Overtime – Episode #689: Ezra Klein, Andrew Sullivan

Summary

Real Time with Bill Maher – Overtime Episode #689: Ezra Klein and Andrew Sullivan

Release Date: March 25, 2025

HBO's Real Time with Bill Maher presents Episode #689 of the Overtime segment, featuring insightful discussions with journalists and political commentators Ezra Klein and Andrew Sullivan. The episode delves into a variety of pressing topics, ranging from the origins of COVID-19 to the intricacies of the American happiness index, providing listeners with a comprehensive exploration of contemporary issues.

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Introduction of Guests

Ezra Klein and Andrew Sullivan join Bill Maher to discuss their perspectives on recent developments in politics, science, and society. The conversation sets the stage for a deep dive into topics that have significant implications for public trust and policy-making.

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COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory and Intelligence Reports

The discussion kicks off with Andrew Sullivan addressing the contentious issue of COVID-19's origins. He raises concerns about the credibility of intelligence reports dismissing the lab leak theory:

Andrew Sullivan (01:16): "Not just new 80 to 95% certainty. Same with the German intelligence service... there is no evidence that this was made in a lab. The question is why? Why would they lie to us about that? And they did."

Ezra Klein counters by highlighting the politicization of the issue and its impact on public trust:

Ezra Klein (02:30): "The New York Times said any questioning of this being from a lab was racist, which always struck me as odd..."

The guests explore the implications of these intelligence assessments, questioning the integrity of scientific institutions and the motivations behind dismissing alternative theories.

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Trust in Scientists and Democratic Institutions

Sullivan emphasizes the erosion of trust in scientific authorities, particularly pointing fingers at prominent figures like Anthony Fauci:

Andrew Sullivan (04:32): "Anthony Fauci. Now remember that name. There's a reason he was given a pardon back in 2014. There is something very wrong going on here."

Ezra Klein acknowledges the complexity of gain-of-function research, advocating for a balanced debate rather than attributing malintent:

Ezra Klein (04:20): "He just made the wrong call."

The conversation underscores the critical need for empirical and objective scientific inquiry to rebuild public trust.

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JFK and Epstein Files: Conspiracy Theories and Public Perception

Transitioning to historical controversies, the guests discuss the release of JFK and Epstein files, debating whether these disclosures will quell or fuel conspiracy theories.

Guest Speaker (09:55): "The idea that in the files, somewhere in all of these files that they were going to release and there was going to be this one page that says, oh, we actually knew the whole time."

Ezra Klein reflects on the challenges of demystifying entrenched conspiracy theories:

Ezra Klein (09:58): "I don't think we'll ever know for sure because this was the final news dump. And if they don't know now, they, you know, they don't know."

This segment highlights the enduring nature of conspiracy theories and the difficulty in fully addressing public mistrust through official channels.

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American Happiness Index vs. Nordic Countries

The episode shifts to a critique of the United States' ranking on the world's happiness index, which surprisingly places the U.S. 24th behind countries like Lithuania and Costa Rica.

Andrew Sullivan (12:26): "I find the whole idea of happiness a little silly. I mean, happiness is not... These are polls they do of people that create news stories and fill in for bad news days."

Ezra Klein counters the notion, suggesting that external perceptions may not fully capture the complexities of national well-being:

Ezra Klein (12:42): "I think they're just fucking with us when they take the poll."

The discussion questions the validity of happiness metrics and what they truly reflect about societal well-being.

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Disney’s Snow White Remake and Cultural Representation

Addressing the ongoing culture wars, the guests analyze the controversy surrounding Disney's remake of Snow White.

Ezra Klein (13:53): "Didn’t we already?"

Andrew Sullivan (15:11): "Have on."

They discuss the challenges of representation and authenticity in modern adaptations, critiquing the casting choices and the balancing act between progressive representation and authentic portrayal.

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Political System: Ranked Choice Voting and Independent Candidates

The conversation moves to electoral reforms, specifically ranked choice voting (RCV) and the rise of independent candidates.

Andrew Sullivan (16:50): "We're just about to get it in D.C. is ranked choice voting. 1, 2, 3. You actually show people that you don't like this nutter, but you'd rather this nutter than that one."

Ezra Klein supports RCV as a means to achieve consensus candidates:

Ezra Klein (17:24): "For all the Eric Adams joke, ranked choice voting is a good idea. We should should do it."

They debate the merits of RCV in fostering a more representative and less polarized political landscape, suggesting it as a viable solution to entrenched party politics.

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the discussed topics, emphasizing the need for integrity in science, the importance of transparent governance, and the potential of electoral reforms to enhance democratic processes. Ezra Klein and Andrew Sullivan provide thought-provoking insights, challenging listeners to critically assess the structures that shape contemporary society.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Andrew Sullivan (01:16): "There is no evidence that this was made in a lab. The question is why? Why would they lie to us about that? And they did."
• Ezra Klein (02:30): "The New York Times said any questioning of this being from a lab was racist, which always struck me as odd..."
• Andrew Sullivan (04:32): "Anthony Fauci... there is something very wrong going on here."
• Ezra Klein (09:58): "I don't think we'll ever know for sure because this was the final news dump."
• Andrew Sullivan (12:26): "I find the whole idea of happiness a little silly."
• Ezra Klein (17:24): "Ranked choice voting is a good idea. We should should do it."

This episode of Real Time with Bill Maher offers a rich and engaging exploration of critical issues, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of the complexities shaping today's political and social landscape.

Transcript

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[Andrew Sullivan]

You don't wake up dreaming of McDonald's fries. You wake up dreaming of McDonald's hash browns. McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Bill Maher]

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Ma.

[Ezra Klein]

All right, here we are with the host of the Ezra Klein show podcast and the co author of the book Abundance, Ezra Klein. And he writes the weekly Dish newsletter and hosts the podcast the Dish Cast with Andrew. Andrew Sullivan. Okay, here are the questions. Andrew, what do you think of news that British intelligence knew Covid was a lab leak in 2020 and officially ignored their report?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Not just new 80 to 95% certainty. Same with the German intelligence service. March 2020. There's a new book out called Covid's Wake. I was reading it this last couple of weeks and the core paper that killed off any idea that this was a lab leak in China, the proximal origin paper, which was produced with Fauci and Collins of the NIH and Niad helping it along, was a lie, a conscious lie that the people who looked at it, we now have their emails, are saying in the very first days of looking at the. At the virus. This looks very man made to us. This is so frigging obvious. This is man made so frigging obvious, one of them said. And then they wrote the report saying, there is no evidence that this was made in a lab. The question is why? Why would they lie to us about that? And they did.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, I can give you one answer. The New York Times. The New York Times said any questioning of this being from a lab was racist, which always struck me as odd because it seems much more racist to go, wow, these people are eating bats.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I know.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, it's just one example, but a good example of why people lost faith in the left because they do stupid things like that. Not to be an I told you so, but from the very beginning I was saying this shouldn't even be political, but it's at least a 50. 50 it came from the lab. And that in 50 years, I can't imagine people going, wait, you mean in 2020 there was this thing that escaped from a lab in Wuhan that started in Wuhan and there was a lab in Wuhan that was studying it and they didn't think that was connected and they blamed it on bats. Really. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Andrew Sullivan]

It makes a little bit more sense.

[Ezra Klein]

You can gaslight people so easily.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I don't think the Democrats are so much as fault as scientists who went along with this, knowing better. It's their integrity I'm concerned about. To actually lie and distort what they could see with their own eyes because they were afraid of politics. The other question is this. These, this lab was a gain of function lab. That means they were creating viruses, dangerous viruses to turn to figure out how to. How to protect you from them. This gain of function research was always dangerous. Everyone knew it was dangerous long time ago. You go back to 2015, you will find a big meeting in London where they say there's one lab in the world most likely to have a problem with this. Wuhan. Do you know who was the biggest supporter of gain of function research for the last 30 years? Anthony Fauci. Anthony Fauci. Now remember that name. There's a reason he was given a pardon back to 2014. There is something very wrong going on here.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah. I also don't think he did it for nefarious reasons. There's an argument to be made. There's an actual intellectual debate to be had. Should gain of function research be done. We want to get ahead of viruses. The other answer is. The other response would be it's too dangerous because if it gets out, it's going to be bad. And that's what happened. But it is a. I don't think he's an evil guy like some people do who was trying to get rich off this. No.

[Andrew Sullivan]

No.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay. He just made the wrong call.

[Andrew Sullivan]

No. He knew from the get go that the Wuhan lab had security levels that were the average of a dentist's office. It should have been at the highest level imaginable. He knew that. Not only that.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, he made the wrong call.

[Andrew Sullivan]

NIH and NID had helped fund it.

[Ezra Klein]

Right.

[Andrew Sullivan]

So you don't want to go down in history as the person who helped develop the virus that killed millions of people. You want to go down to the one who saved millions of people. That was at stake. A reputational matter.

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[Bill Maher]

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[Ezra Klein]

1, 2, 3 will that be cash or credit?

[Bill Maher]

Credit.

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[Bill Maher]

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[Guest Speaker]

Lot of this that seems insane to me is we are now years after, whether man made or not, one of the worst disasters in human history, and we are genuinely less prepared for the next one than the last one.

[Ezra Klein]

It's not one of the worst disasters in human history. I could name a hundred worse ones.

[Guest Speaker]

Fair enough. But it was bad. I didn't enjoy it, but it was.

[Ezra Klein]

But I mean, I mean, let's not be perfect.

[Guest Speaker]

It was a bad pandemic. Let's put it away.

[Ezra Klein]

Let's go a lot lot worse as pandemics.

[Guest Speaker]

Genuinely not my point on this. I'm happy to see that the Holocaust was worse than the pandemic. I think it's fine. But in other things, other countries in this country, right after something terrible happens, you often have these big bipartisan commissions that come up with a bunch of recommendations and try to create preparedness for next time. I sort of agree with you that we've gone way too far on airport security for too long. But we did a lot on things like biosecurity that made sense and actually did make us safer. And we have learned. We have anti learned lessons, right? On the one hand we had amazing success with things like Operation warp speed. And now you got RFK Jr. Running HHS. On the other hand, bunch of huge mistakes are made on things like lockdowns, and we're just arguing about them. We haven't put out, say, a new best practices right. Gain of function research, which y'all were just talking about. It is just an argument. It's something I try to keep paying attention to, and they haven't come out with strong new guidelines. Bird flu. Everybody I read who knows what they're talking about says we are in a terrible position on bird flu if it actually begins to mutate and make the jump.

[Andrew Sullivan]

We're.

[Guest Speaker]

We just have never figured out a way to find a policy equilibrium here as opposed to sort of keep rehabbing the argument. The arguments are important because everything gets politicized, but everything gets politicized. We don't have the capacity to come to agreement. It's really bad that we are this unprepared now.

[Andrew Sullivan]

But that's why the integrity of science.

[Guest Speaker]

I agree with you on that.

[Andrew Sullivan]

If we don't trust the scientists, who on earth are we going to trust? And I really. I really want to trust them. I want to trust them. I trusted Fauci during eight. I'm really upset that I don't think I can trust him on this. We need to have empirical, good, objective search for truth, right?

[Ezra Klein]

You think we have to all agree on it. What I hated was when he said, I am the science. That is so not what science is. You're right. We need to trust the science, which means we needed to hear all of the scientists and not shut out the people who weren't on the page. That's what bothered me about this. Okay, can we expect to learn anything revelatory from the JFK files just released? Well, what do you mean expect? We saw them and we didn't. Is it time to move on from this conspiracy theory? Well, I mean, do you think it's conspiracy theory? I mean, I mean, plainly there was not a single gunman, right? We. We all agree on that. No, I mean that I have.

[Guest Speaker]

You believe such weak opinions on this.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I did not have it a long time ago.

[Guest Speaker]

Such an.

[Ezra Klein]

But the magic bullet. There could not have been a bullet that went. Threw a guy, went around him, came back, went through the other guy, got lunch at the diner, came back, shot him in the back of the head. I mean, it's just. Come on, everybody heard a shot from the grassy knoll. I mean, I don't think that we care.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I don't I mean, honestly, I'm done with it. I mean, it's. I don't.

[Ezra Klein]

I don't think we'll ever know for sure because this was the final news dump. And if they don't know now, they, you know, they don't know. But, you know, the idea that the CIA is going to now suddenly go, ah, you're right, we had something to do with it. If they did. I'm not saying they did, but a lot of people wanted them dead.

[Guest Speaker]

The idea that in the files, somewhere in all of these files that they were going to release and there was going to be this one page that says, oh, we actually knew the whole time.

[Ezra Klein]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

It was always a little fanciful.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah.

[Andrew Sullivan]

That's why it's a little cruel to actually give them everything. Right. Because they could always hope that some mystery was there.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, what was cruel is to promote it. Like, it's going be great. And then it's Al Capone's vault.

[Guest Speaker]

The Epstein files came out all redacted.

[Andrew Sullivan]

What the redacted Epstein files are the.

[Guest Speaker]

Ones I've always been more interested in.

[Ezra Klein]

Was a lot redacted from the Epstein.

[Guest Speaker]

Files, A lot redacted in the Epstein files.

[Ezra Klein]

And what do you think?

[Guest Speaker]

I mean, I didn't go through and read them. I was seeing other people who cared more about this than I did talk about this on social media. But so long as we're talking about conspiracies, I've always thought that one's pretty weird. And they, like, the Trump administration came in with this big show of releasing the files, and then a bunch is blacked out, and they made that one.

[Ezra Klein]

Look yet stranger because Trump knew him. You mean you think.

[Guest Speaker]

I'm not making any suppositions on this. I'm just saying that when you come in and make such a big show of declassification and you're gonna tell everybody everything, then it comes out and you don't. It's a little weird, right?

[Ezra Klein]

Well, I always say whenever there's a guy with a lot of money and you don't quite know how he got it, he's probably some kind of a pimp. I've seen this before. I mean, that was Epstein's. That was Epstein's magic power. It's like, rich guys want to get laid. And sometimes it's like it's hard because they're famous or they have a wife or, you know, So, I mean. But really, it's like, honey, I'm just going to have dinner at Bill at Epstein's. House. He's a big philanthropist. Yeah, not on the third floor, he wasn't. The US ranked 24th in the world's happiness index behind much poorer countries like Lithuania and Costa Rica. Why are Americans so happy? Well, go ahead, take a shot at it. I mean.

[Guest Speaker]

I mean, you got an outside perspective. Why aren't we happier?

[Andrew Sullivan]

I find the whole idea of happiness a little silly. I mean, happiness is not.

[Ezra Klein]

And how do you measure it?

[Andrew Sullivan]

I know. It's bullshit. These are polls they do of people that create news stories and fill in for bad news days. I mean, that's what this is.

[Ezra Klein]

I think so.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I mean, I don't want to live in Finland. Right.

[Ezra Klein]

Right.

[Guest Speaker]

Fucking.

[Andrew Sullivan]

It's fucking dark and cold out. You can't see it often. It's freezing.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, right. That's so true.

[Andrew Sullivan]

They're all blissfully happy. But fine. All right, go ahead, work yourselves out.

[Ezra Klein]

I think they're just fucking with us when they take the poll. You're right. It's dark, like pitch black for, like, two months of the year. I mean, every meal is fish.

[Andrew Sullivan]

I've watched all those Netflix seasons as well.

[Ezra Klein]

I mean, I've been in the Nordic countries, you know, like, I mean, you think, oh, it's gonna be the Swedish bikini team. And, you know, if you're there on a Tuesday at Looks like Cleveland, I swear to God. I mean, they're lovely cities, but I was in Oslo on a Tuesday, and it was just. They weren't even blonde. They weren't even blonde. Most of the people I was very. I wanted my money back. It was very disappointing. Where are all the blondes? Okay, do the controversy surrounding Disney's Snow White remake show that we are still in the thick of the culture wars? Oh, have we been following the Snow.

[Guest Speaker]

White actually the first time hearing of this.

[Ezra Klein]

Really? No.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay, good for you. Well, the two stars are Gal Gadot. Who? She was in the Israeli Defense Forces. She's Israeli. And then Rachel Zegler plays Snow White. I think Gal plays the. I don't. I was not a child, so I don't follow that. I don't know fairy tales. I never read comic books.

[Guest Speaker]

Have on.

[Ezra Klein]

But something. Is this the one with the poison apple and the. Whatever it is?

[Andrew Sullivan]

Yes.

[Ezra Klein]

The rich. Okay, so they're in. And Rachel Zegler, being 23 or whatever she is, like so many kids raised on TikTok. She's all for info. Tata is the only global solution. So the two stars hate each other. And then they couldn't put dwarfs because this is just so typical. Of the left, the progressives always finding a way to find their way back to doing something not progressive. You'd think the most progressive thing would be get people jobs. And dwarves want to work. And this is like an honest golden.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Employment opportunity for dwarves.

[Ezra Klein]

There's not that many scripts that come down the pike.

[Andrew Sullivan]

There's only seven of them that has.

[Ezra Klein]

Oh, and there's seven dwarf jobs here. But because I think it was Peter Dinklage said, this is, you know, and this is not right, this is demeaning. And they were like, what? We just want to work. We're dwarves. So ho ho ho. Anyway, that's the. All right. Does SpaceX rescuing the astronauts mean that we will privatize space travel? Didn't we already?

[Andrew Sullivan]

I thought we did, yeah.

[Ezra Klein]

What the fuck question is that? This guy's really out of it. Do you agree with Bernie Sanders that progressives should shed the Democratic labor and run as independents instead? Is that what he's saying now? Should they aim to be angry moderates? Hmm.

[Guest Speaker]

I think it would be good not for all Democrats to shed the label of Democrats, but I think they should. More people should run as independents in more places. Dan Osborne in Nebraska. That was a great race and it makes sense. And I mean one of the ways that we've destroyed party competition in this country is that in a bunch of states they either find the right so repugnant. Think at the moment for me, understandably, or the left so repugnant there actually is no competition. So having people run as independents and be able to make an argument outside of the party label, it makes sense. It would be good if we. I would like to see. I think a lot of political donors are functionally counterproductive. I think creating the infrastructure for independent competition in states that are otherwise one party control would actually be a great use of political philanthropy.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Okay, the thing I like just.

[Ezra Klein]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Andrew Sullivan]

We're just about to get it in D.C. is ranked choice voting. 1, 2, 3. You actually show people that you don't like this nutter, but you'd rather this nutter than that one. So you give them a little priority. And as the people, as the candidates fall out when they get. Look, they then contribute their vote to the next one. So you get a consensus candidate.

[Ezra Klein]

Is that a jungle?

[Guest Speaker]

That's how we got Eric Adams in New York. And it's really.

[Andrew Sullivan]

Well, he's.

[Ezra Klein]

Well, you can't blame an all ranked choice voting. Is that a jungle primary? Is that what they call a jungle?

[Guest Speaker]

Jungle primary is different. California's jungle primary.

[Ezra Klein]

Right? What does that mean?

[Guest Speaker]

Jungle primary, I think, is that you have a bunch of people running and the top two vote getters, no matter what party they are, then have a runoff. So that's how you get a general election in California, where you have two Democrats running against each other. Ranked choice. Is that the general election you can have a lot of different candidates going or in a primary you can have a lot of different candidates and you're ranking through them. So if you have people who are consensus, like if everybody has kind of the same second choice, but people are split between like three more extreme first choices, you might get that second consensus candidate as the winner. For all the for the Eric Adams joke, ranked choice voting is a good idea. We should should do it.

[Ezra Klein]

Okay, Eric. Thank you everybody. I appreciate it.

[Bill Maher]

Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO on Demand. For more information, log on to hbo.com.

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