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- [00:00]
A
If you are sitting there right now trying to decide whether to buy your first house hack before your income changes, or whether the rate window you call for today is worth jumping on even if the deal does not fully cash flow, we are answering that exact question today.
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And if you've ever googled do I need an LLC before I buy a rental property? And ended up even more confused than when you started, we're cutting through all of that noise and giving you a straight answer.
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Is the Real Estate Rookie podcast.
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B
I'm Ashley Kerr and I'm Tony J. Robinson. With that, let's get into our first question for today. So this question comes from the Bigger Pockets forums and it says I'm 23 years old and I'm currently planning to house hack my first property in the St. Charles, Missouri area with my fiance. I'm primarily looking for a multifamily property, a duplex ideally, since my fiance isn't comfortable with renting out individual rooms in a single family home. We're getting married in a couple of months, but I'm hoping to buy before then because Missouri's first place program offers below market interest rates for first time buyers who make under 96,000 in household income. I currently earn about 92k, so once we're married our combined income will push us over that limit and we'll lose eligibility. The first place non DPA option offers rates around 5.25%, which is a full percent lower than what I likely get on a standard conventional loan after we're married. The issue is that the St. Charles market is extremely competitive and I'm struggling to find any duplex cash flow even modestly once I factor in long term expenses like management, maintenance and vacancy. Right now we're in a great situation, renting a house with a friend and only paying about $800 per month total for our share. Financially, there's no urgency to move, but I feel pressure to lock in this rate window before we lose eligibility after the wedding. My question is number one, does it make sense to buy now just to capture the 5.25% rate even if the first property doesn't cash flow? Well, two, how do you personally weigh below market financing versus waiting for a truly cash flowing deal? And three, in a market like St. Charles where duplexes are rare and competitive, would you consider breaking even or slightly negative cash flow acceptable for your first house hack? If it's a strong long term location, our right lot lot to kind of unpack here, but we'll kind of break it down for for Each question, but, but I think the first thing, and he didn't quite clarify this, but the question says, or in the question he says that he's having a hard time finding a deal that'll, that'll cash flow. I'm struggling to find any duplex that will cash flow even modestly once I factor in long term expenses. And then he also goes on to say the spending right now, $800 per month for living. So I, I think the way that I look at this mathematically is not necessarily how much cash flow will this house hack produce, but how much were your living expenses change? Right. So if, if going into this duplex, right. Or, or this house hack situation, even if it's, you know, not positive cash flow, if you're able to take your living expenses from $800 a month to $200 per month, or that's still a net gain of $600 every single month that, that you didn't have before. Not to mention you're getting the appreciation and the loan pay down on this property as well. So I think I would just, you know, maybe clarify what do you mean when you say that the deals aren't cash flowing? Because honestly in a lot of house hacking situations, you're not typically living, you know, quote unquote, for free. You're just significantly subsidizing the cost of your living.
- [03:43]
A
Yeah, that was the first thing I was going to point out too as to were you expecting to live there for free and to get cash flow where that can definitely happen, but is a lot harder to get. And I think you broke it down perfectly as to how to actually compare it apples to apples to what you're paying now with rent and how you're able to maybe reduce your expenses. But also the other benefits that come along, the mortgage pay down the appreciation that comes with that too. The next thing that he had asked that we want to look at is how do you personally weigh below market fancy financing versus waiting for a truly cash flowing deal? I think we kind of answered that as to this possibly could be a truly beneficial deal for you if you were looking at just like a stage standard investment. I would not, I would probably not take the deal knowing that I could get this discounted financing rate just to be able to buy something. And I would wait to cash flow because it's not my primary residence, it's not expenses. I, you know, I'm already paying in my, my household. I would want the deal to at least break even or be able to cash flow to like cover Itself, I wouldn't want to come out of my own pocket for my first investment to be able to cover it just because I want to lock in a 5.25% interest rate. But the situation for house hacking is very different, that I think you could make it work for you and not cash flow because it is. You're going to be your primary residence. The next question here is, so the. That area is really competitive for duplexes. And again, he talks about the cash flow and how do you find a property that has a strong location but may have negative cash flow on it? I think he's thinking of the appreciation play as to whether it's okay to take negative cash flow because it's going to be appreciating in that location. You're going to get that benefit from it. But I think as your house hack, it also has some personal preference to it as to where you want to live and what type of property you like. I do think that you probably will have an advantage making offers on duplexes because you will most likely be able to offer more than an investor because this will be your primary residence and you'll already be getting a lower interest rate on financing. Like, yes, an investor could come in with cash, whatever, but they're going to most likely want that property to cash flow. So I could see your offer being more. You could be able to offer more because you're accounting for your own living expenses with the property. The only hiccup I could see is if you're using a VA loan or FHA loan, the seller not wanting to deal with the inspections that come along with that.
- [06:48]
B
I think the only last thing that I'd add is maybe be a little bit more creative around what house hacking looks like. Like, if your fiance has already said, like, hey, we don't want to share rooms in the house we're living in, that's fine, but. But maybe there are other options aside from a duplex. Can you. Can you find a single family home that maybe has an ADU in the back? Right. And either you guys can live in the main house, or you can live in the ADU and rent out the main house. You know, I don't know if there's like, maybe, you know, finished basements in, you know, in that part of Missouri where again, either you're living upstairs or they're living downstairs. But, but I think there are maybe other ways aside from just it's got to be a duplex that you can still execute on this idea of, of. Of house hacking.
- [07:31]
A
Yeah. Like sometimes you'll see houses listed as an in law suite that actually have a whole separate unit that you could rent that out. And it's usually separate. The utilities probably aren't separate and you would just have to factor that into the rent that you're paying their utilities. But I've seen that so many times where it's listed as an in law suite but it's actually a full blown apartment. Also above garages that's like pretty like standard if somebody does have an instead of like agu's where you're just have an additional dwelling unit on your property, they're usually more like on top of garages that I would say in my area too. Okay, we're going to take a short break, but when we come back we're going to talk about one of the most googled questions in all of real estate investing. Do you actually need an LLC before you buy your first rental? We'll be right back.
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- [11:22]
E
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- [12:04]
A
Okay, welcome back. So we got question two today. This one is from the Biggerpockets forums. I am new to real estate investing and I would like to buy and hold rentals. I am wondering if it is best to set up an llc, get a business account and business credit cards before actually buying a property. I want to keep my personal finances and rental property finances as separate as possible. So I am thinking yes. I currently only own one rental property in Florida. It only became A rental because I moved to California to work. So I decided to keep it. I manage it myself and don't have an LLC set up. Really all I have set up for the property is a separate checking account and a landlord specific home insurance policy. My questions are, should I set up an LLC just for one property and what are the pros and cons? If so, do I set up the LLC in California where I live now, or in Florida where the property is? And if I do set up an llc, is transferring a property from your personal name to the LLC pretty straightforward even with an active mortgage? Hi. These are great questions and yes, very common questions. So the first one I, the first question that she asks is, should you set up an LLC before you actually purchase your property? And I'm going to say no. What about you, Tony?
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Yeah, I would agree with that for sure.
- [13:25]
A
What happens if you don't get an property under contract? You make offers, you make offers. You know, a year goes by or something changes in your life and now you have this llc. I know in California the, the fees are pretty expensive. To have an llc, you have to maintain it. You have to file a tax return for it. So that costs to pay someone to file it. So I would say no, I would wait until you have the property under contract. At least if you want to do an LLC when you go under contract, you can put on your contract. Is that, I can't remember exactly how it's phrased, but it's like you could put as your name Ashley here and, or assigns to, you know, and then later on during the process of being under contract, you can go ahead and fill in your llc. I've done that a ton of times where I use like my Development Co. LLC and then I'll be like, okay, where do I actually want this? Am I doing this with one of my partners or not? Or whatever. And then I'll go and change it into whatever LLC it's going into before we actually close on the property.
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B
Yeah, I agree with that notion, Ash. I think, and I understand why, but I think a lot of people, they put the cart before the horse and they start asking a lot of questions about asset protection and, you know, corporate structure and all these things. And they candidly don't have a lot to protect in that moment now, unless just like in your personal life, you've already amassed a lot of personal wealth. Well then, yeah, definitely, you know, be more diligent upfront. I shouldn't even say more diligent. Be more, I guess, cautious upfront about protecting that. But I think a lot of rookie investors maybe put the cart before the horse. Now one thing I do want to clarify though, is that having an llc, you know, doesn't mean that you can't like the risk of liability goes away, right? Like, like there's still, even with an llc, you know, there's ways to like, you know, pierce the corporate veil is what they call it. So even if you set it up, you start to make sure that you're running it the right way and you're not doing all the right things and the right attorney can help you with. But there are lots of real estate investors who much like this story, right, where they have a personal residence, they move out, they turn into a rental, and it just kind of stays in their personal name. So there, there are other ways to protect yourself aside from just having the LLC as well. And I think that's a piece that maybe a lot of rookie investors don't, don't recognize that there's other forms of liability protection aside from just, just, just having your llc. Now obviously the LLC is, is I think a good option and I, I, I'll, I think I'll just describe those differences really quickly. Right? Like you can have liability protection through your insurance. You can have like entity protection. Like who, who's, who's actually on the, the deed of the property, right? Or how's the property deeded? Who's on title? You, you have like additional, you can have like an umbrella policy, right? Like just additional liability protection for anything that happens to you, right? So those are all like different forms of protection. LLCs and the right, like legal structure are probably the, the most, I won't say airtight, but probably the most concrete in, in trying to protect yourself. But even those, if they're not structured the right way, you can still kind of break through. Insurance is probably like the, the lowest level because, you know, a lot of insurance providers, their, their goal is to reduce the amount of money they spend on paying out claims, right? So it's not, not always the easiest. But like if someone sues you, the insurance is what kind of kicks in to say, hey, hey, here's what happens. I think the goal for the LLC is in the right legal structure is that it prevents a lawsuit from happening. Like if someone goes through all of these things and they see like, man, even if we sue this, this place, like because of how it's set up, we're not going to get a whole heck of a lot. It hopefully just prevents any lawsuit from happening. In the first place? So they, they serve slightly different purposes. But all that to say, does a rookie need to go out and invest $30,000 in legal fees to set up this crazy corporate entity structure where you've got like a, an offshore trust and you know, the trust is, you know, you know, allocating or delegating, you know, responsibilities to this entity? Like probably not, but you can probably start a little bit simpler and still have enough protection to give you peace of mind to sleep at night.
- [17:39]
A
Another kind of difference that you should think about too is financing on your property. So how are you going to purchase, purchase your investment property? Because if you have the LLC set up and you're buying the property in an llc, it is much harder to get conventional residential financing on the property. And if you do like I did it before through a small local bank on the residential side, and it was like 2% higher than what the interest rate would have been if it would have been in my personal name. So you also have different financing options when the property is in your personal name compared to an llc. So also it was addressed that she currently has one property in Florida that's in her personal name. And what would be the process to actually transfer into an LLC while having the mortgage? So first I would look at your mortgage documents and what does it actually say about a loan being assumed or transferring ownership, a change in ownership. And there can be, you know, a clause in there that says that the balance of the loan is due upon sale. So the due on sale clause, and if that's in there, then technically the bank could call the loan due upon the change of ownership. So there's some language in mortgage documents that allows for the change of ownership as long as it is the same membership percentage. I don't know exactly how it's phrase, but. So if you're 100% owner of an LLC and you change it from your personal name 100%, you owns it to an LLC where you're 100% owner will not trigger the due on sale clause. I have read of a ton of people doing it, even though they have a due on sale clause and don't have that written language and nothing ever happening, they continue to make their payments. I've also heard of it the other way. Not as common as if I as I've heard of people getting away with it I guess, but, but I've also heard of people doing it and the bank does call the due on sale clause. So read your mortgage documents, what it says and then if it is, does Trigger your due on sale clause. Make sure you have some kind of strategy plan in place to actually pay that. But I would read your mortgage documents and what you can do is like you could do like a quick claim deed and deed it just into your name quickly without having to do all the title work and everything because it's just being transferred from you to you, which an attorney would do. And it's not a long process at all to have that happen. Okay, we have one more question after the break, and this one is for anyone planning to use a 203k loan to buy a fixer upper. There are some rules you absolutely need to know before you close. And we'll be right back.
- [20:22]
E
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B
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E
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- [23:46]
F
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- [24:41]
B
Our last question today is a great one for anyone thinking about using a 200 3k loans by a duplex and House Hackett, because this loan does have some specific rules that can, you know, maybe trip you up if you're not prepared. So this question also comes from the BiggerPockets forums and it says I'm planning to purchase my very first property next year. It's a duplex and plan to house hack it using a 203k loan. I'm doing tons of research and getting my finances and DTI debt to income ratio in line. I have a few questions I'm hoping to get answered. First, when should I start speaking to an agent? I currently have an apartment lease that is up at the end of of August 2026. This recording is as of April. I'd like to avoid going month to month on this lease. So I'm trying to understand when to start the process with an agent, a lender and a contractor. Second, with a 203k loan, renovations must be completed within six months. I plan to use a limited 203k. This won't be an issue for the side I'll be living in, but how would I renovate the tenant occupied side within those same six months if their leases goes for another 10 months? Logistically, what would you do in this instance? Any guidance on how to plan this out would be greatly appreciated. Ash, have you ever used a 203k loan before?
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A
No, I haven't. I don't think you have, right?
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B
Yeah, no, I haven't either. But, but basically guys like think of the 203k loan as like a renovation loan, right? So it's a government backed loan, kind of like fha, but. But it also gives you the money to, to make certain renovations to your property as well. Now again Ash and I haven't used it so we can't speak from like a firsthand experience about how, you know, about how difficult it is to actually go through that renovation process. But like, like many government type products there, there's usually a lot of hoops you have to jump through. So just first for kind of like table six, I think that's, that's an important piece to know now from, from a timing perspective. You know, you've got what roughly four months when, when your lease ends to, you know, hopefully be able to move out into somewhere. So really you need to be under contract in about three months because that'll give you that, that last 30 days to be going through your escrow and moving out of your apartment. So the first person I would go talk to now is a lender and I would just get a really clear sense on, hey, what am I pre approved for, what kind of budget am I working with? And that'll I think give you better context on what types of properties you should start looking for. And then even though you're still kind of 30 days or three months out from actually wanting to close in that property, I would still start searching today. Like, like, you know, four months. Like, yeah, let's hit the ground, Brandon. Let's go start hunting today. Worst case is that you find something that is an incredible deal and then you move into it or you try and negotiate maybe a slightly longer escrow period or you tell your, your apartment like, hey, can I'm on leaving a month or two early, can I, can I get a break and not break my lease? So like, but I wouldn't worry too much about the timing on the lease. I would start hunting for that deal today because chances are it's going to take you some time regardless to find a duplex that not only meets your criteria as an investor, but also meets whatever criteria you need from the 2 or 3k loan side as well.
- [27:48]
A
And also to like, worse, if you do find a great deal, maybe that leaves extra money on the table for you to maybe pay for your lease an extra month or two while you're, you know, living in your duplex. So like if there is some overlap, you have gotten a great deal and you're not putting as much money into the property and instead you can, you know, pay for your lease extra. But I would definitely start sooner rather than later of first of all building your team, making those connections and then, you know, start putting offers into properties. You know, when you have the funds and you have the pre approval and you're, you're ready to go is don't wait for your, for your lease to end. There was another question in here as to how do I renovate the tenant occupied side within those same six months. So one thing you could do is when you purchase the property is you could put it into the contract that the purchase is contingent on that unit being vacant and going ahead and renovate and having it vacant and renitating both the same time. The second thing that you could do is they stay in that unit and you go to them and say, hey, I'm renovating this other side and when it is done I would like to offer it to you to move into and you'll get this brand new unit. Maybe you're increasing the rent a little bit. Hopefully they would accept that offer, move into that and then you go ahead and start renovation on the other side of it too. So basically you're giving them first dibs at this brand new unit that they can move into and then you can go ahead. And that's a nice strategy because it offsets you having two vacancies at once and not even having to find a tenant for the first finished unit. And then you can move into the second one when it's finished.
- [29:32]
B
And maybe the easiest approach of all is just to find one that's vacant right on both sides. And if you can move into a unit where it's vacant, then that makes the whole kind of musical chairs of renovation a little bit easier. One thing to note though on the the 2 or 3K loan is that, and again, double check this guys. But I believe that you, you must use a licensed contractor for all the work. So you got to make sure again, like we talk about building out your team, that's the other person I'd probably start reaching out to now as well just to make sure that like, hey, not only can you find someone but, but do they have the room in their schedule to actually start when you need them to start? Because if you've got this six month clock on, on when the reservation when the renovations can be completed, if the, the contractor you like is booked out for three months, well now, now you've got 90 days left to finish all those renovations, right? So I think just making sure that you're, you're having those conversations sooner rather than later to make sure the timing works out will be important as well.
- [30:26]
A
And with your bank that you're going through like, especially if this is a small local bank to get this 203k loan is ask them for a list of vendors or contractors that they've already worked with on 200 3K loans because that I did a new construction loan and the bank had to approve my contractor, but he was already on their list of an approved and vetted contractor. So if you can start interviewing and working off of contractors that are already vetted by your bank and approved by them and also ask your loan officer for a recommendation because the contractor left and didn't finish the job, that loan officer is going to know because he probably withheld their last draw, you know, so they're the ones most of the time issuing the draws and making sure that the work is done, hearing back from the inspectors that are inspecting before each draw so you can always ask them for a recommendation too. Well, thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Real Estate Rookie. I'm Ashley, he's Tony, and we'll see you guys on the next episode.
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B
Hey rookies, if you're watching this, we want you to apply to be a guest on the Real Estate Rookie Podcast. That's right. Ashley and I are looking for amazing stories just like yours to be a part of our Real Estate Rookie Podcast. Now look, you don't need to be an expert. You don't need to have done thousands of deals. Even if you've done one deal, your story could help inspire the next listener
- [31:44]
A
as a rookie investor. Especially if you just got your first deal.
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C
It is all fresh in your minds
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A
and you are the best person to tell your story. Give your experience on how you got
- [31:54]
C
it done to help someone else get their first deal.
- [31:56]
B
So head over to biggerpockets.com guest if you want to be a part of our show again, that's biggerpockets.com and we'd love to have you on.
- [32:06]
G
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