Overtime – Episode #730: Ben McKenzie, Dan Jones, David French

Summary

Podcast Summary

Podcast: Real Time with Bill Maher – Overtime
Episode: #730: Ben McKenzie, Dan Jones, David French
Date: May 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This Overtime segment from Real Time with Bill Maher features actor and crypto skeptic Ben McKenzie, historian Dan Jones, and columnist/podcaster David French. The panel tackles hot-button topics: cryptocurrency’s risks and origins, the shifting language of “fascism,” reforms for the US Supreme Court, the real consequences of sanctions on Cuba, and the challenge of modern autocratic politics. The discussion is candid, witty, and critical, with each guest offering specialized insight into the intersection of history, law, politics, and tech.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Which Politicians Understand the Risks of Cryptocurrency?

• (01:05–01:32)
  Host Bill Maher asks Ben McKenzie which politicians grasp crypto’s risks.

  • David French responds:

    "There are a few. Elizabeth Warren understands the issues quite well. Senator Chris Van Hollen understands the issues quite well. And that's it." (01:32)

  Insight:
  The panel conveys that only a select few US politicians truly understand crypto’s complexities—highlighting a gap in legislative knowledge on fintech risks.

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2. Is the “Fascist” Label Accurate for Modern Right-Wing Leaders?

• (01:46–04:40)
  Maher directs a question to Dan Jones about Italian PM Giorgia Meloni.

  • Dan Jones argues against labeling Meloni as fascist:

    "I think that we're using this outdated language from the 20th century to describe a whole new style of politics... the reaching for the term fascist has become so easy and so lazy that anyone who expresses any opinion... fascist, fascist, fascist." (02:04)

  • Maher and Jones point out how these terms—“fascist,” “communist”—are increasingly historical and often used inaccurately to describe current populist or right-leaning leaders.
  • Jones:

    "We don't have like an adequate language for what's happening in the world at the moment. So we're reaching for this language out of time." (04:12)

  • Maher underscores the lack of clear definitions:

    "I've heard so many different definitions... I think we all kind of feel like the Supreme Court with pornography. I know it when I see it." (02:34)

  Insight:
  The term “fascist” gets thrown around too liberally, muddying debate and failing to capture today’s distinct forms of populist conservatism.

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3. Supreme Court Reforms: Term Limits and Process Fairness

• (04:40–07:58)
  Maher asks David French about needed reforms; Ben McKenzie weighs in:

  • Ben McKenzie:

    "I think we need term limits for Supreme Court justices... we're now nominating younger and younger and younger people with the hope that they can be in their robes for 30, maybe 40 years. That's an enormous amount of stagnation." (04:59) "What we have is an enormous amount of unpredictability... That level of unpredictability starts to drive voters crazy because every single presidential election, the Supreme Court is theoretically in play." (05:15) "If you do it with 18 year terms, that's plenty of Runway to be a justice." (05:39)

  • McKenzie also advocates returning to the filibuster for Supreme Court nominations to ensure deliberation and compromise (06:00).

  • Maher blames Mitch McConnell for upending SCOTUS norms:

    "Mitch McConnell completely changed the rules... Now it's kind of pot luck who dies when you're in office." (07:12)

  • David French (sarcastic):

    "Well, no, but Justice Roberts assures us that they're not political." (07:51)

  • Ben McKenzie defends some Supreme Court independence:

    "This is a court with six Republican nominated justices that struck down Trump's signature domestic policy initiative... So there is real independence there." (07:56)

  Insight:
  Predictability and impartiality in Supreme Court nominations are eroding, making high-stakes political battles inevitable. Structured terms and restored filibuster could, in theory, restore balance and trust.

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4. The Mystique of Satoshi Nakamoto & Crypto's "Cult" Status

• (10:08–11:35)
  Maher asks the panel about the identity of Satoshi Nakamoto (Bitcoin’s pseudonymous founder).

  • David French:

    "Satoshi is the cult like, leader of this thing, right? It's a pseudonym... the New York Times has... thinks it's this guy, Adam Back, who's a British cryptographer." (10:15–10:28)

  • Reveals an unexpected twist:

    "Adam Back, his company received funding from Jeffrey Epstein. That's in the Epstein file." (11:03)

  • The discussion highlights how Satoshi’s anonymity feeds crypto’s almost-religious mythos and skepticism regarding its foundations.

  Humor:
  Bill Maher and the panel riff on “cryptographer” vs. “cartographer,” lampooning the confusion and mystique: > "It would have been so much more interesting if he turned out to be a mapmaker." (10:53)

  Insight:
  Crypto’s origin story is clouded in secrecy and myth, which enhances both its fervor and suspicion among critics.

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5. Sanctions, Regime Change, and Human Impact: Cuba & US Policy

• (11:35–14:05)
  Bill Maher prompts reactions to recent US moves toward Cuba, specifically the impact of sanctions.

  • David French:

    "Right now it's killing the people though. Hospitals are being shut. They don't have power. Children are dying. I mean, this is horrific." (12:20)

  • Ben McKenzie:

    "It is very easy to inflict suffering with economic sanctions. It is very difficult to change a regime with economic sanctions. And we have seen this for 10, 20, 30, 40 years." (12:29) "My hatred for the Iranian regime or my loathing of communist Cuba does not overturn the Constitution... the Constitution requires the president before he's going to engage in aggressive military action or acts of war... to go to Congress..." (13:04)

  • Maher and McKenzie note how U.S. presidents have bypassed Congress for military actions, but stress the need to uphold Constitutional principles.

  • Dan Jones:

    "What we can say is, in the 2025 inaugural address, Trump said, people are gonna love me for all the wars I stopped and all the wars I didn't start." (13:53)

  Insight:
  Panelists criticize the blunt force of sanctions for often harming citizens, not regimes, and reiterate the need for constitutional government oversight when it comes to acts of war.

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6. Notable Quotes & Memorable Exchanges

• On Fascism’s Definition and Usage—Dan Jones:

  "The term has lost its meaning, and in using it, it's just become a sort of lazy term of generic abuse." (03:18)

• On Supreme Court Nominations—Ben McKenzie:

  "When I was coming up in the legal profession... people wanted to be justices and judges played their cards close to the vest. They were scrupulously fair... I don't think we're better off because lower court judges, law professors, et cetera, who want to be justices are sort of advertising their ideological street cred." (06:24)

• On Crypto and Myth—David French:

  "Crypto has... this myth of Satoshi has given it... real like, sort of cult like intensity." (11:02)

• Maher, on the unpredictability of Supreme Court picks:

  "...Now it's kind of pot luck who dies when you're in office." (07:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:05: Guest intros and who “gets” crypto risks
• 01:46–04:40: Fascism’s meaning and modern right-wing leaders
• 04:40–07:58: Supreme Court reforms: term limits and filibuster
• 10:08–11:35: Satoshi Nakamoto’s identity & crypto’s cult status
• 11:35–14:05: Cuba sanctions, human cost, and Constitutional war powers

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Tone & Takeaways

• The conversation is sharp, skeptical, and lightly comedic, with Maher playing provocateur.
• The panelists push for historical specificity, process reforms, and more rigorous ways to describe today’s political realities.
• Throughout, the show’s tone oscillates between cynical, critical, and intellectually engaged, embodying Maher’s blend of humor and gravitas.

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For listeners and non-listeners alike, this Overtime segment unpacks the blurred lines in today’s politics, crypto’s societal role, and the challenge of reforming old institutions for new times—never shying away from calling out lazy arguments and systemic flaws.

Transcript

[Bill Maher]

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[Bill Maher]

All right. He's an actor and the filmmaker of the new documentary Everyone Is Lying to youo for money. Ben McKenzie. He's a new York Times columnist, podcast host, and visiting professor at Lipscomb University. David French. And he's a historian and podcaster. New book coming up this fall is called Castles. Dan Jones. All right, all right, first one's for you, Ben. Which politician understands the risks of cryptocurrency? Ah, yes. Anyone on our side?

[David French]

There are a few. Elizabeth Warren understands the issues quite well. Senator Chris Van Hollen understands the issues quite well. And that's it.

[Bill Maher]

All right, for Dan. Do you think it's correct or incorrect to call right wing leaders like Giorgia Meloni fascist? She's the head person in Italy.

[Dan Jones]

No, I mean, I think that.

[Bill Maher]

You think she's a fascist.

[Dan Jones]

No, I don't think she's a fascist.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, okay.

[Dan Jones]

I think that we're using this outdated language from the 20th century to describe a whole new style of politics. And I think that in fact, the reaching for the term fascist has become so easy and so lazy that anyone who expresses any opinion pretty much at all, fascist, fascist, fascist. Let's say that communist is also used in a relatively similar way. And these terms are historical terms that were pretty specific to the 1930s. In the case of fascism, I think

[Bill Maher]

it's easier to define communism than it is fascism. Fascism. I've heard so many different definitions and I think we all kind of feel like the Supreme Court with pornography. I know it when I see it. But it's hard to kind of. Is it the mixing of corporate power with military power? You know, what is it exactly? But you know what, when you see it, I've been saying it about Trump for years that, you know, like there are things that look like they're heading toward autocracy or fascism, but you know, honestly, in a lot of them, we haven't gotten there.

[Dan Jones]

Yeah, Well, I mean, 1930s fascism is fairly easy to define. It's militarism, it's nationalism, it's control of the press. I mean, it's a lot of things

[Bill Maher]

that, a lot of things that are brewing now.

[Dan Jones]

But the trouble is by using that term and because it's now, I mean, you get things like eco fascism. What the fuck is eco fascism? Like, I'm gonna ye wind farms everywhere. Come on. So the term has lost its meaning, and in using it, it's just become a sort of lazy term of generic abuse.

[Bill Maher]

And I think in the case of Meloni in Italy, I think her, you know, her. Was it her father? Her grandfather I think was a fascist. But you know, you could say about the Democratic Party, they're the ones who fought for slavery. Okay? So, I mean, everybody's got. If you go back in time, it doesn't matter. What are you now? I mean, I'm not even sure she's that much of right winger. She seems to be liked by the other people in the eu. They don't seem to treat her like she's some sort of crazy lady.

[Dan Jones]

I mean, it overlaps now with populist in Europe. So, I mean, people would call Nigel Farage in the UK a fascist. Well, undoubtedly he's a populist and he's an old fashioned conservative and he has views on immigration that some people would say are harsher than they would like. But that is not the same as saying he's, for example, Oswald Mosley. I mean, there's a profound difference. And some of it, I think, comes down to a failure to be able to define the politics of our own. We don't have like an adequate language for what's happening in the world at the moment. So we're reaching for this language out of time, which is in a lot of cases, the language of the mid 20th century.

[Bill Maher]

Okay, this is for you, David. Are there any reforms you would like to see implemented on the Supreme Court?

[Ben McKenzie]

Oh, how much time do you have? I'll start with one. I think we need term limits for Supreme Court justices.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah.

[Ben McKenzie]

And here's why. The system is becoming broken in the sense that we're now nominating younger and younger and younger people with the hope that they can be in their robes for 30, maybe 40 years. That's an enormous amount of stagnation. Number two, what we have is an enormous amount of unpredictability. So you don't know in any given presidency, are they going to be nominating a Supreme Court justice, Are they going to be nominating three? You know, we had one four year term with Biden, he had one. We had a four year term with Trump, he had three nominations. That level of unpredictability starts to drive voters crazy because every single presidential election, the Supreme Court is theoretically in play. If you do it with 18 year terms, that's plenty of Runway to be a justice.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Ben McKenzie]

And that would mean you'd have two election or two nominations per four year term. Year, one year, three. It's very predictable. The other thing that I would like to do, I want to get back the filibuster on Supreme Court justices. That is not a Supreme Court reform, it's a Senate reform. But one of the problems that we have now, Bill, is if you look out at the universe of judges who are eligible to be Supreme Court justices, what they're doing now is a lot of auditioning. They're writing opinions, expressing very strong opinions and concurrences and dissents that are all sending messages to senators. Nominate me. I'm strong. I'm strong. I'm strong. When I was coming up in the legal profession, the people wanted to be justices and judges played their cards close to the vest. They were scrupulously fair, they were scrupulously unbiased in their public statements. I don't think it's an advance. I don't think it's. I don't think we're better off because lower court judges, law professors, et cetera, who want to be justices are sort of advertising their ideological street cred. I think that's a bad way to do this. So those are two big ones. Bring back the filibuster so that you actually have to have deliberation and compromise and term limit so that the American people know how long justices are serving when they're getting new justices. And not every single presidential election, it goes crazy.

[Bill Maher]

Besides the fact that you're right, they're nominating younger and younger people. I mean, I could see a funny sketch where there's a nine year old out there. But you left out the other big thing, why it's broken is that Mitch McConnell changed the rules. Mitch McConnell completely changed the rules. I mean, the rule was always you get to pick. Now it's kind of pot luck who dies when you're in office. But if they do die, like Justice Scalia did, you get to pick unless you're a black president or a Democratic president, whatever reasoning they were using at the time. And that, to me, just threw a wrench in the whole thing. It said, this is just a completely broken system now.

[David French]

Well, no, but Justice Roberts assures us that they're not political.

[Bill Maher]

Okay.

[David French]

They're not actors.

[Ben McKenzie]

Let me defend the court for a minute. Look, this is a court that's.

[Bill Maher]

You can defend the Mitch McConnell thing.

[Ben McKenzie]

No, no, no. I'm defending the Supreme Court. This is a court with six Republican nominated justices that struck down Trump's signature domestic policy initiative that has blocked him from deploying the United States.

[Bill Maher]

Yeah, I agree with that. Yes.

[Ben McKenzie]

And so there is real independence there.

[Bill Maher]

But I'm just saying that changed the whole game. I mean, it was a whole year before an election. And that was the excuse they used. We can't do it this close. That was never the rule before somebody died. Obama had a pick and they. And it was going to be Merrick Garland. And it would have been better if he was on the court because he did such a shit job as the attorney general. Okay, Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry. This Memorial Day at Lowe's, save $80 on a Char Broil performance. Series 4 burner gas grill. Now just $199 plus get up to 40 off. Select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes and food fresh. Having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's, valid through 527, while supplies last selection varies by location. See associate or lowes.com for details.

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[Bill Maher]

Does the panel have any thoughts on who Satoshi Nakamoto is? That's a pseudonym for the founder of Bitcoin.

[David French]

I'm the resident crypto guy. Right. So Satoshi is the cult like, leader of this thing, right? It's a suit pseudonym.

[Bill Maher]

Well, he's the guy who invented it. It didn't exist until he picked it out of thin air. Right, right, right.

[David French]

And the New York Times has done some reporting on this. They think it's this guy, Adam Back, who's a British cryptographer. I don't know if they've proved it,

[Bill Maher]

but here's a cryptographer. Yeah. A mapmaker.

[David French]

No.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, that's something different. Huh? What's a mapmaker? You would know, Dan.

[Ben McKenzie]

Cartologist.

[Bill Maher]

Cartographer.

[Ben McKenzie]

I said cartographer. It would have been so much more interesting.

[Bill Maher]

So much more interesting. And he turned out to be a mapmaker.

[David French]

One thing that's interesting about Adam. So crypto has. Has this myth of Satoshi has given it.

[Bill Maher]

Yes.

[David French]

Real like, sort of cult like intensity. But Adam Back, his company received funding from Jeffrey Epstein. That's in the Epstein file.

[Bill Maher]

What's his company? What's he doing?

[David French]

Lock Stream. It's a crypto company. It's a crypto.

[Bill Maher]

Oh, I see.

[David French]

I mean, that's what we're talking about, right? When I talk about crime, it's very abstract.

[Bill Maher]

How can he have a crypto company if he's the one who invented it?

[David French]

Well, you know. Yes. I mean, he has. There's a side hustle.

[Bill Maher]

Could there be a company before he made it up? It's all so stupid.

[David French]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Bill Maher]

What's the panel's reaction to CIA Director John Ratcliffe visiting Raul Castro on Thursday? Well, Cuba. I mean, this is a tough one. Cuba. We took over Venezuela. Okay. The bank shot from that was. Maybe we can get Cuba, too, because Cuba got a lot of its oil from Venezuela. We cut that off trying to destroy this regime. And it is a horrible regime. It's a little like when you have a fever. Like the fever is a good thing. It's there to kill the germs in your body. It's roasting them to death. But if you let it get too high, it could kill you, you know, do we let the fever of no oil kill the regime, or is it going to kill the people?

[David French]

Right now it's killing the people, though. Right now. It's absolutely. I mean, Hospitals are being shut. They don't have power. Children are dying. I mean, this is horrific.

[Ben McKenzie]

It is very easy to.

[Bill Maher]

It wasn't good before.

[Ben McKenzie]

No. But it is very easy to inflict suffering with economic sanctions. It is very difficult to change a regime with economic sanctions. And we have seen this for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. And the other thing I want to say is I am. I take a back seat to no one in my loathing, for example, of the Iranian regime. The Iranian regime was responsible for killing men I served with in Iraq. I have no love for that Iranian regime. But my hatred for the Iranian regime or my loathing of communist Cuba does not overturn the Constitution of the United States.

[Bill Maher]

Right.

[Ben McKenzie]

And the Constitution requires the president before he's going to engage in aggressive military action or acts of war. And blockades are acts of war, to go to Congress to make a case to the American.

[Bill Maher]

But we haven't done that. Nobody's done that for generations.

[Ben McKenzie]

No, we've done that.

[Bill Maher]

You can't lay that all on this.

[Ben McKenzie]

No, I'm not, but we had. George W. Bush went to Congress for Iraq even when his own Department of Justice told him he didn't have to. His dad went to Congress for Desert Storm. This is not ancient history.

[Bill Maher]

And he got kind of a blank check. It wasn't really to go to war. It was like, if you have to do something, go ahead, do it. I mean, Vietnam was a police going

[Ben McKenzie]

back to terrible police action.

[Bill Maher]

I mean, you use a different word, and they just do what they want to do.

[Ben McKenzie]

But we can't just say, well, because past presidents have fumbled the ball and defied the Constitution, that it just doesn't matter.

[Bill Maher]

No, I agree.

[Dan Jones]

Well, what we can say is, in the 2025 inaugural address, Trump said, people are gonna love me for all the wars I stopped and all the wars I didn't start. I mean, and here we have Venezuela, Iran.

[Bill Maher]

Well, this one was supposed to be short. Supposed to be hit it and quit it. But, you know, wars are like relationships. Easy to get in, hard to get out, you know? All right, we'll cut it off there. Thank you very much.

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[Ben McKenzie]

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