Andrew Huberman (8:06)

That's right.

Bill Maher (8:07)

And it was like, bill, what, do you want people to get skin cancer? No, I don't. I'm just saying we're solar creatures and we need some sun. And this is a big point of yours, right?

Andrew Huberman (8:15)

Absolutely. I mean, it is true you want to avoid excessive UV exposure. So that's typically in the middle of the day when the sun is overhead. However, one of the very best things you can do for your sleep, your mood, your wakefulness, for your mitochondria. We always hear about the powerhouse of the cell mitochondria, metabolic health and all that is as soon as possible after waking up. Get outside, Take off your sunglasses. Eyeglasses and contacts are fine. Look in the direction of the sun. Obviously, don't force yourself to do it. Blink as you need to protect your eyes. You have a natural reflex that will protect your eyes, but that sets off a circuit. Lining the back of your eyes are some neurons. Your eyes are part of your brain. People don't realize this, but these two things, part of your brain, outside the skull, that viewing of the sun communicates to your brain's central clock causes an increase in all sorts of hormones that are great for wakefulness in the morning. It literally wakes you up. It sets a wave front of wakefulness for mood, focus. All the things people want throughout the day. And most importantly, it sets a timer so that shortly after sundown, your body starts to release something called melatonin. Most people have heard about it as a supplement, but you make it naturally, and that's what makes you feel sleepy. And fall asleep viewing sunlight. I would put right up there next to exercise, like getting your steps in cardiovascular exercise, resistance training, and nutrition as one of the foundations of mental health and physical health. When you view sunlight in the morning, and it's also good to do it in the evening if you can, just for a couple of minutes. When you do that, you're getting very little UV exposure, so you don't have to be worried about damage to your eyes, damage to your skin, skin cancers and so forth. Because when the sun's low in the sky, there's a filtering that happens in the atmosphere. We don't have to go into the details, but it is so important. And when you get sunlight in your eyes like that, what you'll notice is, okay, sure, you can drink your caffeine, you should hydrate, do all those things, but you'll have more energy. After about two or three days, people notice a significant increase in their energy. It also sets in motion a bunch of things related to your immune system. And we can actually say that if you're concerned about longevity, mental health, physical health, that morning sunlight viewing is really the anchor to all of it. And I'm not. Excuse me. Sorry, I didn't mean to go on. But just one final point is that it's very important that people understand that if you miss a day or if it's overcast, the sun, when it's overcast, is still out. People always say, there's no sun where I live. I wake up before the sun comes out. Well, unless you have powers I'm not aware of, you still have to wait like everyone else. But go outside. And so people say there's no sunlight here. Well, compare 8am in the middle of winter on an overcast day to midnight the night before there's sun. What you need are these photons that are coming through. Forgive me.

Bill Maher (10:50)

No, you're here to talk about yourself. All right, well, thank you for coming. Time to meet our panel. No. All right, well, let's. Let's go through some of the other greatest hits of the things that I think are important to health. But I feel like western medicine has been remiss about one is the mind body connection. You talk about that a lot. I feel like doctors mostly, unless they can quantify it, if that's. They can read it on a chart, it doesn't exist. What would you say to that part of the medical community that doesn't really pay attention to the mind body connection and define it for us?

Andrew Huberman (11:33)

Yeah, the mind body connection is essentially the fact that your nervous system, your brain and spinal cord and your organs, they're all in communication with one another. There is a shift nowadays. I mean, my laboratory at Stanford and a laboratory that I collaborate with have done studies, for instance, on a very simple way of breathing that allows the diaphragm, which is involved in breathing, to communicate with your brain and to calm you down very quickly under conditions of stress. I can teach you that now. And then I'll just go into the description of the mind body and I'm happy to entertain why Western medicine has been remiss in not paying more attention to these sorts of things. It turns out the fastest way to calm down under conditions of stress is not to engage in self talk like I'm going to try and calm down. That doesn't generally work.

Bill Maher (12:13)

Right.

Andrew Huberman (12:13)

The fastest way is to use your physiology to lower what it's called your level of autonomic arousal, AKA stress. And it turns out that there's a very specific pattern of breathing that you do unconsciously in your sleep. A dog does right before it goes down for sleep, in which you do a double inhale to maximally inflate your lungs and then you exhale all of that air. So it essentially looks like this. And this is not extensive breath work. It takes about five seconds where you go. That's the fastest way we know to de stress your mind and body.

Bill Maher (12:45)

Unless you're doing it with Coke.

Andrew Huberman (12:46)

Unless you're doing it with Coke. Exactly, exactly. And the reason is it balances the levels of carbon dioxide and oxygen, you know, gases in your system that your brain needs both of and your body needs both of breath work of that sort. The problem is it's been called things like breath work. It's respiration physiology. We've known that how you breathe impacts how you feel and how you feel impacts how you breathe for a very long time.

Bill Maher (13:14)

You know that guy Wim, huh?

Andrew Huberman (13:16)

That's right.

Bill Maher (13:16)

I know. I'm sure you do. I mean he has proved just by breathing. I do his 90 breath thing and you do that 90 times. I don't know why, it's boring. But after you got three times, then you test how long you can hold your breath.

Andrew Huberman (13:33)

That's right.

Bill Maher (13:35)

He's climbed Mount Everest in shorts. Because the breathing apparently has this amazing effect on how it controls the body's feeling of cold and other factors.

Andrew Huberman (13:48)

Yeah, I mean what it does is when. So Wim Hof breathing is related to an ancient technique called tummo breathing, which you do what's called cyclic hyperventilation it's the opposite of what I just did. So instead of emphasizing the exhale, actually we can make it even simpler. If you want to slow your heart rate down and de stress, do a deliberate long exhale. That's the simplest way. There's something called respiratory sinus arrhythmia. The physicians will recognize this. When you exhale, your heart rate actually slows down. Every inhale, your heart rate goes up a little bit. Wim Hof breathing, or tummo is where you deliberately emphasize the inhale. So it's. And as you said, by the third one, you feel different. Why? Because when your heart rate increases that way, it also stimulates the release of adrenaline, also called epinephrine, from your adrenals, little glands that ride atop your kidneys and a brain center in your brain called, has an interesting name, locus coeruleus, which basically fire hoses your brain with a bunch of norepinephrine, which is similar to epinephrine. So you're getting. By breathing more deeply, your heart rate increases, and I should say by inhaling with more emphasis, your heart rate increases. You're releasing adrenaline essentially in your brain and body. Your levels of alertness go up when you emphasize your exhale. So your heart rate slows down and the knob on those neurochemicals gets turned down a bit. So we think so often about using self talk and meditation is a wonderful practice. But all of these things that I'm describing have been known about for thousands of years, long before the neurophysiologists and the psychiatrists and the neuroscientists got into this. This has been known for thousands of years in India in yogic traditions. And one of the reasons why it was so late to arrive here, although arrived first in California, like most interesting things.

Bill Maher (15:24)

Yeah, man, sorry. I've never lived it yet. I mean, just the personal computer, like.

Andrew Huberman (15:32)

Health, you know anyone? I've never lived east of Interstate 5, so there's nothing for California. I've been other places. But one of the reasons why it stayed under wraps is because unfortunately, the US medical system and science has been very wary of anything that has mystical language. So it's called tummo breathing. And I'm a big fan of something called yoga nidra, which is essentially like a nap where you try and stay awake. There's great data that this restores mental and physical vigor. It doesn't interrupt your sleep. So it's. So it's different than a nap, different than meditation. Now we are finally coming to terms with the fact that the mind and the body are connected, duh. This has been known about for thousands of years, and there are now great clinical trials. I've published clinical trials on some of these things, like the respiration physiology, its role in stress, and de. Stress. In fact, if you wake up in the middle of the night and you're having trouble falling back asleep, try just doing some long extended exhales. And get this. This sounds really weird, but it has a basis in physiology. Keep your eyes closed and just move your eyes from side to side behind your eyelids like this, back and forth. Do some long exhales. I can't promise, but I'm willing to wager, like maybe one pinky that within five minutes or so you'll be back to sleep. And it's not mysticism. It's because your eyes and your breathing and how you view the world are one of the main ways that you control your levels of stress or relaxation.

Bill Maher (16:48)

Let's try that tonight. Okay, so we have a. A new regime there in Washington, more radical than we've ever had as far as our health goes. Rfk. What do you think he's getting right, and what is he getting wrong?

Andrew Huberman (17:01)

Okay. Yeah.

Bill Maher (17:05)

You have two minutes and I have two minutes. Okay. Okay. I'm not.

Andrew Huberman (17:10)

I'm not known for being succinct.

Bill Maher (17:11)

Okay.

Andrew Huberman (17:11)

So I know Robert, and I know Jay Bhattachary, our new director of the National Institutes of Health. He was a colleague of mine at Stanford until he took that position. Let me start just briefly with nih. NIH is doing a very thorough audit of the types of science that taxpayers are paying for. I think they're making some good decisions about funding young investigators, meaning new scientists, new laboratories, more vigorously. This is so essential. I'm not saying older scientists need to all retire, but many of them do. I'm not saying that the NIH has only been funding derivative work that's not super, super high progress. But for the last few years, meaning the last 25 years, there's been a lot of emphasis on funding things that are sure to work, which is great, but we've really lost out on some of the bigger discoveries.

Bill Maher (17:55)

Well, let me cut. Let me cut to then mRNA.

Andrew Huberman (17:58)

Okay, sure.

Bill Maher (17:59)

Because, like, I was a guy who did not want the COVID vaccine, but I do want restoratory on mRNA.

Andrew Huberman (18:04)

Sure.

Bill Maher (18:04)

I don't think that that's crazy stuff. Right. In fact, when the next one comes along, I may want to be first online for it. So I'm not down with I like Bobby Too, But I'm not down with him cutting that shit.

Andrew Huberman (18:16)

Yeah. So MRNA is in every single one of our cells. DNA, rna, RNA protein is kind of like the pathway. So MRNA itself is not bad. And the messaging around MRNA vaccines has led people to believe that anything that carries the letters MRNA is bad. We are all here, and we would not be here were it not for mRNA. MRNA vaccines are a relatively new technology, controversial because of their implementation during the COVID pandemic. And indeed, there are people out there who either insist on or have evidence that they have vaccine injuries of some sort. And that has been the rationale for removing this $500 million of support for MRNA research. I'm gonna get some hate. I might get some love. Doesn't really matter to me. What is important for me to say is that there is incredible work on non Covid related MRNA vaccines related to cancers and related to neurologic conditions and. And many genetic diseases and many, many things for which we would be absolutely foolish to ignore the technology.

Bill Maher (19:14)

Who's gonna hate you for that?

Andrew Huberman (19:15)

Well, many people. Well.

Bill Maher (19:17)

And look, I've been a vaccine skeptic. I'm a skeptic of everything medical because everything medical. Let me ask you one final question. How much do you think we know? Like, if you had 100% is everything we could possibly know about medicine and how the body works? My difference with a lot of people is they think we're like at 90%. I think we're at 20.

Andrew Huberman (19:42)

I think we're at 10 at best.

Bill Maher (19:44)

10.

Andrew Huberman (19:45)

And I'll give you a different answer. And I'm not trying to undercut the careers and trust in my friends who are physicians and scientists. I'm a scientist. I'm still tenured at Stanford. And I love science, I love medicine. And I believe in certain medications and supplements and nutrition and behavior. I do think all of it's important. A good friend of mine who's a chair of neurosurgery, perhaps one of the greatest neurosurgeons ever to live, I asked him, I said, what percentage of the information in medical school textbooks in the United States and elsewhere is inaccurate, is just false, and we know it. And he said, at least half given the new information. And then a good friend of mine said to him in the same conversation, what do you think the impact of that is on human health and the treatment of disease, et cetera? And he said, incalculable. We are still in our infancy of understanding. That is not to say we haven't made great discoveries. And I should Say, it's not to say that the NIH is a failed endeavor. It has returned beautifully in many areas of science and medicine. I do think an audit and a revision of what we're doing, a careful audit and revision is great, but we can't just throw things out because of what they're called.

Bill Maher (20:55)

Glad you're on the front lines of all this. Great work. Thank you. All right, let's meet our panel finally. I had a witness who backed me up. Hey, how you doing? Frank, how are you? All right. He is a professor of journalism and public policy at Duke University and bestselling author of the Age of Grievance. Our friend Frank Bruni's over here. How are you? You look great. He's a senior fellow at the Manhattan Institute and author of the bestselling book America Culture Revolution. Wanted to have him on for a long time. Chris Ruffo. Chris, great to see you. And look, because you're a professor now and what?

Frank Bruni (21:41)

I'm just laughing.

Bill Maher (21:42)

Why is that funny? You're a professor I don't like.

Frank Bruni (21:44)

I don't think of myself that way so much, you know.

Bill Maher (21:46)

Well, I hope your students do.

Frank Bruni (21:51)

I think they do when they get their papers back.

Bill Maher (21:53)

Yeah, I'm sure they do. And this is a subject you're very into and have done a lot, I think, great work. And I think you and I are going to agree a lot on this. I was on this tip, I think, before you were even talking about it. But we're not going to talk about that at first because we have to talk about what's most important. And I wish every week was not Donald Trump week, but it is. And so the first thing I want to talk about tonight is what's going on in Washington, D.C. now, I don't know if I was the first one to use the phrase slow moving coup. I know I was using it before he was. Thank you. I know I was using it before he was president the first time. So maybe somebody got to it first, I don't know. And people were laughing at it. I mean, whenever I said he was never going to concede power, they would say, oh, you smoked too much pot. Well, turned out I smoked just the right amount of pot. So now what's going on in Washington, D.C. i'm going to ask you this first because he does this magic trick, you know, he's passing out pizza and it's all about big balls. And we're all laughing at what's going on in D.C. yeah, he's passing out pizza to the Troops. If there was a slow moving coup, Let me just describe some of the steps and you tell me if I'm being paranoid. First create a masked police force. Get people used to looking at that. Normalize snatching people off the street, street. Get them used to that. Normalize seeing the car, the National Guard and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the Capitol, which is basically, you know, has always been a fairly crime ridden city. This is our nation's capital where elections are decided. And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops, not just the national guard there in D.C. but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. So you're having many states troops on the ground there and now they're under federal control. So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence. So when an election dispute might come up, just hypothetically, I mean, I don't want to be a big pessimist and I'm going to pretend for the rest of the duration that the Democrats do have a chance of winning and they might win the next election. I just don't think they're ever going to take power because this is what's going to happen because I think this coup is going to go off a lot smoother than the last one.

Chris Rufo (24:25)

Yeah, I would disagree. And I think actually the stated reason is the reason. Look, Washington D.C. has a higher murder rate than Baghdad, Kabul, most countries in Latin America, most countries in Africa, also.

Bill Maher (24:36)

Less than some cities in America.

Chris Rufo (24:38)

That's true. But the difference is that D.C. is a federal territory. So he has authority and jurisdiction over the District. And if you look at since Trump actually mobilized the National Guard, you've had zero homicides, which is a record in the state. In the district of Washington, D.C. you have an 86% reduction in carjackings. I lived in D.C. years ago when I was a student at Georgetown. I saw carjacking a group of guys at gunpoint, dragging some elderly people out of their car, beating them up, driving away. And so these are real things that affect real people. And there's a very simple lesson. Breaking windows, policing. More law enforcement on the street, less crime. He's proving that. And I think he's challenging other cities that have huge problems as well, that they should get a bit tougher and solve them.

Frank Bruni (25:27)

Well, I don't think one week proves anything. I mean, when he was out giving, as you noted in your opening pizza, he said this has been a huge success. DC Is now based on One week. Based on one week.

Bill Maher (25:43)

I don't know. I would love.

Frank Bruni (25:48)

I would love to meet the statistician who would extrapolate from one week and say, this is a sustainable solution. By the way, it ends after 30 days. But, Bill, can I say one other thing? It is to give Trump credit of a sort. It's an act of political genius, because it is true that we have too much urban crime. It is true that we have too much of it in Washington, D.C. right. But he. So he's putting his finger on a problem that people rightly care about, but then he responds in such an overzealous, performative, and provocative way that Democrats have to say something about it, but they have to figure out how to say something about it without seeming to be soft on crime. And you may have noticed they're not so dexterous with this stuff lately. Democrats. Right.

Bill Maher (26:25)

So I'm just gonna reiterate the one thing I said here that I think is being passed over here. He's creating an army in the nation's capital, not just of D.C. police, but from. I mean, they happen to all be Southern states. Operation Happy Coincidence. And I just think the presence now, now of this army in Washington is going to have its toll taken when the next election comes around. Because, you know, we have a very asymmetrical way of doing elections. When the Democrats lose, it's like, oh, we lost. Enjoy. When the Republicans lose, they don't do that. And they never will do that. I mean, not in the age of Trump. Maybe it'll revert. I don't think so. But whoever is the candidate next time. And of course, this week, we also saw him giving out hats that said Trump 20, 20, 28. I mean, that you would admit is blatantly unconstitutional, would you not?

Chris Rufo (27:26)

Yeah, of course. And I think he's trolling. I don't think that's serious. I don't think he's running. And we'll know long before Election day who's the nominee for the Republican Party. And so I think that is a concern that I don't have. I don't think that's in the cards. And I think he's just, again, telegraphing a sensationalist media narrative, because, look, Trump has been doing this for decade after decade. He's very good at it. He knows that's the source of his power, but I wouldn't take it seriously.

Bill Maher (27:53)

But we seem to be at this point where when he does something that is not constitutional, because we know the Republicans in his party are not going to stop him. It doesn't even register. I mean, this week he said he wants to get rid of mail in voting. Well, the Constitution says the President can't do that. It just. That is not even in the mix anymore. And the reason why he said he wanted to get rid of mail in voting, because Putin. Last week they were in Alaska, had a bro weekend, and Putin told him, that's why your elections are rigged. And if you can't trust Vladimir Putin on the subject of electoral integrity, who can you trust?

Frank Bruni (28:39)

I mean, sadly, Bill Trump has gotten advice from people worse than Vladimir Putin. Sadly. But you said the President is trolling people. I just want to say those things we've gotten used to. The fact that we have. The sentence the President is trolling people is so friggin sad. I used to.

Bill Maher (28:55)

I mean.

Frank Bruni (28:59)

I used to expect and hope for more when it came to the conduct of a president. And quite frankly, I find his conduct humiliating.

Bill Maher (29:05)

But what about Newsom? He's trolling. He's got this new. You don't like it.

Chris Rufo (29:10)

This is not a function of an individual personality. It's a function of technology. Politics works differently in the age of the book, and then radio and then television and now social media. And look, the fact is that social media is driven on negative media cycles. It's driven on rallying up a passionate base of people. And we may not like it. It may not be ideal. We don't have John Adams and Thomas Jefferson anymore. I wish we did.

Frank Bruni (29:36)

And we're never going to have the media.

Chris Rufo (29:37)

But the reality is we have Donald Trump, Kamala Harris and Gavin Newsom, and they're all playing the same game. So I don't think it's fair to just blame it on one man.

Bill Maher (29:45)

But let's edify the people who don't watch the news every week. We're not all playing the same game. There's a new game being played by Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom is now trolling Trump. I've never seen a Democrat do this. I think it's very funny. Can you show some of the Newsom tweets that he's been putting out there? Okay. He's imitating Trump's exact style. I mean, like, he's. This is. This is Newsom. And he will fail as he always does. Sad. And I, the peacetime governor, our nation's favorite, will save America once again. Many are calling me the, you know, Gavin Newsom, many say the most loved and handsome governor. Now I feel like. I feel like Gavin has grasped the essential thing about American culture in this day and age. Don't try to outsmart people. You have to out stupid them. You don't like it, why don't you like it?

Frank Bruni (30:57)

I mean, why don't I like it? It doesn't bode well for the direction we're headed. But I also, the Gavin Newsom stuff, I mean, it's bringing a lot of attention to Gavin Newsom, and at least it's something kind of bold, which Democrats haven't done a lot of, but I'm not sure it's smart. I mean, we have spent since Donald Trump came down that escalator in 2015, Democrats have been mocking him and belittling him as a strategy. And we're now in the second Trump presidency. I don't think this is the way to go.

Bill Maher (31:23)

They've been. Yeah, but they've been doing it in a different way. This is imitating him, this is aping him. I find it very funny. But, you know, maybe you're right, because I saw. I mean, here's the real problem for Democrats is it's not even mail in voting or even the gerrymandering, which, of course is going back and forth now. I mean, Texas did it. Texas has now gerrymandered five districts. They have Austin. I mean, have you ever been to Austin? Austin's a Republican district now. Their motto is Keep Austin weird. That's some heavy duty gerrymandering. But California has already done it, too, and so have the blue states. But registration, this is really a buried story this week. 30 states allow registration. Well, they have some facts about it now. Democrats, Democrats have lost 2.1 million people. Republicans have gained 2.4. That is a huge turnaround. That is bad news for the Democrats. And I'm sure you would say that is because.

Chris Rufo (32:29)

Well, look, I mean, I think it's good. And I think. I think for precisely the reasons we're talking about, the Democrats don't have a good message. They were utterly captured by their furthest left radicals. They were pushing COVID lockdowns, critical race theory, dei, you know, transgender ideology, you name it. And people are sick of it. Your average middle of the road American is worried about a lot of things. And Trump is not perfect. We can all agree on that. But at least.

Bill Maher (32:57)

But at least we can all agree, but at least no one is.

Chris Rufo (33:01)

He's tapping into, and you could mock his style. And it is funny. The Newsom tweets are funny, but what they're missing is that underneath all of the bluster, the bravado, the orange makeup. You know, he is actually tapping into real fears, anxieties, and even hopes. It may sound ridiculous to people in Los Angeles or Washington, D.C. but that's why he has passionate supporters. That's why you're seeing Republicans expanding the playing field. And that's why you see in a state like Florida where, I mean, it just went gangbusters the last five years, people are, are fleeing from the kind of empty ideologies of people like Kamala Harris and love him or hate him, they're saying that Trump at the very least cares about what we're thinking about. He's addressing real issues.

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Bill Maher (35:16)

Okay, well, let's go to what happened in the Oval Office this weekend, because I don't know if you've been following what happened after lock last week's meeting in Alaska, but Zelensky came to the White House, and this time he was dressed for success. He was not in. He wore a suit and he wore a tie of sorts. It wasn't something I would have picked out, but. And he was there with all the other European leaders and he thanked Trump 11 times. So he got that message. And this is what I'm trying to tell you Here is that what's going on now is that the whole world is sort of becoming the Trump Cabinet. Trump Cabinet have always been huge ass kissers. We used to give away this award. This was the ass kisser of the month award. And now, I mean, this is the Italian Prime Minister. Something has changed thanks to you, the NATO chief. I really want to thank you for your leadership. And this is. He also called him daddy.

Frank Bruni (36:28)

Okay, that's just plain homoerotic. Weird.

Bill Maher (36:34)

The President of Senegal said he's a tremendous golf player. Golf requires concentration and precision, qualities that also make for a great leader. But these not are all the ass kissing that went on in the Oval Office. Would you like to hear some of the Oval? Okay, so Giorgio Maloney from Italy was there. She said, it's ironic. The guy who single handedly putting an end to crime in D.C. just stole my heart. Oh, the President of France was there. Macron. He said, you magnetism puts me in such a trance, my wife had to slap me again. The Chancellor of Germany said, the Nazis convicted at Nuremberg were less hung than you. Oh, I'm telling you, they're all kissing his ass. Zelensky himself said, enough about the warhouse of that ballroom coming along. And then countries that weren't even there started to call in. Viktor Orban. I'm hungry. Left a message. You make me want to be a better strongman. The President of Spain called. He said, not since Don Quixote has there been a man with the balls to take on windmills. The Prime Minister of Japan called up. He said, our declining birth rate is due to our women holding out for a chance with you. Even the leader of the the Taliban called. He said. He said, since meeting you, I've completely lost interest in underage shepherd boys. And even our number one adversary, friend of me, China, Xi Jinping called up. He said, there's only one Donald Trump, no substitutions. Okay? So, all right. Now let's talk about education, because the big story is that Trump is, some people would say, extorting these colleges. Now, look, I told you at the beginning, I've been on this tip for a long time that colleges are out of control. Before Trump was talking about it, I thought, this is crazy. It's a bit of a scam in America that you need a diploma to do a lot of things you really don't need a diploma for. And a lot of the diplomas are bullshit. But a lot of what's going on with Trump, it seems to me, is like he's just like the guy who Used to collect the rents. Did you see the movie the Apprentice? It's fantastic if you have it. Sebastian Stan. It's just so great. And it shows Trump, when he was coming up and his father used to send him out and he would collect the rents. And you know, sometimes when you knock on the door and they open it, they throw hot, boiling hot water at you because they don't want to pay the rent. And I feel like he's still that guy. I mean, he's collecting rents from. Well, he went around to the law firms. You got to pay first of the month NATO, he made them pay Nvidia, they make computer chips. They got to pay 15% the tariffs. That's all that. And now he's doing it to colleges. I mean, I get it that colleges did need some changing. I just don't get why it's about the money. Can you explain that just to begin with? Why is that the method that we're using?

Chris Rufo (40:19)

Let's take Harvard for example. Everyone knows that Harvard discriminated against white and Asian students in its applications. The Supreme Court kind of slapped their wrists. They continued to discriminate and also build out this massive DEI bureaucracy where they had hiring guides that said explicitly put white male applicants to the bottom of the pile. They wrote this down. They had affirmative action plans that I uncovered in some of my reporting that said we want to reduce the number of white men in certain occupations university wide to less than 10%. They wrote this down. They even went around the campus and said, there are too many photographs of white men on campus. Take them down. We don't know who they are. We don't know what they accomplished. We don't know maybe why their posters are up, but take them down. And so all of these things add up to enormous, brazen and systemic violations of the Civil Rights Act. And, and the reality with these institutions is they're so captured ideologically, you can't just reason with them and say, hey, you're violating the law, you're violating a Supreme Court decision. You actually have to make them feel some kind of pain in order for them to modify their behavior and to comply with the law. I think that is the substantive case and I think it's starting to work. Harvard is getting rid of their segregated graduation ceremony. They feel inside the university that they have to figure out how to bring it back to comply with the law and come back to the middle. So I think it's good.

Bill Maher (41:43)

Segregated graduation ceremonies, meaning that's right after.

Chris Rufo (41:47)

The main convocation at Harvard for a Number of years. This is a story that I broke. They had separate racially segregated graduation ceremonies.

Bill Maher (41:55)

Asked for by who?

Chris Rufo (41:58)

Administrators, the DEI bureaucracy. And they had black, Asian, Latino, lgbt.

Bill Maher (42:06)

To be clear, this is not white people asking for separate white ceremony. This is minorities asking for their own separate.

Chris Rufo (42:12)

Correct. And the university provided separate graduation ceremonies for all groups except for whites and by extension, Jews. And so, look, I said this is a violation of the Civil Rights Act. They kept it up for a little bit. They finally abolished it under pressure, but that's just the kind of thing that they think it's a good idea. But what Trump is showing is that the American people send $150 billion a year to America's universities. There's basic obligations, basic rules they have to follow. And if they don't follow those rules, they don't deserve public cash.

Bill Maher (42:44)

So, as a professor. And you are.

Frank Bruni (42:46)

Yeah.

Bill Maher (42:47)

Okay.

Frank Bruni (42:50)

I will now cop to it.

Bill Maher (42:51)

Yes, yes. What is your view on that?

Frank Bruni (42:54)

Well, my view on that is Chris has identified a lot of real problems in higher ed, you and your allies. And I really respect the fact that you. I pick up my colleague Michelle Goldberg's column, you call her back, you talk to her, you're on the Daily and all of that. But I don't understand how holding up. I think it's up to $2.6 billion in research money to Harvard, most of which is going not to the humanities, not to the social sciences, which is where you find stuff like critical race theory, but it's being held up from actual scientific research. I don't see how that connects with the complaint. I don't see how it connects with anti Semitism. I also think it's really dangerous.

Bill Maher (43:29)

It doesn't.

Frank Bruni (43:30)

There's been a lot of debates.

Bill Maher (43:31)

It doesn't.

Frank Bruni (43:31)

There's been a lot of debates about international students.

Bill Maher (43:33)

No, it doesn't connect. Again, Trump very often identifies something that is a real problem and then goes about monkeying with it in just the wrong way.

Frank Bruni (43:43)

Yeah, you have a headache. Here's some leeches. That's the way it goes.

Bill Maher (43:46)

You know, it's like they actually still do years. We do.

Frank Bruni (43:51)

But I also want to say, you asked me, because I am a professor and because I've been at Duke for more than four years now, I want to say that some of the descriptions, everything you accused Harvard of may well be true. It's not all of Harvard, and I tell you, it's not Duke. I also go and give speeches at many of these schools, and the complaint against them, while it has legitimate Elements in it ends up amounting to a caricature. I have taught at Duke for four years. I have brought conservative speakers to campus. I've had them zoom in. I've never had a school complained. I sit here. Not yet being canceled, maybe this academic year.

Bill Maher (44:24)

Duke's in the South.

Frank Bruni (44:26)

Universities are much more complicated places and they're much more diverse places in good ways.

Bill Maher (44:31)

But after 2020, we did see a lot of professors who were shit canned just for not having the one true opinion. I mean, just for saying things that were just. Can't we debate? I mean, one of them got fired because he objected to Biden's appointing of Ketanji, Brown, Jackson. He's just not a racist. He was just saying, I don't agree with that. A pick. That's where we were. Things like that. Or when, you know, somebody would say racism is a public health issue, well, maybe we should designate it as that. But that was a new idea. It was like when we said obesity is a disease, a new idea. Maybe we'll come to that. But the fact that he got fired for that, we just couldn't even talk about that. This is a new way of looking at things. That's what my problem with the left has always been in this new and the woke era, that they don't allow for debate. They come up with some very, very new ideas like gender is just a construct and we don't believe in colorblind society anymore. We see race things that are very different than we. And if you don't agree right off the bat, then you're a bigot, you're a racist, you're a bad person. And we know you are a bigot and a basic bad person. No, but, no, that's why I would say a couple.

Chris Rufo (45:57)

One is that, I mean, Harvard is really the poster institution for that kind of ideologically driven cancellation.

Bill Maher (46:03)

Right.

Chris Rufo (46:04)

About 1% of professors at Harvard are conservative. So that diversity you're talking about certainly isn't there. And look, the reality is that this is the law. I'm all for debate. If you want to come to a university and say men can become women, we should treat people differently on the basis of race. We should have a communist utopia. That's fine. I actually think that's healthy for an intellectual, intellectual environment. But it's quite different from an administration practicing illegal racial discrimination. And so the question about scientific funding is this. It's not. Well, why does Trump tie up scientific funding for the bad behavior of the Harvard central administration? The question is, why is Harvard's Central administration so committed to violating the Civil Rights act that they're willing to sacrifice that $2 billion in funding? That's a much more interesting question because.

Bill Maher (46:48)

Their endowment because their endowment is $43 billion.

Frank Bruni (46:52)

That's not entirely fair. The story is not over, for one thing. And they're not saying, we're not going to pay you money, we're not going to unleash that funding because we're going to keep committing civil rights violations. They're saying, we think the requests that you're making of us absolutely destroy our academic freedom. That's a different concern than a desire to keep violating laws.

Chris Rufo (47:10)

But look.

Bill Maher (47:11)

Yeah, all right, let me ask before we run out of time. So Oklahoma is having a America first test. Teachers who are applying. Oklahoma's have a test, a teacher shortage. So they need to attract teachers and they have a school chief there who's, to say the least, a Republican. And he's saying anyone who applies, they're going to get a test to root out woke indoctrinators. Now, I'm not sure that teachers from California, New York are anxious to be teaching in Norman, but maybe is this a legitimate concern that a teacher from California would come to Oklahoma and be a woke indoctrinator?

Chris Rufo (47:58)

Well, I looked up the data and it's about fewer than five per year teachers from California are applying to be teachers in Oklahoma. So on one case in one hand, this is a kind of media spectacle, right? It's not serious in itself, but I actually think there's a real issue underneath it. The issue is this. Every institution operates on a system of values, either explicitly or implicitly. And what the superintendent is a friend of mine is saying with this is that Oklahoma public schools, which are paid for by Oklahoma taxpayers that serve Oklahoma families and educate Oklahoma children, should have an explicit set of values that respond to the people. In other words, the public institutions should reflect the values of the public. And look, look, I think California schools and New York schools and Oklahoma schools and Florida schools should all be different. That's why we have 50 states. That's why we have the system that we have. And I'm fine with Oklahoma having a different system and making sure that their teachers.

Bill Maher (48:51)

But what if the public is wrong? And what if the public and their belief goes against what the Constitution says? For example, this guy wants to put the Ten Commandments in the school, but that's not what the Constitution. Constitution says we don't have any state religion. Can we put the Koran in there?

Chris Rufo (49:10)

Well, look, the Ten Commandments is a contested legal question. And we'll see if they take it to the Supreme Court, we'll see what the outcome is. But I think that the point is, is that.

Frank Bruni (49:20)

What do you think?

Chris Rufo (49:21)

Is that they're saying that they want to have Oklahoma schools that reflect the values of the people in the state. That's a completely reasonable thing.

Bill Maher (49:28)

And look, Oklahoma, it's reasonable unless it's unconstitutional. All right, thank you, guys. That was fun. Time for new rules. Okay, new rule. You know you're getting too chummy with another world leader when the start of your summit looks exactly like the opening arrivals on the Bachelorette. Are you here to end the war in Ukraine or go on a hot air balloon date? I mean, at least now we know why this guy always looks like he didn't get a rose. New rule. Tourists must stop taking selfies that look like they're holding up the leaning towers a piece of. I mean, it's cute, but it's been done to death. And if you really want to straighten out the tower, try this. Now that the watch brand Swatch had to pull this ad where the model is pulling his eyes to appear slanted, get ready for company to start making more ads like that. I haven't thought about Swatch in years. And I hadn't thought about American Eagle jeans ever. But. But now I'm thinking about both. If you want your stock to rise, stop trying to make people say, I want that and start figuring out how to get them to say, I'm going to kill your stock. CEO. Now that researchers have discovered that it's common for some birds to experience sex reversal where a male bird presents as a female, they have to answer the next obvious question, how long before he's on the girls swim team? And for you true ornithologists, you probably also know that female baby birds can also be born as males or as it's known in professional circles, chicks with dicks. Neural. If you want people news story, don't say horse rescued with crane after falling in pit. Oh, my God. Internet, please. You invented clickbait. This is what you do. That's the best headline you could come up with. Let me help you out. Total stud pulled out of dirty hole, hung like a horse. And finally, new rule. I told you so. I've been telling Democrats for years the Republicans are going to steal pot from you as an issue. And now Trump says we're looking at reclassification and we'll make a determination. What did you expect? He is the master at winning votes from small groups. Who are passionate about one issue, picking up a couple percent here, a couple there, until on election night it's ymca. While Democrats offer up high minded intangibles like equity and and saving the soul of America, Trump says hey waitress, how'd you like to pay no tax on those tips? Remember that? And everybody was like, why didn't we think of that? Las Vegas is a town where everybody gets tipped. So maybe that's why Trump was the first Republican to win Nevada in 20 years. You know by how much? 50.59% because napalm in the morning smells like victory. He did it with the tips. He got the TikTok vote. He got the people for whom toilets are very important vote. He got the enough of taking our shoes off at the airport Vote the crypto bro, vote the tech bro. Vote the bro bro vote. He got rappers and kaleaters. Oh yeah, Bobby Kennedy will never be president, but his make America healthy again people. Oh, that's another, I don't know, 4% he picked off. And they're ride or die choosy yoga moms choose natural sugar and soda, not corn syrup. And they want vaccines to be their choice. And they think your breakfast cereal shouldn't glow in the dark. It might sound like snake oil to you, but remember Bobby Kennedy actually cooks with snake oil. Trump never forgets. It's only hypocrisy if you had other beliefs to begin with. In his first term he signed an executive order banning TikTok and then got trounced by young voters. So in 24 he campaigned on saving it and apparently every tide pod eater responded because his youth vote was up 21% in his first term. He called cryptocurrency not money and based on thin air and said it seems like a scam. And who better to know a scam. Well, well, that was then. Now he's on more coins than Julius Caesar. Overnight he became the crypto candidate as opposed to Biden, the crypt keeper candidate. So chalk up another 1 or 2%. Democrats used to own Silicon Valley. Those California do gooder liberals who wanted to save the planet. Yeah, right. Trump came along and said regulations. We don't need no stinkin regulations. Not only did he win them over in his second inauguration, they were all sitting up on the stage with him. There was an entire section that looked like the full range of the autism spectrum. Trump, Trump said he would build. He said he would build 10 Freedom Cities with flying cars. Is that going to happen? Of course not. But that kind of talk gets incel nerds harder than an only fans model who speaks Kling. Trump runs her office like that kid in 8th grade who ran for school president on a pledge of more snow days. Okay, I was that kid. Now. Now could I actually make it snow more? No. But elections are won on the margins by a coalition of little things that hit people personally. Trump gets this. He feels your pain in the ass. Kamala ran on democracy, which is the most important issue. But without the political skill to sell it, it added up to nothing. Meanwhile, Trump was running on I'll make the poop go down. He never shut up about bad shower pressure, shitty light light bulbs and low flow toilets. Not exactly ask not what your country can do for you, but for some little niche group, it was all that mattered. He's right. It shouldn't take two flushers to make my shit go away. That's my guy. YMCA People say it doesn't make sense. He's a billionaire from New York no less, and everything he sits on is gold. How could he possibly connect with the common man? And yet he keeps winning more of them. Trump got trounced by Black voters in 2016, so he brought in some muscle from the west coast, someone he knows. Black men love Kim Kardashian. Yeah. Together they passed the First Step act, which scaled back restrictions on felons, a connection he built on in 2024 by becoming one. And then he pardoned Lil Wayne and pardoned Kodak Black and the CEO of Jay Z's company and the founder of Death Row Records and the former mayor of Detroit. So it's not surprising that Kanye and Wayne and Chris Brown and Amber Rose and Snoop and Dababy all talked him up that last one out of professional courtesy. Now, did he win the black vote? Not even close. But he doubled what he got in 2020 in places like Philly, Detroit and Milwaukee. That was the difference. And now he's going to do it with pot. Finally, he got around to me. All right, that's our show. We're off next week and back on the fifth. I want to thank my guest, Frank Rooney, Chris Ruffo and Andrew Huberman. Club random drops Every Monday on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast. Thank you, folks. Watch Overtime on YouTube now. Catch all new episodes of Real Time.

Chris Rufo (60:14)

With Bill Maher every Friday night at.

Bill Maher (60:16)

10 or watch him anytime on HBO on Demand.

Andrew Huberman (60:19)

For more information, log on to hbo.com this episode is brought to you by FX's Alien Earth, the official podcast. Each week, host Adam Rogers is joined by guests, including the show's creator, cast and crew. In this exclusive companion podcast, they will explore story elements, deep dive into character motivations, and offer an episode by episode behind the scenes breakdown of each terrifying chapter in this new series. Search FX's alien Earth wherever you listen to podcasts.