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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. On today's episode I spoke with author, entrepreneur, founder of the Forward Party and former presidential candidate Andrew Yang. You might remember Andrew from his 2020 presidential run when he brought the concept of a universal basic income into the political discourse. As you can imagine, the idea of $1,000 a month into the pockets of every American really got people talking. And even though he didn't win the presidential ticket, that hasn't stopped him from generating idea after idea for how to make our democracy better. Some might even say trying to help us reclaim democracy. So I wanted to talk to Andrew because he has this infectious optimism even in this chaotic time we're living in. It's like hope and humanity mixed with intellect and innovation. You'll see what I'm talking about. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to. And thanks so much for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. Love getting lost in heart pounding stories. Audible delivers thrills of every kind. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming. Thank you to our exclusive fashion partner, Reformation. I honestly can't tell you how many of their pieces have become my go to favorites. Their sweaters have this incredible way of being both polished and comfortable. And in fact, when we record my own Reclaiming story for the podcast, I was wearing the same Reformation sweater as the producer interviewing me, but thankfully we had the Clara on in different colors. Their clothes work for all moments in my life, whether it's a casual day out or a more formal occasion. I always find myself reaching for my Reformation pieces. Visit reformation.com to see why. They're one of my favorite brands for stylish and sustainable fashion. Hi Andrew.
- [02:20]
Andrew Yang
Hey Monica. Good to see you again.
- [02:23]
Monica Lewinsky
You too. I was thinking about that we had, I think initially connected on Twitter and then I met you and your wife in person when you spoke at TED last year and gave such a dynamic talk that was.
- [02:36]
Andrew Yang
Oh, thank you.
- [02:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, very persuasive. What interested me was when I was kind of cooking up the idea for this podcast. I really wanted a very elastic definition of reclaiming and so that it wasn't necessarily just a kind of comeback story per se. But you know, for me it's my reclaiming, my narrative and my voice. And for some people it's health or a family heirloom. And you really have done this amazing thing in that you're trying to help us. You're trying to.
- [03:11]
Andrew Yang
That's very sweet of you.
- [03:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaim, you know, decency and democracy.
- [03:17]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, it's certainly a goal. You know, and when you mentioned my TED Talk, you know, I had a very, very clear ambition with it and message, but it didn't work. I mean, honestly, it didn't work.
- [03:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Wait, wait, wait, wait. First of all, you really sort of presented these. What I remember from it was you presented these two different areas, one being open primaries. Right. And then the other being the rank choice voting. Voting.
- [03:47]
Andrew Yang
The talk I gave was about how we have very, very negative incentives in our political system. Because if you're an office holder, you imagine that the office holder's job is to make 51% of us happy. The vast majority of the time. That's not actually what their incentive is. Their incentive is to keep the base and the primary electorate happy and off their backs, which typically is like 10% or so of the population. And the numbers I used in the TED talk now I'm going to re. Give my TED Talk now, but that members of Congress nationwide or Congress as a body has a 17% approval rating, but a reelection rate of 94% for individual members because the individual member tends to represent like a district that's quite blue or quite red, and then they have the primary electorate on their side and so then they can coast. And so the argument I made, which is borne out in math because I'm a numbers guy, is that we'd have better incentives for those elected officials if you had an open primary system where people could vote regardless of party and then you had ranked choice voting, because that tends to lead you toward this broad collegial consensus. And to your point, it would improve our politics because all of a sudden you'd be rewarding folks for doing the right thing and working with each other as opposed to right now. It's become very nasty and polarized.
- [05:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I was thinking about with sort of like with what you're saying, the 94% re election rate. Do you think I'm now realizing I'm going to use this whole podcast to pitch all my cockamamie political ideas.
- [05:24]
Andrew Yang
Please, it's your podcast. I mean, no, but they'll get them all eventually.
- [05:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you feel like if we had term limits in Congress that that might shift people's sort of incentive to. For job stability? You know, we can acknowledge the ego and let it be about legacy and so legacy coming from what they're actually accomplishing versus maybe how long they've been in office, which I think sometimes is part of what happens. Right.
- [05:56]
Andrew Yang
Look, I'm pro term limits for a few reasons. Number one, people know that there is something of a gerontocracy in this country, which is our leaders are very, very old. The average member of Congress is, I want to say, 58. The average senator is maybe 64. And that's an average. And so if you look at leadership, it tends to be older than that. So, number one, most Americans are like, hey, I'd like our folks to be a little more representative, but also you'd like them to have this approach of, look, let me get some stuff done and then come home. Because it's not that D.C. is meant to be like a multi decade long career. Unfortunately, in our current system, as soon as you get there, you want to stay there. Your biggest fear is being sent home. I was with one senator whom I love, Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska, who, by the way, voted against some of these cabinet appointees.
- [06:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Well, she's Republican.
- [06:50]
Andrew Yang
Yes, she's a Republican, but she voted to impeach Trump. She's very, very principled. She voted against Pete Hegseth, the rest of it. And then she said, look, I actually like my home and like my family, and if my worst case scenario is I get sent there, I'm fine. But she's highly, highly unusual in that system because most of them really, really don't want to be sent home and kind of cling to office. And I think term limits would change that. But a third argument for why term limits is something we should be looking at is that 3/4 of Americans want it. And so if you believe in will of the people and democracy and the rest of it, and 75% of Americans say, you know, I'd like folks to come home after a certain period of time, we should probably do it.
- [07:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I mean, I actually am a big believer in that. I think the presidency should be 16 year term because I think then that we'd eliminate that middle portion of campaigning for reelection. Right, yeah.
- [07:54]
Andrew Yang
Or, you know, Supreme Court justices, 18 years. I mean, there's absolutely no reason why it should be a lifetime appointment.
- [07:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Agreed, Agreed. Just walking back, you said you were a math guy, but you were a corporate lawyer. So where does the math guy come from? What drew you to corporate law initially?
- [08:10]
Andrew Yang
Sure. So, wow. You want me to nerd out a little bit? Of course. So my dad was or is happily still with us. My dad is a PhD in physics. He generated 69 US patents.
- [08:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [08:24]
Andrew Yang
His main area of innovation was liquid crystal displays, which are what made all the TVs flat and all of our, you know, little screens.
- [08:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Plasma. The plasma. No, that's different.
- [08:36]
Andrew Yang
The technology after plasma.
- [08:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [08:39]
Andrew Yang
My mom has a master's in math and statistics, so I was like a very, very nerdy kid. I did go to law school. I practiced for five whole months before leaving, and then I worked in various small growth companies for a number of years. But natively, you know, I've always liked numbers. I kind of was against the stereotype of folks who went to law school who didn't like math and numbers. I actually kind of always liked them. Like, you know, I like, excel as a program.
- [09:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, you are a nerd, for sure.
- [09:15]
Andrew Yang
You know, I ran for president as a Democratic candidate.
- [09:17]
Monica Lewinsky
So in 2020, you ran and you had had no experience in politics before or.
- [09:22]
Andrew Yang
That is generally correct, yeah. And so it's been a fascinating journey, Monica, because I think that my approach to things is distinct from most political figures because most political figures are personality and narrative driven. And it was a real learning process for me to even be performing in that space. But I'm gonna give you an example of something that the numbers bear out right now very powerfully. The Democrats right now have virtually no path to win a majority of the U.S. senate based upon the map and the numbers. And so right now, if you argue for the Democratic and won't shock anyone, like, I'm no fan of Trump and I endorse Kamala and all these things, but the Democrats just lost Senate seats in Ohio and West Virginia. If you think about it, do you see them getting those seats back anytime soon? No. I mean, those states have gone red. They're down 53, 47 in the Senate. Three of their incumbent senators have just declared they're retiring rather than run again. And the map right now is favorable to Republicans because majority of the country now is red, really. And so the odds of them Somehow reversing a 5347 deficit are essentially zero. There is no Democratic path back to taking a majority of both houses. And so they're not going to be able to pass laws as currently constituted. And whether that makes you happy or sad, I mean, that's just the way the map and the numbers are. So what I've been working on as, to me, it's like the only pragmatic approach is you need a new political entity to contest states like Kansas and Nebraska and Utah and Alaska where a Democrat could not compete. But if you were to have an independent run, they could be competitive.
- [11:24]
Monica Lewinsky
When you're talking about an independent, is it the views that someone holds being more reflective of an independent, or is it that we've become so polarized and so stuck to titles and names and party affiliation and tribes that it could be if that independent had the same policies, almost indistinct from a Democrat. Do you think that makes the difference? Am I making sense? Do you know what I'm saying?
- [11:52]
Andrew Yang
It makes perfect sense. So I mean, if you look at like I went to Brown University, very liberal school, was living and working here in New York, so was a registered Democrat since the 90s, ran for president as a Democrat, didn't think much of it because it was like obvious to me. It's like, you know, But I concluded after some research because I'm kind of a nerd, so I went and looked at the data and the trends and everything and I concluded that the two party system was not working very well and was going to work worse into the future. And so then I said, you know what, like, we need a different approach if we're going to get the results that we want. And so if you were to ask me about any of a host of issues, you know, you could probably find my perspective. But it probably lines up with a Democrat on just about any social issue you could name. Just about, you know, like a lot of the fiscal stuff. It's just I happen to have concluded that the current system is not going to get us there. It's that the current system is actually, you know, diluting popular will through this kind of funhouse mirror system. And the output is something that most of us like, wait a minute, that's like nothing at all what I ordered. But to your point, so an independent can run the gamut. I mean, independents come in all shapes and sizes. I will say though that at this point independents are about 50% of the population and rising. It's maybe 2/3.
- [13:18]
Monica Lewinsky
50%?
- [13:19]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah. If you look it up right now, the Democratic Party, I mean you live in la, so it seems sky high, but the Democratic Party nationally is down to maybe 25% identification. Republican Party's a little bit lower than that. It might be something like 23%. So independents are now 50% and growing. Among young people, it's more like 2/3. 2/3 don't think the two party system works. And so the forward party, what we do is we try and help independent political figures Compete against whichever party is dominant. And we kind of joke about it. It's like independents tend not to like to clump together because they're independents. But what we're trying to do is build, like a collection of independents who want to reform the system.
- [14:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Are you saying that you're kind of an old fashioned moderate Democrat? Is that or it's. No, Your views are different than that.
- [14:17]
Andrew Yang
Well, again, if you were to line me up with an old fashioned moderate Democrat and like, have a punch list of issues, we probably line up on the vast majority of things. I just don't think that the Democratic Party can actually deliver as presently constituted. And if you were to ask, like, whose fault is it? It's like, well, you know, I mean, the fact is there's nothing in the Constitution about any political party. It kind of got invented later and then enforced at the state level. Which is one reason why the reforms that we're looking at. Oh, yeah, like. Like, you know, there's nothing in the Constitution about. By the way, the founding fathers actually hated the idea of political parties generally in the two party system in particular. I think it was John Adams who said a two party system would be a great evil across the land. And I think we're probably living a version of that. So if you look at the way that the two party system first came about and then was implemented and enforced, it's a bunch of rules and regulations at the state level.
- [15:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Mm. Okay, so you ran in 2020, you did not have a political background. What was the period right before you deciding to run?
- [15:23]
Andrew Yang
What the heck did Andrew Yang do before he showed up on the TV screen?
- [15:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, had the Yang gang.
- [15:27]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah, indeed. So corporate lawyer, briefly failed entrepreneur, and then more successful entrepreneur. I guess that's like about a decade. And then I started a nonprofit to help train young entrepreneurs that was operating primarily in Detroit, Cleveland, New Orleans, Baltimore, Birmingham, places like, primarily in the Midwest and the south, which is how I had some insight when Trump won in 2016, that we had done away with 4 million manufacturing jobs that were primarily based in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. Then Trump won all those places because of what we did to those manufacturing communities. So I was a serial entrepreneur do gooder before I turned to politics. And my decision to run for president was born of the decision I made years earlier in 2011 to start an organization called Venture for America. Because my hope was to try and revitalize the American economy through entrepreneurship. And I concluded that with the advent of AI, we were going to need much bigger changes to humanize the economy. And the only way to make those changes would be to get a hold of the federal government. So then I looked and saw what the rules were for running for president and, you know, decided to run at the time, people when I said, I'm running for president, they would respond of. But, you know, how about your family?
- [16:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Like, how was this a big discussion with your wife and your kids?
- [17:01]
Andrew Yang
You know, so you met Evelyn.
- [17:02]
Monica Lewinsky
But she's amazing.
- [17:04]
Andrew Yang
But we joke that I'm lucky and maybe she's lucky that she didn't take it very seriously at first. So she's like, that's nice, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, oh, sure. You know, she says that it got real for her when I quit my job at the time. And I was like, wait, what's going on? But she's obviously been a tremendous partner and champion through it all.
- [17:30]
Monica Lewinsky
I think one of the things I had not heard of universal basic income before you ran, but it had been around for a while as a concept. And I know in your book that you wrote in 2018, I think. Right, yeah. Tell me, remind me.
- [17:46]
Andrew Yang
That's right, that's right. The normal people.
- [17:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes. Well, first of all, can you just, you know, explain universal basic income?
- [17:53]
Andrew Yang
Sure, I would be glad to. So it's an idea that's been around for a long time. Thomas Paine was for it. Martin Luther King actually was advocating for it when he was assassinated. But it's a policy that says every member of a society gets a certain amount of money for basic needs, no questions asked. And so the number I was running on was $1,000 a month. And for folks who want a sense of things, the US economy now is pushing 29 to 30 trillion. It's about $82,000 per person, which means that you have $12,000 per person if you wanted to, and that you would get a lot of the money back in terms of both cost savings and better outcomes in healthcare and education, less on homelessness, less on incarceration. And those institutions are very, very expensive. So I would sat down and worked the numbers and you could easily do it and you'd get most all of the money back, maybe even more if you made some assumptions about business formation and economic growth.
- [19:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, well, and also too, we tend to not put a cost on these things that we can't see or touch in a way, in terms of, I think, like, totally. Yeah, right. Like in terms of mental health and physical health. It is something that makes a lot of sense to me, ubi, and I think about it with AI, yeah.
- [19:27]
Andrew Yang
AI is going to eat the jobs. I mean, it genuinely is. And when I was running on that back then, the farmers of Iowa would look at me and be like, interesting. Yeah. I mean, we're experiencing this mindset of scarcity that, in my opinion, got Donald Trump elected and is tearing families and communities apart in different ways. I'm so glad that. That you. I mean, it doesn't surprise me because you're a very sophisticated, elevated human. But it does break my heart, Monica, that there's so much needless suffering, really. And again, like, when I was running, I was like, look, I can actually show you the numbers. Like, you know, we spend this much on education and incarceration, all these things, and you would end up getting a lot of the value back. But what you said about the intangibles is 100% correct. It's like, what dollar sign would you put on folks feeling good about the future? What. What dollar sign would you put on people feeling like they could be generous with, you know, each other? And the scarcity mindset, in my view, is just getting stronger all the time because AI is decimating a lot of opportunities. You know, there are folks. I'm gonna guess I'm just imagining there are probably some folks who work in media who are listening to this or watching this and they're looking around like, what the heck's going on in the media industry? Like, I'm like, well, like, you're talking, like, making eye contact with your producer right there. So there's just a lot of stuff that is changing. And, you know, we have to evolve very quickly.
- [21:04]
Monica Lewinsky
We've seen this cycle already. Right. With sort of, I think when we had the kind of more the technological revolution coming and people lost their jobs and were not retrained, they then had no purpose. And I think that's part of. With AI, that one of the things that concerns me a lot is around how do we help people have purpose and have dignity too? You know? So I think that kind of this idea of basic needs, I mean, it's a little bit Maslow's hierarchy, right? Like, trying to get those bottom. The bottom part of the triangle.
- [21:37]
Andrew Yang
I'm someone who believes that UBI is inevitable.
- [21:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, that's interesting. Okay.
- [21:43]
Andrew Yang
I mean, you get there one way or another. And right now, in my opinion, we're on, like, the painful, arduous, sad path. It's not like I wake up really, you know, pissed off that I'm not president or something in the sense. It's like, you know, me I'm not. It's like I ran to try and accelerate the end of poverty.
- [22:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [22:01]
Andrew Yang
But the thing that does upset me is that we could be doing so much better than we are, so much more. And instead, we're having these completely unproductive, incoherent arguments about things that are just these tribal symbols. It's like, hey, get mad at this. Like, hey, get animated. Or this is like, guys, like, you know, this is all a result of a malignant system that is rewarding bad actions and bad activities and bad messaging and bad leadership. And if we can break free of that, then we can do so much more. But right now, like, if I come and try and free you, it turns out that, you know, like, you have massive institutions that have, like, very, very vested, entrenched interests and things being as they are, even as they're suffering through it.
- [22:46]
Monica Lewinsky
I remember one of the things that surprised me both in my time in D.C. and then as I kind of accidentally became a public person and saw power through a different lens looking back at D.C. was that from the outside, it looks very much divided by the left and right, but it's really more about power. And so when you sort of get behind those. Behind. I was going to say behind closed doors, I'm like, I don't mean those closed doors that way. But you know that it's really. What you see is that it is. It's the chubby people don't. They don't care. They'll golf with whomever as long as you're sort of. It's about power. And so we get fed a very different narrative outside. And so in terms of what you're talking about, with being fed by the media and all those things. But you. You were saying how you weren't sitting there, you know, you're not sitting there being upset that you didn't win the.
- [23:45]
Andrew Yang
Presidency on my own account. No, I'm not upset. I mean, I have a good life.
- [23:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [23:49]
Andrew Yang
But I am upset on behalf of the people that we could be helping.
- [23:54]
Monica Lewinsky
And is that why you, like, it's very interesting to me that you were able to pivot so quickly to then run for New York City mayor. And I think, like, to me, that's one of the interesting aspects, too, of a reclaiming, in a way, is how do you find that part of yourself again after maybe what might be a big disappointment for some people and move forward?
- [24:19]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. So I come off the trail in 2020, and I am still very concerned about the future. So I write a book. It's called Forward Notes on the Future of Our Democracy. And I conclude our two party system is going to deteriorate and disintegrate and it's going to lead to very, very bad things. Simultaneously, some people are asking me to consider running for mayor of New York City. And initially I'm hesitant. I was like, look, I have this vision for this national movement, but then I sit down with them and they say, look, we polled it. You right now have a 10 point lead. This city has a budget of almost $100 billion. Think of the good you could do. And I was like 100 billion a year. So if I can improve the allocation by only 2%, that's $8 billion worth of good in the next four years. And I start out as a favorite. And then I thought. And then I thought too, Monica. It's like, I win this race, then I turn around and declare myself an independent and that an independent who starts a new party is now the mayor of the biggest city. I was like, okay, I get it. This is something I should do. And you know, that race did not go my way. But then after that, I immediately, you know, to your point, pivoted and was like, well, shoot, like I had. It was funny. I wrote the book. I had a pretty estimable publisher in Crown. And so Crown was like, hey, like, you know, they pretty much put the book on hold during my mayoral run. And then as soon as I came off, they're like, okay, so as soon as possible, we'd like you to do a tour and support this book. So I started for Forward immediately afterwards. But to your point, and I don't know if this is true of most people, I don't know, but I've just been working the whole time. And so if I was running for president, it doesn't go my way, then I'm immediately on cnn, in that case, endorsed Joan was campaigning for him. I went to Georgia to help Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock win. I run for mayor. I lose. I go on tour for the book. And then you and I meet at ted because I've been hitting the reform message for the last several years. So maybe it's just the way I was raised, or maybe it's, you know, because, you know, like, I had people around me who kind of either looked to me or in some cases relied on me because, you know, like, I have a team. I have people that need to get paid.
- [26:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Yeah. I have a friend who had run for office and it had not gone his way and who no I'm kidding. He's a great guy. So one of the few political people that I think, okay, you're, you know, good guy. But, you know, it's just interesting because I think as his friend, you sort of sit and listen and you think, well, where, where do you get your advice? Because the people that are presenting you with things and encouraging you to run are dependent on you as like, that's an ecosystem. It's funny because, I mean, I don't know you well, but just sitting here, I was thinking, I'm like, I'm not sure if you do you have a big enough ego to be like, yeah, I. In a positive way, though, you know, it would be nice to see. Not that I'm saying I'm endorsing you, but, you know, it just is a. I think we have. I think politics has become so much more personality driven than it needs to be.
- [27:40]
Andrew Yang
Oh, yeah. And that was an education for me. Monica. I wanted to name the campaign UBI 2020. And then I got talked out of it because someone said, look, that sounds like a urinary tract infection. Like no one's going to be into, you know, that it's got to be Yang 2020. And I was uncomfortable with putting my name on it, putting my face on it, you know, and I had to learn because you're going to fail very, very badly as a presidential candidate, if that's your attitude. So I had to become a little bit more, you know, me centered or me focused. But I'm not that into myself.
- [28:23]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm asking Evelyn.
- [28:24]
Andrew Yang
Oh, yeah, please do. Please.
- [28:25]
Monica Lewinsky
She'll be the arbiter on that.
- [28:27]
Andrew Yang
And I think part of it might be like a cultural thing because as the son of Asian immigrants, they tried to discourage me from being political, honestly. But strangely enough, I mean, I'm very, very grateful to everyone who supported my campaign. But, you know, there were people that were really drawn into, like, just a very, very different type of vision or approach.
- [28:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. Are you looking for your next big thrill? Audible's got you covered with all kinds of adventure right at your fingertips. Whether you're into heart racing mysteries, epic quests or fantasy, they've got stories that'll keep you hooked. You'll love diving into gripping titles that keep you guessing until the final moment. Experience exclusive capt, Audible originals you won't find anywhere else. Want to know what everyone will be talking about before they're talking about it? Be the first to hear anticipated new releases and discover must listen bestsellers that will Grab your attention. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. Start your adventure today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.comreclaiming that's audible.comreclaiming thanks so much to our sponsor, Reformation. I want to take a second to talk about one of my favorite clothing brands, Reformation. You've probably seen Reformation on Instagram or at a wedding. They make the best guesting dresses. But if you're like me, you may have thought that's all they do. Well, you're in for a pleasant surprise. Last year, they worked with Yours Truly and Vote.org on a campaign to empower voters to take part in the democratic process and show off their workwear. From doing the campaign and getting to know the brand even better. I love their sweaters, blouses, workwear, shoes and bags. But most important, I love how confident I feel in their stuff. Plus, it really holds up since they make everything with super high quality, sustainable materials. Reformation is also a brand that uses their growing platform to do good in the world and especially in the sustainable fashion space. As they say, being naked is the number one most sustainable option. Reformation is number two. If you're looking for clothes you want to feel great in and feel better about, head to reformation.com I'm very open to the idea of more than two parties. So whether three, whether it's five.
- [30:53]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. The ideal number is probably closer to five, but continue. Yeah.
- [30:56]
Monica Lewinsky
What I worry about is that it seems almost as if every election cycle there's something that is making it feel too risky. You know, that there's some, some label put on this election of this.
- [31:10]
Andrew Yang
This is going to be the most important area.
- [31:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. This is the most impactful and therefore, you know. So I don't know, is it, is it. Do you think about or, or is this already happening? And I just don't know that. It's like trying to sort of put this idea forward in smaller ways in local and state.
- [31:28]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah. So there are 47 elected officials who are aligned with the Forward Party.
- [31:33]
Monica Lewinsky
I didn't know that.
- [31:34]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, totally. And we actually are focused more on the local. Gosh. I mean, you know, again, I'm just imagining our listeners are in la, but they're everywhere.
- [31:44]
Monica Lewinsky
We have listeners all over the world.
- [31:48]
Andrew Yang
But I'll give you an example. The current mayor of Detroit is a guy named Mike Duggan and he's very popular in a majority black city. He was a Democrat until recently. He decided to run for governor of Michigan and he's doing so as an independent and great Leader, great guy, could be an awesome independent governor. And so we're getting behind him. There are people like him running in races around the country. And something that you just did, which is totally natural because 99% of people do it, and is they just think third party equals presidential run, right? So what I'm pointing out is like, look, we have mayors, we have city councilmen, we have state senators, we have a member of Congress, we have a US Senator who are at least affiliated with us in some way. You know, some of them are just out and out, like, look, I'm a forwardist. That's all I am. I'm like, you know, not either team blue or team red. And there are 500,000 local offices around the country, so we could get up to 500, 1000, 2000 elected officials and not even be touching the presidential. Now, I happen to think that the presidential is something that we should maybe take a look at at some point, because I don't think that either party is set to deliver. And again, earlier in this convo, I said, it's like, look, the Democrats. Let's say you're an ardent Democrat and I have many, many friends who aren't Democrats. You'd have to answer the math problem. It's like, what can you do if you don't have the U.S. senate? You know, so if your goal is to get various things done, I'm just someone who wants good things for people like, you know, like red, blue, purple, whatever. And I am now convinced that the best path to get there is through some kind of positive, independent political movement. But it would be local.
- [33:29]
Monica Lewinsky
First, were you this empathetic as a kid? Like, have you just always sort of been very compassion oriented and enthusiastic?
- [33:38]
Andrew Yang
You know, I mean, I was a bookworm. I would just read science fiction and fantasy novels and a lot of Native American biographies, which all tended to end the same way, which was sad. I certainly had a thing for the underdog as a kid because I was somewhat ignored or picked on as a kid. I'd skipped a grade, so I was always scrawnier than other kids. And I was one of the only Asian kids in the school, which I have to admit they reminded me of. They let me know. So I had a thing for the little guy. It was only later that I thought I might be able to do something. But what's funny, Monica, and you've had this experience too, I bet, is that as you start trying to do things and you kind of gain more experience and traction and exposure, you look at the Other people who are trying to do things, you're like, oh, my gosh, you know, like, you're no different than I am. Or in some cases, you know, like, frankly, I think I might be able to do a little better than you. You know, it's true. Even for your reclaiming message, it's like, there is no better carrier of that message than Monica Lewinsky.
- [34:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, thank you.
- [34:49]
Andrew Yang
That's true. You know, if there was someone else doing the math thing in American politics, maybe I'd just be there clapping. But, you know, as it is, you know, it's me. Someone's like, oh, shoot, I guess I'll try and do my best.
- [35:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Did you have a point? You know, sometimes some kids are like, I was lightly bullied in grade school, and then I didn't really. I had a little bit in the beginning of high school because it was more. You know, it's more being ostracized. Did that change for you in high school or college?
- [35:24]
Andrew Yang
I think it shifted gears somewhat in high school, but I had this real chip on my shoulder, and again, it was always a year younger. And so for me, I think the real shift probably happened before I got to college. Like, I started going to the gym and having this real, like, kind of, like physical development impulse. But even then, you know, I was still somewhat, like, angry or sad. I mean, there are pictures of me on the Internet that, you know, kind of speak to this, but I listened to the Cure and the Smiths. Kind of mopey, you know, very angsty.
- [36:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [36:05]
Andrew Yang
You know, and then grunge. So, you know, that. That gives you a sense of it.
- [36:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [36:11]
Andrew Yang
I got to meet Robert Smith, Cure.
- [36:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Concerts in my day, so.
- [36:14]
Andrew Yang
So I'm talking about. Yeah, so, yeah, like Gen X. So it persisted. You know, one of the things that did animate my deciding to run for president was this sense, like. I don't know, there's like a. Still, like, a bit of a chip on my shoulder, I suppose. And, like, I feel like the chip is kind of faded somewhat.
- [36:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Or do. Or does it. To me, it sounds more like the chip became collective. That it was in the. In the sense that if you might have had this chip on your shoulder about how you were being treated, that that chip became about how everyone was being treated.
- [36:55]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, like. So you asked about the empathy. Like, I met, you know, thousands and thousands of people on the trail, and it was very easy to root for all of them. You know, it's like they would just be like a family struggling in New Hampshire or Ohio or Iowa, all walks of life. I mean, some of them were avid Trump supporters, but they were still great people. And, you know, they just wanted a better life for themselves and their families. And they would hear me out. And then at the end of it, they might say, it's like, hey, I wish you luck. I'm gonna be voting for Trump. But, you know, good talking to you. Like, a million different stories. But I. Yeah, maybe you're right that I had a chip on my shoulder for them, because a lot of those people feel very, very shut out, very voiceless. You know, I'd say the average Democrat right now is, like, feeling that way, where you look up and be like, what the heck can we do?
- [37:49]
Monica Lewinsky
So, what can we do?
- [37:51]
Andrew Yang
Well, what can we do? I mean, right now, the guidance I have for people is, look, let's try and fix the rotten core of this system. Like, I prefer good people over bad people. I prefer people I agree with over people I disagree with. So, you know, it's like, do I support local candidates at every level, most of whom are running as Democrats? Yeah, I do. You know, it's like, I have the text on my phone to prove it, but the bulk of my energy is towards trying to create, like, mechanics and a positive alternative that will free us, because until then, we will not be free of the system. And I would say to folks like, you know, before November 24, and by the way, if you check the tape, I was also jumping up and down saying we need to have a primary for Joe Biden, because I thought him running unopposed was just, like, idiotic. And the fact that Democrats weren't willing to say that, I was like, look. And again, like, I'm the numbers guy. It's like, guys historically unpopular, historically old, running them again is a terrible idea. And someone please show me some numbers that say something different. And, like, just. It's like I was, you know, like, speaking in a language. So in terms of what we can do, you know, it's do the things you're probably doing right now, but then also try and fix some of the structural problems. What that means in real life, honestly, is go to forwardparty.com, join Forward, and then let's help people win the little races and then just keep on climbing up. And then maybe you even can have a shot at something like the U.S. senate, because you have independent figures like Dan Osborne running in places like Nebraska that might not line up with you on everything. But that's not the point anymore. Like, you know, there are folks that like you and I disagree on. Da, da, da, da da. Like, we're all being manipulated. We're all being sold. We're all just being bilked of our money, like, it doesn't matter. You know, if you and I can agree on the basics, then we're fine. We could work from there.
- [39:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, because there's six pillars to the Forward Party, right?
- [39:54]
Andrew Yang
Yeah.
- [39:55]
Monica Lewinsky
You want to tell them to us?
- [39:56]
Andrew Yang
No. I mean, there are things that you would think would be common sense, like rule of law.
- [40:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [40:03]
Andrew Yang
But it's also respect other people's points of view and like, you know, agree to work with people that you might not agree with on everything, on the one thing you can agree with. Like, let's go on that. So it's very benign principles that are actually kind of tough to adhere to in this polarized environment.
- [40:19]
Monica Lewinsky
There's this great quote from when you were on Rainn Wilson's Soul Boom. Oh, yeah, it was quote. We are in a period of societal disintegration marked by massive income equality, mistrust of government and media. Eventually we will come back. Societies do come back around. But my take is you can believe all of this doomed to be true and still feel it's worth your time to come up with ideas to make things better. So for those of us who are truly worried about democracy now, you know, just the ideas for us to how to start reclaiming democracy and the decency and dignity now.
- [41:01]
Andrew Yang
You want to reward people who are doing the right things. Often doing the right things in this context, Monica, is doing the thing that's difficult within your own party. The easy thing is for me to be like, hey, I'm going to throw rocks and tell you how bad the other people are. I might even agree that the other people are bad. But that kind of behavior actually is not going to move us along. You know what would have moved us along? If you'd had the courage to look at the leader of your own party in January of 2024 and say, hey, this is not a good idea. I love you, voted for you. In my case was a surrogate for you, campaigned for you. But this is not a good idea. So reward the people who are trying to do the right thing in the face of their own tribe and their own party. And that's the kind of thing that will give us a chance. And I talked about how my TED talk didn't work. Those ballot initiatives did not pass in November 24th. And that was also heartbreaking. I mean, things that people I admire a great deal and Me too. Worked on for years to try and give us a chance to cure the rotten incentives in, let's call it six states. And then if that had worked, you'd have had 12 US senators who didn't have primaries anymore. And then Pete Hegseth does not get confirmed. Kash Patel does not get confirmed. You have senators who'd be like, oh, I get to actually say what I want for a change. Because right now, by the way, I also happen to know pretty directly a lot of those Republican senators weren't fans of some of these. But then they were like, well, if I vote against them, I'm gonna end my own career. So let me just like, you know, go along with the party on this. And then you take that and multiply it times 100 other decisions. And that's why we feel the way we do right now, that we feel that way, because people know they're gonna end their careers if they do the right thing, and that's what we have to change.
- [42:52]
Monica Lewinsky
That is very heartbreaking. I mean, when you, like, think about what I mean, you just said it, but I mean, it is that people know they're going to end their careers if they do the right thing.
- [43:03]
Andrew Yang
Yes. That is why we are where we are. And we can only be in a better place if people will actually enhance and further their careers by doing the right thing instead of the thing they know is not what the country needs.
- [43:15]
Monica Lewinsky
With AI, I was thinking about because you were, you know, I think a lot of UBI that you talked about connected to AI incoming. But when you were talking about it for the majority of people, we didn't have chat GPT on our phone yet. And so. And I don't know about here in New York, but in LA we have Waymo and we have these little cocoa delivery robots. And so I just was wondering if the kind of almost the concretization, like the ability to see these things, you see the app, you now see this driverless car. Do you think that sort of the automation that comes from those things and AI, do you think that will impact how people think about UBI now?
- [44:00]
Andrew Yang
Yeah. Yeah. I think that when it's your job and your community impacted, then it becomes much more real. And then if someone says, look, not your fault, you know, like, you could be the best limo driver, the worst limo driver, like the robot car is going to replace you either way. By the way, I got the sequencing, so directionally I was correct when I was running in 2020, but I got the sequencing wrong because ChatGPT and the large language models are going to disrupt white collar work more than blue collar work. And there are some heartbreaking stats around what's happening to recent college graduates or trying to get into various fields. So this has become an everyone problem. UBI is inevitable in my view, because the evidence will just be too strong. But I do want to present this vision, and this is a vision I don't often share. So people would ask me. And you said something, Monica, that's very much in this direction was, look, you want people to have structure, purpose, fulfillment, community. And there's a sense that a certain amount of money doesn't actually solve those problems, which is totally true. You know, one thing that very much helps with those gaps is something called a job or something that looks sort of like a job. The problem is that most of the jobs that we're doing right now, or at least many of them, about 44% of them, to be precise, are not going to be economically viable after AI really gets going. And so if you use capital efficiency as your measuring stick for that job existing, or that person's activities being worth a certain amount, then the person loses. And six years ago, there was like, this nonsense argument. It's like, no, but if they're just like, strong and like, reskill, da, da, da, and like, you know, have high character, it's like, no, none of that stuff matters. Like, the technology gets. It doubles in capacity every seven months. And we do not, you know, I joke that, like, we did that once when we were two years old, we stopped, right? So what you need to do is you need to build a new economy around arts and creativity would be one category, health and wellness would be a second category. And then caring, nurturing, and education would be a third category. And then people who facilitate these forms of human flourishing actually get rewarded in a new currency. And so my campaign manager during the presidential made me swear never to talk of this, because it's like, look, it's hard enough getting people on board with the magical Asian man from the future who wants to give everyone money and says, AI is going to come and eat your job, like, it's hard enough. But when you start saying, like, you know, new economies, new currencies, like new ways of, of measuring and rewarding human flourishing, like, you lose everybody, so you can never speak of it. But that is the direction we should be going as quickly as possible, because AI is going to do a number on millions, tens of millions of jobs. We're going to go crazy as a result. We're Going to elect lunatics as a result. And then, you know, the only way out of it is to come clean and be like, okay, guys, like this economy is about to turn on us because it's become very, very punitive and inhuman. And so we have to humanize it. But it's not going to humanize itself if you use the market as your arbiter of human value.
- [47:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [47:30]
Andrew Yang
There was a lot there.
- [47:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Interesting. Did you see there was a ted talk in 2022, Aaron Bastani. So when he talked about universal basic services. Yeah, and I thought that was an interesting talk too. So I think he was talking about with universal basic services, providing housing, transportation, education and healthcare to everybody versus sort of an income is that it's very much related.
- [47:59]
Andrew Yang
There are a number of ways to try and guide the energies and resources towards housing, healthcare, education. I was frankly just trying to simplify. It was like, look, give you money and then the market will follow, but there are other ways to deliver it. I'm really heartened. Did you see or have you read, because I'm sure you're nerdy like me, the new Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson book, Abundance.
- [48:29]
Monica Lewinsky
So I saw it on a list, but I have not read it and I don't know anything about it, but I'm always intrigued by the word abundance.
- [48:40]
Andrew Yang
So they're trying to move our public sector towards higher levels of ability to deliver some of the services that Basyani is talking about. And so I'm very encouraged by it because it's like a modern, smart take on why we can't have nice things. But also their critique was much more internal because they're liberals and they say self consciously, look, we live in California and D.C. and so we're actually going to be critiquing the blue cities and the Democratic Party. It's like, why can't we deliver some of the things that maybe we kind of thought we could by now? And I'm sure, you know, some of your friends and neighbors in LA can relate to aspects of that. It's like, hey, like, you know, our tags are kind of high. Like.
- [49:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. Where's the water and the fire hydrants when we need it?
- [49:32]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, yeah. Where's the reservoir or whatever it was?
- [49:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:35]
Andrew Yang
Look, I'm a data guy. The data says we're gonna be in for some very, very rough, rocky times. But do societies come back?
- [49:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I was pretty terrified. I listened to your book the 2018 one. And. And I'm embarrassed to say I went back to check three times when it was published and that it was 2018 and not post 2020. And so in the book you were talking about, really, I think, prophesizing, based on data that you'd seen, based on philosophers, based on historians, that. And already we've seen so many of those things happen, the divide of race and income inequality and the increase in violence. And that was pretty terrifying to sort of listen to. And I know the latter half of the book is the more positive. So, you know, one of the reasons I was also drawn to the topic of reclaiming for these conversations is because I feel like it's an umbrella term that, you know, you have something, you lose it. The losing, you have the grief going through the grief process. You then have to be resilient. Then from resilience, you know, you need strategy and optimism and ultimately, you know, your triumph, like, until you've triumphed, you haven't reclaimed. Right. But so it is. I think there's just this element of, you know, needing resilience, needing optimism. How to. I was reading something that was talking about learned helplessness, you know, and that that's, I think, led to a lot of apathy that people are feeling right now.
- [51:20]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, I can imagine. It's certainly been a very, very, like, up and down last number of years for me on every level. And I did write that book in 2018, and I forecast some very, very nasty things. And it made me sad writing it because, by the way, when I was writing that book, I didn't know what I was gonna find. And then really, when.
- [51:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, really? Like, you went into it. So you went into it with an idea and then it was in the. Researching. Is that what you mean?
- [51:49]
Andrew Yang
Yeah, no, I went into it. So Trump wins in 2016. I'm the head of a very wholesome nonprofit called Venture for America. And I think, oh my gosh, this was a surprise. And then I said, I think it's because we automated away 4 million manufacturing jobs. Let me go see. And so then I spent months doing research and wrote what became that book. And then the conclusion of the book, I was like, oh, my gosh, like, these are gonna, like you. And I self consciously had to be like, okay, guys, it's getting kind of bleak. Let me see. Like, you know, give us some, some solutions. I don't even know people who've decided to listen to this. And thank you for that. I don't know if I seem positive or negative. You know, it's like I. I'm an optimist by action and I think by disposition and Everything. I try and be a good husband and father and friend and colleague and all that stuff. But I also don't try and shy away from what I think is coming or the facts say. But you have to be optimistic in what you can do. And I. And I'm gonna put you in this category, too, Monica. I feel like I'm in a category of people who might be able to help. And then you think, okay, let me do my best. And then also just take the blessings that come with pursuing this kind of service.
- [53:09]
Monica Lewinsky
I think one of the most surprising things to me of my last decade was being able to see and experience and feel what it meant to use my past pain to help other people. Like, to help ease other people's suffering, to sort of hear stories from people and to have felt so purposeless for so long to kind of have an experience like that, It. It is. It's such a privilege, and it's something that you would. In the same way that we. We think about privacy, but we never think about anonymity and what it means to lose anonymity. I don't think we ever think about the privilege it is to be able to help ease other people's suffering.
- [53:59]
Andrew Yang
You know, like an Asian American family would take a picture with me in New Hampshire or on the road, and then one of them would said to me, like, thank you. We didn't know we were allowed to run for president.
- [54:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [54:10]
Andrew Yang
And so I was like, whoa. It's, like, heady. And, you know, so like you said, you know, it's a privilege that you have to try and make the most of it.
- [54:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. So the last question I like to ask people is, what is something that you are working on reclaiming? And it could be anything from an aspect of your identity or a thing or an issue, Anything.
- [54:37]
Andrew Yang
Oh, my gosh. I'm going to say two things, and I'm working on something for each of these things because that's the way I'm wired. So, number one, I'm working on getting a healthier relationship with my phone.
- [54:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [54:49]
Andrew Yang
Because you have social media and email, obviously, and all these other things like, oh, I need to do work. I need to do work. And then you find yourself not being able to get through a dinner without being distracted, not being able to help your kid with their homework without being distracted. And I know I'm not alone in this. So I want to reclaim my state of mind, my clarity, my freedom from technology. And I'm working on a company to help people do this that's going to launch this summer, codename Noble. So keep an eye out for that. And then the other thing is, I want to reclaim, Though I don't know how this interview came across, whatever, but I want to reclaim my sense of humor.
- [55:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I thought you were funny.
- [55:34]
Andrew Yang
Oh, well, thank you. But there were all these times during the media circuit and everything where it became very serious. And so I'm working on a book of comedic reflections. No joke. I know.
- [55:51]
Monica Lewinsky
So even it's making you laugh yesterday, so, you know, it's making you laugh.
- [55:56]
Andrew Yang
So it's called hey, Yang, where's my thousand bucks? And it will be coming out next year. So I'm working on that.
- [56:03]
Monica Lewinsky
That's very cool. Did you have to curtail or be more mindful of your humor when you were running?
- [56:10]
Andrew Yang
No, Monica, it was funny. It actually kind of emerged because of that need to compete and get likes on your. So, I mean, it's terrible to say, but that was true. It's like that I was just like, oh, just trying to get people to, like, posts or like this. And then if you were serious all the time, then be like, yeah. But then if you said something funny or irreverent or glib or reference popular.
- [56:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Culture, then people are like, oh, yeah, it's interesting. I. When I first started Twitter in 2014, probably the first six months, I would not post a tweet without having three people look at it. I labored over every single word. And there had been a woman, Lara Cohen, who worked at Twitter, who sort of helped me onboard me or whatever, and we became friendly. And at some point she said, you know, you're funny. You should actually be. Be funny on Twitter and let people see that you're funny. And so I started to kind of, you know, show my humor petticoat a little bit. And it becomes very intoxicating when people, you know, and I. It does. And I love to tell this story, but just that the best part of it for me is my brother has had to, like, acknowledge that I'm funny now, so. Yay. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your comments. You're coming in and your time, and I appreciate your wanting to make our country better.
- [57:36]
Andrew Yang
Oh, thank you, Monica. It was great to be with you. And let's keep people reclaiming whatever it is that. That they, you know, that they want or that they might have lost.
- [57:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly.
- [57:47]
Andrew Yang
Yeah.
- [57:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Thanks. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin, and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez, our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake. An executive producer producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.