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- [00:01]
A
Okay. I'm joined here in regards to an exciting project happening in Panama. Thomas, you, you gave me a little bit of a rundown on what you're doing and sort of how you've divided your life between the city and the country. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself, like who you are, what you do? How did you end up owning land in Panama? And we'll go from there.
- [00:21]
B
Okay. Hi, my name is Thomas. I'm a farmer in the Republic of Panama. It's funny because my first 13 years of farming, I worked in a industrial family farm. We had a large pig concentrated animal feeding operation for pigs. We had rice in a rice mill. We had cattle with a bunch of artificial insemination and in vitro. And you know, we wanted to be good farmers. We wanted to do it right. But, but the advice and the products that we were purchasing weren't, weren't really necessary. Thirteen years into the farming and I sort of started to analyze deeply through, because of economic reasons, how are we going to sustain this farm long term. And a little bit of fitness, a little bit of the paleo diet, a little bit of understanding inflammation led me to discovering agroecology. And it all made sense. You know, by. After our first few lines, it all made sense. So 13 years from now, after 13 years, for the past six, six to seven years, my wife and I have, have restored a old rusted, rundown family farm into a multi species, flourishing and very fertile, a biodynamic, regenerative farm.
- [01:35]
A
Okay. And you're, you were discussing with me a little bit about like your goals for what you want to do with this. And this is sort of how we got connected. So you've kind of turned this into a little bit of like a, almost like a real estate development project where you'd like to allow people to have homes there and become part of like a farming community. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what, what gave you the idea to do that?
- [02:01]
B
It's a mix of reasons and I'll try to get to them briefly. First of all, we live very close. Our farm to the city is about an hour and it's only 45 minutes from our international airport. So we kind of knew the best of both worlds. We, we enjoyed farm and city. We started learning the pros and cons of the city, and we started learning about the pros and challenges of having a farm. And what we decided to do was basically guide and help other neighbors because we were, you know, we were seeking neighbors. We, we want a Community where instead of driving home at the rest at the end of the day, home to the city, we want to drive three minutes to a proper farm village where craftsmanship and, you know, delicate attention to natural products is the name of the day.
- [02:57]
A
Yeah.
- [02:58]
B
So and.
- [02:59]
A
And when. Yeah, you. You currently live a little like, you live in the. You split your time right now between the city and the country. Is that, like, is that what you're doing at the moment?
- [03:09]
B
Yes, for a while, we lived full time at the farm. My kids now, you know, turn teens and they have a few activities and a few friends. So we're kind of spending most nights of the week at the city. But we. We definitely miss. We. We really miss the peace, the. The quiet, the. The. The light. You know, less lighting at night. We. We miss better air. We miss more control of our water. We miss connection to animals. It's. It's sort of like once you've had the best of both worlds, you discover that it's kind of like in your. In the human DNA to have a connection to soil and land. For sure.
- [03:51]
A
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. So, and if somebody wants to, like, take possession of these, like, buy a property, like, what does the title look like? Like, are they leasing the land off of you? Would they build their own house? Like, if I'm an interested purchaser, what would I do? Like, what would that process look like that I would go through with you?
- [04:08]
B
Okay, we have. We have lots available now. It is a gated community, so we do have a homeowners association, but most of the rules are regular Panama local condominium rules is.
- [04:24]
A
Sorry to interrupt you. Is a gated community, like, is that typically something that's. That's needed in Panama? Like, is there petty crime or like, is it, like, no concern?
- [04:34]
B
No, gated community is a. We have it here a lot because apartment buildings, which are very common in the city, all have a homeowners association. And you have security, which, you know, kind of like in Latin America, you have. Anyway, you have custodians, you have people who take care of the common areas. You have an administrator that, you know, pays for the painting of the building and pays for cleaning. So. So they kind of take a few things off your plate when you live in the building.
- [05:06]
A
Yeah.
- [05:07]
B
So that has translated into most of the suburbs. Most of the suburbs have a gate where, you know, people need to announce themselves and it's some sort of way to keep in control. So we want to blend the positives of Panama City with a rural living. We have collected over the years since at our farm. Currently we also have agritourism. We have met, you know, hundreds of people who have mentioned like, oh, someday I'd like to be a farmer often as well. One time I bought a farm and my challenges were this, this and this, or I'm thinking about buying a farm and my challenge had to do with, with the titling or, you know, there's. There's a hundred reasons why, why having a farm is not as simple to begin to get a head start. There's a. There's a steep learning curve. There's some, you know, there's property deeds and there's oversight and we are aware of these and we on making them easier on the buyer.
- [06:06]
A
And so are you going to like subdivide the properties and people will be given an actual title of a piece of land or is it like more a cargo structure?
- [06:14]
B
No, no, correct. It is a private property. It is a group of private farms. We share security and we share administration. But each land is an individual investment. Each family or multifamily lot can develop as needed according to, you know, some density guidelines. But they are each private property. If you would like to have a few hectares of cacao, for example, and I want to have a few hectares of coconut, and our next door neighbor wants to have chickens and maybe sheep and somebody else has mangoes and somebody else just likes fermentation, that's exactly what we are encouraging and enabling. We are encouraging a sort of barter community, but it is not in the books nor is it mandatory. We are a group of private farms. These are private investments.
- [07:04]
A
Very cool. I noticed that a couple of the units were sold on the site. Like, if it's not too much like information to disclose, who are the people who are interested in this like that you're hearing about? I know you gave me a couple of stories like somebody who'd tried a farm before, maybe they wanted to. Who do you find that's being attracted to this idea and wants to purchase one of these from you?
- [07:23]
B
Well, the tropics are an abundant region of the world.
- [07:27]
A
Yeah.
- [07:28]
B
We will be probably the last ones to face water scarcity. There is fertility Panama and our area, Chepo, is very close to the Mesoamerican corridor. So we've received a little bit of interest from several places. We have interest from Australia, a few, A few people in Europe, a few people in Canada as well. The locals because, because of the internationals, we've heard you know many different family paths, but the locals are mostly, you Know, like lawyers or dentists or doctors who, who, who are working hard and they do live the city life, but they do tell us like, you know, someday soon, as soon as I manage to have enough money, I want to move. We just want to make sure that we can use what we've learned and make it easier from everyone because we want to share an agroecological living with more people who want to more or less have the same lifestyle and conversation.
- [08:18]
A
Yeah. What seems to be like, the reason for more like Latin America and even Panama specifically? Like, I know that there's one of the things we've had a lot of people talk about on, on this podcast is that there's, you know, obviously tax benefits and tax implications for people moving residency to Panama. But I think like during the pandemic, we saw a lot of people move from the US And Canada specifically to Panama because, and it wasn't just tax, some of it was obviously from like, you know, reduce your income tax for digital nomads and stuff like that. But is there, is there something else there, like culturally or like, what, what's the big attraction to Panama as a, as a place to, for capital to go?
- [08:59]
B
Well, Panama is a very safe jurisdiction for private property. You easily get deeds and they are respected as many Latin American countries. Corruption is a factor that's everywhere, including the first world.
- [09:13]
A
But yeah, I think it's, I think it's like worse in, in the US And Canada, we just pretend that we have rules. Right. Like, whereas I think other places, it's kind of like they accept that it's, it's been there, right?
- [09:25]
B
Yes, yes. No, over here everything is very, very, very clean and safe. In terms of property rights, Panama has a, a very good incentive for a second residency. So that might be a one of the main reasons why people have relocated to Panama so much. I, you know, there's, there's different categories, but upwards of 200,000, you can get, you can get our equivalent of a green card, let's say. So you can, you can call it, call it a residency and have another.
- [09:56]
A
Another place, you know, and the, like, it's pretty developed there, right? Like, it's not like a lot of the places in, in maybe Mexico or like Costa Rica where like Panama City is like a, it's like a massive, like metropolitan area. Correct.
- [10:11]
B
Panama City is almost like Miami. Yeah, Panama City is Miami. There's high rises everywhere. There's, you know, fancy, fast life and many people. For example, there's, there's a port in our website of Beekeepers, they're Swiss. They moved to Panama to retire. They enjoyed the restaurants, they enjoyed the spas. They, they enjoyed that type of living in the city. But after a few months of, of doing that and, and kind of enjoying it, they're like, we need a connection to land. So they came to our farm, our sister Legavera sister farm, which is Kokira soil project, and they, they now rent a piece of land, a parcel, and they have bees and, you know, they have a. They have a more complete life because they were missing that connection that they had before. So retirement for them was not complete until they could, you know, do a little bit more than just leisure.
- [11:01]
A
And from an industry perspective, like in Panama, what, what is it that drives the large metropolitan economy of Panama City? Is it, is it the Panama Canal? Like shipping? Like what. What are the big industries there?
- [11:13]
B
Yeah, there's a lot of logistics because of the Panama Canal. Many containers, you know, change route here. We also have a lot of. We also have the regional headquarters of many, you know, large corporations. Procter and Gamble is a notable one, for example. So any big company, caterpillar, such like that, they, they choose Panama because of the jurisdiction, because of the dollar. We use the American dollar. And also because. I was going to say one last more and it just.
- [11:44]
A
That's all right.
- [11:45]
B
I'll come back to it.
- [11:46]
A
If you remember. Yeah, yeah. If you remember, we can, we can always circle back and then, like, I guess when you compare it to Miami, is it like, it's right on the water? Obviously, it's on the ocean. There's beaches right there. Like, so you obviously have a lot of tourism culture, a lot of people coming down during the winter, I'm sure snowbirds from all over the world.
- [12:02]
B
Yes.
- [12:04]
A
Yeah.
- [12:04]
B
Yes.
- [12:04]
A
So. And do you feel like you're like, would your project, like, try and capitalize on tourism or is it more for people who want to live there and kind of like become a part of, like an immersed part of the community? Like, what, what would be your objective there?
- [12:21]
B
No, the. This project aims to create a community. If we are primarily looking for people who want to relocate, you know, some of those people who are already relocating to Central America, matching that with many people who are already moving out more than to the suburbs, moving to the country. So we are blending those two interests, and we aim for people to, you know, live here as most months as possible. But we do have a farming concierge at the project, which aims to give services, give some sort of an eye, help you keep control of Your farm while you're not in the country. So we, we basically think that land, soil, and food security should be a priority when it comes to investments in a family portfolio or when planning family legacy. We think there's many, many goods that we've learned to admire as luxury. But now land should take priority. Having access to land, having your family later on in the future have access to land.
- [13:28]
A
Yeah, yeah, I would agree. When people buy real estate in Panama, like, what does the process look like by comparison to other countries where you have experience? Like, do you. Somebody wants to buy a piece of land typically, or a house, would they contract a buyer agent or would they go directly to the realtor? Like, how does that whole system work? And maybe take me through like from start to finish what a real estate deal would look like there.
- [13:50]
B
Okay. No, you go directly to a realtor here in Panama. The realtor already has a big concept of the project. He will give you all the information about it. If you decide to separate a lot. Usually separation is between 5,000 and $10,000, depending on the project. You usually get, you know, one or two months to change your mind. Then after two months, you probably have to put between 10% to 20% of the total price. And when the actual deed gets transferred to you, you put the rest of the 80%. That's usually how it goes. The real estate agent should walk you through and should take you by the hand to lawyers if you are looking for residency, to the banks to help a foreigner establish their bank accounts. So the real estate agent should, should do everything for you.
- [14:46]
A
Okay, awesome. And then what about the lending environment? Like, do you offer mortgages on your property? Do. Are there banks who will offer mortgages on, on properties there? Like, how would, if I wanted to buy a property? Because I know in like in the US and Canada, a lot of people use leverage, right? So they'll put like maybe 20% down payment and then they'll want to take the rest as mortgage. Is that, does that exist in, in, in Panama?
- [15:07]
B
Yeah, no, no, totally, totally. The whole banking system is fueling real estate all the time. So yeah, it is, it is, it is very common to, to get a mortgage and not, you know, most building or house purchases are not cash.
- [15:23]
A
Okay, fair enough, fair enough. What would the typical, like mortgage size be? And then who are the lenders there? Like, is it a local bank? Or like, how does that system work? And what would I do? I go to the bank and just ask, like, to do a mortgage application?
- [15:37]
B
Yes, yes. Local banks, local banks. There's there's Banco General, there's Banismo, there's a few, you know, there's five common classic ones and then there's another 15 that already have a good reputation across the region. And we have maybe H. HSBC and we have Citibank and you know, we have, we have offices for every major bank that, you know, the U.S. canada or Europe has been. That's why Panamas, that's why it's full of, full of expats and people relocating.
- [16:05]
A
Well, I feel like that gives it a huge competitive advantage against like a lot of Americans and Canadians buying property in Mexico where they can't get a mortgage at all. They have to buy it cash, right?
- [16:14]
B
Yes.
- [16:14]
A
And that's a huge, huge issue. Yeah.
- [16:16]
B
Yes. In Panama. Panama is a lot more, more, you know, stable when you consider everything, you know, when you consider all the factors. Panama's at almost there. And I remembered what I forgot last time we. One of the reasons why Panama is so attractive is because we are the major airport hub for the rest of South America. So most of the people from South America will be stopping through Panama. We have direct flights to Istanbul and Madrid and you know, we have direct flights everywhere. So that's, that's another plus for Panama.
- [16:50]
A
Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's sort of like similar to Atlanta in the US where they have the largest regional airport for international flights. And it's, I think it's the busiest airport of the busiest airports in the world. And you know, it just, there's spillover. Right. You have tons of employees, you have a lot of people who take layovers, maybe one or two days or whatever. So. Makes sense.
- [17:10]
B
Okay. Yes. And you know, there's a lot of tourism too. You know, people stop for a day or two, like you were saying.
- [17:16]
A
Yeah.
- [17:17]
B
One thing that, that makes our farm different, it's, it's not a, it's not an eco village where, where maybe you know, you live in a community in a small lot and you know, once in a while you, you get shared like what gets produced in the farm. These are a group of private farms. Like the average farm is 12 acres. The idea is for you and your family to have your own 12 acre project, be it, you know, pasture raised chickens with a combination of another crop. And because we're trying to take away the guesswork and because we're trying to take away the learning curve and the expense. For example, if you own lot number 13 and you have a tree that falls in your driveway and you don't own a Chainsaw. Nor do you want to buy a chainsaw. At least not today or this month. You call concierge services and you know, they'll tell you the rate and they'll say chainsaw is the chainsaw and the guy is, you know, 40 bucks an hour. And you'll. Somebody will come to your door, they'll clean away the stump, put it wherever you say, and. And that's it. So, you know, if you suddenly, if your granddaughter buys a horse and has it there and you have no idea how to tend to a horse.
- [18:31]
A
Yeah.
- [18:31]
B
The concierge services will have a veterinary available that can come very cool. You know, once in a while or as much as you need to.
- [18:39]
A
So interesting.
- [18:40]
B
We will lend a helping hand because we want more farmers with us, of course.
- [18:45]
A
Very cool. I guess the last question I have would be price. Like what it, what does one of these things cost? Right? Like what does it cost to buy one of these pieces of land and, and then build a house and all.
- [18:55]
B
Okay. The, the average 300. The, the average 5 hectare which is 12 acre farm is a 318,000. Let me. I'm sorry, can you cut that out later? Yeah. I try to open the chart and it made it worse. Between the acres. Okay. An average farm is 70,000. An average 12 acre farm is 370,000. And we will require at least one home, which, the smallest is the gatehouse and that goes for 100,000.
- [19:36]
A
Okay.
- [19:38]
B
The new neighbor has the option of taking the gatehouse or taking any of the additional models that we will offer. They will increase in luxury and space, but we are not going to make it drastic. We also waive the construction requirement in case somebody wants to do a custom home.
- [20:00]
A
Okay, awesome. I think that's everything I got other than, you know, if people are interested in the project, where should they find you? And I guess if there's. Is there anything that you feel like I've missed that you wanted to include.
- [20:11]
B
Well, they should. They can find us@legavera.com we want to make farming the luxury it is. We believe that leisure and, you know, just being idle is not part of what a growth and retirement should look like. We believe in aging very fit. We believe in being able and being vigorous and being engaged. And that's what we have discovered for ourselves that farms accomplish in your life. There's a lot of meaning at the end of the day when you're tending to some sort of crops or some sort of animals. And we want to share that possibility. Many people enjoy benefits of their daily life but they do not have access to soil and farms the environment. So we are helping others have that same luxury that we have. Understood?
- [21:00]
A
Yeah. Okay. Amazing. Well, thank you very much for your time. I really appreciate it. Very, very exciting project that you're working on. I totally agree with all the principles that you just discussed. Like I completely resonates with with my thoughts on what it means to be human personally as well. I hope that the viewers feel the same. I'll put the links in in the show notes to your website and all of those things and I'll let you know as soon as this goes live. Thanks a lot. And hopefully we can continue the conversation, maybe check in on you every, every, you know, couple of quarters to talk about what's going on in real estate in Panama.
- [21:31]
B
Thank you. Yes, I appreciate the call. And yes, land is the best investment. So for sure go for acres. Let's go for acres.