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Real Life Real Crime
Real Life Real Crime | Justice For Hailey Ep 30 | Forensic Blood Spatter & Cold Case Review
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- [00:00]
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- [02:37]
Woody Overton
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney prior to it during any question. If you can't afford one, the court of appointment one for you. Do you understand your rights?
- [02:59]
Scott Roeder
And the wolf is at your home. You're running over, that's for sure. He already knows all about you. Cut you down. No matter about you. Now you better watch the light.
- [03:46]
Woody Overton
Warning. This episode of Real Life, Real Crime. The podcast may contain descriptions of acts of violence or that of a sexual nature and should be for people that are 18 years or older. He my warning people. I do not get the facts of these cases off of the Internet or for some television show. The facts I'm retelling, you were presented to me by the victims of the crimes or the perpetrators who committed the crimes against the victims. My descriptions of the crime scenes, what I saw with my own two eyes. If you're gonna get offended, please turn this podcast off now. Thank you. Hello, everybody. It's Woody Overton, your host of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. And look on this Saturday. It's the last day of the month. The most important thing we have going right now before I start this new case. This this week is hashtag justice for Haley GoFundMe. So we can complete the testing for the evidence room and Scott Roeder. It's almost to 7,000, I think 6,000, maybe 800, something like that. So it's not that far to go. Y' all listen to Scott Rotor. Listen to what the evidence room does. This guy comes with receipts. He there. I mean, probably the best in the world and has had a long career with all the best professionals in the world. We got to get this murder charge before this guy gets out of jail. And the only way to do it, unfortunately, is the Cobb County DA said, well, you got to bring me scientific evidence. Well, we're bringing it, and we're bringing it hardcore. But the evidence frame, you know, they're pretty much doing it for free. The 10,000 cost is basically what he has to pay his employees, and he's not making a dime off of it. But we got to get it done. If we. Y', all, if you can give anything, please do. And if you can't, then share it. And so we will listen to this episode again today. March taking on a totally new case and in totally different way. It's totally different than everything we've done before, but it's very important also, and this is really, really, really going to evolve right here in my backyard, especially all the lifers. So I love and appreciate each and one of y'. All. Please the you can go to gofundme, search justice for Haley or any of our social media. Click on it. Give whatever you can. Let's go ahead and bring this home so they can finish the testing and we get this murder indict and this guy can never kill anybody else again. And I'm Woody Everton, your host of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. Until next time or ever. Don't let me catch you down on murder by you. Peace. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. As always, I'm your host, Woody Overton. Today you're gonna have a very special guest on and we're doing hashtag just for Haley. Big breaking news in the case. And we'll get to that in a minute. But I will have a guest on via telephone. And it's very, very, very important. So stay tuned and hashtag just for Bradley. Hashtag just for AO. Hashtag just. Ms. Bar Blunt, please continue to call on your tips. Very, very important. 313rlrctip not stopping, not giving up, fielding the calls, doing what I do. And let's get justice for them, right? Let's bring them home. It's important. Y' all just keep. Keep the pressure up. Don't give up. You know, cold cases, every one of them is different. It's just like your children, right? If you got kids, you know, every one of them has their own unique qualities. And the burning pears shit show, you know, it's going to stop at some point. The, the a lot is being done. And that's all I can say about it. It's all I'm going to say about it. So that being said, it's Mardi Gras time in South Louisiana, otherwise known as Fat Tuesday in, you know, it's the end of carnival season at midnight tonight. And those, like, on Bourbon street at midnight, they come down with all the cops and the horses and they shove everybody off the street. And pretty much you got to go inside the bar room and they lock it up. And they don't lock it up. They lock you in the bar rooms. And that's it official in the Mardi Gras. And Lent begins, which is a Catholic thing, if you know, you know. And so I hope everybody stayed safe. And I'm doing this about 24 hours already, so I'm praying there's no mass shootings or anything like that that we're missing out on just to kind of keep the tradition going before I get Scott Roeder on the phone. On February 17th, on this day in 1970, this like two weeks after I was born, 26 year old Colette, 5 year old Kimberly and 2 year old Kristen McDonald were murdered in their home in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. A Jeffrey McDonald was found lying next to his wife unconscious with multiple injuries. McDonald was tried for the crimes by the army, but was cleared after six weeks trial. However, McDonnell was later charged by federal prosecutors. In 1975, McDonald was found guilty, convicted and sentenced to life in prison. Now, y', all, he was a doctor. He was a Green beret, and I know the story well. But McDonald maintains his innocence and claims that his family was murdered by Helena Stockley and Greg Mitchell, who allegedly confessed to the crime. How about that, right? All right, without further ado, I'm gonna call Mr. Scott and get him on the phone and we're gonna talk about Haley. Very, very important. Huge, huge. This reason you don't give up in cold cases like Bradley and Aos and Ms. Barbara's that, you know, if you can't get it one way, you think outside the box and go and get it another way. So let's call Scott.
- [10:32]
Scott Roeder
Anyway.
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Woody Overton
Hey, it's Scott Roeder and I want you to. I'm already recording. Just had to give. Give a few brief updates on some other things we have going on. But it's the. I want to say, very exciting to have you on. Thank you for taking your time, first of all. And I don't, you know, I want to talk to the lifers. That's what we call our fans. The. Yeah, y', all, this is raw and unscripted as usual. But the Haley case, and I'm working a couple other cold cases right now. Scott actively. And I was just telling him this is why you don't give up, up. And each case is different. It's like having children. You never know. You know, they each have their own traits, if you will. On Haley's case, we, you know, I did the in depth series and everything else. And then of course we waited because we thought the D A was reinvestigating. She told Ms. Barbara, you know, even called her on a Sunday at home and did all this stuff. And then I kept telling Barbara just to wait. She said she's putting her best investigator on it and she was all fired up about it. I had the recordings of their conversation and she was all fired up about it. And then in the end, they, you know, they didn't Respond and finally got Barbara to contact her again. And they just pushed to the side and said basically that unless we have new evidence that's irrefutable, we're not doing anything. And which, which is a shame. First, you know, so Ms. Barbara, through another lifer fan of ours that's a fan of yours in your work, he, you know, he told Ms. Barbara about it and Ms. Barbara, you know, approached you and everything. And, and it's just, you just don't give up. And there's a reason for that. So. But y' all on the phone. I have with me Mr. Scott Rotor of the evidence room, and you've heard me talk about it extensively the last few weeks. And we're doing the. Or Ms. Barbara's doing the GoFundMe for, for the evidence room, which the. We'll talk about that in a second also, Scott. But the. It's very, very important. Y' all go to any other social media. Go in the Real Life Real Crime community app for free and App Store, it has everything. Real Life, Real Crime. But we have the links to the GoFundMe. I haven't checked it today to see where it was at. I know last time I checked it, we were just over halfway. But you'll understand when we get done with this call that Scott and his p. His team are professionals and you know, professionals have to get paid, right. Scott, we can't do everything for free. And, and I understand that, but the, the. What y' all have done, and we're going to talk about it extensively in a second, which I've done already, is, is, is amazing and I appreciate, you know, you, you doing what you're doing.
- [13:47]
Scott Roeder
Well, thank you, Woody. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on, on your program. I know Barbara's a big fan of your work on, on a lot of your cases. Now, you know, on cases like this, where we've got, you know, we're literally trying to take away somebody's freedom. Right. So.
- [14:05]
Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
Get somebody convicted of murder or at least charged and tried for murder. We have to be very careful.
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Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
You know, as a crime reconstruction expert that also specializes in forensic animation and real world physical experimentations in our laboratory to test dynamics of human biology, biomechanics, anatomy and gun dynamics. All, you know, in the totality of the circumstances is what our goal is to do here so that we can leave no room or doubt as to the manner and mechanism of this death. Now, I'll tell you, you know, first off, you know, as a professional, you know, that's But I'm still a human being.
- [14:57]
Woody Overton
You know, I had children.
- [14:58]
Scott Roeder
I have grandchildren.
- [14:59]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [15:00]
Scott Roeder
Most of our. Most of the cases that we still. That we work on are men. Right. That.
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Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
That are convicted of murder or. Or being charged with murder. Male victims, it's not that often that we get female victims in the totality of our work, you know.
- [15:19]
Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
However, over the last 25 years, I seem to get a very large number of them, probably at least 15 over the last 10 years or so, which is a lot.
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Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
In the body of work. And it's very disturbing when law enforcement, I think, initially makes some omissions in their procedure, made some mistakes in their procedure, and they put themselves behind, I think, the eight ball when it comes to having to remediate or revisit the work that they've already done and conclusions that they've already made.
- [15:58]
Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
Because from an institutional standpoint, they don't want to admit that they made a mistake. Now, I'm not saying that that's the
- [16:05]
Woody Overton
case here, but I'm. Let me interrupt you and I'm gonna do that. Like Scott, the y' all was talking about, and specifically on the reason Brooks Cleary hasn't been charged with murder is they screwed it up from the get go. The, you know, the video of the detective on the scene, he's. He's pissed off that, you know, they've done all the stuff that they did. And then both the real mess up in the procedure is they send Haley for an autopsy, but with no information to the pathologist. Now, pathologist is only as good as the information they have. It's like if you go see your doctor and you just tell your doctor you're sick, but you don't tell them about any of the symptoms or whatever, then your doctor can't make the correct assessment. I have never in my 30 years and I've been to a thousand autopsies. You go the detective, you know, when you take the. The custody of. Of Haley's body and it's a chain of custody, you bring it in and then you open it, cut off the clip and make sure this. It's the same lock, etc, and you open the bag and they start the autopsy. Well, before that happens, the pathologist is asking a ton of questions. You know, was it a domestic thing? Are they witnesses? You know, what happened? This guy had nothing. And the. And because he's saying there was no damage to the back of the tongue and he automatically ruled it a suicide. I'm gonna be honest. When sleep's off. Everything is off and most of the stuff people recommend either doesn't work or leaves you feeling foggy the next morning. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com Mood is an online destination for federally legal hemp derived cannabis grown on small pesticide free run farms right here in the us. And yes, a lot of people don't realize this. It's completely legal to buy online and it ships discreetly straight to your door. Mood makes products for different moments and different vibes, gummies, flour, edibles, pre rolls, and more. 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- [21:46]
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- [23:14]
Woody Overton
And then after the detective's like oh hell no. Then went over and told him everything, he changed it to undetermined which is a big step for them to do anyway. But it's really not the pathologist fault. I mean they just screwed it up. They should have had if he had had the information that we have from the get go then it had been a totally different thing. Now we have recordings of the the cops every different one of them sky and the saying this is a murder, this is a murder. We're going to get it. This is a murder. Until they didn't and they ended up trying him just for moving Haley's body and destroying some shit in the police station and the cop car. But the deal being is out of the mouth of babes their head guy said but you know what this is the pathologist that we use on however many homicides we have a year and for us to go back and go against him, a defense attorney will have a field day. And I and I agree with that but not to the point it's not Steel ruled a suicide at least he changed it and it needs to go to a jury and at least the grand jury and they need to hear the facts and the fact that he changed it and I mean everybody makes mistakes. You know I believe Blue I'm not against the cops. I've always been a cop, always will be but the thing being is if they had done it correctly we wouldn't be talking today.
- [24:50]
Scott Roeder
And so 100 on that and there is new evidence that we are zeroing in and it is the blood spatter evidence on the wall right that I think is ultimately going to be the incontrovertible evidence. Right that will stand up to cross examination that will hopefully prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this is a murder and not indeterminate and not suicide.
- [25:19]
Woody Overton
Right. Couple of things real quick the and then look it's my ocd, my scatter brain is rolling right that my thoughts out I'll do my mouth but what I want to do if you don't mind real quick can. Can you tell us about your career and credentials in the evidence room the before we get into the meat of it the I've told them briefly What I researched about you and everything. But the, I think it's very important, especially when it comes to raising, you know, the rest of the money and whatever money's needed in the future the that they know. I, I had to do it. I, you know, I told Ms. Barber when she called me about you, I was like, well, you know what? I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna go out on that limit. I know he is legit. I know the evidence for him is legit. I did my research and I told the lifers that, that you're legit. But I wanted to hear from the mouth of babes. How did you get into the work? What's, what's going, you know, if you're
- [26:20]
Scott Roeder
happy, happy to do it. So I, I started off as in photography and worked with the Cleveland Police Department as a very young man, you know, 21 and 22 years old, working with their homicide unit on crime scenes and forensic photography. I will later went back to school and studied the University of New Haven School of Forensic Science under Dr. Henry C. Lee
- [26:52]
Woody Overton
for the life. So nay, he's probably one of the most famous ever besides Biden, who has, you know, had his own show. Right, right.
- [27:03]
Scott Roeder
And Dr. Lee, good friend of mine, also my mentor and he's the one that got me started in this business. And also, you know, I've worked under my, my dear. One of my dearest friends Most recently passed Dr. S.E. weck Pittsburgh, who I authored a book with called Prevention of Officer involved deaths with Dr. V. Melvin Tucker and Van Blom, also former chiefson police in a textbook to, you know, for investigators. It's mostly used at law schools and, and things like that. So I started my company evidence room in 2001 after a 10 year career working as a consultant for other companies.
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Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
And since 2001, I've consulted on over 3,000 individual cases, gone to trial hundreds of times. Right. Given my deposition hundreds of times. And I provide expert testimony, forensic animation.
- [28:05]
Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
Specifically, you know, we're known to, you know, kind of bring the, the art, science and law together. It's kind of our triangle of our principles of our company. Where, you know, the science is the reconstruction, the art is the forensic animation. And then my legal experience with the law on how to put it all together in a convincing package to present it to a jury and to a judge and the prosecutors. I've worked with law enforcement. I've worked against law enforcement.
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Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
One of my biggest clients was the Johnny Cochran law firm out of Los Angeles.
- [28:43]
Woody Overton
Really how about that?
- [28:44]
Scott Roeder
Yeah, yeah. So, you know, we, we do a lot of police involved shooting cases. We do civil, you know, criminal. We've defended police officers on cases of murder.
- [28:55]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [28:56]
Scott Roeder
I've worked on dozens of suicide cases or cases that have been ruled suicide that we've been able to determine that were not suicides. We also worked on several post conviction cases and we've got several people exonerated and freed from jail. Matter of fact, one of our most successful cases, a case by the name of Marty Tankliff who was convicted of murdering his parents. We worked on the case for the New York Innocence Project and Barry Shack, right. And was able to get him released, found actually innocent. And then now that, that gentleman, Marty Tankless is now a professor at Georgetown University where I'm an adjunct for him and he was once incarcerated for murder. So we do all kinds of different things. You know, we have, I'm based out of Cleveland, Ohio. We have a five man team here, five person team of forensic animators and legal professionals and biomechanical artists. Of course. I am the director of the projects. And so that's who we are and what we've done. We've had some very famous cases. I was the expert for the, for Oscar Pistorius on the river scene, Camp death in South Africa.
- [30:10]
Woody Overton
Yeah. Hey, let me tell you this. Every, every case you're mentioning, every person you're talking about, the lifers are eating it up. My fans, you know, they say they're cult like, but they're die hard true crime. They're going to know this like stories. They're going to know who Lee is and Shank and Johnny Cochran and, and, and everybody else. Hey, real quick, the. Yeah, I. First time I was not. First time I was in federal court, but first time I was a fail court on the consultant on the defense side, the prosecutors are friends of mine, Right. They spent more time in a Darber challenge on me than they did the whole case. So how many times have you been challenged on that?
- [30:56]
Scott Roeder
Probably a dozen times. I passed every Dauber challenge. The good thing I, the thing I think that I benefit from is I'm not an ideologue. Okay. I don't have an ideology other than the truth.
- [31:08]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [31:09]
Scott Roeder
So I'll for example, I'll work for the Cleveland Police Department defending a police officer on a case of, you know, civil rights violation.
- [31:17]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [31:18]
Scott Roeder
And then I'll work on a case suing the Cleveland Police Department.
- [31:21]
Woody Overton
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always say, you know, it's about justice. It's about the truth, where it's like you said, and, and let the chips fall where they may. If you're dirty, you're dirty. If you're not. I, I'm a staunch. The, you know, I, I'm a big firm believer in the death penalty. And that's because the, you know, certain crimes warranted. I've had to be on the scenes. I've had to deal and work these cases. And the last person. Well, until last year, last person put to death in the state of Louisiana was Gerald Bordelon. He was at neps back in 2012, and he waived all his rights to pills. But the thing being is, I also have helped many people that, that were innocent, I believe just as vehemently and, and defending and exonerating an innocent person as I do convicting the guilty one. So I think that's genius on your part. And, and if, and people know, if I come in on a consulting side, oh, the, you know, what he's saying this and what he's taking off this fight.
- [32:33]
Scott Roeder
I don't have a dog in the fight.
- [32:34]
Woody Overton
Exactly. There you go.
- [32:38]
Scott Roeder
You know, we have a lot of friends in the business, but, you know, I have a good friend of mine that I've worked with him on, I don't know, maybe 50 cases and, and now he's against me on a case. Right. So he called me up, he says that, don't talk to me about this case because I'm gonna have to try to rip you up on it.
- [32:56]
Woody Overton
Right, right.
- [32:57]
Scott Roeder
And that's the kind of the. It's a small community in, in the expert consulting world. A lot of people, we run the same circles, we go to same professional associations. We've.
- [33:07]
Woody Overton
Right.
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Scott Roeder
We've all, you know, worked on similar cases with different lawyers and. But it's about keeping, you know, the personality or the personal feelings out of it and just doing the work.
- [33:18]
Woody Overton
That's correct. And it's a. You're not, you're not seeking a bias or what is a confirmat. You don't have a confirmation of bias. The. It's. You take the facts as they are. The same thing I do when working the case. Take the facts as they are and let them lead you where they, where they go. And, and you're not trying to make, you know, a square peg fit into a round hole because it's something that you believe in personally. You're just simply looking at the facts and, and fighting for justice one way or another.
- [33:52]
Scott Roeder
I'm not a people pleaser.
- [33:53]
Woody Overton
I'll give you I'm the same way.
- [33:57]
Scott Roeder
We had a client recently where we finished our reconstruction, sent it off to the lawyer, and the lawyer said, I'm not happy with this. I said, why? And she said, well, it makes our client look guilty.
- [34:07]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [34:09]
Scott Roeder
I cannot change the facts of the case. Well, I'm not happy about it. I was like, well, your happiness is not my department.
- [34:14]
Woody Overton
Right, right.
- [34:16]
Scott Roeder
My department is to give you what the, what the facts say.
- [34:18]
Woody Overton
Yep.
- [34:20]
Scott Roeder
So, you know, it's, it's a fine line between, you know, trying to be a helpful consultant and being a truthful consultant. Look, you always have to err on the, on the side of being a truthful consultant.
- [34:31]
Woody Overton
I do the same thing in my defense consultant working, travel the country doing it. And there's been lawyers that just knew their client was innocent. And I go in, I spend two hours with him, I go back and they said, what's going on? I said, you better to tell that some take a plea because, because he's guilty. Right. I mean, I just got him to confess to me.
- [34:54]
Scott Roeder
So I'm a big fan of Thomas Jefferson where he said, let a thousand guilty men go.
- [34:59]
Woody Overton
Absolutely, Absolutely.
- [35:02]
Scott Roeder
Something to you. A lot of people talk about like the, the O.J. simpson case.
- [35:06]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [35:06]
Scott Roeder
Guilty as the day is long. He murdered those two people.
- [35:10]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [35:10]
Scott Roeder
As far as can be. But then, but then I was sitting there with Johnny Cochran in his Los Angeles office. I didn't know actually his Chicago office since was a couple years after that. This is showing my age and this is my first case working with him. And I talked to him about it. I said, you know, I think O.J. was guilty, Mr. Cocker. And he's like, and he's like, that's not our job.
- [35:32]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [35:33]
Scott Roeder
Our job is to force the government.
- [35:37]
Woody Overton
Yeah.
- [35:37]
Scott Roeder
They have all the power. And then, and I learned something from that experience. So there is a benefit of defending the guilty, everybody's representation because we have to treat the least of us the best.
- [35:52]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [35:52]
Scott Roeder
Or else the best of us will be treated like the least absolutely correct in the representation. So, yeah, so that's a little bit about me and, you know, my ideology and what we do and, and how we like to do it. So.
- [36:06]
Woody Overton
Yeah, well, you, like, I'm in the
- [36:08]
Scott Roeder
five of my career at this point in time, and, and I'm taking on cases that I believe in.
- [36:12]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [36:13]
Scott Roeder
Haley Johnson cases in case I really believe in.
- [36:16]
Woody Overton
And, and, and I'm the same way. I get requests at least, at least one a day. Unless Dateline or Cold Case files or whatever TV shows I've been on runs then I'll get 50 in that day. But at least one case a day on average from families that are hurting around the world. I woke up this morning, had another one. I can't do them all. Yeah, it's impossible. It's physically impossible. Haley's case, I took it because the it, I mean, it's, it spoke to me. Right. And, and at this I'm like, come on, man. The end. So, you know, took it on and. But I believe what I believe in and I know what were the mistakes were made and everything else.
- [37:01]
Scott Roeder
Well, you know what, One of the major things that before I really got into the case file, looking at the crime scene evidence, I looked at all of the evidence sequentially. So I looked at it as the evidence was collected. And one of the first pieces of evidence I looked at was the bottom camera footage of the officer that come up to the scene and he is having an encounter with a fireman. And I've never seen in the history of doing all my cases, a fire department, fire squad physically restrain somebody case
- [37:36]
Woody Overton
and set him out.
- [37:38]
Scott Roeder
Wow. Never seen a fire department act like that before.
- [37:41]
Woody Overton
And they set him out on, you know, in the cold on the steps and of course they moved the shotgun and you know, they just blew it all up. And you know what sticks out of me on one of the videos? And thankfully we have all that evidence, the, the videos and in audio and everything else. But when the one cop says that's the most complete, complete, complete brain I've ever seen. Yeah, they were. It is shock themselves.
- [38:11]
Scott Roeder
But that's interrupted, Woody. But that is a key piece of forensic evidence that helped me determine the angle and the position of the shotgun when it was discharged.
- [38:22]
Woody Overton
Yeah.
- [38:23]
Scott Roeder
And I'll explain a little bit more of that later.
- [38:25]
Woody Overton
But before we get into that, I want to tell you my honest and just absolutely my mind what you sent last week. Because the, everything that I'm was thinking because of what they said, you know, she blood alcohol was a three or whatever. And I'm like, she, I, I, I thought she was laying down. And, and so that's what when, what you said, what you said, we'll get into that. But I saw the bullet spatter that then I was like, holy smokes, she couldn't have been laying down. And, and, but I'm thinking the brains off the back end of the couch, the, you know, she's laying down when she, when she was shot. But the, what you've already done. And I know I'm Putting the cart for the horse, which you've already done, disproves what the vision I had in my head, you know.
- [39:18]
Scott Roeder
Yeah. Well, the brain coming out it almost intact to me was I, I had never seen that before like that. And that to me indicates that the gun was in a horizontal position.
- [39:32]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [39:32]
Scott Roeder
In addition to. When you combine that with the blood spatter above the couch, the blood spat. When I analyze the blood spatter on the wall above the couch here, the clock, it's not as high up as you would think. It's a very small couch. Okay.
- [39:47]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [39:49]
Scott Roeder
So. And then, and Haley's very, very small as well, so he's just five foot tall. So. And, and that weapon, I think, I think it's at. I had the, I don't have, I
- [40:02]
Woody Overton
believe, I believe it was a Mossberg 12 gauge, but I think it's 28 inch barrel.
- [40:08]
Scott Roeder
Yeah, 28 inch barrel. Muzzle target or trigger to muzzle. 44 inches.
- [40:14]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [40:14]
Scott Roeder
Okay. And then when you factor in how tall somebody is, usually their arm length typically is, is equal to their height. Tip of the finger.
- [40:25]
Woody Overton
Right, Right.
- [40:25]
Scott Roeder
So you kind of cut that in half and factor it in so you can figure out what their reach ability is. So, so when you, so it's all about the totality of the circumstances and the interrelationship of the evidence. Not any one piece of evidence really gets you crossed up in a spine. Right. So it's like a spatter. The blood spatter on the wall to me is, is what I call a horizontal blowout.
- [40:54]
Woody Overton
Okay.
- [40:56]
Scott Roeder
Where there's not much directionality in the, in the blood droplets and the brain matter that's on the wall, except for on the exterior of the blood stain itself. And you're going to get that because of spread. Right. Distance will cause a little bit more spread.
- [41:13]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [41:13]
Scott Roeder
So the further you get away from the center of the, of the blast, you'll get some directionality in an outwardly way. And that's what we see here.
- [41:21]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [41:22]
Scott Roeder
But the, the main blowout of the high velocity bat spatter is horizontal in nature. And there's even a, A, a, a, an area with very little blood spatter. Which is. Because that's where her head was.
- [41:40]
Woody Overton
Exactly.
- [41:41]
Scott Roeder
Okay.
- [41:41]
Woody Overton
Yeah.
- [41:42]
Scott Roeder
And then, then if you look on the wall to the, to it would be to Haley's left. There's also spatter there. So she couldn't have been laying down. She had to be standing up when that shot was, was fired. And if you look at how long her arms are in the directionality of the Back spatter. And the wound path involving her tongue. And then the 87 by 8 inch cavity blowout the back of the skull. And then with the brain falling out almost intact on the couch to me says that gun was straight back. Because if that gun had any upward directionality, her brain would not be intact.
- [42:29]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [42:30]
Scott Roeder
And the, the blood would be all up on the ceiling.
- [42:33]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [42:34]
Scott Roeder
We don't see that here.
- [42:35]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [42:37]
Scott Roeder
So that's why I have her in standing or staggering standing position. And then also her right hand, she was right handed. And after talking with Barbara, she told me that, that that's the way she sleeps with her ain't right handed. Her hair.
- [42:51]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [42:52]
Scott Roeder
And that makes sense to me. You know my, you know, I know people that they have a very specific ways. I'm a side sleeper. I am example my, my girlfriend, whenever she falls asleep, she puts her hand up against her, up against her mouth like she's smelling her knuckles. And that's the way she falls. Everybody has a different way they fall asleep. So the fact that she had hair clumped in her right hand obviously tells me her right hand wasn't involved in any way.
- [43:19]
Woody Overton
Right, right.
- [43:20]
Scott Roeder
And then her left hand could not be 44 inches to get purchased on that trigger.
- [43:24]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [43:26]
Scott Roeder
So that puts that horizontal position to be impossible to be a self inflicted gunshot wound. Now if this was an up shot, if and for example, if she was standing, well, kneeling and then used the ground to, to stabilize the weapon.
- [43:45]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [43:45]
Scott Roeder
And then fired. Okay, that's possible. But that's not consistent with her wounds and that's not consistent with the blood evidence on the wall. And the fact that her brain came out almost totally intact to me demonstrates that back cavity of the wound was the direct which allowed her brain to fall out.
- [44:07]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [44:09]
Scott Roeder
Intact. So that proves, I believe the horizontal horizontal nature of the gunshot wound. And if it's the horizontal nature of the gunshot wound, then it could not be self inflicted because you cannot reach it in a horizontal nature. It has to be vertical in some degree for it to be self inflicted. So I think that was incontrovertible. But we need to be sure and I need to do more experimentation. We've got sketches and designs and layouts right now that I think are really solid. But for us to be able to present this to the police department, which is my hope, is that we can present it to the police department publicly or directly, however we're going to do it and provide them an expert report to let them know, you know, I think the next step for me is to do a physical experimentation with a gel ballistic mannequin.
- [45:03]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [45:03]
Scott Roeder
To. To replicate that blood spatter on the wall.
- [45:07]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [45:08]
Scott Roeder
And to replicate with a physical model the ability to reach or not reach to get purchased on that trigger. So that's the next step.
- [45:14]
Woody Overton
Yeah.
- [45:15]
Scott Roeder
Is physical experimentation. I think that should get us over the line.
- [45:19]
Woody Overton
Yeah. And the. I think about the one case I had where it was a grandfather was Easter Sunday. And the. He was going on trial the next day for molestation. His grandkids, and he shot himself. But. But he was doing it laying down and he actually pulled it because there was a witness. He pulled it, believe it or not, with his toe. But the, but you're. I mean, laying down, not an option. That's the, that's the biggest and first thing. And you know, I didn't even think about, you know, but I'm not a forensic scientist. But the, you know, certainly, I know blood spatter. Hey, let's talk about that real quick. These. And I know lifers know. But the spatter is caused by, you know, when you have a wound that goes through the first blood comes out slower than the blood that's coming out behind it, and that blood hits it and makes it kind of like, what would you call it? Explode. And can you.
- [46:25]
Scott Roeder
Yeah, it's. It's called high velocity spatters.
- [46:27]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [46:28]
Scott Roeder
And when the, say we've got the, the projectile within the gun and this is bird shot. So I think it's.
- [46:36]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [46:37]
Scott Roeder
And so the, the bird shot itself isn't the, Is it what is causing all the damage? Okay. It's the gunpowder in the shell that causes the explosion and causes the, the wound. So it's a high charge explosion that's coming out of the barrel of that gun. And when it interacts with the, with the anatomy, we've got a total pulverization of anything in that path. But it starts off with the barrel of the gun that. But then it spreads out very fast, especially on the shotguns. Once different than a handgun or, or even a hollow tip.
- [47:21]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [47:22]
Scott Roeder
You know, a projectile, a shotgun blast is. Has very unique, you know, characteristics. And it's the charge in the gun that causes that explosion. When the blood comes out of the back of the head. And it's not just blood, it's bone, it's. It's tissue, all kinds of things. And then the blood that comes out when it hits the wall, it. It has a directionality. Right. So for example, you know, if I hit like an artery in my neck and you'll have it's called arterial spurting. Right, Right. And it'll hit the wall, and it'll hit the wall at an angle, and the blood droplets will have a tail on them. Okay. And that tail will tell you the direction the blood hit the wall.
- [48:11]
Woody Overton
Right?
- [48:11]
Scott Roeder
Right. So that's what we looked at here when we analyzed that bloodstream. And what's your. Each individual blood droplet that we could identify as an individual blood droplet. And that'll tell me the directionality of the source of the blood, and that helps us get the head in the correct position.
- [48:28]
Woody Overton
Mm. Well, it's. It's fascinating to me. And, you know, and it's just, you know, going back and I'm. What I'm gonna do, y'. All is, is I'm gonna post the. I, you know, I never posted any of the crime scene photos or. Or, you know, autopsy or whatever because I don't have to do it for. Yeah, I don't. I have to sensationalize this as bad enough. Right. But the what.
- [48:58]
Scott Roeder
What I sent over, we kind of distilled it so it's not so graphic.
- [49:03]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:03]
Scott Roeder
It's accurate, but it's not gory.
- [49:07]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:07]
Scott Roeder
I want to be careful about that, too, because, you know, and that's why we do the forensic animation.
- [49:13]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:13]
Scott Roeder
Because it kind of takes the science of everything that we need to know of what happened so that it's understandable and digestible without being overly shocking.
- [49:23]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:23]
Scott Roeder
Although it's hard to avoid that.
- [49:25]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:25]
Scott Roeder
To be. Of course it's shocking, but it's not the actual images.
- [49:29]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [49:30]
Scott Roeder
So I think they're fairly safe.
- [49:32]
Woody Overton
Yeah. Well, the. And what I will do is, you know, release it to the world. We're in 160, something countries, right. I'm gonna release it when it comes time that they're, you know, and they got to shit or get off the pipe. The deal being that once, you know, you get the evidence to where it needs to be and we present, if they don't take it, then we're going to burn them down worldwide. And it's what we did before. And why the D. A called Barbara herself on Sundays. Because all my fans kept calling and emailing to the point this lady's like, look, I can't even do anything with all this coming in. And. And so she gave. Well, she played like she gave Barbara the attention. And you know what? She was next. She's the next cop before she was a lawyer. And I really believe. I really, truly in my heart believe from listening to her how fired up she got. Because she didn't know anything about the facts of the case that she was going to, you know, step up and do what she said she was going to do, but they didn't do it.
- [50:38]
Scott Roeder
My goal is to not be like. I don't want to be antagonistic or hostile in my work, because, like I said, I'm trying to do without pride or without passion.
- [50:47]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [50:48]
Scott Roeder
Just trying to do the skill. And my goal is to give the prosecutors in law enforcement some real evidence that they can sink their teeth into something new.
- [50:58]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [50:58]
Scott Roeder
They hadn't factored.
- [50:59]
Woody Overton
They hadn't.
- [51:00]
Scott Roeder
That. My. My review of the file. They haven't factored in the blood spatter to. To. And. And the anatomical destruction inside of the head with the directionality and the horizontal nature of the weapon. I don't think they factor that in. So that's new to them. So my goal is to give them this new information so that they can say, okay, let's verify it on our own.
- [51:26]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [51:26]
Scott Roeder
Let's go see what Scott wrote or did, and let's try to read. Let's try to duplicate it.
- [51:31]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [51:31]
Scott Roeder
And I'm confident when we're done with our work, and we're not done yet, but I'm. Hopefully. I'm hopeful and I'm confident that when they see our final reconstruction and read the report that comes along with it, that they'll take that as new evidence and criticize it.
- [51:47]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [51:48]
Scott Roeder
And break it down.
- [51:49]
Woody Overton
Right.
- [51:49]
Scott Roeder
And I'm confident that once they break it down, they'll say, oh, he's right. Right, let's move forward with this. We now have the evidence to move forward, and that's my goal, is to give them a tool that they can use and verify independently to go ahead and try to get charges.
- [52:05]
Woody Overton
That's correct. And. And I want to go over that. Touching that point real quick. So y', all, when we do this and. And it's done, hopefully, hopefully she'll be the professional that I thought she was. And I totally expect them to send to whoever they use and whatever and say, you know, dispute this or tell me it's the truth. Right. And the. So we know that, you know, it won't be over just getting them to look at it. I mean, technically, that's their job. It shouldn't be an issue. But the. The. We want them to challenge you. You know why? Because I believe in the evidence room. I believe in Scott Road, and I'm, you know, I know you're going to come correct in this going. They're going to come back with their. Whomever it is they use and they're gonna be like holy, he. He's correct. And, and you. How can you not prosecute this dude for murder?
- [53:03]
Scott Roeder
Well, and I'm. I'm willing to offer my services to the prosecutor's office witness. Full prosecutor myself. So that's why I'm trying to be careful to not use any inflammatory language about, you know, obviously I think they made them. They made some mistakes and I think.
- [53:18]
Woody Overton
Right. And that happens.
- [53:20]
Scott Roeder
That make mistakes. It happens.
- [53:22]
Woody Overton
Absolutely.
- [53:24]
Scott Roeder
The problem with mistakes are they're not a problem unless you don't own up to them.
- [53:31]
Woody Overton
That's right. You gotta own up to it and take whatever lick you got to take and then make it correct. And so when I say, you know, we burn down etc, that's only to get the political pressure or back in my day we called it an ape. An acute political emergency where it draws enough attention media wise and everything else. We're like, oh you know what, we gotta revisit this. We gotta make sure, you know, the. We did X, Y and Z and they didn't. And you know what? Who cares? Yeah, you messed up. I've seen so many cases that are messed up. Just poor work or just human error or just mistakes. A calamity of errors, if you will. Everything from the fire department and the gun getting moved to whatever it. Not sending somebody to the. With a detective to the pathologist for the autopsy. That's okay. We're not. I'm not saying they're horrible people. I'm just saying, you know, own up to, to. To your mistakes and get justice. That's what it's about. At the end of the day. I don't, I don't care. I'm not mad. I don't hate these people or anything else that the. I hate the fact that, that you know, that although I'm enjoying talking to you, Scott, I hate the fact that it had to come this far when there's. I mean, but, but obviously, obviously. I mean I'm telling you the whole time I'm thinking they're saying she was laying down. They're saying. And I never even thought the. Of her standing or you know, naturally they were fighting and what have you. She's standing and is awake and he did it. Whether he meant to. Well, I guess you would have to mean to pull the trigger.
- [55:15]
Scott Roeder
You also have to factor in her blood alcohol level.
- [55:18]
Woody Overton
Absolutely.
- [55:18]
Scott Roeder
A lot of research on her blood alcohol level.
- [55:21]
Woody Overton
1.
- [55:22]
Scott Roeder
I don't think since she would have the Dexterity and the coordination. No way to pull this off in any way, shape, or form.
- [55:29]
Woody Overton
No way.
- [55:31]
Scott Roeder
You know, so, you know, when you look at. And then you look at some of the witnesses that the. The fire department, they clearly thought that this was a murder, that Brooks came to and said, call 91 1. That guy when he picked her into the room.
- [55:48]
Woody Overton
Yeah. Well, when he's listening to it, you can hear Brooks in the background, and he's doing that fake crying. And in one part of it, he. In the middle of it, he's. He calls her a. When he's. I don't know if you picked up on that, but he's doing the fake crying. He's like, oh, baby, baby. And he says, you. And. And then he got back into character. And there's so many different things, you know, like the guy that saw him downstairs, Buck, I think his name was. A young man saw him. And when she kicked him out and why didn't you ask him what he was wearing? And obviously he changed clothes. Just. Just a calamity of errors. They could have got the video from the restaurant that got kicked out in earlier. They see what he had on. Whatever you have the. Have the. The amount of time from the. The neighborhood. The thud. It's 10, 15 minutes later that he has to run out. And. And it's trying to get someone to call 91 1. Well, guess what. His. His. He had a phone. How many times did you say. All we were doing all day long is watching YouTube videos. Why do you have to run out to call 91 1? And then you say you tell the cops or, you know, when you're on the balcony or later on, you tell them in the detectives In. In the interview room. Oh, no. She was standing right there with me the whole time. I'm like, oh, no, that's not correct. All right, y', all. There you had it. This. That look. And by the way, in case I didn't say in the beginning, that phone call was totally raw and unscripted. Scott and I did not speak at all before other than I called him the, like, 20 minutes before and said, hey, can you record? He said, absolutely. So everything we talked about, raw and unscripted. Let's get justice for Haley. Justice for Haley funded an independent forensic review is to go fund me. Look, you know what? Everybody that gives, even if you're an anonymous, I'm gonna read. I'm gonna read the names. You know, let me do that now. I'm gonna go ahead and read the names of the people who have donated and I want to say thank you so much. The Jennifer Hatfield donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Jennifer. Laura Caddy donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Laura. Jacqueline Burns donated $200. Thank you, Jacqueline. Hope Malcolm donated $50. Thank you, Hope. I appreciate it. Jamie Patterson donated $50. Yolanda M. Hill donated for thank you, Jamie Patterson. Yolanda m. Hill donated $40. Michael Winkleman donated $50. Thank you, Michael. Thank you. Londa Vera Lillis donated $50. Thank you so much. Vera L W Sanders donated $50. Thank you so much. Lila. Christy and Charlie Davis donated $25. Thank you so much. Christy and Charlie. Laura Maurice donated $25. Laura. Thank you so much. Stacy Taylor donated $25. Stacy is huge. Thank you. Michelle Gore donated 25. Michelle. Thank you so much. An anonymous donor donated $50. Thank you so much. Suzanne Dunn donated $10. Thank you so much. Suzanne. It's awesome. Another anonymous donated 20. Thank you so much. We appreciate it. Nicole. Partyman donated $10. Thank you, Nicole. It's awesome. Alan Jorgensen donated $10. Thank you so much. Alan. Forgiven. Kimberly LeBlanc donated $10. Kimberly, it's awesome. Thank you. John Basil donated $6. John. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Tommy Thomas And Cox donated $68. Tommy. Thank you so much. Crystal Williams donated 25. Crystal. Awesome. Thank you. An anonymous donor donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, whoever you are. Amanda thomason Cox donated $68. Amanda, that's awesome. Thank you. Laura Beal donated $50. Laura, thank you. You're amazing. Brandy. Martin Hunter donated $30. Brandy. Thank you so much. Shonda Parrish donated $20. Thank you so much. Shonda. Jay Jocelyn donated $50. Thank you, Jay. We really appreciate it. Carrie Robin donated $50. Carrie. Amazing. Thank you. Jennifer Reeves donated $19. Jennifer, it's awesome. Thank you so much. Jennifer Davis donated 25. Jennifer. Thank you. Thank you. Jennifer Hatfield donated 200. Jennifer. Thank you so much. Ashley Heathershaw donated $20. Thank you so much. Ashley. Another anonymous donor donated $24. Thank you so much. Lauren Adams donated $25. Lauren. Thank you. Thank you. Another anonymous donor donated $20. Thank you so Much. Rochelle Good donated 25. Thank you so much. Rochelle. Eleanor Hoskins donated $50. Thank you, Eleanor. It's awesome. Kimberly A. Murphy donated $25. Thank you so much. Kimberly. Claudia M. Thompson donated $50. Claudia was awesome. Thank you. Margaret Daniel donated $25. Margaret. Thank you. Anonymous donor, $50. Thank you so much. Winston Lambright, $100. Thank you so much. Winston. Ms. Melissa G Basile Basil. $23. Thank you so much, Melissa Kelly Flores $10. Thank you so much, Kelly. It's awesome. Another anonymous donor, $50. Thank you so much. Amanda Davis donated $50. Thank you, Amanda. Jerry Stevens donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Jerry another anonymous donor, $50. Thank you so much. Jennifer Swansky donated $100. Thank you so much, Jennifer Michelle Martin donated $25. Thank you, Michelle Marie Cooper donated $14. Thank you, Marnie Michael Haley donated $20. Thank you, Michael. Jamie Patterson donated $60. Thank you so much, Jamie Krista Long donated $50. Thank you so much, Krista Angela Allen donated $25. Thank you so much, Angela Mary Templin A hundred dollars. Thank you so much. Mary Sue Dunn from Ireland donated $5. Thank you so much, Sue. Hope you're doing well in Ireland. Carolyn Lipscomb donated 25. Thank you so much, Karen Stephanie Zama Kona donated $50. Thank you so much, Stephanie Rachel Montgomery donated $10. Thank you so much. Missy M. Barnes donated $35. Thank you, Missy. Kenneth Mays donated $50. Thank you SO much, Kenneth Tammy Balloon Bates donated $5. Thank you SO much, Tammy Robin Burch donated $10. Thank you SO much, Robin Debbie Watts donated 25. Thank you, Debbie Karen M. Yates donated 500. Thank you SO much. Carrie Ann M. Yates Carlos Bracera that donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Carlos Lacey Chapman donated 200. Thank you so much, Lacey Angie Crawford donated $5. Thank you so much, Angie Kevin Davis donated $33. Thank you so much, Kevin another anonymous donor, gave $11. Thank you so much. Debbie Hinchcliffe donated 25. Thank you, Debbie Linea Bell donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Linear Lisa Marks donated 200. Thank you so much, Lisa Stephen Reed donated $50. Thank you so much, Stephen Nathan Pontier, my buddy, donated $20. Thank you, Nathan Connie Danger donated $10. Thank you, Connie Thomas Davenport, my attorney, donated $100. Thank you, Tommy Judy Serapos donated $35. Thank you so much. Alicia Jones donate 25. Thank you so much, Alicia Shannon Kersop donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Shannon Anonymous donor donated a hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Kelsey Michelle Pryor donated $10. Thank you so much, Kelsey Lori Booth donated 25. Thank you so much, Lori anonymous donor, gave $5. Thank you so much. Another anonymous donor gave $35. Thank you so much. Diane Covert gave $21. Thank you so much, Diane Darla Croson gave $500. Thank you so much, Ms. Dollar. Caitlin Daly gave $20. Thank you, Caitlin. So Much. Ruthie Doer Sweetie. A hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Sarah Turning Zoon is it? Turners in gave $50. Thank you so much, Sarah. Kelsey Osment gave 25. Thank you so much, Kelsey. Alyssa Osment gave $30. Thank you so much. Alyssa. Another anonymous donor gave $5. Thank you so much. Joshua Ebar brother. Thank you. $50. I appreciate it. Kenzie Acres. $10. Thank you so much. Kenzie. Laura Warnke 15. Thank you. And I appreciate it. Anna Edwards 25. Thank you, Ms. Hannah Leah Banco. 25. Thank you, Leah. Ben Hink $30. Thank you, Ben. Macy Andrenio. $50. Thank you so much. Macy Madeline Malone. $20. Thank you so much. Courtney Davis. $50. Thank you, Ms. Courtney. Amanda Adams. $50. Thank you, Amanda. Mallory Haynes. $25. Thank you, Mallory. Ellara Sear $20. Thank you, Ms. Ella. Anonymous donor gave $50. Thank you, anonymous. Tyler Gardner gave $50. Thank you, Tyler. Jordan P. Gave $20. Thank you, Jordan. Jordan Price gave $20. Thank you, Ms. Jordan. Stella Johnson and the. That's. That's gonna be Haley's sister. Y' all gave $23. Thank you so much, Stella. And another Anonymous donor gave $20. Now look, I know that was a minute. It took a minute to read those names. But you know what? They deserve it. And we're going for justice for Haley. And I love and appreciate each and every one of y'. All. Please, please, please share the GoFundMe. We need to get the evidence from the rest of the money so they can complete this. We can push, continue to push and fight for justice. Hashtag justice for Haley. And I'm Woody Overton. You host the Real Life Real Crown the podcast until next time or ever. Don't let me catch you down on Murder by peace. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney prior to or during any question. If you can't afford one, the court appoint one for you. Do you understand your rights?
- [68:07]
Scott Roeder
When the wolf is at your go you running over that's for sure. You already know all about you cut you down no matter about you
- [68:31]
Woody Overton
now
- [68:32]
Scott Roeder
you better watch the light.
- [68:54]
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