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Thank you. Hello, everybody, and welcome to this episode of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. As always, I'm your host, Woody Overton. And continuing with the state versus Scott Peterson scorched death penalty phase. And I know, I mean, it's kind of interesting anyway, but it's just so stupid that they are putting all these people that, I mean, hadn't seen Scott in 30 years and whatever, whatever, whatever. You get the gist of it if you're listening to it, right?

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With a $50 discount at the Home2 Suites, which is a new hotel in Hammond, Louisiana. And you can get that price, I think, for like four nights or five nights or whatever, in case you want to come in and enjoy that part of South Louisiana's culture. But let's just roll on with this death penalty phase, which is the stupidest shit I've ever heard. And today is not going to get any better. They're throwing everything against the wall to save Scott's life, I guess. I mean, I guess they got nothing to lose. But again, if I was around jury, I would want to throw up in my mouth on half of this shit. So we're going to continue on December 6. Again, 2004. The direct examination is by the infamous Mark Gerrigos. And it's going to be of. He's going to be interviewing Ms. Sandra Bertram. So let's just dive right into this glory, right? So Gary goes, good morning, Ms. Bertram. We asked you to come to come and testify. Called you up, asked you if you would, said you not only would, but you wanted to. Is that correct, Bertram? Absolutely. Gary goes, how is it that you know Scott Peterson? Bertram? I work for Chuck Courtney. I've worked for him since 84. I've known Scott since he was 12 years old. I knew his dad prior to that at another golf club that I worked at. So over the course of 30 years, I've known Their family. Gar goes, okay, did you, I mean, you heard, I guess, Mr. Courtney testify that Scott worked there? Did he work with you? BERTRAM yes, he worked out in the back room and did all the menial things that we'd have the kids do. And he was always a pleasure. Interesting. Very smart young man. Gary goes, how well would you say you got to know him? Bertram Very well. Saw him daily. Gargas on a daily basis. Bertram huh? He would come to work at the shop and I knew him first when he was about 12 years old. He used to hang out at the golf shop. He and his dad would play golf in the evenings after Lee got off of work, and he and Jackie would come over and they would all play golf in the afternoon. Jackie was shopping a little bit and, and I'm, I'm a buyer for the golf shop. And so we would visit and talk about family and kids and got to know each other. And I like, like I said, I knew Lee prior to that at another club that I was at. And it was, it was really nice to see him to be a member there. When I moved to there, you know, relocated. Here it goes. When you first met him, how long had you been there at the club when you first met Scott? BERTRAM I would say probably almost immediately because I think I met Lee. I saw Lee the first day I came to work down there, and I was pleasantly surprised to see a familiar face. Gargoyles. When he was hired, do you remember approximately how old he was? Was he in high school at that point? Bertram no, I do not, you know, I do not remember what age we usually get them. About 15, 16 years old, probably around 16 years of age. Gary goes, what kind of things do you remember about Scott? Bertram Only good things. I rack my brain throughout this whole thing trying to think of one single negative thing, and I can't think of one single negative thing about this child or his family. I'm a mom, I have four children and I have five grandchildren. And you notice that about children, if there are good kids or bad kids or arrogant kids or what have you. Scott was a pleasure. He was always a pleasure. He was very quiet kid and I'm so gregarious and I so used to draw that out of him sometimes. And I've, I heard the comments that he's non responsive. Well, Scott Peterson is not non responsive. He and his dad have had that personality where they are soft spoken, quiet, and you pretty much have to draw the person, the personality. You got to draw, you got to draw it out of them. Here. GUYS does he when he was working with you or for you in the doing these tasks, did he exhibit what you would characterize as positive qualities? BERTRAM oh, absolutely. We always thought Scott would become something good and complete and wonderful. GARY Guys, what kind of things did he do that you were impressed by a man his age, something? BERTRAM he was never angry. He always responded when we asked him to do something. He was always pleasant. He was so respectful of his parents. Anytime I was around him, he was very respectful of me. And that's hard when you're there, when you're the I've always been the only woman in the situation of all men and so, you know, the kids can pick up one kind of a male chauvinistic thing going on. Scott was never like that. He was always very kind, very considerate and very respectful. GARRUS When I talked to you about him yesterday and again today, you had mentioned that he that he had a maturity about him. BERTRAM Always it was like a young, you know, an old man in a young man's body. Yeah, very sincere, very soft spoken. Gary goes did he have was he arrogant? BERTRAM Never. GARY Guys Was he respectful towards others? BERTRAM Always. GARY Guys did he defer to the authority in the sense that if he was working for you or for Mr. Courtney, would he listen to them, both of you, as he was instructed? BERTRAM yes. Care guys Is there would you say that at some point, even though there was a difference obviously in age, did you consider him to be a friend? BERTRAM Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I sort of take these kids under my wing. They worked for us for a number of years, usually, and I've known most of them since they were they were also kids and I see them grow up and become young professionals. Would you say that maybe he was even a little bit shy? BERTRAM maybe he was shy. He was certainly quiet. Yeah. Guys, do you know why we're here today? BERTRAM Yes, I do. GARGASS what the jury is being asked by the prosecution is to put him to death. BERTRAM yes, sir. Gear GUYS and do you have an opinion about that? Any reason why you think he shouldn't be put to death? BERTRAND I can't even imagine that happening. I do not believe that Scott is guilty of this crime. I don't believe that he could have done this. The person that I knew, the family that I knew, the child that I saw daily, he could not have done this. I do not want to see him put to death. GARY Guys, do you think the jury's only choice at this point, because we're in what's called the penalty phase. They only have two choices. They can say put him to death, or they can say life without the possibility of parole, which means he never sees the light of day. Do you think that if they choose either of these options, hopefully choose the option of life without parole, do you think that he would make a positive contribution? Wherever he is, wherever he's housed, Bertram Scott will always make a positive contribution, no matter in what situation he's in. I think as the years go on, you're going to find that out. GARY Guys, do you have any doubt about that? BERTRAM I have absolutely no doubt about that. I wish I could do more or could have done more. There it goes. Thank you. I have no further questions. Come on, man, get the out of here. The why don't you find somebody to serve them french fries at Burger King one time and see what they thought about it, right? This goes on and on and on. So next, y'all, we're going to roll right into it. And this guy's name is John Latham, and he's actually Scott's uncle. This should be interesting. And then we're still in the penalty phase, and it's still December 6, 2004. But this time, our good old friend, defense attorney Pat Harris, is doing the cross examination. Let's see if I can get my voice right for this one, y'all. Good morning, Mr. Latham, some background. I just want to go through sort of your connection with the Peterson family with Scott. So first of all, you are Jackie Peterson's older brother, Is that right? LATHAM that's correct. Harris, would you tell the jury a little bit about you had how many brothers and sisters? LATHAM well, I have one sister and two brothers, and I'm the oldest of the four of us. HARRIS and who is next in line? LATHAM Next in line is my brother Patrick, who's 13 months younger then my sister and then our baby brother. Well, not a baby anymore, but the young one.

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Harris so it's you, then there's Patrick, then there's Jackie, and then there's Bob, is that right? LATHAM that's correct. HARRIS and Jackie, how much younger than you? LATHAM I guess five years. She tells us the same age, I think for many years somewhere in that area. HARRIS where did you where were you born? LATHAM I was born in San Diego, California. HARRIS At a very early age, was there a tragedy in your family? LATHAM I'd say there was a tragedy in our family. HARRIS what happened? LATHAM Our father, he was martyred in a robbery when I was five. PARIS your father owned his own business? LATHAM he did. HARRIS he was robbed and killed. LATHAM he was robbed of his own business place and I was the oldest of the four of us. HARRIS how old were you when he was murdered? LATHAM I was five. HARRIS how old was Jackie at the time? LATHAM she would have been very young, younger than I by five years, I guess. She was a baby. HARRIS after your father was murdered, your mother well, let me ask you this. Your mother had a medical condition, is that right? LATHAM she developed a medical condition, I think, from the stress of my father's death. HARRIS what was that medical condition? LATHAM it was it's a fairly rare skin disease called sceleoderma, where your skin deteriorates and becomes brittle and it cracks and she just progressively got worse then until she passed away from that disease. HARRIS for most of after your father died, for most of her life, was she bedridden? LATHAM she was. HARRIS at that point, at some point, because of our situation, were you put into an orphanage? LATHAM we were. My mom tried to take care of us initially after my father's death, and she couldn't do that with four of us and work and try to make things happen. As best as I recall, certain things I do remember about that time in my life. But there is other things that you know that I don't. But she eventually put us in this orphanage with the Catholic sisters at Nazareth Nazareth House in San DIEGO at the mission there. HARRIS and you stayed there until you were held? LATHAM well, it was a school that started, I think k I remember young kids there, maybe not kindergarten, but the eighth grade was the highest grade there. From from there you had to go to school, you know, you went to high school. HARRIS now, you have had sort of an interesting life. What did you do after you got out of high school? LATHAM well, when I got out of high school, I started working for the city of San Diego, the aquatics division. We grew up near the beach and we were around the water all the time. So it was it was a good job. I did all kinds of jobs. I think all of our family worked at an early age and developed, you know, good work ethics and habits. And so I worked for the city aquatic division, gradually became a lifeguard there and a full time lifeguard while I was going to City College after I completed high school. HARRIS did you then move on to Colorado? LATHAM I did. HARRIS what did you do there? LATHAM I got a real interest in scheme and so I left the area that I was living in and moved to Colorado. From that point, I got drafted into the military and I spent two years in the military. HARRIS what'd you do in the military? LATHAM I was in a special forces group. That's what I was in. HARRIS after you got out of the military, I know you spent some time at Cape Canaveral, Florida. Lame. I did. When I got out of the military, I had a clearance that allowed me to easily work on the Saturn, the Apollo project, which was the first moonshot thing at at the time. So I was fortunate to work at Cape Canaveral and I spent a year and a half working at Cape Canaveral and downrange in the Bahamas. HARRIS I know at some point after that you migrated to Alaska, is that right? LATHAM After a year and a half of working there, I had the opportunity to go to Alaska and go hunting there. And hunting was always a passion to me. It's something that I developed an interest in pretty much on my own in high school. And so there was an opportunity and I made enough money and I could do something like that, so I did that. HARRIS how old were you at that time? LATHAM well, I was I'd say I was early 20s, 23 or 24. Harris you're there today, is that right? LATHAM that's correct. I live there as we speak. HARRIS Stayed there ever since. LATHAM yes. HARRIS what is it you do in Alaska? LATHAM we have a bed and breakfast guiding business. My wife and I Our family, I say our family, our girls, they have always worked with us and for us. And we got big game hunting, we got fishing in the summertime, and we operated as a BNB in the wintertime. HARRIS what's the name of the town? LATHAM the name of the town is Yakutat, Alaska. HARRIS what part of Alaska is that? LATHAM it's in the southeastern, almost exactly between Juneau and Cordova. Harris, you mentioned children. How many children do you have? LATHAM I had four children. HARRIS and what are their names? LATHAM. Well, I have three now. I lost them. We lost a boy, 23 years old. Harris but what are the names of the three that are living? LATHAM the three that are. Well, one of them is with us here, Rachel, Anna and Jennifer, three girls. Harris, @ some point you made a decision while your children were in junior high to move them back to California, Is that true? LATHAM that's correct. We live in a small village. It's a native, primarily native village. It is a secluded place with no road system to it and the school system as good as it is, it was limited and we wanted our children to have a little more education, hoping to go on to college. So we brought them down and gave them the opportunity, which was an opportunity, indecision on their part, to attend school in San Luis Obispo. HARRIS where exactly did you move them? LATHAM well, we moved to Morro Bay. We rented a place there in the wintertime, but we still had to maintain our business and try to keep that going. So we would come down with them in the wintertime. And eventually we started coming back down, spending several months in the winter, which is our off season. HARRIS when they weren't living with you, where did they Excuse me, Let me start at the beginning. Rachel is the oldest, right? LATHAM Rachel is the youngest. HARRIS oh, youngest. Where did Rachel live while she was in St. Louis? Obispo. Latham she lived with Lee and Jackie part of the time and part of the school years. HARRIS your relationship with Jackie when you were growing up, you have separated for a good part of that time, is that right? LATHAM we had a scattered childhood just because of the timing of ages, you know, were different. I graduated and went on to high school. She was still at the school orphanage there. And so we weren't very, very close. And in some ways we just kind of pursued our own things and we all worked at different jobs and things. And it was later on, as we started having families that were renewed, like, I think it was very common things for many people to do. You, as you get older, you have family and you tend to get back together when you weren't so close, you know, when you were younger. HARRIS Was Jackie instrumental trying to bring family back together? LATHAM she is probably the heartbeat of our family. HARRIS you by the time you had left your daughter Rachel to live with her, you had reconnected, more or less? LATHAM that's correct. Because of Jackie, she contacted everybody. She's always been the mover and the shaker in the family, if you will, to try to get reunions together and get everybody and always extended herself to everything along with Lee. But she's the only one that would do the calling. And you bring this and you bring that. HARRIS I think you told me she never misses a birthday. She always sends a card, that kind of thing. LATHAM she never missed mine or my wife's or my daughters. HARRIS the time she spent with your daughter while she was in Morro Bay, you had the chance to be able to spend some time with Jackie also because you would come down and visit, is that right? HARRIS? LATHAM that's correct. HARRIS and the more you got to sort of reconnect with your sister, what did you find out about her as far as being a person? What kind of person was she? LATHAM well, she's a sweetheart. She's been a sweetheart to her family. I've never she is one of those rare people that rarely says a bad thing about anybody, even if she doesn't like them. She's stoic about things and thinks about things. She is absolutely delightful. She would do anything for anybody. I mean, someone on the street would have a as good a dinner at her house as I would probably. HARRIS when you say she's stoic, is that somewhat of a family trait from your side of the family? LATHAM well, I've seen that in her. I've seen it in myself. Although we do get emotional at times, we've had a lot of things happen in our lives and you move on, you try to sort it out. And I would say she's not a whiner or a whiner or a crier. HARRIS as you reconnected with Jackie, you also came to know her son, Scott, is that right? LATHAM that's true. HARRIS how would you what would be the opportunity that you would have to see? SCOTT I know you weren't I mean, you were in Alaska most of the time. LATHAM that's correct. So my time with Scott, it's not as much as other parts of the family because of where we live, but I would see Scott and I'm naming Scott since he was born and their whole family, as much as we could get together, we would 10, 15 years ago, our biggest time spent together was probably, I mean, they would make or they would try to make annual trips to Alaska with all the family, all the boys, and this would be usually over Thanksgiving where we'd have a chance to catch up on things for the whole year, that kind of thing. And quite frankly, up to that point, not a lot of us had a lot of money and it costs a lot of money to go take the whole family back and forth. We were all working, all their kids were working and would spend a part of their money to get up there, help themselves get up there. And we would have just a really nice week bird shooting generally. And then I would see Scott when I was there and when I was in San Luis Obispo, as I said, one of her daughters, the oldest one, when she starts school in San Luis Obispo, she was a year ahead of the other one. So one was in grade school in Los Osos, which is very near San Luis Obispo. JUDGE go back to question and answer. Harris, you are actually when your daughter Rachel moved to San Luis Obispo, that was a time period that Scott was actually going to school there, is that right? LATHAM that's correct. HARRIS so you had a chance when you were coming to visit a little more chance to interact with Scott at that time as well? LATHAM I did. Harris you told me last night how there was a problem with interacting because he was, well, I mean, whoops. What was he generally doing? He was usually working, usually a couple of jobs and he was we would, we would get together for dinner, we where he worked, we would go there for dinner, we were there. He would come to our house on a regular basis, take the girls places, help out in that capacity when we were here. HARRIS when you watch the relationship between Scott and his mother, what comments come to mind? LATHAM well, it's a very loving family as far as I'm concerned. He loves his mother, loves his father. I think we have close knit families. We didn't have a lot of family when we were young, so I think maybe that's part of it. But they have been very close and he's always been very respectful to me. I've heard this said several times before, but I've never seen any disrespect of any kind or arrogance from Scott. HARRIS he said he would come up they would come up for these trips to Alaska to see you. When he was a young boy, did he did he get teased a lot by his brothers? LATHAM oh, they put it on him. He took it pretty well. He participated and he did his share of loading and unloading all the kind of things you do when you're having fun. A certain, a lot of work that you know that's involved. HARRIS Always going to work. LATHAM he was always in there. HARRIS you mentioned to me as we were coming to court today, something had come to mind about your wife when your wife, I mean, did you have the opportunity to meet Lacey? LATHAM we knew Lacey, yes, we had dinner with Scott and Lacey several occasions. And as always when we were down here, Lacey was never at our home. She never came to Alaska. But we would see her on a pretty regular basis. She was in and out of my sister's house and out of Jackie's house all the time. They were very close.

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Very close, did Jackie treat her as almost like a daughter? LATHAM exactly like a daughter. HARRIS I was mentioning you had mentioned about a story of Lacey and Scott involving your wife having to go to the hospital. Could you tell us about that? LATAM well, it's just one of those things that I think most family members would do. But my wife was here alone. I was following her coming down here to take care of things for a couple weeks in Alaska and she ended up having to go to the emergency room. Jackie and Lee were gone. They tried to call him and Scott got the call and he came over for Lacey and he took her to the emergency room in Morro Bay or Losos I'm not sure which hospital she went to. And then he took Lacey home, and then he came back and spent hours, several hours with her, and he gave her a ride. Ended up. She ended up not staying there. Harris, what you had seen did that generally fit Scott's personality, the type of person that he was? Latham. He was always very helpful. Harris, you've been sitting here in this courtroom today. You have obviously heard us talk about why we're here. And I'll ask you the question as well. Do you feel, do you feel like Scott should be given life in prison as opposed to the death penalty? Latham. I do. Harris. Why? Latham. I just feel that this young man, I will, for one. I. I don't believe he's guilty. I know he's guilty by trial, but in my heart, I cannot believe that I have known this guy. I've known his family. I just can't believe that. And I would not like to see him die. It would tear our family apart. Harris, thank you. I appreciate that. And that's all I have. And y'all, come on, man. His mom and dad weren't around to take his aunt to the hospital. He took her to the hospital. When he went to Alaska to go hunting, he helped load and unload shit. The, you know the part about how many brothers and sisters do you have? I get Jackie's included in that. The part about them living in an orphanage, the dudes in special Forces, and you know, what the fuck, right? The do you. And then, of course, they ask each one of them at the end, you know, do you think he should get the death penalty or do you think he should get life in prison? Or do you think if he gets life in prison, he could live a good life and help other people? What the fuck you think they're gonna get up there and say, no, him, he cut the baby out of Lacey's belly, he murdered her or vice versa. And I think he should be put to death. He's a piece of. No, you're not gonna get that from his uncle. You're not gonna get that from his golf coach, who only became a golf. Didn't even know how to play golf when they anointed him golf coach. He's not gonna get that from the. Worked with at the golf pro shop. You're not going to get that from his high school classmate he gave rides to. So scorched. Again, if I'm on the jury and I'm listening to it over and over again, I mean, who gives a what this guy did or any of them did what their history is. What did you do as a kid? Was your family tight? What does that have to do with Scott Peterson murdering his fucking wife and killing his kid? Absolutely nothing. Right. I don't get it. Scorched, scorched, scorched. And I don't know. But we're going to continue it until we're done. We're not that far from being done, thankfully. But you're listening to it. The numbers are growing. Everybody loves the Scott Peterson story and I don't know, Innocence Project in Los Angeles. They took the case on because it's high profile, no other reason. If this had been some dude that murders wife and kid that didn't have all the news media coverage and all the shit that this case got, then you never heard about it because I guarantee you there's 10,000 plus of them in the penal system in the state of California that done acts at least as bad as this or even worse. You never hear about them because it wasn't a story back in the day. Right? So Scott Peterson, it is what it is. And boy, they better pray to God that tape doesn't come back where when the prosecution, like I told you again last week, man, they fucked up. They. They really, really messed some things up. But it is what it is. Scorch State versus Scott Peterson. And I'm done with it for this week. Thank you for liking and listening and sharing. I appreciate and love each and every one of y'all. Y'all look justiceforhalie by this time and I'm pre recording this early, by the time you hear this, we should be at the wrap up stage and we. I need you to listen to Ms. Barbara, Estella and Tyler ask you for your help. It's going to be important. Wouldn't it be wonderful if we get justice for Haley? That's what it's all about, right? And but anyway that's going to be concluding and thank you all for tuning into true crime Time forward with Cindy and I. That's the numbers don't lie. It's a great show. It's totally different than everything else we do and I don't know that. Once again, Saturday, July 19th, if it's not sold out already taking a stage. Southeastern Louisiana University in the city of Hammond, Louisiana. And we got lifers already bought tickets from all over the United States that are coming in and we do have rooms blocked off at the home to Suites Hilton new property a year old in Hammond. Hammond is a great town. Some of the best food and best atmosphere. It's chill. It's a great place. Of course, the university is there. I think it's the second, probably second largest university in the state of Louisiana. Either way, we're going to be there. We'll be there for the weekend. Going to do a live, raw and unscripted show. Won't be in a bar room like the crew bashes have been, but there will be alcohol and there will be food. But it's a theater. It's a. This place was built for a dude to get on stage and everybody has a great seat. Everybody gets to hear what I'm going to be laying down. And that may. Some people may not like that, but that's okay. Brawl and unscripted. And I'll give the warning before I start. And the VIP event follows, right? And first, drinks on me. Ms. Barbara Blunt's case, y'all. Please don't ever forget about it. Please continue to call on your tips. And I know I don't talk about this enough that I still probably get one or two tips a week. Maybe now. One a week now. But every time I mention it, the her case, somebody always calls in something else. And don't think it's, you know, that we're not doing anything with it. I can promise you, whatever you call in, either it's already been done or we went out and did it. And I'm including, I'm talking about they've gone out and dug up some spots and things that tips that were called in and interviewed some people and tips that were called in. And they. The one difference on this case, in Haley's case and Courtney Coco's case and Mary Pusho's case is the sheriff wants this case solved. Right. The law enforcement professionals at Livingston Parish Sheriff's office want Ms. Barbara Blunt's case solved. It's gone on too long, y'all. In May. Jeez Louise. This next month. And it's her murder bursary. And no, never found her body. But I guarantee you she was murdered. We need one straw to break the camel's back. Somebody out there has it, okay? They did not abduct her, murder her and conceal her body without someone knowing something. So please continue to call it in. Lopa, Louisiana, Oregon Procurement Agency nonprofit. You know, it's my jam. There's such a group of fantastic people and they help to not only get people to sign up to be organ donors, but when the process actually goes through and the hero organs are collected to be distributed to other people to help save their lives, they they help these families, they help them during the process, they help them after the process. Like Missy Jewel, you know, still works with him close to this day. And her son Reese. He was a hero and I got to hunt with one. One the young man from New Iberia. I got to hunt with him in Wisconsin. He is. I got to sit in the blind with him, touching shoulder to shoulder. And the only reason I got to hunt with him is because he was alive. Because Reese was a hero. Because of Lopa and Organ donor so Louisiana Organ Procurement Agency, you don't have to be a lifer from Louisiana to sign up to be an organ donor. You could be a lifer from Zimbabwe. Go to lopa.org, take two minutes, fill out the questionnaire, become a hero. Give the gift of life and sight and all the other great things those people do. And I'm Woody Overton, your host of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. And until next time or ever, don't let me catch you down on Murder by Peace.

Police Officer (51:40)

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you. A court of law. You got a right to an attorney prior to enduring any question that you can't afford. One the quarter point one for you. Do you understand your rights?

Wolf Narrator (52:02)

And the wolf is at your home. You're running over that's for sure. Already knows all about you.

Geico Ad (52:21)

Cut you.

Wolf Narrator (52:21)

Down no matter about you now you better walk.

Credit Card Advocacy (52:49)

Warning this episode Americans love using their credit cards the most secure and hassle free way to pay. But D.C. politicians want to change that with the Durbin Marshall credit card bill. This bill lets corporate mega stores pick how your credit card is processed, allowing them to use untested payment networks that jeopardize your data security and rewards. Corporate megastores will make more money and you pay the price. Tell Congress to guard your card because Americans lose when politicians choose.

TurboTax Advertiser (53:18)

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