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A
This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block. Or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it, ready to make anything online make sense.
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B
There's no place like Chrome.
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A
Check responses set up required compatibility and availability. Various 18/ this episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home with agents who close twice as many deals. When you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started@redfin.com own the dream. Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Ma.
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B
Hi.
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A
Hello, mike. Thank you. Thank you very much. Wow. Oh, I appreciate it. What I do. Thank you. Thank you very much. Wow. This is, this is a. This is going to be a great show. That is a pumped up crowd. We love that. These are scaring the shit out of me. I know why you're happy. We have an Iran deal. Finally, a deal with Iran and I, I love this deal. We got everything we wanted. Except for everything we asked for. Other than that, It's actually a very simple deal. They're going to stop enriching uranium and Trump is going to stop enriching his family. No, we didn't even get that. We didn't get that. We didn't get anything. I just hope we play Iran in the World cup so we can beat them at something because this, first of all, it's not a deal. It's a memorandum of understanding. It's about as legally binding as the sign in the break room that says, please clean microwave. That's. It's nothing. I mean, you know, we started with unconditional surrender, Operation Epic Fury, and now it's memorandum of understanding. Last thing I got hosed, this bag was my dog. I mean so much. Where's the big deal maker? What happened to the art of the deal? This is his big clothes. I got news for you, the emperor has no clothes. I tell you, Donald Trump, when he gets tired of a relationship, he's just out. I think he just said to the Supreme Leader, you know, I think we should take a break. I just want to bomb other countries. Yeah, and other countries. They're looking at this. They're seeing all that Iran got out of this. They're getting $300 billion plus sanctions lifted, assets unfrozen. They're all like, bomb us. Hey, bomb us.
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B
Y.
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A
Remember when Obama unfroze money? It was like the worst thing that ever happened in the history of the world. And now $300 billion, which apparently is gonna come from our Gulf allies. Where have I seen this strategy before? Oh, yeah. I think I would call it the Stormy Daniels strategy. It's the. A third party's gonna send you money, and then we're gonna pretend this never happened. I mean. I mean, Iran got things in this deal it never had before. The straight to Hormuz is a moneymaker now. You seen that? First they had that whole thing about. They started tolls. They never had tolls there. We said you cannot have tolls. And they agreed. No tolls. Fees.
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B
Fees.
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A
Oh, you know what, Iran? You think you can scare us with this? We invented. Okay, wait till you can't get through the straight or hormones unless you get your ticket at Ticketmaster. Okay, then talk less about bullshit fees and. But I. I know what you're saying, Bill. Is there any good news? Yes, it's Father's Day Sunday. I think that's. Good news for me. I'm not one, so that's. No, it's love. It's a wonderful thing. Father's Day and fathers, and everybody gets in the mood. I see that. Kristi Noem's kids call her Call their father Pop, because that's what happens when his balloon tits hit something sharp. Oh, I kid, but no, here's some good news. You want good news? Bobby Kennedy is getting rid of the blue M and Ms. All right. It's something. Yeah. The blue dye in the M and Ms. Is very bad for you. And they're going to get rid of the blue dye out of the M and Ms. And pour it directly into the Lincoln Memorial reflecting. Have you seen what's going on with that? With the reflecting pool? Drain the swamp. Now there's one in the middle of town. I mean, so if you haven't been following this, Trump thought that the pool was looking a little tired. You know, used to be a 10, and it was like a six, but. Okay, so you know what? I'm not against spiffying up the Capitol, but is there anything they try to do that they don't fuck up? I mean, Trump wanted it bluer, and now it's green with Algae. And they can't figure out how to get the algae under control, but they did get it to sign a memorandum of understanding. Okay, we got a great show. We have Representative Ro Khanna and Jonathan Martin are here. But first up, he is the creator, writer, and director of Euphoria, one of my favorite shows and yours. Streaming now on hbo. Sam Levinson. Oh, Ben, how are you?
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B
Thank you for having me.
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A
Oh, what an honor. Looking forward to this for a while. It's great to be able to talk to you for more than two minutes at a party. And, you know, usually I don't do stuff with an HBO show. Cause, you know, you get accused of pimping for your own stuff for your own network. But I feel like your show deserves pimping. It's because it just touches on so many real issues that are in this country of ours, in this world. But I got it. Before I get to it, I have to say, when I told people you were coming on this week, everyone said, you got to ask him. Is there going to be a season four of Euphoria?
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C
Nope, this is it. I think in terms of what we set out to do, and over the course of three seasons, you know, we. We told the story we wanted to. We gave birth to a generation of actors that are incredible craftspeople, crew members, and feels like the natural conclusion.
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A
Yeah, I agree. Three is a good number.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Two was good for the Godfather. Is part of it. Because it's tough to film in la. Because I've been reading how difficult it is that people will go halfway around the world to film something that is supposed to be in LA rather than actually do it in la.
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C
I mean, it definitely has its complications. I think the price. The price. Season one has almost doubled between season one and season three. And the amount of red tape, the kind of bureaucracy, the permitting, it's all very difficult. So part of.
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A
Part of the equation of why you. Yeah. Okay.
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C
But that's not the reason we're not doing a season. Yeah.
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A
But let's talk about the ending.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Because, you know, it's funny. Everybody in the world has an idea for a movie. You know what? They don't have an ending. The ending is the whole thing.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Because an ending has to be somehow, paradoxically, a surprise and also inevitable. And I feel like you accomplished that with this. Because it's a show about addiction. And so, spoiler alert, you had to kill the main character.
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C
Yeah. I mean, look, it's doing drugs today is not like it was when I was a kid. When you were a kid. It's a whole different beast, I think, you know, 20, 23, you had over 100,000 people die of fentanyl overdoses, and the number is still enormous. I think now it's maybe 60,000, 70,000. So you're talking about one decision, one pill that can just wipe you out. And I think it felt like the responsible thing to do. If you're experimenting with drugs today, the likelihood that it'll kill you is extremely high. And I wanted. And I know how much the audience loves this character of Roux. And I thought, if I can put the audience in the shoes of family members who have lost their children, their parents, their brothers, sisters, then it was the right thing to do. And if it can, you know, give people a pause before they take a pill, then, yeah, she died.
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A
But you didn't.
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C
Yes.
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A
Right. And you spent most of your high school years in rehab.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Is that not right?
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C
Yeah. From 11 to 19.
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A
11.
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C
Yeah.
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A
11.
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C
11.
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A
Holy fuck. Yeah. That just shows the difference in our generations. Well, you know.
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C
Yeah, I mean, look, I had a couple of different issues at the time. You know, I struggled with obsessive compulsive disorder, all this stuff. And I got put on a lot of medications when I was younger, and then I started sort of experimenting with
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A
them and medications, like pharmaceutical stuff.
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C
Pharmaceuticals.
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D
Yeah.
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A
Don't you think that's a lot of the problem is that, yes, kids are always going to be confused and have problems, and some of it does, I'm sure, require that kind of intervention. But when you start messing with the kid's mind, I mean, look, I'm no one to talk about drugs. I've done a lot of drugs in my life, but I didn't start until I was 19. I didn't know what it was like to bend reality. So I felt that if you start it when you're at 11 or even before, if they were giving you medications, of course they talk about, what's the gateway drug? Is it pot, is it beer? It's whatever the first thing you ever do is. It goes, oh, there's reality and then there's this. This is kind of cool to live over here. Isn't that what happened to you?
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C
I mean, by and large, yeah. I mean, my gateway drug wasn't weed. It was. It was pills. It was pharmaceuticals that the adults gave you. Yes.
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A
Okay.
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C
Yeah. No, I mean, look, it's. Look, I think there's obviously certain people who need medication for certain reasons, but it is. There's no doubt that it is over Prescribed and is, you know, messing with people's brain chemistry at a very young age.
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A
Well, I'm glad you lived through it because I love the show. I know it's the. I was surprised to learn this. The network with the Sopranos and so many big shows, it's the second most watched show HBO has ever had. After this.
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C
Yeah, no.
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A
Oh, it's not that funny. All right. After Game of Thrones. But I want to get to the other issue, which I think is almost as big an issue as the addiction, one that I know you got a lot of heat for it. Like, okay, so you had the first two seasons, and then we had the pandemic. So there was a lot of gap between when they were in high school, which started out as a high school show.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And then it became this other thing. And. Okay, so now they're out of high school by three or four years, and you put them in. I mean, one works at a strip club, one is on Only fans.
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C
Yeah.
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A
One is kind of a sugar baby with a sugar daddy. I thought this was the exact right choice for the America ic. Yeah, not personally, but what I see, I did an editorial there one week called the Masturbation Economy. Yeah, a lot of this economy is. It just looks like a lot of young women who don't go to college, they wind up in some form of the masturbation economy, making older men who have money masturbate somehow. That's what Only Fans is. That's what strip clubs. That's what all of this is. And I feel like that was the right place to put these girls who didn't go to college.
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C
Well, it's also, look, if you look at Only Fans, it is making as much money as Hollywood. I mean, essentially, it's on par. It's not a niche business. It is a massive enterprise. And so if you're young and you're going, you know, look, I don't want to go work, you know, nine to five at this place or that thing. Well, maybe I can just start taking photos of myself. And, you know, the question is, what are the long term consequences of that? What happens when, you know, as a young person, you're on Instagram and these things and you're told that you're the product, you're the brand, and now you're out, you're 18 years old and you're going, well, how do I make money? And I just thought chasing that desire, that kind of fast cash, was an interesting thing to kind of. And also at the same time, you know, we caught a lot of criticism for it. But, you know, there's a part of me that wonders if the show kind of affirmed this life and how empowering it was, whether we would get the same criticism. You know, we take a fairly critical look at it. It hollows out the individual. It' syou know, you're constantly just depending on the likes and external validation.
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A
I thought the moral center of the thing was always the Maddie character. I know she wasn't the one that got the most heat from the press.
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C
Yeah.
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A
I always thought both the actress and the character were my favorites.
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C
She's wonderful.
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A
Yeah. And she's the one who says, I forget what the scene was. But she says, I guess to the other one, I'm not a hooker.
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B
Right.
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A
Because I'm not a hooker. And I feel like that said it all.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Like, she kind of. She was participating in it to a degree.
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C
She was managing the girls, which is a whole new industry. It's sort of light pimping,
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A
but it is astounding how much of this economy and how many people are in. How many young women are involved in this. I mean, if you. You can scroll through pornhub, I hear, Like, endlessly, and you will never see the same girl twice. It looks like every girl who didn't go to college is doing this for a living. I mean, that's why I thought it was an important point to make, whether they criticize you or not. And also the sort of grooming of social media.
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C
Yeah. You think?
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A
I mean, that's something I didn't have as a kid. I don't know if you did. You're a little bit.
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C
No, I didn't have social media as a kid, but it's. I mean, if you're constantly taking photos of yourself and selling yourself online, it's the natural evolution of it.
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A
It is the natural evolution of it. That's right. So, okay, I'll let you go, but I want to know what you think about these new movies that were out that did so well. Obsession and backrooms that were made. I mean, this is something you can comment on probably better than anybody. You're an auteur who just does the whole thing yourself. And now we have people who just went right from TikTok to $100 million opening weekends. What do you see as the future for this industry? You're optimistic about it. Is that a good thing?
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C
I'm extremely optimistic about it. I think. Look, we've gone through this kind of strange period in Hollywood where I always think about it this way in the country. We've gone through maybe the most politically and socially tumultuous time in recent memory for the last 10 years. Yet the artistic response to it has been rather timid. And I think that that's starting to break away. And whatever the future holds, I think that a lot of new voices are going to come in who don't care about the old rules, who just want to make something great, something entertaining. The fact that, you know, this kid made a movie, $750,000 and it's made, I think over 200 million, is incredible. And I think we're going to start to see more of that. I'm very bullish on the future of storytelling and Hollywood. I don't know why a lot of people aren't.
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A
So we're going to have like 70s movies again.
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C
Oh, that's the dream.
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A
Or like movies like your great father made.
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C
Yes.
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A
You sound just like him, by the way. Tell him I said hello.
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C
I will.
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A
Great to see you. Thank you for the great work. All right, Sam Robinson, everybody. Let's meet our panel. Hey. Hi, guys. All right. He is the senior political columnist for Politico.
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B
Wow.
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A
And host of the podcast on the Road with Jonathan Martin. Jonathan Martin, welcome aboard.
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B
Let's go.
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A
And you know this guy? A Democratic congressman representing California, Silicon Valley, ranking member of the House China Committee, former co chair of Bernie Sanders 2020 campaign, Ro Khanna. All right, so you are in the news right now, if you don't realize it, because you represent Silicon Valley. And I was looking, I mean, this week was the G7 meeting. If you're not familiar, that's when the big. The big economies who aren't China, can we put it that way? Get together, Right? The seven biggest economies in the world. Okay? And you know who else was there? Sam Altman from OpenAI, Dario Amodei from Anthropic, the dude from Google DeepMind, Alex Wong from Meta. In other words, the AI guys are now sitting at the table at the G7. Ro, are you proud of this or alarmed?
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B
Alarmed. Let me say this. I know these folks.
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A
You represent them.
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B
I represent them. As we're approaching the.
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D
Some of your best friends.
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B
Not all my best friends. Some of them don't like me. They spent a lot of money trying to defeat me. But the point is this. As we approach the 250th year anniversary of this country, let me just say this. We didn't fight a revolution to be ruled by tech billionaires. And right now, right now, these two folks are acting like they're entitled to rule. One of the things, one of the reasons they don't like me is I've called for a billionaire or trillionaire tax. Think about this. For one tax on Elon Musk. 5% tax on Elon Musk. You could pay for childcare, $10 a day for every American. You could pay for free public college for every American. They don't want to pay a few percent tax.
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A
Well, I mean, there's very few people. In fact, there's nobody like that. He's five times more rich than the next richest guy in the whole world.
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C
Yeah.
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D
That's incredible.
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A
So we're talking about maybe just an Elon tax.
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B
I mean, even smart, you know? Okay, what do you think you ever traveled the country, I mean, is there any part in America you've gone all over Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, where if you said you want to tax these billionaires or a trillionaire a few percent, they'd say, no, no, no, don't do that. No.
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D
It's an obvious populist issue. I think it's sort of the horseshoe theory. Far right and far left are coming together in their deep dissatisfaction with the tech oligarchs. And it does remind, I think, a lot of people of the 19th century and the rail barons because they had so much power, not just culturally, but economically and politically, too. Bill, I think about when Trump was inaugurated a second time and had to move it inside because of the cold in D.C. who was behind him? It wasn't the CEOs of Caterpillar. Exxon Mobil. Who was it? It was the top execs at the information economy companies. Right. That to me was symbolically so important because it told me a couple of things. Trump knows where the power is today. And also those folks know that access to power themselves is everything to take their own rules going forward.
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A
Okay, well, information is a little different than I. I mean, obviously they cross over, but this is a whole different catalyst of fish here. I mean, this week we had a situation where the administration apparently is trying to get. Is it a modi's company not to release? Okay. It's called Fable 5 or Mythos 5. These are people who make Claude and they say it's just not safe that it can penetrate almost all of the government's classified systems. I mean, is it too late already? Don't these handful of on the spectrum incels. Excuse me.
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C
Don't.
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B
Hold on.
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D
Well, Elon is not an incel.
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A
What?
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D
I said, Elon is not an incel. There's evidence about that.
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A
Yeah.
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D
That's true.
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A
Okay, but I mean, how are we going to get the cat back in the bag? I mean, these people already have this kind of money and I assume this kind of power. I assume if they're inviting them to the G7, they're already afraid of them, already calling the shots.
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D
Yeah, I think it's going to be. Maybe the central issue of the 2028 campaign is because the impact not just on the economy, but also on kids and what kids are seeing, and also the basic fact of what's real and what's not. You know, there's an old quote that everybody's entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. Pat Moynihan said that. Well, now we're entering this world where we are sort of living in our own version of reality. And every day that goes by, the deep fakes are getting better and better. And it's not just going to be people who are elderly who can't figure out what's real and what's not. It's going to be us trying to figure out, is that video real? Did that guy just say that? Is that commercial actually legit? And it's getting harder and harder every day.
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B
You know, what if we want to regulate them? Maybe we start by not having three 80 year old presidents in a row. We need someone who actually understands technology.
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A
Do you have any ideas?
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B
You know, you, you had Mark Zuckerberg.
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A
Well, that's ageist, first of all.
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B
Well, fine, it is.
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A
But it's interesting the way the Democrats, who are also always against the prejudice. That's the one.
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B
Prejudice that's okay, you're fine with.
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A
I think it's a case by case basis. When you're 80. I've certainly known people who are 80, which I'll be in 10 years. And I don't intend to be like Joe Biden.
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B
Are you gonna announce?
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A
No, but. No, you first.
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D
What's fascinating is this issue squeezes both parties because Trump has been sort of laissez faire about this and Vance knows that. And Vance is going to have to take a much more populist hard line because he knows the votes in his party are much more skeptical of AI than Trump has been.
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B
At the same time, his whole strategy is, let me just contradict everything the President's doing. War in Iran. Oh, I was against it. Releasing Epstein post.
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D
Democrats obviously are the party, the party of California. This is their economic base. So both parties are going to have to pick a side here. It's not going to be easy.
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A
I'm talking about guardrails. This is really what we're talking about. Both sides are talking now about at least talking, but it's moving so quickly. And are you, who represents them going to be able to have the strength to actually implement those guardrails? Is anybody?
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B
Yes, because I've stood up to them. I stood up to them on the billionaire attacks where they went against me. I've stood up to them and said, why don't we have an AI regulatory agency? Look, if you think this is this, why don't we? Well, because people are putting money in. And Trump said, I'm an accelerationist. China is going to eat our lunch. Let them do whatever they want.
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A
And how are you going to defeat that?
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B
We're going to defeat it by telling the American people you have a vote and we should be voting for sensible guardrails and regulations.
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A
There are three things we should be doing.
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B
First of all, you know, you hire someone, you hire someone on your staff, you got to pay their payroll tax and you've got to pay their health insurance, but you want to automate them with a robot. No tax. We actually incentivize the elimination of jobs. Change the tax code, actually tax agent, take AI Then you want to make sure that we actually have a regulatory agency like we have for nuclear energy or electricity. We need people who understand technology, who have the guts to stand up to them and who are going to be on the side of the workers, not the tech billionaire.
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A
Only 16% of Americans now think I will positively impact society. Which it definitely will. It definitely will. It'll probably make 80 year olds sharper.
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D
The numbers don't lie. But Ro, you guys can barely keep the lights on in Congress and fund the government. How are you going to do a sweeping new regulatory agenda to regulate this massive industry when it's hard enough to keep the government open in Congress? And secondly, if you look at other countries around the world, Bill, places like Australia, the UK are banning social media for 18 under year old kids. So I just don't see that level of activism and that political possibility happening here because the Congress is so gridlocked even when one party is in power like it is now.
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B
Well, we need leadership. I mean, Donald Trump ran and he said give these tech billionaires all that they want. And yet Elon Musk pour $300 million into getting him to win. But if you had leadership, that said, you know, we have a Nuclear Energy Regulatory Commission, we have it for electricity, let's do it for AI. You don't need Congress doing All the details. You need an independent agency doing that. And then what about a jobs program? All these young people, they can't get a job. Why not have a Work for America where you hire young people into a job to rebuild communities or rebuild the federal government? What we lack in this country is leadership. Either people don't know AI or they're afraid to stand up to these billionaires.
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A
And now we're entering, I think, an era of lame duckness, really. I think we can talk about the Iran war, although I doubt there's going to be a lot of debate about it, because even those of us who thought it might be a good idea to try to defang Iran, as we've been saying for so many years, they just fucked it up so badly.
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D
Trump never was going to have the attention span to get that done. Right. It was going to take a period of months. Protracted war damage to the economy, at some point having to put troops on the ground. He was never willing to do that.
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A
No. There could have been an uprising. They just, they just missed the timing, I think. I just think they should have done it while the people were in the streets.
- [28:18]
D
January, February.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
Instead of waiting till they all got shot and then doing it anyway. It's fucked up. Now, here's the bright side of it, I think.
- [28:25]
B
Yeah.
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A
I don't think the Republicans are scared of Trump anymore. For the first time in, like, almost 10 years. I don't think they are. I mean, when you read. I'll tell you, when you read the quotes from the Republicans, they sound like Democrats. Ted Cruz, he said, dollars to theocratic lunatics. John Kennedy, unless you were homeschooled by a day drinker, he says no one's confident that Iran is going to do anything. Bill Cassidy said Reagan is rolling over in his grave. I don't remember them ever doing this.
- [28:57]
B
Because it took Trump ending a war to get Ted Cruz to start criticizing him. No. Go do more and more.
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A
I mean, I'm glad he's losing a war.
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B
Losing the war, yes. But, you know, and how about even you agree, Bill, we can't be giving him $300 billion. He says it's not taxpayer money, it's money from the coast. What happened from the Gulf, Gulf countries. Why not put that money in Pennsylvania and Ohio? What happened to America first? We're giving 300 million.
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A
Well, that's what, that's what I'm saying. That's why he's lost. I mean, he's, he's Two years coming up on two years from out of office, they're going to lose the midterms and he's not that popular with his own party. So what is that two years going to look like? I mean, certainly it's got to be an opportunistic moment for the Democrats.
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D
So I think there's one of two approaches.
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A
How are they going to blow it?
- [29:44]
D
Well, the more likely, the more likely approach is, is that this is going to be a protracted, ugly subpoena and investigation filled and court battles because Trump and his family are not going to want to testify and his allies aren't going to want to either. And Democrats are going to be out for blood and the pressure on the liberal base to impeach Trump will be immense. That's the most likely scenario, I think, especially if Trump tries to fuck around with the election this fall. That's only going to further radicalize Democrats. The other scenario that's possible, I think unlikely Bill, is this. Trump is desperate for a domestic victory. He needs a legacy going forward beyond cleaning out the reflecting pool, which isn't going so well now.
- [30:24]
C
Right.
- [30:25]
D
And so Trump is Nixon goes to China and tries to do a big immigration bill with a Democratic majority in Congress because Democrats like Roe are savvy enough to know you're probably only going to fix immigration in this country with a Republican president just because the politics of it are so hard. I think that's unlikely. But that'd be a fascinating effort because Trump would sell out Stephen Miller and his party so fast to get a big legacy walking away. Because right now, what is his second term legacy, at least domestically? There ain't much there.
- [30:53]
B
I'd be open if he's, if he wants to have a pathway to citizenship for whole hardworking immigrants are paying taxes, there'd be people who are open to that, secure borders and do that.
- [31:01]
A
But what are you guys talking about? But, but here's the farthest thing from his radar. He closed the border. He thinks he won this. This is over for him.
- [31:11]
B
I'll tell you what will happen. First of all, the crack in the Trump coalition was when Thomas Massie and I passed the Epstein files. They have J.D. vance in the Situation Room covering it up. We're going to get those files released and we're going to make sure we get justice for survivors. Then we're going to start passing bills raising the minimum wage, childcare for all Americans, paid family leave, figuring out how we get People homes by 35 and let them either be sign it.
- [31:37]
D
He lost the immigration issue when he enacted Stephen Miller's policies, had ICE agents going to get housekeepers and gardeners and throwing them in jail and then had two Americans killed in cold blood in Minneapolis. He lost the best issue he had. He doesn't have any issues now domestically. So he's going to need a legacy. I think it's unlikely, Bill. I'm just saying, if there was one issue where the two parties could get something done in the final two years,
- [31:59]
A
I think it's that, you know who gets the crow about Iran? Obama.
- [32:03]
B
He does.
- [32:04]
A
And even Biden with the way they got on him, the way he got out of Afghanistan. At least he got out of Afghanistan. But especially, I mean, I was always trying to defend that. When I talked to Trump, I was defending that he. And look, there were reasons why it may not have been the right thing because they probably were cheating the whole time. But it turned out Obama was right. There really is no other better way to do this. You know, it's always the best of the worst possible option.
- [32:30]
D
Well, and now we know that they have the leverage which is close and down the straits and they can turn that on and off anytime they want. So any future American president threatens Iran, goes back into Iran, well, guess what, we'll close the straits down. We'll GM you on gas prices back home politically and we'll wait you out. There's no midterms in Iran.
- [32:49]
B
Right. It's not just about scoring a political point. I mean, like Jonathan, I was at the Obama center and Obama speech and I think here's the lesson for Americans, that sometimes tough diplomacy is better than chest thumping, brute force. Obama got the enriched uranium out, 97% of it. Trump's agreement, it's simply dilution. We don't even get it out. Obama got a United Nations Security Council resolution that actually had enforced inspectors. Now we don't have enforced inspectors. We don't know they've gotten a weaker deal. You agree it's a weaker deal?
- [33:24]
A
It is. Oh, absolutely.
- [33:25]
C
Yeah.
- [33:25]
A
No, it's a terrible deal.
- [33:27]
D
I mean, either deal, the Iranians are going to fudge the nukes. Right. And that's just. We kind of know that.
- [33:31]
A
I think whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva helps you make that thing a thing. Canva is a simple online tool thing. It's a way to design with our magic AI tool things you can social media your thing, generate images or videos of your thing, make decks for presentations to show your thing, whatever needs to be done for your thing. Canva can make it an even better and bigger thing. Canva, the Thing. Thing that makes anything a thing. Study and play come together on a Windows 11 PC. And for a limited time, college students get the best of both worlds. Get the unreal college deal. Everything you need to study and play with select Windows 11 PCs. Eligible students get a year of Microsoft 365 Premium and a year of Xbox game Pass ultimate with a custom color Xbox wireless controller. Learn more@windows windows.com studentoffer law supplies last ends June 30th terms at aka Ms. CollegePC. You have one new message translating Disney and Pixar's Hoppers is now available on Disney. You could say that again. Critics are calling it Pixar's funniest movie ever. And a wildly entertaining ride. Blizzard potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot.
- [34:51]
B
Now we party.
- [34:53]
A
This is incredible. Wow.
- [34:56]
D
I am clearing the rest of the day.
- [34:57]
A
Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney. Rated pg. Okay, so another issue down in Texas. There's a race going on. I'm sure you're watching it closely. Everybody in politics is. We had him on the show, James Talarico. He's a charismatic new Democrat, and he. That could be the next bader o' Rourke in Texas. Or he could be the guy who finally flips Texas. Anyway, you know, you mentioned deep fakes. That's not the only way you can cheat with advertising because he's running against this guy Ken Paxton down there. And I want to show you the Ken Paxton ad that Ken has been running against James Talarico. Take a look. This is Texas.
- [35:40]
D
This is not our southern border. Should be like our front. There should be a giant welcome mat out front.
- [35:47]
A
Okay. That's what he ran, and that is what James Tallarigo said. It's just not all he said. He cut off the part where he went, there should be a giant welcome mat out front and a lock on the door. He cut that part off.
- [36:01]
D
That small thing.
- [36:02]
B
Yeah.
- [36:03]
A
That's how you run a dirty campaign. And that's not the only one. Would you like to see some other example? I thought you would, because there's just. There are other times where he just showed part of what Talariko said and then didn't show the whole thing. So I'm gonna show you both. I'm gonna show you what he showed and then what the whole comment was. Ready? Okay. For example, he has Talarico saying, I think a lot about children having good. He showed him saying, I want Texas grandmothers to know I'm hard at work protecting Social Security. Christmas makes Me want to throw up some tinsel and lights. This guy is such a sneaky guy. Every time I visit our classrooms, I come to the conclusion that we can do better. I wake up every day to a big black cock crowing outside my window. Like most rural Texans, God blows a strong wind of faith that guides my life. And white people need to get the hell out of the sun, I'm telling you. All right, all right. So. So you mentioned deep fakes. Let's show that one. There's a Talarico deepfake that's going around, and this is. You know, I could tell that this is not really him because I think it's ridiculous. But, I mean, what I've seen move people in elections show that this is. This is not him. This is a deep fake of James Delaware. Go. Boys in white dresses with blue satin sashes. Girls dust with hormones till they grow mustaches. See, they're trying to. This is Texas, and they're trying to say he's gay.
- [38:35]
D
I got that. I
- [38:38]
B
took that off. But then they're leaking stuff about his past girlfriends. I don't understand that. They got to pick one side, right?
- [38:44]
A
They're. They're tripping.
- [38:45]
D
They're calling him a vegan, too. The poor guy's cardiologist. Going to be so mad at him because he's got to eat barbecue every day the rest of the campaign to show he's not a vegan.
- [38:52]
B
You know, so that's.
- [38:54]
A
That's what goes on in a state like Texas. Let's talk about California, because this is your state. And I was reading Fareed Zakaria's column this week. It was. Well, I'm sure you did. I'm sure it wasn't good news to you. Now, look, they've called California a progressive laboratory for good reason. It is a progressive laboratory. It made me think about something I covered many years ago, maybe 10 years ago, Kansas. There was a governor there named Sam Brownback. Remember this?
- [39:22]
C
Of course.
- [39:22]
A
And he did. He did the opposite. He did the Republican laboratory, which was cut taxes for everybody and magically will grow more revenue. Of course, it was a giant disaster and we had a lot of fun calling it out.
- [39:35]
D
And Democrats won ever since there. Yeah, What? Democrats have won ever since. They're out there.
- [39:39]
A
Yeah, that's right. Okay, but the progressive laboratory, if it is a laboratory, that means it's doing experiments. We do need to have to call them out when they fail. Hasn't a lot. And I can go through the stats in Farid's column. And I've read them everywhere for years now. I mean, it's not good. We constantly take more money from the people and get less results. Is that not true? Isn't that what one party rule has given us in this state?
- [40:07]
B
Look, it's a mixed bag on the one, on the one hand, we've done certain things right. We have excellent higher education, the UCs, the California states. And it's led to of course, a lot of innovation. $20 trillion in my district, right. Education, health care.
- [40:24]
A
But we're all the guys are. That's what that money is.
- [40:28]
B
Well, it's been, it's been more, there's been a lot of innovation, technology. But we messed up housing, housing in this state. We have too much regulation, zoning where we don't build. We've made it very, very hard to build. And that's been a failure. I mean, and any person being honest about it needs to acknowledge that we've put roadblocks onto building housing. And that would in my view be the biggest failure. And that's what Fareed was saying, that the housing policy here has, has been bad.
- [40:54]
D
It's going to be a big challenge, I think if Governor Newsom is the nominee for Democrats in 28. Because you'll see a lot of folks in, in his own party who aren't from California. Used the stats and the images against him. And certainly you'd see it in the fall as well. Look, it's a trade off, I think, you know, in exchange for getting great weather, great schools, you know, opportunities.
- [41:15]
A
Great schools.
- [41:15]
D
What's that?
- [41:16]
A
The schools.
- [41:17]
D
Higher ed. Higher ed. Higher ed.
- [41:19]
A
How do we know they're so great?
- [41:20]
D
Well, the UC system is, you know,
- [41:23]
A
I don't know who's coming out of it and what they're learning. I mean, from what I see from the elite schools on the east, east coast, their shit, right.
- [41:30]
B
The UC has produced a lot of Nobel laureates just this past year. They, they take a lot of kids who don't are first in their families to go to college. I mean, the UC system genuinely is working. Cal State is working K through 12. There are issues, I mean, honestly, when there are, there are issues, I see
- [41:46]
A
kids demonstrating for Hamas. But I'm sure there's a challenge going on too.
- [41:50]
D
And there's structural challenges too. And it's very simple. The cost of living. People are voting with their feet, going to Arizona, going to Nevada, going to Idaho because it's cheaper to live there, there. And they can sort of see their dollar go farther. And until California addresses That they're going to have a serious challenge.
- [42:04]
B
I agree with that. I think the housing is the key issue. It's the, it's the biggest cost of living and then the child care cost. If you can get universal child care and if you get the health care costs down and you have housing policy, it would help move the state forward.
- [42:16]
D
But being seven bucks kind of hard to.
- [42:18]
A
People in this state do think that it has been a failure. I mean even in this city, even the Democrats. This is why this guy Steve Hilton, who's running for president now I'm a for governor here. I don't know much about him. He was on Fox News. I don't watch Fox News generally. They're assholes on Fox News.
- [42:38]
B
I go on Fox.
- [42:39]
A
You go on. Yeah, right. And that's good. I'm glad you do. I always, no, I always encourage Democrats to do that.
- [42:45]
B
I'm doing it Sunday.
- [42:47]
A
Good for you.
- [42:48]
D
If, if this was not a, I think big Democratic year based upon Trump backlash, that race would be a lot more interesting for governor. If it was about state issues and the performance of this state and direction of the state and you had a better, I think GOP candidate, I think that would be a very competitive race. The most competitive it's been here in a long time. The problem, Bill, is all politics is now national and everything's about Trump. It's a one man elect Trump. And so all Becerra is going to say is Trump, Trump, Trump. And that's, that's all the ads that are going to be. If you were to litigate the actual direction of the state, it would be a competitive race. But you can't do that in the Trump environment.
- [43:23]
B
The other thing, Jonathan, obviously Schwarzenegger was a larger than life personality. Hilton's not a celebrity. But Schwarzenegger had the common sense to say I'm going to be pro choice, right. I'm going to say that climate change exists. I'm going to be for gay rights and equality.
- [43:38]
D
Right.
- [43:39]
B
And you keep having these Republicans and they keep running who don't give on those issues, who don't give up on, want to bash gay people like, who want to deny climate science, just run someone. Schwarzenegger showed you how to compete.
- [43:50]
D
The same reason all politics is national. So that candidate can't get through the primary or what counts as the primary here because their hardcore base won't allow it. So you're left with these candidates who are Trump light, who are walking the line of those issues, who aren't viable in the fall. It used to be a moderate candidate for governor in California or Vermont or New York was acceptable and we'll have a chance to win, but you can't do it anymore.
- [44:12]
A
I think you're exactly right. The problem is that I used to talk about the toxic D why Democrats just are not competitive in so many states in this country.
- [44:21]
D
Same reason.
- [44:22]
A
And there's a, but there's a toxic R like in California, as long as Trump is president, no matter how bad it gets in California, no matter how many people think, and a lot of people do think it's a failure, the city is a failure, the state is a failure, it's still not. They will vote for failure over someone with an R by their name. My advice to Steve Hilton would be distance yourself from Trump if you want to have any chance of winning in this state. And you don't think he'll ever do that.
- [44:50]
D
I'm skeptical A because Trump would would lash back at it, but also because he'd help him, but he'd alienate the hardcore GOP voter in the state. If you don't have them, if you don't have your base, you can't win in the fall. But you're right, Bill. And by the way, the same thing still applies that toxic D Democrats can't compete in half this country. And the reason why they're never going to have an enduring Senate majority unless they change is because they can't compete in places like the Dakotas or like Texas or Oklahoma because of that same challenge.
- [45:18]
B
I think we can compete in 26 and 28 because most of this country doesn't want us in foreign wars. Most of this country wants us focusing on the manufacturing, manufacturing and economic building here. And Trump has failed that. He said, I was going to focus on America. There are no factories. There's no economic rebound in Ohio and Pennsylvania and Michigan, Wisconsin. If we run on economic renewal of the heartland, no more wars. Invest in Team America. I think we can win in almost any state.
- [45:45]
A
And if Gavin Newsom is the candidate, I mean, if Gavin Newsom with all the California baggage just trying to try to win over America, isn't he going to have to say some version of our two woke policies just didn't work here? We wanted less testing because that would be something to do with equity and it made the kids stupider. You know, we didn't want to tell the homeless they could get off, they have to get off the street because that would be, I don't know, interrupting their life.
- [46:14]
D
I think he's flexible enough that he would do it in the general election if he thought that that was the direction to win, I think he'd be up for that. Look at the trans issue. He's moved on that more to the center politically. So I think he'd be willing to do it. The challenges are the votes and quotes, as they say, from his past. And they hold that against him because previously he said other stuff. You know, that's the challenge.
- [46:33]
B
I always say. I'm a Pennsylvania born and raised, California representative.
- [46:38]
A
Okay, I got that. That was a big brag. Why, you don't like Pennsylvania? Oh, I love Pennsylvania.
- [46:49]
B
There you go. I think you need to have. I think whoever. I think for the Democratic Party, we need to make sure that it is California in the service of the country. It can't be California lecturing the country.
- [46:58]
A
So you guys were both at the Obama library?
- [47:00]
D
Yeah.
- [47:01]
A
Do we have a picture of the Obama library? Because it looks like Death Star. It looks like something aliens built in Dubai. I like that. Why do it cost $850 million? Yeah. I don't understand why progressives like this. Couldn't that, you know, money be better spent on something else? Who's going to go to this? Why do we need a president?
- [47:25]
D
Yeah. Well, what do you think?
- [47:27]
A
Why does anyone need a presidential library? These monuments to somebody's ego out of office. I don't. Are you. Anybody here in this audience planning to go to the Obama Presidential library? There you go. Really?
- [47:39]
B
Oh, no, don't.
- [47:40]
D
Come on.
- [47:41]
A
A bunch of fucking. You're not going to the old.
- [47:45]
B
Bob at a time Elon Musk is talking about sending people to Mars. You're telling me that spending up to a billion dollars, $1 billion, on commemorating the first and only African American who's ever been president isn't worth it?
- [47:59]
A
First of all, we don't need that building to do that. That's in our hearts and minds.
- [48:03]
B
Well, that's happened. But this is to inspire people. You know, Michelle Obama gave one of the greatest speeches. I'm. I'm telling you, don't listen to me. Just listen to her five minutes, and here's what she said. Racism was hurled at Barack Obama. Insults were hurled at Barack Obama. And he never lost his cool. He never gave in to a temper. And he showed that hope and patience and aspiration can overcome.
- [48:23]
A
What does that do with the building?
- [48:24]
B
The Bildo tells that story. The building.
- [48:27]
A
We didn't know that story without the building. Like, unless you go to the building, you're like, Obama. Who was he again?
- [48:33]
B
Well, you know, the save for education. You know what it's saying for education.
- [48:37]
A
But it's not that $850 million versus going to Mars. I don't want to go to Mars either. It's $850 million going to the real causes of people who really need it. That's the money I'm talking about. You know, we spend money on a lot of frivolous shit. I'm just saying you can't be a hypocrite about it.
- [48:54]
B
I don't think most presidents need libraries. I do think that Obama's story is unique. I'm biased, I worked for him. But it's a unique story of telling the possibility in this country of someone who had no shot. You know, when I was in law school, when I interned, they said to me, ro, you're Indian American, you're of Hindu faith. Go to the Capitol because you'll never get elected to anything. That's what I heard. And then Barack Obama happened and he changed the direction of this nation for millions of people.
- [49:22]
A
Again, nothing to do with the building, but thank you. All right, time for new rules. Okay, new rule. Now that we've all seen this hilarious viral photo of mom and dad getting married while their three year old daughter is just not having it, let me be the first to say this marriage will never last. Not because they'll fall out of love, but because this kid is going to kill you in your. Jack Schlossberg, the latest Kennedy to run for office, says RFK Jr. Appeared to him in a dream and told him he'd win a seat in Congress. He has to consider the possibility that it wasn't a dream and that Bobby really was in your bedroom while you were sleeping. It wouldn't be the weirdest thing he's ever done. Neural. Stop going down into caves. Every year there's another cave tragedy story and a dangerous rescue mission. And why you know what's down there? More cave. Unless it's where you keep wine. Stay up here with us. And if you still feel the need to get stuck in a dark hole, try grad school. I'm kidding. I'm sure the colleges are doing good. No rule. Stop acting like Americans were horrified when a broadcaster on Fox's World cup pregame show called James Corden a full kit wanker. First, we barely remember James Corden. Second, we have no idea what that means. And third, we weren't watching. The Knicks were on. New rule now that Florida Congressman Byron Donalds was out this week promoting literacy with a misspelled Word on his sign. You have to admit it kind of proves his point. But good on you for trying, Byron. Don't let it stop you from making America grape. And finally, neural, everybody has to start getting a little more excited for America's birthday. Come on, our big 250 is coming up. It's on July 4th for the kids in our public school, and I think that's a pretty big deal. Problem is there's kind of a stink on it because you know who is president right now. So the left half of the country fears he'll make the anniversary about him. Of course he will. I even bet that on Kalshee. The question is whether we all will help him do it. We shouldn't. This is about America. He isn't America. He's the temporary caretaker of America, America's employee. And the message should be that America isn't actually his and that no one side gets to own being psyched about the country. So I'm not down with this attitude of, well, we're having a party, but if Trump's going, I'm not. That's so high school. It should be in the Epstein files. Go to the party. It's a big celebration. You probably won't run into him. This country's 3.8%, and that's without Greenland. Look, I'm not saying Trump doesn't want to muddy the distinction between himself and the country. He sure as shit does. That's what wannabe authoritarians do. They try to blur that line. Don't be an accomplice. Especially since, for all of Trump's nonsense, America is still here, still incredibly prosperous by world standards, still the place people want to get to. Still free enough to let me put the word nonsense next to the president's name. You know, You do know. It's not that way everywhere. Now, am I worried about creeping authoritarianism and attacks on free speech speech and politicizing the Justice Department and enemies lists? Yes, as I have been since 2016, when I first used the term slow moving coup. But we're 10 years on now. And while Trump wanting to act like a king in many ways is still a story, so is the fact that he's also been checked. In 2020, he became the first president to flat out not concede losing an election as I predicted. And yet he didn't stay president either. In cases where a court has ruled for Trump or the plaintiff, Trump is winning less than 1 out of 10. Even the pliant Supreme Court checked him on tariffs. A court made him take his name off the Kennedy center, and he didn't fight it. 10 more days. 10 more days, please. Here's the. Here's the budget cuts to key departments Trump wanted in his second term, and here's what actually happened. Almost no change. Congress didn't go along. America may right now be the country Donald Trump is president of, but America is also everything that keeps Trump from being the king he wishes he were. So. So this Fourth of July, let's celebrate the genius American idea of checks and balances, which, yes, is threatened and, yes, is taking on water, but is still afloat like those tall ships I remember from 1976. Oh, yes, I remember. I was 20 and I wore a bicentennial T shirt that whole summer. Yeah, man, I wore it every day. And nobody thought it meant that. I loved Nixon because 50 years ago, liberals didn't concede patriotism. Abbie Hoffman was the quintessential 60s radical, and when he had to appear before the House UN American Activities Committee, he wore an American flag shirt, which some cops later ripped off his back. Because the message that most threatens authoritarians isn't America sucks, it's America is ours, too. Every election year, Democrats seem to remember patriotism for about an hour at their convention when they're trying to win back swing voters. The whole message of Kamala's speech in 2024 was take back the flag. That's why she talked about America like a pageant contestant. The greatest privilege on earth. The privilege and pride of being an American. Hard to believe she lost, huh? Well, you can't take back the flag in an hour if the rest the of. Most of the time, you treat patriotism as something vaguely embarrassing. It shouldn't be, even though we are far from perfect. You know, in 1976, when I was wearing that T shirt with my nut hugger shorts, America wasn't exactly crushing it then either. Inflation was around 6%. Mortgage rates were almost 9. There was actually a thing called the Misery Index. The average person earned far less than they do today. They had a smaller house and watched a tiny TV that had three channels. Mostly I Love Lucy reruns. The closest thing we had to euphoria was Three's Company. RAI was Cliff Notes. Women had just won the right to get a credit card without their husband signing off on it. And there were no women on the supreme court and only 19 in Congress. Infant mortality was three times higher. And we had just been through Vietnam and Watergate, for which President Ford pardoned Nixon before pardoning crooks was cool. You think filling up Your tank is a headache now. Back then being online meant you were waiting for gas. Everything had lead in it, which fucked up kids brains even worse than TikTok. People smoked inside planes and drunk driving was considered driving. They did.
- [59:12]
B
I love it.
- [59:13]
A
The hot car that year was the Pinto because it was on fire. And since there wasn't any Internet porn yet, if you wanted something to masturbate to for free, you had to wait for a streaker. LA had smog days, buildings had asbestos, radio had disco duck. Things were bad man, so bad I was forced to sell everyone drugs just to cheer them up. And yet it didn't stop us from making 1976 one big P. Diddy freak off for America. Because ask Joe Biden, you only turn 200 once. So come on, it's the 4th. Don't let this year's 4th become another excuse for partisan sulking. Let it be an excuse to be really hungover on the fifth. All right, that's our show. I want to thank Jonathan Martin, Rona and Sam Levinson. Club Random drops Every Monday on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcast. Now go watch Overtime on YouTube. Thank you very much ladies and gentlemen. Thank you guys. Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch them anytime on each HBO On Demand. For more information, log on to HBO.com Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with a message for everyone Paying big Wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop with Mint. You can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying.
- [61:11]
C
No judgments. But that's weird.
- [61:13]
A
Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to 15 per month. Required intro rate first three months only, then full price plan opt available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com the right window treatments change everything. Your sleep, your privacy, the way every room looks and feels. @blinds.com, we've spent 30 years making it surprisingly simple to get exactly what your home needs. We've covered over 25 million windows and have 50,000 five star reviews to prove we deliver.
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D
Whether you DIY it or want a
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A
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