Woody Overton (0:00)

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Patrick Harris (0:24)

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Woody Overton (1:00)

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney prior to it during any question. If you can't afford one, the court of appoint one for you. Do you understand your rights?

Patrick Harris (1:22)

And the wolf is at your door. You're running over that's for sure. Already knows all about you. Cut you down no matter about you. Now you better watch the.

Woody Overton (2:04)

Foreign this episode of Real Life Real Crime. The podcast may contain descriptions of acts of violence or that of a sexual nature and should be for people that are 18 years or older. He my warning people. I do not get the facts of these cases off of the Internet or for some television show. The facts I'm retelling you were presented to me by the victims of the crimes or the perpetrators who committed the crimes against the victims. My descriptions of the crime scenes, what I saw with my own two eyes. If you're going to get offended, please turn this podcast off now. Thank you. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Real Life Real Crime, the podcast. As always, I'm your host Woody Overton and today we're going to be continuing with the prosecution's closing and the State versus Scott Peterson scorched. Then we're going to dig right into the defense side of what they've got to say about this winter winter chicken dinner as they try to save his life. Right? So let's just get into it now. Prosecutions continue into the jury death penalty phase as to why Scott should be put to death. Let's talk about that now. Let's talk about 116 days. That's about 116 days. An eternity of not knowing. 39 defense witnesses can never take away what you heard from Sharon Rocha. 39 defense witnesses will never touch her pain. 39 defense witnesses could never take away what she endured for 116 days. They will never repair that loss she felt because the trust that she had was taken away because there was a monster in her midst. A picture is worth a thousand words. You look at that picture and you look at Sharon Rocha and you remember that picture. When you think about her testimony from this witness stand, about what she went through not being able to sleep because she was afraid that she had missed a phone call from Lacey on the first day, the fifth day, the tenth day. Remember what she said about being scared and frightened for Lacey because it was cold that night and she wanted a blanket for Lacey because she knew she would be cold. 116 days of grieving, anguish, torment. Imagine what these families were going through in the entire time someone was at the vigil who knew the answer. One that was this. One that was kind, gentle, honest, sincere, good golfer, fun loving. What was Scott doing, y' all. Then they played the recording with him acting like he was in Paris on the phone at the candlelight vigil for his wife and unborn baby. Back to it. When everyone else grieved, when everyone else hoped, prayed for return of Lacey and Connor, the man who knew where they were laughed and lied. That's not a man that's deserving of your sympathy. He is the worst kind of monster, and he takes away from his victims. Remember the victims. There's a famous quote from a book. When one person kills another, there's an immediate revulsion at the nature of the crime. But in a time so short as to seem indecent to the members of the personal family, the dead person ceases to exist as an identifiable figure to those individuals in the community of good will and empathy, warmth and compassion, Only one of the key actors in that drama remains with whom to commiserate, and that is always the criminal. The dead person ceases to be part of everyday reality, ceases to exist. She is only a figure in a historic event. We inevitably turn away from the past toward the ongoing reality. And the ongoing reality is the criminal. Trapped, anxious now helpless, isolated, often badgered and bewildered, he usurps the compassion that is just violently his victims do. He steals his victim's moral constituency along with her life. And remember Lacey and Connor. Remember, when you look at the life that was, the life that was taken and the life of Connor that never got to be. When you imagine Lacy wanting a Baby never having the chance. When you look at the family, remember each and every day that was taken away from them. Remember the victims. Remember graduations that will never come, smiles that will never be shared. Gatherings, Christmases. Remember each and every one of those that will never, ever be the same. Remember Lacy. Remember who she was, the people that loved her, the big brother who misses her. Celebrations that can never be shared. The students that grieve at her loss or couldn't sleep because they couldn't find her either. Holidays. All of these things. All of this. All of these things. Friendships. Birthdays. Ripped away by an evil man. Mother's days that Lacey will never be able to share with her son. She'll never get to see Connor grow up. They will only be remembered in the pictures. And remember how horrible that is for Sharon, because Sharon only has these pictures to remember her grandson. So when you weigh those scales, when you balance those against each other and you think about what those 39 witnesses have told you, there is no mitigation for that. There is no goodwill that takes away what he did. So when you look at these pictures, that's all that's left. Don't give the sympathy that's due Lacey or Lacey and Connor to the defendant. Public versus Private Scott. That's what came together on Christmas Eve. Private Scott can no longer hide from outside scrutiny. He is no longer surrounded by people who wanted to believe. There was that chart that we saw up here of some of the witnesses showing Scott's life. It stops on December 24, 2002, which is poetic, because that's the day Scott Peterson forfeited his life. That's the day that his timeline stopped. Scott Peterson was bothered. He wanted a change. He wanted out. He wanted to go back to France or Monte Carlo. He didn't want to be tied down with a baby in Modesto. Lacey was an anchor around his neck, so he put one around hers. He murdered Lacey and Connor. And this from somebody who comes from a privileged, somewhat spoiled background. Ask yourself, will this crime be worse if he was poor? He was ignorant. No. This is somebody who had everything but threw it away, because that's just who he is. He had a plan, and he executed it. He deserves no less. When the defendant sent Lacey and Connor to the bottom of the bay, he made a big brother feel guilty for the rest of his life because he wasn't there to protect his sister from the person who promised to love, honor, and protect her. He took away dreams. He took away memories. He took away all possibilities. Scott Peterson, when he murdered Lacy and Connor. He killed more than them. He killed the spirit of those around him, around Lacey. How is that defensible? How is that? How can you lessen that? Lacey and Connor, though, will live on. They will not be destroyed in the memories of those that love them. No matter how much the defendant tried to dispose of them, treated them as garbage, dumped them in the bay, their memories will live on. It would be an insult to suggest otherwise. Sharon made this statement when she was testifying. The defendant tried as best that he could to dispose of his wife and unborn son. He hoped that they would never be found and in a month's time, it would all be gone. He'd go back to doing what he wanted to do to return a judgment of death. Each of you must be persuaded that the aggravating circumstances are so substantial in comparison with the mitigating circumstances that it warrants death instead of life without parole. That's another instruction that the judge is going to give you. Let's talk about that. What really are the mitigating factors here? What is Scott Peterson all about? That he could be pen pals from jail? That he can write teenagers letters and give them the Dear Abby advice? Teach them how to have secrets from their parents? That he can have. He can read books and discuss them with people on the outside? That he can learn how to better his chess playing. Remember, these are things that Lacey and Connor can't do, things that Sharon Rocha would love to have an opportunity to do. Remember what he said to Amber and y' all? They play a recording where he professes love for and everything else. I can look at your picture and I can kiss it. I can feel you in my arms. Life is not appropriate. For Scott, death is. Life is not appropriate because he can have memories. He can have photographs. He can have dreams. He can have all of the things that he took away from Lacy and Connor. He can have all of the things that he robbed from that family. He deserves death. There's no way around it. That family was reduced to remembering and looking at photographs. Should Scott's punishment be worse than theirs? Because when you think about this, and I want you to think about what he did, I want you to think about his cruelty, callous act, the lack of compassion and concern. 116 days of no one, no one but him. Leaving his wife's body to rot at the bottom of the ocean, leaving his son to be found as trash and debris. That is not something that should be forgiven. That is not something that should be rewarded by sparing his life. That is not something that should be. Boom. That is not something that should take away from the pain and suffering. Sharon's words will ring out and haunt us. Lacey didn't have arms to hold her baby. There's no other way around it. It's a hard choice, but it's the right choice. Someone who shows no mercy, so heartless, so cruel to his own family, deserves death. When you weigh these factors, when you balance these scales, you'll find the factors in aggravation, the circumstances of this crime versus the mitigation that the defense has offered. There is no equal. Hey, lifers. Woody Overton here and I want to talk to y' all about something that's come up around our house more than once lately. Hormones. Now, I can't speak from personal experience on this one, but I've seen it firsthand with Cindy. There were days she'd be feeling drained, overwhelmed, even a little off. We couldn't figure out why. She was eating right, taking care of herself, getting things done like always. But something just wasn't clicking. Turns out it wasn't just stress. It wasn't just being tired. She took this free two minute quiz from a company called Happy Mammoth and it gave her some serious insight into what might be going on with her hormone levels. After answering just a few simple questions, she got personalized breakdown. 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Better for you, better for the planet. Head to avocadomatress.com today to save 10% on all bedding and 50% on on clearance. Betting Avocado is a dream of being better. Aggravation so substantially outweighs the mitigation. The only appropriate just verdict is a verdict of death. Don't let the defense make you feel guilty about doing the right thing. Vote for death for Scott Peterson. And remember Lacey and Connor. All right y' all. That's pretty powerful in prosecution. Rest. Okay, now we're going to go to the final penalty phase argument by Our guy, Mr. Patrick Harris and see if I could pull his accent back up in my head. I think I did them a little southern style right? See all you can imagine the courtrooms quiet AF sure there's not a dry eye in the house. And then Pat Harris gets up, the defense attorney for Scott Peterson, one of them, Mark Garrigos being the other. And this is December 9, 2004. And the judge tells them to proceed. Thank you, Judge. I started actually talking public speaking when I was 10 years old, and I always just enjoyed it. It was something that came very natural. I think now they say you're a precocious child when you do it. Back then you were considered obnoxious if you talked all the time or if you want to be in front of a group. And that's the way I was. I would never understand when my friends or people around me would say, scared to talk to death, scared to talk, scared to get in front of a group. I have butterflies. I'm nervous about it. Never have been. And so for 30 years, I've talked in the public and done speeches and been in courtrooms, and that, well, it's just never happened. It happened this morning for the first time. I sort of understood what people feel when they have to talk in front of a crowd, in front of a group, because I guess of the Normandy, it sort of hit home. We're talking about a life and death situation. Now. I'm just going to start by apologizing. If I'm a little low or my voice cracks or shakes, I have to tell you, the enormity of it is really incredible. So I apologize for that in advance. I haven't had a chance to talk to you at all in this kind of format. And I did want to just start off, you know, just a standard always, for lawyers to come up and thank the jury and thank the participants. But I want it to go up, if I could just go up maybe a step further if you grant me a couple minutes, because this has been an extraordinary trial. It's been an extraordinary nine months. We all know what's been going on outside the courtroom. Everyone you came in was aware of what this was like. It would be like as far as far as the surface atmosphere surrounding it and what was going on outside. And it was interesting because there were a lot of commentators and a lot of people who thought we would talk about this trial and actually thought that this trial could very well break the judicial system. I heard that more than once from different commentators and different lawyers, and it didn't happen. We've managed to get through. We managed to get to this point. And I think that's a credit to a lot of people. A lot of people. I think it's a credit to the judge. He set the right tone from day one, he's always been willing to deal with a different task, the few situations as they arose, and a lot of situations have arisen, and I think he set the tone for it and helped to keep it to a level that's been civil. I think the prosecution team, a lot of lawyers, when they do trials, end up in a very adversarial position. It's very tough because you're screaming and you're yelling and you're fighting for your clients. They believe in their case. I mean, they clearly believe in their case, but they kept it to the confines of the courtroom and in chambers where it was appropriate. And when the argument was finished and the anger was over, they were always cordial and always willing to go out. I can't tell you about my defense part because it's hard for me to talk about when we first took the case. When he first came to me, he said he was thinking about taking the case. I said, you realize you about to become the most hated man in America. He sat me down and he talked about what it was our profession and what it was to be a defense attorney and how noble that is, and everyone has the right. And he's shown courage and I'll always respect. He's also come in here and kept us cordial as well. He developed a good relationship with the prosecutors. He's helped this trial to go as smoothly as it has now. The families, I can't imagine. I can't in my wildest imagination think what they go through. I can't put myself in their place. I don't know the roaches. I do know this about them. They certainly had the opportunity to really turn this thing upside down, go outside and scream, holler and do things that would have really turned this into a major circus. They chose not to. They took the high road, and they've allowed the court to process this court process to continue as it should. The Petersons, again, I can't even talk about that. They are an amazing family. Now, you heard for a week, you heard people talk about the family and what an amazing family they are. And that only touches the tip of the iceberg. Again, they've allowed this process to proceed, and I think in the end, that's a big reason it's worked. There have been a lot of other people involved. There's certainly the Bayless. They've been terrific. The court reporters. Maryland has put up with things that no clerk should have to put up with in terms of disorganization with both sides. And she's Always done it with a smile. Lastly, I come to you. I told you in the beginning, the very first time I got up and closed an opening, actually, we disagree. And I can't change that. What I do know is you've shown a remarkable professionalism that. Well, for example, when we go back in chambers, when we first started talking about how many alternates to bring to the table, and we talked about six, everyone's sort of thinking that's not enough. Because we all, I mean, everyone at table here has been through lengthy trials before. They've been through high pressure and intense cases. And it's just, I mean, you just lose jurors constantly, childcare issues, sickness. And a number of times, you know, you start court 30 minutes late or 45 minutes late because a juror's not present in this case. It's just, I mean, we talked about in chambers numerous times. It's just amazing the way you guys have you showing up on time. If anything, it's usually one of us late or if a sickness has occurred, it's been one of the lawyers or someone that is sick. So I thank you very much for your professionalism because again, it keeps this, this entire trial in the circus is going on outside. It's kept it from coming in here. And I think that's very important. Now, we're here to talk about mitigation. You heard Dave Harris talk about it from the standpoint of putting Scott to death. And that's the ultimate decision we're here to talk about. It's a very gut wrenching process. The entire crime itself, the entire situation occurred. It's tragic. No matter which viewpoints you look at it from. It's tragic, it's gut wrenching and it's emotional. But mitigation is not about emotion. Mitigation is about looking at a man's life and looking at the factors that the state of California tells you you have to look at. We don't have a system in this country that tells you it's an eye for an eye. We don't have that system. Otherwise, every single murder committed would have the death penalty. Every single person convicted of murder would be put to death. We've chosen in the state of California, we've chosen in this country not to do that. Instead, we set up a system. We have a method. We have the law. The law tells us how to make the decision. It's one thing to sit here, as you guys had to do, for four to five months and talk about guilt or innocence and have to deal with that. That's a concept all of us understand. It's a concept that you see not only in the movies and televisions and those kinds of things, but it's a concept some of you who served on juries already know about. It's a concept that's just basic. There is no, there's no basic concept on how to determine life or death. It's not something we're ingrained in. It's not something we sit around and think about. It's unique. And I've told you in the opening you were going to be faced with a task very few people have to deal with, a very unique situation. So we set up the law, we set up the factors. Murder is a horrible crime. It doesn't matter where it's committed. It doesn't matter if it's committed in Modesto, it doesn't matter if it's committed in Redwood City, it doesn't matter if it's committed in New York. It's always, always, when you convict someone of murder, it's always a horrible crime. And it creates ripples. Every single murder, it creates ripples. It doesn't matter if you're dealing with a six year old child in Palo Alto, a major executive in New York City, it always creates ripples. When somebody dies, they're going to be ripples. What we do is we don't decide by the mere fact of there being a murder, of there being a crime. That's not how we decide. We don't just look at emotion and say, this is a horrific crime. What we do is we set up a system. That system was actually talked to you during Bois Dare. Each one of you were questioned, Each one of you were talked to and asked questions. You were asked ahead of time how you would feel if you return a guilty verdict. How do you feel about imposing the death penalty? Now, I mentioned in an opening, I'll show it just again, briefly, Judge Deluci asked you, each and every one of you, and without hearing any mitigating factors, nothing about him, what kind of person is he? Is there anything that makes that crime all by itself so inflammatory to you or so repugnant to you that in your mind, if that's what he did, you have already eliminated life without parole and you would always pick the death penalty. Every single one of you said no. And you said no, that wasn't enough. But that's what you just heard for an hour. How horrible was, how inflammatory it was, how repugnant it was. And that's why they're asking you to put in the death penalty. And that's what every single one of you said. No, you all said, you want to know more? You want to know about a person, about a human being? You want to know about Scott Peterson? Him? We tried to show you that. We tried in the last week to put on people from all walks of life, all types of people who knew Scott, people from every angle from his young life to the current day. We tried to show you who we believe Scott Peterson is in an effort to let you make that decision. I can tell you that when Mr. Harris stood up and said he's manipulative all these years, 40 people he's manipulating when he was in high school, junior high, but Britain, sheep, he was manipulating Britain. He was manipulative. He was getting all these people, all of them had him wrong. All of them had him wrong. Huh? An amazing thing. 39 people. And that's just the people who came to testify. 39 people sat here on stand and told you what they knew about Scott Peterson. Intelligent people, well rounded people, salt of the earth people. And they told what he was like. Scott Peterson, he tells you they were manipulated. So let me ask you a question. He was manipulating. How did he manipulate Paul and Connie Fritz, elderly couple, Aaron Fritz's parents, do you remember them? How did he manipulate them? By coming down when he stopped down on his trips just to come by and see how they are. I asked her directly, I said, did he get anything out of this? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Nothing. Aaron himself, Aaron testified this is a guy who befriended him when it wouldn't be popular thing to do. He gave him a ride home when it was out of his way and he got nothing out of it, Nothing. He sat there and he told you that he would volunteer and wouldn't he tell anybody? Aaron would have to find out from other people or other ways. You heard this over and over and over. Bob Thompson, the professor from San Luis Obispo, telling you this is a guy who would invite me over after I was a professor. Get anything out of it? I asked him the same question. Scott, get anything out of it? No. Did he? Yeah, the professor did. He made him feel special. He made him feel special. Shelly Ryman testified yesterday. She was in the kitchen cooking and she looks over. Scott and her little girl were playing and reading and he was down on his knees talking to her. What was he getting from the two year old girl? Who was he manipulating? Mike Archer talked about, I think probably my favorite phase of the entire trial is the phrase that he used about that you couldn't say that Scott did some huge thing. It was just a daily thing. A thousand little things that he was always doing for people, always. Julie Galloway talked about that. He's always thought about himself first before others, and she's another case. They didn't have a dating relationship. He wasn't looking for anything for her other than a friendship. And she talked about the things he would do, the kindness he showed her. When she would mention something like a candle or something, it'd be there the next day and he'd get nothing back from it. Jim Gray, another one of the people I think was very interesting, sold him the business. After he sold him the business, came by to help, ended up paying bills, ended up actually working in the shop and helping him. He ended up doing things for him again, didn't even get paid nothing. He was not a manipulative person. I could go on and on and on. I'm not going to go through the list of witnesses. You saw them. It's hard. I know it's hard, and I understand it's hard to accept your minds and the minds of the prosecution. This man who has been convicted of murder, and it's hard to reconcile it. I understand that. It's been very difficult. This whole penalty phase is very difficult because we're standing here, you just convicted him of a devil murder, and then we turn around in two weeks and present 40 people and tell you what a great person he is. It's a strange system, and I understand that that's sort of hard to deal with. It's certainly been hard for us to reconcile in a lot of ways and to try and walk a kind of. Kind of a thin line here. I do want to address a couple things, and I'm not going to go into huge detail about some of the things Mr. Harris said in his argument, but a couple of things I thought specifically needed to be addressed, we put on people for Scott Peterson's life. And I told you from the beginning we were going to give you an honest picture of him. From what we. We saw the positives, the good things about him, and we were going to give you an honest picture. Okay? Scott didn't grow up in horrible surroundings. He didn't grow up in a bad situation. He grew up in a great family. He grew up in a family that was financially doing well. We don't hide that fact. I know it's easy to criticize and say, oh, my gosh, you know, playing golf, he's playing golf. Hey, above it all, look at that. It's a great way to make you hate somebody. Use that kind of class warfare. Look at that. He's an elite. He's a golfer. He comes from privilege. Because when you all, I mean all new. All of us growing up knew that the kid that had the money and shoved it basically in everybody's face, was snobby, was difficult to deal with, had trouble with teachers. We all knew the person. But the problem we got with that when we're trying to throw it up to you is that it doesn't match him. And you heard it. Every single person that came through here talked about him. And you've heard it. Every single person that came through here talked about. Far from being arrogant about it, far from being throw it in somebody's face, he was the exact opposite, exactly opposite to that. He made a comment that the testimony wasn't he enjoyed spending his parents money. That is absolutely false. What you heard was a young man at 19 years old. And I want you to think about how many 19 year olds who would do this, who could have gone to college, who could have spent the entire time they were in college having a great time on mom and dad's payroll, out every night partying and just having a great time enjoying. You know the phrase he used was enjoying his spirit, spending his parents money. This kid at 19 walked into his parents and says, you've done so much for me, I don't want it anymore. I'll do it. I'll go out. Oh, man, I don't want to be a burden anymore. Does that sound like somebody who's enjoying spending his parents money or does that sound like somebody who has a lot of good in them? Has a lot of good in them? Now, he told you about giving back the check. That was another move designed to pull something off. He'd get to the golf tournament, he won the golf tournament. He turned over the check in active, what seems to be charity. But hey, he was just trying to manipulate the farmers there. The farmers golf tournament, he was just trying to manipulate it. One problem with that, he didn't sell to the farmers. Those weren't his customers. Those weren't the people he dealt with. Okay? He had to go two levels up. Those weren't the people at the golf tournament. He did it as an act of charity because there is good in him. I'm not going to go through every witness. As I said, you can make that decision. You see for yourself. You got, you got to see them. We had talked to them usually a night or two before, and we got to know him a little bit. The stories and things that they wanted to tell about Scott. But it's hard. It's hard when you sit there and you listen to them talk about this young man. And every single person says a lot of the same things over and over and over. From the very young age you heard it constantly. Hard working, respectful, generous. Summer's just around the corner and the folks at Mint Mobile have a hot take. 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Did he manage to fool all these people all those years as an 8 year old, as a 12 year old, as a 14 year old he was fooling all these people? Or are these character traits that he does in fact have? I believe I know you were Told if he's in a jail cell, he'll get to see pictures, he'll get to do things that if he was dead, he wouldn't. Well, there's something, there's something else I think that needs to be talked about. And I brought it up with several of the witnesses. Jill, from what you see in the movies, what you see on television when you read about it, it's not a picnic by any stretch, but there are people in jail who are there, who need help, who can use help. Jail is one of the things that's not talked about a lot. There are a lot of 18, 20 year olds who get in trouble using drug deals, using some kind of burglary, robbery, something like that. One of the things that's not talked a lot about is generally people tend to go back and forth out of prison three or four different charges, different times in their lives. But by the time they reach 29, 30, 32, 33. The thing I think is very interesting is you find most of them, the light goes on, they sort of catch on. Look, you know, maybe this isn't the life I want going in and out of prison. Some of them, maybe they had a kid and they start missing. Maybe some of them had a wife they missed, maybe some of them had a job they like. For some reason the light goes on and they start realizing this isn't what they want to do. There are people in jail who can use help and who don't have counselors. I believe that what you have heard from these people, and I asked several of them, is that Scott Peterson has the ability to affect their lives the way he affected those people's. He has, it's not, and I'm not asking to say, put him in a jail cell and let's see what happens. Let's hope his personality changes around. Maybe he'll find religion and maybe he'll end up helping people that way. I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to look what people testify to, people who sat there who know him, that this is a person who's continually done this kind of thing. He's continually helped people. This is an opportunity and it's a chance to make something out of a life that is essentially not going anywhere. It's a chance to see that others benefit from the positive part of Scott Peterson. It's a chance for him to do some good for the rest of his life. And you've seen, you've seen, heard that he's the type of person that's Willing to do that. Now, I know that it's difficult for me to talk to you about a positive coming out of this, if there's any way positive, because it's so tragic and so horrible that it seems impossible. I also know that we're. We're living a time period where things have changed, where we don't necessarily surround ourselves. The body doesn't surround itself by trying to look at the positive in people. Hate has become hate cells. We've seen it. You see it in political campaigns. Negative advertising is what works. You've seen it in the media. If you get out and say horrible, nasty things about somebody or get on television because that's what the ratings get you seen in sports, trash talking into different things. It's what sells. And I understand that we're living in a little bit of a different time. It's a little harder these days to try and dig down and look for the good that can come out of something. But I'm asking you to do that. I'm asking you to think about the possibilities here, that there is a possible good that can still come from it. And I believe this man will do that. Now, the judge is going to give you an instruction. Mr. Harris referred to it briefly, about lingering doubt. And I do want to address that. He said that witnesses got up here and basically threw it in your face and said, we think he's innocent. Make you feel guilty, make you feel bad about your verdict. You know better than that. They didn't get up here to make you feel guilty. That's his friends, that's his family. They believe him. There's nothing wrong with that. That's not trying to make anybody feel bad or feel guilty. They believe him. They believe in him. But there is going to be an instruction about lingering doubt. Lingering doubt is simply this. When we went through the penalty, I mean, excuse me, the guilt phase. You dealt with the whole issue of guilt or innocence. And the standard that goes beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a high standard. You had to believe beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty. And that indeed is what you found him guilty of. Beyond a reasonable doubt. For the death phase, for what you're about to go through now, the bar goes higher. And now we might have a lingering doubt as to his guilt. A lingering doubt. I don't need to define that. You know what a lingering doubt is. I believe that it's safe to say that in a circumstantial case, and we've all conceded it is a circumstantial case, There is no. This isn't a case, as you see in some death penalty cases, where there's a photograph of somebody videotaping somebody being shot that you know, or There's DNA in one of 240 million, so you know the person is there and present. Those are the things you can know, you know, beyond any lingering doubt that person did it. But in a circumstantial case, lingering doubt becomes a huge issue because you can't know. That's what circumstantial cases are. We don't know. Prosecution has conceded. We don't know the when, we don't know the where, we don't know the how, and we don't know the why. That is lingering doubt. And that's the standard that you'll now be held to when you do your deliberations. I am going to speak to you for just a couple minutes more. And then at some point, I don't know how we're going to schedule it, but I believe at some point we're going to take an early lunch and come back earlier than usual. And then Mark is going to address you and talk to you about other issues that are involved in this case. So I'm just going to end. But essentially, I wish in conclusion I had something to conclude. I wish I had something. I wish there was a phrase that I can give you that would turn this around and make you believe that there is good and there's real and real good in this person. He is not a monster. I don't have that phrase. I don't have the ability to do it. That's up to you to decide. That will be your decision. You've had a lot to look at. You've obviously spent four to five months and you've seen Scott Peterson. That was not pretty. You've heard phone tapes. They repeat them again. Most of what Mr. Harris has done is ask you essentially to relive the guilt phase again. Let's go back and do it again because it's so horrific. Let's show you again. That's not what this is about. It's not about reliving it. It's about taking a look at a man's life. And I told you, I told you at the opening, it's a life worth saving. You heard almost 40 people stand up and tell you that in fact, it is. They believe it's a life worth saving. They believe that there is good, a lot of good. So I'm going to ask you. I don't think I'm going to ask you. I think I'm going to beg you. I'm going to beg you when you go back there, please spare his life. Thank you. All right, y' all. To me that is again scorched. I mean, obviously 39 witnesses and called him everything but Jesus. And now I don't know how the prosecution didn't ejected that. There might be scores from prosecution size. You can't go in the death penalty phase in question the main trial. Now you're back to they don't even know who did it. Basically, that's what they're saying. Circumstantial. They can't prove to you did it. And now there's lingering doubt. Wow, this case is so fucked. But guess what? All we have left is Mark Garrigo's closing arguments and the final comments from the judge, etc. And we are definitely concluding that. Finally, on the next episode. Love and appreciate each and every one of y' all. Thank you for liking and listening and sharing. Look, the old stories are coming back, y' all. Hashtag justice for Haley. Oh, God. We'll see where we're at because I'm recording this less than 24 hours before the meeting with the district attorney and the old district attorney and the investigators and all that. So we I'm going to do a special drop on that as soon as we get it. And just thank y' all for everything. In Ms. Barbara Blunt's case. Can never call in too many tips. We would love, love, love to bring her body home. In Lopa, Louisiana, Oregon procurement agency. You know, it's my jam, y' all. Check them out. They're on Facebook like they do post every day. Nonprofit, you know, we support them. They save lives. Go sign up to be an organ donor. You don't have to be a lifer from Louisiana. You can be a lifer from Canada, which there are a lot of. Y' all. You go lifers in Canada. Go to lopa.org, fill out the questionnaire, become a hero, give the gift of life and all that great stuff they do. And I'm Woody Overton, your host of Real Life, Real Crime, the podcast. Until next time or ever. Don't let me catch you down on Murder by Peace. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You gotta write to an attorney prior to it during any question. If you can't afford one, the court appoint one for you. Do you understand your rights?