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Real Estate Investing School Podcast
248. REAL DEAL: Land Development Financing Strategies
00:32:49
Welcome back to the Real Estate Investing School Podcast! In this episode, Real Deal host Brody Fausett interviews Bowman Loo about a unique land development deal where Bo shares how he helped a developer secure financing for a master plan community...
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- [00:00]
Jordan Fossett
This concept is one of like the hidden gems that nobody talks about of strategic real estate investing. What is up everybody? Welcome back to the Real Estate Investing School podcast. This is Jordan Fossett, your host of the Real Deal episode today that we have for you. If you guys are new joining us, this is a short, sweet, to the point kind of series where we go over one deal that an investor has done. Specifically we talk about how they found it, how they funded it and how they forced it. And as you know, that is the best way to get ahead is to learn from people who have done things that you are in the process of learning or trying to figure out. And it all goes to your tool belt in this real estate investing kind of tools that you have. And so excited for today. It's going to be a little bit different of a deal than probably most of you have heard of or have dove into or have done, which is why I'm excited to talk about it. But without further ado, Bo, welcome to the show.
- [01:06]
Bo Bowman
Dude, what's up? Thanks for having me, Brody.
- [01:10]
Jordan Fossett
This is the Bo show today. Well, dude, excited to jump into this one. You're, you're doing some cool stuff, especially in like the land development space. And it's just cool like to. I know that a few people have reached out to me that have been stuck on a few things having to do with, with land and developing and financing and whatnot. And you've been able to help them out quite a bit. But excited to jump into the deal that you're going to talk about today so people can learn from it. But really quick to start us off, give us a 30,000 foot overview. Just kind of recap this deal in, in layman's terms so that people can get an idea and then we'll dive into how you found it.
- [01:53]
Bo Bowman
Yeah, you bet. So this deal that I'm going to talk about today is the Tocquerville bypass road. So kind of over in Hurricane Valley in southern Utah. It's a big old lengthy road that's about seven miles long. And we got hit up with a developer, me and my business partner. And he was kind of freaking out because the city was telling him he had to put in multi million dollars worth of infrastructure I.e. roads, utilities, all that fun stuff. And he thought he had to come with that out of pocket to be able to break ground and get his permitting for his master plan community that he has out there. So we kind of dove in for him, did a little bit of digging just to see what we could do on terms of financing just to get a little creative. And we ran into PID financing which we are familiar with, which is just public infrastructure, district funding, private funding that's available to developers that allows them to use. It's a bond process that allows developers to essentially do a feasibility study on how big their project is going to be and then accrue, accruer, get a general idea of what property taxes will generate over a 10, 20, 30 year term to then pay back that bond. And so literally the developer had to do, I think he paid for the feasibility study, which was maybe 10, 20 grand as opposed to paying multi million dollars worth to go towards roads and infrastructure. So there's a really cool tool obviously, especially if you're doing the development will be around 2,000 acres in total. So you can imagine that type of master plan, you're going to have hotels, different types of densities, shopping centers, you name it will be kind of out there. So being able to do that for the developer was really cool. He's a good family friend of ours as well, so it was just awesome just to kind of help him out that way.
- [03:53]
Jordan Fossett
Awesome, yeah. Excited to dive into that because obviously that's pretty deep in a lot of terms that a lot of people probably haven't heard of before, which is going to be good just to know about in general. And you guys are listening. Some of you might be like, oh, I'm never going to do like this big 2000 acre unit or acre, multi unit, multi zoning project, but you'd be surprised. It's just once again, it's another tool to have in your tool belt and just being aware and specifically you're going to dive into like the financing on this one because as you guys know, it's, there's a reason we focus on how you found it, how you funded it and how you forced it and got creative because that's what it takes to put a deal together. Sometimes it leans heavy on how, how a deal was found and it was creative that it was significantly under, you know, market value. Everyone hears you make your money when you buy, not when you sell, right. So that's why you focus on how, how that's done. But then especially in this scenario, as we dive into the financing on it, it's, it's a deal breaker. A lot of times, especially in a deal like this, you're talking a difference of, you know, 10, 20 grand as opposed to multi million of dollars to get the ground up and going and off, off to the races. So kind of like touching on, on this piece just so people understand essentially the purpose of, of this developer buying a project like this, his long term play is, hey, I'm buying all this land. And part of me coming in and buying this, this raw land essentially is I'm taking on, you know, maybe the risk, maybe the, the quote unquote money side of things to get it all developed, infrastructure, everything in place. And then once it's to that point, there's a lot of different plays. He can sell pieces of the land and have somebody else develop it. He can, you know, he's done essentially like the legwork and maybe, I don't know, the, the purchase price or maybe there's an NDA on it. I don't know. Is that, is there, is that something that's open or public info, what he bought it for?
- [05:56]
Bo Bowman
So he ended up buying it kind of sporadically, right? So there was I think a total of 70 different parcels. And so certain parts of those parcels are under joint venture. Some of them he bought outright. But this was a process that this developer has been doing for five, eight plus years of just slowly buying chunks and chunks, the average raw land price. And granted, right, it's changing because from eight years ago to today it's changed substantially, especially with the road coming in. But I know when he started he was buying acre, acreage out there, close to like 20k breaker. And then obviously just as time's gone and more word has gone out that development will come out and people obviously want to sell for hire, but definitely smart thinking years down the road of how to build out a development and then it's crazy if you think about it because the guy's thinking, you know, till now, eight years past, and then really it won't be fully built out for maybe another 20 years, truthfully. So it's just really, really thinking very, very big, for sure.
- [07:08]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah, absolutely. That's cool. There's lots of different plays obviously as a developer or as a contractor and different things like that. But it's interesting because even though this is a different type of a deal than what most people are used to, it's all the same, dude. It's all the same. When you understand the, when you understand the logic of real estate investing and what's in it for you? What's in it for me? How to create a win win. How to leverage your cash the best way. How to leverage your skill set the best way. Your knowledge the best way. It's all the same. And so these, these fundamental principles are so Important, but just like, once again, taking a step back, looking at this deal, it's. There's something in it for everybody, right? And we're going to get into that a little bit here in a second. But just if people listening can understand the concept of there is a reason that you're buying it, and the reason is it's going to be worth more in the long run with what you do to it. We talk a lot about, like, sweat equity and being able to do things and see things through a different lens. A lot of people can't see, essentially, that's what's happening here mixed with like, forced financing and getting creative, but same exact thing on every single deal if you can just understand the basic principles, which is why we're going over this stuff. So with that being said, you kind of touched on how he found it, right? And how the project was found, which is a whole nother thing of probably getting creative. There's different pieces of joint venture in there, picking stuff up along the way. Like a lot of times, too. This is one way where we don't see value in a deal. But like, I have a few, few pieces of property that I own that are right next door to each other, right? Multiple parcels where each one that I get next door, it becomes more and more valuable and I'm willing to pay way more than anybody else for it. Even though somebody else might look at it, be like, oh, there's no way that it's worth this because I own the other ones near it. It becomes worth more, right? Because I can do stuff altogether that people can't do. So that's just like another concept to kind of understand and grasp. But let's, let's dive into the financing on this thing, dude, because this is where you're an expert and this is where you were really able to make a difference in this deal.
- [09:21]
Bo Bowman
Definitely. For sure. Yeah. So kind of understanding PID financing. And I do want to kind of share this in a way, right, Because I get it. A lot of the listeners are like, bro, I'm never going to develop hundreds of acres or at least not in the foreseeable future. These concepts that we kind of came across to find this financing is the same that I would advise any first fix and flipper to start with, and that is municipal due diligence. Understanding your general plan of the city you're going to do a deal in, whether it's, you know, county or city, understanding the proposed land use, which is the foreseeable plan. Usually it's about A five to eight year spread of how zoning could change and then understanding your ordinances and codes, what you can do, how you maximize, you know, your densities, what you need to do to be able to, you know, follow whether it's a parking or it's a setback issue or whatever have you. I think a lot I obviously being a real estate agent and a land consultant, so many developers and investors come to me and they, they just kind of. I wish they would do a little bit more time understanding their possibilities because I've had, it's terrible but I've had, you know, clients of mine that said bo, this guy hit me up. It was a crazy deal, I couldn't say no. So I sold it downtown St. George Boulevard and they're doing a ginormous master plan redevelopment down there that literally changed his property value overnight. And you just wasn't aware of it.
- [10:56]
Jordan Fossett
Yep.
- [10:57]
Bo Bowman
And so it's just being able to be in the know and understanding I think base one and investing is a really good foothold is just understanding. That's a simple due diligence.
- [11:05]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah.
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Bo Bowman
Oh, go ahead.
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Jordan Fossett
I just said it's so good. Give, give listeners like, like a step one of that if like dive into what you would do. I found this house, I'm interested in buying it. Maybe I'm the long term hold. Maybe it's a piece of land, maybe it's a house I want to flip, whatever. Like what's the first step to doing that municipal due diligence that you're talking about?
- [11:29]
Bo Bowman
Yeah, definitely. And one, it's also just great to ask whoever if you're self represented, awesome. But if you are using an agent, just throw that out there. Be like hey, are you, you know, familiar with the zoning? Are you familiar with possibilities of this land? But essentially first steps and you can go as as deep if you're going to do any sort of development. I would say start with a general plan of the city which is basically the five to eight year forecast of how the city will see growth economically and then from there diving in with your zoning specifically and proposed land use. That's kind of like the three check marks I would say is get a decent understanding of the general plan, understand the proposed land use. Either it's a policy or it can be an actually mapped out GFI map or just simply the zoning because you could be right next to a higher density zoning connected parcels and it's simply just going into the city and asking and saying hey my neighbors, this XYZ zoning. I would like More density, because I fit in your codes and ordinances and it's that simple.
- [12:36]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The chances of, if it, if it's adjoining right there, like, the chances of getting it zoned to that, a lot of people are like, oh, well, I can just take this residential house in the middle of a neighborhood and go get it, zone multifamily. It's like chances of that happening are very, very slim. But if it's right next to another property that's zoned that way, chances are a lot, a lot higher. So. Yeah. Such good stuff.
- [13:01]
Bo Bowman
Definitely. Yeah.
- [13:03]
Jordan Fossett
And the cool thing about knowing that is you can almost reverse engineer that. Right. And then that can be part of your strategy. And I've talked about it more and more just recently, but I think that, like, this concept is one of the, one of, like the hidden gems that nobody talks about of strategic real estate investing. And I've done it a handful of times now and gone in front of city council and, you know, pled your case and like, but it's cool, like, I haven't gotten anything denied yet of what I've been trying to do as far as rezoning and understanding the master plan too, because that's another one that's, it's a home run. They'll just punch your ticket right away if long term, this is what it's supposed to be turned into. Zoning wise. With the master plan, they almost can't say no because it's part of the bigger picture. And so that's another one where if you can understand that, you reverse engineer the process and maybe you look first at the map and seeing, okay, here's everything in the master plan of the zoning. Here's everything that's not yet zoned that way in the master plan. Can I look for properties or reach out to people that don't even have things for sale, you know, publicly and see if they want to sell because you understand that hidden value and that's.
- [14:17]
Bo Bowman
Part of forcing the deal, I think a huge golden nugget. And this is definitely what we do a lot in our line, consulting. But I think the viewers and listeners will, if you take it and run with it, you can make a killing. And it's simply understanding the people in your city or county, that is mayor, planning and zoning manager, or any of the councilmen on the city council, understanding which ones are pro growth and taking them to lunch, taking them to lunch and say, hey, I am an investor, but what does the city want to accomplish on terms of real estate growth? And just Being in the know, even if you're just as simple, you know, I won't call it simple because flipping can be very difficult. But even if you, you know, you're a day one real estate investor, doing something like that and being able to see the whole picture and just understanding how projects and permits get pushed through your minutes of pool, government can be huge for you, for sure. And so if you're not doing something like that, going to city council meetings every once in a while just to know what's happening in your area, I think, though, that can be a golden nugget for a lot of them.
- [15:37]
Jordan Fossett
100, dude. 100. Yeah, that's, that's so good. And I think what has surprised me over the years and will surprise a lot of people is how much information you can get from doing that and how much information you can get simply, even from calling and talking to the secretary, you know, like, oh, yeah, don't talk to this person, talk to this person. Or I'm working on a, on a bigger project right now and literally I called into the city office and they gave me the mayor's phone number. Like, you know, it's just going to be easier if you just call the mayor. And so we had a conversation on the phone. We've been texting back and forth. It's so, so foreign. But it's like even in the beginning stages of the project, hey, you guys open to something like this? And you're literally talking to the mayor, right? And maybe that's helpful, maybe it's not helpful, right, because they're not the sole one that makes the decisions. You have to understand that as well. And they might be against growth and development too. So. Yeah, good stuff, dude.
- [16:33]
Bo Bowman
Definitely. I think just.
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Jordan Fossett
Oh, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.
- [16:37]
Bo Bowman
No, yeah, I just going to kind of touch, touch again on just the importance of being in the know with what's going on because literally sometimes we've had meetings with, you know, mayors or zoning planning guys and stuff, and they're literally just give us a massive deal and say, hey, this guy owns a bunch of land, he doesn't know how to develop it. Hit him up. Super nice guy. And there's just immense opportunities that come from it.
- [17:06]
Jordan Fossett
So, yeah, I think too, like you, like, touched on another, like, hidden gem strategy that people aren't doing. But, like, there's a lot of landowners that they want to retain some sort of ownership in their land and they have it completely paid off, you know, hundreds of acres, but they don't know the first step and they don't want to dive into it. But you can approach someone like that and you have all this land that's worth, you know, sometimes millions of dollars. And they're like, yeah, if you do the, you do the project, you know, like I'll split the profits with you. 50, 50. Like that's happening more and more and more, especially in these towns where they don't want to give up all the control on it, but they've owned it for the longest time now and they want to do something with it. So Cool, cool strategy right there. Somebody could crush it if they like dove head first into only focusing on that strategy.
- [18:00]
Bo Bowman
Definitely.
- [18:03]
Jordan Fossett
Talk, talk about really quick. Just you talked about, you know, the PID or PID financing. Dive into, dive into that for just a quick second and how people could leverage that if they, if they were interested. And then I think you did something different with this above and beyond the normal PID financing. If I remember right, A little bit. Yeah, touch on those. Get those two things.
- [18:28]
Bo Bowman
You bet. Yeah. So PID financing, it's basically a bond. It falls along that style of financing. Basically if you're a developer or landowner and you want to start that process, you would have to meet with the city, whether it's through an LOI or you know, you just go through their process of what they want you to do and essentially to build it out. Usually it does involve either an attorney or a financial planner that specializes in PID financing. There's two big groups, I forget the other one, but we do use Piper Sandler a lot here in Utah. Awesome guys out there that they know what they're doing. They work really close in the lieutenant governor's cabinet or office or whatever. She's essentially the one that oversees bond financing. Not to get too in the weeds there, but essentially when you have a development, like I said, say for this scenario, it's 50 acres and you plan on having about 300 doors, whether it be high density, low density, a spread. You would then have those, the financial advisors, they have a third party group that will go do a feasibility study to understand how long it would take to pay back that bond. So say you have an $8 million nut, you need to crack on infrastructure for roads and utilities and maybe parks. They can go and put together a structure and underwrite a deal so that in 15 years, once this is built out, they'll be able to completely pay off that bond. And basically the way they pull that financing is off of each parcel owner or homeowners property taxes. So a Portion of their property taxes goes to paying off the bond every month. And then it's, you know, an amortization schedule of 15, 20, 30 years. So that's the basic just of, of a paid, structured deal. What we did out in Tocquerville was just a little bit more because it also fell under rural Utah, which allowed for us to get a little bit more aggressive with our terms. So I think we. Some of this stuff I can't share too much, but we'll just say because of that certain aspect, the terms were a lot more in favor of the developer. And so basically the developer just had to pay for the financial advisors fees and then the feasibility fee and then pretty much the rest of, you know, that nut of the multimillion dollar bill essentially to get in the roads and utilities was paid for. So it definitely was, was a huge deal and a unique structure that I don't know exactly how long PID financing has been available in Utah, but it hasn't been longer than three, three to five years for sure. So it's definitely a new term tool.
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Jordan Fossett
That's unreal. And is there, is there a project too small for PID financing?
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Bo Bowman
That's a very good question. And it usually depends on the city that you're in. You have to go through the city and you really kind of, I guess, brainstorm or talk with the city planner to see usually the cities are the governing factor. They don't have any skin in the game in terms of the bond. It's all held in private financing. But they do have the say so because they have to sign off on it because it is technically government bound, if that makes sense. So different cities will have different structures of how they want their PIDs and usually from. And obviously this is still new and I'm not 100% sure. But a lot of the cities that we've dealt with, for instance, like Hurricane City, once they have two to three to four PIDs out, they don't like to do anymore. So there's kind of strategic areas if they're massive PIDs where, you know, a city like Hurricane, which is, has immense opportunity for growth, that's kind of their format. But different cities can go through different processes of what they feel is, is best for, you know, the community and for the, the people who live in that town.
- [22:49]
Jordan Fossett
Right? Yeah. So cool, man. So cool. That's another piece that people don't understand is you can to a certain degree, like negotiate with the cities and sometimes it's in form of a bond. So that's in form of, hey, we want you guys to do this type of like what I'm going through right now is they want me to widen the road, but it's like supposed to be a five lane road that is probably going to be like 20, 30 years before it's ever used to that extent, you know. And so I'm like, dude, it's a 200 foot frontage that, you know, they want you to pave and put curb and gutter and it's like it adds to the project. And so yeah, we're in the process of like negotiating. Hey, instead of doing this, you and I both know that this is like realistically going to be forever before this ever happens, if it even does. So instead let's like, maybe I can give you some money for a bond that goes towards this in the future and it saves me money. It's, you know, whatever, whatever. So different things that you can kind of go back and forth with, which a lot of times people don't understand.
- [23:55]
Bo Bowman
Yeah.
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Jordan Fossett
Which is another thing to be aware of too. Like that can cost you another project. It was a hundred thousand dollars was, was the extra expenses because I just needed to extend the. The water line. It ended the sewer and the water line ended on my property. And so I had a bu. Part of their code is you have to bump it up to the end of your property for the next person. So I went into this thinking like, oh, this is awesome. It's stubbed in my property. It's going to be easy to connect. Didn't realize is you have to then move it up for the next person and that all. All adds up. At times you can negotiate them to split the cost and sometimes you, you can't. It just is what it is.
- [24:32]
Bo Bowman
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's kind of, I think in the long play. And I get it, not all investors maybe need to do this. But truthfully, if you're dealing with cities and you understand their codes and ordinances, their proposed land use and have an idea of their general plan, that's literally their playbook. So anytime you go to city council and you have to propose anything, you have to do anything. If you follow their guidelines and it's a little bit of a political play. Right. You can't be like, hey, you guys are going to do this because it says you will sign it, like that won't fly. But if you're like, hey, I'm a developer, I want to help grow the city, I understand there's a need for XYZ Housing in this area. This is my proposed plan. It fits under your city ordinances. We just want to put together a project that the city can be proud of and it can add value to, you know, the citizens in the area. If you take that approach and really, you make, you know, the councilmen and mayors somewhat like you like any good business deal, right? It's, it's. You're literally, if, if you're a sports guy, you're. You're playing with their playbook, truthfully.
- [25:40]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah. Yeah. So good, dude. Yeah, so good. And in a lot of ways, too, they, they like, can't say no. You know, they're bound by certain things as well. I remember being in a, in a city meeting and, you know, it ended up passing like four out of the five votes, which is enough to, enough to make it pass. But at one point, because there were so many people that, that showed up, at one point, the city attorney was just like, hey, just so you guys know, like, we can't say no to this for no reason at all. Like, everything is exactly by the book. It's exactly, it's in the code. It's exactly what we have proposed for this area. You can't say no just to say no, or else we're open to a lawsuit. And he's talking to the councilman as he's saying that, you know, so just super interesting. If you can learn to learn to play by the rules and like you said, the playbook, I think that's genius, dude. Well, we're bumping up on time, but anything else? And we talked a lot about different ways to force these deals, actually like a handful of just gold nuggets that people can take, even if they're not even in the land development space. But anything else you would say, like you did to force this deal or if somebody wanted to go and replicate something similar. Any advice you'd have?
- [26:58]
Bo Bowman
Yeah, for sure. And one thing to kind of piggyback on that last comment, just dealing with the city real quick a lot of times too, it's just going the extra mile, right? So if you already know, you have a project that is in an iffy area that, you know a lot of the, the nearby residents are going to be a little bit frustrated with. You can work with the city before your public hearing and me and my business partner will literally go knock doors, knock doors. We're saying, hey, you know, we represent the developer or the other developer of this project, you know, and we're helping, we're working within the city bounds. Do you have any questions about it? What concerns do you have? Is it a height issue? Is it a sound issue? Is it a light issue? What issues can we help to make sure you're being heard as a resident in the area so it doesn't have to become this crazy big fight at city council? Because nobody likes that.
- [27:55]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah, a hundred percent.
- [27:56]
Bo Bowman
We've had huge developments and projects where you would assume there would be 50 people in the tiny city council room saying, heck no, this won't go kind of a thing. And there's nobody. And nobody stands up. And it's because you're just. People want to be heard at the end of the day. Right. Sales 101, being able to communicate. So I would just say there's usually always a way in a development deal to go the extra mile. And whether it's finding a mentor or somebody in the space that has done it, figure it out. Because reinventing the will is always harder and can cost you time and money in the long run.
- [28:36]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Because that's such a gold nugget and I think sometimes we, we look at like city council and these people is almost untouchable.
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Bo Bowman
Right?
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Jordan Fossett
Like, I can't bug them, not going to bother them. I'll just bring it up to city council. But they, they want to meet, they want to go to lunch. They want to understand what you're trying to do before you bring it up. And a lot of times, you know, if you can get them on your side, which a lot of times you can, it's. It goes a long way. So such such a good gold nugget. There anything else to add to this one before we wrap it up?
- [29:13]
Bo Bowman
I would just say literally any deal you even think about doing, at least check the. The zoning. In any deal, at least check the zoning. Make sure, you know, you're getting the best. Either you're buying, you know, at a deal and there's, you know, instant value to be added for potential zoning on densities or what have you. Just, just. I've had so many investors hit me up with horror stories where they lost a whole bunch of money because they sold because they thought it was a deal and it just wasn't. They just weren't in the know. So just making sure to take that extra time, you know, get connected with the cities. It definitely will pay dividends in the long run.
- [29:53]
Jordan Fossett
Yeah, so good, dude. And it's even a good reminder for existing properties that you might have right now, go back and look at the Zoning because one, it might have change, changed for the better. Right? And, or something around you might have changed or go look at the, the master plan of the city that that property's in. But that could even, even from the standpoint of most, even residential communities, they allow for an adu, you know, as long as it's under. Depends on the city, but as long as it's usually under a thousand square feet, like you can add an ADU to your property, you know, assuming it fits the requirements. So nowadays, especially with all these prefab companies, you know, you can literally like in a, in a couple of weeks, a couple of months, you know, have, you're, you're renting out on Airbnb, this backyard little space and, and making a couple thousand bucks a month, you know, definitely.
- [30:47]
Bo Bowman
And, and that's not to get too deep, right. On the whole city side, but when you spoke about ADUs, literally there's a city in Washington county that just barely passed an ADU ordinance that no longer requires two parking places for the adu, but one. And so even this simple stuff about knowing like parking is now, hey, my XYZ property that I have now fit so I can throw in, you know, a tiny home or something like that as an ADU and in this existing property. And now I'm cash flowing another thousand dollars a month.
- [31:18]
Jordan Fossett
Yes. Yeah, 100, dude. And even with ground up construction too, you know, maybe you're building a house or like knowing those things, you're going to strategically, you know, build it the way that you want it to maximize in potential revenue. So such good stuff, dude. Such good stuff. Well, both people want to connect with you or reach out to you on any bodybuilding questions, slash land questions they might have. What's the best place to do that?
- [31:50]
Bo Bowman
Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me Bowman Lou. Also Instagram at Ikaika. I K a, I K a Underscore Real estate. Hit me up on those if you know, Brody's got my number. Email as well. So love to help if you have even have simple questions about land development or trying to understand ordinances or what, whatever. I'd love to help out and get your project going.
- [32:14]
Jordan Fossett
Super rad, dude. If you throw out LinkedIn first, that's how you know you're a legit businessman.
- [32:21]
Bo Bowman
I just barely started it a week ago though, so.
- [32:25]
Jordan Fossett
Okay, that makes me feel better. Well, dude, much love, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for dropping some, some gold nuggets. I know it's going to help a ton of people, you guys that are listening. If you got value out of this, go leave us a review for this podcast. We can reach more people. Share it with your friends, family and we will catch you you guys on the next one. Much love.