Overtime – Episode #731: Neil deGrasse Tyson, Kevin McCarthy, Katy Tur

Summary

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Real Time with Bill Maher: Overtime – Episode #731

Guests: Neil deGrasse Tyson, Kevin McCarthy, Katy Tur
Date: June 2, 2026
Episode Theme:
The panel discusses the value of risk in innovation—particularly in space exploration—public vs. private investment, political polarization, the possibility of regime change and rebuilding in Iran, and the role of scientific discovery in society.

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Main Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Reality (and Value) of Failure: Rocket Science, Innovation, and Public vs. Private Sector

[01:20–04:07]

• A Blue Origin rocket exploded; the panel discusses how failure is intrinsic to technological advancement.
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: “If you never fail, that is evidence you are not on the frontier.” (01:55)
  • Kevin McCarthy: Echoes the idea, pointing to the private sector’s faster turnaround: “If NASA did, it they'd go study it for a year. ...Private sector gets back in it and does it again. That's why private space is doing better.” (02:30)
• The conversation shifts to government investment in new technologies, using Solyndra and Tesla as contrasting examples.
  • Kevin McCarthy: “Solyndra was a dumb investment. ...You give them the incentive and the companies will rise up. Some will fall off, but the most efficient ones will rise better.” (03:09, 03:37)
• Notable Quote:
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: “When an engineer says a rocket launch that blows up, they say it is an experiment rich in data.” (02:37)

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2. Politics, Governance, and the "Top Two" System

[04:07–05:40]

• The possibility of California electing a Republican governor is seen as slim.
• Comparison to Massachusetts and Maryland, where blue states have had popular Republican governors.
  • Kevin McCarthy: “Structure dictates behaviors. ...The top two system has failed us. ...Right now I don't believe any of those candidates running for governor are qualified to be governor.” (04:24–04:31)
• McCarthy calls for election reform, favoring systems that allow parties a greater role in candidate selection (not fully closed primaries).
  • McCarthy: “You could have the small open primary, but the independents can join... but Republicans get to pick the nominee.” (05:28)

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3. Hypotheticals: First Contact with Aliens

[05:40–07:25]

• Who should represent humanity in the case of first alien contact?
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: “Math is a language of the universe. You want to commune with the cosmos, you become fluent in math... you got to at least have someone who's fluent in math.” (06:19)
  • Tyson advocates for an institutional approach: “I would take them immediately to the National Academy of Sciences...and then we will do right by that encounter.” (06:50)
• Notable Quote:
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: “If you want to commune with the cosmos, you become fluent in math.” (06:19)

---

4. The Prospect of Rebuilding Iran: War, Regime Change, and Foreign Policy

[09:06–11:26]

• A speculative proposal for a $300 billion fund to rebuild Iran as a way to end hostilities. The panel expresses skepticism, comparing it to flawed Middle Eastern policy of the past.
  • Katie Tur: “Because the [Strait] of Hormuz is closed and we need it open. That's the only way to get it done.” (09:45)
  • Kevin McCarthy: “I don't see Congress authorizing the money, and I don't see this administration giving them that money. ...How this ends is very important for the world. The uranium cannot be there, and they cannot control the open waters.” (09:50)

On Trump and U.S. Options in Iran

• Kevin McCarthy: “It's a greater threat to threaten and use military force than when you're already in it.” (10:12)
• Panel agrees "boots on the ground" is off the table, and cites the importance of actually verifying the destruction of Iran’s uranium enrichment capabilities.
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: “If you purify uranium above certain levels, it's weapons grade and no one should lose sight of that fact.” (11:15)

---

5. Is Spending on Moon Missions Worthwhile?

[11:26–14:52]

• The panel delves into the value of government-funded space exploration (like Artemis), arguing for both tangible and intangible returns.
  • Neil deGrasse Tyson: Raises historical context: “We're in the centennial decade of the discovery of quantum physics... at the time you would have said, 'Why are you studying that?'” (11:40)
  • Connects basic research to practical impacts: “My physics professor...discovered a new phenomenon...became the founding principle of the Magnetic Resonance Imager [MRI]...discovered by a physicist who had no interest in medicine.” (12:41–13:10)
  • “This is what made America great, is that we funded curiosity driven research and that had a pathway through creative engineers right directly into our economy.” (13:24)
  • Warns against taking scientific investment for granted: “Don't take it for granted that we live in this country and the investments in science...that has occurred over the century.” (14:01)
• Kevin McCarthy: “Think about how many young kids got so excited when they saw that's Artemis go around the moon.” (14:40)
• Tyson adds: “I don't think anyone ever gave a ticker tape parade to a robot...there's something about the human element of discovery that's been with our civilization from the beginning...” (14:52)

---

6. The Human Element in Science, Discovery, and National Unity

[14:52–15:55]

• Katie Tur: Notes the ability of space exploration to unite the country across partisan lines.
  • “There was also an amazing coming together of people in this country to watch the launch. They were invested and it was not partisan.” (15:24)
• Neil deGrasse Tyson: “If aliens can bring us together and the moon brings us together, space is our frontier on that.” (15:35)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Neil deGrasse Tyson [01:55]: “If you never fail, that is evidence you are not on the frontier.”
• Neil deGrasse Tyson [02:37]: “A rocket launch that blows up...is an experiment rich in data.”
• Kevin McCarthy [03:37]: “You give them the incentive and the companies will rise up. Some will fall off, but the most efficient ones will rise better.”
• Neil deGrasse Tyson [06:19]: “Math is a language of the universe. …You want to commune with the cosmos, you become fluent in math.”
• Neil deGrasse Tyson [13:24]: “This is what made America great, is that we funded curiosity driven research... right directly into our economy.”
• Neil deGrasse Tyson [14:52]: "I don't think anyone ever gave a ticker tape parade to a robot. ...There's something about the human element of discovery that's been with our civilization from the beginning..."
• Katie Tur [15:24]: “There was an amazing coming together of people in this country to watch the launch. ...it was not partisan.”

---

Important Timestamps & Segments

• 01:20–04:07: Discussion on risk/failure in rockets and innovation, public vs. private investment
• 04:07–05:40: Top-two election system and political dynamics
• 05:40–07:25: Hypothetical alien first contact—science, math, and diplomacy
• 09:06–11:26: Iran, regime change, U.S. strategy in the Middle East
• 11:26–14:52: Value of moon missions, government investment in science, private enterprise
• 14:52–15:55: National unity via space exploration

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Summary Tone

The conversation is lively, pragmatic, and sprinkled with humor, with each speaker contributing personal asides and broader historical context. Tyson often grounds the discussion in scientific perspective and history, McCarthy brings political and legislative insights, and Tur voices practical, media-centric counterpoints.

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This episode highlights how risk, failure, and basic research fuel innovation, and the way exploration (whether terrestrial or cosmic) remains a powerful unifying and inspiring force.

Transcript

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[Bill Maher]

an HBO podcast from the HBO late night series Real Time with Bill Maher.

[Moderator]

He is an astrophysicist and author of Take Me to youo Leader Neil DeGrasse Pisces. He served as the 55th speaker of the House. Kevin McCarthy and she anchors Katie Turr Reports on Ms. Now. Katie Tur,

[Panelist 1]

all right, first one is for you. Very topical. Again, this happened last night. A rocket belonging to Jeff Bezos blue origin exploded on the launch pad. How much failure should we expect when it comes to rocket development? I would guess a lot and hopefully not when the people are in it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. Yes. And so I don't know what next gen that rocket was. If it was an old gen, it should not have blown up. And some heads will roll. But if he's experimenting with something new, some new design, you expect some failure. And if you never fail, that is evidence you are not on the frontier.

[Panelist 1]

Right? Absolutely. Same in the arts.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh yes, absolutely. Yes.

[Panelist 1]

But the first thing I thought was, is this the same rocket that Katy Perry was in?

[Moderator]

No, I'm not, I'm not being facetious

[Panelist 1]

about it, but like, you know, it's not.

[Kevin McCarthy]

Yeah, But I mean, SpaceX had the same thing. The question we had, NASA had the same thing. The answer is that you don't give up, that you, you learn from each one. I'm sure they learned quite a few things from that and they corrected on the next one.

[Katie Tur]

And the beauty of it is that it's a private company so they have the money to spend. Unlike NASA, you can't blow that amount of cash.

[Kevin McCarthy]

If NASA did, it they'd go study it for a year. Why? Private sector gets back in it and does it again. That's why private space is doing better.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

But when an engineer says a rocket launch that blows up, they say it is an experiment rich in data.

[Moderator]

That's SpaceX looking on the bright side.

[Kevin McCarthy]

SpaceX just had their launch and they literally blew it up after they calculated all the data they wanted.

[Panelist 1]

Yeah, but you guys used to always be up Obama on the fact that he was like picking winners and losers because they were, you know, Solyndra. Remember Solyndra? It was one of your big scandals for it was dumb to do that or Solyndra was dumb.

[Kevin McCarthy]

Solyndra was a dumb investment.

[Panelist 1]

But when you're in these new fields, some of them aren't going to work out.

[Kevin McCarthy]

That's true. And you should accept that.

[Panelist 1]

Yeah, Tesla did work out.

[Kevin McCarthy]

Exactly.

[Panelist 1]

So why were you so critical about Solyndra? Wasn't that expected that some of them would work and some of them wouldn't, but it was worth the effort to try to bring us into the green energy era.

[Kevin McCarthy]

I agree from that perspective, but.

[Panelist 1]

Next question.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Because he's out of office.

[Moderator]

He's out of office.

[Kevin McCarthy]

I'm not dying.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I'm not dying. I'm not dying.

[Kevin McCarthy]

No, but you would have known. Slender didn't work. But I tell you this, when I was in office, I authored the Space act and they didn't want to fund Elon and they were funding and buying them from Russia. It was really McCain and I who forced us to do that, knowing it would cost more at the beginning. But long term, we could build it in America then. So you do want to take risks. But there's a better way to do it than government directly funding. You give them the incentive and the companies will rise up. Some will fall off, but the most efficient ones will rise better.

[Panelist 1]

All right, so, Kevin, what are the chances of California electing a Republican governor?

[Kevin McCarthy]

Very slim.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Exactly. Massachusetts did it many times. You can't get bluer than Massachusetts.

[Moderator]

Okay.

[Kevin McCarthy]

You know why?

[Panelist 1]

And Maryland.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So it's not an impossible.

[Kevin McCarthy]

And you know, this year as well. Structure dictates behaviors.

[Katie Tur]

Have been elected here for governor a long time ago.

[Panelist 1]

Yeah.

[Kevin McCarthy]

The top two systems. The top two system has failed us. Yeah, but that was. The top two system has failed us. Right now I don't believe any of those candidates running for governor are qualified to be governor. Okay. I think we're losing on both spectrums. Massachusetts did it. And Baker was the most popular one.

[Panelist 1]

Yes. And Maryland.

[Kevin McCarthy]

Yes.

[Panelist 1]

Blue states with Republican governors are the most popular because they're in a blue state. So they can't be Ken Paxton.

[Kevin McCarthy]

You know what happened.

[Panelist 1]

But they're not crazy woke.

[Kevin McCarthy]

You'd get a socially moderate, fiscally conservative Republican and the state would like a check and balance, and you could no longer do that.

[Panelist 1]

Why can't the whole country do this?

[Kevin McCarthy]

Because we have a system that stops us from doing it in the top two. If we had a system that each party put out their very best, they would have better candidates and we'd have a better choice.

[Panelist 1]

How could we get there?

[Kevin McCarthy]

We have to change it.

[Panelist 1]

How?

[Kevin McCarthy]

Well, we can do it with a referendum. We can make it an initiative and have the people vote on it.

[Katie Tur]

So you want to go back to a closed primary is what you're saying?

[Kevin McCarthy]

I'm not saying closed primary. I'm saying letting the party select. You could have the small open primary, but the independents can join Republicans or Democrats. Their choice, but Republicans get to pick the nominee.

[Panelist 1]

Okay, Neil, if first contact happened tomorrow, who would you trust most to serve as humanity's ambassador? Probably you.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Well,

[Moderator]

It's gotta be somebody.

[Panelist 1]

You say the universal language is math.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yes.

[Panelist 1]

By the way, this is what Mr. Politi told me in high school. He said that's the universal language.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Was he a teacher of yours or some other person in your life?

[Panelist 1]

He was my priest.

[Moderator]

I don't want to tell you what happened next.

[Panelist 1]

Anyway, no, he was my math teacher. But it would have to be someone who speaks math. You speak math? I don't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah, I do speak math. And so math is a language of the universe. You want to commune with the cosmos, you become fluent in math, an alien comes. They would not have come here without some understanding of math. That is a certainty. So whoever's in the room when it happens, you got to at least have someone who's fluent in math. I don't mind. There's some politicians that want to jump in on this, the ones that are more diplomatic, because maybe there's a tense negotiating point that you got to bring in a diplomat to solve.

[Katie Tur]

That's Steve Woodcoff.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

So I just have no experience. So it would definitely be the scientist up front, what I would do. It's not an individual I would be delighted to have a first encounter. But I take them immediately to the National Academy of Sciences, and then we have the biologists, the chemists, the engineers, and then we will do right by that encounter. National Academy of Sciences written into law by a Republican president.

[Moderator]

That's right.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It was Abraham Lincoln.

[Panelist 1]

Okay, what Is the panel.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Think I'm giving a shout out across the aisle here. I got a leak. Okay.

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

That's a stroopwafel, a Dutch waffle with

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[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Is it sweet?

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[Moderator]

does the panel think of the idea

[Panelist 1]

that was put out today? That maybe the Iran war will end because there's a talk of a $300 billion rebuilding fund. In other words, we're going to rebuild Iran. We're going to. We're gonna make it into, like, you know, remember Gaza was gonna be okay. What do you think now? It sounds a little like when Obama gave Iran money and that was like, the worst thing that could ever happen.

[Katie Tur]

But no, this is totally gonna be different.

[Panelist 1]

Okay.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah.

[Panelist 1]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

What's that old story? The mouse that roared.

[Panelist 1]

But wouldn't there. Yes. Wouldn't there have to be regime change first? You would think so. Why are we even talking about giving the money until we know that the people.

[Katie Tur]

Because the street of Hormuz is closed and we need it open. That's the only way to get it done.

[Panelist 1]

I see.

[Kevin McCarthy]

I don't see Congress authorizing the money, and I don't see this administration giving them that money. So at the end of the day, how this ends is very important for the world. The uranium cannot be there, and they cannot control the open waters. That's. That's how it has to end.

[Katie Tur]

Can Donald Trump get there?

[Kevin McCarthy]

I believe so. How.

[Panelist 1]

How? I Mean, we've already played all the cards.

[Kevin McCarthy]

You know, it's easier to get in war, to get out. It's a greater threat to threat and use military force than when you're already in it. Look, I think at the end of the day, Iran has some severe pressure on their point, too. But this is a regime that likes to kill their own people. They'll sit and wait it out and they'll probably wait till. Try to wait until after the election. I like the idea of the other countries joining the Abraham Accords and that this becomes a bigger solution than just the straight.

[Moderator]

Kevin, I was sympathetic to the idea.

[Katie Tur]

I know, I know.

[Panelist 1]

But, you know, I just feel like we went into Iraq and Iran won that war and every time we go there, it seems like Iran wins the war.

[Katie Tur]

Do you think that he has another option other than boots on the ground if he wants to meet those goals?

[Panelist 1]

Yeah, I don't see what the other option is. And we don't want to do that. And plainly he doesn't want to do that.

[Kevin McCarthy]

I don't think he ever will do that. That's a much different battle.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And do we have evidence that we've actually destroyed the capacity to purify uranium? Because that was the whole point.

[Panelist 1]

No, we don't.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

The whole exercise. And everybody's now focusing on the straits and oil prices and the like. But if you purify uranium above certain levels, it's weapons grade and no one should lose sight of that fact.

[Panelist 1]

All right. You don't want to end until you have that final question for you. Do you think missions to the moon like Artemis are worth the money the government spends on them? I saw a picture in the paper yesterday, a diagram of what it's going to look like when we have a base on the moon.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Yeah. So, yes. Is it worth. If it's exploration, you're doing something that's never been done before, you are not in a position to judge the value of that to our future. Do you realize we're in the centennial decade of the discovery of quantum physics? And at the time you would have said, why are you studying that? I'm a carpenter. I got wood atoms. That's all I care about. And we learned about how atoms work and molecules. And it is the foundation of this creation, storage and retrieval of digital information. It is 40% of the world economy exploited by knowing what the quantum is and how and why it works. So that's. If you were around back then, would you say, don't study this, this is a waste of money. Go build another railroad or go build something else. Somebody's gotta be on the frontier. Cause that's what pulls civilization into the future.

[Moderator]

So

[Panelist 1]

you say quantum mechanics.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

This is an example. Here's an example.

[Panelist 1]

Okay, but like connect that to somebody like a layman like me who like how did that affect my life? What did that bring to you?

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

I have a better example. My physics professor at college, he studied molecules in space and he discovered a new phenomenon where the nucleus responded to electromagnetic fields. And he got a Nobel Prize for it. Shared a Nobel Prize. This became the founding principle of the Magnetic Resonance Imager.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Ah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's based on a principle of physics discovered by a physicist who had no interest in medicine. It was a frontier.

[Panelist 1]

MRIs.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

It's an MRI. In fact it's technically, it's an NMRI Nuclear Magnetic Resonance Imager. But that's one of the two N words you're not supposed to use. So they took away the nuclear. Because you're not going to go into cavity that this is the nuclear. They're not going to do that. So they took away the word mri. This is an example of a frontier. And you don't, you can't pre select that. So you have to. This is what made America great, is that we funded curiosity driven research and that had a pathway through creative engineers right directly into our economy. And so our economy is the envy of the world. You know, I've heard a guy say this, that if England, the UK were a state of the United States, it'd be 51st. 51st in GDP per capita.

[Panelist 1]

Yeah.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

Oh my gosh. Don't take it for granted that we live in this country and the investments in science. Right, that has occurred over the century.

[Kevin McCarthy]

But also private space is doing so much. And look where you live now too. If you want to have the Internet and you're sitting in Ukraine, thank Elon Musk for that. I mean a lot of it.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

American Airlines, so yes. So private enterprise gets you so far. But there's the research that does not feed the quarterly report or the annual report. The government invests in that, that creates the industries, that the government then draws tax based funding.

[Kevin McCarthy]

Think about how many young kids got so excited when they saw that's Artemis go around the moon.

[Katie Tur]

Oh yeah, yeah.

[Kevin McCarthy]

The new young astronauts. And what did they go back in class and study? I mean I think the return on investment is more than we'll ever spend on.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And, and while if we were only going to do science, I would say yes, just send robots. But when you come back and describe what the far side of the moon looked like. You realize, I don't think anyone ever gave a ticker tape parade to a robot. I don't think anyone ever named a high school or medical school after a robot. There's something about the human element of discovery that's been with our civilization from the beginning that we cherish the accounts of what people have for seeing something that no one has seen before.

[Katie Tur]

There was also an amazing coming together of people in this country to watch the launch. They were invested and it was not partisan. Journey and it was not partisan.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

And you know what else wasn't part

[Katie Tur]

of and they launched the landing as well. They were rooting for him.

[Neil deGrasse Tyson]

When Congress was listening to the whistleblowers and the accounts of aliens in the back closet, it was Republicans and Democrats just sitting there together, you know. And I said, wow, I haven't seen this. I haven't seen this. So if aliens can bring us together and the moon brings us together, space is our frontier on that.

[Moderator]

Thank you very much.

[Bill Maher]

Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10 or watch him anytime on HBO on Demand. For more information, log on to hbo.com

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