Inside 'Kona Blue,' the alleged Lockheed-to-DHS UFO transfer | Reality Check

Summary

Reality Check with Ross Coulthart

Episode: Inside 'Kona Blue,' the Alleged Lockheed-to-DHS UFO Transfer

Original Air Date: August 4, 2026

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Brief Overview

In this gripping episode, Ross Coulthart engages with Sam—an informed observer and researcher on UAP (Unidentified Aerial Phenomena) and legacy government programs—delving into the labyrinthine world of UFO legacy programs, controlled disclosure efforts, and the mysterious “Kona Blue” program. The conversation covers the web of secrecy shrouding UFO research, infighting over disclosure within U.S. government circles, and disturbing allegations concerning the suppression of witnesses, use of exotic technology, and tragic collateral damage.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Lou Elizondo, Controlled Disclosure, and Project Forum

• Elizondo’s Role & Knowledge:
  • Ross contemplates Lou Elizondo acting as “UFO czar” and his deep familiarity with legacy UFO programs.
  • “Assuming it is Lou Elizondo who’s appointed...He does have detailed knowledge of the legacy program and is in a position to ask questions.” (Ross, 00:37)
• Controlled Narrative via Immaculate Constellation and Project Forum:
  • Sam introduces the “Immaculate Constellation” activity, which vacuumed multi-domain intelligence on UAPs but has not been publicly disclosed.
  • Controlled drip-feeding of data (e.g., the Tic Tac footage) may have been a deliberate effort to shape public understanding while restricting more sensitive revelations (e.g., “reproduction vehicles”).
    • “Tom DeLonge...was being prepared for a controlled disclosure narrative where they would limit what was being revealed.” (Ross, 03:30)
  • Sam discusses “Project Forum,” an initiative to leverage media figures and celebrities (like Tom DeLonge) to craft and promote disclosure narratives.
    • “I do fear that part of the AATIP partially harnessed remnants of that Project Forum...manifest with Tom DeLonge’s TTSA.” (Sam, 04:26)

2. Kona Blue: The Attempted Lockheed-to-DHS Technology Transfer

• What Was Kona Blue?
  • Kona Blue was a Department of Homeland Security prospective Special Access Program (SAP), utilized as a vehicle for Lockheed Martin to transfer UAP-derived materials to government custody (OSAP).
    • “Kona Blue was a Technology Transfer Agreement vehicle for Lockheed Martin...to divest specific UFO materials to the OSAP.” (Sam, 04:58)
• CIA Interference:
  • Allegations that when Lockheed attempted to pass materials via DHS (seen as a “clean” intermediary), CIA officials intervened and stopped the transfer.
    • “The agency swooped in, said, ‘no, you are not doing this,’ and put the kibosh on said transfer.” (Sam, 05:31)
• Key Individuals:
  • Jim Ryder (Lockheed VP, now deceased), Mary Sturtevant (Lockheed/CIA), and Glenn Gaffney (CIA) are central figures. Sam publicly calls on Christopher Mellon to pursue their knowledge.
    • “I would make a...public outcry to Chris Mellon to reach out to Mary Sturtevant...” (Sam, 06:54)

3. Schisms, Disclosure Factions & Ongoing Secrecy

• Two Camps in Disclosure:
  • The “Full Monty” transparency pushers (ex: David Grusch), vs. controlled, partial disclosure advocates.
  • “There is a schism...between the full monty advocates...and the controlled disclosure advocates who are trying to contain what they think is valuable...” (Ross, 12:13)
  • Sam expresses hope for full transparency but acknowledges current programs are “fractured” and lack central direction.
    • “The fractured legacy program structure is like a chicken with its head cut off. There’s no centralized direction.” (Sam, 12:41)
• National Security vs. Public Right to Know:
  • Ross challenges the necessity for secrecy; Sam notes secrecy has become “out of control,” partly due to safeguarding advancements from adversaries, but also due to entrenched program culture.
    • “The secrecy has gotten so out of control.”* (Sam, 17:37)
• Bypassing Congressional Oversight:
  • Special institutions (FFRDCs, UARCs, GOCOs) operate with government funding but outside standard oversight, further enabling secrecy.
    • “You can keep program materials within U.S. government grasp, but free from things like FOIA or traditional audits.” (Sam, 18:48)

4. Technological Achievements and Alleged Replication

• Earth-Based Replication of UAP Tech:
  • Sam claims the U.S. has likely replicated in-planet flight capabilities (such as “triangles” and “tic tacs”) and achieved limited anti-gravity breakthroughs.
    • “I am confident from my sources that humans do have our own tic tac variation.” (Sam, 25:37)
  • Notable: Australian outback and Area 51 cited as locations for flight tests and sightings.
• Discussions of the 2004 Tic Tac Incident:
  • Plausibility that it involved a U.S.-derived craft, possibly tested unknowingly against U.S. forces.
    • “The Tic Tac 2004 incident...was operated by somebody connected to Lockheed Martin.” (Ross, 22:21)

5. Suppression, Risks, and Dark Consequences

• Suppression of Whistleblowers and Witnesses:
  • Severe silencing methods include directed energy weapons (linked to “Havana Syndrome”) against would-be divulgers.
    • “I personally know people who have been targeted by directed energy weapons.” (Sam, 34:53)
• Accidental Casualties from Weapon Use:
  • Claims that civilian aircraft have been inadvertently brought down by EMPs during anti-UAP operations.
    • “Civilian aircraft...brought down by electromagnetic pulse weapons as part of the program’s interdiction of non-human craft.” (Ross, 36:02; Sam confirms, 36:27)
  • Hints at documented blue-on-blue (friendly fire) and even murder to protect secrecy.
    • “The murder of a JSOC operative by members of a private military aerospace company...Are you familiar with that allegation?” (Ross, 37:48; Sam confirms, 37:57)
• The Problem of “Catastrophic Disclosure”:
  • Both men warn that an uncontrolled, forced disclosure could have devastating effects on the U.S. and global stability.
    • “I think that could be detrimental to the U.S. as a nation and possibly the globe as well.” (Sam, 21:27)

6. Program Structure, Oversight, and the ‘Deep State’

• Breakaway “Deep State”:
  • Sam describes the current legacy program as almost a “breakaway government” with its own self-funding and priorities, accountable neither to the public nor Congress.
    • “This is literally the deep state...a breakaway government that has its own power, authority, self fund to do whatever the heck it wants.” (Sam, 30:51)
• Congressional (Lack of) Action:
  • While Rep. Burleson and David Grusch are lauded for real transparency efforts, political fear, lobbying, or lost enthusiasm seem to scuttle broader reform.
  • Massive programs supposedly run without proper congressional knowledge or legal funding oversight.

7. Looking Forward: Amnesty, Disclosure, and Next Steps

• Rumors of Amnesty for Program Participants:
  • Discussion of a potential 60-day amnesty period where individuals with knowledge could come forward via secure, classified channels without fear of prosecution.
    • “If you’re going to let a crash retrieval operator who...may have done some illegal things, get amnesty...you’re not going to let James Clapper...” (Sam, 33:51)
• Uncertain Future—Partial or Full Disclosure?
  • Sam predicts only “partial disclosure” in the near term, fears controlled narratives will prevail if figures like Elizondo are installed as “UFO czar.”
    • “If Lou Elizondo becomes the UFO czar...we’re in for an extremely rough short term. Some very bad things are going to happen.” (Sam, 32:56)
  • Ultimate hope remains with empowering Congress, particularly figures like Grusch, to push through true accountability and transparency.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sam on Partial Disclosure:
  “Partial disclosures...you’re showing tic tac anomalous signatures, but there’s nothing to say Tom DeLonge was exposed to some of the reproduction vehicles or existence of.” (03:21)

• Ross on Program Secrecy:
  “There is no good reason why the public can’t be told about this.” (17:24)

• Sam on Oversight Evasion:
  “This is the ingenious tactic of being able to keep program materials within U.S. government grasp, but free from things like FOIA or traditional audits.” (18:48)

• Sam on Directed Energy Suppression:
  “I personally know people who have been targeted by directed energy weapons.” (34:53)

• Ross on the Need for Public Accounting:
  “At some stage there needs to be an accounting to the public for how their money is being spent.” (30:07)

• Sam on Deep State:
  “This is literally the deep state and it continues to be so. It’s...almost a breakaway civilization.” (30:51)

• Ross on the Future of Disclosure:
  “I do believe that the United States is testing technologies that it has not yet disclosed...whatever you think...doing it by dribble and pretending that you don't really know the full story isn’t going to wash.” (27:23)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------| | 00:37 | Elizondo’s potential role, legacy program access | | 01:01 | “Immaculate Constellation” and missing data | | 04:50 | Introduction to Kona Blue transfer | | 05:31 | CIA blocks Lockheed-to-DHS transfer | | 06:54 | Public call for Mellon to contact Sturtevant | | 12:13 | Schism in UAP community: Full vs. Controlled Disclosure | | 15:07 | Anti-gravity and technological breakthroughs | | 17:37 | Secrecy and lack of necessity for continued concealment | | 18:48 | How FFRDCs, MITRE, evade oversight and FOIA | | 25:37 | Human replication of “tic tac” UAPs | | 34:53 | Directed energy weapons used to suppress whistleblowers | | 36:02 | Civilian aircraft downed by UFO-related weapons | | 37:57 | JSOC operative murder allegation | | 39:36 | Congressional will, Burleson and Grusch’s efforts | | 41:46 | Why the “Legacy Program” didn’t trust Trump with secrets | | 42:11 | TTSA as a controlled disclosure organization | | 44:12 | Closing acknowledgments and invitation to return |

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Summary

Ross Coulthart and Sam unravel the intricate and troubling world of UAP legacy programs, focusing on the complexities of disclosure, the blurred lines between public and private aerospace contractors, and the potential consequences of bringing the hidden truth—if it exists—to the public. The conversation gives voice to whistleblowers, tackles disturbing allegations (including directed energy attacks and accidental civilian deaths), and questions both the ethical and legal foundations of the entrenched veil over government UFO research. Ultimately, the episode leaves listeners with lingering concerns about accountability, the meaning of “national security,” and the elusive nature of truth in the age of disclosure.

Transcript

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[Ross Coulthart]

Assuming it is Lou Elizondo who's appointed to this new role, this say the UFO czar role or whatever it is. I know Lou did at one stage present a proposal to the Trump administration that this role be created and he be the guy to run it. But assuming that is the case, he, from what you're saying, if this is true, does have detailed knowledge of the legacy program and and is in a position to ask questions.

[Sam]

I wager he does. And an interesting example that I once hypothesized about is you're familiar with the Immaculate Constellation document, right? Whistleblower Matthew Brown comes out and says that there was a National Security Council generated activity called Immaculate Constellation that was essentially a multi domain vacuum of information of IMIT data, imagery intelligence, signals intelligence, SIGINT and so forth.

[Ross Coulthart]

And have we seen any of that information so far in any of the UFO releases?

[Sam]

No, absolutely not.

[Ross Coulthart]

Is just reinforcing the fact that frankly what we've been given so far is bs.

[Sam]

Yeah. And I would say to Christopher Mellon, the good UAP data from overhead collection platforms are classified like Immaculate Constellation. But essentially Matthew Brown as a Department of State employee got his eyes on some of the byproducts of the Immaculate Constellation activity. And these included an array of sightings and collections of videos intelligence data from both non human technical vehicles and what are called reproduction vehicles in the document. A great example of the reproduction vehicle is a slowly rotating triangle over the indopaccom. But also the document speaks about sensor systems collecting Tic Tac data over oceans. I think this is also indopacom and the blurbs of the sightings say that the sensor suite seem to have foreknowledge of the collection of that specific vehicle. Now remember when Tom DeLonge went on Joe Rogan in 2017, he talked about that his one of his NRO contacts that worked closely with him, one of his best advisors said that elements of the NRO specifically had found a way to track these things. I think he said they knew where and when specific NRO scientists knew where and when some UAP would show up. Well, who left Federal. Who, quote, unquote, left Federal Service in 2017 and joined TTSA as liaison to the NRO. Immediately after that was Lou Elizondo. So I've hypothesized, again, I'm not stating directly because I don't want to get sued. I'm hypothesizing and possibly alleging that under the ATIP mission, under directive of James Clapper, Lou Elizondo exposed to Tom DeLonge to elements of the Immaculate Constellation activity.

[Ross Coulthart]

But isn't that a good thing? I mean, doesn't that show that he was moving to try and get this stuff exposed?

[Sam]

Again, partial disclosures, you're showing tic tac anomalous signatures, but there's nothing to say that Tom DeLonge was exposed to some of the reproduction vehicles or existence of.

[Ross Coulthart]

So you're basically saying that at that time, Tom delong was basically being prepared for a controlled disclosure narrative where they would limit what was being revealed. It was an attempt, you believe, by the National Security State to anticipate the likelihood of disclosure and to try and control what does come out by constraining how much is revealed about recovered craft.

[Sam]

I believe so, and I don't think that Tom DeLonge should be viewed as culpable in this operation at all. I think Tom delong's curiosity and passion for the topic was taken advantage of and kind of weaponized. I think there's an argument to be made that AATIP harnessed something called Project Forum. The Bigelow Advanced Aerospace Space Studies Contracting under OS app, the Advanced Aerospace Weapons Systems Application Program, produced a document and I think June of 2010, which Bass under Bigelow was kind of talking about what they were doing under. Under os, apparently. And within this document was something called Project Forum, which basically was a initiative to harness celebrities or influential figures in pop culture, specifically in California, and use them to push disclosure narratives or to push disclosure. I do fear that part of the AATIP partially harnessed remnants of that Project Forum. And we saw that kind of manifest with Tom delong's ttsa.

[Ross Coulthart]

What was Kona Balloon? I've never quite understood where Kona Blue fit into all of this. Just explain what Kona Blue was, please.

[Sam]

So Kona Blue was a Department of Homeland Security, dhs, PSAP, or Prospective Special Access Program. This was a Technology Transfer Agreement, TTA vehicle for Lockheed Martin, specifically Lockheed Martin Space Systems Company Vice president at the time, Jim Ryder, to divest specific UFO materials to the OS app.

[Ross Coulthart]

And so you're talking here about Homeland Security coordinating the transfer of an alien spacecraft or bits of an alien spacecraft to a government program.

[Sam]

Yeah. And using DHS is quite ingenious in my opinion, as they, historically, I understand, haven't been involved in the legacy program structure. So using a kind of impartial arbiter to pass those materials through is quite ingenious. Ultimately, of course, a senior vice president at Lockheed Martin, allegedly senior Vice President for Government affairs, allegedly relayed information of this transfer to the CIA's Directorate of Science and Technology. This was Mary Sturtevant allegedly relaying this information to Glenn Gaffney, to which the agency swooped in, said, no, you are not doing this, and put the gibosh on said transfer.

[Ross Coulthart]

Okay, so the lawyer in me is thinking, okay, you've just named three names there. Let's drag all of them into a skiff, sit them down and say, here's a presidential order. President Gerb commands that you tell the full story and the full truth about what you know about this legacy program. If you refuse to answer, you will be drummed out of the civil service with ignominious rewards.

[Sam]

Well, Jim Ryder has unfortunately passed. Shortly before his death, he was giving awfully interesting talks about UAP light beings. He infamously had a talk called Garment of God, I believe it was called. Glenn Gaffney is a well known figure in this topic and he needs to be.

[Ross Coulthart]

So he's top of your list. To be called.

[Sam]

Not top of the list, but. But quite close to top of the list. Top of the list would be some individuals at Northrop Grumman I'm sure we're both have familiarity with, but Mary Sturtevant. I would maybe use this opportunity right now to make another public outcry to Christopher Mellon. When Christopher Mellon worked in the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, he worked closely with Mary Sturtevant for a period of many years, to the point at which Mary and Christopher Mellon had the exact same per diem for some work trips. So clearly these people were taking work trips together, working closely. I would make a second. No, this would be the third time now, a public outcry to Chris Mellon to reach out to Mary Sturtevant or to approach appropriate congressional members. If he's aware of Mary Sturge Vaughn's involvement here. I'm sure she'll remember this time.

[Ross Coulthart]

You think we're being played? Yes, by people in the UAP community, don't you?

[Sam]

I do, yeah.

[Ross Coulthart]

What are they doing?

[Sam]

Limited disclosure campaigns or protection of equities and interests. And it's so frustrating. If more people had the courage or goal like David Grush to be completely transparent with the information they've been exposed to, I think we'd be in a much better place right now.

[Ross Coulthart]

Okay, but let me devil's advocate. I'm not expressing a particular view here. I'm just. It's my job to. Devil's advocate.

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[Ross Coulthart]

If this technology is real, it's the most valuable technology on the planet. It would be the most coveted item on the planet. It's worth serious coin. And we don't want this to fall into the hands of potential adversaries. The Russians, the Chinese, who probably almost certainly have recovered craft of their own and are attempting to do the same kind of reverse engineering. You can understand, can't you, the importance of protecting the national security elements of this retrieval program.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right?

[Sam]

And you don't. If we have a disclosure of. Our disclosure includes success of exploiting or deriving technologies from non human vehicles. You don't have to publish a manual on an alien reproduction vehicle. Exactly how they work. You don't even necessarily need to reveal them. A disclosure can include that there have been decades of attempts and possible successes and possible misses in exploiting and deriving the technology. And that's still an honest disclosure. You don't need to do an ARV, an Alien Reproduction Vehicle flyover with a B2. We still don't need to reveal our asymmetric what we think we might have as asymmetric warfare capabilities to China and Russia. There's still ways to disclose without playing our hand in this Subarossa Cold war.

[Ross Coulthart]

Do you think it's possible? I know David Grusch's original Dopser referred to agreements. What do you think those agreements related to? He's never really specified what they are.

[Sam]

No. And gosh, that might be fun to talk about as well because that's almost kind of out of my wheelhous. I'M so, so specific on the programs.

[Ross Coulthart]

Is it possible those agreements are with non human intelligences? Could this be the reason why there's so much secrecy?

[Sam]

It could be. And I don't have any specific knowledge on this, but I hypothesize maybe if those agreements have taken place, there are also technology transfer agreements. Maybe for certain things NHI non human intelligence have gifted. Certain.

[Ross Coulthart]

Because the only other explanation is that there are agreements with foreign adversaries.

[Sam]

Oh, I think that's quite possible. You talked about the, the treaties with Russia under, under the SALT treaties. Specifically there are Molink codes Adam 222 and 333 nuke flash codes to alert Russia if there's a UAP that's not one of our missiles in their skies and vice versa. I think there's also an argument to be made that, you know, maybe there are some treaties with Russia. Hey, this is your territory, this is our territory. If something anomalous crashes in there, you get it, we get it. And just not to step over each other's toes. So there's not kinetic strikes, there's quite possibly agreements with foreign adversaries.

[Ross Coulthart]

And yet as Jeff Cruikshank, the Australian intelligence person, was revealing in one of the shows that I've done with him, he talked about, I think it was Operation Palladium where they were using fake UFO signals to trick the Russians, the Soviets into a response. So they were actually using the very thing that JFK feared might provoke the Soviets into a nuclear war to try and find out the capabilities of their own radar systems.

[Sam]

Yeah, because I think at some point you have to look outside the United States as well, because this isn't just the US phenomena UAP and crash retrievals. And you know, I think there's an argument to be made that some US partners, our five eyes partners, have agreements and cooperation and coordination with uap, tracking, monitoring, retrieval and so forth. And I think that there's likely adversarial countries that have similar agreements with other nations and anything to fuel the subrosa cold war, you know, any egg you can collect that may produce some advancement in directed energy technology or propulsion study or skin of craft study.

[Ross Coulthart]

So where are we going then? If as you say, there is a schism developing in the UAP community between the full monty advocates, which is, let's reveal all of it. That's David Grusch. And then there's the controlled disclosure advocates who are trying to contain what they think is valuable for protecting US national security. Who's going to win?

[Sam]

I Hope with all of my heart that David Grusch does and sort of the full transparency efforts. And mostly because of this right now, as I understand, the fractured legacy program structure is like a chicken with its head cut off. There's no centralized direction.

[Ross Coulthart]

Well, that was my next question, actually. I mean, so who's the top dog right now? You've talked about James Clapper. Are you saying that a former general James Clapper is the MJ one right now?

[Sam]

No, I think right now there's a flat hierarchy within the programs. That committee of 27 still exists likely to arbitrate program exposure management and program protection. But I think right now the glory days of the legacy programs is long gone. There's significant brain drain as there's not cooperation across the silos. You know, you might have a naval program and an army program, both studying the skin of recovered crafts for electro optic cloaking. But scientists, personnel discoveries, et cetera, are not shared. Significant brain drain running around like a chicken with its head cut off. Imagine this program set if it was once again a unified program set that attracted the US as best and brightest, instead of a fractured. Just a fractured mess scattered into the wind.

[Ross Coulthart]

Well, you used the term earlier. Manhattan 2.0 it once was, I believe.

[Sam]

Yeah.

[Ross Coulthart]

And that was then, obviously a huge effort to try and deploy as many resources as possible to try and understand this technology. Right through to the mid-1950s, it was quite clear in the aerospace literature that there was an underground effort, a black world effort to crack anti gravity. Do you think we have.

[Sam]

I think one of the best people who speaks about this is Eric Weinstein. Of course he talks all the time about secret anti gravity studies stemming from the 50s. I do probably think we have cracked at least some successes in the realm of anti gravity. You know, there's. When people talk about alien reproduction vehicles or copycat vehicles, I'm of the mind there are two flight modes for some of these craft that have interstellar capabilities, which is of course the interstellar travel and the on planet travel. The on planet travel can of course do mind melting physics defined movements of dropping from 80,000ft to sea level less than a second. But, you know, might not have interstellar capabilities. I do think that we as humans have mastered that technique of the kind of in planet flight mode, but not interstellar. So I think there are elements of anti gravity propulsion we probably have cracked.

[Ross Coulthart]

And why would we conceal that if that was the case? Because it means that all of the money we're spending on the Artemis mission, all of the money we're expending on rocketry. Most of our understanding of conventional physics is just completely and utterly antiquated.

[Sam]

Defense trumps all. All the best resources, all the best minds, all the best money is always towards defense. As David Grusch beautifully said on your show, feudalistic dominance and asymmetric warfare. Advantages are the number and of course secrecy now are the three biggest things for the Legacy program portfolio.

[Ross Coulthart]

But if you're right, the Russians and the Chinese have probably got their own parallel programs going as well. How do we know they haven't scored the march on us?

[Sam]

Maybe they have. Maybe there's been some successful spy craft going both ways and I would be very worried about that. But I do think that just like the Soviets cracked the Manhattan Project, Klaus Fuchs relayed secrets of the atomic bomb project back to Soviet Russia. In the decades of the programs, I think it's highly likely there has been spycraft kompromat done on all sides.

[Ross Coulthart]

But to that extent, and again, I'm just continuing the devil's advocatory I was doing earlier in that context, if the Russians and the Chinese are developing their own parallel programs and they're desperate to find out what the American secrets are, isn't it a good idea to try and contain that and control that? I mean, I'd be happy right now frankly if President Trump just stood up at a lectern and said, ladies and gentlemen, yep, it's true, we've been lying to you for the last 80 plus years. The US government is in possession of non human technology. But that's all we're telling you.

[Sam]

That would open up a lot of questions, certainly. But I do think there's probably an interest from foreign nations, especially if, let's say that, let's say that Russia feels comfortable with some aspects of non human technology they've cracked, but super uncomfortable with others. So there would be a reason to try and delay any sort of, any sort of adversarial meaning us in this context, disclosure. So they have more time to work in their program. Because of course, possibly there is in China or Russia a more unified program set. Now that we as Americans have a horrible brain drain and kind of a stagnating breakthrough section of our program effort, this might be invaluable time for them.

[Ross Coulthart]

The thing I wrestle with, Sam, is when I have spoken and I have spoken to people who purport to be inside the Legacy program, they say that in their view there is no good reason why the public can't be told about this. Right.

[Sam]

I think That's a byproduct of the compounding secrecy. I think that over the time of the program being hidden within covert activities, oversight to scattering the program and cover offices to vesting the program in a quasi industry government control group. The secrecy has gotten so out of control. And that's not even mentioning goco. Government owned contractor operated or federally funded research and development centers or university affiliated research centers, UARCs. There is this misconception that there's the US government and the DoD and then there's the defense industrial based prime contractors like Lockheed Martin. There's an interim here. And these are FFRDCs, UARKs and GOCOs. These are partially private, partially government owned institutions. GOCOs. So something like the MITRE Corporation receives 99% of its funding from the US government. It runs several FFRDCs and operates as a subject matter expert and R&D ACE and wonderful program manager for some of the US as their sponsor in certain instances programs adherent to that are super strict on national security secrets.

[Ross Coulthart]

But even though 90% of its funding comes from the US government, it's completely excluded from oversight laws.

[Sam]

That's right. That's right. This is the ingenious tactic of being able to keep program materials still within US government grasp, but free from things like FOIA or traditional audits and so forth. This is why another one of my problems with the Age of Disclosure is

[Ross Coulthart]

there's no film that was made featuring a large number of UAP related officials who talked about the need for transparency and disclosure.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Right.

[Sam]

And this is FFRDCs are largely missing from this. And sort of like you've talked to several individuals on or were in the program. I've talked to several as well, especially individuals within FFRDCs. And this truly is the missing link in the whole discussion.

[Ross Coulthart]

So I keep on coming back to that central question. Isn't it all a bit hopeless? Because I mean, I was talking to somebody recently who said to me, if the intelligence community want to hide something, they can do it no matter what the executive arm of government says.

[Sam]

Well, here's a little bit of hope. Representative Burleson sent a letter to MIT Lincoln Labs, an FFRDC that was the reimagining of Vannevar Bush's MIT Radiation lab. Burleson requested a specific film in this legal interrogative given by Edward J. Ruppelt, leader of Project Blue Book in the early days. That was given in 1952 before the Robertson panel. So probably pretty interesting. And in the letter, Burleson specifically states, this is the file name this is the video, this is the date. So these interrogatives are starting to set off a chain reaction where, you know, if somebody like Dave Grusch informs Burleson specifics to put in letters, hey, Mitre, we know you have this. Return this over, you're legally compelled to, and that's destroyed. There's huge ramifications for that. It's, it's, it's a huge game of chess. This sort of disclosure process spearheaded by Burleson and Grush, there's a lot of great moves being made.

[Ross Coulthart]

And contemporaneously, isn't there a huge risk that somebody inside the legacy program, if they continue this attempt to try and control the narrative? One thing I know is there's a huge frustration, especially in the scientific community in the program, that it's being constrained from doing what good science does. Being able to share data with trusted colleagues and get breakthroughs on material science in particular, isn't there a risk of a catastrophic disclosure just like what was portrayed in the Disclosure Day film?

[Sam]

And that would be very horrific. That'd be an uncontrolled rollout. I know a lot of people kind of in the community on this topic call for catastrophic disclosure, but I think

[Ross Coulthart]

they understand what they're talking about.

[Sam]

Right. I think that could be detrimental to the US as a nation and possibly the globe as well.

[Ross Coulthart]

What are you being told by your sources has been achieved by the United States or these private corporations with this

[Sam]

technology in planet flight mode, just like we talked about. I'm very confident that whether you want to call them alien reproduction vehicles, prosaic airframes employing one or several pieces of derived or exploited technology. I do think we've replicated in planet performance of some of these technical vehicles in multiple configurations as well. Might I add saucers, Triangle triangles. I would imagine most triangles that are 2 to 300ft longer in diameter are probably ours.

[Ross Coulthart]

Do you think the tic Tac of 2004 was a blue on blue?

[Sam]

Well, that's quite that. So I know you still to this day get asked about that. I think it's possible it's become the Holy Writ.

[Ross Coulthart]

It's really interesting to me that all I ever did was report what I was told by sources, multiple sources, that The Tic Tac 2004 incident against the USS Nimitz carrier battle fleet, it was operated by somebody connected to Lockheed Martin.

[Sam]

I've heard the same. Not directly Lockheed Martin, but why a US derived piece of technology may have been used in such a situation to test on our Blue Forces.

[Ross Coulthart]

What an insane thing to do.

[Sam]

I know, I know.

[Ross Coulthart]

I mean, why not tell Dave Fravor and Alex Dietrich, the two fighter pilots that saw this object? Please don't talk about this. It's a national security secret.

[Sam]

Well, didn't Tim Phillips, deputy director of arrw, say that shortly after the encounter some DARPA officials arrived on scene and confiscated some of the radar?

[Ross Coulthart]

They did, yeah. But why didn't they sit the pilots down and say, look, we'd prefer you not speak about this, It's a national security issue.

[Sam]

I think that those pilots. Same thing with what the pro. If the Tic Tac was Lockheed Technology, which I don't know if it is, it could be, it could not be. But these pilots would not have a need to know to be briefed into that capability.

[Ross Coulthart]

I think that was the worry, that if you asked them to shut up about it, the chances were you were actually confirming it was something that was a U.S. controlled program.

[Sam]

I know you've gotten some grief about that and another large crash retrieval, but I think that the Lockheed. I wish the Lockheed comment would have seen some more discussion about people kind of chewing through like, hey, is this possible? That this would have been a human operated or human made vehicle? And why would that be done? And why wouldn't David Fravor be bruised?

[Ross Coulthart]

I just don't think anybody's given enough consideration. Quite apart from the fact that I've got sources that have told me this, I don't think anybody's given enough consideration to the fact that apparently the Admiral of the fleet when he was told about the Tic Tac, didn't even bet. Nihilist.

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[Sam]

No. And I know Jeremy Corbellis staunchly says that the Tic Tac was, was Non human technology. I'm still open to it. I don't know.

[Ross Coulthart]

It may very well have been non human technology, but who was operating it?

[Sam]

Right, that's true.

[Ross Coulthart]

Yeah, that's the issue. And I think people have completely missed that distinction. And I've always made that point that we don't know whether it was non human technology or whether it was jury rigged human technology combined with non human technology so that it could be operated by humans or whether it was human technology, full stop.

[Sam]

Irrespectively, I am confident from my sources that humans do have our own tic Tac variation. I'm super confident in that. Not as confident with the triangles, the equilateral triangles. Three lights on each vertex, one in the center. But I do understand.

[Ross Coulthart]

Oh, that's where Australian data points come in. Because there's so much to suggest to me that at one stage, when George Knapp started causing mischief at Area 51 and using people like Bob Lazar to raise questions about what was going on in the Nevada test range, all of a sudden communities across northwestern Australia started seeing large triangular objects hovering over the outback. And I do wonder whether the program was at one stage moved to that part of northern Australia. That's an ongoing investigation.

[Sam]

That's interesting. And of course you and I have talked to individuals who in service have encountered such craft. Roger Castle, you know, we spoke to him together in the late 90s whilst in the Hunter Warrior advanced warfighting experiment, he came upon a massive triangle and a ground element team that held him at gunpoint.

[Ross Coulthart]

And clearly a ground element team knew that triangle in some way either, you know, had perhaps control of it or were liaising with it. I mean, it seems to me very hard to discount the probability that the United States is operating vehicles that appear to be displaying alternative propulsion systems that are outside the ken of known public human technology.

[Sam]

Yeah, I mean, I've talked to several individuals who may have been in Area 51, for example, at a time. And when the flight line is cleared for a classified airframe or something, they, you know, maybe peek out the blinds or get a look at the flight strip and they'll see a large triangle just take off vertically and not even disturb the dust around that. There are so many cases, it's.

[Ross Coulthart]

Well, I've spoken to a gentleman and I think he went public eventually at Eglin Air Force Base, who was convalescing in a hospital on the base, went out for a cigarette late at night and saw military and civilian personnel tending to a gigantic triangle in a forest clearing which subsequently lifted off and took off completely, soundlessly, instantaneously reappeared 20 or 30 minutes later. I do believe that the United States is testing technologies that it has not yet disclosed the existence of. And I'm happy about that, which is what my worry is. My worry, and I implore people in the new administration, Trump administration, to think about the consequences of this. At the moment, this piecemeal disclosure, whatever you think of David Grusch, Louis Luzondo or whoever, whatever they do, doing it by dribble and pretending that you don't really know the full story isn't going to wash in the long run because there are too many people who know about this.

[Sam]

Yeah. I wonder in a sense if certain equities, certain parties within the legacy program are also trying to outpace sort of administrations or disclosure initiatives to the point where that sort of dribble can be done pretty disturbingly. I am aware of a scenario in the early 2000s in which specific FFRDCs and elements of the armed forces. I'm not sure how wide this goes, but embarked on a concentrated effort to stop briefing program incumbents on the history of the program and that essentially it led to a ignorant and unknowledgeable new generation of program workers.

[Ross Coulthart]

So even within the program, the people, when you say incumbents, the people who were responsible managerially for managing that program weren't being told the full story right.

[Sam]

There was a briefing cut off where newcomers into the program would not be briefed on program history, program breakthroughs, program capabilities.

[Ross Coulthart]

So why is that happening?

[Sam]

I don't know. Also in the same program sets there are to keep read in personnel so small, some individuals might be given subordinate tasks so more people don't need to be read. In an example here being you might have a senior staff scientist who is also doing accounting work or an industrial security personnel also doing janitorial work. So the program read on can be so small. I'm also aware of an effort that began in the late 2000s and was killed in the early 2010s within the air Force that planned to disclose some of these incredible airframes, but not say they were non human technology. It was a go forward campaign for a hidden wing of the U.S. air Force. And why that was killed, who killed it? Not sure. But there was a very real plan there to go forward with these incredible craft.

[Ross Coulthart]

That's the thing that fascinates me is because as you and I both know, there are people inside the national security complex who want or think that morally and properly there should be Some kind of reveal to the public you've been paying for this billions, if not trillions of dollars for decades now. It might explain why there are some very shiny looking military bases but not very good roads in different parts of America. I think at some stage there needs to be an accounting to the public for how their money is being spent. But instead we've got this deceit. Isn't this by definition what Donald Trump warned about in his election campaign? The risk of a state within a state?

[Sam]

Yeah, this is literally the deep state and it continues to be so. And this is basically, as Richard Dolan likes to say, almost a breakaway civilization. I wouldn't go so far as to say a civilization, but basically a breakaway government that has its own power, authority, self fund to do whatever the heck it wants.

[Ross Coulthart]

But why do they assume, if this is true, why do they assume that they have any right not to brief in, and I know you're going to say temporary employees, but not to brief in, say the Gang of Eight of Congress. I mean that whole structure was set up under the constitutional requirements of American law to ensure that the Congress, which is after all spending this money, has oversight over how that money is being spent. Why would they subvert that? Why would any reasonable person want to subvert that?

[Sam]

So one of the questions is why would the program briefen these people? If the program ultimately has its own hierarchical structure and doesn't answer to congressional oversight and does what it wants, establishes its own programs, what need would it have to brief in the Gang of eight, Gang of Four? What need would it have to brief in congressmen besides the ones that they can use for their own agenda?

[Ross Coulthart]

The most important need of all. It's the law.

[Sam]

Exactly. Clearly, clearly. When you have individuals like Dave Grusch also stating that these programs have illegally harnessed funds and criminal enterprises to fund themselves, there is a serious constitutional crisis here. And furthermore, why would these programs brief any sitting Congressman unless they have compromise on them to do whatever they want? Also there's, with some of these senior executive officials, there is this weird kind of egotistical point of view that if you're not us, you're them. So some of these SES guys, senior executive officials, they might not see politicians, they might see politicians as dumb leakers and might not think they're these hardcore super smart acquisition guys that have served in as an SES in the Air Force for 20 years. They might see them as like a different breed of human, essentially.

[Ross Coulthart]

So whip out your crystal ball, Sam. Uap Gur. What's going to happen next few months? Are we going to see any kind of meaningful disclosure?

[Sam]

I think we might get some partial disclosure. I'm going to be completely honest here with how we started. If, if Lou Elizondo becomes the UFOs are UAPs are, I think we're in for an extremely rough short term. Some very bad things are going to happen. I hope that the disclosure efforts of Representative Burleson and more importantly David Grusch prevail. I think that is the best path forward. That's the most responsible path forward and that's the most transparent path forward. I do think maybe in the next couple of months we'll continue to get maybe even an acknowledgement of non human presence.

[Ross Coulthart]

It's clear that within the administration from what certain members of the UAP caucus have been saying, that there is some consideration being given to opening the door a bit. There's talk of an amnesty. Do you think that everybody who's been responsible for alleged crimes within this program should be exculpated and given amnesty?

[Sam]

It's a tough question, but I think kind of where we are at now, it's all or none within a specific window of time. The timeframe that's been discussed, of course, is about two months, 60 days, where if somebody has had program exposure, they can make protected disclosures through classified channels, not publicly. Right. Like if NDAs are waived, these people aren't going to be taking a mic in front of the congressional steps and talking about what they know. These disclosures will still be made in a protected classified setting. But if you're going to let a crash retrieval operator who may have, you know, killed a civilian or may have done some illegal things, get amnesty. But you're not going to let like James Clapper, I think there would be some problems there. But I also think some of the mob bosses like James Clapper, some of these lifelong people in the programs are not going to come Forward in that 60 day window if amnesty is promised or given and thus they will face the penalty for not once they're pursued, they would face the penalty.

[Ross Coulthart]

Do you have evidence that suggests that directed energy weapons have been used against people involved in the program who are thinking about speaking out?

[Sam]

Unfortunately, yes. I personally know people who have been targeted by directed energy weapons.

[Ross Coulthart]

So that's tying into this whole Havana Syndrome story as well?

[Sam]

I believe so, yes.

[Ross Coulthart]

So the program itself, I notice that there are people who've described being close to UAP related institutions or suspected UAP related institutions and they've suffered heat on their bodies Unexplained heat on their bodies that made them flee. Is that what you're talking about or are you talking about something more serious?

[Sam]

I'm talking about individuals who under specific circumstances in their own day to day life started to be subjected to directed energy weapons.

[Ross Coulthart]

And that's the sort of thing that's caused cognitive decline, deterioration in some people.

[Sam]

Yes. There's also some interesting stories online. Of course I can't prove these stories, I don't know if they're true specifically, but of individuals who have gotten close to specific military and Northrop Grumman sites and claimed they had been targeted by directed energy weapons as well, which is really intriguing.

[Ross Coulthart]

There's an allegation that I noticed Jesse Michaels ran on his recent American Alchemy summary of all of these incredible allegations. I thought it was fantastic.

[Sam]

It was great.

[Ross Coulthart]

And he did an analysis in which he mentioned an allegation that I was quite shocked to hear being made publicly. But seeing Jesse made it, I'm going to make it here. I know it's true that civilian aircraft have been inadvertently brought down by electromagnetic pulse weapons as part of the program's interdiction of non human craft. Have you heard that allegation yourself?

[Sam]

Yeah, I have. And unfortunately I think that most of these aircraft downings were done incidentally, not purposefully, but no, they weren't purposeful.

[Ross Coulthart]

They were just incidentally caught up in the projection of the EMP weapon.

[Sam]

An aircraft flies into a temporary flight restrictive zone, TFR is haphazardly hit and individuals are killed. I have been exposed to that information as well.

[Ross Coulthart]

And those people, those individuals have been represented as just lost aircraft, lost hubs probably.

[Sam]

And we'll likely never see justice, which is a real shame. But it's a disturbing allegation and one that I also do think has occurred several times.

[Ross Coulthart]

I mean, a lot of people will say it's very easy making these kind of allegations, but I find it disturbing and distressing that you've heard it. I've heard it and it's from people directly involved in my case who were involved in these operations.

[Sam]

Right, yes, I understand your sourcing for that and yes, I agree. I heard the same.

[Ross Coulthart]

It's chilling.

[Sam]

It is. And even outside of these aircraft incidentally being down, how many individuals have lost their lives in pursuit of transparency on this topic or just incidentally killed? You know, there's been so much discussion of various blue on blue kinetic strikes.

[Ross Coulthart]

Well, that's the next thing I was going to the murder of a JSOC operative by Members of a private military aerospace company that had its own paramilitary force. Are you familiar with that allegation?

[Sam]

Yes, I am. And I also understand Jake Barber tried to expose such a, such a kinetic strike in his sort of dotser trick process, the Sentinels of Ether manuscript. He tried to convey that as almost a Romana Clay, a work of fact through fiction.

[Ross Coulthart]

But yes, it is a very good read. The Sentinels of Ether. A very good read.

[Sam]

Yeah, I think the first two chapters of that have been public made public. Initially Jake was going to write a whole book there, but I think he shifted more towards going public himself.

[Ross Coulthart]

But basically the gist of the book is one of the central allegations is that a JSOC operative is made to kneel and then shot in the back of the head.

[Sam]

He also talked about that with you on camera. A lot of people, when they think of Jake Barber's testimony, they think about the 40 minute News Nation special. But you guys filmed four hours. You premiered a video of four hours. And there's some incredible discussion of not only that kinetic blue on blue strike, but also non human intelligence beings bodies specifically, Jake says extraterrestrial in some cases replication vehicles, specific aerospace companies having capabilities akin to some UFO craft. And anybody listening right now, I highly recommend watching that four hour interview with Jake. It's astonishing.

[Ross Coulthart]

I know, it's amazing. I, for the life of me don't know why Congress hasn't done more with it. And this is where I'm coming to ultimately, in the end, the only government body outside of the President that has the power to do anything about this is Congress. Are you seeing any political will from Congress to really get to the truth of all of this?

[Sam]

Of course. I think Burleson's doing a great job. I do worry so much that other politicians, not Burleson, because I know he's really clued into the subject, will go the route of Rubio and Gillibrand where they get close to the topic and for a multitude of reasons pull away and there's no effective change in that realm. I think that again, it all boils down to I think Dave Grusch needs to be empowered. I think he's the one guy that can spearhead the disclosure he needs.

[Ross Coulthart]

If it was Dave Grusch or Lou Elizondo, whoever, they need power.

[Sam]

Yes, exactly. You can be appointed as a political figurehead with no power and get nothing done. Dave Grush needs to be able to have access to any SAP F Special Access Program facility. He needs to be deputized to do that. To subpoena witnesses.

[Ross Coulthart]

Do you think Donald Trump would ever do that?

[Sam]

I think if others around him that he listens to compelled him to do so.

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[Ross Coulthart]

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[Ross Coulthart]

terms and yet you know what's hilarious at the front of all of this? Whoever runs the Legacy program didn't think Donald Trump could be trusted with the secret.

[Sam]

No. And that's why we just to go

[Ross Coulthart]

back to what we were talking about. As soon as they knew that Hillary Clinton wasn't going to win that election in 2016,

[Sam]

then TTSA pops up and you can kind of see this constant re pivoting of James Clapper inspired disclosure efforts.

[Ross Coulthart]

So you think TTSA was another attempt at controlled disclosure? It was an attempt to manipulate or anticipate the narrative.

[Sam]

That's correct. I think TTSA, at the behest of Lou Elizondo, was a continuation of aatip once Lou left.

[Ross Coulthart]

I'm sorry to explain to our audience to the Stars Academy, TTSA was a body that was set up by Tom DeLonge in collaboration with Lou Elizondo, Jim Semmevan, Steve justice and others as part of an attempt to make a organization that was going to advocate for public disclosure.

[Sam]

And ultimately that fell apart. Just like the attempt to make Hillary Clinton the disclosure president. Just like all of the mistruths around AATIP continue to crumble down. Again, AATIP wasn't a real program per se. It was an informal working group without a budget.

[Ross Coulthart]

Okay, so if TTSA was part of a controlled disclosure narrative. I know Lou Elizondo practically went broke during that because they had to stop paying him because it wasn't making any money from the attempt to do a public float. So the problem I have with the idea that Lou's kind of like a willing accomplice in a controlled disclosure is he personally suffered financial hardship as a result of that. If this was a CIA front or some kind of operation by Defence Intelligence, wouldn't they have funded that and made sure to succeeded?

[Sam]

So, just as a thought exercise, remember when we talked about the Yellow fruit Unacknowledged Special Access Program. Lt. Col. Duncan, quote unquote, retired from federal service to where he set up the shell company I with BSI International to fund to continue operating Yellow fruit activities. It's not Same situation could be extended here where Lou Elizondo retires from federal service but continues to act in the interest of an element of, in this case, James Clapper, the intelligence community. Was he going broke or was he getting paid? Perhaps he was still under salary for that operation or perhaps he had a juicy enough pension. He could continue to do that, but I don't know if he went broke.

[Ross Coulthart]

Gerb, I could talk all night with you. I find your ability to recall the history fascinating. I am suffering from terminal jet lag, so I'm going to call it there.

[Commercial Announcer]

Sure.

[Ross Coulthart]

It's been great to speak with you. And can we get you back on Reality Check again sometime soon?

[Sam]

Absolutely. Ross, it's an honour.

[Ross Coulthart]

Thank you very much for talking to us.

[Commercial Announcer]

Thank you, sir.

[Ross Coulthart]

And I hope this has shed some light on the impenetrable morass of what the hell is going on in uapology. Thank you so much, Sam.

[Sam]

Thank you, Ross.

[Ross Coulthart]

Evening.

[Sam]

Buyer's remorse.

[Ross Coulthart]

Buy a new car. I'll be moving in.

[Sam]

Let's get started.

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Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Ross Coulthart]

So there's no.

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[Ross Coulthart]

I guess I'll let myself out.

[Sam]

Congratulations.

[Ross Coulthart]

I mean it.

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