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How to MAX Out Your Cash Flow Per Property with “The New Airbnb” (Rookie Reply)
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- [00:00]
Tony J. Robinson
If you've got money saved and your financing figured out, but you're also having analysis paralysis on what market to jump into, this episode is for you. Today we're answering questions about real world problems that Ricky investors are facing right now. We're tackling everything from how to find the right market when you already have financing and a very specific buy box to what's the best way to make co living work as a strategy. So what's up guys? My name is Tony J. Robinson and today I have Garrett Brown from bigger stock days filling in for Ashley Care. Garrett. What's up brother? How you doing today man?
- [00:36]
Garrett Brown
Doing good. I, I got some big shoes to fill with Ashley being gone, but I'm, I'm hoping to step up to the plate for everyone.
- [00:41]
Tony J. Robinson
So you got some big shoes. You gotta, you gotta have your repertoire of like weird 90s movies quotes in your back pocket to keep everyone on their toes, man. But excited to have you here brother. So let's, let's jump into the first question. So the first question here says would a pad split rent by the room work on a five bed two bath property? I'm debating either selling or doing a pad split on my five to rental. For a pad split I could realistically get five people or at least four filling the house. One bathroom is a private ensuite to the master bedroom. So there would be three to four people sharing a single vanity, full hallway bath. I could charge more to the person who gets a master bedroom is what I'm assuming. But has anyone done a rent by the room strategy with a similar house layout? So co living pad split. I think first Gary, let's just kind of break down what that strategy is and how it differs from a traditional long term rental. Co living or rent by the room is kind of exactly what it sounds like, right? Instead of having this big five bedroom two bath where you rent it out to one family or to one tenant, you break it up and you rent out each individual room. So instead of having one tenant for all five bedrooms, you have five tenants each with their own room or you if you're living in one of those units as well. And I think the reason that the co living strategy is gaining a little bit more traction A because there's, there's opportunities out there like pad split now which are making the, the facilitation of this a little bit easier. But B, it's a way to really increase cash flow. And we've interviewed multiple people. Miller, McSwain, the nossums about the co living and rent by the room strategies and it really is a way to, to kind of juice the returns from a traditional single family property. So that's kind of what it is and why it's gaining some, I think, getting so much traction now. So I guess Garrett, in your perspective, thoughts on. Because it sounds like this person likes the idea of co living, but their biggest concern is just like, hey, is it unreasonable to have one person or one bathroom for three to potentially four different people? So what's, what's your take?
- [02:43]
Garrett Brown
You know, I don't have a lot of, you know, experience with the, with this type of model, but the things I do know about it is it's, you know, it's very popular in more college towns and things. You have, you know, different roommates renting out rooms in that kind of perspective. Me personally, I would probably like, I would think that the bathroom thing is going to be a logistical issue within your, you know, guest and roommates. A lot of times when I've heard this be successful, they usually have a higher bathroom count. They maybe can, you know, supplement this amount of guests into it. I would, I would be curious if your market has the desire to have, you know, different roommates in each room and things like that, because not every market really has the appetite for this type of thing. Do, are there other successful models in that area or are just, you know, a full single family home? Is that the more traditional model there that you're probably gonna have a higher and you know, a better guest, you know, a better tenant pool, let me say, to actually attract from. So I, I personally would be a little wary with that bathroom count, but maybe there's an opportunity to add another bathroom or something because then not only are you starting to get into adding equity to your place, but you're also making it more suitable for this type of arrangement. So I, I'd be a little wary of this, but if you can add that it, it may be something to consider. What, what are your, what are your thoughts on this, Tony?
- [04:02]
Tony J. Robinson
Yeah, I mean, you kind of took the words out of my mouth, Garrett. I think if the property's big enough, could you potentially add the additional bedroom, bathroom, whatever it else that you need to really make this work? And when we interviewed the Nossons on the podcast, that was kind of their strategy. They would go out and find a five bedroom and then they were convert, you know, say that there's a separate living room, dining room than like a formal, you know, living room. They would convert one of those spaces into more bedrooms you know, and into more bathrooms. And they would really squeeze what they could out of that square footage because, and it makes sense. Like their thought process was in, in a co living strategy or with the co living strategy, I should say that people aren't really just like hanging out in the living room or in all the living spaces like that. So if you've got all these different communal spaces, it's kind of not always going to be used. So can we instead turn that extra space into rentable space to really juice up the revenue? So I kind of like that approach where if you've already got the asset, how much more would it cost to slap up, you know, a few pieces of drywall in the closet, add another bedroom, slap together a few pieces of drywall, a sink and a shower, you know, throw in a, throw in a bathroom, and now you've got an additional bedroom with some additional bathrooms as well. So I think that would be my strategy.
- [05:20]
Garrett Brown
I agree. As long as that and you get everything permitted within, wherever the area you're at. Like, I think from a long term play that that adds a lot of value to your bottom, to your net worth and at the same time makes that model just seem, seem so much more reasonable and like you'll get a better, a better tenant pool that comes around.
- [05:36]
Tony J. Robinson
And I guess the only last thing I'd say is just like, also look at your competition and if you're looking at other room rentals and you see that the ratio typically in your market is five bedrooms to two bathrooms, then you're fine. You know, it's like, okay, cool, then we can just roll with that. But if you notice that most of the other room rentals, it's like five bedrooms to two, three or four bathrooms. And yeah, it's obviously an issue you got to go address, but the leaning into the data to help you make that decision will probably be, be my take there.
- [06:05]
Garrett Brown
I can agree with that. And see, see what the capacity is for, you know, check Airbnb and other places like that to see if there's even, you know, an appetite maybe for there and know that you're going to have more logistical issues too, dealing with five different tenants in one house as opposed to one tenant renting out the house and just be prepared for that as you're stepping into it.
- [06:23]
Tony J. Robinson
All right, guys, we want to start talking about short term rentals, right? Which is the, the kind of bread and butter for me and Garrett. We've got some friends from north of the border in Canada who are looking to buy in the US and we want to give them a little bit of advice on what it looks like to buy in this market. But first, we're going to take a quick break to hear a word from today's show sponsors. We'll be right back after this.
- [06:41]
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- [07:11]
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- [07:57]
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- [08:38]
Tony J. Robinson
All right guys, welcome back. Garrett, what's our what's our second question for today?
- [08:42]
Garrett Brown
So the second question for today is my husband and I are looking at buying our first str. We are Canadian Wanting to invest in the US market as it is far more stable than Canada. I had an STR back in the day when Airbnb started. My husband is a contractor and I'm in real estate so we were wanting to do a value add. I do all the design work for his company and we both love water and we're definitely and we definitely believe in the philosophy of investing of where you would like to vacation. I also would like to do a one bed, one bath place as it feels as a bit of an untapped market. We like to stay in properties nicer than our home when we travel and we always find it difficult discovering luxury. One bed, one bath, smaller accommodations and always seem to end up renting a two bed house that is far bigger than what we require just to get the luxury component. We will be looking at a DSCR loan. So if we were to start all over again, what advice would you give a rookie Canadian investing in the US market? It will be our first time owning a STR short term rental remotely, so all advice is welcome. We love North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia and Florida. We like water. We are not interested in the West Coast. Our goal is to eventually do a land hack and then lead up to a boutique hotel. This is definitely an interesting, you know, there's a lot of things to unpack there. This is somewhat of a model I followed when I was building up some of my short term rentals, doing land hacking and and really trying to dominate the smaller cabin market. So I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are as this all kind of came about as we were talking about it Tony, and where your thoughts are for them.
- [10:20]
Tony J. Robinson
I think a few things unpack in this question, but sounds like maybe the first part is like kind of where you know, you mentioned a few different markets but then the other piece is like the remote management side. Right. So I think there's two different things to tackle here on the where it sounds like for you, like you said, investing in a place that you also want a vacation is important to you, which I totally appreciate. Not the same for us in our portfolio, but everyone kind of approaches this differently. So I think as you're as you're going through and you're looking at potential markets, I would really encourage you to look at all of the data associated with that market using websites like airdna Price Labs and look at the year over year data and just understand how are things trending in that market. I. I've had the good fortune of looking at a lot of different markets in a lot of different cities and, you know, working with different people as they look to buy their first Airbnbs. And because that I've. I've seen trends just kind of nationally across a lot of different markets. And the trend that we typically see is 2020, you know, Covid, really weird year. 2021, post Covid boom, you saw supply increase dramatically. You saw rates, occupancy, revenue increase dramatically. 2022, supply continued to grow. The growth in revenue died off a little bit. 2023, things reversed in a lot of markets where you saw revenue come down because supply growth was continuing to increase. So you saw this, this thing happen where supply ballooned. It pulled down rates because there was this oversupply. And then 2024, in many markets was this year of like, rebalancing, where we started to see gains again because there were a lot of people who left. There are a lot of people who jumped in that shouldn't have. And the ones that stayed were the ones who are really doing this the right way. So just looking at the overall data to see which way is this market trending? Because, say that the market you would like to vacation in, what if supply is still growing at 20% to 30% every single year? Is that a sustainable market for you to invest in for 2025 and beyond? But if you look and you see the supply has gone to almost zero from 2023 to 2024, then that's a good sign. Right? Because it means that things are starting to balance out on that market. So I think before you even really go deep into a market, look at the underlying data. What does supply growth look like? What is occupancy look like? What does your revpar look like? Right. And look at those numbers to kind of gauge the health of that market.
- [12:51]
Garrett Brown
Yeah, that makes total sense. And I think it's great advice for people looking into specific markets that, you know, they might have seen, you know, in the top 10 Airbnb places to invest in. And a lot of those lists that come out, you know, I'm. I'm guilty of making a ton of those types of lists for bigger pockets quite a bit. And sometimes those markets, once they're getting publicized so much, they might become quite. You know, I don't. Yeah, not the best, for lack of better words. So that's any. That's when you use the tools that you have out there. And I think, you know, they talk about a DSCR loan, I think, which is a debt service coverage ratio loan, which essentially this just means, does the property. You know, loan lenders will look at the property as a business, like how much income it actually produces if you'll be able to cover that debt that is on the property, AKA your mortgage. So these are good tools to use because then you also have a secondary set of eyes that is looking at the property with you from a, you know, a lending standpoint that might be able to point out to you like, hey, this property isn't going to work for us. And there's a lot, there's a lot more restrictions around DSCR loans sometimes of, you know, how, you know, how they price them and where they get some of their data from. This might be a good use of this type of loan too though, because they might be able to have be that second set that needs to tell you like, hey, you might think this property is going to, you know, make this much money, but looking at the data we use, it's, it's not going to cover the debt and we're not going to be able to lend on. And that might be a time that the actually save you from getting into a property that you didn't necessarily want to. And to kind of talk about where she was, you know, mentioning the one bedroom, one bath is kind of an untapped market. I would say that really depends on the market because I can agree there are some specific areas that a one bedroom, one bath might excel and it might be something kind of underutilized. I kind of think that the gap in the market right now is you either need to go smaller, like a one bedroom, one bath, or go really large, you know, five bedroom to that. Because I think when you get caught in that middle ground of a, you know, a two bedroom, a three bedroom, you're probably, probably paying a premium to get that property, especially in a vacation market. And I, you know, this is all market specific, but just from a holistic viewpoint that revenue that you're going to have coming in probably isn't going to be able to, you know, compensate for what you're putting down into the house. So if you're kind of stuck in that limbo, I would lean towards, you know, in all market specific, like I mentioned, lean towards a one bedroom, one bath or even air. DNA not long ago put out one of their major reports talking about how larger homes are still some of the bread and butter for short term rentals in most markets around too. So I wouldn't, you know, I just wouldn't get caught in the middle there particularly. But each market is different and sometimes you Know, the data might say completely different. That's why you need to really, really focus on what information is out there for you and be, you know, kind of a research nerd when it comes to looking into these particular markets.
- [15:53]
Tony J. Robinson
Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point, Garrett, of different bedrooms counts perform differently depending on the market. And in some markets, more so in like the urban and suburban markets where there's a lot of competition from hotels, the, the one bedrooms in the studios have actually fared worse because people oftentimes there's so much hotel inventory. Right. And it's that the kind of larger properties that you mentioned that tend to do well. So I think for whatever market it is that you're considering, not only look at the market wide data, but then also filter that data down so you're looking just at the one bedrooms and see how those have fared. Because maybe the overall market is seeing a recovery, maybe the overall market is seeing growth. When you filter down to just one bedrooms, what if it's the inverse? Right. Or maybe it's doing even better to the market. So I think there's, there's something to be said there to, to filter it down. I guess the other part of this question was the remote management. And I think honestly managing remotely is a lot easier today than it would have been five, you know, ten even, even five years ago. Right. But there's in my mind a few key things that you need and I'm curious to get your take as well here. But the first, you need, you need your people, right? So you need a good cleaner, you need a good handyman. They're going to be your eyes, your ears on the ground. They're going to know the property better than you will because they're in it, you know, especially your cleaners after every single turn. So getting a really good cleaner, getting a really good handyman, those are the first things. Second is your tech stack. And the ones that I would highly encourage that you get are obviously a PMS electric or keyless entry pad. Right. We, we use the schlegen code. We like using software like Breezeway that's gonna allow you to really inspect the work your cleaners are doing. And then a digital guidebook, right. Like there's other tech you might need as well. But in terms of like the remote management piece, those are kind of the, the key ones that I would see. So you've got your tech handling a lot of the heavy lifting, you've got your people reinforcing and then you, I think even when you're remote, it's still good to get out there a couple times a year just to get your own eyes on it. You know, we, we were at our properties in Tennessee right before Christmas this year. We hadn't been because we had a baby and it was just always good. We have amazing cleaners but they still miss things, right. And they might think something is fine that you and your mind actually want to change or that you want to fix. So it's good to still get out there in some regular cadence as well. So if you do those things, regular visits, really solid team, right Tech. I think the remote management tends to work really well. Anything to add to that, Garrett?
- [18:23]
Garrett Brown
No, I think you hit it right on the head. You know, I'm a big advocate of self managing your portfolio especially if it's your first or second property. There's numerous benefits there, there's, there's tax benefits there to being, you know, spending the most amount of hours on your property. I think one thing to just kind of highlight as well too about when you talk about team is if you are going out of state, make sure you're using a real estate agent that is short term rental knowledgeable, like an investor friendly agent that we have a lot of those at bigger pockets. You can find them at the agent finder but make sure that they are have experience in the short term rental world because nothing's worse than having somebody that sold, you know, a few residential homes in a neighborhood somewhere and then you get, then you get paired up with them to help with your short term rental purchase and they don't know anything about the nuances that come with, you know, actually having a short term rental. So ask them, you know, what percentage of deals last year were short term rentals? Do they own any short term rentals? Do they have any recommendations for cleaners and handy people in the area? This will start to give you a little, you know, insight into the actual area and really work with somebody that knows the landscapes of short term rentals because they're, they are a big real estate investment but they are just slightly different than most other traditional investments with the, you know, different things that could be in place, restrictions and you know, legalities that could follow.
- [19:46]
Tony J. Robinson
I guess we've got one more question and this one's about a dilemma about throwing axes at your short term rental property. So actually a question I've never been asked before so I'm excited to answer it. But first we're going to take our last break and while we're gone if you haven't yet subscribed to our YouTube channel, you can find us at Real Estate Rookie. We drop not only all of our full podcast episodes, we also do some dedicated YouTube videos there as well. So again at Real Estate Rookie and we'll see you guys right after this break.
- [20:16]
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- [20:45]
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- [21:29]
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- [22:04]
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For landlords I was never really a runner. The way I see running is a gift, especially when you have stage four cancer. I'm Ann. I'm running the Boston Marathon presented by bank of America. I run for Dana Farber Cancer Institute to give people like me a chance to thrive in life Even with cancer.
- [22:24]
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Join bank of America in helping Ann's cause. Give if you can@b of a.comSupportAnn what would you like the power to do? References to charitable organizations is not an endorsement by bank of America Corporation. Copyright 2020.
- [22:40]
Tony J. Robinson
All right, guys, we're back here with our last question. And like I said before the break, this is a question that I've literally, I've been asked a lot of questions about short term rentals. I've never been asked this specific question. So let's get into it. So this person says we're getting our first Airbnb ready here in Colorado. We have an axe throwing lane in the backyard that came with the property. We were wondering if anyone has successfully done something similar in their Airbnb. Our insurance is saying they can't cover it with liability, but what about having a guest sign a waiver? If we could include it as part of the Airbnb, it would definitely make us stand out. So, yeah, I definitely agree that having ax throwing at your Airbnb would make you stand out because no one else has it. But I think no one else has it potentially because, like, just so terrifying to think of having your guests walk around with axes unsupervised at your Airbnb. I'll give my take here, and I'm curious what you think, man, but I, I would not at any of my properties, you know, liability waiver or otherwise, I think allow my guests to have something as potentially dangerous as an ax at the property. Right. Like, you know, when you're at the ax throwing places, like, there's, there's staff there, like, hey, don't cross this line. You know, if you're doing something silly, they can kick you out, whatever it may be. But just untethered access to, you know, an ax makes me kind of nervous as a host. What's your initial reaction, Garrett?
- [24:09]
Garrett Brown
I have a very similar reaction, especially if you're insurance, which I'm hoping it's a short term rental. Specific insurance is telling you it's a liability. It's probably something I would not entertain. A waiver, you know, isn't most likely going to save you from any type of lawsuit that may come from it. And it just, it just seems like a bad idea all around. Like you mentioned, there's, there's no staff on site. You know, even at one of my rentals before, we had a lot of land in one of my glamping sites and we, we towed with. Toyed with the idea of, you know, letting, having golf cart rentals on site. And our insurance was like, please don't do that. We were like, oh, maybe we'll get a waiver. We talked to a few other people in the space and it was pretty much a hard no on all ends for us. You know, what we would have to do logistically to have, you know, make sure it's working because you also want to provide the. If you're providing this amenity, it has to be, you know, fully functional. So if something goes wrong, guests are going to blame you. And, you know, and if something goes wrong, you're likely the one to be sued, especially if insurance isn't covered. And I think the smarter route here is to see if there's any ax throwing places within your community or any other type of fun events. You know, I, I have, I have, I have a place with water on it. I don't rent jet skis at all, but I have partnered with a local company to give a discount code to my guest that they can go rent the jet skis from, you know, a whole nother place that has liability insurance to cover that and is just completely off my property. So they still get the amenities. I don't have to deal with the headache and the extra cost that would even be associated with trying to get insurance on this. And so it still provides the guest experience that I want. And, you know, guests are safe and sound on my property and I sleep better at night.
- [25:51]
Tony J. Robinson
Yeah. And, you know, neither Garrett nor myself are attorneys. Right. So I think for everyone that's listening, so go get some, some real legal advice. But a liability waiver can't prevent someone from suing you, like just because they signed the waiver. That's not them saying that I will not sue you. So they could still sue you. They just might lose. But even just the headache of like something like that potentially happening and you so having to pay for a lawyer just to protect yourself, even the idea of that, I think is what kind of turns me off from it. And even if you, like, even if, even if they do sue, there is still a chance that maybe the judge does rule. Like, hey, you as the owner, you as the host were negligent in some way and you didn't do a necessary job of protecting your guests at your property. So, hey, yes, you are on the hook. So, yeah, hard, hard no, for me, when we bought our hotel, Garrett, something similar, the previous owners had a bike rentals just like normal bicycles. They rented to all the, all the, the guests who were saying. And our insurance company said, look, you can keep the, you can keep the bikes, but your premium is going to go up by X. And we're like, yeah, it's not even worth it, right? Let's get rid of the bikes. So, yeah, I think insurance companies, they probably seen enough claims to know what things to charge a premium for, and there's probably a reason they're saying, saying no to the axes. So if you're looking for ways to stand out, there are probably other safer amenities or experiences that you can add. Heck, I've even seen like, like magnet ax throwing where it's the same idea, but it's like a magnet board and it's not a real ax. Right? So, you know, even if someone got hurt, like, you know, it's definitely safer than, than a traditional ax. So, yeah, hard no, for me, I'd.
- [27:35]
Garrett Brown
Rather you spend, you know, a few hundred dollars on different outdoor games cornhole and go the full route. You know, I mean, even in one of my properties, we built a small putting green, you know, like thousand bucks, super simple. You know, insurance has no problem with that. So, you know, like, those are, there's, there's a, there's a few things out there that you can really, really think about and you know, browse Wayfair and Amazon and all these sites to see, hey, what are some other outdoor games that I actually could supply that are a lot less on the liability side that my insurance is going to be a little happier. And we already know premiums are going up at record paces. So we don't, we, yeah, we don't want to, we don't want to add to that in any of mine. So I would definitely stay to the, the safer routes and you give a.
- [28:19]
Tony J. Robinson
Great call out of like the putting greens. Like we added mini golf to one of our properties to a very inexpensive. But for everyone that's listening, like if you just want some good motivation around what you can add. Airbnb has like different sections, different categories that you can browse. And one of those categories is play. Just like P L A Y play. And if you just click on that, open up your search, your search nationwide and you can see just like a lot of cool like play type things that people have added to their properties. And if your property's in Colorado, who cares if you copy something that someone's doing in Brazil? You know, it's like no one's ever going to be shopping Colorado and Brazil at the same time, right? So you can implement something similar into your own listing. So just, just an idea to maybe get some more motivation on what you can add that maybe won't be as scary.
- [29:11]
Garrett Brown
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
- [29:12]
Tony J. Robinson
Awesome. Well Garrett, I appreciate you jumping in and covering for Ashley today man. As always is good we can catch up and talk shop about short term rentals. Where can folks get in touch with you man?
- [29:22]
Garrett Brown
You can find me on the brand new Bigger Stays YouTube channel that was launched by Bigger Pockets that is specific for short term rental investing and you can find me on Instagram at Garrett.
- [29:32]
Tony J. Robinson
Brown re well Ricky's, thank you for hanging out with us today. As always, if you're enjoying the podcast, please do subscribe to our YouTube channel. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, be sure to leave an honest rating and review. I think the more folks that know about the Rookie channel, the more folks we can impact. And the more folks we can impact, the more folks we can help get on their way to building financial freedom, which is what we all want. So again, if you guys are enjoying it, subscribe, share with someone else. That's it for today guys. My name is Tony J. Robinson. Joining me today is Garrett Brown filling in for Ashley Care and we'll see you guys next time on an episode of Real Estate Rookie.
- [30:05]
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Want to invest in real estate but don't have the time or know the best local markets? Rent to Retirement has got you covered. Here's the deal. They've helped thousands of investors just like you find turnkey homes across the best US Markets. And best of all, they do all the heavy lifting for you. With over 255 star ratings on bigger Pockets, Rent to Retirement experts help you build strong strategies to retire early through real estate. And right now, Rent to Retirement offers some amazing incentives on turnkey new construction properties. Just for example, you can get up to 30% off new build prices or you can get 0% down. Loan options or interest rates available as low as 3.99%. So don't miss out. These deals will not last. Text REI to 33777 or visit biggerpockets.com retirement to start investing in top cash flow markets today.