Ep. #709: Louis C.K., Van Jones, Thomas Friedman

Summary

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Real Time with Bill Maher – Episode #709 Summary

Guests: Louis C.K., Van Jones, Thomas Friedman
Date: October 4, 2025
Main Theme:
This episode dives into escalating global conflicts and growing divisions in America, touching on the Israel-Hamas conflict, US political dysfunction, the changing media landscape, and the gender gap in US politics. It starts with a comedic interview with Louis C.K., then transitions to a lively panel discussion with Van Jones and Tom Friedman, closing with a memorable "New Rules" monologue on America's pronounced gender split.

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1. Interview: Louis C.K. on His New Novel and Performing in Saudi Arabia

[07:11–19:41]

Main Points:

• Louis C.K. debuts as a novelist
  • New novel "Ingram" tells the story of a Depression-era boy’s journey after being abandoned by his father.
  • Discussed the writing process, inspiration, and how it veers from his personal history.
  • Notable Quote (Louis): "I just imagined what... how they must do it, and I made it up." ([10:52])
• Comedy and Cultural Exchange in Saudi Arabia
  • Louis shares why he’s performing in Saudi Arabia, the lifting of some speech restrictions, and the broader significance of going.
  • Notable Quote (Louis): "When I heard it's opening, I thought, that's awfully interesting... I think comedy is a great way to get in and start talking." ([14:28])
• Debate Over Whether to Perform in Restrictive Environments
  • Acknowledges criticism from comics like David Cross and Marc Maron, former close friends, about entertaining in Saudi Arabia.
  • Engages with the "appeasement vs. engagement" ethical debate.
  • Notable Quote (Louis): "I have mixed feelings about it too. I struggled about going once I started hearing what everyone was saying." ([17:07])
• Artificial Intelligence and Artistic Uniqueness
  • Louis and Bill discuss if AI can replace comedians and artists.
  • Louis argues AI can imitate but not innovate or connect authentically.
  • Notable Quote (Louis): “Art is about connecting with people.” ([18:18])

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2. Panel: Van Jones & Thomas Friedman – On Israel, U.S. Politics, and Media

[20:09–48:18]

The Israel-Hamas War and Middle East Dynamics

[20:28–31:43]

• Prospects for Peace:
  • Panelists react to news of a potential ceasefire and exchange of Israeli hostages.
  • Friedman warns, “The but is bigger than the yes right now... there’s a whole bunch of buts...” ([22:12])
  • Van Jones focuses on the information war: “All I've been about is... end this thing... where there is a Palestinian partner and you have a real alternative to Hamas.” ([25:51])
• Global Perception & Disinformation:
  • Friedman highlights the power of TikTok and disinformation campaigns shaping youth attitudes worldwide: “Iran and Qatar have come up with a disinformation campaign... through TikTok and Instagram, and that is massive.” ([27:43])
  • The double standard in media coverage, particularly toward Israel, is dissected.
  • Friedman: “No Jews, no news. As long as you can put the Jewish state in the conversation, it's going to be a big conversation. If you can't, you get no attention at all.” ([29:08])

Impact of Social Media and Division

[46:13–48:18]

• Media's Role in Polarization:
  • Van Jones: “We are being divided by companies for profit... a giant industry to make people stupid and angry.” ([46:49])
  • Tom Friedman: "You ordered a yoga mat... your algorithm figured out you're a liberal. Your neighbor looked up a truck, you're a conservative... you're in different algorithmic universes.” ([47:37])

American Domestic Politics: Government Shutdown, Healthcare, and Voter Sentiment

[35:13–41:15]

• Shutdown Politics:
  • The episode explores the latest shutdown, connecting it to the battle over healthcare.
  • Friedman criticizes Democratic strategy: "[You] can always trust our party to do the wrong thing at the wrong time for the right reason." ([36:47])
  • Van Jones urges a focus on independent voters: “Independents are looking at all this stuff... and they're sitting back and saying there is some crazy shit going on." ([37:58])
• Economic and Political Leverage:
  • The panel debates timing and political leverage around shutdowns and healthcare funding.

American Military and Populist Rhetoric

[42:01–45:48]

• Trump and Militarization:
  • Discussion of Trump’s suggestions about using US troops in American cities.
  • Van Jones and Friedman ridicule recent right-wing sexism and "warrior ethos" criticisms of modern military.
  • Friedman: “The women who are in our armed forces can kick his ass any day of the week.” ([45:48])

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3. Bill Maher’s "New Rules": The Gender Divide in America

[48:32–59:25]

Main Arguments:

• Growing Gender Split in US Politics:
  • Maher jokes about America as "the Mommy Party" (Democrats) and "the Daddy Party" (Republicans), noting a widening gender voting gap.
  • Notable Quote (Maher): "Women are the Democrats base, and men who get hit in the head for a living are Trump's. They're the Bro Party..." ([52:36])
• Cultural Reflections:
  • Explores differences in male and female podcast preferences and cultural tastes.
  • Highlights disparities in attitudes toward mental health between boomer men and Gen Z women.
• Call for Stronger Female Leadership Style:
  • Maher argues Democratic women must “look tough,” not preachy or oversensitive, referencing public figures like Alyssa Slotkin and Kamala Harris.
  • Critiques Harris's memoir and the tendency toward victimhood in political narratives: "Perpetuating victimhood, especially when it's false, is not a great advertisement for leadership." ([55:15])
• Closing Thoughts:
  • Urges self-awareness, humor, and resilience among Democrats and women in leadership.

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4. Notable Quotes & Moments

• Louis C.K. on Imagination:
  • “I've never been on [an oil refinery]. I have no idea. I've never read about one or watched a movie about one. I just imagined what... how they must do it, and I made it up.” ([10:52])
• Tom Friedman on TikTok’s Impact:
  • “If you are a young person, you open up your phone and all you see is dead Gaza baby, dead Gaza baby, dead Gaza baby...” ([27:43])
• Van Jones on Division:
  • “We are being divided by companies for profit... it is now a giant industry to make people stupid and angry.” ([46:49])

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5. Key Timestamps

• Louis C.K. Interview begins: [07:11]
• Panel discussion begins: [20:09]
• Israel segment: [21:20–31:43]
• Domestic/Government shutdown discussion: [35:13–41:15]
• Media/algorithmic division: [46:13–48:18]
• New Rules & Gender Divide: [48:32–59:25]

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Episode Tone

Witty, irreverent, and at times biting—characteristic of Maher's style, but with significant moments of genuine introspection and debate, especially regarding the division in American society and the West’s role in global conflicts.

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For those who missed it, this episode is a whirlwind of sharp humor, political analysis, and cultural reflection—equal parts comedy and confrontation.

Transcript

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[Bill Maher]

Thank you. How you doing? Thank you very much. Thank you, people. How are you? Thank you very much. So great to see you. Thank you. I thank you. Thank you. Whoa. Right back at you. And I, I appreciate you being in.

A, in a good mood. Cause you know you're gonna have to live with the government without the government for a while. You know this. Why are we laughing at that? It's.

They did it.

I feel like we do this every fucking year. This story, government shutdown, government shutdown. And Trump is devastated about it. You know how much he loves the government. He said, next you're gonna tell me Wendy's is all out.

Government'S closed, I'm.

Going to have to play more golf. But luckily he's negotiating calmly and in good faith. I'm joking, of course. He said today, tweeted out that the Democrats are the party of hate, evil and Satan. It's good faith, which is so ridiculous. If they ran Satan, they would have won Florida.

I kid Florida. I love Florida. But no.

Trump knows how to negotiate this. We're gonna get over this. You know how you do it? You get everybody in a room, preferably a ballroom, and you say, nobody's leaving here until you check out these cherubs.

Are these not. Because it is.

Oh, cherubs. This is a manly administration. I don't know if you saw the other big thing that happened in Washington this week. Our defense secretary, Pete Hegseth.

He called.

In from all over the World, the 800 highest ranking service people. We have the generals and the admirals.

[Van Jones]

From all over the world.

[Bill Maher]

Did you see that room. Oh my God, it was more crew cuts than in a lesbian bar.

Wow. But.

Cause that is the thing you want to do most. You want to get your most critical people in the command structure all gathered in one room, hopefully with the doors locked from the outside. And then Pete gave them a TED Talk about how much he has had it with the military, which is too gay, too woke, too sloppy, too badly groomed, too obese. He's not wrong about that last one for sure. Well, no, these are facts. Almost 70% of the military did you know this is overweight. The song the Marines sing now is from the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Triple X.

Well, you know, come on.

But Pete says that shit ends now. We are changing our motto from Semper Fi to no fat chicks. By the way, I love this. He included the generals in this. There's too many fat generals and admirals walking around the halls of the Pentagon. Are you kidding? This is supposed to be an exercise in morale building because nothing pumps you up like taking a 22 hour flight to be yelled at by a Fox News dry drunk about your love handles. And.

Yeah, I love this. And you know, a few weeks ago.

They changed the name of the, you know, Defense Department of the Department of War. So that's how he started. He said, welcome, the War Department is now the Department of Defense. No, the other way around. The Department of Defense is now the Department of War, you fucking hippies.

And he called them, said.

He said, no more beardos. I'm not kidding. He used that word. I never heard that word. Apparently a combination of weirdo and beard. No more beardos. And he did his shaving Private Ryan hunk. It's funny, half the speech was about a warrior ethos that we want and manly men and the other half was grooming tips.

Really?

Because nothing says warrior ethos like what products you use. So to recap, no gays, just buff hairless men and no beards. That's when Lindsey Graham went, what? No beards.

All right, we, we got a great show. Dan Jones and Tom Friedman are here. But first up. Oh, I wanted him on for a long time.

An Emmy award winning WR actor, director and comedian is forthcoming novel now INGRAHAM Comes out November 11th. LOUIS CK.

Hey, Al, how are you? How are you? Good to see you. All right.

All right. I think I will let that standing ovation speak for itself.

[Louis CK]

Sure.

[Bill Maher]

Thank you. And get right, and get right to the book because Louis, you're a knockout. You've worn so many hats and now you're wearing the hat of a novelist. I just want to know why. You know, I looked at some of the stats about how much novels sell.

[Louis CK]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

In a country of, I think 340 million people, if they sell 10,000, it's like a hit.

[Louis CK]

It's incredible.

[Bill Maher]

So you're doing it for the money?

[Louis CK]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

But really, why? Why get into a dying art form like that?

[Louis CK]

Well, I love fiction and I love writing, and I wanted to be a novelist when I was a kid. That's what I wanted. But in high school, I did a lot of drugs and I kind of ran my brain dry. And so then I got into comedy and tv, which is a little easier than writing novels. But I think I regenerated more brain cells. I don't know what it is, but I got into it. I got into writing short stories a few years ago, and then this one just turned. It just kept going. I didn't expect it to be one. I didn't outline it or anything. It just kept coming.

[Bill Maher]

Well, I told you, I called you. I said it reminds me a lot, first of all, of Dick Dickens. He was a novelist. He was. The kids don't read. They don't make them read anything anyway. And a great one. And also Mark Twain a little bit. It's very Huckleberry Finney. I mean. I mean, it's so interesting because. I mean, why don't you tell basically what it is? It's called Ingram, and it's the story of a boy in the Depression. Just give me the skinny of it.

[Louis CK]

Yeah. So just this boy who's sitting on the porch outside his house and there's like a pig sleeping next to him. And that's his life. Like, he's never been to school. His parents have very little and they're struggling. And one day his father says, I'm going to sell the horse. And, you know, tells his mother to slop all the animals and, you know, to take care of stuff. And he never comes back. So him and his mother are kind of like starving. So his mother just tells him, you should go because I can't help you. So he's like nine and he just hits the road. And he's never seen a highway. He's never been anywhere. So it's him discovering the world.

[Bill Maher]

And everything is through his first person eyes. That's what reminded me of the Dickens thing. Yeah.

[Louis CK]

Like, he doesn't even know what pavement is. So he calls it like hard, gray dirt.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Louis CK]

And so I just took him. He was in my Head. And I just kind of dictated.

[Bill Maher]

Usually they say write what you know.

[Louis CK]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

This didn't seem like that. No, I'm just curious. I just was like, why? I didn't know what the book was when I got it. I was like, wow, is this Louis childhood?

[Louis CK]

Well, I mean, I had. My dad wasn't around, but my mom worked really hard and raised four kids.

[Bill Maher]

But you knew pavement.

[Louis CK]

Sure, I knew pavement. Yeah. I knew it really well, actually. I used to eat gum off of pavement. I'm not even.

[Bill Maher]

I did.

[Louis CK]

In the summer, it gets warm, and you can get it.

[Bill Maher]

Get it off.

[Louis CK]

But I grew up in a suburb of Boston, and my mom was working all day, so I was alone a lot. I had sisters, but they're living their own lives. And I used to. Being a boy can be really lonely, you know. Now, I had a great mother. So Ingram is like me without a mom, you know, in Texas, I guess, Sort of.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, you must have done so much research, though, because.

No.

[Louis CK]

No, nothing. No, I just.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, but like, they were in an oil refinery at one point.

[Louis CK]

Yes. It gets really deep into the details of oil refinery.

[Bill Maher]

How did you know?

[Louis CK]

I've never been on one. I have no idea. I've never read about one or watched a movie about one. I just imagined what. How they must do it, and I made it up.

[Bill Maher]

So. And the other.

[Louis CK]

The other thing is, because of Ingram's innocence, we're only seeing the way he saw it. Do you know what I mean? So I just asked him to tell me what was going on. I never felt in control of the story. He just was telling me what he saw, you know? And some of it gets really weird. He sees some things that I'm not sure what they were.

[Bill Maher]

So I don't know. I mean, it's so moving because he just has this cycle of life where he keeps thinking it's gonna get better, and then it's three steps forward, two steps back. And he keeps trying to connect with people, and they always seem to abandon him. He finally does make one friend, this character Bart.

[Louis CK]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

And then they're roommates at this, I guess, this oil refinery. It's a tough life. And they're in the same small room, and I noticed you go into one, he kind of loses his friend. Because one night, Ingram discovers masturbation.

[Louis CK]

That's right.

[Bill Maher]

And kind of pays a high price for that.

[Louis CK]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Where do you get your ideas?

[Louis CK]

Yeah, well, like you said, write what you know.

[Bill Maher]

Well, that was good, Phil.

[Louis CK]

That was really good.

[Bill Maher]

I read the book carefully. I really loved it. So you're going to Saudi Arabia. You're part of this big festival over there. I mean, what do you think about the fact that we have a schism here in the comedy community now? I'm going to throw my cards on the table here. I have mixed feelings about this, but I basically think it's a great idea to go and go anywhere like that because purists bug me because they think change has to happen overnight. Change doesn't ever happen overnight. There are restrictions on what you can say because this is the first time. But somebody has to go the first time and do your act. You're not allowed to talk about religion or the royals. Well, royals is the government and religion. Without that, I would have no act.

[Louis CK]

Right, right.

[Bill Maher]

I still think the people who are doing it are brave. And it's. Apparently the ones over there are enjoying it.

[Louis CK]

Yes, they're all.

[Tom Friedman]

What.

[Louis CK]

I'm talking to other comedians that have been there, and they've been really surprised by what's going on. There is a woman who's lesbian and Jewish who did a show there, and she got a standing ovation. And so there's stuff going on that's unexpected in this thing. And people have been playing Saudi Arabia for years. Like, comedians have been going and playing Arab countries. There was a film festival there recently. Like, it's kind of opened up. But I've always said no to Arab countries doing shows. I do shows everywhere. Like this show I'm playing in India, I'm playing in Turkey, I'm playing in Bangkok, Hong Kong, all over the world this year. And when this came up, they said there's only two restrictions. It's their religion and their government. I don't have jokes about those two things. It used to be when you got. When I got offers from places like that, there'd be long lists. And I just say, no, I don't need that. But when I heard it's opening, I thought, that's awfully interesting. That just feels like a good opportunity. And I just think comedy is a great way to get in and start talking. And there's Saudi Arabian comedians there. And I'm going to a comedy club in Saudi Arabia the first night I get there to just see what's going on. I love standup comedy and I love comedians. So the fact that that's opening up and starting to bud. I want to see it. I want to be part of it. I think that's a positive.

[Bill Maher]

I think so.

Dave Chappelle said it was in the press today. Saying that you can speak more freely over here than in America.

[Louis CK]

I don't know if that's true.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, it's not true. Do your honk on Muhammad, Dave.

[Louis CK]

Yeah, well, he's a Muslim, David.

[Bill Maher]

I understand.

[Louis CK]

So it depends on who you are and what you want to talk about. Now, you go there, there's a pre. Decide, like there's a thing you buy into. Do you want to work here? Then don't talk about these two things. Other than that, my act is pretty offensive to most people, so it's gonna be interesting to see how that feels. You know, to me, that's just an opportunity.

[Bill Maher]

Your act is not offensive. It's edgy.

[Louis CK]

It's offensive.

[Bill Maher]

You wouldn't be nearly as popular as you are.

[Louis CK]

No, no, definitely. It's worthy. Look, I think the whole discussion is worthy. I think it's. I'm glad these guys brought this stuff up. I'm glad that people are challenging this thing. Cause you shouldn't just pretend it's something it's not.

[Bill Maher]

Right?

[Louis CK]

So don't fool yourself. I'm grateful to the comics that brought it up, like David Cross and Marc Maron. It's funny because David and I were roommates when we were 19 years old, we lived together in Boston, and we were just scrappy young guys. And Mark was there, too. He was a dishwasher at a place called the Coffee Connection. And we were just kids trying to be comics in Boston. Dave had this bit about shaving the Pope's. That was one of his bits. This is the kind of. And I just loved him because he was so. You know. And then later, David Cross wrote an open letter to Larry the Cable Guy telling him to quit comedy. You can look that up. Because he hated him. So he's an opinionated guy. These guys were my friends. I used to hang out with them constantly. And what brought us together was that we were comedians and we loved comedy.

[Bill Maher]

And they're on the other side of the dividend.

[Louis CK]

They're on the other side of the debate. And I. And I, we've drifted as friends, and I missed them. But it's just funny to me today I was thinking about that. That all this crazy thing going on, it's those two guys. And then I walked by a car that didn't have a driver, and I was like, it's the future now. And life is so weird that my roommate and I are in this weird. You know what I mean? But I. I'm grateful for what he said because you should say that side, too. I Think everything that's being said about it, about that's a worthy discussion. When are you appeasing? When are you engaging? And I have mixed feelings about it too. I struggled about going once I started hearing what everyone was saying.

[Bill Maher]

Now you're doing the right thing.

[Louis CK]

Well, I don't know that's the right road.

[Bill Maher]

There's some.

[Louis CK]

There's some good in it, maybe some bad in it. But I think for me it cuts towards going. And that's my decision. And I know where it's coming from because I can see right inside myself.

[Bill Maher]

And everything is about the future. What do you think about the future? Like, let me ask you one final question, AI. I'm so curious about where you are on AI Because I feel like maybe this is just because we're comics and I love us. So I think that we are like the last thing AI can do. I think if AI could do what you could do, then the world is over. Because what somebody like you does is think of things that have never been thought of before. That's why it's a bit. If anybody had ever thought of it, it wouldn't be funny. It wouldn't be a bit right. And I can only like, look into the past and whatever on the Internet forever. I don't think it can ever do what we do well.

[Louis CK]

I think AI can imitate us really well. AI can probably listen to me and make a bit that sounds like me, but it can't come up with a new comedian. And like, I have a friend who's an editor. And editors are getting wiped out by AI because AI can see, see the rhythm of editing and it can imitate it. But the problem is those new jobs for editors and writers, the schleppy jobs. That's where great editors and writers come from. The training ground is doing the early small position jobs and then having an idea. What if you did it this way? The reason that art keeps growing is because there's weird people with unpredictable ideas, like mutating it. But I think the problem. AI will be so efficient that a lot of companies will do it, but it'll freeze. It'll freeze the progress. But that'll just be for the companies that do it. Somebody else will go, we're doing natural art. And they'll end up winning because people like to connect with other people. Art is about connecting with people.

[Bill Maher]

So. All right, well.

[Louis CK]

There'S a funny thing going on where if you want to write a letter to somebody, you can write the bullet points and then AI will write the letter and then the person who gets it can get AI to read it and give you bullet points. So what the fuck is that, right?

[Bill Maher]

All right, well, if you're still enjoying 20th, 19th century stuff, Louis book is called Ingram. I loved it. He's the new Mark Twain. All right, Police ck. Thank you, pal. Look, be careful over there. All right? I'll see you soon. How do we meet our panel? Okay. Hey, guys. All right. He is a political commentator for CNN.

And the founder of DreamMachine.org and Rapport Co Van Jones.

Yeah, Van, the man back with us. Looking good as always. He's a bestselling author and three time.

PO reporter and columnist for the New York Times. Tom Friedman.

Tom, it's been wait so long since I've seen you.

And the comedy and media gods have blessed us because you were here on the perfect night. Because it's Friday here in Los Angeles and October 3rd, and it looks like maybe peace is at hand, as Henry Kissinger once said about another war in the Middle East. I don't know. This is just again what we're getting today. As of Oct. 3, Trump said he believed Hamas was ready for a lasting peace, demanded Israel stop the bombing. Hamas said they are ready to release all the Israeli hostages. Well, you know, after they killed almost all of them. So let's not get too excited about that based on field conditions. I don't know what that means. But this peace plan, you called it a smart plan in your column yesterday. You say yes. Qatar say yes. Where are we?

[Van Jones]

Well, Bill, this was a very important day, obviously. And the key thing was what would Trump say to Hamas response, which was a yes, but basically, would Trump say, sorry, yes, unconditionally to everything I laid down, or would Trump say, love it, work with it, going with it. And Trump said, love it, work with it, going with it. Which means we're at the beginning of another really long negotiation.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I mean, here's the sticking point. Gaza will be governed under this pan. This is one of the points of their 20 point plan by a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee. And there's lots of those over there. I mean, if it's one thing I've always heard about the Middle east, its passions are low, they run low. So what does that mean? Can anyone.

[Tom Friedman]

Well, look, I'll take hope wherever I can find it at this point. You know, any country would have fought back hard if people had done what was done on October 7th. We've got to remember that. It's the equivalent of 40,000Americans being murdered on one day. And so you are going to fight back. You're going to fight back hard. But revenge is not a strategy. And the problem you have now is that this war has gone on so long that 80% of Israelis want it to wind down. They just want the hostages back. So I'm glad that Trump is trying. I'm glad he's putting pressure on the different parties. But what we know for sure is that the but is bigger than the yes right now. They said yes to get the headline. But. There's a whole bunch of buts here that we're going to have to work our way through. My concern is that you have about a billion young people on planet earth who've only heard one thing about Israel in their entire lives, and that's that Israel is hurting the Gazans. They live through TikTok. That's all they see, that's all they know. And my concern is I think some of my friends in Israel think they've got a hard power military problem against local bad actors. That's true. But they also have a soft power global information war problem with a whole generation that just thinks that they're doing bad stuff. So if they can stop the bombing, which Trump called for, and give people a chance to look at what's going on, we can put the focus back on the hostages and maybe get this thing wound down. That's what I hope.

[Bill Maher]

You said in your column. Netanyahu can declare with some justification Israel is defending Western democratic values by defeating the Islamo fascist Hamas in Gaza. What could be more important than that? I mean, if you agree with that, and I agree with that, aren't we bearing the lead? Isn't that the story of this war? A clash of civilizations? And whose side are we on?

[Van Jones]

The problem for Israel, Bill, is that that has been true on that front with Hamas. And at the same time, Israel in the west bank has been engaged in a Western style colonial enterprise. And the problem was it didn't want always.

[Bill Maher]

Or are you saying recently?

[Van Jones]

Recently. I mean, this government in particular, this is the first Israeli government that came in with a mandate to annex the West Bank. So that's been the problem for the beginning. My view on the war was that Israel was fully justified in responding. But this was a very different enemy, Hamas, because it had basically stationed itself in tunnels under all these civilian hospitals and homes, et cetera. So there's always going to be a lot of civilian casualties. It seemed to me the key thing for Israel was to make clear we're going to Go after these people. We're going to do what we have to do. There are going to be civilian casualties, but it's for the purpose of changing Gaza and producing a different Palestinian government there. Unfortunately, Netanyahu fought this war for two years now without ever committing himself to any endgame, particularly a negotiation with a different Palestinian Authority or a different Palestinian government. And that's what's hurt, to Van's point, that when you're fighting a war and there's no endgame clear, it just starts to look like killing.

[Bill Maher]

Well, what would the endgame be? I don't know. I mean, they gave Gaza back in 2005. They unilaterally gave it back. They have.

[Van Jones]

Well, you know, let me just say that, you know, we can get into this debate. What would the end game be? But this is my reaction to that. Okay, the end game, if you, if you, you can win that debate. But what you win as Israel is you win 7 million Jews governing 7 million Palestinians in perpetuity in the age of TikTok. And that's a losing strategy.

[Bill Maher]

It is.

[Van Jones]

And so all I've been about is trying to, from the very beginning, figure out how to end this thing in a way where there is a Palestinian partner and you have a real alternative to Hamas. Otherwise, Israel winning, you win Gaza forever. And that's a bad, bad thing. If you care about the future of.

[Bill Maher]

The Jewish state, I agree.

That's a bad look for Israel. I just don't know what the better look.

You know, I mean, it's like when you deal with suicide bombers, it's very hard, or anybody who uses suicide attacks, it's very hard to win and negotiate with someone who doesn't care if they live. And let's be honest, Hamas is a kind of a death cult.

[Van Jones]

They have to be defeated. But you have to keep working for an alternative, because if you don't, that is the default. You end up owning Gaza. And that's a really bad thing.

[Tom Friedman]

One thing about Bibi Netanyahu, who is not my favorite politician at all, is that he could just take a W at this point. I agree with you. Trying to figure out how to get all this stuff worked all the way through is difficult. But Hezbollah is essentially decapitated. That's a win. The Assad regime is gone. Iran has been pushed way back. Hamas definitely is no longer. If they think they can do it October 7th again, they're probably going to reconsider it. So there is a victory here on the hard power side. I think the problem is now on both sides. What is. How do you begin to reestablish Israel as the beacon for the young people around the world? In 10 years, the young people right now they're going to. In 10 years, they'll be in parliament, and 10 years after that they're going to be prime ministers. And right now, they don't get the joke. They've lost the plot. And so I think I'm much less concerned about figuring out what's happening inside a Palestinian society than global youth society. And that's where we're losing the plot.

[Bill Maher]

Isn'T part of that because we had to fold everything into critical race theory and somehow the Middle east became part of.

[Tom Friedman]

You know, I see it differently and I love this conversation because I think people, those of us who went to college, give a lot more credit to college courses for how the world works than I do. This is not about critical race theory on college campuses. This is about Iran. Iran and Qatar have come up with a disinformation campaign that they are running through TikTok and Instagram, and that is massive. If you are a young person, you open up your phone and all you see is dead Gaza baby. Dead Gaza baby. Dead Gaza baby Diddy. Dead Gaza baby, Dead Gaza baby.

[Bill Maher]

That's basically your whole feed.

[Van Jones]

So that's not.

[Tom Friedman]

That's not dei. That is a geopolitical advocate adversary. That is. That is. That is deliberately trying to divide the west against itself.

[Bill Maher]

That view is not. But the idea that, I mean, you're talking about young people, a lot of them seem to know one thing. White people did some very bad things in this world, and they certainly did. But there are other things to know.

[Tom Friedman]

Yes. Including the fact that in Sudan right now, which nobody is talking about, you have Arab militia murdering people by the wheelbarrow. Including the fact that Africa right now is being overrun by Islamist terrorists, including Boko Haram, with no conversation about that at all.

[Bill Maher]

I did it last week.

[Tom Friedman]

Exactly.

[Bill Maher]

Nigeria. Yeah. I mean, this is an actual plan. Genocide.

[Tom Friedman]

Yes.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, they really want to kill all the Christians in that country, and they are systematically doing it.

[Tom Friedman]

And the fact that there's almost no response from the global left and no attention from mainstream media is a crime against African people, black people and human rights. I agree with that 100%. It turns out that there's a double standard for Jews. That is true. No Jews, no news. As long as you can put the Jewish state in the conversation, it's going to be a big conversation. If you can't, you get no attention at all. This is a big problem. The thing is, though, it's a big problem. The thing is though, when you're in a hole, quit digging. I would like for Israel to stop doing what it's doing now to give people a chance to catch up this conversation. As long as it's just bad picture after bad picture after bad picture, we're not going to be able to get anywhere.

[Bill Maher]

Your column, you said in Washington if you officials lie in public and tell the truth in private, and in the Middle east, it's the opposite. They tell the truth in private and lie in public.

[Van Jones]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

What do you mean by that?

[Van Jones]

What I meant, Bill, is that, you know, when I was a reporter in the Middle East, I'll tell you a story. I was in Israel and Yitzhak Rabin then the Defense Minister was talking about South Lebanese. He said, if the south Lebanese don't behave and stop doing what they're doing, we're going to break their bones. Happened to me that day. I had an appointment with Rabin, went to his office. That's a pretty powerful quote. Went to his office, Mr. Defense Minister, if south Lebanese don't behave the way you argue, what will happen to them? He said if they don't behave the way they should, something bad is going to happen to them. Okay. He realized he was talking to the New York Times. Okay, so what people say to you in private in the Middle east is irrelevant. All that matters is what they will defend in public in their own language. And that's why I always listened to that, and that's why I listened to when Netanyahu went home from the meeting with Trump, he was much more circumspect than he was at the White House. You know, and look, this is going to be a really hard negotiation. But my approach to it, to pick up on Vann's point, is I don't want to win a debate. I want to see Israel thrive. And what Hamas wanted from the very beginning, Bill, was to get Israel stuck in the sands of Gaza forever. Because they knew in this world of social media that's how they could bleed them. That was the asymmetry they could use. And all I'm saying is, you know, the history of this conflict really is the history of war. Timeout, war, time out, War, time out, war, time out. And what the history is really about is who did what. During the timeout, Israel built a pretty amazing economy, society and country. And Palestinians didn't, for a million other reasons, get to the timeout. Don't get to stuck in their World. That's my whole philosophy.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

Little of the news from the Middle East.

Apropos of our discussion about Saudi Arabia and on the Middle East, I see in Afghanistan they took down the Internet and now they have put it back up. Apparently they took it down. I read in the paper there's been some dispute about why they did it, but apparently it was because it causes immorality. This would not be out of custom with the Taliban. Since we pulled out in 2021, here are some of the things the Taliban has done. Mannequins had to be beheaded. That's not a joke. Mannequins were too much for them. Mannequins. I've seen ones in department stores here that look beheaded.

[Tom Friedman]

And that's like a look.

[Bill Maher]

But here they did it. Education for girls. No, they couldn't go to the parks. Couldn't go to the parks. Meryl Streep famously said it, testifying, a squirrel has more rights than a girl in Afghanistan because a squirrel can go to the park. They shut down the beauty salons. They shut down. Women couldn't. Of course, they have to wear the full body covering, hearing other women's voices. So they had to. You not only can't talk now, you can't listen. So when I saw this story about the Afghan Internet going down, I said, well, we used to do a thing on this show called Revealing Google Searches. And now that they're back up there in Afghanistan, we're going to do a special Afghan edition of Google searches.

Would you like to, for example, fun.

Gift ideas for celebrating 911 is.

Where.

To watch tonight's beheading. Well, sure.

That's good.

What's the exchange rate between the US Dollar and my daughter? Can a chopped off hand grow back? Well, that's a good. Is Paul Rudd Jewish? Wow. Even.

Even in Afghanistan, they're doing asking.

Oh, stepsister stoning videos is one of them. What year is it? Couldn't the NFL find someone better than Bad Bunny?

Oh, even in Afghanistan, they're asking that.

Sydney Sweeney fully clothed. Are videos of women driving cars real or AI?

And of course.

How to cancel Disney.

That's everywhere in the world. All right, so let's get to the domestic realm.

Okay, this is if you went to the Department of Agriculture's website today, it said Trump. You gotta say, politically, no one can touch him due to the radical left Democratic shutdown. Okay, right away, right off the bat, we've had so many shutdowns, nobody ever did that. But that's how he plays the game. So if you're not following this. What's going on here is that during COVID they expanded the Obamacare credits so that people could get health care. I've never understood, by the way, the bizarre Republican obsession with taking health care away from people. I mean, first of all, I mean, Mitt Romney did it in Massachusetts, and it was a Republican idea. Like, people are getting free health care in the emergency room. Let's stop that. No freeloaders. We're Republicans. I just don't get it why they. How many times did they try to kill Obamacare? Then they did get rid of the mandate. It. It still survived, but this is the only leverage Democrats have. Democrats want to restore this and some of the Medicaid cuts. This is about health care. Democrats think this is the one issue we have, and this is the one leverage we have, which is to shut down the government, because, after all, they don't have any other power. And the question I'm asking is, who's going to win this? Can they? Because people will lose that. Kaiser predicts premium payments in 2016 will more than double if the ACA enhanced premium tax credits expire. Can the pain that people feel be connected to the Trump administration? This has been the hard thing for Democrats always. Can you connect the pain to the people providing it?

[Tom Friedman]

Look, I'm going to maybe piss off some of my Democratic friends, but I think you can always trust our party to do the wrong thing at the wrong time for the right reason. Okay, so here's the problem right now. If the Democrats don't do anything and they pass this clean resolution, which they don't want to do, if they did it, guess what would happen this month? Premiums would start going through the roof this month. By the time you get to the end of November, you would have Americans marching in the streets saying, I can't pay 150% more for my insurance premiums. What the heck is going on? Instead, we decided to not let that happen and shut the entire government down. So now people are going to be mad about the post office and 100 other things that Republicans can then blame on us. So I'm like, I get it. The base is upset. The base wants us to do something. Please do something, do anything. But the something probably shouldn't be throwing a bunch of people out of work in the federal government and crushing and crushing America's government's ability to function right before the pain was about to start. So that's my concern.

[Bill Maher]

You know what?

[Van Jones]

My reaction is related to your reflection about what they put on those websites they did at the Department of Education too. Like if you got an out of work message, it came up said, you know, basically the Democrats closed the government from. They forced people to put that on, or they just put that on people's phone messages or email messages. I'm actually looking more at independents because the question for me is not what's happening now, what's going to happen in the midterm? Because everything to me is about the midterm. Democrats have to get power and I think the key is going to be what independents do. They really gave, you know, Trump the last election. And I want to go back again to your introduction. I think independents are looking at all this stuff. Hague's speech, Trump's press conference with Netanyahu, these kinds of things. And they're sitting back and saying there is some crazy shit going on.

[Bill Maher]

Okay?

[Van Jones]

And I am not comfortable with this. This is just really getting out of control. My hope, my sense, cuz I'm kind of an independent myself, that that's where people are feeling and that's what will determine.

[Bill Maher]

Honestly, Tom, the midterm crazy shit has not moved them for 10 years. I remember being on this show the night of the debate when Trump was ranting about eating the dogs and I was like, that has got to be. That just was the most unhinged.

[Van Jones]

But we have had an election. I mean, take it for what it's worth, you know, Sioux City, Iowa, these seats that have flipped Spanberger and Virginia now hugely ahead. I just think a lot of independents are looking at this and saying this is getting. And not just this, but every. The whole authoritarian move getting really scary stuff. And I think that's what I'm hoping for.

[Bill Maher]

There's lots of things they don't like, to your point. I mean, I looked at the list of. Apparently I didn't see this, but I'm just going by what the list of government offices, departments that are affecting this the most. So I assume the Trump administration is the one who decides when they cut off money, when the government. Because we have no more money. October 1st was the fiscal New Year. I always throw a rager. And now there's no more money. But they have some. But they keep some people working well, like EPA. They close down like 89% of the EPA.

Surprise.

So they're just going to close down the shoot. They wanted to close down anyway. And the economy was. We were going to get very, very bad job numbers today. And of course, Donald Trump, AKA the luckiest man in the world now we Won't have those numbers at all. But if the economy goes in the shitter, he's going to say, well, the Democrats closed down the government. That's what did it. It was all going fine until then.

[Tom Friedman]

I like the fact that we have this leverage, and I just want to use it at the right time. Time, right. Give it to. I would have said. And the weird thing is, I talked to Chuck Schumer about this, like, three months ago, and he was kicking me in the butt because I had been tough on him for not allowing the government to shut down. And he convinced me that shutting the government down is stupid. Then I caught the TV and he says, we're now shutting the government down. So hold on a second, guys.

[Bill Maher]

He once convinced me to give him a million dollars and that went down the drain.

[Tom Friedman]

Exactly. So, look, my view is the Republicans were about to let a bunch of Americans, 15 million Americans, step on a rake, called their insurance premiums going through the roof. That's when you shut the government down. But you do it before, and now it's just going to be one more piece of garbage coming at the American people. I just think the timing's not that great. But look, maybe it'll work.

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[Bill Maher]

Pete Hegsett thing I was talking about in the monologue. And the kicker was somewhere in the middle. Or maybe it was at the end when Trump got up there and look, I don't know if this is a riff or this is a major policy change, because sometimes he just riffs and he just says something and you go, what? Training grounds for the enemy within was the phrase that stuck out in my mind. This is what he said. He said, president, I've got an idea said. He said we should use troops in cities, our dangerous cities. Troops. He's talking to the troops here. Yeah, use them as training grounds. In other words, in case we have to fight the homeless overseas.

[Van Jones]

We'Re going.

[Bill Maher]

To use the military now, again, sometimes he just says, shit. I remember when, after one of the school shootings, they were having a roundtable thing and he said to Mike Pence, who was the price race, he said, Mike, maybe we take away the guns first.

[Van Jones]

Yeah.

[Bill Maher]

Can you imagine if people really took him seriously, especially on the right? Take away the guns and then it was just forgotten the next day. Now maybe this will be forgotten the next day.

[Tom Friedman]

But you know what kills me about.

[Van Jones]

That whole story, though? That whole event, Bill, if I could say, is I just came from Kiev. I was there a couple weeks ago. You are watching there the greatest freedom fight on the planet.

[Bill Maher]

Okay?

[Van Jones]

Ukrainians struggling, inventing drones themselves. They're scraping like anything to beat the Russians back. And Hyksos is talking about lethality and all this fighting spirit. Meanwhile, they're not giving a dime a dime in their new budget for Ukraine. Okay, so what is all this lethality for? Number two, while I was over there.

[Bill Maher]

I thought we were. I thought we were giving the money to the other European countries to get weapons to the Ukrainians.

[Van Jones]

No, no, the other Europeans are giving their own money to buy weapons from us to give to the Ukrainians.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, so it's a little different.

[Van Jones]

Number one, we zeroed them out. Number two, while I was over there, Russia sent 20 drones into Poland. What was Rubio's, our Secretary of State's response? Well, we're still studying. It could have been an accident. 20 drones over six hours was an accident. You know, then they sent MiGs over Estonia. So these guys are doing this whole lethality thing and we're fighting spirit and do more push ups and get rid of your beard, okay? And meanwhile, Putin every day is fighting a hybrid war, and we're leaving on the field the greatest freedom fight on the planet right now.

[Tom Friedman]

I agree 100% also. I agree 100%. But, you know, also, what a small, insecure man Heck said this to be sitting up there claiming about how, you know, basically girls aren't good enough and all this sort of stuff. Nobody on planet Earth, I mean, it's just weird. Like, nobody on planet Earth is sitting here saying, we used to be afraid of the United States military. Now we're not, because there are women in there. Literally, we are the most feared military in the world. It's why the world is as stable as it is and nobody's complaining about it. Except this one dude who decides that he just can't stand the fact that there are women who have arms. As a father of a daughter, I think every girl dad should be offended by what he said. The women who are in our armed forces can kick his ass any day of the week.

[Bill Maher]

And he needs to back up.

[Tom Friedman]

When.

[Van Jones]

I'm depressed to pick up on Van's point. When I'm depressed, what I really enjoy doing is traveling with the US Military.

[Tom Friedman]

That's right.

[Van Jones]

Because what you see is our real strength. It's our ability to make out of many one. Okay. That's actually our real strength. And when you see them operate in the Middle east, where people can't make out of many one, that's when you understand the real secret of our sauce.

[Bill Maher]

So, headline in your paper today, top story. Most voters say us can't repair severe divisions. They went into the fact that five years ago, even during the pandemic and during the George Floyd protests, even then, people thought, well, we are going to get through this. And now they seem to be on the page of it's not going to happen.

[Van Jones]

You know, Bill, what do we do?

[Bill Maher]

You see the story.

[Tom Friedman]

Yeah.

[Van Jones]

I think what's new about this moment? One of my teachers and friends, Doug Seisman, likes to say this. We aren't. We aren't divided. We are being divided by companies for profit.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[Van Jones]

And we have our divisions. We always have, always have. But it is now a. What is new in my life is it is now a giant industry to make people stupid and angry. And I'm not sure what happened.

[Bill Maher]

Talking about algorithms.

[Van Jones]

Right, Exactly. And Facebook and all the things that these people do. And we'd be. You know, the way I look at the world right now, we're going through a lot of social change. We're going through a lot of technological change. The pot would be boiling, but then along came Mark Zuckerberg, and he turned the heat up on the pot. And then along came Trump, and he took the lid off the pot, and he made it permissible, popular, and profitable to say and do things to and about each other we never did before. And all three of those things need to be addressed.

[Bill Maher]

Can we.

[Tom Friedman]

The crazy thing for me is when you talk to people, when you ask people, just put the phone down for a second and you actually talk to people. Actual people are not as divided. But the thing is, at some point, you, on your phone, you ordered a yoga mat or something, your algorithm figured out you're a liberal. Then your neighbor looked up a truck, you're a conservative. And from that day forward, you got different information every day, and nobody sent a notice. And so now you literally think your neighbor is insane, because how could they possibly think this stuff? But if you put your phone next to their phone, you're in different algorithmic universes, and that is brand new and very dangerous.

[Bill Maher]

All right, thank you.

Gotta end it there. Great. Work, guys. It's time for new rules. Everybody. Thank you. All right. Okay.

New rule. Children's animators must tell me why they always draw the sun with sunglasses on. Sunglasses are supposed to protect your eyes from the sun. Why would the sun be wearing them? It's like when they do cartoon pigs and they're wearing a barbecue apron. Jesus, why don't you just put a happy baby on a box of condoms? New rule. Using a skincare brand called Activist doesn't actually make you an activist. You know what Malcolm X, Cesar Chavez, and Lec Walesa all had in common? None of them sold an active hydration serum. This stuff may be great for those fine lines and wrinkles, but I just don't see how it leads to restorative justice for marginalized communities. That said, I never go anywhere without my tube of this sunscreen. Kills fascists. New rules. Someone asked to explain how I can be a red blooded freedom love American male and still want to be taken over by this Chinese all female brigade. Seriously, ladies, strip me naked, put me in a tiger cage, and let's violate the Geneva Conventions. And don't hate me if I say I'd like you to love me for a long time. New rule. Now that there's an AI powered necklace you can buy called Friend that listens to everything you say and then gives you positive feedback, I'd just like to say to the poor lonely people who buy this, if you think you have no real friends now, wait till everyone sees you talking to your necklace. New World directors have to find a better way to show that their anti hero doesn't give a fuck than putting him outside in a bathrobe in the movie. One battle after another, Leonardo DiCaprio spends the whole movie outside in a bathrobe. Just like the dude in the Big Lebowski and Tony Soprano and. And Hawkeye in MASH and Ferris Bueller and Brad Pitt in Fight Club. Man, if wearing a bathrobe all day made you this cool, wouldn't Joe Biden still be president? And finally, new rule. Of all the ways America continues to divide itself, nowhere is it more pronounced than in gender. And until the Democrats come to grips with that, they won't have much success winning elections. Let's just put it out there. Women are the Democrats base, and men who get hit in the head for a living are trumps. They're the Bro Party. The party of car shows on the White House lawn and breaking shit and seeing what happened and busting balls and shooting stuff like beer and laws. It's been that way for a long time. The Mommy Party and the Daddy Party, the party of pussy hats and the party of Truck Nuts.

But.

But that divide is on steroids now and getting worse. In the 24 election, young men preferred Trump by 2 points and young women Kamala by 24. The only way Trump can appeal to women 18 to 39 is making him one of his lawyers. Men and women can barely date because they can't stomach each other's politics. That's why everyone is gay now. We're just, we're just done with each other. If you don't believe me, ask yourself, what podcasts do I listen to? Trump bros have 50,000 of them about politics and protein powder. While in the woman's sphere, the podcasts are all about balancing career and motherhood until eventually true crime happens and someone gets murdered. They like murder. We like killing people. Here's a mind blowing stat about the divide. 73% of boomer men disagreed with the statement mental health challenges are an important part of my identity. 72% of Gen Z women said the opposite. They agreed Mental health challenges are an important part of my identity. Okay, let's say it all women are better than men. They're smarter and kinder and make way better firefighters. But I'm never moving past it isn't really the campaign slogan we're looking for. I'm sorry Democratic women, but this is your party. You have a special responsibility to look tough. Senator Alyssa Slotkin seems to get that, and not just because of her service in Iraq and with the CIA, but because she says things like Democrats need to fucking retake the flag. Democrats have to stop being weak and woke, she says. Good message, because no one's holding women back anymore. In many ways, they're leaving men in the dust. Women are much less likely to be unemployed now, less likely to blow a month's pay on draftkings, and much more likely to complete college. The only writing young men do these days is engraving their bullets booing into applause.

Very rare. But.

America now has 14 million women owned businesses which generate 2.7 trillion in revenue. Yeah, women launched 49% of all new businesses in 2024, and the number of black women owned businesses outpaced the growth rates of every other demographic in the I'm spitting facts in the Barbie movie when she storms into the Mattel boardroom. It's 12 people, all men. But Mattel is a real company, and in 2023, their boardroom was actually six men and five women, perpetuating victimhood especially when it's false is not a great advertisement for leadership. Kamala Harris new memoir of the 24 election is called 107 days, but it should have been called Everyone sucks but me. 107 days is a victim's title because get it, she only had 107 days to win. Yeah, and a half and a billion and a half dollars and a built.

In army of about 75 million people.

Who'D vote for any human adjacent life form that wasn't Trump. But in 107 days nothing is ever Kamala's fault. Biden lets her down by not stepping down sooner. Pouty face emoji Gavin News Newsom he was asked for his endorsement but texted hiking we'll call back. But then never did. And then he didn't even ask her to prom. America America itself lets Kamala down by not being ready for the running mate she really wanted, Pete Buttigieg. So she stuck with the Home Depot paint salesman and the rest is herstory. Poor Kamala. We made her the star of a rom com and didn't even give her a gay best friend. Kamala writes that on election night, when it was clear she lost, an aide peeled the words Madam President off the cupcakes before handing them out. Oh geez, that's like a scene from Bridget Jones Runs for President, for Christ's sake. Look, ladies, I know this isn't fair, but we're all always running against the worst cliche of who people think we are. Women Democrats can't look oversensitive or preachy or unable to laugh at themselves. Or they also can't look silly like Gretchen Whitmer did trying to hide in the Oval Office. They have to look brave and strong. It wasn't a good look for the Woman party that all the guys were speaking out for Jimmy Kimmel when Trump went after him. Except on the Woman show, where for five days the outspoken hosts were suddenly as quiet as a geisha. Then on the fifth day, they rose and said, no one silences us. No one had to. You silenced yourself, whoopi Goldberg continued. Did you all really think we weren't going to talk about Jimmy Kimmel? No, I thought you would, but then you didn't. Five days Talk about needing extra time to get ready.

And if you can't take a breath and laugh at that, you're making my point for me. All right, thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. We're off next week, back on the 17th. I want to thank Van Jones, Tom Friedman and Louis CK Club random drops every Monday on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast now go to overtime on YouTube. Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.

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