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- [00:00]
A
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wonder app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
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B
Hi.
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A
On today's episode, I spoke with activist and author Amanda Knox. For those of you who don't know the story, in 2007, Amanda was a 20 year old girl studying abroad in Italy when her roommate Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered in their shared apartment. Despite no physical evidence, Italian police zeroed in on Amanda and her then boyfriend, Raffaele Selechito. They were both wrongfully convicted and spent four years in Italian prison before being exonerated in 2015. All the while, the tabloids feasted on this story, pushing a narrative of a sex game turned vicious murder and painting Amanda as a sinister femme fatale. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to and thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. I did my first interview, the Barbara Walters interview, and made the huge mistake of having a viewing party which highly do not recommend to people for their very first interview when it is connected to a global scandal.
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B
You know what? I had a viewing party too.
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A
It was just really. It was not smart on my part. I was like, oh, I didn't realize I might freak out.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But I really just wanted to die with my. I pretty much punctuated every sentence with. So it was like the nervous, laugh, terrifying thing ever. I know. Exactly. Yet again, another. Another wackadoodle experience that we have in common of A, doing TV interviews when you are not someone who wants to become famous and B, doing a first TV interview with like enormously respected journalists.
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B
Who are paid to put you through a hard time. Also.
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A
Yes, Amanda, welcome to reclaiming.
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B
Exactly.
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A
But it's, you know, I know these kinds of conversations are evergreen, but I think gonna make the exception because we are talking today. This will drop on the day before the twisted tale of Amanda Knox lands on Hulu. But we are talking today with the trailer having just come out two hours ago. A few hours ago.
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B
So I. I just showed our makeup artist.
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A
Oh, okay.
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B
Who's amazing, by the way. Nia. Nia is incredible. Shout out to Nia. Shout out to Nia. And she. I have chills. Yeah. Which is awesome. I have chills. I still have chills watching it. Cause it's so good, right?
- [03:01]
A
Because it's so good. Or is it hard for you to connect? This happened to me.
- [03:09]
B
Here's a thing that I. The word that people keep texting to me since They've seen the trailer. People who know and care about me, friends, even acquaintances, sort of people that I've met once or twice. But along my journey of being a person, the word that they keep saying is intense. This looks super intense. And it's like, yes, because it was super intense. I mean, on the one hand, some people are, like, going to prison for something I didn't do is, like, my worst nightmare, and they get it. And I think other people. I get the vibe that when people talk to me, sometimes they think that what I went through wasn't that bad. Oh, right. Like, yeah. No, Like, I get. Like, some people are like, oh, you know, four years in prison.
- [03:56]
A
Like, she's doing Italian prison.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Probably got pasta for dinner.
- [04:00]
B
Exactly. Like, there's, like, there. There's this little sort of. I. I noticed that some people don't really remember or realize that, like, it was really, really bad. Like, so bad. And what I sometimes get is people are like, amanda's doing just fine. She's benefited from this bad thing that's happened to her. Like, you know, like, they. They say that someh scales suggest that, like, I'm better off for having gone through a thing, and so that somehow makes the thing less bad. Or I'm not a. Here. The thing that I get is you're not a real victim. Right. And therefore, like, a diminishing of this horrible thing that happened to me, and I push back and go, there are lots of victims in this story, and I am one of them. And what I went through was super intense. It was really, really scary, and it was really overwhelming, and I didn't know what to do. And I was a kid.
- [04:55]
A
You were 20. You were an American kid in a foreign land. Land. Not speaking the language.
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B
Yeah, not speaking the language. Someone broke into my house and murdered my roommate. And then a few days later, I'm in a fricking jail cell. Yeah.
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A
I wrote a piece called who Gets to live in Victimville? And it was this idea around. It's very interesting the way someone sees themself as a victim or victimized, but also the kinds of conversations that happen around these pieces. Public stories of people wanting to determine whether or not someone was a victim. And I think exactly as you said, you know, I mean, yeah, poor Meredith. Obviously a victim, you know, her family a victim of the consequences of what happened to her. And you were also a victim. Yeah, and I think there were those instances in my story, too. You know, both Hillary and Chelsea suffered. My family suffered. I suffered. Bill suffered. Linda Tripp suffered. And I know, actually, that has been a really important aspect of the show that, you know, I think both you came with this feeling, and our creator and showrunner, KJ Steinberg has felt that. And, you know, Warren Littlefield and the other producers and Hulu and 20th, everybody was really interested in kind of telling the nuanced version of this story and looking at, you know, with the Anatomy of Bias being the spine of this series and all those things. And I found in the process that that was hard, you know?
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B
Yeah.
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A
I also wanted to go back to when, you know, you have this experience.
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B
Of.
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A
This incredibly traumatic and horrific experience of your roommate being murdered in the home that you all shared, a young, beautiful woman, and you now get embroiled in the legal aspect of it in a way that you never imagined. You thought you were staying to help the police instead of staying to become the suspect, one of the suspects. And I wondered about, like, how and when were you able to process the grief that you felt about your friend?
- [07:25]
B
Yeah, that's a great question. One day, my. My attorneys came, and they wanted to ask me a question about just something that was found at the. At the crime scene. Like, they. You know, there's a million photographs. You know, they all took all these videos, and they. They had a question about, you know, one. I don't even know, some object that was discovered at the crime scene or whatever. So they brought in their, like, file of all these, like, photos from the crime scene, and they're. They open up the file, and they. And they're flipping through it, and I'm waiting for them to show me, you know, what the image that is that they want to show me. And then just, like, out of the blue, there's Meredith, there's her body, there's her wounds. I had never seen them before. That was the first time. And I become hysterical, like. And my. My attorneys, like, were just like, oh, my God, what's going on? And. And I start, like, panicking and hyperventilating and just being like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. And I. It's. It's very overwhelming when you. You know, a person, you've. You've had pizza with them, you've gone and danced with them. To see them in a state like that. Mm. And I'm. I'm crying, and I'm overwhelmed, and they call it off, the whole, like, meeting with them, and the guards come and get me because I'm freaking out, and as they're sort of, like, dragging me out of there and Back into my cell, they're like, what the hell? What's going on? Like, Amanda, you don't freak out? Like, what is going on? And I was like, they showed me. They showed me her picture. They showed me what happened. And they were like, you did that? Why. Why are you acting surprised? And that. That's what your question reminds me of, is that as I am, like, taking in the fact that, like, a person that I knew, who was my friend, and I didn't know her her entire life, we knew each other for, you know, several weeks. That's it. But still, this is a person I lived with, that I spent time with, that had happened to her. Mm. And I'm like, I'm in shock. I'm in denial. I'm being sort of thrown into a gruesome reality, and I'm given zero emotional support, zero grace. To be. To be messy about it, like, to like. To, like, freak out. Like, I was never allowed to grieve her, and I was put into an immediate state of survival to just, like, survive this bad experience, which sort of, like, put the process of really, like, deeply viscerally grieving her on hold. Mm. And I. I think that one of my big goals in the show is to, like, really, finally grieve her. Like, really being back with her as a person and the life that we had together before it was torn apart like that. That was something that was really important to me in the making of the show. And it's like this, again, this long tale of trauma is like, trying to figure out how I can have this person who is now a part of me. I am inextricably linked with this horrible thing that happened to her. And in a way, I'm, in my own way, carrying on her legacy alongside mine. And I feel a deep responsibility for that. I feel a deep. The bare truth of it is, again, we were just too young people in very similar moments of our lives, who had our dreams shattered. Yeah. Yeah. And so grieving her has been complicated and fraught.
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A
Yeah. One of the things that was really beautiful was how important it was to you that we find the right person to portray Meredith and that, you know, we found someone in Rhiann Rianne Barretto, someone who had the light, who brought the light and the joy.
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B
I wanted to show that this person had been kind to me. Like, you know, she. She'd give me, like, temporary tattoos, and we joked around about boys, and, like, you know, we were young girls, Right? We were young girls.
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A
You were 20, she was 21.
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B
And we were we had all of our life ahead of us, and then this happened, and here we are. And I'm the one who survived. And I can't, like, I can't tell her tale, but I can tell mine, and both matter. And I can try to do justice for her by talking about what really happened. Mm. And hoping that people listen. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Cause it matters.
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A
I think it's one of the things for me, and I know is important to you, too, that the show goes beyond the courtroom drama, and that's what transcends this from being something that's just a true crime story.
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B
Right.
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A
I think the value of the show. Right. Is that these.
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B
We.
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A
We try and tell these kinds of stories. I did this with impeachment. The hope is so that it doesn't have to be so bad for the next person. Right. So the next young woman, maybe people won't feast on her as much or as long or as painfully so that it's, like, on you, like indelible ink. But I think also, too, there's this part of that, you know, is that you pay a very high price for a very long time after your name is not in the headlines.
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B
Yes.
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A
And your family, you know, is pained. Pained by watching you suffer, knowing there's nothing they can do.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But I think this. The window into the aftermath that the series goes into. I hope it's as powerful for people as it was important to us and to KJ and everybody else, too.
- [14:24]
B
That's truly where the hope is. Because otherwise it's just a tragedy. Otherwise, it's just pain. Now it becomes a journey of re. Emerging. And that's, I think, and purpose. And purpose. And I think that's where it becomes universal. Right. Like, not everyone is going to be, you know, in a scandalous. Right. You know, it's going to. Not everyone's going to go through that, but everyone is going to go through. Through something traumatic and have to make sense of it in the aftermath and understand that they are both indelibly changed. But also that it's not over.
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A
Right.
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B
It's not over.
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A
Yep.
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B
Yep.
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A
And it's can insist for a different ending. And alt ending, as my production company is called.
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B
Yes, Alt ending is such. Yes. Alt ending. You get. It's still there. It's still your story. Your story is still evolving. You are still a process and you have a say.
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A
Right.
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B
That's what is so important for people to understand.
- [15:22]
A
What has that meant for you in working on the show? So to be an executive producer of a show that is telling your story. I'll just kind of humble brag of like, you turned down lots of people. Yes, but you said yes. You know, I mean, it was like, thank God for Taylor Morgan, my executive at the time, who was savvy, to go, yes, let me get to the right people really quickly. And within hours was back to me, like, go for it. Go, go, go. You know?
- [15:54]
B
Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, there's so much, because there's one was that I've been thinking a lot about how these stories are told in the broader world, and one of the things that I think is a true criticism in this case is that the story very quickly became, not what happened to Meredith, my friend who was murdered, but how can we vilify this other young woman who's adjacent to her? And I think that that is deeply, like, it became a story of a scandal, not a story of the pursuit of truth. Because I think one of the sort of crazy things about this story, this story, is that pretty early on we know what actually happened. And, you know, we provide that context in our story, and then we talk about how it got out of control, and we show what it's like to be living inside of a perfect storm and how there's universal resonance to that. So I think one of the things that I really was hoping to do with this show was invite storytellers to consider how they're telling stories and what are the consequences of. Of taking ownership and authorship of other people's worst experiences. So being an executive producer on the show, being a writer on the show.
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A
Like, you know, like, yes, kj, right. Like, invited you to co write episode eight, the finale.
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B
Grateful for her for that because so many other people had been authoring my experience for so long, and she really recognized the value in allowing me to be a part of the authoring of this work and then allowing me to be there in the room with these other incredible writers who all brought their talents and interests and specialties to the conversation. It was such a beautiful experience and one that I hope other people in our situation can be invited into that conversation. Because historically, the way that these stories are told is without our participation, without our input. So I felt a deep responsibility to do that well and to do that right. Another thing that I'm thinking about, though, like, at the time, all of this is happening at, like, at the time, like, I had just given birth to my daughter, and, like, the entire, like, as soon as I got pregnant, I became very afraid that not only was I going to be trapped under you know, this false story that had taken over my life, but that. That, like, dark cloud was going to trail, like, was going to follow the umbilical cord down and be a hovering shadow over my daughter's life. And I suddenly felt this deep, deep sense of urgency to, like, figure it out and make certain choices that we depict in the show of what it means to figure it out. And so. And doing this show is. Part of that process is like, really owning. Owning and honoring the people who lived this experience. Like, one of the things I really want is that everyone who has been directly touched by this experience to feel seen and recognized for the real people they were, instead of, like, the little ideas of people that we were diminished to.
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A
Right.
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B
And like, honoring that. Yeah.
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A
I mean, and it's. It's. It's interesting because I think one of the. One of the riches that you brought to the process, you know, was how important it was to you and to all of us. Right.
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B
To.
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A
To make sure not only that there was dimensionality to all the people, not only that we were framing the story, helping people understand. How does this happen? Bias. You know, I think another thing we.
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B
Have in common, these stories of women being sort of pitted against each other in, like, the victim's race. Like, the public sort of wants to take two women and, like, pit them against each other and say, who's the real victim? And it's just like, why can't we all. Why there's. Yeah, we are all victims of this situation. Like, we. Why are we being pitted against each other in such, like, in such a big and obvious way and as tools for someone else's agenda? I think, also. Which is really frustrating. Yeah.
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A
Phyllis Chesler has this, like, interesting things. She said that women are not immune to misogyny. And so I wonder, do you feel like, in what you're saying that. That. That the pitting happens, you know, not only from men in the patriarchy, but also in ways from the sort of internalized misogyny.
- [21:09]
B
Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, I remember coming home and reading an article that had been written back when I was still going through the trials and everything. And it was by this author who was a young feminist writer who said, where are all the feminists in the Amanda Knox case? Like, what. What is going on? Why are people just letting. Why are the feminists just letting this young woman be ripped to shreds over, like, sexist narratives that are not proven by any kind of evidence? And it reminds me a little bit of, you know, the show that we have that we made together talks about not just this bad thing that happened to me, but also the relationship that I've developed with the people who put me through this experience. And one of the things that I think is true is there's a lot of focus put on my prosecutor, who is a old Italian man who has certain ideas about womanhood, about Americans versus Italians. He's coming to this case with all of these sets of biases, but he's not the only one. And in fact, the head of the homicide division in Perugia was a woman, a woman who very early on targeted me. And I think that especially it's complicated by the Americans versus the Europeans vibe of it, but there were absolutely people who were directly responsible for my wrongful conviction, who were women. And on the outside of it, like some of the, you know, biggest bloggers and writers who were talking about student killer Amanda Knox, were women. And, you know, a lot of them to this day have not, like, acknowledged being wrong or apologized or shown any kind of remorse for having completely torn down an innocent young girl for the sake of a headline. You know, I think that's interesting. The Netflix documentary shows, you know, one journalist who's a man who very obviously is bringing misogynistic narratives to the forefront and seems utterly unapologetic about it.
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A
Yeah.
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B
And he wasn't the only one. He was surrounded by women who were doing the same. And I think that's. That's one of those shocking things about a story like the ones that we've been through.
- [23:40]
A
I think it is. And I mean, I experienced that, too, in different ways. And I think, for me, while not acceptable, it was easier for me to understand because of the political layer of this. And so that there was this. I think the feminists were caught in this position of, here is this powerful president who is, quote, unquote, good to women.
- [24:07]
B
Right.
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A
And the Democrats are in power at that time. And so it made it harder, I think, to follow the path that would have been if it hadn't been a Democratic president.
- [24:23]
B
Right.
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A
If I had been a Republican, if it had been in a Republican administration, I think we would have seen something different, very different. I know, for me, that the MeToo movement sort of being ushered in in 2017, that that opened doors for people to evaluate what happened to me through a different lens. Do you feel like the conversations that happened around that have impacted how people have seen you as well, like, this idea of around headlines or, you know, certain things or didn't touch it?
- [25:01]
B
I mean, I was fascinated and deeply invested in MeToo for a number of reasons. One is because one thing that I, as an advocate for criminal justice reform, like, I really, really care about trying. And this is something that I've seen, like, I see, once again, victims pitted against each other when it comes to criminal justice reform issues.
- [25:26]
A
Oh, interesting.
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B
We're victims of crime, are pitted against victims of the criminal justice system.
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A
Okay.
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B
And so wait, wait, wait.
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A
Sorry. Unpack that for me.
- [25:35]
B
So people who are. Who are victims of crime, assault, you know, rape, murder.
- [25:40]
A
Right.
- [25:41]
B
Pitted against people who are wrongly convicted. Okay, right. So, like, there's oftentimes what I see in criminal justice reform conversations like this. Like, this happens to me when I'm, like, on the floor of the Washington state legislature trying to pass laws that would protect innocent people in interrogation rooms, for example, they'll bring in a victim's rights advocate to come counter argue why innocent people shouldn't be protected in the interrogation rooms. Because we need to protect the victims of actual criminals, guilty people, more than we need to protect innocent people who might be interrogated by police officers. There's this tension that. And there's this impulse to constantly sort of pit people against each other. And when the MeToo movement happened, a part of me was celebrating. Yes. Like, we're finally seeing, you know, like, all of these subtle ways that women get, you know, subtle and overt ways that women get victimized and then disbelieved or diminished. The pain and trauma that they've gone through is diminished. We're seeing that celebrated. We're seeing people review the way women have been, you know, called sluts or, you know, whatever.
- [26:53]
A
Right.
- [26:53]
B
We're reexamining that, and people were re. Exam Beginning to re. Examine me in. In light. But then on the flip side of it, I was seeing a lot of my friends in the wrongly convicted circles say, yes, we should believe victims, but also, it's still evidence, still matters. And so, like, how do we have a conversation that's nuanced around that which doesn't pit victims who have, you know, there's no zero sum to victimhood. Everyone has gone through trauma. Like, when you're an innocent person wrongly accused, and you're an innocent person who gets raped or abused, like, these are traumatic things, and everyone's trauma should not be diminished. Like, how do we hold those things together and how do we come together to rec. To, like, mutually recognize each other's victimhood and a path forward that protects everyone. I think that, for me, was a really interesting moment, and I found myself sort of like, brought into the conversation as both an indirect victim of crime and a direct victim of the criminal justice system. I'm an indirect victim of. Of crime because a man broke into my house and murdered my roommate, and I had to come home and call the police. Like, that was me. I was a indirect victim of this man's crime. And I'm not, you know, anti. Like, a lot of people think I might be anti, you know, criminal justice and anti law enforcement. I'm not.
- [28:20]
A
Right.
- [28:20]
B
I'm. I'm those. The first who called the police. The problem was that in that particular situation, my faith and trust in the police was betrayed. Do I think that that happens in every situation? No. Do I think that there are ways that we can better protect innocent people from, you know, some kind of, like, overreach of law enforcement? Yes. Do I also think that law enforcement can better protect victims and indirect victims of crime? Yes. Yeah. Let's have a nuanced conversation.
- [28:52]
A
You know, I mean, that's sort of where my head was going, is just the. I don't know if you have thoughts on it or have heard from others of how do we have. How do we have these more contextualized conversations? How do we have these more nuanced conversations? And so, like, I hear you saying those things and. And I agree 1000%. And then there's another part of me that's like, how the fuck does that happen?
- [29:18]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. And I think that. Okay, so let's get into some potential, like, ideas. I think that one thing that law enforcement should give up is they. Right now, there's a lot of things that happen behind closed doors, and a lot of things that they both do and decide to do behind closed doors are not fully transparent about their methods or their means. And I think that that's. It's important for all of us to have trust in the system, for us to be. To have access to what is happening behind closed doors, both for the sake of, you know, the victims of crime and potential victims of criminal justice. I think that one of the things that law enforcement should spend more time doing is being trauma informed, understanding psychology. I think there's a lack of training in regards to understanding trauma and how people respond to trauma, both as victims and also as, you know, potential perpetrators. Like, they're like, people looked at me, for instance, and my trauma response and assumed guilt. I was an innocent person who was having a trauma response. And because the police were not informed and not transparent, they pursued the case the way that it did, and I got railroaded in the process. So I think that there's, I think communication between victims rights advocates and criminal justice system advocates is really important. I think that everyone is actually working towards the same. Same thing which is having a criminal justice system that acknowledges truth, that protects the rights of individuals, and, and is going to be solution finding. And I, I think that's the one thing that's like a key sort of missing piece is I think that a lot of our criminal justice system and our society, honestly, which is like a. I think our criminal justice system is sort of representative in a way of our broader society. It's so intensely focused on fault finding instead of solution finding. And for me, I think it's a subtle shift. It doesn't mean that there aren't consequences for bad actions. Of course not. But it does mean that the shift in perspective is one where we are more victim forward. For example, like, I think our criminal justice system is obsessed with perpetrators, and victims are just sort of used as means in order to go after perpetrators. And I think that, like, one of the things the MeToo movement showed and recognized was that whether or not these women found, you know, accountability through the criminal justice system, they were still suffering the consequences of their trauma and they were not getting the support that they needed. They, they. They were feeling alone. Yeah. And that's why everyone needed to come together and say, actually, me too, and actually I'm here for you. And here, like, I mean, you know.
- [32:19]
A
Tarana Burke had started it, Right. Ten years earlier as a movement, before it was online. And I think that, you know, that was what she was trying to instill and bake into a movement which when it collided with the Internet, it did explode in this very powerful way. But I agree, I think one of the things I found or that concerned me with it, with the movement, was just the amount of trauma that we were sort of asking people to step into.
- [32:51]
B
By here, you are just eating your breakfast, like, ah, right.
- [32:55]
A
But I mean, but I mean also too, of the bravery of people coming forward, you know, and what it means to sort of step into this legal system and the avenues for help are not provided in the same way. I mean, my dream is to kind of have emotional urgent care centers.
- [33:14]
B
I love that.
- [33:14]
A
Making emotional trauma, you know, the same, giving it the same weight that we do physical trauma in our world, you know, and so I think we would.
- [33:25]
B
And that would be huge for criminal justice, because the num. I mean, just the people that I've met in prison, very often, the vast Majority of them were not psychopaths. They were people in distress who were impulsively making bad decisions, but in the moment, thinking, I'm doing what I need to do to preserve myself. Like, that was the vast. And, like, a lot of them, like, I met women who murdered their children because they were suffering from, you know, postpartum depression and fricking lost their minds. And, like, they did not have an emotional urgent care center to help them deal with their emotions. And instead, they acted the way that they did. And I think that would be huge. I think that. I love that idea. I'm a huge proponent for meditation. And, you know, my. My favorite app is Waking Up. In case anyone is curious. The Waking up app is the best.
- [34:24]
A
And that is Sam Harris's, right?
- [34:26]
B
Yeah, that's Sam Harris's. And it's so good. I actually have a series of lectures on there about, like, resilience. But, like, the point being that I think it's true that when people are in distress, when people are hurting, it's not just a physical thing. It is a deep, existential, emotional, psychological thing. And we should be able to go somewhere to seek support and help and knowledge of how to understand and access these emotions in a productive and positive way, because otherwise, they break you. And broken people are unpredictable.
- [35:05]
A
Interesting. Yeah, that's very interesting. You know, I'm sitting here and watching you talking about the advocacy work, and you're full and you're whole.
- [35:20]
B
Yeah.
- [35:20]
A
And I was thinking about when I met you, so in 2017, and you were just about to do your very first public talk.
- [35:32]
B
Yeah.
- [35:32]
A
And you and your then boyfriend, now husband, Chris, like, you know, we all came and met, and I was a.
- [35:40]
B
Very different person back then. Yeah. I mean, I was the same person, but I was a fragile person.
- [35:46]
A
Right, right. And so it just is. It's really nice to see you. Filled back up with you.
- [35:54]
B
Thank you. You know, filled back up with me. And, like, you came into my life at a moment when I really needed you. I didn't know anyone who had ever reclaimed their narrative, who had resurfaced after the world tried to bury them. Like, I didn't. Like, your Vanity Fair articles were some of the only things that I had ever seen of someone like me. Like, you know, one of the things that's kind of tough. And, like, I. I didn't. I didn't choose to be one of the most famous wrongly convicted people out there. And there are people who have been wrongly convicted who have been through way worse than I have. And, like, I. It's not like I can't control that. Like, some people, you know, went through even worse things than me, and nobody knows about them. And they're dealing with other cards. Sort of associated traumas related to that. That feeling of, like, no one cares that I went to prison for 40 years.
- [36:54]
A
Right.
- [36:54]
B
That's a other sort of trauma. Right. But there is, like, a sort of special thing where that I was experiencing that I didn't quite know how to even talk to, like, some of my wrongly convicted friends about because they hadn't been vilified on a global scale, you.
- [37:12]
A
Know, like, at such a young age.
- [37:14]
B
Well, a lot of them in a young. Were young when it happened, but, like, global scale. And. And so I did feel a little bit like I didn't have the perfect person to talk to, necessarily.
- [37:28]
A
Yes, I know what that feels like.
- [37:30]
B
Exactly. There wasn't anybody in prison, and I could talk to them about trial, and I could talk to them about being, you know, like, having someone put horrible words in your mouth and talk about how you tortured your friend to death. Like, then when you didn't do it, like, those, like. Like, there was an unspoken bond, but there was that other layer of, like, but everyone knows who I am. And some, like, you can go to the grocery store and people don't necessarily recognize you. That's not the case with me. And I think the other thing that, like, really mattered to me in that moment was up until that moment, every time I felt like I tried to go out there and talk and make connections with people, I felt like it didn't matter what I said. People had already decided what they thought, and they were seeing what they wanted to see. And I was at a point where I felt like giving up. They're not. No one. No one actually cares what I think. No one actually cares how I feel. I don't matter to them. And my husband was trying to convince me that that was not the case, but I was scared. Yeah. And then I heard that you were going to be speaking at the same event, and I was like, omg, I need to talk to her, because she knows. And I feel like I didn't even have, like, the right questions for you. You were just like, here's some tea. Do you have therapy? Yeah, you got this. But, like, you know, think. And you were right. Like, think about what you're going to say and know it. Like, know it in your body, because you know what it's like when you can't say the wrong thing because everyone is going to hold it against you. If every word that you ever say is always being twisted, is always being used as a source of something used against you, like that will silence you.
- [39:30]
A
Yeah.
- [39:30]
B
Yeah.
- [39:31]
A
And so it's interesting because, you know, I had experiences like that from very different reasons. And I have found as we're preparing to go out to, you know, to birth this baby into the world, I am having so much panic about saying the wrong thing or. And that there's. I'm not. I wouldn't just be letting down myself. It's like this whole team of people who've worked so hard and you and your story and all of these things. I think even when you go through something on such a big public stage, it's also a reminder to me for people who go through trauma privately, you know, of this thing of, like, something we don't talk about enough is how the switch doesn't go off one day. You know, you're not, quote, unquote, over your trauma. It's always sort of there. You know, My therapist is a trauma psychiatrist and, you know, has just worked so hard with me to accept that, you know, the number of times where it's like, I'm here again, what the fuck? Like, how is that possible? How I thought I had done better. I thought I was fixed from this or have this emotional experience, whatever those things are. And I don't wanna say benefit, because there's not a benefit to the kinds of experiences we've had. If you had to say there's a benefit. There's like. By talking about these things publicly, I imagine you hear this too. I hear from people that it's helped them feel less alone.
- [41:04]
B
Yes.
- [41:05]
A
Even when the puzzle pieces look completely different, it's still a puzzle of trauma. And so I think there. There is that value. And I don't know about.
- [41:16]
B
For you.
- [41:17]
A
For me, it's. Sometimes that's like a life raft for me because there are a lot of times that I get really scared about going out and doing something, or I get scared of failing. I get scared of losing everything. I get scared of a misstep.
- [41:36]
B
And rightfully so, I think, because stories like ours show that everything can be taken away from you. And whether or not you do something right or wrong, even, like, that's how, like, powerless we are. And I agree with you. I think one thing that I have found to be deeply healing for me is learning that what I went through resonates with people who have not been through what I went through, but have been through their own thing. I Do think. And something that what you just were talking about actually reminded me of an essay I just put out in my substack about recognizing the difference between discomfort and danger and how like, one of.
- [42:15]
A
That'S really interesting you all.
- [42:16]
B
And one of the consequences of going through a trauma is not only do you feel like you can't trust the world anymore, but you also feel like you can't Trust yourself.
- [42:27]
A
Yeah, 100%.
- [42:29]
B
And you become sort of like psychologically colorblind so that, like red flags blur into green and you can't tell the difference.
- [42:38]
A
You kind of gaslight yourself.
- [42:40]
B
You gaslight yourself because you've been gaslit and you don't know what to lean on anymore. And so I think that one of the things that also is beneficial about telling these stories is talking about, okay, so here's the traumatic thing that happened. But now here's how I rediscover my inner compass. Here's how I rediscover how to tell the difference between something that is genuinely dangerous that I should move away from, and here is something that is uncomfortable, but that I should move towards because it has the potential to change me for the better. So what can break me? What can make me grow? These things are important to encounter in life and to know the difference.
- [43:26]
A
Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. Are you looking for the perfect summer escape? Get ready to dive into Rich Girl Summer, the new Audible original from Lily Chu that'll have you swooning poolside. Broadway sensation Philippa Hsu returns for her fifth Lily Chu narration, but this time with an exciting twist. She's joined by her real life husband, the talented Steven Pasquale. So picture this. Toronto's luxurious cottage country, where the champagne flows and secrets run deep. Heroine Valerie is a struggling event planner who suddenly finds herself playing the role of a socialite's long lost daughter. But here's where it gets interesting. While she's trying to keep her fake identity under wraps, she's uncovering family secrets and falling hard for Nico, the family assistant who's impossible to read. Between maintaining her cover, solving mysteries and navigating an unexpected romance, Valerie Summer is about to become way more complicated than she bargained for. So, ready to escape into this entertaining romantic comedy, listen to Rich Girl Summer, available now on Audible. Visit audible.com richgirl summer. That's audible.com/richgirl summer. How did this come to you? When and how did you find this inner compass and the meditation practice and all of those?
- [44:59]
B
Yeah, you know, because I didn't. I didn't really have a meditation practice prior to prison, which meant that I didn't really have it in prison. Like, I was in my. My jail cell doing yoga and doing exercise and reading a lot. Like, that was. And also writing a lot. I was writing constant letters to somebody. So that's how I was externalizing my process. I think the thing that was interesting about prison was a lot of it was just being okay with waiting because I wasn't able to do a lot. Like, my inner compass wasn't really tested in prison because I was just stuck in a room for years without, like, with nowhere to go and nothing to do except for what I was able to provide for myself and, you know, unable to open even a door. So there's, like, a. One thing about prison is you sort of learn helplessness because of how little you actually have control over. And that, again, can distort your inner compass because you're. When you get out, you. You're suddenly sort of inundated with tasks that you have to accomplish. And some of them are marvelous, like opening a door, you know? But even something as simple as, like, going grocery shopping becomes, like, this big, overwhelming task because you've. You're just out of practice. I think my inner compass was really tested coming out of prison when I was suddenly supposed to be a free and normal person again. But I felt other. Anything but free and normal. But I was also suddenly under a new kind of scrutiny because now I wasn't hidden behind a wall. I was available for anyone to see and to stalk me, which is what was happening.
- [46:52]
A
Right.
- [46:52]
B
And I think that. And this is something that is both true of our show and of my most recent book also, which goes more in depth with this is the flailing that a person does when they are. When they've had the rug pulled out from them. And again, they don't know who to grasp onto what and who they are, who they are even, and what they want and what they need. Like, these are all things you have to rediscover in part by just trying. And I went, you know, like you. I went back to school. That was, like, the immediate thing. I was like, I know that I want to graduate college, right? So that's what I'm gonna do. That's the thing. I know. And in the process of doing that one familiar thing and discovering all the ways that it felt unfamiliar, like, my relationship with other students was suddenly very different. My relationship with every. Like, even just writing assignments, you know, I'm not writing explicitly about prison or anything. And yet.
- [47:50]
A
Or just the judgment.
- [47:51]
B
The judgment.
- [47:52]
A
I mean, I don't know. For me, I had a lot of anxiety about being judged.
- [47:57]
B
And you're sharing your work with other students. What are they going to do with your work? Like, you. There's this like, terrified feeling of being so vulnerable, even just doing the most basic things, like taking a creative writing class, you know, like, so all. Again, you're sort of afraid that everything's going to be used against you. And. And you're also have these, you know, these internal triggers that are. That you're not even familiar with. Like, suddenly I found myself incapable of being in any kind of crowd. Like, I would want to go to museum. Can't go to a museum because I'm going to have a panic attack. I have a literal panic attack in a museum. And now I can't do that anymore. And so how do you find what's. And like. And that part of the inner compass is realizing, well, I feel unsafe. I feel like this is a danger, but actually it's just a discomfort. And like, what is actually dangerous and what is actually. What is actually.
- [48:50]
A
Did you, like, were there kinds of books you read? In my head. You're sort of a stoic in some ways.
- [48:57]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [48:57]
A
So, but I don't, you know, in that sense of how did you hone your inner compass so that you felt if you feel you've gotten to a place where you kind of lean more towards trusting it versus not.
- [49:11]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think reading absolutely helped. So even in prison, I read like, Man's Search for Meaning, which I think was really helpful for navigating, especially the prison environment, that feeling of learned helplessness and how to grasp onto a sense of meaningfulness and purposefulness, even in a place of utter helplessness. And then carrying that metaphor into the life that you have and trying to recognize that you shouldn't be living the life that you think you should have, just live the life you actually have. And I. I know I learned that from making the mistake of trying to live the life that I felt like I should have been living instead of the life that I had. So a lot of it for me was trial and error. Meeting other people was. I think I. I went a route of, like, encountering people. So encountering people like you, encountering other wrongly convicted people. Recognizing, first of all that I'm not alone and that there's even some. Somewhere to look for wisdom. Like, I think one of the things that sort of inhibited me first, like when I first came home, was this feeling that no one would understand me, right? Like, no one could give me guidance because no one knew what I was going through. I was figuring it out on my. Even my own family didn't know what I was going through, and I had to figure it out by myself. And the only way that I could think to do that was by timid, fragile, trial, by error. And then I met other people who had been through similar experiences or even, you know, I made a friend in my poetry class who really resonated with, like, the poetry that I was writing, which, again, was not explicitly about prison, but it had, like, I was talking in a roundabout way about that learned helplessness in my poetry. And one day she approached me and was like, oh, my God, you're Amanda Knox. And inside me, I, like, felt my, you know, my heart fall from here to here. And I was afraid of, like, oh, my God, now what does this person think of me? And she immediately saw me probably go completely pale and was like, no, no, no, Amanda, like, don't. Like, I. You know, she said I was gang raped when I was a kid. Wow. And the feeling that you're talking about, I know that feeling, even though I haven't done the same. Like, I haven't been through the same thing you have. Like, I feel like I know what you're feeling and you're not alone. And, like, that was a shifting moment for me where I was like, okay, there's other people. There is wisdom out there. And again, a little bit trial by error, but, like, ultimately, coming to meditation, coming to stoicism, not through the traditional routes, because those tend to be fairly, bro. Yeah, but, like, sort of realizing that there. There are deep truths about how the obstacle is the way, and, like, there is the moving towards. The thing that scares you is the thing that diminishes its power over you. Like, these are all, like, stoic truths that have deep resonance with me. And I think. I think we're in part informed by the fact that I was an athlete when I was a kid. So, like, I recognized that some things that are good for me, I also feel painful in the moment. But, like, ultimately, you are, if you know what you're striving at and if you know what. How to get something from a painful experience, like, you will get it. Like, I knew. I knew that I'm very good at enduring. Like, if there's one skill that I have, it is that I can endure. And so what do I take from that? What do what. What guidance does that give me as I learn how to navigate and rediscover my inner compass is like, okay, I know that I can endure. I also know that I'm not alone and that I should reach out and ask for help. And then, of course, making mistakes that help me to recognize that helped me to recalibrate my inner compass. And having a world that allows me to make some mistakes so that I can recalibrate my inner compass.
- [53:28]
A
I struggled. I still struggle, but I struggled a lot early on with. I think I held a construct of my mistakes are expensive.
- [53:37]
B
Oh, yeah. I was afraid I would be sent back to prison for making mistakes. Yeah. Yeah.
- [53:42]
A
So, I mean, I really. That resonates so much with me.
- [53:45]
B
One of the big reasons that I meditate is because I do have anger and I do have sadness. Like, I don't want to make a show that villainizes my prosecutor because I don't want to be a person who harms another person. I want to be a person who sees another person and is willing to bear witness to their fragile and true humanity.
- [54:10]
A
Yeah, it's interesting. I think for me, what I experience is I have this focus on, like, moving a conversation forward. And so because I think in many ways, I'm not as in touch with my anger, it took me a very long time to come into my anger.
- [54:28]
B
Interesting. Really?
- [54:30]
A
Yeah, it was.
- [54:31]
B
I was so pissed off immediately. As soon as I got out, I was like, why am I so pissed off?
- [54:35]
A
Well, you know, you were wrongfully convicted and stuck in, you know, prison for four years. But I, you know, I was in a more metaphorical prison. But I think that because I had made a choice, I didn't make a choice to step. You know, there's a choice of, I'm going to rob a bank. Okay. That is a choice that you step into knowing, like, what you're doing, what the consequences are, that there. There's the likelihood of that. That's not the kind of bad choice that I made, but my choice and the consequences and the blast radius of how many people were hurt and that this consumed our country for, you know, not by my choice, certainly, but I think it was not really until I came out of graduate school. You know, the whole reason I went to graduate school was in part to try to put myself back on the developmental path that I was on. You know, when I. The internship was supposed to be a pit stop on my way to graduate school, you were like, ah, right. I mean, I often joke where it's like, Adam Grant had this great question he'd put on Twitter when it was Still Twitter of like, you know, what's the worst career advice you've gotten? And mine was, you know, a White House internship will be great on your resume.
- [55:57]
B
You know, so study abroad. It'll expand your horizons.
- [56:00]
A
Exactly.
- [56:01]
B
It did.
- [56:01]
A
Yeah. Exactly. So. But I think it was going to graduate school, so trying to get back on this developmental path and also trying to build a scaffolding upon which a new identity. Like, I could hang this new identity on and get a job. And I think most of my friends at the time, too. My best friend from college, Catherine, she'll kill me for saying this, but it's true. You know, she would always tease me, you know, even after everything happened, she's like, it was always gonna be hard for you to find a husband. So. Which is great. You know, and so. But I think that there was this. If I could just cross the Rubicon into normalcy, that then everything else that I wanted and had wished for my life would fall into place.
- [56:54]
B
I had these same exact thoughts. Going back to college after prison.
- [56:58]
A
Yeah. And it ended. And when I came out of graduate school and I couldn't get a job, that was part of which I think you experienced as well. And that was when I really started to understand what I had lost. But that was almost 10 years after. So that was, you know, 2007.
- [57:20]
B
Is grad school is that long these days?
- [57:22]
A
Nope, it's not. I just didn't go until I was. Yeah. So I went to grad school when I was, I think, 32. 32, 33.
- [57:32]
B
Right.
- [57:33]
A
So, yeah.
- [57:34]
B
So you're still sort of living in this, like, illusion that. That if you just got back on that, you see it. Like, I was like, immediate go back to college, because I wanted immediately to get back my life that I had before, be on the track that I was on before. Like, oh, that detour in prison. Just a detour. Like, here we go. Back to being me again.
- [57:55]
A
Yeah.
- [57:55]
B
And it was very. I think, the immediacy of it. Like, I was just so desperately clinging for something that was familiar that I went immediately back into school. And it became immediately apparent to me that I was no longer just the anonymous college student that I wanted to be. Yeah.
- [58:12]
A
I. I had this one thought in here, which, if it feels uncomfortable to you, like, we do not have to go there. It just was something in that way of. Not a lot of people have this experience. And I was curious about it.
- [58:27]
B
Yeah, sure.
- [58:28]
A
So, which was. But it was interesting to me. Cause I was thinking about, for myself, having been labeled this blowjob Queen, you know, I was like lucky blowjob queen and portly pepper pot, like two very, you know.
- [58:44]
B
Yeah.
- [58:45]
A
But kind of what it meant for me to begin to reclaim my sexuality after that had happened. And so I was thinking about the kinds of things that I went through in the. And still sometimes actually, you know, almost 28 years on, go through of, you know, what it means to kind of bring those experiences like into the bedroom, you know, I mean I joke around. Thankfully no one ever asked me to wear a beret, you know, but there's.
- [59:18]
B
Can you imagine?
- [59:20]
A
I've had some other pretty weird things. I just like, I didn't know if you had because there are not a lot of people who've gone through this.
- [59:29]
B
Yeah, I didn't know if that vilified sexually. Yeah.
- [59:33]
A
If that had impacted you and was a part of the healing that you had to go through.
- [59:38]
B
I mean, I'm curious to know if you would define that as sexual trauma because it just occurred to me very recently that that might actually be a form of sexual trauma. Like I wasn't physically raped, but my sexuality was used against me, was turned against me. And I, I have no doubt that the, the vilification of me, the punishment of me was sexual as well. There was something pornographic about the way that I was accused and vilified. And I think that some ways that I talk about this in the past is that people were projecting not just their fears onto me, but their fantasies and, and I came to represent not just a archetype of violence, but a sexual archetype in people's minds. And yeah, that's really intimidating. How do I navigate that as a 20 year old? And I look back first of all today on my 20 year old self and I'm like, oh my God, I was a child. I was, I was a sexualized child. And yes, technically I was an adult and capable of consenting and all of that. But like I was a child and I had zero context and I had zero knowledge of even what I like. You know, I had so little experience and so little self knowledge as, as a sexual person. And I was scared to be intimate with people. You know, like I, to this day, you know, like there are, there are ways of expressing sexuality that in my brain are closed off to me because of how charged my history is with, with sexual trauma. And I'm thinking about that just now as I'm entering a new stage of my life where I'm in very comfortable with my sexuality. Like I'm suddenly like feeling I'M an adult. I'm a. You know, I'm 38 years old. I have a partner and a loving partner. And the re. And I only say this is. It's only recently that I've had the. The question of, like, you know, what am I curious and interested about that I just did not allow myself to even be curious and interested about, like, post coming out of prison because there's just no safe way for me to be that intimate and open with people. I just cannot trust people that way. I only dated people that I knew from before prison. Like anyone that I dated and have dated very few people after coming out of prison. They were all people that I knew from before, people who knew me before prison, before the accusation. I did not trust new people. My husband today is like the guy who I met post prison who, like, you know, and I. In my book, I talk about hooking up with one other person who I did not know from beforehand, who turned out to be a con artist who had a history of assault and domestic violence and that. And then like, so talking about that inner compass again of like, what dangers did I put myself in and what. How did I, like, put myself at the mercy of a new person who I thought I could trust but then couldn't, like, because of the, the sexual trauma of my past, like, I'm thinking, who can I trust anyway? It's all confused. And for more. For more information, see my book free My Search for Meaning. But yes, I get a lot of credit for being a really resilient person. But. But I think that what's more accurate is that I'm a very lucky person, that I've had people in my life who have really, really recognized my value when my value was in question, have, like, realized my worth and like, painstakingly reminded me of that fact when it felt like the rest of the world was telling me that I had no value, no worth, no future.
- [64:08]
A
It's very hard to hold on to a sense of self when very loud voices are telling you.
- [64:16]
B
Yeah.
- [64:17]
A
In many ways and places how you should see yourself.
- [64:20]
B
Yeah, for sure. You feel like a crazy person. Like, am. It's just me against the whole world. I think, like, the whole world probably knows better than me, you know, like. And yet.
- [64:30]
A
Well, especially when you're young. Yeah, especially when you're young and, you know, you haven't had the opportunities to really fully develop who you are as a person. You know, I. I was raised in la, but went to college in Portland, Oregon. And I felt like I found so much of my soul there. But even then, what the fuck did I know?
- [64:56]
B
You know?
- [64:57]
A
So it's.
- [64:58]
B
There's no guidebook, really, for this? No, we should write a guidebook.
- [65:04]
A
I'd rather tell stories that help ensure it doesn't. Yeah. You know.
- [65:09]
B
Right. Fair. Fair.
- [65:10]
A
But, you know, I like to kind of round out the interviews, asking people if there's something that they are currently working on reclaiming. You know, I know that, like, the show is a big.
- [65:26]
B
Yeah. I mean, one thing that I'm reclaiming is my sense of humor. So. Yeah.
- [65:35]
A
Like, what role has humor played for you?
- [65:39]
B
Well, I've always had a sense of humor, and I feel like, again, one of the ways that I'm very lucky is that I automatically or intuitively sort of try to. I see the absurd in the situation and I laugh about it. So for me, one of the things that I love is, and I truly believe is like, tragedy plus time equals comedy.
- [66:01]
A
Yeah.
- [66:02]
B
Thanks for the great convo. Oh, yeah. I want my crystal.
- [66:06]
A
You will get it, girl. You will get it. I promise. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our main managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.