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- [00:01]
Daniel
All right, welcome back to another episode of Real Estate Without Borders. I'm joined here, as always, well, sometimes by the, the wonderful Dave Hutchinson, but we also have a guest here I'm really excited to hear from. Can you, before Dave gets in here, can you give us a little bit of an introduction of who you are, what you do, and, and what we're gonna, gonna talk about today. What you're hoping to chat about today?
- [00:22]
Basil Moore
Yeah, sure, sure. So. So my name is Basil Moore. I oversee the Americas for Handling Partners. Henley Partners is the global leader in residence and citizenship by investment. So we have a huge network, 60 offices around the world, advising wealthy and ultra wealthy families on alternative residency and citizenship solutions. So we have over 50 programs in the world that we advise on and we also track a bunch of data. I think you, you mentioned us in a previous report, right, Daniel?
- [00:48]
Daniel
Yeah, yeah, we did. We did a full episode on your. I have it here. It's the wealthiest Cities index for 20, 25. And, and yeah, so we, we covered that pretty exhaustively. But just kind of curious. I mean, there's only so much we can talk about when we cover one of these reports. And it's, you know, it's very factual. It's like, here's the data. But I'd really like to get into today, like a bit more of the kind of like granular detail of like what this whole thing looks like and sort of what you're seeing on the ground, because I feel like this is maybe one of the times where we're seeing like more capital relocation than ever in history. And I don't know if you're seeing the same thing, but people are wanting to move into the U.S. out of the U.S. you know, where are they going? What's happening? What kind of trends are you observing as an expert in this space right now?
- [01:33]
Basil Moore
You bet. You bet. So just to take a minor step back and kind of talk about what's happening in industry right now. So historically our industry was for second third world countries looking to better their life. They're looking for alternative education, alternative healthcare, less government corruption, a safe place that they can move and live with their family. And in the last 10 years, we had a huge shift where now first world countries like Canada, like the United States, like the UK are all looking at alternative residencies and citizenships. Now what we're seeing are more and more relocations. The answer is yes. However, what we're not seeing is, sorry, we're not seeing a lot of relocations. We're seeing an increase in Relocations. But we're seeing more people apply for alternative residencies and citizenships as a hedge against geopolitical risk. A backup passport in their pocket, a backup residency for their kids that in the event they need to relocate, they have the paperwork to do. So. So right now, the number one market in the world for us, and it increased ridiculously, is the United States. Citizens are putting this in their wealth planning strategy to say, okay, well, I diversified my real estate, I diversified my asset classes in my portfolios, but how do I diversify my governments? How do I diversify education? How do I diversify where I can live with my family? How do I avoid war tensions? So this is where that citizenship's coming in. So now we've had, obviously, when there's any political shift in the United States, whichever side people are on, they create certainty. And we're getting. They're knocking down our doors.
- [03:03]
Dave Hutchinson
Wow, that's super cool. It's funny, just so you know, like, me and Dan covered this episode a while back, and we were like, we need to get him on this show. This is the best. And we cover a lot of your articles, and we read them thoroughly. So first of all, we appreciate you. So of. I know we're going to dive into this, but. So it's mostly Americans looking to diversify. Diversify their passports, let's say. Obviously, we'll jump into this, but what's the number one place that the Americans are looking to go? What's the number one passport or number one citizenship that they're after right now?
- [03:31]
Basil Moore
So Americans have many different choices, but the volume that we're seeing is going into pathways to Europe. They want to have a pathway to a citizenship within the European Union. The question is why? Because once you get a passport within the European Union, this doesn't give you access to that one country, gives you access to 27 EU member countries as options for your family, for your kids traveling on an alternative passport. So they want to travel on that European passport in the event. Now, I'm not saying it will be the case, but in the event, the other countries may not look at the US Passport as they used to, maybe they want to travel on another one to kind of for security reasons. Or maybe if Covid happens, they want that passport. The country that's having most of the flow right now is actually Portugal. So I'm sure you both have heard of the Portugal golden visa. It slowed down a little bit due to real estate no longer being an asset class to invest in.
- [04:24]
Daniel
Yeah.
- [04:25]
Basil Moore
But now people thought that it closed, but it didn't. So now people are starting to realize, well, Portugal program's open. I had no idea. So now everyone's investing in €500,000 a pop into these. Into these investment funds to get a residency and a citizenship and a pathway to citizenship, which takes approximately six to seven years. But they don't need to do it by relocating. They can do it from home. So that's really the number one option right now. The second option that we're seeing for Americans is the Caribbean islands. So we're looking at St. Kitts and Nevis, looking at Grenada, we're looking at Antigua and Barbuda, very close to the US quick flights. Passport can be obtained in 8 months through either real estate investments or donation through donation.
- [05:07]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. So, okay, so they're looking. They're looking at the. The EU first. You know, it's funny. We had. We had a couple of really cool episodes about Portugal. It seems like Italy is on the rise right now, too, because a lot of people were kind of afraid of that whole golden visa thing in Portugal, and it seemed like they shifted their attention. Or maybe the next Portugal is Italy, based off of some of the people that we've spoken to on the show.
- [05:29]
Daniel
Well, actually, like, Spain fully capped their program with that 100% tax, or they're going after it. And Portugal, similar thing. Right. Like, I mean, there's some negative externalities to this. Right. Where, you know, housing affordability has seen the worst deterioration in Portugal since the beginning of COVID But Italy seems to be kind of on deck to backfill a lot of that demand, which is cool because it's very cheap place to buy real estate. So it's been one of the big focal points of this show, actually.
- [05:54]
Basil Moore
Yeah. Italy has gone up in demand. Americans particularly, and Canadians, in fact, are starting to look at. Look at Italy, too.
- [06:01]
Daniel
Yeah.
- [06:01]
Basil Moore
So Italy, there's always Italy and Greece that have very nice, quick residence programs that you can obtain a residency within four months, but it's not a citizenship play unless there's a relocation requirement. So Italy, to get citizenship by naturalizing, you have to live there, become a tax resident for 10 years, and then you can have to learn Italy, you have to learn Italian, and then you can naturalize as a citizen. Whereas Portugal, to give you some contrast, takes six years, seven years. By staying where you live, you don't have to relocate to obtain that citizenship or become a tax resident.
- [06:28]
Dave Hutchinson
So that's interesting.
- [06:30]
Basil Moore
Yeah.
- [06:30]
Dave Hutchinson
Okay. So in Italy, you have to live there, learn the language, you get citizenship Portugal, you don't, you can do that from your, your home in the us.
- [06:38]
Daniel
That's right.
- [06:39]
Dave Hutchinson
Wow, that's really cool. And then you also, you mentioned in the eu, so in the eu, they, they can also do that from the comfort of their home and they don't have to go and live there. That's correct, Correct.
- [06:48]
Basil Moore
So if they're just looking for, what.
- [06:50]
Dave Hutchinson
Do you mean the like you doesn't matter like if it's because, right, it's eu, they can do it from home, it takes how long?
- [06:56]
Basil Moore
So through Portugal, if they go do that, they can do it all from, from home. They just need to travel a few times to Portugal. They don't have to become a tax resident. That's why it's so easy. They don't have to leave their jobs, you don't have to change their kids schools and, and they obtain their citizenship after the sixth to seventh year. And then with that citizenship they can live anywhere in the 27 countries in the future. They can study anywhere in 27 countries. It passes on to the grandkids. So that's Portugal's edge. But what we're seeing is Portugal now due to the demand, the backlog is like three years. You have to wait for the visa initially. So people are saying, well, I want to plan B. In the meantime, what do I do? So we match Italy with Portugal. So what they do is they do Italy in four months, they have their plan B in Italy, that they can live in Italy, but they start their, their pathway to citizenship in Portugal after six years.
- [07:41]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. That's cool.
- [07:43]
Basil Moore
Yeah.
- [07:44]
Dave Hutchinson
And that the like the amount invested. You, you mentioned a donation, where was that? What was that country for? To, to get the residency.
- [07:51]
Basil Moore
So donation that was for the Caribbean islands. So many countries offer the donation option, even Portugal does. So the Caribbean islands, you can either donate, usually the amount is around 300000 USD depending on the country, or, or you can invest in real estate, usually between 3 and 400,000. So some clients prefer to donate because they don't want the real estate headache and some want to invest in the real estate in the Caribbean islands and they can obtain a citizenship in eight months. However, most clients don't picture themselves living in the Caribbean, they picture themselves living in Europe. So often if they do the Caribbean route, it's more for like a plan B passport or you know, but they need it.
- [08:29]
Daniel
And then when you say like, I mean you're talking about real estate in the Caribbean. Like when we talk about Italy, you know, it's like Real estate seems very accessible. It's like, you know, you can buy a house for like, you know, €2 or something, or like 20 or 100 or whatever. But in the Caribbean, I think housing prices are quite a bit more expensive. Like when the people that you're describing right now are these ultra high net worth or has there been a bit of like a skew down in the wealth category of people who are doing this?
- [08:55]
Basil Moore
Yeah. So as the geopolitical tensions rise back, I would say, you know, a few years ago was mainly significant net worth and ultra high net worth that we're looking into this. But now you're looking at the common folks with reasonable net worth. The middle class starting to look at options like Portugal, because 500,000 is accessible to quite to many. Right. So they're looking at Portugal due to the volume where now people are starting to say, well, what if things do heat up? What if, you know, what if. Look at Russia, you look at Ukraine, look at the Middle east. It's ignorant to think that this won't happen here and we hope it doesn't. But we need to have that access in the event we need to. So we are seeing that go down. Normally speaking, the net worth of our clients that come to us was 10 million plus up to billions. But now we're seeing even in the 1 million to 5 million range, starting to inquire on the lower cost options like Costa Rica. Costa Rica is a, a fantastic program for those on, on a budget looking for a diversification Plan B, there's two options there. You can invest in real estate starting at US$150,000 to get a residence in Costa Rica, or deposit €60,000 into a bank account. So Plan Bs are accessible to the, the normal folk.
- [10:08]
Dave Hutchinson
You can say in Costa Rica, so it's either 150 into into real estate or 60k into a bank account. Almost like the donation type thing.
- [10:16]
Basil Moore
No, no, it's your money. Deposit a bank account, you create a passive income stream, or if you have existing passive income in your country, they will accept you with passive income because it demonstrates your ability to sustain. So right now the criteria is really nice and flexible. But as demand increases in Costa Rica, as demand increases everywhere, they're going to increase thresholds.
- [10:34]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. So I'm assuming this, you've seen a huge uptick since the political change in the U.S. i'm guessing that's pretty common. You've seen a lot of people do this. Interesting. Is there. So the one thing I wanted to touch on because you Just mentioned it, which is I found really cool.
- [10:46]
Basil Moore
So.
- [10:46]
Dave Hutchinson
So this can be passed on to the grandkids. Is that very easy to do just because they have this, or is it another process that grandkids have to go through, or is it simple?
- [10:53]
Basil Moore
It's pretty simple. So let's say you get a citizenship in a European country. Normally speaking, you just need to demonstrate that, you know, the father or mother is a citizen, demonstrate that they're their father and mother through a birth certificate, go to the consulate, a few more documents certified, and you'll be able to apply. So, but the only. The key is don't break the lineage. Right. So if you forget to do it for one year or two years, it's possible that that will not be able to pass on. So as long as it's consistent where if I get it for my kids, my kids get it for their kids and etc. Can keep on going in perpetuity.
- [11:23]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. And you also mentioned that. So a lot of these people are doing this not only for, like, political reasons, but for education for their kids. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [11:31]
Basil Moore
So interesting example, in Canada, yes, the education system is rather subsidized, but in the United States, I promise you it's not. So when you're looking at just if you get a citizenship in Europe now, your kid can go and study in Italy with subsidized education or Spain or wherever they want. Often there are cost savings. There's a lot of positive points to it too.
- [11:52]
Dave Hutchinson
Right. Interesting. That's super cool, folks. You have that. Do you have the article pulled up that we talked about? I was curious to see if it's. Because I know we talked about all these countries and you're talking about the Caribbean as well, and none of them, none of the people, not none, but a big majority of them aren't relocating to live. They're relocating just for a passport issue or passport diversification. Are you aware of people that, like, what would you know the percentage off the top of your head. Ish. Between who's looking to move and live versus who's looking to. Yeah.
- [12:19]
Basil Moore
They give you a ballpark figure right now, I would say maybe 10%. Really? 90 are preparing.
- [12:27]
Daniel
Really?
- [12:27]
Dave Hutchinson
That's actually pretty interesting.
- [12:31]
Daniel
Is there. Let's. Let's like flip the script here and go like, for demand in. Are you seeing an increase in people trying to get like. Because I know one of the big themes that we're seeing in Canada, and I think you're starting to see, like, the, the. The political environment really, like, radicalizing in either direction, left and right. And so obviously I'm assuming people who are wanting to get tax residency outside of the US because of the new political regime are maybe a little bit more on the left and kind of wanting to explore their options. But I think you're seeing almost like an equal thing on the right where people are actually motivated to go to places maybe that are a little bit less like in quotes, woke, let's call it or whatever, where they're going to, you know, the Dubai's of the world or even into the U.S. right. Like I know a lot of Canadians are exploring that because they're not happy with politics out here. Are you seeing a, a trend in, in the other direction from, maybe not from Europe, but like from other places on earth where people aren't happy with their domestic politics and looking to, to diversify in a similar way?
- [13:24]
Basil Moore
Yeah, let me, let me try to share my screen. I want to show you guys something. Give me a sec.
- [13:29]
Dave Hutchinson
Love it.
- [13:31]
Basil Moore
Okay. All right. You guys see my screen here?
- [13:34]
Daniel
Yeah.
- [13:35]
Basil Moore
Okay, so this is the net inflows in 2024. Right? So you hit the nail on the head, Daniel. So 6700 net inflows into the UAE.
- [13:47]
Dave Hutchinson
Wow.
- [13:48]
Basil Moore
Okay, so they are the number one in the world in terms of net inflows of millionaires. Now they have a very attractive tax regime, luxury lifestyle, obviously doing great marketing efforts. And if you look at the usa, it's still really relevant. It's still number two. In fact, we expect this year more people to come to the USA than the uae. Now we don't have the official numbers. We have to wait till the year is done. But right now there's a rush to get into the US because now they're starting to talk about the gold card. Now that that's a price tag of 5 million, where the EB5, which is the general immigration route that people were using since the 90s, the price tag is around 8,800,000 to a million. So now that price will go up five times. So now we're getting a rush for people to come into the United States before they start making it stricter. As we already see how strict it's becoming, the USA still is a very attractive place to live in terms of business opportunity. In terms of wealth. I mean, if you look at our wealth migration report, sorry, our wealth stats, the US cities are on the top and the United States is the richest country in the world. So that being said, it's still a relevant place to immigrate to, but everyone has different opinions. Singapore, still very attractive. Canada, fourth place at 3200 net inflow of millionaires. Then you have, you know, your usual, usual suspects with Australia. Italy is very attractive, but I'll tell you why Italy is attractive, because Italy has a lump sum tax regime right now. They increase from 100 to 200,000. And the UK had a tax reform, as we may know. So many people from the UK had moved to the UAE and Italy due to what's going on in the uk. And these Canadians have a territorial tax regime. So they're looking at this saying, hi, if I cut ties with Canada and I pay no tax in the UAE or I pay less tax in Italy, that doesn't sound like a bad deal. So when we look at this, we're seeing a lot of these first world countries, but we're also seeing emerging countries such as Portugal due to their golden visa program that inherited a net inflow of 800 millionaires. So we're seeing new names on this list now if we're going to look at the outflows for fun.
- [15:50]
Dave Hutchinson
I love this.
- [15:51]
Basil Moore
Okay, so last year, China, I mean it might seem like an alarming number, but, but China has such a dense population, right?
- [15:58]
Daniel
Yeah, same thing with India there. But UK not so much. Right. Like per capita UK has got to be way up there.
- [16:05]
Basil Moore
So, so, so the uk, however, it's, it's an anomaly. Right. Normally we don't have that much outflow from the uk, but due to the tax situation due to people unhappy there, we're starting to see more outflows. Canada's not yet on this list. I don't think we have a population big enough.
- [16:20]
Daniel
Yeah, we're working on it.
- [16:21]
Basil Moore
All right, I know, I know, but, but, but that being said, you know, Canada, in terms of inquiries at Henley to explore alternative residencies and citizenships are on the top 10 nationalities, which is kind of unheard of in terms of volume given the small population of.
- [16:36]
Daniel
That is really interesting.
- [16:38]
Basil Moore
What, we're at like 38 to 40 million right now.
- [16:40]
Daniel
Yeah, 42 million, but like 7% of that's non permanent residents.
- [16:45]
Basil Moore
Yeah, so. So that being said, Canadians are somewhat unhappy. You know, the cost of living is not going down. We're getting an amazing amount of leads from Canadians exploring. A lot of them want to go into the United States as well, just due to the tax system, due to the lifestyle, the weather sometimes. But yeah, we do expect to get a lot more business from Canadians. But U.S. is obviously topping the charts due to population count and wealth. And it's Completely normal. Russia has slowed down a little bit, but this was pretty high in the midst of the conflict. Brazil is an interesting one. Brazil, it's due to tax. So the government keeps on changing the tax system, and even offshore assets of Brazilians, they're starting to put pressure on them to tax. So many Brazilians are starting to look for alternative residencies and citizenship. So, that being said, some are obvious reasons why people are moving, but some are surprises as well.
- [17:44]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. I got a question that's maybe off topic a little bit, but a word or a term that I get that gets tossed around a lot in my circle is an E2 visa for. Can you maybe just quickly talk on that? Just because I know, like, it's just.
- [17:59]
Daniel
Turning this into a consulting call.
- [18:01]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah, this is a perfect.
- [18:02]
Daniel
I know how to get free information out of you.
- [18:04]
Basil Moore
Everything asked.
- [18:06]
Dave Hutchinson
Hey, I'm just. I'm helping the viewers here. That's it.
- [18:09]
Basil Moore
Okay. So an E2 visa. So it depends if you come from an E2 visa, if you have an E2 visa treaty with your citizenship. So Canada does have an E2 visa treaty with the United States. So it's relatively easy for Canadians, given the relations and the treaty in place, to get an E2 visa. Basically, you need to. There's no set amount of what you need to invest in the United States. It really depends on the business. But typically speaking, thousand plus of an investment to a franchise or an existing business that will be actively run can give you a business visa to relocate for your business in the United States. So. So that's a possibility. But if you're looking for permanent residency in the United States, the E2 visa does not convert into a permanent residence or a green card. So that route, the second your business goes under or closes, you have to leave the country. So that's E2 visa. If it's a Canadian that's looking to move with an employer, there are other routes. But, you know, generally speaking, E2 visa would be more independent. EB5 would be a pathway to a green card, which there's rumors of it potentially slowing down, closing for the gold card coming in. But we do expect to have a leeway before that switch would happen. So EB5, it's a bit more expensive, but it would give you a straightforward path to a Greek card.
- [19:18]
Dave Hutchinson
Got it. It's got to sell a few more houses here so I can get that five mil and then get that gold card, no problem.
- [19:23]
Basil Moore
There you go.
- [19:24]
Dave Hutchinson
I got to get to work. I have. I have a question. What? What like, what are the most common? Because I think now more than. Well, you just said it, you know, now more than ever, we're seeing people do. This is a very popular topic. What are like the most common misconceptions prospective clients bring up about, like a second citizenship? I know that's a very vague question, but, like, I feel like it's very, very. People think it's impossible to get citizenship and it's super complex and super difficult. It's like, what are the most common misconceptions that you're hearing of? I know that's a vague question, but I'm not sure if you get like the same question over and over again. I guess it would be country dependent, but maybe you have some input on that.
- [20:01]
Basil Moore
So, so Many Canadians and U.S. citizens are worried about that they're not allowed to have alternative residencies or citizenships. They are permitted. Canada and the United States allows multiple citizenships, and that's not a problem. Usually the restrictions come from the other side. So you're looking at countries like Singapore, India, China, Japan, they all don't allow dual citizenship. So if you want a citizenship of those countries, you'll have to renounce your own. But generally speaking, most countries, European countries, Caribbean countries, they do allow multiple citizenships. So that's one of the misconceptions that we hear. The other one that I hear is sometimes, you know, Canadians are patriotic, Americans are patriotic, and they say, well, I don't need another citizenship. You know, the Canadian citizenship is strong. The US Citizenship is strong right now. It is, right. It's not unpatriotic to get another citizenship. You could still be Canadian or American and be a citizen somewhere else. But what you're doing is during COVID lockdown, when the power of the US passport went from 187 to 61, this gave you an option to travel on a different passport, go in other countries if you had one, but because it didn't, you were limited. Right. So it's not the question of being unpatriotic, but it's just a question of diversifying, diversifying your governments, diversifying where you can live. And you shouldn't feel bad about it. It's, it's, it's a legal program. People always want to say, oh, selling a passport, it's not that easy. Walk into a store and buy a passport. You go through a stringent due diligence process. The government has to vet you, we have to vet you. You have to make an investment to contribute to the economy. You have to be a law Abiding, a law abiding person. And once you check all those boxes, we have all the documentation and we submit it to the government. And these programs for the government are often to push a certain agenda to simulate the economy, such as sometimes building out the healthcare system, sometimes infrastructure that's needed in the country. And another misconception is it'll always be available where, you know, everyone that thought the Portugal real estate would still be available are wrong. And now they're crying and saying, well, now I have to invest double the amount in a fund. Right, that's one of them. And another misconception is, you know, yeah, and the thresholds go up all the time. So in my opinion, if you're in a financial position to do this for your family now, it's never going to be cheaper for you than doing it now than next year or the year after. In fact, Daniel said it. Spain shut their doors and Portugal stopped real estate. Stopped real estate. Malta just closed a month ago. They abruptly closed the program. So now nobody can invest in Malta to obtain a pathway to a citizenship. So, you know, as these programs are available, I suggest you move forward because normally they're always grandfathered in.
- [22:38]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. Yeah, I hear that a lot. So I, I actually sell, I sell real estate in, in Mexico and in Canada and a lot of people, I'm a resident of Mexico, not a citizen, but a resident. And I think the number one question that I answer on my social media is that people cannot wrap their head around, you know, like, what, what do you mean? You can have your, you what? I'm like, no, it's actually not that. I mean, it's complex, but it's, it's, it's fairly doable. And I just, I see it being such a common thing right now, which is really, really cool. Were there any major cities that, that were a huge, you know, they had a massive program super beneficial for Americans and then they kind of shut their doors abruptly. You said Malta, Spain has shut their doors. Any ones that you see maybe with like a big changes coming that people should be maybe looking at.
- [23:21]
Basil Moore
Malta was a surprise for everybody. We didn't expect that one to come. That was one that closed their doors Americans really liked. You're right about Spain. Very popular for Americans and Canadians. They love the program because you just buy real estate and you get a res card. So it's pretty easy, I would say, you know, whenever there's a lot of hype around the program, a lot of demand around the program, expect a change. I'm not saying there will be a change in Portugal. But I, my gut feeling is telling me that given the demand and the amount of people in the program, you better get in now before they start increasing their thresholds. They're not going to close. I don't think they'll close, but they're going to make it more expensive to get in. That's my, that's my gut feeling.
- [23:58]
Daniel
What, what differentiates? So, like that's, maybe it's like a local income thing, but like comparing a place like Dubai as an example, where it's probably not really any change on the horizon, right? Like, if anything, they're going to keep trying harder to pull a lot of this wealth into the country. What differentiates Dubai from a place like Spain or Portugal where, you know, there are huge consequences and they have to shut it down because they have a bunch of people protesting and, and pissed off at the government. From a policy perspective, why is, is Dubai and, and other places, why do they have so much Runway to keep doing this? Is it just because they're, they were base level wealthier countries or not?
- [24:40]
Basil Moore
I mean, they're, they're regulated differently, right? So any European Union member country or part of the Schengen Convention, they're, they have to abide by certain rules, right? Now keep in mind that anybody that would get a Spain residence card, Italy residents, Maltese residents, Portuguese residents, get something called a Schengen visa, right? So if you are, let's say you're from, let's say you're from Egypt or India, right? Your current passport doesn't allow you to travel through Europe without a formal, without a formal visa process that you have to apply to, you have to wait two months or more, get approved for your visa, then go. Then you miss all your business meetings and it's not effective. So what they do is they're applying for a visa in Europe to give them access to travel throughout Europe, because that Schengen visa allows you to travel easily throughout, throughout Europe without applying for a formal visa. So that residence card is really important for them. So basically within the Schengen zone, if they make it too easy to get visas, then they're going to get a huge influx of foreigners applying to their programs just for the reason to travel. Whereas the UAE doesn't have that right? They don't, you don't have access to Europe if you are to apply for residence in the uae. Usually people that apply for residence is for a Plan B or to live in the UAE due to the tax structure. So they're not regulated the same way. And I do think going to the uae, that. That everyone should be looking at it right now. It is easier. I wouldn't say easy. It's gotten a lot harder in the last few years. And I expect in the next 10 years, they're going to increase the barrier to entry. You know, Dubai is at a point where, you know, they don't need as much investment as they did 10 years ago. They have so much investors now. If you're looking at emerging areas like Abu Dhabi, they might be looking for more investments. If you look at Saudi Arabia now, they're starting to build, you know, another Dubai that they want to build to attract talent. So those areas might make it a bit easier, but Dubai is going to get stricter and stricter in terms of approving visas, I would estimate.
- [26:37]
Dave Hutchinson
What is. What is the threshold to get the UAE passport or UAE citizenship?
- [26:42]
Basil Moore
On the real estate perspective, around 500k US you can get a golden visa. So they make it still pretty accessible. And it's a fairly good investment. There's so many developments now, so you have to do your due diligence properly. If you're a very talented individual, then you know, not only the uae, but other countries may have a pathway for you. So in the uae, if you are known on the global scale, if you're very talented, sometimes you can get nominated to get a visa without an investment.
- [27:08]
Dave Hutchinson
So we need to. Okay, so I got to sell more real estate, and I got to get way cooler on this podcast, fosh. And then we got a direct ticket straight to Europe. And we're going to be calling you for some advice then. What? Super random. But, like, what would qualify? How do they. How do they nominate somebody for being special?
- [27:25]
Basil Moore
Sure.
- [27:26]
Dave Hutchinson
Do I qualify?
- [27:28]
Basil Moore
I'll let you know after.
- [27:29]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah. Amazing.
- [27:33]
Basil Moore
So basically, sometimes they look at wealth levels, sometimes they look at what job you're currently doing, education levels. If there's press around you globally, and these are all things that they look at to see sometimes, you know, as Instagram followers, if you're really well known and, you know, have good press around you, they might want to bring you to the UAE to bring more hype around that. So all of these factors go together to get you nominated or not. Now, other countries can be a bit more strict, and we're focusing on that. We opened recently a sports and entertainment desk for really talented individuals globally. And, you know, there are certain countries that may have more discretionary provisions for these talented individuals, such as Australia. So Australia has a talent program that if for example, you made an impact on a global scale. You're really well known, and you can bring an added value to the country. They will give you potentially permanent residency without an investment in Australia. And that's really cool. And then, you know, Austria has certain provisions that may lead to this. The UAE has very clear provisions in terms of nomination. So we're also looking at that. When we look at our client base, we don't just look at their wealth levels, we look at what they were able to do to see if we can fit them into multiple talent routes and discuss with governments to see, you know, who they're looking for in the talent pool to bring them in and then negotiate for them.
- [28:46]
Dave Hutchinson
So, okay, so you're, you're actively looking for those that talent and you talk to the government to help them get that. Oh, wow, that's super cool.
- [28:53]
Basil Moore
Yeah, yeah, it's case by case, but, but at times we're, we're able to, we're able to find accommodations for those highly talented individuals that the government seeks. So that's kind of where Henley has a big edge in the industry because we don't only do a private client practice, we do government advisory, where advice governments on how to create their programs to attract more foreign direct investment for their projects. So we had quite a few government mandates in the future. You know, Henley is kind of a firm that, you know, we help you, but also we have those government relationships to ensure that, you know, you're well taken care of and making sure that you have all the criteria to be approved. Because the last thing we want to do is charge you fees and go over the whole process when you don't have a high chance of success.
- [29:30]
Dave Hutchinson
Right. What's, like, how does it work? Like, say somebody reaches out to us, you know, from the show and says, hey, look, we're interested in this. Honestly, I genuinely believe we're gonna get a lot of good, positive feedback from this because it's such a hot topic right now. How do, how would they go about even beginning that relationship with you? Like, how does that, how does that work from, from your perspective?
- [29:48]
Basil Moore
Sure. Honestly, just reaching out for, for an information session. You know, we don't, we don't charge for the initial conversations. It just kind of high level. What's your family composition? What timeline are you looking at? What would you like to accomplish? You know, what would you like to invest in this endeavor? Right, because everyone has their budgets and perhaps, you know, you know, perhaps they don't have a budget and sometimes they're very restricted on what they'd like to do, depending on income levels. So we kind of cater a portfolio of options for them, for them to review and they can take the information, they can go, or they can decide to start with us. But before we even get started, we run a thorough due diligence on themselves and all the applicants just to ensure that they're going to be successful in the application. Because, you know, certain things like severe criminal records or sometimes, you know, if they're, if they're severely politically exposed. It depends in what fashion. These things can sometimes affect an application. Sometimes open court cases can affect an application. So we'd have to validate that prior to invoicing. Anybody, in fairness. So I would say, you know, to any family, that if this is on your mind, if you're concerned, start by getting the information. It might be more accessible than you think.
- [30:50]
Dave Hutchinson
Interesting. I love that. I think it's, I think that's such a hurdle. I, I really genuinely feel that people, for whatever reason, think that this, this getting citizenship and passports is like the most complex, complicated thing in the world. And it's cool to be talking to somebody like you that, you know, can, can give some clarity to that because it's, it's probably the most talked about. All of my real estate clients, I would, not all, but I would say like 80 to 90% of them are actively talking about this, but don't even know step, what step one is, you know.
- [31:19]
Basil Moore
Yeah, yeah. And it's not, I wouldn't say it's easy, but, you know, and if you try to do it yourself, you know, most people, they'll start the process and then like, ah, forget it. I don't want to do it. Right, but then you didn't, you didn't succeed in your objective. You didn't create that plan B for yourself.
- [31:32]
Daniel
Right.
- [31:33]
Basil Moore
And if you, you know, the amount of money we spend protecting our families, on our kids and everything, you know, this is a fraction of the cost. Just it. With so much benefits. I mean, who knows? I mean, I'm not even going to talk about Canadian health care. I, I think it's it, it. You'll wait a long time in the waiting room, right? I've been there. Lucky you guys have been there.
- [31:54]
Daniel
It's free. But, you know, you know, the saying goes, you get what you pay for, so.
- [31:58]
Dave Hutchinson
Very true.
- [31:59]
Basil Moore
It's a hot topic, right? So when I speak to Canadians, they're like, yeah, absolutely, you're right. And you know, having alternative options for healthcare, education, all these things are super Important. I mean Costa Rica, you get the residency, guess what, they give you access to their public health care and it's not bad. So in the event you have an issue, you know, it's nice to know you can fly over to another country and be taken care of.
- [32:18]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah, that's really interesting. That's cool. Do you have, do you have like say somebody comes to you and they say hey look, I want to relocate and the part of the threshold is to purchase real estate. That's the easiest barrier of entry, let's say. Do you have the connections to like literally hold their hand to give them to professional in that. Yeah. In that field of real estate in each individual country?
- [32:36]
Basil Moore
Yeah, we have an office so we serve them out of Canada or the United States, depending on where they're from. And we also have an office in each of the countries we offer the service and we have real estate teams in each of those offices. So in the event, looking for real estate, you know, we hold their hand on the US or Canada side, they fly over to Greece, they fly over to Turkey, they fly over wherever they'd like and we're able to show them a few different properties that they can choose from. With respect to the program. In the event it's outside of the program, we can still assist due to our extensive network globally and if ever people are looking for particular contacts in a particular country, we vetted most of them. So we're a good resource for them as well in that respect. So we don't only cover them for that immigration route but we also help them with everything around it. Concierge services, education placement, you name it, it's there.
- [33:19]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah, that's really cool. Honestly, I think it's just, it's so funny because this is such a talked about topic and we and Dan, we, we communicate via sending each other your like articles online because they're so interactive and great. What's the most recent, Dan, you got the one that we talked about. I want to see. We were talking about the top countries. Are they still the same since the last time we pulled that article?
- [33:42]
Daniel
Yeah, I think it's an annual report. Right, but there's a couple of new, new reports that you guys put out, like fastest growing wealth hubs, stuff like that. Which was interesting because I think like Scottsdale's number two right after Shenzhen, which is fascinated me like what's going on there? Tell me.
- [33:54]
Basil Moore
Scottsdale?
- [33:56]
Daniel
Yeah. 125% increase in millionaire growth in Scottsdale.
- [34:01]
Basil Moore
It's all around the U.S. right. So I would say California and New York are. I wouldn't say bleeding millionaires, but many are leaving. So you'll see Miami receive a lot. You'll see Palm beach receive a lot. Many are going to Scottsdale. Yes. In fact. And you're going to see the growth rate for Scottsdale. You're looking at 125% in the last 10 years.
- [34:25]
Daniel
Crazy.
- [34:26]
Basil Moore
In terms of growth and millionaires. Right. So these are becoming hotspots. Florida is obvious just due to the tax regime. And during COVID is what really brought Florida on the map.
- [34:35]
Daniel
Yeah, for sure. I mean, everyone in the world was just in Miami during COVID I feel like. Yeah, I was like the craziest Art Basel in history.
- [34:44]
Basil Moore
So. So that. That speaks itself right now. Our head office for the Americas is in Miami. For that. For that reason, that's where I stay. You know, Texas also is receiving quite a bit. Austin particularly has received a huge inflow from California that people are relocating there. And we're being very strategic on where we open our offices. And I promise you there is one in Austin and there is one in Miami. And Scottsdale might be next on the list.
- [35:08]
Daniel
Interesting. Do you got to pick up a good golf game then? Eh? Do you play golf?
- [35:12]
Basil Moore
No. No, I don't.
- [35:14]
Daniel
You will if you're in Scottsdale, that's for sure.
- [35:16]
Basil Moore
Yeah, you're right. You're right. Maybe I'll. I'll meet a couple clients to play some golf.
- [35:20]
Daniel
You have to.
- [35:21]
Dave Hutchinson
So the golf down there is incredible. I can. I can vouch for that for sure.
- [35:25]
Basil Moore
Awesome. Awesome.
- [35:27]
Dave Hutchinson
I'm actually. I'm actually checking my. At the end of this month, I'm going to Austin to check out, see what it's about. Because I think I have to book one of these discovery calls with you because I'm curious for myself to try to get into the US a little bit here. So we'll see. Yeah.
- [35:43]
Basil Moore
Austin's becoming a big tech hub. You're going to see a lot of tech entrepreneurs move to Austin, particularly in Texas, for the reason of usually taxes. Right. They have no state tax, which makes it quite.
- [35:54]
Dave Hutchinson
I just. The only thing I heard that's is. Is silly, but I heard it gets a little too hot in the summers, you know, so I'm trying to. I'm trying to find like my forever spot instead of bouncing around all the time, but.
- [36:06]
Daniel
Well, this. There isn't one. You got a snowbird. That's it? That's all you can do, right? That's the strategy. You just got to pick which which city you're going to end up living your second life.
- [36:16]
Basil Moore
Yeah.
- [36:17]
Daniel
Interesting. Anything else that you wanted to point out here while. While we still have you? I'd love to, like to have you back on the show in the future. Maybe if there's any new trends, like, we'd touch base towards the end of the year, especially because we have some new geopolitical tensions arising and lots more stuff. So I'm sure that there's going to be some increasing changes in some of the trends going on, but is there anything that you'd like to leave our audience with before we.
- [36:39]
Basil Moore
Yeah, sure. I mean. I mean, we spoke about just a few of the options today, but truly there are so many and many are customized. So something that should also be considered right as we want to go for these citizenships by residency or. Sorry, citizenships by investment or residency by investment. Keep in mind that within your lineage, if your parents are born in Europe, this might be a very cost effective route for you to obtain a citizenship by descent.
- [37:05]
Dave Hutchinson
Hold on, I'm gonna. I started. I'm so sorry, but. Okay. My mom's German, born in Germany.
- [37:10]
Basil Moore
Yeah. So you should do that tomorrow.
- [37:14]
Dave Hutchinson
Texting my mom as we speak.
- [37:16]
Daniel
I'm Swiss too, so. But I already have my Swiss password, actually.
- [37:19]
Basil Moore
You see, you see, you should have talked to Daniel.
- [37:22]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah. Danny, what are you doing, dude? Like, come on. You're supposed to be giving me. We're partners.
- [37:25]
Daniel
I had to do a military conscription to get my passport.
- [37:29]
Dave Hutchinson
I wouldn't last a second of the military. That's it. I'm a big teddy bear. That's it. You can't put me in there. I'll just be trying to give everybody hugs and I'll end the war, though. Put me in. That's right. Sorry. Sorry to cut you off. Okay. Your parents. Yeah, yeah.
- [37:42]
Basil Moore
But you may not get the German passport by giving hugs, just FYI. But I try. But nevertheless. Nevertheless, you should. If your mother, as an example, renounced her German passport when she immigrated, there's a chance that you won't be eligible. But if she didn't renounce the German passport when she immigrated, then there may be a possibility. But always, you know, just for the audience, you know, just always double check that first. If it goes many generations, it might not be worth. It might be hard. But if it's your direct relative, like your mom or your dad that was. That was born in a European country, see if you can get that EU citizenship. And that would also pass on to your kids. But nevertheless, we are obviously open for any, any educational consultation and more than happy to do it forever wants to explore any of these residencies or citizenships. But that's, that's.
- [38:25]
Dave Hutchinson
That was on, man. I had a blast. I had a lot more less intelligent questions that I want to ask you. So when I get to the next one, I'm going to hit you with some, like, regular questions because I think.
- [38:35]
Daniel
That one will just be like a full console. We might have to pay you for that episode when Dave's on.
- [38:39]
Dave Hutchinson
Just, just send me the invoice now, man, and I'll just pay it now.
- [38:43]
Basil Moore
Sounds good. Sounds good. It'll be, it'll be, It'll be in the mail.
- [38:46]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Daniel
Yeah. I mean, that's. Honestly, like, really appreciate your insight. And next time I'd be curious because I'm, I'm thinking about this Canada thing and like, I'd be curious to see if you can do that list of, of like, outflows on a per capita basis. Like, because I'd be, I, I'd be really interested to see which countries are ranking the highest because obviously China is going to rank the highest because it's just a high base. Right. But as a percentage of their population. I'd be really interested. I could probably just run the numbers on it. But I wonder how high Canada is on that per capita list because it's a, it's a real sentiment here is that people are, you know, a lot of people are exploring.
- [39:20]
Basil Moore
They are, they are, and I confirm it. And right now they are applying, they're preparing to leave in the event they need to. But, but, but, yeah, I'll try to see if I can pull some numbers together and I'll send it to you by email. Daniel and Dave.
- [39:32]
Dave Hutchinson
Yeah, Amazing.
- [39:33]
Daniel
Thanks, man. Awesome. And where can people find you if they want to connect with you? Should they send you an email? Should they visit you, like, search you up on the website or where do you want them to reach out to you?
- [39:42]
Basil Moore
So there are, there are many ways you can go on the website. You can fill a form just by contact us, but if you saw this podcast and you want to reach me directly, it's Basil B A s I l more m o h r henleyglobal.com so feel free to email me directly and I'm more than happy to jump on a call and go over everything with you.
- [40:04]
Daniel
Awesome. Really appreciate it, man. Thanks a lot for your time and look forward to having you back on the show towards the end of the year and hopefully the world's a little bit less tumultuous by then.
- [40:13]
Basil Moore
And Dave gets his German passport.
- [40:14]
Dave Hutchinson
That's right.
- [40:15]
Daniel
Exactly. I think he's going to be calling you right after this to get. Just get started on that.
- [40:19]
Basil Moore
So not a problem. Anytime, you guys.
- [40:21]
Daniel
All right?