Overtime – Episode #678: Michael Douglas, John Heilemann, Sarah Isgur

Summary

Real Time with Bill Maher – Episode #678: Michael Douglas, John Heilemann, Sarah Isger

Release Date: November 12, 2024

In Episode #678 of HBO's "Real Time with Bill Maher," host Bill Maher engages in a spirited and candid discussion with guest panelists Michael Douglas, John Heilemann, and Sarah Isger. The conversation delves into contemporary political dynamics, media influence, electoral challenges, and the evolving landscape of democracy in the United States. This summary captures the key topics, insightful exchanges, and notable quotes from the episode.

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Introduction and Guest Presentations

The episode kicks off with Bill Maher introducing his guests:

• Michael Douglas: A two-time Oscar-winning actor and producer, known for narrating the documentary America's Birding available on Apple TV. He also serves as Cluck’s chief political economist and a national news analyst for MSNBC and NBC News.

• John Heilemann: Senior editor of Dispatch and host of their legal podcast Advisory Opinion.

• Sarah Isger: [Role not specified in the transcript but participates actively in the discussion].

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Intimacy Coordinators in Film and Television

Timestamp [01:02] - [03:10]

The discussion begins with Maher posing a question to Michael Douglas about his experience with intimacy coordinators—a role that emerged from the Me Too movement to oversee sex and intimate scenes in productions. Michael Douglas reflects on his past work:

Michael Douglas: “I remember with Fatal Attraction, you know, we had... When I had Glenn close up on the kitchen... [03:10]”

Bill Maher shares his perspective, indicating he hasn't faced issues with intimacy coordinators but finds their presence a bit peculiar:

Bill Maher: “No, I don't agree.”

The conversation highlights differing viewpoints on the necessity and impact of intimacy coordinators in the entertainment industry.

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The Need for a Democratic Social Media Platform

Timestamp [03:41] - [06:28]

The panel shifts to discuss whether the Democratic Party needs its own social media platform to counteract Republican influence, especially after changes in Twitter's management under Elon Musk. Michael Douglas expresses skepticism about replicating Twitter, citing its transformation into a “toxic cesspool.”

John Heilemann: “Dave Chappelle... how he doesn't know very much about what goes on Twitter because he doesn't go on Twitter because Twitter is not a real place.”

Sarah Isger emphasizes the challenges Democrats face in reaching younger and middle-aged voters:

Sarah Isger: “The way to reach the growing parts of the electorate is through... platforms that are not 60 Minutes and Fox News or MSNBC...”

The discussion underscores the fragmentation of media silos and the difficulty in creating unified platforms that effectively engage diverse voter demographics.

---

Challenges Facing Democratic Candidates

Timestamp [06:28] - [16:12]

A significant portion of the episode delves into the hurdles Democratic candidates encounter, particularly Kamala Harris's candidacy. The panel critiques the short duration of her campaign and the lack of sufficient introduction to the electorate, attributing her challenges to:

• Insufficient Campaign Duration: Harris was elevated to the top of the ticket only 107 days before the election, limiting her ability to build recognition and support.

John Heilemann: “... is a very high degree of difficulty to put on anybody. And I do not think she is the perfect candidate.”

• Party Dynamics and Support: The absence of a primary process hindered the ability to refine her campaign and address public concerns effectively.

Michael Douglas compares the American electoral process unfavorably to other countries, questioning why the U.S. cannot conduct elections more swiftly and efficiently:

Michael Douglas: “Every other country in the world can do it in months, sometimes weeks. Why can’t America?”

Sarah Isger adds that systemic issues like gerrymandering and campaign finance problems exacerbate these challenges, suggesting:

Sarah Isger: “Get rid of super PACs by making it no limits, full disclosure, 24-hour disclosure. We could fix democracy in a minute.”

The panel agrees that entrenched political structures and outdated campaign strategies are significant barriers to Democratic success.

---

Impact of Social Media and Public Perception

Timestamp [16:12] - [17:53]

The conversation transitions to the influence of social media on public perception and political polarization. Sarah Isger raises concerns about the addictive nature of social platforms and their detrimental effects on youth mental health:

Sarah Isger: “We have kids committing suicide because they're on these social media platforms and AI that's talking back to them...”

Michael Douglas critiques the lack of effective regulation and the ongoing challenges posed by misinformation:

Michael Douglas: “We have not done anything to deal with it. We've just been like, it's partisan.”

The panel discusses the necessity for the Democratic Party to innovate in its communication strategies to resonate with a broader electorate, particularly the youth.

---

Divisive Politics and Future Outlook

Timestamp [17:53] - [20:12]

In the latter part of the episode, the panel addresses the broader implications of political divisiveness on society. Sarah Isger highlights a movement among some American women turning away from traditional institutions like dating and marriage as a response to political tensions:

Sarah Isger: “Conservatives will outbreed you.”

Bill Maher and Michael Douglas engage in banter over the seriousness of these societal shifts, ultimately underscoring the deepening rift between political factions.

Bill Maher: “We are getting to this place where because of politics, the men and the women are moving further and further apart.”

The episode concludes with discussions on potential leadership within the Democratic Party and the urgent need for systemic reforms to bridge political divides and restore faith in democratic processes.

---

Conclusion

Episode #678 of "Real Time with Bill Maher" presents a critical examination of the current state of American politics, media influence, and the challenges facing the Democratic Party. Through engaging dialogue and pointed critiques, the panelists articulate the complexities of modern electoral dynamics and the pressing need for strategic innovation and systemic change. Notable quotes and insights throughout the episode provide a comprehensive understanding of the obstacles and opportunities within the evolving political landscape.

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Notable Quotes:

• Bill Maher [00:20]: “We are the champions of truth. We are the nerds.”

• John Heilemann [04:22]: “Twitter is not a real place, but it's become a toxic cesspool filled with misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories.”

• Sarah Isger [06:28]: “The way to reach the growing parts of the electorate is through platforms that are not 60 Minutes and Fox News or MSNBC.”

• Michael Douglas [12:29]: “Why can’t America do elections in months like every other country?”

• Sarah Isger [16:08]: “Get rid of super PACs by making it no limits, full disclosure, 24-hour disclosure. We could fix democracy in a minute.”

---

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing readers with a clear understanding of the key discussions and viewpoints expressed by the guests and host.

Transcript

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[Michael Douglas]

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Maher. Okay, we have a two time Oscar winning actor and producer who narrated the documentary America's Birding, available on Apple tv. Michael Douglas, like I have to tell you, came back to see us. And he's Cluck's chief political economist and national news analyst for MSNBC and NBC News. John Heilman is here and she's the senior editor of Dispatch and host of their legal podcast Advisory Opinion, Sarah Isger. Okay, I'm gonna go right to the most important question people asked Michael. What's been your experience with intimacy coordinators? There it is. Now, if you don't know what it is, what is an intimacy coordinator?

[Bill Maher]

Intimacy coordinators came along. The Me Too movement was to have in terms of sex scenes or intimate scenes. Have somebody there to control the.

[Sarah Isger]

You can say fuck on this show.

[Bill Maher]

No, I can't. Wasn't. Wasn't just that. But we never, we never had that when I was.

[Michael Douglas]

And was there any problem?

[Bill Maher]

No, there wasn't. I've never had any problem with that at all. But it's a little, it's a little weird. Well, I believe they work things out. I remember with Fatal Attraction, you know, we had. When I had Glenn close up on the kitchen.

[John Heilman]

I remember.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, yeah. And on the kitchen counter and this and that. And Adrian said, do you have any ideas? And Glenn said, well, what about if I lean back and turn the water on? Yeah. And then my fingers to the water. Get my fingers all wet and I stick them in your mouth. That might work. The secret I always found is you just don't surprise. You're the actress leading lady. So if you tell her, I'm gonna touch you here. Kiss, kiss.

[Michael Douglas]

I'm gonna touch you here. Do you ever learn one of those things like the water thing and then bring it home.

[Bill Maher]

And. Every chance I get.

[Michael Douglas]

Because every time I hear an actor talk about sex scenes, they always say the same thing. It's the least sexy thing you could ever do. Which makes sense. You got all these bright lights, all these people watching around. Yeah. I mean, George G. Scott had the great line. He supposedly said to the actress, I apolog if I get an erection and I apologize if I don't.

[Bill Maher]

No, I don't agree.

[Michael Douglas]

All right. Do the Democrats need a social media platform? This is for you, John. Of their own. To combat the Republican influence on Twitter. Well, I mean, I don't know, but Twitter, it's funny, it used to be completely left. Then Elon said, I'm going to take it over, so it's going to be 50, 50 right down the middle. He didn't do that. It just switched completely. So I don't know. It's terrible that I think that we have our own media silos. We need places where, like this show, but there's not enough of them, where everybody comes and everybody hears everybody else from all points of view.

[John Heilman]

I'd like to. I'd like to steal a line from Dave Chappelle, who said at some point how he doesn't know very much about what goes on Twitter because he doesn't go on Twitter because Twitter is not a real place. That's sort of how I feel about Twitter and Twitter. Not only is Twitter not a real place, but it's become a toxic cesspool filled with nothing not about right, it's not about conservative. It's just filled with misinformation, disinformation, conspiracy theories. So I would rather not have the left replicate that if there was, if that's what's required. I think the deeper question that the question's getting at is that if you look at the data in this election, the amount of reach of all of these alternative. I'm talking about the poll podcast space mostly, but also social media. The interviews that Trump did, not starting with Rogan, but Theo Vaughan and all of these other things he did, incredible reach compared to old mainstream media. Right. Where, you know, the number of people that Kamala Harris reached by going to talk to Bret Baer is a tiny fraction of. If you look up the look at the average, not just the number of downloads, but then the social media plays on YouTube and other places that Trump did by hitting all of those mostly bro friendly, male, young, skewing young Male podcast platforms. I think the issue is not so much that the left, quote, needs a platform. There are a bunch of people on. She went on, Harris went on, Call her daddy. Right. All the smoke, a few of those things. What the left has to, what Democrats have to figure out is the fact that the way to talk to voters who are not our age and the large swelling number of the segment of young voters and middle aged voters is that they have to start talking to them on platforms that are not 60 Minutes and Fox News or MSNBC or any of these, I hate to say it, dying legacy media platforms when the way to reach the growing parts of the electorate is through.

[Michael Douglas]

But isn't that another way of saying that Twitter is real, the Internet is real. Somebody just wrote a big article about this. Like that is where reality is now. And this is perfect for the movie you're going to do. Really?

[Bill Maher]

This is exactly. I hope you're taking notes. I'm taking notes.

[Sarah Isger]

In place of bipartisan agreement, remember Congress actually passed a ban, so to speak, that TikTok has to divest from China, for instance, basically by the end of this year. It's withstood court scrutiny so far. But I fear that we're heading towards a real clash between. You mentioned various social media platforms rat fucking our kids minds becoming incredibly addictive and the First Amendment in free speech, which I know you also care a great deal about. And how do we deal with this? We have not done anything to deal with it. We've just been like, it's partisan. This sign's for me and that sign's for me. Forget all of that. The problem is that we have kids committing suicide because they're on these social media platforms and AI that's talking back to them and they think it's a person.

[Michael Douglas]

Right? Yeah.

[Sarah Isger]

Those are their relationships.

[Michael Douglas]

Those are their relationships. I also think everything the candidates, especially the Democrats do to get voters annoys them. The constant texting. Did you get the texts like from Tim Walz every five minutes and like always begging for money and knocking on doors. We've got people knocking on doors. People don't want knocking on your door. Who in this day and age wants someone knocking on. Kids don't even like it when you a phone call. That's like too much of a invasion of their privacy, which they don't care about. Who might emerge as the strongest Democratic opposition leader in the next Trump era? Oh, well, that's a good question. I mean like Adam Schiff, he won right? Big.

[Bill Maher]

And he won big.

[Michael Douglas]

I like Wes Moore, Wes Moore is fantastic. He's in Maryland. Yep. But who's going to be the one? Gavin Newsom we have here in this state. He's already like called the legislature to.

[Sarah Isger]

I mean, this.

[Michael Douglas]

Trump hasn't done anything yet. But I understand the, I understand the.

[Sarah Isger]

This was the problem. You know, There was a 2014 study that showed that Fortune 500 companies were more likely to pick a female CEO if the company was struggling, basically setting women up for the big job, but to also fail. If they did well, fine. But if they failed, like, look, we have a female CEO while failing. And that's what I feel like they did to Kamala Harris when Biden refused to step aside and not run again. He was supposed to be that bridge. He backed off on that promise due to arrogance. And then he drops out after a catastrophic debate performance and they set Kamala Harris up to fail. That was a three month campaign and she was supposed to introduce herself to the American people. No wonder people were googling. Did Joe Biden drop out?

[Michael Douglas]

And so no, you're saying three months wasn't long enough. It was too long.

[Bill Maher]

It was long enough. It was long enough.

[Michael Douglas]

It's not that they didn't have introduced. They met someone and didn't like them.

[Sarah Isger]

If they had had a primary, they wouldn't have picked her. And if they had been able to rough out those edges, that then she basically has to start from scratch with a campaign team she didn't hire that didn't like her. Right. It was his team. And so I wonder if that next Democratic person, maybe someone's not even on our radar yet. Because frankly, when you look at the history of who's, you know, there's two types. The one who waited in line, who was next in line. And then there's the one who comes out. That's Obama, that's Clinton, that's Reagan to some extent.

[Bill Maher]

We had a strong bench. There's a very strong bench. There's a number of people. It could be possibilities.

[Michael Douglas]

You're talking about people like Josh Shapiro, who could have been the vice president. Connecticut, Pennsylvania, Blumenthal.

[Bill Maher]

No, Chris.

[Michael Douglas]

Chris Murphy.

[John Heilman]

Chris Murphy with Sarah about this one thing. If you're the sitting vice president for a president who has throughout his entire term in office been sitting at about somewhere between a 35 and 40% approval rating. Countries on people view the Biden administration as a failure. We could have a long discussion about whether they are right about that, about the economy. But the perceptions of the economy were that people thought inflation was too high. People Thought we were on the wrong track. 75% wrong track numbers and this huge inflation overhang. You're the sitting vice president and you get, you get put on the, elevated to the top of the ticket 107 days ahead of the election. I think that that is a very high degree of difficulty to put on anybody. And I do not think she is the perfect candidate. I tend to agree with Sarah that probably in a fully litigated primary she probably would not have been the Democratic nominee. But we will never know that. But I will tell you that like there's never been anybody who's had the difficulty of that situation elevated that lady. Nick Yemen why Democrat needed to run away from Bill. I don't know if you know this, but the vice President of the United States is basically shoved in a broom closet for three and a half years.

[Michael Douglas]

I know you couldn't. She was more popular in there.

[John Heilman]

Yes.

[Michael Douglas]

Well, I mean this idea that in a mass, the idea in a mass media Age that 107 days is not long enough to know somebody.

[John Heilman]

You are, you are, you are, you are way overestimating the American people in terms of what they.

[Michael Douglas]

No, no, no.

[John Heilman]

You have someone like Donald Trump has become a universally known, understood, loved by some, hated by others over the course of being omnipresent eight years. Barack Obama becomes president of the United States after running for two years as president, runs a 50 state primary, is on television, does dozens of Democratic debates and by the time at the end of that, most people knew who he was. Most people you put drop somebody into the middle of the top of the ticket three days out, three months out, you are going to have to spend a lot of time trying to introduce yourself to the country while also being in a steel cage death match with Donald Trump.

[Michael Douglas]

Okay, but I don't know if you ever watched this show, but I had Michael Douglas on this week. Yeah. And at the top we were talking about this and he made a very good point that every other country in the world can do it in months, sometimes weeks. Why can every other country do it in that shorter period of time? Are they all that so much brighter than America? I don't think so.

[Sarah Isger]

Well, mostly parliamentary. I mean there's like literal reasons, right. We don't have a parliamentary system. We also have a First Amendment. We don't make people campaign. This whole time the American people want to give them 20 bucks and so they can afford it. I mean, small dollar donors are arguably the worst thing that's happened to our politics.

[Bill Maher]

As it turned out, it's a small dollar. Small dollar. Donors didn't make $20 billion.

[Sarah Isger]

A lot of it.

[Michael Douglas]

Some of it.

[Sarah Isger]

And they represent about 2% of our customers.

[Bill Maher]

There's a few special packs in there that saw $100 million.

[Sarah Isger]

Those are bad too.

[John Heilman]

I think you can believe that you could have shorter elections in America, but it's not like we don't know. In Britain, for instance, when you have a short election, it's not like you don't know who the leader of the party is for months and years before that.

[Michael Douglas]

You're either the person who's googling the day before did Biden drop out? Or you know, in a week, you know, did anyone in this audience not know enough about Kamala Harris pretty much after a week to make a decision?

[Bill Maher]

No.

[Michael Douglas]

Yeah. You just people.

[Sarah Isger]

How are you going to do that?

[Michael Douglas]

Ridiculous. We just get sicker of them.

[Sarah Isger]

So.

[Michael Douglas]

They say the same stuff. What?

[Sarah Isger]

How? With free speech that I know you love?

[Michael Douglas]

Yeah.

[Sarah Isger]

How are you going to limit people's ability to run for office?

[Michael Douglas]

I'm not limiting. We're not making a lot of money.

[Bill Maher]

Involved.

[Sarah Isger]

Get rid of super PACs by making it no limits, full disclosure, 24 hour disclosure.

[Michael Douglas]

We could fix democracy in a minute. Get rid of gerrymandering. Get rid of money in politics. Get rid of the electoral college. No, none of that is. We're going to keep working with this constipated system that we live with. So.

[John Heilman]

Is it just as forget about what the system. About what system we think is the right system? Is it your contention is that no people were late deciders in the election?

[Michael Douglas]

Oh, no, they were. I talked about them last week. Chris, Steve, Shaw.

[John Heilman]

So those people apparently needed longer than 30 days.

[Michael Douglas]

They would have been undecided.

[Sarah Isger]

Exactly.

[Michael Douglas]

That's why I called them. I called them, John. I said this last week. Christmas Eve shoppers. My father was one. People who don't buy their presents until the Christmas Eve night. He would go into the store and he wouldn't feel like he could do it until he was fully in the spirit. He had to be in the store on Christmas Eve with Santa and all the fucking elves and everything else that was going on. And then he would make his decision. You could give those people 10 years. Really?

[John Heilman]

Okay.

[Sarah Isger]

I'll tell you, the LEGO store already has their Christmas ornaments out. I went today. I've got them. He's not a Christmas Eve shopper.

[Michael Douglas]

Why do you have to make all these excuses? Like I said, all this was this week was people who said, oh, she ran a flawless campaign. How ridiculous. Or it's sexism. It's racism. This is an old playbook.

[John Heilman]

I didn't say any of those things.

[Michael Douglas]

I didn't say. I know, but I've heard a lot of these things. And, like, I think America's perfectly willing to elect a woman. They just didn't like. The last two that were put up.

[Sarah Isger]

They're willing to elect.

[Michael Douglas]

I mean, there's some sexism.

[Sarah Isger]

They're willing to elect a woman when she's the best candidate that they're offered. That's that simple.

[John Heilman]

I think they are not. I think they were very unlikely to elect a. Whether the vice president to Joe Biden. Who had a. Yeah, that's a. Who had a rating.

[Michael Douglas]

That's what they didn't like.

[John Heilman]

The vice president to Joe Biden, whether it was a male, female, black, white, or anything else, was going to have a giant political albatross around their neck and they could perform perfectly or perform imperfectly, but that person was gonna be at a disadvantage.

[Michael Douglas]

She didn't make a good case. Well, she didn't denounce the past stuff that people didn't like. She just.

[Sarah Isger]

What would you do with Joe Biden? I can't think of anything. And she was offered a redo on that.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Michael Douglas]

That was terrible. That would hurt. That one.

[Sarah Isger]

Hurt.

[Bill Maher]

The focus on democracy was a little high, thinking that the abortion thing was the thing, but Trump neutralized the whole abortion thing, so the women thing didn't make a difference. And then the guys, the men. Geez. Just unbelievable. The debt that Trump put into them.

[Sarah Isger]

Several female voters said they were actually pleased that they could divide the decision. They could vote for Trump and vote for a ballot measure that was pro choice. So they felt like they could have their, you know, Trump cake and eat it, too. That metaphor went off.

[John Heilman]

Does anybody on the panel think that, given the size of Trump's victory. Right. He won. Proved his performance in almost every county in America. Right. From what we saw before is a 47% ceiling. He's now sitting at like, 50, half. 51. Does anybody think that a better. Anybody else. If you had had a different candidate replacing Joe Biden in August, that that person would have turned back that tide on election night, would have. Suddenly all of those Trump gains would have gone away and they would have won the election.

[Sarah Isger]

Yes. If they had been a change candidate who ran away from Biden and could distinguish themselves from Trump and it said, joe Biden's administration has been a disaster for you, and I'm gonna have a third way that, yes, A new voice could have done that. But Kamala Harris could not because she could not, would not distance herself.

[Michael Douglas]

She wanted to have it both ways, not lose the woke people who have the energy in the party, you know. All right, one more question. In the wake of Donald Trump's victory, some American women say they are turning to a movement that advocates no sex, dating or marriage with men and no children. Wow. No sex, dating, marriage or children.

[Sarah Isger]

Then the conservatives will outbreed you.

[Michael Douglas]

Right?

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, good plan.

[Sarah Isger]

That's the dumbest fucking thing I've heard.

[Michael Douglas]

But we are getting to this place where because of politics, the men and the women are moving further and further apart. And if they don't want to be together, what's going to happen to these people?

[Sarah Isger]

We can replace y'all so easily.

[Michael Douglas]

Why?

[Bill Maher]

Well, I don't know. There always the men and women seem real separate there. The women always in. The men are going off dilladally around with one person or another.

[Michael Douglas]

Yes. Well, the men are all gay. There are no, not all gay there. There's many very strapping heterosexuals like Hugh Grant, Great leading man.

[Sarah Isger]

Not touch.

[Michael Douglas]

Right. Well, I'm just going to remember since we have a movie star here, that it was a movie star, George Clooney, who really affected this election. I mean, Biden might still be in there if George Clooney, you know, talk about celebrities and how important they are. I don't think they're important in getting the voters to do something, but they sure were important in getting the party heads to finally do that.

[Sarah Isger]

This was another part, I think, of why people didn't trust Harris because at the same time she's saying, hey, these things I said in 2019 that were kind of like left wing crazy, I don't mean them anymore. Also, Joe Biden was totally fine and I have no idea why he dropped out. And I never saw any problem the whole time I was in the White House. Either you weren't in the room, you weren't paying attention, or you were lying to us. And the gaslighting is so frustrating.

[Michael Douglas]

Right? And you know, I called him, I said, you know, like a year before he dropped out, I said, you're going to be Ruth Bader Biden. That's what I kept quoting. You're going to be the Ruth Bader Ginsburg of the party. And people just would come up to me, you know, the liberals, the ones who I'm not good enough for anymore because I'm just too concerned. Bill, stop making jokes about Biden's aid. You're going to help Trump, right? Like, if I didn't mention it, no one would have noticed. All right, we got to go. Thank you very much. Michael Douglas. Thank you for joining us. What a nice surprise. Okay. Oh, I forgot to plug my book. Oh, well.

[Sarah Isger]

Catch all new episodes of Real Time.

[Michael Douglas]

With Bill Maher every Friday night at.

[John Heilman]

10 or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand.

[Michael Douglas]

For more information, log on to HBO.com.

[Bill Maher]

Every Hero in Gotham City has an origin story. And Nerd Wallet. Nerds like me are no different. I discovered the power of a high yield savings account in a secret lab experiment and I had to tell everybody about it.

[Michael Douglas]

Okay, we might not be actual superheroes, but we did become the nerds. To help you make smarter financial decisions.

[John Heilman]

We'Ve researched and reviewed thousands of financial.

[Michael Douglas]

Products so the good citizens of Gotham City, I mean, your city, don't have to.

[Bill Maher]

Nerds Nerd Wallet Finance. Smarter.