Ep. #692: Douglas Murray, Sen. Tina Smith, Matt Welch

Summary

Podcast Summary: Real Time with Bill Maher – Episode #692: Douglas Murray, Sen. Tina Smith, Matt Welch

Release Date: April 19, 2025

In Episode #692 of HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher," host Bill Maher engages in a spirited discussion with guests Douglas Murray, Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota, and Matt Welch. The conversation traverses a myriad of pressing political and social issues, offering diverse perspectives on democracy, cultural conflicts, political violence, immigration, economic policies, and generational shifts in the workforce.

1. Political Climate and Trump's Policies

The episode opens with Bill Maher touching upon the tumultuous political landscape, particularly focusing on former President Donald Trump's contentious policies. The discussion highlights Trump's approach to handling tax cheats, where Maher remarks, "A lot of the things Trump does are really pandering to the base, but letting tax cheats not have to worry about getting audited." (00:45). This sentiment underscores concerns about the administration's impact on fiscal responsibility and legal accountability.

Trump's Foreign Policy Actions: Maher delves into Trump's unconventional foreign policy maneuvers, including humorous takes on pardoning historical figures like Pontius Pilate. He quips, "Trump has a new foreign friend in Nayib Bukele. He is the dictator, he says.” (10:00), highlighting the perplexing alliances formed under Trump's leadership. The conversation also touches on J.D. Vance's unexpected conversion to Catholicism and his attempts to influence religious perspectives on foreign policy (00:17).

2. Tina Smith on Democracies vs. Death Cults

Senator Tina Smith shares insights from Douglas Murray's book, "On Democracies and Death Cults, Israel and the Future of Civilization." Murray emphasizes the dichotomy between liberal democracies and extremist groups he terms "death cults." Smith elaborates, "The jihadists say... infidels love life. And that's their weakness. They worship death." (09:17). This framework seeks to explain the motivations behind groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, positioning them as existential threats to democratic values.

Cultural Differences and Western Values: Murray argues that multiculturalism often masks fundamental cultural differences. He states, "Cultures are different... Western values are different than other values that other cultures have and in ways we like to think, better." (08:28). Smith concurs, emphasizing the uniqueness of liberal democracies and the challenges they face from ideologies that glorify death over life (09:17).

3. Political Polarization and Violence in America

The conversation shifts to the alarming rise of political violence in the United States. Maher lists various incidents, including assassination attempts and extremist actions: "January 6 riot, assassination attempts on figures like Brett Kavanaugh... political violence is rampant." (31:14). The guests express concern over the lack of serious discourse on these issues, with Maher lamenting, "We haven't had an adult conversation about political violence in this country at all over the last five years." (32:46).

Impact of Polarization: Murray and Welch discuss the deepening divide, noting that extremist rhetoric from both the left and the right contributes to an environment where violence becomes more likely. This polarization hampers bipartisan efforts to address systemic issues effectively.

4. Immigration, Deportations, and Due Process

A significant portion of the discussion centers on immigration policies and the erosion of due process. Maher criticizes the Trump administration's attempts to bypass legal procedures by deporting individuals without hearings, stating, "People who are here legally, sometimes US Citizens, sometimes not... you're just being shipped off without due process." (22:00). Welch adds, "Our constitution is quite clear that if you are a resident of this country, you deserve due process." (22:03).

Case Study – Kilmar Abreu Garcia: The panel references the case of Kilmar Abreu Garcia, an American deported to El Salvador under dubious circumstances. Maher emphasizes the constitutional violations inherent in such actions, quoting a Fourth Circuit appeals court ruling: "We are right now stashing away our residents in foreign prisons in a deliberate attempt to get away from due process." (24:18). This case exemplifies the broader issues with immigration enforcement under the current administration.

5. Economic Policies, Tariffs, and Dependence on China

Economic discussions highlight the detrimental effects of Trump's tariff policies. Maher criticizes the inconsistency and short-sightedness of these measures, noting, "It's like 10% tariffs across the board to the world, let alone China. So that raises the prices on everybody." (40:20). Murray expands on the dependency on China, particularly regarding rare earth metals, which are crucial for manufacturing and military applications. He points out, "China has 90% of them. We're almost completely reliant on them." (41:48).

Challenges in Domestic Production: The panel discusses the impracticality of rapidly developing domestic rare earth mining operations. Maher highlights the extensive time required to establish such infrastructures, contrasting it with China's swift industrial capabilities: "Why should they help us now?... It would take 29 years to get the next mine online." (44:22). This dependency underscores vulnerabilities in the U.S. economy and national security.

6. Generational Shifts: Gen Z and the Workforce

The conversation transitions to the evolving dynamics of the American workforce, particularly focusing on Generation Z. Maher humorously critiques Gen Z's work ethic and preferences, stating, "They're doughy gamers who need an emotional support animal to ride in a plane." (49:24). The guests discuss the implications of a workforce that increasingly favors non-traditional careers over manufacturing and manual labor.

Workforce Challenges: Murray argues that the lack of interest among Gen Z in traditional manufacturing jobs poses a significant challenge for maintaining and revitalizing the American industrial base. He laments, "They just don't... They're not saying can do. They say can't even." (47:02). Welch adds that the Democratic Party must adapt to these generational shifts to effectively address economic and social needs.

7. Path Forward: Bridging Divides and Policy Reforms

The panel emphasizes the necessity for the Democratic Party to engage more effectively with opposing viewpoints and to implement pragmatic policy reforms. Welch advocates for addressing systemic issues like housing shortages by reforming zoning laws: "If we fix zoning laws so that it's easier to build housing, you can fix the housing supply problem." (45:04). Murray underscores the importance of moving beyond polarized rhetoric to foster constructive dialogue and meaningful change.

Rebuilding National Unity: Maher and his guests conclude by stressing the urgency of addressing political polarization and the rise of extremist ideologies. Maher optimistically suggests that public sentiment against the current administration’s overreach could shift in upcoming midterm elections: "He's on the wrong side of that. He's going to feel it and they're gonna get wiped out in the midterm." (28:45).

8. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Maher’s humorous "New Rules" segment, satirizing contemporary social and political issues. This segment serves as both comic relief and a satirical critique of the ongoing cultural and political battles shaping the nation.

Closing Remarks: Bill Maher encourages listeners to watch the show’s "Overtime" segment on YouTube and promotes upcoming episodes, emphasizing the show's commitment to tackling urgent societal issues with a blend of humor and incisive commentary.

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This episode of "Real Time with Bill Maher" offers a comprehensive analysis of the current American socio-political landscape, highlighting the challenges of democracy in the face of extremist ideologies, the pitfalls of inconsistent economic policies, and the shifting dynamics of generational work ethics. Through robust debate and insightful commentary, Maher and his guests provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities shaping today's America.

Transcript

[Bill Maher]

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Tina Smith]

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Tina Smith]

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[Douglas Murray]

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Ma. Thank you. Hey, people, how are you? Thank you. Thank you, everybody. I appreciate that very much. All right, here we are. We're still here. Yes. Thank you very much. I know. I know why you're happy. I know. At least I know. Okay. Yeah, I know it's tough out there. Okay. I appreciate it. Thank you very much. All right. I know why you're happy. It's Good Friday and this is the day Jesus died for all of our sins. So you know what? Have fun. It's all paid for. You're playing with the house money. Oh, just the same way it is. It's tax day or was on Wednesday. And, you know, one of the things that Doge has done is kind of gutted the irs, so, you know, you're not. If you don't have it, don't worry about it. Yeah. I mean, I'll say this. A lot of the things Trump does are really pandering to the base, but letting tax cheats not have to worry about getting audited. That one came from the heart. It really did. Oh, I. I don't want to say the economy's going into shitter, but did you. Did you see this? People are dying. Dying. Yeah, they're dying, too. But dying potatoes because. For Easter, because eggs are too expensive. This. This sounds some like. Sounds like something my Irish relatives did after they shit in a hole and slept in the mud. So yes, we're dying. Potatoes. People are dying overseas because we cut overseas aid, they say. The New York Fed says we're going into a recession. We have a constitutional crisis Today. Melania had a jacket that said, I'm starting to care, but, hey, it's Easter. It's Easter. Easter on Sunday. Are you excited about that? Oh, my gosh. My favorite holiday on the Christian calendar, the day when we celebrate Jesus being resurrected from the dead. Or as Elon Musk sees it, an elaborate scheme to defraud Social Security. And it's a. Oh, it's Easter. Very big day at the White House. Trump is. Trump is honoring the day by locking up guys named Jesus. And he pardoned Pontius Pilate. I'm sorry? He pardoned Pontius Pilate is what I meant to get out of my mouth. But, oh, and not just Trump. J.D. vance, our vice president. He's in Rome. You know, he's a convert, a recent convert to Catholicism. I know. He's married to a Hindu, goes right to the Catholics. I don't know what that says, but. But he. Yeah, he converted to catharson because he heard priests like little pricks, so. But no, JD's over there. He wants to get in to see the Pope. It's not sure he's going to, but he'd like to get in there to convince him that Jesus was dead wrong about being nice to foreigners. Well, Trump has a new foreign friend is Nayib Bukele. He is the dictator, he says. Called himself the world's coolest dictator. Have you seen this guy of El Salvador? It's like if they gave Andrew Tate a country. And he was at the White House this week, and he and Trump are getting in the gulag business together. Really? We keep sending people down there, talk about even doing it with American citizens to the El Salvador prisons. And Trump said, we gotta. You gotta build five more down there. And some of his supporters were angry. They said we should be building notorious prisons right here in America. What about good jobs for our sadistic guards when there is a car battery clamped onto a man's nipples, that should be an American battery. But, hey, say what you will about the barbarism, I tell you, the migrants, the encounters of migrants at the southern border, way down. I don't have the statistics. I just know the lawns in my neighborhood are a disaster. And. And, oh, finally, little Haley Joel Osment is in the news. Remember Haley? Remember the movie the Sixth Sense? He was the kid in that. Well, apparently he's all grown up and has Some anger issues. They arrested him being intoxicated, and he. He yelled at the arrest, arresting officers, you're a fucking Nazi and you're a fucking kike. I see dead careers. And over on Fox News, they came down on him like a ton of bricks for this. Said, you do not call people Nazis. We got a great show. We have Matt Welch and Minnesota Senator Tina Smith. But first up, he is a New York Times bestselling author whose newest is called On Democracies and Death Cults, Israel and the Future of Civilization. Douglas Murray. How are you, sir? Welcome back. How are you? Okay. Isn't it great that we can still laugh in these troubled times?

[Tina Smith]

It is.

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, good. Okay, let's get. So your book, I want to get right to it because I think it's a very important book. An important subject, which you've been talking about for a long time, and I want to do that now, is kind of connect your book to the wider issue that you have been talking about for a very long time. Israel, the way I see it, and I think you do, too, is on the front lines of a much wider war. And when you talk about that war, people on the left call you an Islamophobe because they see multiculturalism. They say we should just we're all part of the same, and we all part of the same humanity. But cultures are different. And I think that is the theme that you've worked on for a very long time, that Western values are different than other values that other cultures have and in the ways we like to think, better.

[Tina Smith]

Yeah. I mean, most people in the west, in free countries like America, seem to think that what we have is the natural order of things. We behave like fish in water. We just don't realize this is what we're swimming in. But it's actually very unusual what we have. And one of the lines I try to draw in this book is the democracies, the liberal democracies that we enjoy. Some groups, some people, they don't want that. They want something totally different. We have principles in our societies, like prioritizing the importance of life. We love life. The jihadists say Hassan Nasrallah of Hezbollah, the leaders of Hamas, they say repeatedly, they said repeatedly, the infidel love life. And that's their weakness. And they say that because they, by contrast, what I call the death cults, they worship death. They glorify death. They're hungry for death, they're hot for death. They glorify in it. And they believe that by terrorizing us, by terrorizing Israel, with this boast, we love death more than you love life, that they will intimidate us, they'll defeat us. And I say we have to take this on. We have to believe them that when they behave as they did in Israel on October 7, when they behave as they did at the Batacla in Paris or the Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, we should believe that they mean what they say. They really do want death. And then, of course, there are two things. One, of course we can do what we can to help them. And the second thing is we can say, you know, we will not apologize for loving life.

[Douglas Murray]

It's odd that this is controversial, isn't it, in America, isn't it?

[Tina Smith]

But look at the number of people who, for instance, when the Nova party was attacked on the morning of October 7th, and hundreds and hundreds of young people just dancing in the early morning, you would have thought that the sympathies of the world would be with young people who were attacked, raped, beheaded, kidnapped, shot in the head, and much more. And yet, weirdly, instead of all of the fellow students of those people who could have been at a similar dance party if they'd have been, if it had been in their country, instead of having sympathy with the victims, they actually blame the victims. They double down on it. In New York, there was a memorial, an exhibition to the Nova Party, and hundreds of people in New York came out to attack the survivors of the Nova Party. There was one man who lost both his daughters at the party, and he has to walk through the crowd in New York celebrating the murder of his daughters. Why? If you agree with the obvious statement that October 7th was the biggest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust, some people have had the ability to say that. Why have so few people had the ability to say, okay, then who are the Nazis and why are there so many of their supporters in our midst? Whatever radical movements have existed in the past, there was a no go on supporting genocidal anti Semitic groups who wanted to wipe out the Jews and then everyone else. We used to have that standard. Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

And also dance parties. Yeah. Most, I gotta say, you know, like, this is what bothers me about the people who call us Islamophobes. You like dance parties? You people, Half of them are at Coachella right now.

[Tina Smith]

Right.

[Douglas Murray]

You know, I mean, it just doesn't exist in the part of the world that you're cheering for.

[Tina Smith]

Right.

[Douglas Murray]

You couldn't do it. The idiots with the Queers for Palestine T shirts on those people. I saw that, you know, Bernie Sanders and AOC Going around the country now and getting huge crowds. And I read that they were in Boise, Idaho, not exactly a blue state. And the crowd, but their crowd, of course, is a very liberal crowd. And a chant of Free Palestine went up and pretty much stopped the show. So I kind of worry that that's where the Democratic Party is, that this is their next stupid hill to die on. Yeah, free. So the chant of Free Palestine. Free from who, I would like to ask, did they realize who was really the people who are enslaving the people of Palestine?

[Tina Smith]

If those moronic people had any knowledge, they would say free Palestine from Hamas at the very least. They do that.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah.

[Tina Smith]

But as I show in my book, and I did, as you know, I was on the ground reporting the atrocities of October 7th. I was embedded with the IDF in Gaza as well as Lebanon. But the real question I have comes back to this thing here at home, which is, why are there people, first of all, who openly support the death cult of Hamas, who love it, glorify in it? Then, of course, you've got the ones who basically like the kkk, they want to cover their heads and their identities whilst calling for genocidal violence. You know, the people who wear a kefir and also a Covid mask because they simultaneously want a lot of Intifada and are fearful of the COVID 19 virus. It's very. The Delta variant particularly terrifies them. But these. Some of these people are serious about it, and some of them have been just deluded. They couldn't find Israel on a map if you left them alone with a head torch and a map for a week. But there are others who are in the realms of magical thinking. They genuinely seem to believe that if the Palestinians were given another state, and in my view, they were given one in 2005, but if they were given another state, they seem to believe that everything else in the region would be solved. Yemen's economy would blossom, the mullahs in Iran would give women equal rights, and everyone would be going to gay bars in Riyadh. None of that's true. None of it's true. But the bigger one is, why do they think it would improve anything here at home as well? Why, if the Palestinians get another state, does it not only solve every injustice in the Middle east, of which there are plenty, but every injustice here in America? Just as our ancestors, some of them, believed that you could turn base metal into gold, These people have been persuaded that if you give yet more governance to Palestinians in the Middle East, I mean, there's A good argument for Palestinian rights as long as they don't vote in Hamas. But the idea that you just have another Palestinian state and then all injustice in the world is solved. This is magical thinking and unfortunately for these people, it has no connection with reality.

[Douglas Murray]

So what are people like us do who recognize this as a big problem on the left, but also recognize the horrible stuff that's going on on the right? I mean, you were on Joe Rogan a couple of days ago, a week ago, something like that. Got a lot of press and I'm glad you said what you said, which is, I mean he, I mean I like Joe, but he has on people who entertain these crazy conspiracy theories and doesn't really push back on them. It's okay to have. I mean I'm a free speech absolutist pretty much. But there seems to be no pushback on this. And of course, what's going on in this country, what we're going to probably be talking about here on the panel in a minute, this kind of encroaching fascism. I mean, I was using the term slow moving coup before he got elected the first time.

[Tina Smith]

Well, the right clearly, I mean, it's always interesting to see what happens at the point of victory. What do you do with your victory? And if those people on the American right who are now in the ascendant, if they decide that they want to use their point of victory to for instance, lie about the origins of the Russia Ukraine war, or lie about the nature of Hamas, or lie about the state of Israel or lie about history. I mean the reason I did this pushback was, I mean, you just have to. I mean you just have to. In my view it's basic social hygiene. If you've got somebody who's coming along who pretends to be a historian, who then can always do the thing of saying, oh, I actually don't call myself a historian. It's just other people I allowed call me a historian. I'm not a car mechanic. But if I kept on being introduced as a car mechanic, I would say, oh, you got the wrong guy. So they don't mind it. They don't mind it. They have this slip out, these people that I was trying to call out on Joe's show. They are doing things like Hitler wasn't that much of an anti Semite. Main problem in the 20th century was Winston Churchill. Winston Churchill was the warmonger. Adolf Hitler wanted peace. And I just, look, it's a matter of social hygiene. Don't feed me this shit. And.

[Douglas Murray]

This is All.

[Tina Smith]

And, you know, there's obviously this crossover between the people who are just trolls. They say this because they think it's really fun to do the Jewish question, to do, like, a bit of Holocaust denial, a bit of Hitler praise, a bit of Churchill degradation. They think it's kind of funny what they're watering. And what's going to come up underneath them are going to be people who believe this rod. And a lot of people you can clearly see on the right at the moment are very happy if you can denigrate the tradition of Winston Churchill and pretend that Adolf Hitler wasn't so bad, because then you can do things like Christian nationalism. You can do really, really tough nationalist stuff.

[Douglas Murray]

They basically can buy Kanye albums.

[Tina Smith]

That's the last stage. That's like the ultimate. After they've absolved Adolf Hitler, they want to absolve Kanye, and then they're gonna get to the point of hanging.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, it's a great book. Everybody should read it. Thank you. Always great to see you. I'm always with you, pal. You know that. All right, Douglas Murray. All right, let's meet our. Hi there. Hi, everybody. All right. He co hosts the Fifth Column podcast and is editor at large at Reason magazine. Matt Welch is back with us, one of our longtime favorites and a newcomer. She's a Democratic senator. Wow. We got a senator on the show from Minnesota, Tina Smith. Welcome aboard. So again this week, we start talking about this man, Kilmar Abreu Garcia. It seems like every week, but, you know, people are interested and they should be for both humanitarian reasons and because it is sort of the crux of what our nation is going to become. His case. Thank you. One guy. So first, let me give you a bit of an update. He is apparently out of the bad prison, the worst prison in the world. They took him to it, and he met. Did finally did meet with the congressman, congressmen from Maryland who went down there and talked to him. Oh, there they are. So I want to just skip over to the. Not to bury the lead. What I find the most disturbing about this, and we can talk about him in a minute. But, you know, Trump is talking about putting not just people like him who was illegal. And, you know, I think it's okay to deport people, but not. It's different than disappearing them and putting them in gulags. Trump was asked at a press conference, you mentioned that you're open to deporting individuals that aren't foreign aliens or criminals to El Salvador. And he said, love it. Why you think they're A special category of person. I'd like to say. I do think they're special. They're called Americans. I'm one of them. You got me. I think I'm special.

[Matt Welch]

Guilty as charged.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, guilty. I don't think I should be deported just for. Because, you know, there has to be a standard beyond very bad people. The president thinking you're very bad.

[Bill Maher]

This is also a problem with the due process aspect of it, which the Trump administration is trying to skate around. Like, if we just use the Alien enemies Act from 1798 and send people away, then we don't have to even bother with the due process and having a. How do you know that Bill Maher is not an illegal immigrant? You have to have a hearing, actually. And this is already. I mean, maybe you have to have a hearing, but this is already starting to happen. People who are here legally, sometimes US Citizens, sometimes not. But there was a case of somebody in Florida who was here on illegal refugee status, was sent to El Salvador because of, like, tattoos. You have to have a hearing to decide whether or not you qualify to begin with.

[Douglas Murray]

And this guy is from El Salvador, right?

[Matt Welch]

Yes. But, you know, our constitution is quite clear that if you are a resident of this country, you deserve due process. And the other thing, even if you're here illegally, you deserve to have a hearing. You can't just be shipped off without. And so now there's all this, you know, innuendo and all these things about what maybe he did, what he didn't do. That's why we have courts. That's why we have a legal process in order to get that sorted out. And of course, the other thing that Trump said was he talked about homegrown criminals and what he wanted to do with homegrown criminals.

[Douglas Murray]

To me, that's the clearest of all. I mean, of all the things that go on in the first term and now in this one that are outside the bounds. You know, we heard about norms. Oh, yes. He doesn't guard rails and then just sort of just ignoring summonses and subpoenas. Now we're at the place of just ignoring court orders. I mean, the Supreme Court ruled on this guy. And again, he's not an angel, apparently. Apparently there's a little wife beating in the past. Not cool.

[Matt Welch]

But that's why we have courts to figure that out.

[Douglas Murray]

Right, but it doesn't really figure into this. Even if he did, doesn't mean you go to the Gulag. But the term that the Supreme Court used was facilitate. They told him nine to nothing. You have to facilitate this man's return. And Trump just said to John Roberts, basically, go get in the go fuck yourself line like everybody else.

[Bill Maher]

There was an incredible 4th Circuit appeals district appeals court ruling yesterday. J. Harvey Wilkinson, I recommend your entire audience, including your new friends at 1600 Pennsylvania, to read this in its entirety, because that was gratuitous. Well, to read it in its entirety, because he says, and this is a Reagan appointee. This is a good conservative judge in good standing. He says, rarely is the point so clear. We are right now stashing away our residents in foreign prisons in a deliberate attempt to get away from due process, which is basically. Basically our constitutional order. And this should shock the conscience of not just judges, but of everybody who has an intuition of American liberty.

[Matt Welch]

That's right.

[Bill Maher]

And this bill is where I actually have some optimism. Trump is wrong if he thinks that Americans are going to be in support of this. Americans are in support of deporting criminals, absolutely. Violent criminals. It's like 97 to 1.

[Douglas Murray]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

Deport the violent criminals, but they're not in favor at all of the President of the United States defying the Supreme Court. It's like an 80 to 20 issue. He's on the wrong side of that.

[Douglas Murray]

Okay, but so what? If I may address the little shot you just gave me. So fucking what? Okay, I don't understand this. We're at that part of the movie where there's a gunfight and the guy and then click, click, click. There's no more bullets in the gun. We have no power. So how do we handle this? And Gretchen Whitmer showed us one way. Can we show that picture? Because she was in the Oval Office, same place I was a few weeks before, and this is what she did. Okay. I think there's a couple of ways to handle the Oval Office, and this is not the way I chose. You don't want to talk. You have no power. I mean, I went. People seemed to, like, gloss over the fact that I went in there. I didn't surrender to him. I said this. Of course, people don't care. They don't watch what I actually did. They just react to clickbait. But I went in there and I said to his face, you're scaring people. Why do you want to scare your own citizens? I said to his face, he ran in three elections. You lost the middle one. I said to his face, birtherism was low. Okay. I'm glad that I was able to go and do that. Got a seat at the table, because, again, what else do you have. You have no power. So this idea that. I mean, and he's gonna be there for another four years, that's a long time to hold your breath. Well, and I think it's a long time to hold the thing up in front of your face, let me tell you.

[Matt Welch]

I think that is why Governor Whit went to the White House. She went there to take care of the business of the people of Michigan.

[Douglas Murray]

You have to.

[Matt Welch]

And that's what she did. And so then what happens is she gets basically ambushed by the President of the United States, who pulls her into a press conference that she's not expecting, where he is telling he's signing an executive order directing the Justice Department to investigate people who he thinks are no longer loyal to him.

[Douglas Murray]

I mean, some get in his face right then and there while the cameras are on.

[Matt Welch]

She was like, this is a shit show, and I want nothing to do with this. I think is what. What she was doing.

[Douglas Murray]

Well, we need a better Democrat than that.

[Matt Welch]

Well, she went there.

[Douglas Murray]

She went there.

[Matt Welch]

Yes, she went there. I wish, you know, what was she going to do?

[Douglas Murray]

What's she going to do? Not that. I mean, I understand why she did it because she didn't want to be seen with Trump, because that would make her look stupid.

[Matt Welch]

She wasn't hiding.

[Bill Maher]

I think it was good of you to go there. I would have gone there.

[Tina Smith]

I would have.

[Bill Maher]

I wouldn't be invited. But, like, I think Americans should go. When the president invites you into the White House and do exactly that, and then report back what you saw, regardless of whether that surprised you.

[Tina Smith]

Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

They're also mad at me because I didn't. I mean, all the people who were like, we're losing truth. Okay, I told you the truth. Yeah, he's different in person. Should I have lied about that? We want the truth. Yeah. But when you get it and you don't like it. Boo. Bad truth. Bad truth. Bill, to answer your question, life's complicated. I'm sorry I complicated your life.

[Bill Maher]

To answer your question, though, about the empty guns, which is a very good question, is that there are times in the past when the Supreme Court ruled against George Walsh, for example, said Brown versus Board of Education, we're going to stop segregation in schools. George Walsh says, I've got the guns, you don't. The Supreme Court, the judiciary does not have the power to enforce laws. They have powers to kind of inform us and tell us about it. But what happened to George Wallace eventually? The Brown vs Board of Education is rightly hailed as a landmark decision. And he is rightly seen as a retrograde bigot. You cannot go against the American public for too long. There is an intuition of liberty in this country on a whole lot of issues. And Donald Trump likes his popularity at least a little bit. He's sensitive to his popularity. And if he's on the wrong side of repeated 80, 20 issue, which he is right now, he's gonna feel it and they're gonna get wiped out in the midterm.

[Matt Welch]

That's right.

[Douglas Murray]

I hope. But in the meantime, you know, I think you gotta talk to the guy. I mean. Cause the alternative is what? I was reading Tom Friedman's editorial this week, and it's like many other editorials, and I mention him because I'm a big fan of his. And he wrote, if Donald Trump doesn't stop his rogue behavior, he's going to destroy all the things that made America strong, respected, and prosperous. Totally agree. And then he finished up. I have never been more afraid for America's future in my life. Totally agree again. You know who's not reading this? Trump or anyone in his cabinet or anyone on that half of the whole country. So you're just jerking each other off. Okay, writing these editorials for the people already agreed to read. I don't see what it's doing. I'm just not interested in this beat a dead horse contest that you're in. I think we have to have something different. And I don't need to be lectured on who Donald Trump is. I was out. I mean, I was the one who was saying he was never going to leave to begin with. This was a Nixon to China thing. For me to go there. It's because we were so vitriolic toward each other. And by the way, if you don't know what Nixon to China means, maybe you shouldn't be involving yourself in political arguments anymore. So I want to just say that.

[Matt Welch]

I think that one of the problems that we have as a Democratic Party is that we don't talk enough to people that disagree with us. And this is on my mind because I was home in Minnesota this past week, and I was in the reddest, reddest parts of the state. You know, having meetings with people, I'm sure 70, 80% of them voted for Trump. And, like, that's the reason that we lose, I think, is because we don't go and talk to people who don't like us. And then when they don't like us, we kind of try to say, well, let me just tell you why I'm really A good person.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah. I mean, when it gets to this is the whole reason I went to this thing, the whole when it gets to that point of I just hate you, then it doesn't matter what the policy is. It's just, how can I fuck you up? That's how our country is run. How can I fuck you up, Cuz I just hate you. So much of Republican politics is trolling. It's just doing shit just because I Trump last week bringing back coal.

[Matt Welch]

It's really smart. Like that'll make everyone's utility costs go up. So super good idea if you're trying to lower costs for people.

[Douglas Murray]

Also sort of apropos to this is that someone tried to burn down the governor of Pennsylvania's house last week with him and his family inside. So again, I would say to the people who don't want to talk, this is sort of the other way that this is going to end up. And we just made a short list of some of the political violence that we've seen in the last few years. The January 6 riot, some people would say too lenient about how we treated the 2020 riots, or just the 2020 riots themselves, themselves. Political violence, a lot of excusing it and saying it's okay. Obviously, the Trump assassination attempts, people who think Luigi Mangione is a hero. The guy who shot the health executive in the back of the head. Nancy Pelosi attacked at home, assassination attempt against Brett Kavanaugh, the pipe bombs that were mailed to the Democrats. Remember that in 2019, all the top Democrats by that guy, Cesar Soyak, Steve Calise Scalise, Republican congressman, shot at a softball game. This is a lot of political violence in this country and I don't know what the answer to that is, but I don't see it getting better. If we're just in the I don't talk to you, I'm at my own lunch table mode.

[Bill Maher]

And when we're doing the ends justify the means in our own apologia for it, I would throw into this your category also. Portland, Oregon, for 100 consecutive days or whatever it was in 2020 when they were just ransacking the federal building there. People apologized for it, they looked the other way. They said it was mostly peaceful. We haven't had an adult conversation about political violence in this country at all over the last five years. And it's gotten worse and worse and worse. We don't even really talk about Donald Trump getting shot in the ear. That happened all of last year. That's crazy. I'm really worried about this going forward because there hasn't been a rational. The post October 7th protests on campus, a lot of those turned pretty violent and bad. A lot of, like Jews were sort of hiding out in libraries in nyu. That's bad. And there isn't any proper, like, excuse and apology for it. So we have to get serious about that because in that polarized moment when we're not being serious, when we're lionizing Luigi Magione, the next one's going to happen and it's going to be worse.

[Matt Welch]

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Matt Welch]

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[Douglas Murray]

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[Douglas Murray]

Okay, well, it is Easter Sunday this Sunday. And there's something new now that I just found out today. They do the Easter Egg Roll on Monday. I don't know why holiday's over, but I guess that's what they do. And the kids are off from work four months. Another thing, we're bringing back child labor if we can only get the lead back into pipes. Okay, so. But this year, something new. Corporate sponsorship for the egg roll. Of course, Trump has to. Trump has to monetize everything. So we got ahold of Some of the eggs that are sponsored by different corporations. Would you like to see what's going to be on it? Okay. Operating, for example, Tesla has one. Please don't throw this at a cyber truck. Bank of America has asked us for a loan to buy me. Oh, the Alice. He is risen. Oh, McDonald's has unavailable after 11am oh, Gwyneth Paltrow's goop sponsored one. Don't ask where this egg has been. Yeah, Planned Parenthood. When you're done with this egg, we'll get rid of it for you. Oh, the woods. My pot store in West Hollywood. Honestly, I'd rather be fried. Yes. And Walmart. Because isn't an eggshell just more white trash? Oh, terrible. These are terrible things. So can we talk about the economy a little bit? I did an editorial here about, I don't know, five years ago during Trump's first term, and I was rooting for a recession, and boy, did that make their heads explode on the right. They really fucking hated me for that. I was like, really? History's greatest monster. This man is rooting for a recession. And I was saying, it's the only way Trump's going to be unpopular. And they were like, yeah. And of course, I'm just. I can't make it actually happen. They didn't seem to understand that I'm not a genie. I can't make. But I'm rooting for one again, because the only way this is going to turn around. And we see it already. I mean, you know, you see conservative papers now, conservative outlets who are not supporting Trump on the tariffs, partly because they're tanking the economy. Yes. And partly because it's kind of a form of corruption. And when I say kind of in a big way, because you see it already when you have tariffs, then you can take them off. I mean, he put them on China, but he took them off suddenly at the. And then he put them back on, of course, because they never last more than a day on phones and computers. So in other words, you can reward people. I mean, Trump is great at a couple of things. One, finding ways to reward and punish people, and two, finding a way to get bribed. Those are like two of his biggest skills at crypto. Great way to get bribed. And this is also a great way to bribe somebody.

[Matt Welch]

And look at the through line. So you've got. They give millions of dollars to his inaugural, then there they are on the dice, the techno bros, you know, the Amazons and iPhones. There they are on the dais when he's sworn in. And here they are. And here he is now, just a little bit later, giving them exemptions from these tariffs that he just put on. And now he's going to take off for them. And like, I just talked to a constituent of mine in Minnesota whose business is in the toilet because of these tariffs. Like, she's not getting exemption. She doesn't know Donald Trump. She can't walk in there and give him a million dollars and let me make a call, you know. But that's the corruption, right? That's the corruption. It's the pay go. It's if you know somebody, you can get something done and if you can't, you're out of luck.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Trump has always talked about, in his inaugural, William McKinley, back when he, he was the tariff man, he was the president when we had high tariffs and no income tax. And Trump says that's how we got rich and that's how we're going to get rich again. What he leaves out of the story is that one of the main reasons why we got rid of the tariffs and replaced it with an income tax, it was supposed to be that small, so they kind of screwed that up. But we got rid of the terrorists because they were a fountain of corruption. That's what they were. That's what they did. Because it wasn't like some, like, really smart guy with the green eye shade making the precise reciprocal tariffs that are going to carve out this manufacturing sector.

[Douglas Murray]

No.

[Bill Maher]

It'd be like in Trump's first term, there's 200,000 exceptions, right. Of the tariffs that he levied against China. 200,000, that's a lot. And so you're just asking one man, the same one person who decided to raise prices on every single American. I don't think we've wrapped our brains around this yet. It's 10% tariffs across the board to the world, let alone China. So that raises the prices on everybody. Something like two thirds of those imports are used by American manufacturers. Whoops. Their stuff got more expensive. So everyone has less money because of one man. And this is not what we were supposed to be doing. Revolution.

[Douglas Murray]

He was asked, how will you determine tariff exemptions? And he said, instinct. Yeah, instinct. Yeah, instinct. You know, I can't improve on the comedy. I just, I. But also, I mean, I just feel like he picked a fight with the wrong bully. He said this week, China needs to make a deal with us. We don't need to make a deal with them. I think that's completely ass backwards. And I'll tell you like I look, I'm always for America. Don't get this with. I want us to win, but this is just the reality of what China is. They're not going to buy planes from Boeing anymore. I imagine that would ripple through the economy. That's kind of a big sector. Also, have you been reading about rare earth metals?

[Matt Welch]

Yeah.

[Douglas Murray]

Okay, let me educate the public because I needed some education on this. First of all, they're not rare. But they are. But they're hard to get, and I can't pronounce them. And China has them all. We're almost completely reliant on them. They go and they make everything work. Cars, planes, things that we use in the military, robots, drones, turbines, missiles, magnets. Apparently everything needs magnets to work. China has 90% of that. Magnets, like a car can't work without magnets. And there's something to do with this metal. Blah, blah, blah, Something, something. I'm going to the store. Okay. To me, this is the essence of what is so fucked up about this country and why nobody can be in the center here where I am, where everything makes sense. Listen to this. We make none of this here, except we have one place here in California, Mountain Pass. They have a rare earth mine there. It takes out of the ground in one year what China does in a day. And this article in the Times said, could we build more rare earth mines, which apparently we're going to need to do since we pissed off China about that. And why should they help us now? You know how long it would take to put it to get the next mine online? 29 years. That's America for you, Doge. Cutting everything ridiculously immediately. And the Democrats, 29 years. Years to build something. I have. I have nothing. I have no question. I have. I'm out. Are you solving the problem, Senator? Uh. Oh, I fucked this up. Go ahead, keep talking.

[Matt Welch]

Okay, we have a slight wardrobe malfunction here, but I think it's. I think it's going to be fine.

[Douglas Murray]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Matt Welch]

What I was going to say about this bill is that, you know, Trump's, like, completely chaotic and peripatetic and unplanned strategy. And meanwhile, the Chinese, first of all, he pisses off all of our allies, so we have no way of mounting any kind of a global strategy to contain China where we need to, because they're stealing our intellectual property, they're dumping products into our country in ways that are bad for American manufacturing. I mean, they're doing some bad stuff. But what he does is piss Everybody off and then nobody knows what he's going to do. And meanwhile. Well, China has a long term plan. They have a strategy that they're proceeding with and here we are and they.

[Douglas Murray]

Can build a mine in a rare earth mine, like in a week.

[Matt Welch]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

And they don't.

[Douglas Murray]

As opposed to 29 years of the zoning and the environmental reviews and all this shit. Not that we don't need Environmental reviews, but 29 years.

[Matt Welch]

But if it takes that long to build stuff, then we're not going to be a country that's building things anymore. And that's our problem.

[Douglas Murray]

I'd say, as a Democratic senator, could you make this an issue? Yes, this is. I mean, I don't think it's that hard for the Democrats to regain the center if they would just go at a thing. I talk about this all the time with our governor here. Just the red tape, the ridiculousness of. It's not that we can't do anything anymore. It's not that we're not allowed to. And I feel like this could. This is low lying fruit for the Democratic Party.

[Matt Welch]

You know, this is a perfect example of where if the Democratic Party is only defending the status quo and not figuring out how we can do things differently and better, we're not going to be ever in a place where we can win back the majority in the Senate. We're not going to be in the place we need to be. And like take housing as an example. We know that if we fix zoning laws so that it's easier to build housing, you can fix the housing supply problem and then housing costs will go down. And that is a strategy that we should be. We should be working on. And that is a lot of. That's at the local level, but we should be rewarding that at the federal level. That's just one example. If we want to have a clean energy economy and it takes us forever to put the transmission lines up and the distribution lines to get power where people need it, then we're never going to accomplish our goals. We've got to fix this.

[Douglas Murray]

So, okay, what do you think of the fact that the people who are getting the big crowds right now are armed? They're going around the country. Thank you. There's that same guy. I call him the always wrong guy. No, I'm kidding. Okay. But I feel like, you know, big crowds again. The shiny object that the Democrats chase all the. It's not about the big crowds that come out to you when you're talking in a festival or wherever they are to. Because I think Bernie showed up at Coachella. That must have been fun for the fans. It's. Who shows up on election day, and I just don't see that's the ticket. I mean, Cory Booker, I know you've worked with him. I like Cory a lot. From my home state of New Jersey, made a speech for 25 hours. Again, just whacking each other off. This is just not what's going to get the job done.

[Matt Welch]

So over 400 million people paid attention to what Cory was doing when he stood on the floor of the United States Senate. I'm not saying 400 million. 400 million people. Wow.

[Douglas Murray]

That's amazing because the country only has 350.

[Matt Welch]

400 million viewers views. I'm sorry, 400 million views. My mistake. 400 million views. And Cory wouldn't say that that's the only thing that we should be doing. But it energized a lot of people. This is not a. What's the one right solution here? This is a. But doing a whole bunch of different things. And you know, if there are 20 people in Winona, Minnesota that want to stand on the curb every Thursday and wave signs, then, like, that's great.

[Douglas Murray]

But you don't really think AOC should be the candidate, do you?

[Matt Welch]

No.

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, good.

[Matt Welch]

No, no. I'm not saying, I mean, like, it's not my job to pick who the candidate is going to be.

[Douglas Murray]

Oh, it's mine.

[Matt Welch]

Yes.

[Douglas Murray]

And it's not. It shouldn't be heard.

[Matt Welch]

Maybe you should talk to the president about that.

[Bill Maher]

I'd like to suggest one. One thing that Democrats can do besides wearing a diaper on the Senate floor is Trump did a 90 day pause of a lot of the tariffs that gives you 90 days pass legislation saying it's no longer an emergency with fentanyl on the border of Canada.

[Douglas Murray]

But how can you pass Work with.

[Bill Maher]

Republicans who are ready to peel right now, Rand Paul, who's already out there sticking his neck out, Mitch McConnell. Other people are doing that. Pass that thing.

[Matt Welch]

Well, so we had that bill on the floor. All the Democrats voted for it. Two, maybe three Republicans voted against it. Didn't go anywhere. And the speaker of the House said, forget it, we're not doing that.

[Bill Maher]

Correct. Keep doing it. So these things are not going to get less, more popular. The tariffs are starting to trickle into people's lives. It's going to get less popular.

[Douglas Murray]

Let me ask you. I have one minute to ask you. I see what you're wearing reminds me a lot of what the ladies on the blue origin wore this week when they win. What it does, it's a sad figure.

[Matt Welch]

Out a way of doing this. I thought about it.

[Douglas Murray]

It's what? It's. It's a nice color. It's the same color. But what did you think about that? And what did you think about all the backlash it made?

[Matt Welch]

I mean, you got to be really, really, really rich to spend that amount of money shooting your wife into space.

[Douglas Murray]

Shooting your wife. Suddenly you want to get married now, eh? Yes. Okay. I mean, all right. I mean, with all the money we wear based on so many things, it just seemed to me like people just want to. I mean, so. So the ladies had a nice day where they could be weightless. You know, I, I 10 minutes.

[Matt Welch]

It's not even a good.

[Douglas Murray]

All right, thank you very much. Time for new rules, everybody. New rules. Okay, New rules. Athletes have to work on maintaining a difference between their let's go face and their I just got kicked in the nuts face. I can't. I can't tell if you're overjoyed or you're in agony. It's like watching a Trump supporter looking at their stock portfolio. New. You know, someone must tell the woman who claims to have gaslit herself into losing 40 pounds. That's not what gaslighting means. Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where someone tries to make another person doubt their own sanity or reality or memories in order to gain power of them. You just learned to tell yourself, put down the cupcake, bitch. Terrible. Terrible. Stop encouraging me. New rule. If ICE wants to kick people out of the country based on their tattoos, it shouldn't be for these ones listed here by Homeland Security. It should be for this guy and this guy, and especially this guy, Nurul. Now that Lebanon has announced it's banning Snow White because it stars Gal Gadot, who is a sergeant in the Israeli Defense Force, someone has to tell them, you're working too hard. No one's going to see that movie anyway. And you're not going to settle 4000 years of acrimony by crossing Gal Gadot. If you want 4,000 years of acrimony, you cross Blake Lively. New rule. Congratulations to the cast of the Breakfast Club, who've reunited for the first time in 40 years, reminding us all what fun those 80s comedy movies were. Which is why I say do Porky's next. Yeah, let's get that gang back together again. Billy, Tim, Pee Wee. Let's see where they are now. Oh, never mind. They're arriving in five minutes. And finally, new rule. Now that the Trump administration that America will pay any price and bear any burden to bring back factory jobs. They have to answer one who's going to take them? Who exactly is supposed to do all this monotonous, low paying labor? Immigrants. They're all deported. It'll probably be robots if we're not using them all for sex slaves. But I'll tell you who's definitely not doing it. Gen Z. The very people who would have to be most invested if this plan is going to work. Is this who we really think Gen Z is? A generation of manly many men who make things with their hands, who get up early and go out to the plant in their hard hats with their lunch pails and come home dirty, gruff men in newsboy caps working overtime at the steel factory. Seriously, these kids can't handle a gig at the Cheesecake Factory. They're quiet, quitting office jobs. If you walk into a department store and ask them for something, they act like you barged into their apartment and woke them up. I'm sorry, but Generation Nepo baby aren't exactly the sinewy, leather skinned workmen of yesteryear. They're doughy gamers who need an emotional support animal to ride in a plane. Can you imagine what they'll need on their lap to operate a crane? I mean, look at the prerequisites. A shift on the factory floor requires focus, eye contact, social skills. How would they survive working elbow to elbow with people who don't share their beliefs on everything? If you're on an assembly line, if one person drops the ball, Lucy has to eat all the chocolates. And when someone falls into the liquid plaster vat, he'll die because it'll just be everybody videotaping it. You know, there's a lot of talk these days about the working class and how the Democrats lost the election by abandoning them, which on a policy basis is ridiculous. But culturally, it's working for Republicans, who are seen by many as bringing back a time when men were men and worked real jobs and their wives stayed home making tuna casseroles and hot daughters. Trump and his MAGA crowd has this testosterone drenched delusion that America will only return to its glory days when men, real men, burly, brawny, manly men, go back to work in red brick factories and have cigarettes for lunch on top of skyscrapers. Okay, but it's 2025 and being masculine is a hate crime now. And Gen Z, they don't care who's for the working class because a lot of them. Let's not paint with a broad brush not all, but a lot of them want to work. They want to know who's for the not working class. Did you know that America has 7 million men in the prime of their life who are neither working nor looking for work, which is more than four times what it was back in the day. No cap. Thank you. There's even a word for it now. Nilf. It stands for not in labor force, which people think. People think this is synonymous with unemployed. It isn't. Unemployed people are looking for work. NILFs are not. They're what we used to call deadbeat people whose great skill in life is somehow getting by either on disability, wink, wink, or money from their parents or whatever Scott Disick does. Listen to this. Half of American parents with adult children provide them regularly with financial assistance, spending almost $1,500 per adult child per month. Wow. Turns out Gen Z was blowing up our 401ks long before Trump got a hold of it. So I know the Trump crowd imagines a gleaming new factory created by high tariffs and thinks, if you build it, they will come. They won't. They're playing Minecraft. They don't. Yeah, they're not saying can do. They say can't even. And if you don't believe me, check out this ridiculous. This video from an influencer who goes by the name Bacteria Baby that went viral a couple of years ago when the idea of returning to a military draft had been floated.

[Bill Maher]

Why is everybody saying Gen Z is gonna get drafted? Like, no. The fuck we're not. And you know why I know that? Because we're just gonna say no. Like, how are they gonna actually force us to get up and go to war? And we're also, like, really mentally ill. I have, like, six of these.

[Douglas Murray]

You've heard the adage about how America has two kinds of people. The white collar types who shower before work and the working class who shower after work. Okay, but this kid doesn't shower at all because he doesn't work at all or want to. Well, that's not quite true. There is one job that 57% of Gen Z say they want to do, but it's not factory work. 57% want to be influencers. Yeah. You know what they say? If you do what you love, you never have to work a day in your life. Especially if what you love is videotaping yourself eating food in your car. All right, that's our show. I want to thank Matt Welts and Persmith and Douglas Murray. Now go watch Overtime on YouTube. Thank you. Best audience in the world. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. Okay. Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO on Demand. For more information, log on to hbo.com.