling a beneficial interest in the land trust to the buyer of the property. I know that's a lot. I know that's a lot.
- [42:20]
Joe Jensen
It's good though. It's good. I like it. You know, I've done it so that I'll actually sound familiar to me. But that's true for somebody who's never heard of like, what was all that mean? But that's good. I like a couple things. I want to break down on that one. I like that you mentioned everybody. Your incentives are very aligned with the, the seller and the, and the, the buyer and the seller. Like no one wants the note called. You both want to make the payments like it's in everyone's best interest. Like sometimes deals are kind of set up where it's like if someone messes up, it's like, ooh, I'm going to win really big. You know, it's kind of like your incentives are contradictory but in subject to. It's like everybody besides the bank, you know, the buyer and seller are very much on the same page of what they want. No one wants to screw this up. They want you to make the payments. You want to make the payments. Like it's kind of a win win. No one's like, really? You're both at risk in the same way. So I like that the incentives are aligned. When I did it, we did an all inclusive trust deed to file it. Almost like a seller financing. But I'm in Utah now. You talk about land trust. I don't think Utah does land trust. I don't know if you're familiar with Utah because you work in New York and, and Florida, but what is a land trust exactly? Because again, I don't, I don't think, I've never done one. I don't think they do land trusts in Utah.
- [43:39]
Bishoy Habib
Yeah, so you're right. Only certain states have land trust statutes. I think six states have land trust statutes. Most states have some kind of an idea of land trust. But Florida, where I practice, is the number one state for land trust. It's the best. It's been state law since 1963, which is 20 years before LLCs. Which is why I love land trusts so much and I, you know, I'm writing a book on them. But the point is the land trusts are an entity. It's a way to hold real estate. All the land trust can ever do is hold real estate. It's his only possible function. And what it does is it provides you anonymity, which is it keeps your name off the public record so the public doesn't know who owns it, which is why it works with the subject to. Because the bank doesn't know technically what's happening inside the trust in Florida alone is the only state in the union. Florida. It has limited liabilities, just like an llc. So if someone slips and falls in your property that's in a land trust, they cannot sue you personally, Joe. They can suit a land trust, but they can't come after you. And then the third major benefit to it is estate planning. So within the land trust, we can dictate, when I die, I want my kids to get this property. And as soon as I die, they get the property. It's no probate. It doesn't have to go through any other court process, unlike if you had it in an LLC or in your personal name, which is huge, because that could save you 6, 9, 12 months after you die of them getting the property. Another thing a lot of people are dealing with the BOI, the beneficial ownership of interest that FinCEN is regulated. That's taking place January 1st of 2025. If you're not familiar with it and you have LLCs or corporations, get familiar with it, because you could theoretically go to jail if you're not cooperating, according to the Department of State. But every entity has to register except land trusts. Land trusts do not have to register with FinCEN, at least as of now. So no reporting requirements, no annual fees. And it's a phenomenal way to hold real estate. And the best story to tell is Disney World in Florida bought all their land using trusts back in the 1960s. And the reason they did that is because back in California, when they bought Disneyland, the land people found out who was buying the land and jacked up the price. And that's why Disneyland in California is significantly smaller. They learned about land trust. Walt Disney came to Orlando. He used land Trust to buy 27,000 acres of land in Orlando, Florida, on the low, very cheap. And that today is Disney World. And that's all thanks to land trusts. And so that's an optimal way to use land trust. But they're so versatile and they work in subject to transactions and all kinds of transactions as well.
- [46:25]
Joe Jensen
Oh, man, Sounds awesome. I wish we had it in Utah. Maybe we have something similar, I don't know. But so to a point of clarification, so the land trust, it's a trust, right? Just like you can have like a family trust or different kinds of trust. So the trust actually owns the property. Just like an LLC would own the property, but then I'm the owner of the LLC or a beneficiary of the trust. Is that correct?
- [46:50]
Bishoy Habib
Yes, that's exactly right. So there's two main parties, right? There's a trustee whose name appears on title, and they're the ones who have to sign the documents. But that's a. That's a legal position, but they don't actually have any say in what happens with the property. That's the beneficiary, which is the second party, which would be the true owner of the party. So let's say hypothetically, you called me Joe and you were buying a property in Florida. The way it would work is I would set up a land trust for you. We'd create a land trust agreement. In that agreement, we would stipulate I am the trustee. I have no actual authority. I'm just going to sign whatever you tell me to sign. If you want me to sign a lease, I sign a lease. If you want me to sell the property, I sign a deed. To sell the property, I sign the deed. But you make all the decisions. If you want to transfer to someone else inside that trust, you can just say, inside the trust, I'm deeding this to my sister. But it's not a deed. It's a beneficial interest assignment inside the trust. So I am on title on the public record as a trustee and the trust, but nobody knows you actually own it and you actually control it. And that's kind of the point.
- [47:58]
Joe Jensen
Are those trustees your position? Are those typically attorneys and whatnot that are in that position, or who would that typically be?
- [48:05]
Bishoy Habib
It's. It's. It's attorneys, it's CPAs and. And sometimes it's financial institutions.
- [48:12]
Joe Jensen
Cool. That's awesome. Are you familiar if there's something similar in the states that don't do land trust? What's like the next best thing for everybody listening? Super jealous of land trusts. Is there? What's their best option? And maybe you don't know if you don't practice law in those states.
- [48:27]
Bishoy Habib
There are land trusts in other states. The problem is that outside of the six or seven states that have land trust laws, it's like the issue is you're running the risk. If you get into litigation, how are the courts going to perceive it? Right. So in Florida, there's no risk because it's established by law. Tennessee is the same way. Illinois, where land trust started, is the same way. But if you go to, like, I mean, let's say Utah and I don't know Utah, but if Utah doesn't have a statute and you get into a litigation, the risk you run is how does the court interpret this? What do they. How do they view this? Are they going to view this as an LLC or as me personally or what? Because there's no guidelines, right? So that's the risk you run. You can still use Land Trust in other states. I know attorneys who do, and I know investors who do. I just don't know the ramifications if things go sideways. So that's the most I could say on other states, unfortunately.
- [49:21]
Joe Jensen
Cool. No, that's great. That's awesome, man. I can't believe we've already been talking for 50 minutes. I'm like, I want to keep going for hours on this stuff. It's super interesting. Like Sandy very. You actually know the stuff. And I mean, guys, this. Attorneys are expensive, right? And we really appreciate you giving this, you know, free advice, free time. You know, this is hundreds of dollars, if not thousands of dollars worth of advice that people are getting to just pick your brain on through me on this podcast. We really appreciate that. Any other final thoughts or, you know, interesting techniques people could use for creative buying or anything people should keep in mind with, subject to or any of the other things like that?
- [50:05]
Bishoy Habib
You know, it's very important that you understand before you sign the subject to paperwork internally between the buyer and seller, what everybody's responsibilities and rights are. Because now that I've done it so much, I've seen the things that go sideways. Insurance is a big one. Who's named on the policy? Is there additional insureds? What are the policy limits? Those are all things that are very important that people don't think about because they're just in a desperate situation sometimes. So make sure you understand that. Make sure you understand what your remedies are in case the buyer defaults, if you're the seller and if you're the seller and you're paying the buyer, because sometimes what happens is I might pay the money to the buyer, who then pays the lender. Make sure you're asking for proof of payment, make sure you're asking for receipts, make sure you're asking for access to the portal. So there are very much risks to both parties. And it's like you said, it's just one of those things that's so interesting because there's so many different angles and so many different things that could be an issue. But when it Works, it's a beautiful thing. When it doesn't work, it could get ugly. But just make sure you have an experienced person reviewing that or drafting that for you. And if you're in Florida, you know, hit me up and is what I do so I can absolutely take care of you. But make sure somebody who knows what they're doing is reviewing those internal documents.
- [51:25]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. And what is the best way for people to get in touch with you, reach out to you if they want to, you know, buy, you know, and use you for, you know, in New York or new in Florida? Are those the two main states you practice in?
- [51:37]
Bishoy Habib
I pretty much am just in Florida now. My license is active in New York, but I refer stuff out to my old firm up there. New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, anybody up there. So best way to reach me though, if you're on social media, all platforms. Turnybishoy attorney spelled out and then B I S H O Y just like my first name. Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. I'm on LinkedIn under my full name, Bishoy Mhabib. And if you don't do any of that stuff, you know, my law firm's name is Levesy Legal. L E V a c y legal l e g a l.com 813-553-2699 awesome guys.
- [52:19]
Joe Jensen
Soup. Super awesome. It's so good to have somebody in your corner that knows their stuff and you know, it's legitimate and is is good. You know, it's in a world of easy to reach people. The world's very small. We can reach, you know, people all over. It's easy to get scammed. I've had lenders reach out to me and start to get documents that they aren't even really lenders and they're just scamming. And you give your whole world to lenders, you know what I mean? And same thing with attorneys, you reveal a lot of stuff. And so to have somebody that you know is 100% legit is actually more beneficial than people realize, especially when you're starting to work out of state. I do a lot of remote buying out of state and when you can't meet people face to face, it creates a new dynamic. So anyway, super grateful to have you in our corner and to know who you are and, and be able to work with you. It makes me want to buy some stuff in Florida. So maybe I'll start join the party, get some land trusts. I love it, man. Well, that's exciting. I'm going to bust through a Couple fire questions at the very end here. We'll go through about four questions, and you can just kind of give me a fast answer on those, and then we'll let you go.
- [53:29]
Bishoy Habib
Let's run it.
- [53:30]
Joe Jensen
Okay. Question number one. If you could send a text message to the whole world, you know, you pull your phone, write it out, everybody's phone goes off, they see a message from you, what's it going to say?
- [53:46]
Bishoy Habib
Do the right thing. Choose love. I don't know, something positive that people just need to just always choose the right thing. Because sometimes it's hard, but it always pays off. Do the right thing.
- [53:57]
Joe Jensen
I love that. I love that book or podcast recommendation.
- [54:03]
Bishoy Habib
I'm literally reading Hormozy's 100x100 million dollars offer right now. Phenomenal book. Also, buy back your time. Dan Martell.
- [54:14]
Joe Jensen
Both really good ones. All right, what's one of the most expensive or interesting mistakes you've made, or in your case, maybe even seen in real estate investing?
- [54:29]
Bishoy Habib
Probably trusting a wholesaler that I mentioned earlier on this podcast that I'm probably going to go after now for six figures, because it was somebody that was a client of mine and just found out that what he did to me was actually just not even. I mean, he embezzled hundreds of thousands of dollars. He stole money from his cousin. So I didn't know that. I thought I knew who I was getting in bed with. But just be very careful who you're getting in bed with and who you're trusting to do your projects and things like that. That's. That was the biggest investment mistake I've made.
- [55:03]
Joe Jensen
Yeah. Maybe if you have a second. What. What did the wholesaler do? And I was going to ask you this when you first brought it up, and I forgot, so I'm glad you brought it up again. What did the wholesaler do so that people can be aware of, like, how they could get burned by a wholesaler, how wholesalers can, you know, take advantage or cheat, you know, what. What is this? What was the case in this one?
- [55:23]
Bishoy Habib
You know, I. I'm almost embarrassed to say this because I know better as an attorney, I deal with it all the time. But I. This was a client of mine. I did a bunch of closings for them. I saw the money coming in. I was like, okay, this is a legitimate person. So I kind of trusted them and let my guard down. So the mistakes I made, number one, there was no written agreement. Right. Well, I would. I would rip my client's head off if they came in and told me that. But here I am, right? It's. It's like the heart surgeons who eat McDonald's for dinner every day, right? It's like the same thing. So that's number one. Number two, I kind of let him get ahead, and so I probably trusted him too much. So the project was in a different city, like an hour and a half away. I could visit it that often. And then what was actually what was supposedly happening, what was, wasn't what was actually happening. So I was paying money that wasn't going to the project, trusting this person. And then I came to find out that that money was not being used for that. This dude fled and just kind of disappeared, went mia and so I was stuck holding the bag, and I figured it all out. But don't let anyone get ahead of you, right? Never let anyone get ahead of you, especially a contractor, because that's when they vanish, right? And what I mean by don't let anyone get ahead of you. Don't pay them before they do the work. Make sure that you're checking every time that you pay them, that everything that they said is complete. Get receipts from Home Depot or Lowe's. But. But I promise you, I do this. I get this call every week, sometimes two or three times a week. The mistake you make with contractors is paying them more than they're expected or giving them an advance. That's when they disappear. They won't disappear if you owe them money. I promise you that. So get it. Get it in writing. Get it in writing. Don't let anybody get ahead of you. I would say those are the big two. And then, you know, just try to get referrals from people. This guy was not a referral. He just kind of was a client of mine that came out of the blue. So make sure you vet this person through referrals, because it's hard otherwise to trust someone. And now I only deal with people who come referred from people I trust.
- [57:21]
Joe Jensen
Oh, man, that is. I mean, if anybody's listening, like, I've done a lot of these interviews, and if you did those three things, it would solve the large majority of issues that people run into. And it's funny because, you know, you get confident, you'd want to trust people. It makes it a lot easier if you can. And so sometimes like, dude, let's just roll. Let's do it. I'm excited. Everybody's gonna make money. It's a win win. Let's just go for it. You know, it's easier to do that. Like I said, even as A professional real estate investor as an attorney than it sounds like, because in the moment, it just looks so good and easy, and it's like, cool, let's rock and roll. But I love that. Don't let them get ahead. Get it in writing.
- [58:03]
Bishoy Habib
And referrals.
- [58:04]
Joe Jensen
Yeah, use referrals with the lenders. Right. I started getting in depth with this one lender and found out they were a operation, like, weren't even a lender at all, you know? And so, yeah, you want real people, real attorneys, real lenders, real wholesalers. Get referrals. People have done a full transaction with that person, and it'll help you avoid a lot of issues. I love it, man. Super cool. Okay, one last thing. What's one word or short phrase to encapsulate why you love real estate investing?
- [58:36]
Bishoy Habib
Freedom. Freedom. Money doesn't buy you happiness. It buys you flexibility, and it buys you freedom. And those things should make you happy if you use them, you know, to do the things you want to do. It's not about money. It's about doing the things you want to do when you want to do. I love being my own boss. That's the number one thing that attracts me to real estate and starting my own law firm and all of that. I don't answer to anybody. I outwork everybody, but I don't answer to anybody.
- [59:06]
Joe Jensen
I love it, man. I love it. All right, well, without any further ado, man, I'm gonna let you go. I really appreciate your time. We might need to have you back on. Hopefully, we'll do some business with you as well. Florida sounds like a great time. So anyway, thanks for your time. Thanks for being here.
- [59:22]
Bishoy Habib
Appreciate you, Joe.
- [59:24]
Joe Jensen
Absolutely. This is Joe Jensen signing off for the Real Estate Investment School podcast, Remembering and reminding you to be smart and do what's right.