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- [00:01]
A
Welcome back to Real Estate Without Borders. Today we're going to be talking about different visa types around the world and how to move money in a sensible way and get citizenship. And we're going to be talking to an expert, a good friend of mine, a client of mine. We've done deals together and, you know, fellow Canadian, although you're more of a globetrotter now, I suppose. Okay. Can you give me a little bit of an introduction of who you are, what you do, your background, and what your company is now?
- [00:29]
B
Yeah. Thanks, Dan. Good to be with you on your show. Like Dan said, Dan's a dear friend. So many deals together. I live in Toronto. Serial entrepreneur. Built and sold to two tech companies. Prior to that, I used to be an investment banker with Ernst and Young. Raised about a billion dollars of capital. Then I moved to Canada in 2018. I'm a Canadian citizen. I have a Dubai golden visa. I have a US EB5. So kind of. I'm kind of diversified that way in terms of citizenship and residencies. So post my. After I sold two tech companies and I moved to Canada, a lot of founders were asking me, how do you move? What's the best way to optimize for taxes? Where do you park your capital? And bunch of things. Right. So that was largely unsolved. So we thought there was a good gap to fill, and that's why we started Goldwater. So Goldwater is a global mobility platform. We help in the mobility of families, assets and businesses. Think of mobility in three parts. So when you want to move yourself and your family, that's number one. Second is mobility of assets. If you want to invest across the globe, that's the second part. Third is move your businesses. Right. How do you set up a company in US how do you set up a company in Canada? How do you optimize for taxes? If you were to do an IPO in US how do you do that? If you want to do an IPO in India, how do you do that? So. So that's the global mobility of business part.
- [01:56]
C
Right.
- [01:57]
B
So. And we believe one is one without the other is incomplete. Right. So without mobility of capital, mobility of business not good. With the mobility of families, without mobility of assets, not good. So we wanted to build this as a tripod, building this for last one year. Amazing success. The kind of people we were working with is phenomenal. Some of the CXOs of India, some of CXOs in Canada. So we have been fortunate to work with amazing people. Right. So happy to chat more about it as we talk.
- [02:29]
A
Yeah, I guess what seems to be like the big pain point for people. Like, you know, and, and the show's like, we're. Nothing's off the table. Like, so talk to me a little bit about why it feels like right now we've seen basically, like, more people than ever wanting to explore citizenship or investment in other economies. And like, is it, is it a. Is it the political divide that's happening? Is there like an east west divide happening in, like, the way that the rules are in one part of the world versus the other part of the world? Like, why are people feeling motivated to, you know, diversify the countries in which they hold their capital? What seems to be like, any trends that stand out to you right now?
- [03:12]
B
So there are a different. Is not a homogeneous set of people, right? There's Asians and there's Americans and there's Europeans. So let's talk about these three groups of people, right? Asians, largely Indian, Chinese. They were always moving, right? Indians were moving for last 30 years to us and some to Europe and Canada as well. And Chinese as well, right? Largely H and P. That's the best route for Indians to build a life for themselves in US right? Go there as a student, get their masters done, Then get their OPT H&B green card citizenship. That's a typical track for Indians. But what's happened in India with last one decade, last 10 years, is this enormous wealth creation which has happened, right? So because of this, Indians have the capital to invest for residencies and citizenships abroad, right? And there's absolutely the quality of life in India. There's a funny way people talk about it, right? India is great once you leave India. So every Indian wants to have the. And it's most. It's a philosophical as well, right? So when you live in a gated community in India, then you're leaving the concept of India. It's a nice gated community. You feel like you're living in Singapore. And similarly, they want to get out of India, get their passports for the kids, get the residency for themselves so that they don't have to deal with all the bullshit paperwork and visas. So if you want to go to Europe, they. You have to least print out 500 pages of paper, right, Just to get, you know, a tourist visa. So Indians have the money now they're saying, you know what, I'm done with this. I'm going to buy residencies. And abroad, right? That's one class. Second is Americans and Canadians, right? Obviously they want to diversify. They don't Want to put. Most of a lot of our customers are from Canada and U.S. and you might think, oh, you know what, U.S. is the land. But they are moving to, they're looking to move abroad, right. They want to set up their base in Dubai to not be fully tied to US Economy. Irs, they want to keep their money away from irs. I mean not illegit money. I'm just saying they want to keep money outside US jurisdictions. Similarly in Canada as well. Right. So Dubai is one of the most favorite sought after destination for Americans and Canadians. And now we're also seeing progress in getting from Americans to get the golden visa in Portugal and Greece. So that's the second class of migrations. And Europeans. And Europeans is even more interesting because with what the taxes are in Europe, it's just impossible to do any business in Europe. Taxes, healthcare and the migration from, you know what's happened there. So people are feeling unsafe. So a lot of wealthy Europeans, right, are moving to Europe. They're giving up their passports, they're moving to US, moving to Europe, moving to Dubai. So that's happening with the Europeans. They are either moving to, they're leaving Europe altogether. They don't want to get in the tax bullshit and they want to get to Dubai and some of the tax tax havens, right? So that's the three class of mobilities, right? Indians, they're doing it to get their plan B. They have the capital. That's, that's one class of mobility. Second is Americans and Canadians. Third is the Europeans. So this is a large, this accounts for about 90% mobility across the globe.
- [06:36]
A
So let's talk a little bit about the destinations then. Like what is attractive about a place like Dubai as an example? And feel free to dive into any of the other ones. But why are like I think most of the, most of the people that you're seeing come through your organization are going to do Dubai. Correct.
- [06:50]
B
So Dubai is, I believe it's got the potential to be the Liechtenstein of Asia.
- [06:58]
C
Right?
- [06:58]
B
Liechtenstein or Switzerland of Asia. Apart from the horrible weather, in terms of secrecy, in terms of ability to keep the cash safely, you can put foundation structures beneath it, you can have trust structures, etc. That gives enormous ability for somebody to keep the capital safe. And the taxation is super. There's no capital gains, there's no property taxes. So it's. And the cap rates in Dubai, real estate has been on a tear, right. Real estate has gone up like 3x since COVID Right. It's one of the best performing listed markets in the Globe.
- [07:33]
C
Right.
- [07:33]
B
And the property rights for owners are phenomenal. Unlike what you see in a blue state in US or Europe or Canada. The property rights for owners are phenomenal. They can evict the tenant whenever they want to. You get debt there. So Dubai has got everything what you would want. The only knit one says, oh, you know what? The, the, the, the legal system is not as robust as what you would see in the US. Somebody could take away the assets at the whims and fast fancies, et cetera. But that's for the edge case. For 99.9% case. Our recommended option is to have a subsidiary set up in Dubai, which, that, that's 90% of business for Dubai.
- [08:14]
C
Right.
- [08:14]
B
Dubai gets you a business visa. Come test your. Or see how you like. You don't have to buy the golden visa right away, see how you like it and then if you like it for six months, then buy a golden visa. So that's, that's, that's the usual trend.
- [08:26]
A
Interesting. We, we've had a couple of experts on the show here from like Portugal as an example and talk about their like, real estate market and affordability becoming a big issue for locals. And they've kind of rolled back the golden visa a little bit and stuff. Does it seem like Dubai is gonna do anything similar to that? Or, or are they so capable of building and keeping up with the demand that it hasn't really become a problem?
- [08:49]
B
Dubai with Emaar, you can still get a good property in Emaar. Emaar is one of the largest in Dubai owned by the government. Right? So it's a quasi government. You can still get a good property, 300 a square feet, so it's not all that expensive. It's not priced out for an Indian. Right. There's a joke, right? Dubai is the best Indian city, right? So it's four hours from India. You get the domestic help, you get the health care. There's no waiting, bullshit waiting. Like Canada. So it's got the best of everything, right. And the only issue is, unlike Portugal, because we do Portugal as well. Right. So unlike Portugal, Dubai does not have the ability to get you a citizenship, Right. You can never be an Emirati citizen. You always are going to be a, a Dubai primary, you know, a permanent resident. So that's the only net.
- [09:47]
A
But that doesn't, that doesn't really change what you can do, right? Like there's nothing. Yeah. Doesn't impact that.
- [09:53]
B
A lot of people want stability. They want to have their.
- [09:57]
A
Okay. Interesting.
- [09:58]
B
Especially Indians. Not for some, it doesn't Change for somebody like you. But for Indians, they want a better passport.
- [10:06]
A
Yeah, fair enough. What's the big reason? Like, I guess Indians want a bit better passport to. So to travel better or like, what's the, what's the primary motivation for wanting a, A better passport elsewhere?
- [10:18]
B
Yeah, like outside of better, you don't have to go through the bullshit of applying for, like I said, finder pages, of printing out papers for getting a tourist visa.
- [10:28]
A
So travel better just to travel somewhere. Okay, fair enough.
- [10:33]
B
So. So that way. So that way, if you want to travel, Dubai doesn't offer you that freedom. But there are other countries, like Latvia, for example. I'll pull you right? There's other countries, Latvia, for example, you can get a euro travel card, Euro residency card. That way you can travel to Europe also. Europe. Still, it, it has issue with American travel, but yeah, it cannot have it all.
- [10:57]
A
Yeah, interesting. And then what about demand for like visas in the US Because I know you mentioned you do a lot of EB5. I think it says it right on your website like that. I imagine where, where are most of your customers coming from who want to immigrate to the US and get an EB5?
- [11:13]
B
There's. So we are a firm for global Indians, but that's by design. But what's happening is given the work we've done, so a lot of Canadians are also talking to us. We do a lot of work with Canadian Indian Canadians.
- [11:26]
C
Right?
- [11:27]
B
But the Canadians, right, were born there. They're looking at EB5 as well. So if you're a Canadian, you have like two, three choices to options to go to your US and work.
- [11:37]
C
Right?
- [11:37]
B
One is a TN visa. That's like a perpetual work visa. There's no path to a green card.
- [11:43]
C
Right?
- [11:44]
B
So 101 US visa, every visa needs to meet at what is called E visas to have a path to a green card. So TN Visa needs to meet at an E Visa to have a path to a green card TN visa. Even if you stay in US in TN visa for 30 years, it still doesn't grant you the residence, citizenship, residency, even a green card, right? And now they've become so anal about it. If you go to. I've seen a lot of our. I've heard a lot of horror stories where customers, not our customers, but you know, horror stories about people walking up to the border and the border offices rejecting the TN visa, right? So that's gone, right? It's not. It was so lax, but because of NAFTA, that's gone. There's E2 visa, which allows you to invest about 100k, but you have to work in your own business. There's nothing like you cannot work for somebody else. If you want a job at Meta and pull out a $100 million offer, you can't do that in an E2 visa. You have to work for yourself.
- [12:47]
A
Yeah.
- [12:49]
B
So that leaves the only legit option for somebody to get a green card in US is EB5. And the amount of people who can do a good job at EB5 advisor in helping in terms of project selection is very minimal. Right. So our job is to. So we are a firm of financial advisors, we have a great team of credit underwriters, CFAs, FM. So our job is to help investors invest in a good EB5 project which helps them get the green card in time and more importantly get the capital back quickly because that's what we do as a firm.
- [13:26]
A
So, and give me an example, like what, what is a good EB5 project?
- [13:31]
B
Sure. And your lay 2 is better because mostly EB5 is like a real estate led investment. Right. So because what EB5 does in a nutshell is you have to invest $800,000 and it has to create 10 full time jobs for two years. And once you create 10 full time jobs, you are deemed to have met the conditions to remove the conditions and then you get a conditional, then you get a permanent green card. So that's the crux of EB5. Right. So the journey takes anywhere between two to four years depending on your. Depending on whether you're investing in a rural, urban, etc. So that's how the EB5 works.
- [14:11]
C
Right.
- [14:11]
B
So what happens in EB5 is let's say somebody wants to build a project in Toronto. Let's say somebody wants to build a hotel in Toronto. Right. Hundred million dollar project. There is senior secured $70 million, there's equity of $20 million. So EB Fight is like a Mez Capital, which is like $10 million against the $10 million. Let's say there are about 12 investors, each investor putting $800,000.
- [14:38]
C
Right.
- [14:38]
B
So you have to create 120 full time jobs for two years building the hotel.
- [14:44]
C
Right.
- [14:45]
B
Jobs need not be direct, not just be direct jobs, it can be direct indirect induced jobs. Why underwriting is important is you have to make sure the developer is able to build the hotel in time. Right. They don't build a hotel. If they don't go belly up, they're able to return the capital, then you're good. There are A lot of cases where developers went belly up and misses a lot of capital and they lost a green card.
- [15:10]
A
And do you have to be like the sponsor of the deal or like the GP to qualify or like. Or could a co, GP or LP arrangement work? What are the terms and conditions around that?
- [15:24]
B
So EB5, you can do two ways. One is a direct and indirect.
- [15:28]
C
Right.
- [15:29]
B
You can be the gp, build your own business. That's a direct way.
- [15:33]
C
Right.
- [15:34]
B
Indirect way is you invest in what is called as a regional center. Regional center LED investments, where you can. So regional center is a guy who collects. It's a layer on top who collects a $10 million and lends it to the developer at like 10%. And they keep the money for five years. They earn the float for about five years. They make about 50% IRR on your $800,000 investments.
- [15:57]
C
Right.
- [15:59]
B
You need not necessarily do the hard work of doing putting together jobs, etc. You can invest in regional center and they're going to create jobs for you.
- [16:06]
A
Interesting. And then. And does that seem to be the Most common? Like EB5 seems to be the most common way that people are trying to do this. But that's like for a higher net worth individual. Right. Like that would be more someone who has a lot of money that wants to like what would be sort of the net worth cutoff for somebody who would be capable of achieving that?
- [16:22]
B
Yeah, somebody should be able to invest $800,000 at risk for five years. So think of it like a net worth should be at least 3 to 4 million dollars to put together that kind of capital.
- [16:31]
A
Got it. Okay. Okay, Interesting. And for people who don't have that kind of net worth or risk tolerance, like what are there other options?
- [16:41]
B
There is E2 visa. You had to invest $100,000 $200,000 available only for Canadians. Canadians passport holders.
- [16:51]
C
Right.
- [16:53]
B
The only flip side is you cannot work in any other company. You have to work in your own company. And there's TN Visa, which is the terms of far more lakhs than E2. But again, it doesn't give you a path to green card. And there's an exceptionally talented O1 visa as well. But for Canadians between E2 and TN, that gives you the buffer, that gives you enough pathways to go to us.
- [17:20]
A
Interesting. Okay, so if you have a Canadian with like moderate net worth, you would typically advise them to go E2 rather.
- [17:27]
B
Than E. But for I, you had to work in your own company, you cannot work for somebody else in E2.
- [17:34]
A
Right. Okay.
- [17:35]
B
And your spouse has an open work, the spouse has an open work permit, but in TN spouse does not have an open work permit. So you'll have to get something for her as well.
- [17:48]
A
So, okay, like let's just use me as an example. So I have a education business in Canada that teaches people how to do multiplex projects in the Canadian market. We've been slowly scaling it into US Markets because multiplexes are pretty big prospect. US is really starting to adopt missing middle style policy. You know, cities like Nashville, a lot of the east coast and west coast, like a lot of your coastal cities that are a little bit more blue, I would say are, are pushing towards this kind of style of housing. And so we've been slowly trying to figure out how to move this business to a US market. Not just like setting aside the, the residency and and visa stuff, you know, just running. It could be a Canadian business running in the US Would I have to take that business and move the business entirely to the US and start collecting all of my funds from Canadian operations through a US entity? So then like, what are the mech doing that? Like explain to me I have a Canadian corporation that does this, takes the funds in. How do I, how do I go about that process if I'm a Canadian who actually wants to do this? Because like, that would be an outcome that I would love. So like you can just, you know, provide me the, the. I'm. I'm just using this podcast to steal some free advice.
- [18:54]
B
Sure. So E2, basically, you set up a Canadian company, you set up a U.S. company.
- [19:02]
C
Right.
- [19:03]
B
And tell that you're going to tell. You should write a business plan for USCS to tell them how you're going to invest with $200,000.
- [19:09]
C
Right.
- [19:11]
B
They say substantial investments. So in our experience we see $200,000 is substantial enough.
- [19:19]
C
Right.
- [19:20]
B
So you don't have to invest it right away. You can show them a business plan to write. You can invest, you can invest on the process investing. You don't have to invest it right away. You can show a business plan and how your business could possibly create jobs in US you don't have to do it right away again.
- [19:36]
C
Right.
- [19:36]
B
So you have to put together entire business plan, the structure, etc. So you will see in Instagram, hey, I'm going to buy you Airbnbs in US invest through E2 visa.
- [19:50]
C
Right.
- [19:51]
B
So you'll see a lot of influencers peddling that. Well, it's, I'm not sure how that is legal. I mean, you're investing to somebody else. It's a gray Area. So we don't want to get there. But for you, right, you set up the entire corporation. U.S. built the plan B, built the business. The USA is that you're going to help the U.S. economy.
- [20:09]
C
Right.
- [20:11]
B
Then you would get a visa at least for the first two years. And extendable infinitely.
- [20:16]
C
Right.
- [20:16]
B
You can keep on extending it. And the only issue is you cannot work for somebody else. But if you're doing your own business, E2 is absolutely doable. Happy to help. I know you're ready.
- [20:27]
A
Okay. Awesome.
- [20:28]
B
But you love business. You do well in EB5. That's real estate. That's up your alley.
- [20:35]
A
I just don't know if I have the money yet. So that's. That's the problem.
- [20:38]
B
No, I'm not saying you should not. I'm not asking to invest. You should be like in an EB5 project.
- [20:43]
A
Got it? Yeah. Yeah. Fair and so. But I could, I could become part of an EB5 project and it would allow me to get an EB5 visa even if I wasn't the one putting in the $800,000. Like how would that, how would that work?
- [20:54]
B
No, that's not going to get you. That's not going to get to the citizenship. You can't be a part. You cannot be a part of the project without investing. I'm just saying you can be the GP of the project.
- [21:07]
A
So I would. GP deals for somebody who wants to find an EB5 project in the U.S. got it? Yeah. I mean I could do that for sure. Sign me up. Let me know when you have somebody. I think we would be capable of executing on that. No problem.
- [21:20]
B
We'll let you know. Let you know.
- [21:23]
A
Yeah. Is there anything else that you wanted to chat about? Any like key things that you think that people need to know, Tips or tricks like stuff that if somebody's thinking about exploring citizenship in another country, advice that you would give them before we wrap up here.
- [21:35]
B
Yeah, I think for Canadians especially the way. And I know you, a lot of your listeners. Viewers are from Canada. I think EB flies the most especially in. In US salaries. It was double of Canada taxes, almost half. Right. So you get your take home by at least 4x by going to US from Canada. Right. So absolutely it's a no brainer for young Canadians who can afford or I mean even the. So most of our customers are parents who are spending for the kids.
- [22:08]
C
Right.
- [22:09]
B
And the other thing what I want to say is we have a credit program for EB5. That's something which is interesting. So not everyone has $18,000. So we have a credit program where we give you EB5 loan up to $400,000.
- [22:24]
C
Right.
- [22:25]
B
So you can start EB5 journey with just $400,000.
- [22:30]
C
Right.
- [22:31]
B
So that's super attractive for a young Canadian, especially if they can get something from the parents and put something from their own money. They can break even in a matter of one or two years.
- [22:42]
C
Right.
- [22:43]
B
So that's something a lot of Canadians should consider.
- [22:46]
C
Right.
- [22:47]
B
Young Canadians who are, you know, who are working in a tax field especially. I think they should consider EB5 as an option for the businessman in Canada. I think it's absolutely no brainer for them to have a Dubai golden visa.
- [23:03]
C
Right.
- [23:04]
B
It's tax efficient. They can park the capital. Especially with the way Canadian capital gains tax at 50% is. It's absolutely important for them to have a Canadian structure. Sure, Canada has something with Bermuda, etc. But Dubai is the incoming hub. It's what Switzerland used to be many years back. Definitely makes sense to have a Dubai subsidiary. Dubai business visa. Eventually a Dubai golden Visa.
- [23:33]
C
Right.
- [23:34]
B
We're happy to help them whenever they want to. Right. So our details are there. Happy to help them to set up the Dubai entity. And we're probably one of the largest platform for Indians to Dubai. And by extension we are happy to help a lot of people from Canada to do Dubai as well. Right. So these are two things which I think every Canadian should consider. The third is investing. Right. So we are global mobility of assets as well. Third is investing. I think in Canada, if you take out Shopify, if you take out Fairfax and a bunch of mining companies, there's not a lot of invest in Canada.
- [24:16]
C
Right.
- [24:16]
B
I think everyone should diversify. India is a very good market for you to get exposure.
- [24:22]
C
Right.
- [24:23]
B
We have a dedicated India practice for somebody to invest in India offers. India is one of the largest market next to us to give that kind of returns in dollar terms, it has performed on par with nasdaq dollar adjusted.
- [24:37]
C
Right.
- [24:38]
B
So I think everybody should consider India as an asset class. And when I say asset class, they're not talking about investments and privates.
- [24:49]
C
Right.
- [24:49]
B
These are good, high quality mutual funds. Best corporate governance. Your money is safe, secure from a corporate governance perspective.
- [24:59]
C
Right.
- [24:59]
B
So that's something every Canadian should consider. Diversify the assets.
- [25:04]
A
Amazing. Okay, thanks man. I really appreciate your time. Where can people find you if they want to find your company or connect with you to discuss any of the things that you've chatted about on the show?
- [25:17]
B
We're at Goldwater Global. G O L D W A T E R Global. You can fill a form and one of our team will get in touch with you within 24 hours. And happy to.
- [25:28]
A
Okay. Amazing.
- [25:29]
B
And we can do a roadshow once we're in Toronto. I'll be in Toronto in couple of weeks, so we should meet up and do a roadshow with your customers.
- [25:35]
A
Yeah. How long you in Toronto for? Because we have an event in October coming up for AI meets Real estate. I'd love to have you as one of the panelists.
- [25:42]
B
When is it?
- [25:44]
A
I'll get you an exact date, but it'll be in October. Towards the end of October. Perfect. 100% cool, man. Okay. Thanks a lot, brother. Take care, man. Yeah, likewise.