A (3:33)

So I love that, man, that. That's exciting. It's. It's interesting because I feel like I see that a lot in life, you know, especially the. The previous generation. A lot of them were just, like, doing what needed to be done.

B (3:45)

Yeah.

A (3:45)

And then it's given a lot of people now the opportunity to kind of, like, say, step beyond that, think outside the box. Because we have those. Those basic things covered for a lot of people. That's not everybody's story, but I feel like I've seen that a lot. And, man, if we could. If anybody could find a way to tap into whatever spark the Rich Dad.

B (4:06)

I know.

A (4:08)

I mean, that book, it's incredible how many lives it's took touched on such a large way.

B (4:15)

Yeah. I mean, Harvard Business School, like, is a complete 180 from entrepreneurship and real estate investing and that kind of thing. So it literally flipped the switch for me.

A (4:24)

Yeah. That's crazy. That's cool. So. So you. You started getting the taste for it. You saw the vision of, like, oh, what this could be, and then how long from that point until you actually were able to pull your. Pull the trigger on your first deal, Then let's Dive into what your first. First. Your very first real estate deal look like.

B (4:43)

Sure. So one thing that he harps in that book is like getting educated. Right? So that was what I knew I. I needed to do next was. Was to get educated. And so while I was going to college, I got involved with. With a group that, that had some real estate education. It was real estate education company called Renatus. It's like an MLM type of thing. But anyways, really good education and a really good community aspect. And so I got heavily involved with them and just started learning the ins and out, like how to run comps, how to, you know, what a CMA is, what ARV is, all these different things in that point of life. Like we. We wanted massive income because we're broke college kids. Right. So, you know, I thought I wanted to do flips and that's what I did first. I. My first deal, to answer your question, was a flip in Salt Lake City and it was a meth house. And it was fun. We. We bought the thing. I can't remember the exact numbers, but we bought it for like $77,000 and then we turned around and sold it for 150 on a cash offer, full price.

A (5:52)

So no way. What year was this?

B (5:54)

Let's see. It was. My kid wasn't born yet, so it was like 2015. 20. Like 2014. 2015. So about six, seven years ago. But yeah, 82 days from closing on the buy side to closing on the sell side. And it was awesome.

A (6:12)

Yeah, that's great. That's a good profit margin on it as well. Because people think like, oh, flips, I'm gonna make 50 to 100 grand to flip. And a lot of times it's not like that. I have a lot of friends that do flipping and sometimes the margins are a lot tighter. That's awesome for your first flip.

B (6:31)

Yeah. And I had, I mean, full disclosure, I. I did it with a partner, so I think my take home on that was like 15 somewhere. I honestly can't remember, but it was somewhere in like the $15,000 range. But yeah, great first property. It was awesome.

A (6:44)

Yeah. No, that's cool. How did you guys work around the meth stuff? Because I always hear that as like a big issue. Like, oh, if it's a meth house and they have to tear the whole thing down, you know what I mean? Like what tenants you get in there. So how do you. Yeah, so it was remediate math.

B (7:01)

Yeah, good question. So this is going back to my memory archive because it's been a while. But the thing. So it was an reo, which means it was a bank owned property. Right. And they had claimed that the remediation had already been done. So during our due diligence, during our due diligence, we're like, well, we might as well do a test anyway. Uh, and we did a test and it came back positive, which actually was to our benefit because then we were able to, we were able to kind of leverage that in negotiations to get a lower purchase price. So the bank actually paid for the, the whole remediation. And what they have to do is like fog all of the H VAC systems. They like have to spray all this walls, all the walls with like a chemical so it, it leaves some damage that you then have to remediate. But luckily we kind of had to do a full fledged flip anyway. So it was really just not a big deal. Cause we were planning on doing most of those repairs anyway. But when it's a meth house, like it gets, it gets tagged to the health department. So then you have to, you know, luckily it's all part, you know, all we had to do is hire a guy who does the remediation. He took care of the remediation. He also took care of all the paperwork with the health department. It was just a dollar amount and that was paid by the seller. So it really wasn't that big a deal.

A (8:17)

I love that concept. I think that's so true of so many parts of the game of real estate. It's like you hear something, it's like, oh, I bet that's this huge headache. It's like, well, you just hire someone that knows what they're doing.

B (8:29)

Yeah.

A (8:30)

Like I always think that when. And I hear on all these podcasts people like talking about, oh, real estate's such a headache. You got to answer these phone calls middle of the night or do this or that. And I just don't want to deal with that. It's like, well, if you don't want to do that, just hire a property manager.

B (8:44)

Exactly.

A (8:44)

It's that simple. You know what I mean?

B (8:46)

For sure. Like, for sure.

A (8:47)

Even the crazy stuff like foundation stuff, like people get really spooked with foundation stuff. Like there's foundation companies that come in and they lift the home and they repair the foundation. They put it back like this. There's a system for everything you can imagine out there. There's a company that has dialed that into a T that if you can work that into your numbers.

B (9:08)

Exactly.

A (9:08)

Pay the professional to do it. Right. And you're good.

B (9:11)

Yeah. And you nailed it on the head. As long as. As long as you account for it in your analysis and in your numbers, like, it's good. You know what I mean? Like, it's taken care of and somebody else comes to do the work is. I think the risk or the thing that people worry about is, is when they don't account for those costs. Right. So, yeah.

A (9:30)

And that's the key thing. Right. It's not being surprised by it. And that's the power of doing good due diligence and looking into it. Because, yeah, anything can be sorted out if you know about it, you know, but if it's. When you get blindsided by a big one, that it's. It can be.

B (9:46)

Yeah.

A (9:47)

Surprising.

B (9:48)

For sure. For sure.

A (9:49)

I do. I always recommend, though, that people have, like, a 10% extra slush fund of whatever their purchase price was for some crazy, unforeseen things. Last thing you do is want to buy something, then you just totally screw because you didn't know that there's going to be something. I feel like there's often something.

B (10:07)

Yeah, always. Always.

A (10:08)

Like there's something like that. So it's good to be prepared for that, even if you're hoping it doesn't happen. Be prepared for the unknown. But, yeah, the more you can know and just figure it out and run those numbers and. And I think that can actually be a big strategy people can use is what is the thing that scares everybody else off.

B (10:26)

Sure.

A (10:27)

And then run towards that. You know, if there's. They're scared of foundation issues, go study that up. Get familiar with the foundation guy in the area, like, pick his brain, get good quotes, like. And then go tackle those ones that everybody's scared of.

B (10:40)

Yeah, for sure. Then you become. That's your competitive advantage. Yeah, for sure.

A (10:44)

Exactly. You know, because obviously it's very competitive. And the more of these freaking podcasts, books, and schools that come out teaching everybody how to do it, the more competitive it's going to get.

B (10:54)

Everyone's a good.

A (10:55)

Yeah, right, exactly. But I mean, really, though, it's just. It's such a. It's on the radar. There's so many resources now that people are getting more and more and more and more involved real estate, and it is just going to make it more and more competitive. I mean, even have the big hedge funds, like Blackstone stuff, coming in to spend billions on. On residential rental properties, which they never used to do. So it's like, it's. It's kind of crazy how competitive it's getting. So the more ways you can find to avoid the crowds, I think is a good way to get started.

B (11:26)

Yeah, no, for sure. I agree, I agree.

A (11:30)

But that's cool, man.

B (11:31)

So you.

A (11:31)

You did this flip. You had a partner. Was the partner more experienced in it or how did you structure that partnership or why did you have a partner?

B (11:40)

Honestly, it was probably just more for comfort. You know, it's first deal is. No, this was their first deal as well. She had a little bit more of a relationship with like the agent and like the finding. And then I brought. I brought a private money lender. That's how we acquired the deal.

A (11:58)

Oh, cool.

B (11:58)

So it worked out that way. She kind of found the connections to find the deal, and then I was able to fund it and we just split profits.

A (12:06)

Yeah. It's funny, I feel like I hear that a lot. I know. That was a big thing for me too. When I first started going in, I just kind of like, just went with a buddy, you know, the partnership made no sense. Like you normally with partnerships, you want like someone to have a strength that you don't have. You know, they bring the money and you do the work or vice versa or whatever. And we just both went 50, 50. And you know, I. And. And anyways, it was kind of a pointless partnership except for it. It made you feel comfortable enough to act.

B (12:33)

Yeah.

A (12:33)

Which, which, which my exact same experience with. With one of my first deals when I started to like, go hard was just. It felt good.

B (12:41)

I mean, if that's what, if that's what it takes to. If that's what it takes to actually get you into a deal, like, who cares? You know, you don't. You don't have to have the whole pie on the first one, but you get comfortable with it. You get the cadence of a deal. You understand what closing happens, and you know, that's. That's more of a win than the profit you could have had if you didn't have the partnership for sure.

A (13:01)

Hundred percent, especially if it gets you on that trajectory and builds that momentum. So that's cool. Did you stick with flipping? For a little while, then into a couple more. So how'd that go?

B (13:12)

So no, I did one more flip after that. I'll just kind of give you the rundown of all my deals. So I did one more flip after that. Then we acquired two rental properties in the Midwest. Then after that I was a private money lender on two deals and then flipped a lot and then rolled that money into two more deals. So that's kind of like my whole real estate career. Two more rentals, rather.

A (13:33)

Okay. Yeah, that's awesome. That's cool. I like how you use the flip money to fund the long holds, which is something a lot of people want to do, but they kind of get addicted to the money. They just keep flipping and flipping and forget to ever hold anything. And they're like, oh, I have no portfolio. Right, but so you built up a little bit of a portfolio. Let's talk about the first long holds you did and how, how you did that. Are these the ones that you did? The burr kind of strategy and use other people's money?

B (14:05)

So, yeah, my first two rentals I bought at the same time. It was kind of like a package deal through that community that I had mentioned before. Just developed and networked some relationships and they had, you know, some people that I met and that I got to know. They had an operation going on in Illinois. They were flipping houses and then they were also providing opportunities to, to get, to sell to people to have buy and hold situations, which is how I got involved. So they had, they had rehabbed these properties and then I bought from them and then they, they also had connections to a property manager. So it's in, it's in a little town in Illinois, Danville, Illinois. Never been there, never seen the properties. But we bought them. Oh man, I should have had these numbers ready. But we bought them somewhere around the 48, $50,000 range. And they rent, they're paid off now, but they rent about 701, 650 and one's about 720 in rents. So that's cool.

A (15:07)

Yeah, I've actually been to Danville back in my sales career. I've been to a lot of small cities in Illinois.

B (15:13)

So you know Danville better than me, I guess.

A (15:16)

So when you told me you bought in Danville, I'm like, no way. How in the world did you find Danville, Illinois? But you know, it's funny because he's. These little small town cash flow properties, you know, people kind of poo poo on them a lot because you know you're not gonna make a million dollars, you're gonna have some headaches stuff, but they're real and they work like they're there, you know what I mean? And it's, it's, it's funny. That's cool that you're able to kind of tap into it and experience that. How did, no, how did you structure it though? Because I feel like when you talked about before you, you ended up not really having a ton of money committed to the program. How'd that work?

B (15:53)

I actually had zero money in this deal. So, you know, when you talk about rates of return, it literally was an infinite rate of return on these first two rental properties. So I. I got a private money lender, and he acted as a down payment. And then I mortgaged the other half, so it was 50% down. And then 50%, I use my credit to mortgage the other half of the acquisition. And that private money lender, I was able to structure it where I paid him interest only for five years. It was at 8%, and then it ballooned for the full amount after that five years. So I acquired these two properties with no money out of my pocket. I thought, you know, I never took any of the cash flow out. I just kind of dumped it into paying off the mortgage first. You know, the mortgage, not the private money lender. Because I was just paying the private money lender interest. Right. And I just paid the minimum. Paid the minimum to him as much as I could. But by paying down the mortgage, then I knew, worst case scenario, I could then refinance this private money lender out and just have the new mortgage in place. So that's what I was.

A (17:03)

The cash flow enough to cover the mortgage and cover your private money payment.

B (17:09)

Yep. Plus a little more. Yeah.

A (17:11)

Cool. So you were still cash flowing. Even after covering all of your costs, including the private money payment, you're still cash flowing. And then you took the extra cash flow and poured it into the Prince mortgage just to make sure that you had enough equity come five years in when that balloon payment comes, that you're able to refinance and get them covered with everything.

B (17:35)

Yep.

A (17:35)

That they needed to be covered with.

B (17:36)

Yep, Exactly.

A (17:38)

That's so cool. Like that concept. I mean, it sounds so simple and it really is. I mean, you never saw these properties. You weren't flying out to Danville. You didn't know the market, but you had network with some people that had stuff there. And then you were just like, oh, can I buy those? And oh, hey, you. I know you. You have money. You need to make a return. Like, yep, I'll get you a return. What kind of return were you giving them?

B (18:02)

8% was what the. What the terms were.

A (18:05)

And back in the day, that was. That was pretty good.

B (18:08)

Yeah. I mean, yeah, he didn't have that money anywhere else. So, you know, even if he could have put it in like a stock market or something, it. I mean, he's secured on title. So to him, it Was a real estate backed?

A (18:21)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, that's, that's cool. And you know, I, I just say nowadays 8% is like the banks.

B (18:27)

Yeah, exactly.

A (18:28)

But, but private money, you know, back then, you know, interest rates were probably like 4%. So they was making double.

B (18:34)

Sure.

A (18:35)

What, you know, he would if it was a bank or whatever, but more than he was doing in the stock market for sure. And so I love that about real estate. It's just such a win, win, win, win. Because you, you solved the problem for the house flippers. The guys who went out there and rehabbed it, they're just flipping houses. They just needed someone to buy it and so they're like, oh, we'll sell it to these investors. And so you, you solved their problem. And then the private money lender, you solved his problem by giving him somewhere to put his money that he can make a return on. He clearly solved your problem by giving you the money you needed. And you guys found affordable housing for somebody, put them in a nice home that before was a piece of trash that was unlivable. It's just like every single person is getting their problem solved along the way. And it's like, that's so cool.

B (19:21)

I love it. I do too. That's what makes real estate so great, is the value you give to so many people. Right?

A (19:29)

Yeah. That's cool. So you decided you didn't just do that like a thousand more times for some reason.

B (19:35)

I should have. I didn't though. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

A (19:39)

And so you did that a couple times and then to kind of build up more capital on your own, you. You did a couple more flips.

B (19:46)

So. No, So I only did the two flips and then we bought the two rentals. And this is all those first four transactions were all while I was going to college, figuring out what I wanted to do with my life. That's so cool. Then at that point, I was starting to graduate, my first son was born, and. And we actually decided to move back home. So we're from, we're both from St. George, actually. Santa Clara is where we grew up. I know you're familiar with, with the area. That's why I let you know.

A (20:16)

Heck yeah. That's where I'm living.

B (20:17)

Yeah, exactly. It's the best. So, yeah, believe it or not, my, my wife is like, her family is like one of the first six settlers of Santa Clara anyways, so. Deep roots. Yeah, deep roots.

A (20:30)

Yeah.

B (20:30)

But we just.

A (20:32)

Did she go down the, the main street for Swiss days on a parade boat?

B (20:36)

No. There we go. She. That's definitely a yearly event.

A (20:41)

Yeah.

B (20:42)

So. But sorry I got sidetracked. The. So yeah, we were trying to make life decisions. We decided to move back home so we could, you know, raise our kid, be close to family. And I, I went on with my father. So we. Right now I'm on the. I'm a home builder. We build custom homes, both him, my, My brother and I. And so we were kind of trying to make that work out, getting settled there. Like we wanted to buy our own home, build our own home. So that kind of like derailed me for a minute. Just life, you know what I mean? Yep. But then once we finally got settled, we got into our own place. Like it was like, okay, time to. Time to get back on this real estate thing and got back with my contacts who were still flipping homes up in Salt Lake and they needed money. So because I'm a builder and I built my own house and I literally like framed walls just to save money. Like, I walked into a pretty good amount of equity and I got a home equity line of credit. And so I actually just took my home equity line of credit money and then lent it to these guys and they gave me a rate of return because I was still trying to figure out what transactions I wanted to do. But at least I was making money as I was trying to figure that out. Right. So I was earning 12% on that money while only paying like 3 or 4% at the time, you know, making that arbitrage. And I did that twice. And then, and then after that, you know, once again, because of my profession, like, I found a deal on a lot in a subdivision that we're building in. I bought it for 100 grand and two months later sold it for 150 to, to a client that we're building for. And then I, and then took that profit. And that's when I just bought those. Those last two rentals in Danville. So I have four rentals in Danville, but those last two rentals I bought about a year ago.

A (22:33)

And you, you self funded the. The second.

B (22:35)

So I use the money from the flip to. As the down payment and then. And then got a mortgage for the rest of it. Yeah.

A (22:42)

As opposed to the private money down.

B (22:44)

Yeah.

A (22:44)

You have to pay that back.

B (22:46)

Yeah, I just use my own money this time.

A (22:49)

That's cool. That land flip, man, that sounds like a six figure profit on that land flip. How did you fund the purchase of the land? Because obviously you're able to sell it for a lot more than you got it for. It still wasn't cheap to buy.

B (23:02)

No. So yeah, home equity line of credit. I just used my home equity line of credit, paid that lot for 100 grand in cash and then sold it for 150. So 50 grand profit, I mean gross profit. I mean obviously closing fees and different things like that. It wasn't 50, but yeah, yeah, that's how we did it.

A (23:20)

And what a perfect use of HELOC money. Because people always ask about like, oh, should I get like a heloc? And I'm always like, yeah, absolutely. Like everybody should go get a HELOC on their primary residence. If you use the right lender, it's free. Like you don't have to pay a penny to get it started. And if you never use it, you never pay anything.

B (23:39)

Right.

A (23:39)

Because you only pay interest on what you've you're taking out and using. And so it's cool. Like everybody should have it. But it is a short term thing. It's a fluctuating rate. It can go up, it can go down. You know, you got to pay it back. And, and it's not something you want to just tie up as a down payment on a 30 year mortgage using your HELOC.

B (23:57)

Right.

A (23:58)

But, but that's what you did is a perfect situation for it is, you know, a little short term flip of some land or a home or even, you know, if you wanted to use it like you said for doing some sort of birthing where hey, like instead of the private money, you could use a heloc. Knowing that, okay, I'm going to have this tied up for a few years and things might fluctuate, but I'm going to refinance out, pay off my HELOC when, when that property I buy instead of the private lender could be your own heloc, you know, so any way you can recycle that money is good use of a heloc.

B (24:34)

No, I agree.

A (24:35)

Otherwise that it's just sitting there.

B (24:36)

No, I agree. I really think that, I know it's just a personal opinion. I really think a HELOC is one of the most underutilized tools for building wealth. For sure. Like.

A (24:46)

Yeah. And it's funny because you see how they're advertised.

B (24:48)

I know, yeah. Remodel your home. Yeah, yeah.

A (24:52)

It's like, pull out a heloc, get that new kitchen. I'm like, that is not a good use of your heloc.

B (24:59)

Yeah, that's, that's kind of my personal rule. Like the only, the only money that comes out of that. HELOC is for assets it can't buy any kind of liabilities. So that's just my personal rule with them.

A (25:13)

Yeah, it should be buying an asset and should be like said, recyclable, where you can pay it back relatively soon. Just so you don't get stuck in some crazy environment like this. You know, you're thinking you're at a 2 or 3% interest rate forever and then it eventually climbs up. I mean, HELOCs are now at like 6, 7 for sure. Percent for sure. That can really throw your numbers off. But if you, if you have the short term mindset, knowing that, okay, this is not a long term debt and you're able to pay it back, then you're fine.

B (25:41)

I agree, I agree.

A (25:43)

That's super cool. I love that. How you tapped into that and utilize it in multiple different ways. And what kind of gave you the confidence or the mindset to just do all these different things? Like, oh yeah, so I just funded some flips and I just bought these houses out of state and I just bought this raw land. Like a lot of people, they hear that and they're like, oh my gosh, like, I could never pull the trigger on that unless I'd been studying it for 45 years, had a mentor that held my hand through every step. Like, what gave you the confidence and the ability to do those successfully?

B (26:18)

I really don't know. I'm a firm believer that risk isn't in the investment, it's in the investor. And so the way you minimize your risk. Right. Is just education. And, and that's what I've been doing for a long time. Like, you know, kind of like what you read in my bio. Like I've, I really have, I've, I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on, on real estate education and mentorships. Like real estate investing school, like a perfect example. Right. You invest some money up front, but, but the return that you can get on your knowledge and your confidence because of people like yourself, Joe, who, you know, are able to talk me through certain situations. And it's just, it's getting educated and then it's, it's just constantly being on top of your mindset to have confidence in yourself to want to pull the trigger.

A (27:07)

Yeah, I think that's so cool. It's like the, the ability to believe that you can figure it out, you know, learn enough and then, and then just bet on yourself.

B (27:16)

Sure.

A (27:16)

That's kind of like, I feel like I keep hearing that reoccurring theme in my life lately with, from people I talk to and whatnot. It's like, learn enough. You don't want to go in totally blindly. A lot of times you hear in the real estate world's like, yeah, you just gotta do it. Like, just do it.

B (27:30)

It's like, yeah, yeah, to an extent.

A (27:33)

Like, like learn something. There's a few basics that could definitely.

B (27:37)

Help mitigate some risk there for sure.

A (27:39)

You know what I mean? So learn enough. And, and then, and then bet on yourself. And then that's a continual thing because there's so many different ways. Okay, now I'm going to learn enough about multifamily. I'm going to learn enough about, about, you know, land flipping. I'll learn, I'll learn enough. And then I'm gonna bet on myself.

B (27:54)

Yeah, and I like what, I like what you're saying there. Betting on yourself. Because I do think that that was a big part of my mindset. Like, especially for those first two deals. It's like, what's the worst thing that could happen? And I really think, like I'm in college and I have no income essentially, you know what I mean? So I know for sure I'm gonna be making more than I am now. So like, worst case scenarios, I just have to work my way to pay off these mortgages, you know what I mean? But it's true. It was just, it was a bet on myself to know that I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to, I know that I'm going to be able to work my way out of a bad situation if something bad happens.

A (28:30)

Yeah. And it's funny because I think the fact that you were in college, you weren't super established and had a ton of bills and kids and responsibilities and all this stuff, like it makes it easier to just be like, well, I'm just going to go for it, right? And whatever happens, happens. I'll figure it out. Because there's not a lot of like a responsibility. If it goes south, it doesn't hurt that many people. And, and I just kind of encourage anybody listening that's in that situation. Like, so sometimes like, oh, well, I'm not ready. Maybe I'll start investing when I'm done with college or when I'm married or when I'm more established. It's like, dude, no go now. Because there's, it's just, it's just easier to, to just go for it. And if it, if anything does go south, it's easier to pull yourself out than like pull out, you know, you and your wife and your kids and the mortgage, like all these other, you know, heavy lift.

B (29:19)

Yeah, there's definitely a little bit more on the table now than back then, for sure.

A (29:23)

That's sweet, man. So. So that's cool. I love the concept of, I mean, you've kind of done so many different, different pieces. So out of the things you have been doing, where's your kind of mindset now? What do you feel like you're kind of leaning towards? Out of, you know, all the different things you've dabbled in, is there one clear thing you're kind of wanting to jump into or is it still kind of the experimental phase until you figure out what you want to go hard with?

B (29:52)

No, I'm definitely focused in and dialed in on buy and hold situations. Cash flow, you know, I'm a cash flow investor, you know, as opposed to an appreciation investor looking to replace my income so that I can, you know, have the financial freedom, that kind of thing. So, yeah, for sure, like buy and hold type of situation. My wife keeps telling me, like, why don't we do flips again? Like, it was so cool to get that big money. I was like, yeah, but it's a one time hit, you know what I mean? It's like it's a one time dopamine and then you got to go do it again. And I'm looking for something that's lasting, that's reoccurring, and that's a sure thing.

A (30:27)

It's always so tempting. Like, so I just bought some raw land in Texas and I'm actually closing right now. It's still going through title work or whatever. And it's funny because I bought it pretty cheap and I was able to. I posted it on Facebook. I'm trying to just rent out the land like a, like a mobile home, but just the. Just the dirt. And I've already got like a bunch of people interested and I haven't even finished closing, but I have it on Facebook, Marketplace and. And I could have already signed up someone for like a rent to own.

B (30:59)

Like a lease option down.

A (31:01)

Like a lease option. Yeah, exactly. Where people are interested in. I'm having a hard time finding someone just wants to rent. Yeah, that's kind of like everybody wants to rent to own.

B (31:09)

That's interesting.

A (31:10)

But. But I could have already got someone to pay me a down payment for more than I bought the whole thing for sure. And then continue to make monthly payments for the next few years. Yeah, and it's like, it's so tempting because you're like, I get all my money back and then I make just extra money. I don't have to do anything. I haven't even closed on the thing yet, you know, but at the same time I'm like, yeah, but then I don't own an asset. I don't own anything. Like I. That doesn't grow my portfolio, that just puts some money in my pocket. And my whole thing is I want to grow my portfolio, I want to own it long term. But it's definitely tempting to just make all your money back and go to the next thing, you know.

B (31:51)

Sorry, let me, let me push you on that a little bit. So it's a lease to own. Right. So you would still have the deed, you would still own the asset. Right.

A (31:59)

Until they paid it off.

B (32:00)

And then I wouldn't.

A (32:01)

Okay, right. So then it ends, it dies out. You know, it's kind of like buying notes where it's like, you know, my dad bought a bunch of notes back in the day and it was awesome. He's getting like 17 20% returns and.

B (32:13)

Then it went away.

A (32:13)

And it's just, he doesn't have to do anything. You know what I mean? Like, he doesn't even pay the taxes on it. He just owns the note. He's the bank, you know, and it was so cool for 10 years, 15 years, and now they're all drying up and he's like, oh crap, I've got to replace all that cash flow, like, and then just. Yeah, you know, I don't like the idea of it being able to. Yeah, exactly. You want it to not just last forever, but keep growing and be worth more and more and more as opposed to less and less and less.

B (32:44)

For sure.

A (32:45)

You know, I. He bought a timeshare back in, in Hawaii like forever ago, and it was less like a leasehold thing where the, the whole, a whole, the whole timeshare company had a leasehold. In Hawaii, it's different that you don't always buy property. You can. There's a thing called fee simple. You buy it and that's like normal what we're used to.

B (33:06)

Yeah.

A (33:06)

But in some things, people get like a 90 year lease on land.

B (33:10)

Oh, wow.

A (33:10)

And they'll go build apartment complexes and homes or. And they have like a 90 year lease. And so at the time you're like, I'll be dead.

B (33:18)

Yeah.

A (33:18)

But then your kid inherits that and he. Now they have a 50 year lease. And eventually like so that whole apartment complex, this condo unit that he owns, this Timeshare in. It's like coming up due in like three or four years. Like the 90 year lease is over and they're like, what's gonna happen? Like, no one really knows. You're gonna have to like try to renegotiate this, this huge lease. And it's like, it's funny because at the time things can seem like, oh, that's never gonna.

B (33:46)

Yeah. 30 year mortgages seem like forever. Yeah.

A (33:50)

Yeah. You know, 50 years from now, 30 years from all this note's paying good for 10 years. Cool. I'll let future Joe worry about that, you know, but it's like eventually that all catches up. Yeah. And so it's like, that's what I love about normal long hold cash flowing real estate is it grows with the market as, as inflation happens, rents go up. So it hedges against inflation, it pays for itself and then it's eventually it's worth more and more. It's not only do you still own the asset, but you can turn around, refinance it and go buy five more assets and still have that asset. And rents have been growing that whole time to keep up with inflation.

B (34:30)

Yeah, dude, that's what's so great about real estate. Yeah, real estate. There's just, I don't know of another investment vehicle where you can have so much control and so many options and so many options avenues for creativity. Real estate's awesome that way for sure.

A (34:47)

Yeah, it really is. And I love that how you did your heloc. So let's go back to that a little bit just to kind of dive into some of the details, because I think for a lot of listeners they're like, well, I could do that. You know what I mean? Like, they might not have a ton of money to tie up long term buying tons of properties. Although I love your private. Anybody could do that, you know, find someone to fund the down payment. So when you did the loan. I'm all over the place.

B (35:15)

That's okay. So many cool things.

A (35:17)

So back to the private money thing. When you did the loan. Sorry, sorry, 80%.

B (35:21)

Sorry, you're talking about when I was the lender or when I got the lender for my rentals?

A (35:25)

When you got the lender for your rentals? Yeah. So you buy these two rentals, you use private money for the down payment and you used, did you just do a conventional loan through a bank for the 80% of the rest of the purchase?

B (35:38)

Pretty much. So I don't know. Danville's weird for so many reasons, but like their banking Institutions like only did like 15 year mortgages with like a 5 year balloon or whatever. But yeah, essentially it was, it was a conventional.

A (35:53)

So it wasn't conventional loan. It was just, it was through the credit unions what they'd call like a commercial or portfolio loan.

B (35:59)

Yeah, but for that market it was, you know, quote unquote conventional for their lending instruments. But yeah, it was just a regular mortgage, I guess you could say. But yeah, that private money acted as the down payment for, for that.

A (36:13)

And, and then you just put the loan in your name.

B (36:15)

Yep. The, the, yeah, the mortgage was, was my credit, my name. Yep.

A (36:21)

Gotcha. Gotcha. So that was one benefit you had is that you could qualify under your name. You had the credit, you had the income. So, so that's cool though. But then you found private money to, to cover the down payment and it's like people could do that. Like you might think, oh, I don't have a lot of money. There's people with money and they'll be happy to get a return on real estate backed, you know, assets.

B (36:44)

Well, literally I was in college so I didn't have the lump sum, you know what I mean? Like I didn't have, I didn't have the ability to put that down payment in. So I was like, I got to figure out a way to put this together because this is a great opportunity. So.

A (36:57)

And those in house, you know, it's probably like a small credit union or local bank that lynch you a lot of times they'll be more lenient too on income levels, debt to income ratios and things like that. So somebody listening? Oh well, I couldn't even qualify for the loan. It's like you might actually be able to because this isn't a Fannie Mae Freddie Mac conventional loan where you have to have really tight debt to income ratios and a low 30 year lock. Like these institutions will, will be a lot more flexible than you know, than if you're going getting some major loans somewhere.

B (37:32)

Well, luckily. And that was the benefit of Danville, right? I mean a $50,000 house, that, that payment's not very much, you know what I mean? Once you, once you put your down payment in. So the purchase price really helped me out because of those debt to income ratios where the payment's not that much. I still could qualify because of how low the purchase price was.

A (37:53)

So you said these, these, the loan though, it had a balloon payment on the, the long term loan as well.

B (37:59)

It wasn't, it wasn't a balloon as much. It was, it was like an Arm. Right. So it was an adjustable rate at five years. They could then adjust the rate is really what it was.

A (38:09)

So what happened with that? So have you owned those for over five years?

B (38:12)

Yeah, so I try not to go too down, too far down this rabbit hole. But, but on top of all this, I also executed a debt acceleration strategy where I, you, you basically 30,000 foot view is you take a amortized loan and you convert it to a simple interest loan and then you attack it with all your income. So anyways, that's, that's what I did. And so I was actually able to pay that off within a year and a half, two years. So it didn't become a problem at all.

A (38:44)

Oh, so you, you. Yeah, that's cool. So you set up a strategy knowing, hey, in five years this, this interest rate could change. I don't know what the world would be like. It could be really high. That sounds risky to me. I'm going to just set up a strategy to pay this off before it.

B (38:58)

Becomes a problem that even happens. Exactly. And then what was nice about that is I knew that my, I knew that my private money came due in five years too. Right. That's when it ballooned and I was supposed to pay him in full. So because I took care of the mortgage and now it's like, okay, I have some options. I can either refinance or, or I can keep implementing this strategy and do the same thing with the private money guy and just pay him off that way. And that's what I ultimately did.

A (39:25)

That's cool. And now those are paid off.

B (39:27)

Yeah. So those two were free and clear before the five years were up.

A (39:31)

Cool. So you have a lot of options there still of if you just wanted to sell those or 1031 them or just cash out.

B (39:38)

Refi.

A (39:39)

Yeah, if rates ever go down.

B (39:41)

Exactly.

A (39:43)

I just heard it get again today that they just went up and then they're planning on going up even into 2023. They're planning on still raising that.

B (39:50)

So it's like hopefully, hopefully there becomes like a gap between like the Fed rate and mortgage rates. You know what I mean? Hopefully they don't increase at the same level.

A (39:59)

Hopefully, hopefully we'll see what happens. So that's cool though. So you've got a lot of options there, which again is something I love about real estate. It's like you did this work, you did this, you know, kind of creative thing and maybe not really risky, but like you, you put yourself out there, you made it happen. You bought this property.

B (40:16)

Yep.

A (40:16)

Paid it off really quick and now you're just sitting on this asset that when the right time comes, it's like you have so many options and leverage there.

B (40:24)

Yeah.

A (40:25)

Which is so cool.

B (40:26)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, for now, I'm just happy that it's free and clear and, you know, I get full rents minus, you know, property managers and stuff. But it's nice having a little bit of that security. It gives me more confidence to be a little bit more. Not risky, but have a little bit more confidence to get into more deals now because I know I had a little bit of a backstop with a free and clear property that could help me out because those that rent can supplement bad times that come or whatever. You know what I mean?

A (40:53)

Well, I think that's a really good strategy when it comes to overall investing and, and building and growing is like you need to have a portion of it, your portfolio in life that is just very secure and safe so that then you can go over here, you can take all the risks on this side that you need because you also know you're safe over here.

B (41:14)

Be a little bit more aggressive. Yep, for sure.

A (41:16)

Yeah, that was something. I was just listening to this podcast with Rob Dyrdek. He was just on Bigger Pockets.

B (41:20)

That was money. I listened to that too. That was money.

A (41:23)

It was so good. And man, he knows his stuff. He's not just some skater punk. Like, it's crazy. But he talked about that was why he got into real estate. He's like, I needed something just super secure and, and safe and solid so that I could go take risks on big business investors.

B (41:38)

Right.

A (41:39)

And ventures. And I just, I love that. Even though I do it all in real estate right now, it's like I can do more, you know, creative, you know, speculative investing over here if I have my good solid foundation over here. And, and real estate lends itself to kind of designing it however you want, like.

B (41:56)

Right. Yeah, for sure.

A (41:59)

That's cool. Well, man, this time goes by quick. I do want to go into the HELOC a little bit and then we'll kind of go out on some, some of our in doubt questions. But so let's talk about the HELOC a little bit though, just so we can kind of dive in the details for the listeners. Obviously, a HELOC is a home equity line of credit where they can tap into the equity in the home. Kind of like a revolving round of credit where you can pull some out, pay it back. What was the process like to get that? What lender did you Use. Did you use the lender that you already had set or how did you pick a lender? And what was the structure of that?

B (42:33)

Yeah, so no, dude, home equity lines of credit are a breeze, honestly, like compared to a mortgage. They're so simple. I use Mountain America Credit Union. It's a, it's a, you know, a Utah based credit union, so kind of local here. And the reason why I went with them is I just like their terms. They had like a six month introductory rate. So like for the first six months it was only like 1% interest. And then after that it's like the regular prime rate. So it was like six months of essentially free money. And then, yeah, they have a 10 year draw period. So that. Or a 10 year. Yeah, so that draw period is basically 10 years where you can use it as a revolving line of credit. And then after that 10 years, it turns into a loan that you have to pay down. So whatever balance you have on that home equity line of credit, after that 10 years, it then converts to a loan that you can't, you know, revolve anymore, like a credit card. And then you have to pay that balance down. But before that 10 years is up, you could just refinance a HELOC and start the, start the time over again, you know what I mean?

A (43:39)

So, so for the first 10 years you're able to just pull money out, use it for whatever, pay it back.

B (43:45)

Literally it's like a checking account other than it's got interest tied to it. Like, and that's, that's like part of that debt, debt reduction strategies that I talked, that I talked about. But literally it's like a checking account. So you put money in or you draw money out, right? So let's say I, you know, 5,000 bucks for whatever, and then I can put money in, take money out, just like a checking account. And they only charge you on the, on the balance that's drawn. So as soon as you pay it off, that balance decreases, your, your payment decreases. And then any, any payment that you make into that they, or any money that you put into that, they count as a payment. So you could, I don't know, want to be ethical or whatever, but you could literally take your income, put it in and drop back out the next day and they count that as a payment. So it really is, it really is secure or safe that way because there's options to like float that out if you need to because of how, how it works.

A (44:45)

So then after the, after the first 10 years, you know, you so you're pulling and if you have it all paid up though, you know, you pull out, you know, 40 grand here, you pay it back, pull up 30 grand here, pay back. If after the 10 years it's all fully paid back, instead of taking 10 years to slowly pay it back, can you just keep pulling or how does that work? Do you have to restart?

B (45:06)

You just. Basically, it's called a refinance. Right. So if, say the balance is 0 after the 10 years, then it would basically go away. Away and your HELOC gone.

A (45:15)

But yeah, and then you could just.

B (45:16)

Open, Just open a new lock. Yeah.

A (45:18)

And do the whole 10. So it's like you have to draw for 10 years and pay back. For 10 years you can draw and pay back like we've been talking about. So and then when the 10 years draw period's up, you could just refinance and open a new.

B (45:30)

So actually a new job period. So actually right when I built my house is right when I got my first HELOC and I only had, you know, only, like I was able to get a heloc for about 100 grand, 120 grand. But the last two years, you know, obviously you know what's gone up, you know what's happened with, with house prices, I got a lot more equity. So within two years I just refinanced my HELOC and turned it into, you know, a lot more than, than what I had before. So you can re. Literally, you could do this every two years. Mountain America, you have to pay 500 bucks if you refinance before two years. But if you can get.

A (46:04)

But after two years, it doesn't even cost.

B (46:06)

It doesn't cost a dime, doesn't cost it.

A (46:08)

Which is so cool because if you go refinance your normal house, you're paying lender fees, you're paying me, or you're paying five or ten grand at least when you go to a actual refinance of a full mortgage. But with these heloc, you know, it didn't cost me.

B (46:22)

Yeah, it didn't cost me a dime.

A (46:23)

Free to restart. That's super cool. So again, yeah, if anybody's listening, go, go open a HELOC on your primary.

B (46:33)

Just don't be stupid with it. And buy a boat. Yeah. Only assets.

A (46:36)

No.

B (46:36)

Yeah, yeah.

A (46:36)

Don't remodel your kitchen with it. Don't buy a boat with it. Recycle the money to buy assets that can pay itself back for sure. And whether you're doing that private money, that's really cool. How you're able to lend out the money. And, and, and for people wanting to get into real estate, I think that could be a really cool way to say, hey, I, this is the thought that crossed my mind is like, find someone that's doing what you want. Say, hey, I've got this HELOC money, I'll fund your project. Show me.

B (47:03)

Absolutely.

A (47:04)

But walk me through.

B (47:05)

Absolutely.

A (47:06)

Like, I don't care about the 8% or 10% interest you're going to pay me back. Like, yeah, give me that because I'm giving you the money. But like, I'll give you two points.

B (47:14)

Less if you, if you walk, you.

A (47:16)

Show me how to do the deal. You know what I mean? Like, that's something that so many people could do right now because like you said, the way we just saw appreciation of all these homes skyrocket the past three years, so many people have never had money. All of a sudden I have access to hundreds of thousands of dollars in their equity and they're like, what am I going to do with it? You know, and the ignorant people are going to go pull that out and, and they're going to, you know, like say, buy boats or they're going to, you know, remodel the kitchen finally or whatever and just waste this, this opportunity. But the smart ones will find ways to leverage that and recycle it and use it again and again and again. And I think that could be a really cool way to find fund a project, learn how it's done. And I don't know a real estate investor alive that wouldn't take your money, especially if you do give two or three points less. Sure. You know, if most private money or hard money is charging 10% and you say, hey, I'll give it to you for 7% and teach me what you do through the whole project. I'll do that deal all day long for sure.

B (48:20)

Yeah, I agree. And one thing, one more thing I'll say about a HELOC is don't be afraid to shop around. Like, I helped my brother and he was going with just the bank, the bank that he banks with, and they were only going to give him X amount of money. And then I said, hey, try over here. And it was literally double the amount that he could get. So, yeah, don't be afraid to shop around.

A (48:43)

Yeah, I think that's really good advice because I remember when I was looking at heloc, some do charge, they'll be like, oh yeah, you got to pay this fee and this startup fee and this appraisal fee and blah, blah, you know, there's a couple grand in fees and then another one talked for like literally zero.

B (48:57)

Right.

A (48:58)

And I was like, whoa. And some, you know, I, I found one that has a 10 year draw period, but then a 20 year payback.

B (49:04)

That's awesome.

A (49:05)

Instead of a 10 year.

B (49:05)

Yeah.

A (49:06)

So you could almost stretch this out to a 30 year loan. And I know with PNC bank at least they claim to have like an option where you could even lock a portion. So if you, let's say you had 100 grand equity, you could put 50 of it as that kind of revolving credit and lock 50 of it into a long term investment like we keep saying not to do. But if it's locked and you know what the numbers are and you can calculate it, that can be pretty safe. So yeah, not all HELOC are created for sure. Shop around. That's really, really good advice. And like you say, if you find a better one in two or three years, refinance, haven't re open a better.

B (49:45)

One sometimes, like literally. So if you're going to get 30 grand more at this bank and it's only within that one year, like pay the 500 bucks, you know what I mean? Like you're getting 330 grand over here. It's cheap.

A (49:56)

Well, and then when you add in these introductory rates, like say if you can go get money at 1% or 4% or something right now, because it's an introductory rate, lend that out to some house flipper. I know a guy in Hawaii right now that he'll give you 12% interest on your money, money for six months if you help him pay for his flip.

B (50:16)

Right.

A (50:16)

I'm like, so go open a HELOC. 50 grand, give it to him. You're paying 3%, he's giving you 12 and you don't have to do anything.

B (50:28)

Yep.

A (50:29)

Like my goodness, you know, so anyway, that's one thing that's cool about real estate is there's so many options and you really don't have to be the professional. You don't have to know everything. You're kind of just like managing these different pieces to the puzzle for sure, you know?

B (50:44)

For sure.

A (50:46)

Well, sweet Todd, this has been a fast hour. Yeah, no, I've had a lot of fun.

B (50:50)

I've had a lot of fun.

A (50:53)

Before we end out, let me ask you, is there any kind of specific failures you've had or guiding principles that have kind of moved you through your investing career that have been a big part of your strategy.

B (51:07)

As far as values. Like, I want to create win win situations, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want real estate to be a zero sum game. So I'd rather not do a deal than, than make it a lose for someone else, like the seller or the buyer. So I try and at least have that be a guiding value as far as failures. It kind of goes back to what I said before. Like, risk isn't in the investor, it's in the. Or, sorry, it's not in the investment, it's in the investor. I'm still beating my, my head over this one, but like got caught up in the crypto hype, you know what I mean? No, nothing. I know nothing about crypto. Have no business being in crypto. Like, I do believe in the blockchain and the technology and stuff like that, but like, I don't, I don't know that technology. And so of course I, you know, throw some money at it pretty much. I, you know, I haven't sold, so technically I haven't lost it all, but it's pretty much worth zero. So. But, but, but the investment wasn't risky. I was. Because I'm not educated in that space. I, like I said, I don't know. I haven't spent the time to learn that space. And so it was me just throwing money at the wind, essentially. So.

A (52:13)

Yeah, no, I love that concept. You know that it's, it's the investor.

B (52:18)

Yeah.

A (52:18)

You know, because you, you can make a good deal, you know, bad.

B (52:23)

Yeah.

A (52:23)

Or you can make a bad deal good if you can get creative enough and position yourself. I love that concept. Well, let's roll into our in doubt questions here, man. So I actually changed one up on you, so we'll see if that's.

B (52:37)

Oh, curveball.

A (52:38)

I know, I got bored of the other ones. I wanted to shake it up. Sounds good. So first question though, Tyler. What is a non real estate related bucket list item that you're excited to check off next?

B (52:50)

It's got to be something with mountain biking. So like, I want a mountain bike. British Columbia. There's a couple of trails in Moab like Sedonia. So those types of things, I want to check those off of, of my list. I'm addicted for sure.

A (53:05)

Okay. Big mountain bike.

B (53:07)

Yeah.

A (53:07)

You need to take me out and show me the.

B (53:09)

Let's do it.

A (53:09)

Very amateur.

B (53:11)

Amateur anytime. I will, I will jump at the opportunity.

A (53:14)

So I like that. Well, sweet dude. And then. All right, next question is, what book are you currently reading?

B (53:21)

Oh, I actually need a new one. I. Two days ago, I just finished listening to how to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. Classic. You know what I mean? So I actually need a new one.

A (53:32)

That's the first time you've read it, or is this, like, on repeat?

B (53:35)

That's the first time I've gone all the way through. I've. I've dabbled in it a few times. So. Yeah, no, I loved it. It was. Yeah, it was good. So.

A (53:42)

But, yeah, classic. Yeah, like you said, I need to.

B (53:44)

It is one of those, like, annual reads, for sure. But no, I need some recommendations, for sure.

A (53:50)

Okay, well, that's good. I just finished reading the book on real estate negotiating by J. Scott, and it was pretty good. It's interesting how much non. Negotiating information was in there as well, but the negotiating stuff was really good. And, I mean, he's the guy who started biggerpockets. He did a lot of house flipping. A lot of. It's kind of gauged towards that.

B (54:13)

That's cool.

A (54:14)

But a lot of good content in there. Okay, but that's. That's awesome, man. All right, so final question here. Everybody's phone is about to go off. Like mine just did a minute ago. That was my mom calling me.

B (54:26)

It's all right. My wife is buzzed in like, five times, so.

A (54:29)

Yeah, at least your phone stayed on silent. I don't know why my. She must have, like, I must have her, as. I think it's because she's my emergency contact. So it. Like, it doesn't. Yeah, it goes through silence. It's like, mom can call anytime. All right, so if you send a message, though, and it busts to everybody's silent mode, everybody's phone goes off. What is the text message from Tyler Miller gonna say?

B (54:52)

This is actually a really good question. And it's. It's kind of tough because it's like a I got one shot kind of a thing, you know? But I think it would be some fancy way of just saying that believe in yourself. People don't act because they lack faith or they lack a belief in something. Like, if you have enough belief or you have enough faith in something, you start to act. So, like real estate, for instance, if you're not taking action on real estate, it's because you lack a belief in something. And it's either you lack belief in real estate itself that it could get you to your goals and your financial freedom and those types of things, or you don't believe in yourself. And there's plenty of. Plenty of proof, plenty of resources, plenty of gurus plenty of podcasts to prove that real estate works. So it really, I think people don't act because they, they just don't believe in themselves. They don't have the confidence. And that's, that's like a message to me because that's something that prohibits me from taking action. A lot is just lack of self confidence or whatever it is. So people just need to believe in themselves a little bit more and believe that they have the power within them to. To reach their dreams. For sure.

A (56:01)

I love that, man. And just to touch on that before we roll out, I think, you know, I think just keeping those little promises yourself is how I found how to believe myself. When I started to get, like, low or, like, anxious wherever it's like, okay, well, wake up on the time you said you'd wake up. Do the workout you said you would do. Take the cold shower you said you would, like, just make a tiny little commitment to yourself and then just do it.

B (56:26)

Yep.

A (56:27)

Just even one. Just. And as you do those tiny little commitments to yourself, you'll start to believe in yourself and then you can, you know, just let that snowball.

B (56:35)

I agree.

A (56:36)

Well, this has been super fun, man. We will look forward to following you, your journey. If people do want to follow you and like, kind of see what you're doing or get in touch about learning some of the tax issues or doing deals with you or whatnot, what's the best way for them to be in touch?

B (56:50)

Just reach out to me on Instagram. It's Tyler Miller is not a very original name. So it's a T. Miller Time. T. Miller time.

A (56:59)

So t.miller. time. Yep, Miller time. I like it, man. Awesome. Hopefully everybody reach out to Tyler. Give him some love. Without any further ado, this is Joe Jensen signing off for the Real Estate Investing School podcast, reminding you to learn enough and then bet on yourself.

B (57:18)

It.