Overtime – Episode #707: Sen. Joe Manchin (D-WV), Alex Wagner

Summary

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Real Time with Bill Maher: Overtime – Episode #707 (Sen. Joe Manchin, Alex Wagner)

Date: September 23, 2025
Guests: Joe Manchin (Former Senator, D-WV; Author of Dead Center), Alex Wagner (MSNBC Senior Political Analyst), Pod Save America Contributor
Host: Bill Maher

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Episode Overview

This Overtime segment brings together Senator Joe Manchin, Alex Wagner, and a Pod Save America contributor for a lively, unscripted conversation covering Democratic messaging, government shutdown politics, the challenges of representation in American politics, and inclusivity within party leadership. The discussion is frank, humorous, and occasionally contentious, reflecting anxieties and strategic rifts within the Democratic Party.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Difficult Words in Democratic Messaging (01:25–02:30)

• Third Way Think Tank's Word List: Alex Wagner references a centrist think tank's suggestion that Democrats avoid words like "privilege" and "microaggression."
• Manchin's Response: Manchin firmly rejects the idea, insisting authenticity trumps messaging tricks.
  • “Let the person be who they are. ...People could shake your hand, look in your eyes and see your soul.” (Joe Manchin, 01:40)
  • He warns that Democrats are bleeding voters because they’re moving too far left:
    “The Democratic party has lost 160,000 registered Democrats since this November election...You gotta come back to center, center left. Center right is where you win the country.” (Joe Manchin, 01:54)

2. Language, Pronouns, and Political Disconnect (02:36–03:28)

• Manchin's Pronoun Anecdote: Manchin recounts being asked his pronouns on a college campus.
  • “I wanted to be Joe. …And she had a hard time with that.” (Joe Manchin, 03:12)
  • The panel ponders whether such language divides ordinary voters and drives them away from the party.

3. Is a Government Shutdown Coming? (04:59–08:29)

• Prospect of a Shutdown:
  • “I think there's enough Democrats that will work with Republicans not to shut it down. They're just not talking. This whole thing's blown apart.” (Joe Manchin, 05:02)
  • Manchin argues that shutdowns punish ordinary people and rarely produce positive results:
    • “When you shut the government down, how many people are harmed by that down the chain?” (Joe Manchin, 06:42)
  • Historical context: Manchin cites Ted Cruz’s 2013 shutdown and the eventual deal brokered by Biden and McConnell as an example of unnecessary brinkmanship.
• Strategic Calculations: There’s debate over whether Democrats should use shutdown leverage against Republican proposals or the President, or if that’s a losing tactic with the public.
• Senate Dynamics:
  • “The Senate was designed for the minority to have a voice. …Do your job. Talk to each other, get to know each other. They don't do that.” (Joe Manchin, 08:29)

4. Diversity in Democratic Leadership: Kamala Harris, Pete Buttigieg, and Representation (08:56–11:19)

• Kamala Harris's Book: Harris reveals she didn’t choose Buttigieg as VP because a Black woman and a gay man on one ticket seemed unviable.
  • The panel largely agrees it was probably a realistic assessment given current societal attitudes:
    • “I wish we were [ready], but … that was probably the right calculation.” (Pod Save America Contributor, 09:10)
• Politics of Identity:
  • The conversation turns to why the U.S. lags behind other countries in electing women to top office:
    • “Why are we so far behind most other countries in the world?” (MSNBC Senior Political Analyst, 11:42)
    • Manchin touts the positive influence of women in the Senate but can't explain the country's reluctance.
    • “White women keep giving elections to Donald Trump. So … misogyny knows no gender.” (Pod Save America Contributor, 11:49)
  • Citing global examples, the panel questions whether America is uniquely resistant to diversity in leadership.

5. Closed Primaries and Broken Political Systems (12:15–13:27)

• Manchin’s Diagnosis: Manchin laments closed primaries, stating that most Americans are unrepresented in party nominations:
  • “You got a Democrat and a Republican business. It’s billions and billions of dollars. ... Think 160 million people voted in the last general election, 2024. Only 20 million people decided who you’re going to vote for. You can’t even get in.” (Joe Manchin, 12:15)
• Independent Voters: He argues for open primaries to give independents—the country’s largest voting bloc—a say.
• Systemic Change:
  • “We’ve got to change the system that allows the people truly to choose who they want.” (Joe Manchin, 13:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Let the person be who they are. ...People could shake your hand, look in your eyes and see your soul.” (Joe Manchin, 01:40)
• “I wanted to be Joe. …And she had a hard time with that.” (Joe Manchin, 03:12)
• “When you shut the government down, how many people are harmed by that down the chain?” (Joe Manchin, 06:42)
• “The Senate was designed for the minority to have a voice.” (Joe Manchin, 08:29)
• “White women keep giving elections to Donald Trump. …Misogyny knows no gender.” (Pod Save America Contributor, 11:49)
• “You got a Democrat and a Republican business. It’s billions and billions of dollars. ... Only 20 million people decided who you’re going to vote for.” (Joe Manchin, 12:15)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:25 – Think tank suggests Democrats avoid “woke” words
• 02:36 – Manchin's campus pronoun anecdote
• 04:59 – Is a government shutdown looming?
• 08:56 – Kamala Harris and the challenge of intersectional tickets
• 11:42 – Why is the U.S. so behind on female leaders?
• 12:15 – The stranglehold of closed primaries and party machinery

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Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, with a mix of humor and frustration. Manchin adopts a “plain-spoken outsider” persona, Wagner and the other panelists bring a mixture of political analysis, cynicism, and some dark humor about both parties’ failures and the state of democracy.

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Takeaways

• Authenticity vs. Messaging: Manchin stresses authenticity over carefully curated language.
• Political Alienation: The party system and "wokeness" debates are disconnected from what Manchin thinks most Americans care about.
• Shutdown Politics: Panel agrees shutdowns hurt ordinary people and represent a failure of political leadership.
• Inclusion: Serious doubts remain on America’s willingness to accept diverse leadership at the highest levels.
• Systemic Reform: Manchin advocates for more open primaries and warns of the negative effects of hyper-partisan party systems.

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For listeners seeking a glimpse into the current Democratic Party’s introspection and political strategizing, this Overtime delivers spirited debate, skepticism about institutional politics, and a call for resetting how Americans choose their political leaders.

Transcript

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[Bill Maher (Host)]

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Maher.

[Alex Wagner]

All right. He is a former independent senator from West Virginia and author of Dead Center Joe Manchin. And she's an MSNBC senior political analyst.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

And contributor to the Pod Save America podcast.

[Alex Wagner]

Alex Wagner okay, here's what the people want to know. The people, a center left Theatre think.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Tank, Third Way recently calculated, circulated a list of 45 words. Oh, I read this in phrases that want Democrats, they want Democrats to avoid using, including privilege, microaggression, unhoused person. Is this good advice for the party?

[Joe Manchin]

Not at all. Let the person be who they are. Now there's only a voter out there that can't tell you, I believe if you're real or not real. And I've always said in West Virginia growing up, people could shake your hand, look in your eyes and see your soul. It's all they if you are who you are, they'll know it. If you're in it for the right reason, they'll know it. And if you've got to basically explain to them that you're maybe not radicalized or a complete different far left that they don't understand, you know, the Democratic party has lost 160,000 registered Democrats since this November election. If they think the country is going more left, why is the Democrats losing their own people? They've got to come back to center, center left. Center right is where you were in the country. And all these types of things are saying this makes this person non electable or basically drives people away from the party. The thing that drives them away is we're not getting the character and the quality of the person we used to get.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

But I think the point here was.

[Alex Wagner]

That the words themselves.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Are connected to ideas that people.

[Joe Manchin]

I was asked, I gotta tell you this, I couldn't even believe it. Now, I come from West Virginia, okay. And it's a wonderful, beautiful state with great people. I'm getting interviewed at one of the college campuses, and the beautiful young person who did that, they says, now, how do you want to be addressed? I says, I'm Joe Manchin. And he says, no, he or it.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Or I says, what are your pronouns?

[Joe Manchin]

And I said, what are your pronouns? I say pronoun.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

It is not one of them. But yes, they.

[Joe Manchin]

She gave me that option.

[Alex Wagner]

They.

[Joe Manchin]

She gave me that option.

[Alex Wagner]

She didn't say it yet. She said, they. You want to be they.

[Joe Manchin]

I wanted to be Joe.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Right.

[Joe Manchin]

And I kept saying Joe. And she had a hard time with that.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Oh, really?

[Joe Manchin]

Yeah.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Well, Joe.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Well, maybe because you want to be a senator. Yeah.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Never to make big changes in life.

[Joe Manchin]

The interview didn't go that well after that.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Okay. All right.

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[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Is the government headed toward a shutdown? Oh, I'm serious.

[Joe Manchin]

It's ridiculous, isn't it? I'm going to say it's not. I think there's enough Democrats that will work with Republicans not to shut it down. They're just not talking. This whole thing's blown apart. And you know this. They said, we're going to use this and wedge this or wedge that. If you vote to shut down, you're basically telling the American people, I can't do my job.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

And what's funny, I can't.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Who runs the legislative branch? The Republican Party.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Yes.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

The idea that Democrats need. Listen, I understand there could be a political cost.

[Joe Manchin]

The Senate or the Congress. Listen, House. It's the Senate.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

It's going to go to the Senate. It passed the House.

[Joe Manchin]

It passed the House. But the Senate is basically what passed the House.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

The shutdown.

[Joe Manchin]

Well, they will. That's not a problem.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

The CR Is going to.

[Joe Manchin]

No, they passed it. The basically.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I just set the table first.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Before you say this. For years it was the Republicans who threatened to shut down the government when the government. And they did. Sometimes now it's the reverse. The Democrats. The reason why this is an issue is because some people in the Democratic Party are saying this is the only leverage we have against the president and the Congress, which is on his head. This is the only thing we can do, is shut down the government. Which is ironic a little because again, they were always.

[Joe Manchin]

They won't even talk to each other. Bill.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

I'm sorry, Alex.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

You see, there is a sense that the Democrats are up against a wall. They have nothing. This president has run roughshod against the Constitution. He does not care about bipartisanship. He doesn't care about arguably half the country. And people are saying, where the hell are the Democrats? Democrats have a series of talking points that haven't really resonated. You have a few singular Democrats who are out there fighting the good fight as joyful warriors. I'm not going to name names, but, you know, those in the legislative branch, where are they? If this is their only lever, shouldn't.

[Joe Manchin]

They pull it if that's what they're concerned about? When you shut the government down, how many people are harmed by that down the chain? I mean, so many different ways. How you get your service.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

That was always their argument.

[Joe Manchin]

That is the argument there. And I've told them.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

And does it really change it? It does, because at some point you.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Have to open it back up.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

You have to go back.

[Joe Manchin]

And whoever is harmed is going to hold that against. I know when Ted Cruz shut it down one year.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Yeah.

[Joe Manchin]

And we couldn't figure out. So, Ted, what are you proving here? We have to get. Let's get working things and they finally did. You know who came up and made the deal with. With McConnell? Senator McConnell from Kentucky was Ted Cruz. I mean, was Joe Biden. And the Democrats got mad. He says, don't you send that Joe Biden up here anymore to make a deal.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

I have a hard time imagine that Chuck Schumer is going to do a redux of what he did last time, given the blowback that he got from his own party.

[Joe Manchin]

But we'll. He got it from the left. He got it from the extreme.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

He's a Democrat.

[Joe Manchin]

He has to be the leader. If he's going to be the leader, he has to stand. Stand strong. This does not. Don't punish the country for not doing your job and sitting down, working with people. The whole thing about this, I don't know.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

What do you mean doing a redux of what he did?

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Chuck Schumer.

[Joe Manchin]

Yeah, he.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Chuck Schumer kept the government open by rallying Democrats and passing a budget. He did the right thing.

[Joe Manchin]

He did the right thing.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

He's not going to do, but got an extraordinary amount of blowback. And we're talking about. It's not just like. Let's just be clear. Yes, it is funding the government. It is also funding Trump's agenda, which there are masked agents pulling people off the streets. It's like the Handmaid's Tale down in the South. I mean, people are looking at a country that they don't recognize. Half the people feel like this is.

[Joe Manchin]

Shutting it down is not going to change.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

I understand. More power.

[Joe Manchin]

You give the president more discretion.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

That may be true.

[Joe Manchin]

More power.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

I'm luckily not a person that has to decide that. I just think that it's more complicated than just, you know, we don't like this and we're going to shut the government down. It's a tank.

[Joe Manchin]

The Senate was designed for the minority to have a voice. That's the thing. The difference between the House and the Senate is the house operates on 218 simple majority. The Senate was never designed that way. The Senate was designed to cool things down. It's going to come hot as a firecracker. Democrats, Republicans. Yeah, we haven't done too good at that. No, but you're talking about. The bottom line is this. Do your job. Talk to each other, get to know each other. They don't do that.

[Alex Wagner]

In her new book. In her new book, Kamala Harris said.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

She wanted to pick Pete Buttigieg as her vp, but didn't because she didn't think America was ready for a ticket with a black woman. And a gay man. Was she right?

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Yeah. I mean, I wish we were, but I don't. I mean, I think based on what we saw, that was probably the right calculation.

[Joe Manchin]

I was the person that kept saying, why don't you have a 30 day mini primary after Joe Biden dropped out? Find out if the cream will rise, find out what the new issues are and get rid of some of the old issues that you're dragging along with you that the Democrats have been saddled with. They don't want to do that. They don't.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

There are gay people in the Trump administration.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Yeah. And they're really standing up for.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

One of them is always fighting Scott Besant. Yeah. One of them is always like saying, I'm going to punch you in the fucking face.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Literally.

[Alex Wagner]

No.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

Really? Yeah. Okay. So.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

So there. Yeah.

[Joe Manchin]

Well, I'm just saying I know Scott. If he's a good person, I can't. I didn't hear that. I don't.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Pete Buttigieg is an extraordinary talent, extraordinarily talented politician, and maybe could run for the presidency himself one day. Maybe will. But I just think her calculation about where the country's at.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

His support among African Americans is zero.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

Well, so, you know, the strategy and the thinking was maybe not off.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

I'm just saying politics is complicated. Yeah, okay. People are complicated. I mean, I know the Republicans would say, well, if you had the right politics, we don't care if you're black. We've had Herman Cain run. We've had lots of people run. We have, you know, 20% of black men voted for Trump in the last election. And gay. We don't care about that either. I mean, Trump was in the news recently. They asked him about that and he's like, some people like spaghetti, some people like steak. That's why they have menus.

[Alex Wagner]

You kind of have to love that answer.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

So maybe it's just, I mean, this is what they used to say about Hillary. And people say, oh, you just hate Hillary and we're not ready for a woman president. And they would say, just not that one. We just don't like that one. You keep insisting. And I liked Hillary, I voted for her. I thought she'd be a fine president. But, you know, I can't look into them and say, you know, you don't think that Republicans would vote for a woman.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

I just think misogyny runs deeper and stronger than you'd like to imagine.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

I'm not.

[Joe Manchin]

I think the country is ready for a change, Bill. And if it has a good woman and a Good, strong woman. I think when every time I had to negotiate a bill and I had senators, female senators, I always got, I thought, a better bill. The compassion they brought to it, the understanding they brought to it was different. When a man thinks and they had so much more. So maybe.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

But then why are we so far behind most other countries in the world?

[Joe Manchin]

I don't know.

[Pod Save America Contributor]

White women keep giving elections to Donald Trump. So, you know, there's that reality, too. It's not just. We're talking about a binary here where it's men and women. Just misogyny knows no gender.

[Alex Wagner]

I'm just saying.

[MSNBC Senior Political Analyst]

But why is America. You're saying America is so misogynistic they wouldn't vote for a woman leader. And I'm saying Pakistan did. So why are we behind? And I think maybe 100 countries at least have had a woman leader.

[Joe Manchin]

My daughter Heather, when I said. When I. She said, dad, you know what kind of business you're in? I said, I'm not in business. I'm in ideology. And trying to do things right in public service. She says, no, you got two businesses. You got a Democrat, you have a Democrat and a Republican business. It's billions and billions of dollars. And they close it down. They control the primaries. They can basically control who you're voting for. Think 160 million people voted in the last general election, 2024. Only 20 million people decided who you're going to vote for. You can't even get in. The primary is closed. And now if you in a state, and I will say this about California, thank God California is an open state. You have to have 51%. They are basically as open as it gets. And some of the states, and most of the states are closing down. If you're 51% of the people registered, no party affiliation, like me, what you call independents, only 23% are Democrats. Only 26% are Republicans. Okay, 51%, no party affiliation. They got no representation. When you get to Washington, you got to pick a side. And that side says, you better be a good enough Democrat or good enough Republican. And if you're not, Bill, they'll come after you and primary you and get rid of you. We've got to change the system that allows the people truly to choose who they want.

[Alex Wagner]

All right, we'll leave it there. Thank you very much. We're a great audience. Appreciate it. We'll see you next week, God willing.

[Bill Maher (Host)]

Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO On Demand. For more information, log on to hbo.com.