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- [00:00]
Anna Konkle
When Maya and I pitched 10 15, we were thinking it was quite funny in that we had all these stories about being 13 that we weren't supposed to talk about. It's been funny for ages that boys masturbate, but like, God forbid you did that as a girl. And then the deeper we got into the writers room and everything, that kind of got us excited and was like, well, yeah, why can't we tell that story? Why does that feel wrong? And then the more we were like the patriarchy.
- [00:27]
Host
Yeah.
- [00:27]
Anna Konkle
And then suddenly we were making like a feminist.
- [00:41]
Host
Hi, Anna. Welcome to Reclaiming.
- [00:43]
Anna Konkle
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [00:45]
Host
Yes. I'm so excited because we get to talk about one of my most favorite things, dark humor and your new memoir, the sane one.
- [00:54]
Anna Konkle
Yes.
- [00:54]
Host
Yeah. And so you're like a multi hyphenate as a writer, actor, showrunner, director. Right?
- [01:02]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [01:02]
Host
Anything else? Did I.
- [01:04]
Anna Konkle
No, I think that's right.
- [01:05]
Host
Do you play mahjong?
- [01:06]
Anna Konkle
Not yet.
- [01:07]
Host
Okay. You gotta learn if you're in la.
- [01:09]
Anna Konkle
Do you play mahjong?
- [01:10]
Host
I do.
- [01:10]
Anna Konkle
You do?
- [01:11]
Host
I do. I learned a couple years ago and my skill level is pretty much the same.
- [01:16]
Anna Konkle
Okay.
- [01:17]
Host
Like, I haven't gotten better.
- [01:18]
Anna Konkle
Okay, this is embarrassing. Is mahjong the one where you press the like kind of like a disc?
- [01:24]
Host
No.
- [01:24]
Anna Konkle
Oh, okay.
- [01:25]
Host
That would.
- [01:26]
Anna Konkle
I think I know. I knew.
- [01:27]
Host
I was just. Is that air hockey? No, that's air hockey.
- [01:30]
Anna Konkle
There's one that's like. It's like a stick with like that. And then you're like pushing a disc.
- [01:37]
Host
Is that the one you're talking about?
- [01:38]
Anna Konkle
No. It doesn't matter. No, it's very important.
- [01:41]
Host
You created a game that you. In your life.
- [01:43]
Anna Konkle
What does mahjong look like?
- [01:44]
Host
Oh, well, okay. Traditionally. Traditionally, it's sort of. They're kind of cream colored tiles and the. The ink on each tile is black, red, or green.
- [01:56]
Anna Konkle
Okay.
- [01:56]
Host
But with this sort of mah jong boom and renaissance that has happened in the last couple years, there are now a million companies and they make these gorgeous tiles. That is half the reason I play. Cause they're just so pretty.
- [02:09]
Anna Konkle
Okay, great. Now I can check this out.
- [02:11]
Host
You know, it's like anything that can make you smile in today's world.
- [02:14]
Anna Konkle
Okay, I'm on that. I'm gonna get on that.
- [02:16]
Host
I like floral straws.
- [02:17]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, I know. I saw.
- [02:18]
Host
I'm like, any of the things, right? All the things.
- [02:21]
Anna Konkle
No, no. Thank you.
- [02:22]
Host
Wait, so we're gonna talk about your memoir. I always feel like when someone comes on with a book that I always want to assure them that we're gonna get to it. I'm gonna talk about some other things. No, no, but I, you know. Cause I've had that experience myself of where I just think, oh, no. Oh, no. They, like, brought me on to do something else. They're not gonna talk about the thing that we're supposed to talk about, blah, blah, blah. So. But I. I really. And I think in setting up the tone of your book, too. So much of you and how we know you is from pen 15 and. Although I want to say penis, but you know, you can.
- [02:58]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. Penis. Penis. Pen 15. Pen all the ways.
- [03:04]
Host
And I feel like you did such an extraordinary job of a creative way of taking us into our world of middle school in that you made it both sort of comic and heartwarming. And I guess if there's anybody who maybe didn't watch or is in perimenopause, like me and maybe just forgot because of perimenopause. Right. So. And correct me if you feel like this is not the right description.
- [03:35]
Anna Konkle
No, please, you're nailing it.
- [03:37]
Host
Okay, good.
- [03:38]
Anna Konkle
Yay.
- [03:38]
Host
I like when I get an A. So you and your best friend from college, Maya Erskine, Right. You wrote this show that's set in the 2000s.
- [03:47]
Anna Konkle
Yep.
- [03:48]
Host
In the year 2000. About you both as 13 year olds, but you both play yourselves even though you are adults.
- [03:57]
Anna Konkle
Yes.
- [03:58]
Host
Like, and not the kind of adult actor who. Who plays. Who looks. Who's trying to look. Right.
- [04:05]
Anna Konkle
Like Sometimes like the 90s high school shows or whatever, where you're like, I'm Pretty sure they're 25, but I'm just gonna go with the fact that they're 16.
- [04:13]
Host
Exactly. Or grease. Greece is a really good example.
- [04:16]
Anna Konkle
Y. No, it was far more absurd where, you know, we're sort of. All the wrinkles are there, but we're just sort of like kind of embracing the freakdom of what it means for us to be playing, you know, 13 year olds at 30 years old and hoping that it comes through that, like, the symbolism is that everyone feels like a freak at that age. And so to surround ourselves with real 13 year olds and just sort of, like, commit to playing 13. What we were telling ourselves was like, this is just the exaggerated version of how being 13 really feels, which is like you're an alien and you're just, like, pretending to fit in with the other 13 year olds. You know what I mean? Hoping no one notices you're 30.
- [04:59]
Host
Yeah, no, exactly. But I mean, what I thought was so interesting is because the show does it's both like a reclamation of our youth that way. But then it's also the reminder of we still carry. So both in our inner child, we carry it around. And also, I mean, I know there's so many times I walk into a room and I feel just as awkward as I did at 13, and I didn't even have braces.
- [05:25]
Anna Konkle
So, like, you know, you don't have braces. That's a whole different conversation that I
- [05:29]
Host
must know how to. I did Invisalign. Okay, Okay, I need to do that now.
- [05:33]
Anna Konkle
I had braces twice.
- [05:34]
Host
Oh, my God. Twice.
- [05:35]
Anna Konkle
That's why I responded so intensely where
- [05:37]
Host
I was like, with the headgear thing or. They didn't have headgear. Cause you're.
- [05:40]
Anna Konkle
No, no, they did have headgear. I remember one kid had headgear. The poor gu. No, you didn't have.
- [05:45]
Host
No, no.
- [05:46]
Anna Konkle
I had an appliance where you have, like, a key and it goes at the top of your mouth, and you turn the key to expand the palette. Have you heard of that?
- [05:56]
Host
No, but it sounds like the Cartier bracelet of. The love bracelet of bracelet.
- [06:01]
Anna Konkle
That's what it was. Yeah. It's so crazy. We got to do it. But, yeah, there was this feeling of reclaiming and, like, kind of at first, when Maya and I pitched it, we were thinking it was quite funny in that we had all these stories about being 13 that we weren't supposed to talk about. Like, you know, it's been funny for ages that boys masturbate, you know, and we're, like, making jokes at the cafeteria table. But, like, God forbid you did that as a girl. And so it was sort of like, at first, just these pitches that were funny. And then the deeper we got into the writers room and everything, that kind of got us excited and was like, well, yeah, why can't you. Why does that feel wrong? And then the more we were, like, the patriarchy.
- [06:45]
Host
Yeah.
- [06:46]
Anna Konkle
And then suddenly we were making, like, a feminist show. It wasn't really the intention, but I'm so proud that we got to do it, that that's what it naturally turned into while we were just trying to tell our stories. Just the real holding up a mirror to, like, how it really was.
- [06:58]
Host
Oh, how interesting. Real briefly, because I'm super curious. I know the show was on Hulu, and I've worked with Hulu and love them. I'm curious about just the pitch process. I don't wanna spend too much time on this. I just love. This is such a brave show. And it was such A. I mean, I don't think anybody has done anything with that sort of a structure or conceit. And so what was that process like for you guys?
- [07:24]
Anna Konkle
I mean, of course the answer is this, like, mostly people thinking we are crazy, where sometimes you get like, oh, that's funny, or that's interesting. Then they'd think about it and they'd be like, but you wanna do like the firsts, like your first kiss and your, you know. And we're like, yeah, that's all pretty important to 13. We don't want to do the, you know, the Nickelodeon Hilary Duff version. We want to do like Todd Salons or. Yeah, we want to tell like what's being told in indie movies. Like more so about coming of age stories. And yeah, it was mostly like, well, that's illegal. You're not going to be able to do that. And so it quickly became about pitching how directorially we could kind of adjust things and so to make it so that we could tell the more explicit stories that were true to that time. Because the pitch was that it was like the R rated version of being 13. So we started thinking on, do you remember Ren and Stimpy? Did you ever watch that cartoon?
- [08:17]
Host
Yes, I did. My brother and I were obsessed with Ren and Stimpy.
- [08:22]
Anna Konkle
I loved it too. Whenever my mom saw it, she was like, that's trash.
- [08:25]
Host
I know that's.
- [08:26]
Anna Konkle
What the hell are you watching? But they would do these extreme close ups. Remember, like when they were freaked out or they were happy or whatever, go to the eyes or the mouth or. And so we started using in the pitches this animated language of like, we'll go to the extreme close ups for the making out. And so it can be really extra gross and we'll bring in an adult double and kind of still, you know, show these things as they really were. But it was a. It was a lot of rejection. And as we, even while we were making it, even after it was out, it was still a lot of like, you know, some people loved it. And a lot of people were like, I don't get it. Weirdly now it's like blowing up on TikTok and there's a lot of teenagers coming up to me that are like, I love your TikTok show. Like, it's a TV show and it's been around for a long time, but thanks.
- [09:13]
Host
Yeah, well, you know, it is interesting. I think that's one of the things about social media that we don't really talk about is that it has really sort of quickened the cycle that things go through, this idea of something being revisited happens so much more. I mean, both. First we have from the podcast, like, the rewatching, whatever. But I think the TikTok. The TikTok.
- [09:37]
Anna Konkle
Should I say that? I would say that the TikTok. I think I said it.
- [09:40]
Host
Sorry. No, no, no, no, no. It's. But I think that there's. You know, I think what we find is that things are circulating faster, which is interesting. You know, no longer is it. I mean, maybe fashion is still the every 20 or 30 years thing.
- [09:55]
Anna Konkle
Whatever. Well, and the forgetting and remembering, too, of, like. Of feeling like, you know, no one knows what pen15 is. A few years have gone by since it's been out, and then, like, young kids on the Internet, feeling like they've discovered something new.
- [10:08]
Host
You know, One of the ways you talked about the show that I just loved as a healing junkie. Yay, ptsd, was. I'm gonna look at the exact wording. Yeah, yeah, please. Live action. Emdr.
- [10:24]
Anna Konkle
So.
- [10:24]
Host
Because I've done emdr.
- [10:26]
Anna Konkle
Oh, I love that.
- [10:27]
Host
And I just love that you guys talked about it that way.
- [10:31]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, like, as I started doing therapy for the first time, those sort of. I didn't think about it when we were pitching it, but later when it was all over, I was like, this was like a $13 million version. Like, someone just built my life, and I replayed it, like, a little bit different, or when I was alone. I wrote my friend into it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And so. But, yeah, like, the first time of doing therapy like that and going like, picture little Anna. Where is she? What is she saying? And then what is she afraid of? And then let, you know, you. Your adult self, just give her a hug. It was like that. And, you know, one of the freakier times or that especially happening was after. It was the beginning of the second season of PEN15. We were about to go into production, and my dad, who I'd had a tough relationship with, got sick, and I kind of became his caregiver for the last few months. And I was going back and forth from Tampa, where he lived, to filming, and, like, there was the TV dad version of my real dad, who was, like, in the corduroys that he, you know, basically wore. I'd been so insistent on all the details being the same without at all thinking of it from a therapeutic lens point, you know, and then all of a sudden, there were these very heightened moments while that was going on of being deeply aware of, like, how Spooky. Yeah, it was. But also really healing. Yeah.
- [12:00]
Host
Do you think you would have, like, that the versimilitude would have been as important to you of the same corduroys and that this had it. Had it maybe not been your story?
- [12:11]
Anna Konkle
My story? That's a good question. I think, like, yeah, I've always been obsessed with memory, and I've always been obsessed with docu series and reality shows and memoirs and just something about claiming something is real and trying to the best of your ability to recreate the minutiae of reality has always gotten me weirdly excited. I don't know why exactly, but, yeah, going into real memory and trying to reproduce it feels like the opposite of mainstream tv, where everything's, like, a little bit of the brighter, glowier version of how it really was. And to try to tell the plot points that are left or right of the center, one that you usually see is always what makes me feel like the story is most alive.
- [13:05]
Host
I actually wrote down a quote from, I think, an interview you gave about your book. I'm gonna find it now where you say something very similar, but about your family.
- [13:15]
Anna Konkle
Oh, interesting.
- [13:17]
Host
Okay. A lot of this memoir deals with impactful moments that seem sit to the left and right of more obvious family issues. And I wanted to try to talk about that.
- [13:26]
Anna Konkle
Okay, well.
- [13:27]
Host
And I loved that so much that I wrote it down.
- [13:30]
Anna Konkle
Thank you.
- [13:30]
Host
Or typed it out.
- [13:31]
Anna Konkle
But, yeah, I think in, like. I have struggled with, in terms of, like, calling my upbringing, like, traumatic at all because it didn't have the goal posts of, like, I couldn't just simply say, for example, like, I'm strange from my dad because there was physical abuse or something. And that confused me. And for a while it felt like, well, it must be my fault then, because there's not the beacon to go to where I get someone else's recognition to say, I understand that's legitimate. It was like, I was always searching for somebody else to tell me, like, and that's okay. And that makes sense. And I couldn't quite get there. And so I think it created this need in me to illuminate, you know, more of a slow burn of unsettling or funny events that led to my identity, why things were difficult. And fortunately, my experience in Pen15 helped me understand that the more I talk about the things that sit in the shadows are harder to find words for, the more likely someone is to say, that's me too. And my goal is to keep doing that until someone is like, okay, now you're on an Island. That's what I'm telling myself. Like, okay, just keep going.
- [14:53]
Host
Well, it's. I can so relate to that. I've had a lot of experiences in therapy where I feel like I'm trying to explain something away or justify something, but it's not as bad as. And so. Well, it wasn't this and it wasn't that. And my therapist will always stop me and just sort of like there's a word for what you're talking about. There's a, you know, or, you know, certain kinds of emotional neglect, you know, that we may experience at different times in different relationships. And that it's interesting. I have a friend who was looking into adoption at one point, a long time ago, and she told this story about she'd gone to these classes and they were saying, I'm not going to get this right. But ultimately it was the most impactful, damaging thing that the adopted children might experience was emotional neglect more than physical abuse. And so. And I'm sure that's not adopted kids too, but that was the context in which, you know, I first heard of that. And.
- [16:01]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, and my therapist too has, like, kind of reinforced that. And I'm always like, yeah, right. Do you know what I mean? Like, no, it's not that bad. We're kind of taught to just be like, it's not that bad. Especially as girls and women.
- [16:13]
Host
Right.
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Anna Konkle
You know?
- [16:13]
Host
Right, right. I wanna go back to just. Cause I think you said something really interesting when you were talking about why the details of things are so important to you and memory, your childhood. And so I think you've talked about having been a parentified child. Right. And so do you think that those are maybe all connected? That if memory's important to you, then the details of things are gonna be important in that way?
- [16:41]
Anna Konkle
I think you're right. Like, it's hard to put your finger on being parentified. It's hard to put your finger on feeling like. I remember very uncomfortable when my therapist first said, like, oh, this sounds like emotional incest. And I was like, I have to go, you're fired. Like, I can't. But then learning.
- [16:58]
Host
I've never heard that phrase before.
- [16:59]
Anna Konkle
Really? Yeah, it was. It kind of threw me. He, like, handed me a book and I was like, okay. He actually book on it. And he emailed me later and he was like, I, like, feel. Feel like I freaked you out. And I feel like that was too much too soon. And he was kind of right. But I read it and it was very much about, like, you know, and Again, like, that's not something that is easily so emotional incest, essentially, the way that I understand it is like you're. It is part of being, you know, feeling like a parent, but it's more so being in a position where you feel like a spouse emotionally. So it's like, you know, for. Like, here's an example. Like, you know, my. My parents would fight. My dad would leave at night a lot of times, and, like, my mom would be a mess. And so, you know, I'd be the one rubbing her back and trying to help her feel better. I might sleep next to her to be like, it's cool, Mom. Don't worry. Whatever.
- [17:57]
Host
You're not alone.
- [17:58]
Anna Konkle
You're not alone. Like, things that in. You know, on. On the. On the surface, you could just be like, yeah, she was upset. You tried to. That, you know, you tried to help. Like, that's pretty simple. Why do we need to call it, like, emotional incest? That's. But it recurrence. That was very, very regular. And it was with my dad too, on the other hand, like. And even there's parts of it that to me are kind of funny. There's parts that are not, but of him, like, you know, talking to me about mom being in a mood today or whatever and being like the mediator, being like, you know, joking with him in a way that she wouldn't. Or a certain intimacy, really an emotional intimacy that, like, I don't want to, you know, be worried about both of you and your needs being met in whatever sense that it is. And I was very aware of it because there was so much fighting between them and, you know, listen, I don't know, nurture nature. There's also a part, like, I am just a weirdo also that, like, I think back my parents fighting and, like, my answer was like, I'm gonna save my babysitting money and make them an Easter basket and with gourmet candy, I'm gonna h. And they won't fight and, you know, that day and it'll be happy. It was like I was. I in part, learned to be a little third adult walking around. But I also think I was kind of, like, born that way, you know?
- [19:21]
Host
Yeah.
- [19:22]
Anna Konkle
But it took a while to.
- [19:23]
Host
Also, in the book, I think you talk about. Right. Having almost studied your parents wedding pictures. Right. Wasn't it from a time when you, like, feeling like you could. By reminding them, you could glue them back together? In a sense. Yeah.
- [19:38]
Anna Konkle
And I think, like, they. There was this lore of who they were when they met which were hippies and which were living in Vermont and a very different life than the corporate kind of WASP y life that we moved into in Massachusetts as I got older. And so I was very aware of these sort of dual sides to that. My dad's sort of talking about, like, doing acid and living in a van and fleeing the draft. And then all of a sudden he's like a human resource manager for 711 and he's sort of, like, deeply depressed and unhappy. And my mom is like a nurse at elderly homes, but was a Reiki healer for a long time. Cool. Cool. Yeah, very cool. But it was also this feeling of like, you guys have lost yourself somewhere, and maybe if you go back to that, you guys will fall in love again, be happy, and then our life will be fine.
- [20:29]
Host
Which is no, I kid thinking, of course. I mean, my parents divorced when I was 14, and at 52, I will still. Maybe every five years I have a dream where they're married.
- [20:43]
Anna Konkle
Stop. Yeah, dreams.
- [20:45]
Host
Oh, dreams. I'm such. Are you a big dreamer?
- [20:47]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [20:47]
Host
Or remember your dreams? Yes, I'm huge.
- [20:50]
Anna Konkle
You are. Do you write them down each night?
- [20:52]
Host
I don't do each night when I'm doing my sort of energy protocol work. So when I know everything's stirred up, I often feel like there's more meaning in them. So then I will write them down. But. And one of my best friends, she's also the same. So we're interested in each other's dreams. So at least we have somebody to be like, here's what happened last night.
- [21:12]
Anna Konkle
And then you're, like, analyzing it a little bit.
- [21:14]
Host
Yes, exactly. Because I think people who don't remember their dreams find it very boring.
- [21:20]
Anna Konkle
Really?
- [21:20]
Host
Yes, yes. To hear dreams. But my dad has this interesting theory which I subscribe to, and that is that people we see in our dreams that we don't know are people we've known in past lives.
- [21:34]
Anna Konkle
I love that.
- [21:35]
Host
Right?
- [21:35]
Anna Konkle
Yes.
- [21:36]
Host
Super cool.
- [21:37]
Anna Konkle
Wow, your dad sounds really cool.
- [21:39]
Host
Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's a Renaissance man. So.
- [21:42]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, My parents divorced when I was 14 as well, and then we split the house for. Did they, like, go their separate ways? Yes.
- [21:52]
Host
So your parents literally split the house, right? Literally.
- [21:56]
Anna Konkle
For a couple of years. Where at first I was like, yeah, that makes sense. And then as time went on, people would be like, thought your parents were getting a divorce? I'd be like, well, they are. My dad's there, my mom's up there. It's impossible. Yeah.
- [22:06]
Host
You're like, I go from floor to floor every Other week?
- [22:10]
Anna Konkle
No, but divorce at that age is. It will stick with you. Yeah. So you have dreams that they're still together?
- [22:18]
Host
Yeah. One's in a blue, blue, blue moon. But I'm a deep. Okay. Now, do you. You've seen Inception, I'm sure. Like. Oh, I know. I've seen it 8,000 times, but I will. In fact, just a couple days ago, I had a dream where there was a really nice part of the dream. And then in the dream, I woke up and was like, oh, fuck, was that a dream or is that real? And so in the dream. So the dream within the dream is always trippy to me, that kind of consciousness.
- [22:50]
Anna Konkle
Does that happen often?
- [22:53]
Host
Often enough.
- [22:54]
Anna Konkle
I want a lucid dream. That would be really cool.
- [22:57]
Host
Me too. Every time I read about trying to. How to do. Doesn't work for me.
- [23:03]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [23:04]
Host
Have you.
- [23:04]
Anna Konkle
No. My friend does it.
- [23:07]
Host
Okay.
- [23:07]
Anna Konkle
And he says it's great. And he can fly and do crazy things in his dreams. I'm not quite there. And I'll never get there because I'm not gonna learn to lose. I don't. Who's got the time to learn?
- [23:18]
Host
We are gonna go learn to lucid dreams together. I mean, I put in a.
- [23:20]
Anna Konkle
Okay. Okay. I put in a hardship.
- [23:22]
Host
Let's do it.
- [23:23]
Anna Konkle
I had this dream that it was like. I wanna say it was the night or two before my dad passed away, so he would have been in, like, coma. And I had a dream I was sleeping in his condo in my room, my bed, in the comforter that I'd had since high school. And I woke up and there was a knock at the screen door of his condo. And I looked around the corner and there was. The screen door opened and there was a little boy with blonde, Blonde, blonde hair. And he just ran towards me, into my arms, and I just scooped him up and I just knew it was my dad as a little boy. It was really intense. And then I woke up. But it's an example of also thinking that I was awake.
- [24:13]
Host
VRBO makes it easy to claim your dream summer spot with early booking deals from homes with pools to poolside loungers. When you book a vrbo, you don't have to reserve any loungers. They're all yours. All you have to do is book early book with vrbo. Will you kind of take me through the landscape of your relationship with your dad? Because you guys were really close when you're young, and then what happened that led to you guys not talking for five years shortly before he passed? Right. You reconciled.
- [24:50]
Anna Konkle
Yes, exactly. Yeah. I think so, yeah. The sort of trajectory of our relationship, as you said, was like being best friends when I was small and seeing him as sort of like the. Just like the perfect dad, like, very funny, cool dad. Like, whatever he says is right. He's smart. No one appreciates him like I do, you know, that kind of thing. And then. And then it was like, you know, my parents got divorced, and it was sort of this slow burn of unsettling. Also funny, if you have a dark sense of humor. Events that eventually, in my mid-20s, led to an estrangement. And, yeah, it lasted for about five years, and we were sort of. By the last year, we were writing letters while I was writing letter after letter to him that I wasn't sending. And eventually I sent him a letter, and he sent one back. And that was the beginning of things kind of repairing in a real way. And then, yeah, he was given one to five years. He was. We knew he had lung cancer, but we didn't know what stage. And he had had cancer before, so it wasn't that. At first, we were like, okay, you got this. You got this again, you know? And then it ended up being two months, and he didn't really have others in his life. And so, yeah, so I became his caregiver. And I think, you know, it was that time where I. After he passed, where I was like, okay, I need to write this memoir. And part of that, as bitter as the end, was, there was this sweetness to getting to take care of him and see him again and look up to him again, but for totally different reasons, where it's like, it wasn't because he was the, like, you know, posing patriarch with a booming voice, and everything he said was right. And, you know, he's just this person to revere. It was the opposite where he was atrophying and he was vulnerable, and he was talking about spirituality and that he wasn't afraid to die. And he's, like, bopping to music on morphine, and he's just, like, looking at death in the face and, like, teaching me to do that. And I got to learn from him again. I got to look up to him again. I got to laugh with him again. And so, yeah, it was just a very unexpected arc, but one that felt sort of perfect in that, you know, the estrangement in a lot of ways, came from needing physical and emotional boundaries that I felt like weren't being respected at a time when I was recognizing that with men in general, with my sexuality as, like, a woman in my mid-20s and then to, like, kind of come back together and do something so intimate, which is taking care of him and brushing his hair and giving his mouth ice and all these things. But it. But it felt totally wonderful in that sense and setting. Like, it was a different kind of boundaried relationship that could be intimate at the same time. It was really important for me.
- [28:09]
Host
You must miss him.
- [28:10]
Anna Konkle
I do miss him. I do miss him. And it's funny talking about him so much right now and thinking about him. And I think also with, you know, this time of book promotion is about to be done, and it's about to be out and finished, and that's another, like, goodbye to him.
- [28:32]
Host
Oh, interesting.
- [28:33]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [28:34]
Host
Have you. Do you guys have one of those. I have a lot of friends who've lost people who have sort of the sign. Right. Like my friend who lost her mom when she was young. When she finds a dime, it's her mom. And so do you have something like that with your dad? Have you seen anything from him that you feel like, okay, he's good with what's happening?
- [28:57]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. I mean, owls are one of them, you know? And there have been some moments with my daughter, who never met my dad. She's five now. Of her. The kind of questions she asks about Pop Pop. And there was a.
- [29:18]
Host
It's.
- [29:18]
Anna Konkle
It's in the book. But there was a moment with her when she was around three years old. She would always ask me what people sound like. What does my teacher sound like? What does the person at CVS sound like? We'd, like, do their voice for her. And she. One night in bed was like, I guess we were talking about Pop up earlier, and she asked me what he sounded like, and I was kind of like, oh, this is creepy. I can't do that. Like, bypass. We're not doing that. And I was like, oh, he had kind of a deep voice and he was funny, and, you know, we'll look at pictures tomorrow or something. She kept pressing and pressing, pressing. What does he sound like? What does he sound like? Do his voice. And I was like, hi, Essie. You know, And I'm like, that's it. Yep. Good night. You know? And then she just starts to talk to him, and she's like, hi, Pop Pop. And I'm like, oh, no. How do I. What are we gonna do here? And it was this really. It just kind of, like, went on and on, and every time I tried to get out of it, there wasn't a good way. And I felt like, you know, I don't Know, it started to feel like she. Whether it was just. I mean, it was. It was me like, conjuring his memory and letting her have a connection with him in this moment that she doesn't get to have day to day. But it did feel like. It felt spooky in a good way.
- [30:43]
Host
Yeah. It's interesting. Uzo Aduba was on and she was talking about how her daughter would sort of. I think it was, if I remember correctly, it was use these phrases that her mom would use and she'd never met her mom. And so it was like that crossover.
- [30:59]
Anna Konkle
I mean, I certainly wonder about second lives and past lives and third and fourth and fifth and sixth. And the idea of traveling in packs is like souls. Sounds like certainly. Yeah. It crosses my mind from time to time.
- [31:15]
Host
Okay. I have these two questions pop in my head and so I'm gonna give them to you both and you can choose which one. Ok. Just because I can't. I'm like, which way do we go? Yeah, exactly. Multiple choice. So one was, what kind of. Or I guess had you been doing work on yourself that led you to a place where you actually wrote to your dad? Not just, you know, the sort of letters that way. And then the other is around what, what you. How do I articulate this? Like, the difference between what you worked through and how you saw things with your dad from when you were younger to sort of coming to this place of reconciliation. And has that shifted since he passed? Such good questions, you know, So I
- [32:09]
Anna Konkle
do think that there's, like, in death comes a forgiveness that you, like, can't do alive.
- [32:17]
Host
Yeah.
- [32:18]
Anna Konkle
Where there's times when I'm being an asshole to my mom and I'm like, anna, just project yourself to the future and just put the forgiveness on that, you know, will come. Like, why do I have to be an asshole? You know? And I can't do that. I can't wait.
- [32:30]
Host
With the emails. Sometimes I'm like, okay, there's gonna come a day where I'm not gonna get another email from.
- [32:37]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. Oh, my mom sent texts this long where I'm like, good Lord, if you
- [32:41]
Host
text me, I sent you an email. Oh.
- [32:43]
Anna Konkle
Oh, absolutely. Oh, my God. I really relate to that. Yeah.
- [32:48]
Host
So. And I. And I have those moments of. But so go ahead.
- [32:52]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. No, and it's that. And it's not possible. Like, it's. There's just something about, you know, the person being forever gone, that everything just, like, softens the memories, the bad memories. I don't know. I have more gratitude for the Bad memories now, even with my mom. But I think the death helped and. And you know, part of the loss of the idea I had of my dad. I mean, that was the real thing of like him being on a pedestal. I know so many of us go through this with our parents of like, you think they're perfect. Whether that's your DNA that you're born with. Cause you need, you know, you just need it. You need to survive. Like you're like, yeah, you're just bored and be like, you're the best, even if they're not. But yeah, it was a. I think it was a mix of him truly changing. You know, I think the. And you know, and my idea of him becoming more complex and not seeing him such a black and white figure. But he also was changing like through. After the divorce with my parents, he just. There were physical things. Like he learned he had to get his ring finger removed, which had been the one, ironically that at his wedding day.
- [34:13]
Host
Actual finger.
- [34:14]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [34:14]
Host
Okay.
- [34:15]
Anna Konkle
And he was cancer. And he.
- [34:17]
Host
Wow.
- [34:17]
Anna Konkle
Would always make jokes at like Thanksgiving, like around the town would be like, yeah, the judge took my finger in the divorce. Like, they're gonna take my balls too. And I'd be like, this is. This is Thanksgiving. Can we not just do that here? I don't know how he was a human resource manager, but yeah, there. So there. And then the more that that person was showing up, like, the more bitterness there was. So then he stopped playing the guitar. And then he like, you know, then he was like getting fired more often. And then there was this idea in his mind that like everything was because of my mom. And you know, as I got older, I started to recognize that I had really like vilified my mom in my childhood and had done the opposite with my dad where he had been the savior. And actually there's an episode in pen 15. I don't know if you were aware of this line, but where. And it leads to a realization with my character and around this subject where I say in episode. I think it was like 203 and I'm trying to get my parents back together. Cause they're with magic. As one 13 year old, any 13 year old does become a witch and it's not working. And I freak out at my mom and I say, why can't you just love dad? Why do you have to be a Monica? And that was because I realized and it happens later in the season where it's that same holding up a mirror of like vilifying my mother when my dad was doing the same thing, and we're taught to do that. And I was doing that to myself in all of these situations in society, of always blaming myself before anybody else, definitely if a guy was involved. And so, yeah, I listened to another episode where you said something about your friend, I think, meditating on a mountain and saying the work you were doing was healing other women's psyche. I really felt that to be true and still feel it, and was emotional when I heard. I got.
- [36:30]
Host
Wow. Well, thank you.
- [36:32]
Anna Konkle
Thank you.
- [36:33]
Host
I. I can take that in a little more. But I hope at the end of my life, I'm gonna. Like, right before I'm gonna get some big fat dossier and be like, here's what it was about. This was the whole thing. Because there's so many pieces of my life that it feels so complicated to me. So. But, yeah, my friend Annie. So she's still close. She's my. It's interesting. She's my spiritual friend, one of my spiritual friends, but who's always been ahead of me. And so I go through the same with my mom. Yeah. So I go through the process where she'll talk about something, and I'm like, okay, that sounds fucking crazy. Right?
- [37:16]
Anna Konkle
Sorry, Annie.
- [37:18]
Host
And then, you know, and then a few years later, I have these moments of, oh, okay. You know, she got me into crystals, and so.
- [37:27]
Anna Konkle
My mom, too.
- [37:28]
Host
Yes.
- [37:28]
Anna Konkle
And when I was younger, it embarrassed me. And she would, like. My friend would come over with her hurt ankle and she'd go like this. And they'd never come back because they'd be like, okay, that's weird. And now I have, like, so much reverence for it.
- [37:40]
Host
Yeah.
- [37:40]
Anna Konkle
Do people tell you a lot? And are they like, you're part of my healing? You're part of like.
- [37:45]
Host
Yes.
- [37:46]
Anna Konkle
That's gotta be so intense.
- [37:47]
Host
Yeah. You know what is a lot better now as it used to be for. Sorry. For a long time, people would tell me their affair stories, like, strangers, witches. And I was like, what is it about? You know, so. But I've always. Like, even before 98, I was somebody who people always felt comfortable telling me. Telling you everything. Secrets. Yeah. I had a teacher in high school who told me, like, there was no sexual, no nothing. But there was, like. He told me a whole bunch of things about his history in college that it was like, oh, you're probably not supposed to tell me that, you know, But I think there's just something about me that way. And so I feel so grateful to be able to help other people. But sometimes I worry I just think, oh, no, now it's gonna go the other way. Like for the longest time, if I just put a sentence together, well, people would go, oh, wow, you're so smart. You know, because everybody thought I was such a fucking bimbo. And now sometimes I think somebody would. Somebody wrote this comment that was saying about, oh, and they saw this poster of me wearing the red outfit and reformation from the campaign and that I had reclaimed so much and I was so strong. And I thought, okay, that's only a part of me. Right. Like there are all these other parts of me too. And so I worry sometimes I'm gonna, oh, I'm gonna let people down. You know, it's so interesting.
- [39:17]
Anna Konkle
Cause don't you feel like I feel. I mean, not anywhere on your level of.
- [39:23]
Host
No, no, it doesn't work that way.
- [39:25]
Anna Konkle
But like, I also have watched so many women not feel like they need to say, well, I just want you to know, I'm all of these other things in a way that I find kind of confounding. And yet I want to be the type of person that's like, oh, yeah, I should own that or whatever. But I also appreciate like your ability or someone's ability to say, yeah, I'm this thing, but I'm all these other things too. Because we do identify with public figures. I did learn how to be a woman and a girl and how to love myself and hate myself through all of the women that I was watching and learning from and looking up to or whatever it was. And so, yeah, I don't know. At the same time I can say that, like, I appreciate you being like open about complexity because when it looks otherwise, it can make you feel so unworthy.
- [40:27]
Host
Yes.
- [40:27]
Anna Konkle
You know what I mean?
- [40:28]
Host
Yeah.
- [40:29]
Anna Konkle
Especially having played, you know, a 13 year old. And for whatever it says about me, I'm like, I just love girls and trying to grow up well and like whatever that means in a safe way. And the complexity of it is like obviously very fascinating to me. You know, just what it is like right now for kids trying to grow up, whatever gender really, but just how it's just endlessly complex. And even as we evolve, the complexities don't seem to stop.
- [41:01]
Host
No. If you are seeking. Right. Because I think that there are people. I mean, I have to remind myself, first of all, there are people whose consciousness is very different. There are people are who for whom therapy is not a financial option, literal money or time to do. You know, I think that's something that we forget a lot. You know, I Mean, I even just yesterday in my therapy session, and I had bought an EMDR bar during COVID And so because. And this has an app. And so sometimes I've done it with my therapist. Okay. So. Right. So it has the lights. It's a light spa. So it has the lights, or they're the tappers.
- [41:49]
Anna Konkle
Wow.
- [41:50]
Host
And so my therapist, who's a trauma psychiatrist, so she. In the office. When we were in the office together and I lived in New York then, she would sometimes do the audio EMDR thingy.
- [42:02]
Anna Konkle
Is that like neurofeedback or. That's different.
- [42:05]
Host
No, it's different. Or she'd use her finger or. And so it was just interesting because yesterday we had been talking. This is like, so much oversharing. But we had been talking recently about, okay, why do I not. Why do we sort of get to a moment where it's like, oh, maybe we should do EMDR right now? But I'd have to go get the bar and set it up and my iPad's not charged and all the things. Right. And so we'd agreed that I would have it set up for our next session, which was yesterday. And it was interesting because we got to a point, sort of 40 minutes into the session, where she was like, okay, let's do it. And then I realized, well, we only have 20 minutes, and I have to go to work after this. And so just even this idea of I've been able to carve out this hour to do this. Right. But then you have to sometimes be able to go take a nap afterwards.
- [43:01]
Anna Konkle
Yeah.
- [43:03]
Host
And you don't know. You know, and so I think about that a lot. Right. Because I think there are people who are just not interested in evolving at all. And then there are people for whom they can't be interested because it's just. It's not even a possibility.
- [43:19]
Anna Konkle
Totally, totally. That's. It's very much. And, like, when I think of my mom, who was a nurse and, like, working in elderly homes and sometimes working three jobs.
- [43:27]
Host
Wow.
- [43:28]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. I would look, I was so hard on her, like, and at her lack of patience and her breakdowns or whatever. And thinking back, like, she was just trying to survive. And at the end of the day, she got me to school. She was the one getting the doctor. She was the one making sure I did my homework. She was the one that was buying and wrapping the birthday presents. She was keeping childhood going. She wasn't fun. She wasn't taking me to the movies. She certainly wasn't in a headspace to do Therapy or do work. And so as I started to get older and, like, appreciate complexity and kind of stop with the black and white thinking, I started to appreciate. It took me a minute, but, like, the immense privilege that she had given me, like, Anna, you're going to school. You're going to school in New York City. You have a credit card. Yes. Therapy's racking up in your credit card debt.
- [44:21]
Host
Right.
- [44:21]
Anna Konkle
But you, like, I totally. Yeah. And then. And she is amazing in that she'll make jokes with this memoir coming out that she's like, I have to move out of the universe. But she has the long texts written me so many acknowledgements of, like, I was so stressed. I was so, you know, worried about money, and we were living paycheck to paycheck, and please know I was doing my best.
- [44:48]
Host
I'm sorry to shield you from some of that. What has that sort of healing looked like for you with your mom? Because it sounds like you've gone through deep healing with her in this, sort of almost recategorizing her.
- [45:11]
Anna Konkle
Absolutely, yeah.
- [45:13]
Host
Yeah.
- [45:14]
Anna Konkle
I mean, it's kind of a miracle to me. I feel lucky in that she has is. It's been the perfect storm of someone who was very unhappy when I was younger and trying to keep her shit together under difficult circumstances with a history of trauma to someone that's genuinely interested in working on themselves. And so the moment that she retired and the moment that there was a little bit of space, she's like, none of us are perfect. I'm not operating in a perfect space. But, like, she's. She's trying. She's wanting to reflect, she's wanting to go. She's not just, like, kind of disassociating from the memories I'm bringing up. I don't think she's thrilled when I bring them up, but she's going there with me. And I've heard it before, but it is certainly humbling becoming a parent. And I get to watch her with my daughter, and she's a really good grandmother, and that's really, really neat. And I think I'm appreciating more and more as my daughter's growing up in la and she has, you know, a much more privileged life than I did growing up. I'm also appreciating my mom's weirdness in a different way. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, tell her all the weird things you're thinking, like, give this girl grit. Give her soul, like. And appreciating that in myself, too. And, yeah, and realizing, I mean, truly, like, how hard we are kind of trained to be on our mothers and ourselves. Yes. Yeah.
- [46:50]
Host
Again, as where we started. Patriarchy.
- [46:53]
Anna Konkle
The patriarchy.
- [46:55]
Host
Has she read the Sane One?
- [46:59]
Anna Konkle
So I thought she read the Sane One. I sent it to her a few weeks before. It was, like, final and just kind of saying, what's your memory of this? Is there anything that you don't want me to include? Because there's stuff also about her past that I don't feel like is necessarily my right. And so she was. That's partly when I was getting these long texts of sort of her processing and apologizing or sticking up for herself or whatever. And, yeah, she was pretty amazing about it. And then maybe a few weeks later, I said, like, okay, I think I'm gonna. You didn't ask me to, but I think I'm gonna change this just to hold the family a little more protected. And she was like, what are you talking about? Oh, shit. And I was like, you read it, right? She goes, well, I scanned it. And I was like, okay, well, it's going to print. So. No. But she was like, you know, it was hard. She almost described a feeling of partially disassociating while she was reading it at times. So I don't know. I hope that I did her enough justice. And the truth is that it's a redemptive character arc for her because that's been her real walk. And we've gotten to heal a lot through that.
- [48:19]
Host
I think, too, we're living in times where people do hold more complexity for relationships. And so I think when we read, particularly memoirs, we're looking for all the ways that we feel similarly to the person.
- [48:36]
Anna Konkle
So true.
- [48:37]
Host
Right. And so I'm sure it will resonate. And, you know, in a way, it's. Yeah, yeah. No, it is. It's a very. I mean, I thought about this a lot. It was such a weird thing to bring up. But, yes, I thought about this. I thought about this a lot in a legal realm with really kind of back in the day in 98, and this whole thing of, like, Paula Jones's right to have a trial and, like, where does her right to justice stop and my right to privacy begin? Right. And I feel that sort of with stories, and I think about that a lot. If I haven't written a memoir and I think about, where do you. Where's the line between what's my story and what's someone else's story and where you're crossing that line and, you know, how do you do those things? I mean, I participated in an authorized biography, and I certainly learned from that in a lot of different ways of. Oh, yeah. The person you mentioned from grade school is still the person you mentioned from grade school out in the world. And they may not have, you know, may not have even remembered they knew me in third grade, you know, and so which I did hear from this guy. He was so sweet, and he was like. Because I talked about them having called me Big Mac, and he was so lovely. And he reached out to me. I don't even know how he found me, but he reached out to me and he was like, I am so sorry that I did that. And that was a moment for me and someone else, another guy that I'd gone to grade school with that I had mentioned. And I was like, oh, I hadn't thought about what it means to talk about. I know that, like, for.
- [50:29]
Anna Konkle
That sounds stupid.
- [50:30]
Host
Yes.
- [50:31]
Anna Konkle
What? No, totally.
- [50:32]
Host
It just is a really. That is very interesting thing.
- [50:37]
Anna Konkle
And. And they both kind of apologized.
- [50:39]
Host
Well, one of them didn't need to apologize. It was just.
- [50:42]
Anna Konkle
He should have.
- [50:43]
Host
Yeah. You married somebody else. You should have married. My life would have been different, but it was, you know, I just. I think that with those things that you, you know, just those awarenesses. Right.
- [50:56]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. It was tricky for me because. And by the way, I would melt and die to read your memoir. So I hope one day. But, like, I am kind of like more of a people pleaser, I would say. I wish there was like, less of a buzzword for that. But day to day and most. I think what I've come to is that the work that I make is kind of saying the things that I'm not and operating and showing up in a way that, like, I'm not really comfortable to in my day to day. So the memoir was particularly tricky because I'm constantly nervous about how someone's gonna feel. My editor very early on was like, just write it. Like you're never gonna. Yeah. You're never gonna show it to anybody. And then we'll pull back later. And that is essentially what we did. And there was a lot of name changing. I did kind of, though, come to the. Owning that, like, I will upset a few people and that's okay because. Or have to be willing to. This is my memory, this is my experience, and so I am at least partial owner of it. And no memoir is factual, right.
- [52:09]
Host
Yeah. I mean, it's a memory.
- [52:11]
Anna Konkle
So it comes and goes. And you remember an event, the opposite of me. And I'M not claiming to be the authority. I don't know. That's what I told myself.
- [52:19]
Host
No, I think it is 100% true. And also, I think it was Miley Cyrus who said this great thing about, if you. Some version of if you don't like what I said, then you shouldn't have done the thing that I'm saying you did.
- [52:40]
Anna Konkle
So it's something like that person.
- [52:42]
Host
I know. I think she said it a lot better than I just did.
- [52:45]
Anna Konkle
But no, no, that's great.
- [52:46]
Host
And that's also. But I feel, too. I want to be that person more also, you know, who feels that way. So it's just. Now, I know humor in your family was so important in different humors, but what is your humor relationship like with your husband, Alex?
- [53:07]
Anna Konkle
Ooh, that's such a good question. Dark sense of humor. I mean, dry either. Dry like, you're kind of like, was that real or not? Or very absurd, you know? Yeah, we both love, like, Strangers with Candy and the Comeback and Hacks and, like. But mostly, like, early stuff like Jim Carrey and when things were, like, mostly weird and experimental, even when they were big studio comedies, you know, like Ace Ventura, Pet Detective or whatever. I feel like if I pitched that today, they'd be like, yeah, go to the indie, see if you can get a million dollars to make that, because we're never making that here. But in my opinion, like, you have to be comfortable to make really experimental things that could fall in their face. If you're gonna have a chance at making something that's, like, special and that could make the studios a ton of money, which is obviously what they want. Right? Yeah. So I don't know. What kind of. What do you like?
- [54:13]
Host
Well, I think humor is probably. I guess wit is sort of a big thing. Right. Because if you're witty, then you're also smart. So. Right. You can't be witty and stupid. So I feel like. Right. If you have to, you only get three wishes, you better compound them. But humor is so important to me. I forgive so much.
- [54:35]
Anna Konkle
Me, too.
- [54:36]
Host
For humor, and probably too much. Yeah, probably. My friends who are listening, when you listen to this friends, I know you are all nodding your heads like, yes, I forgive too much. But humor. Because there's something. I don't know. There's just. It's such a layered thing. Right.
- [54:56]
Anna Konkle
And it's humanizing.
- [54:57]
Host
Yes.
- [54:58]
Anna Konkle
I have found with Penn, I'll be surprised at, like, the different kinds of people from different political standpoints that I expected the Republicans to come with torches to pen 15 because of some of the stuff that we're doing. And I'm so surprised how many like super religious, super Christian people. I mean, maybe I'm wrong. And tomorrow there's gonna be. When this comes out, they're gonna be like, you were wrong, we hate you. But I've been surprised how I feel like, yeah, there's something about laughter where you're like, if you're laughing at that weird thing and I'm laughing at that weird thing, then there's a real shared sensibility. Like we do get each other.
- [55:38]
Host
I think it's sort of the patterning of the brain too. Right. And so that thing of, you know, people who just sort of. They'll go, oh, I don't get it. You know, versus where I have friends who, you know, I have one friend, he'll send me an email and I literally will guffaw out loud. I don't think you can guffaw quietly. So silently. So I guffaw because he's just. He's so exacting. He's so fuckin funny.
- [56:09]
Anna Konkle
Well, when you find someone more than that just kills. Oh, that's the best. And I did date for a time. Like someone not funny.
- [56:16]
Host
Oh yes, I've done that. It's very hard.
- [56:19]
Anna Konkle
I need funny. Yeah.
- [56:20]
Host
I also dated someone not smart once and that was. How was that really hard?
- [56:23]
Anna Konkle
Was it. Was it fun at all in the beginning that he wasn't. Was it sort of a relief of like not having to be you, not having to be smart? Or was it.
- [56:33]
Host
No, no. He just had a lot of other really wonderful qualities that I hadn't experienced in dating somebody. And so it was sort of. I tried really hard to ignore it and so. But then I know. I hope every guy I dated is listening to this and there's wondering, is that me?
- [56:54]
Anna Konkle
Is that me?
- [56:55]
Host
Is that me?
- [56:55]
Anna Konkle
Oh my God. What? What was he good at, if you don't mind me asking?
- [56:59]
Host
Well, the PG rated. No, I'm kidding.
- [57:01]
Anna Konkle
But I'd rather not the pg.
- [57:04]
Host
But yeah, I know. You know what he was. I want to be. I'm like thinking because I.
- [57:10]
Anna Konkle
No, no, no. I don't want to give it away.
- [57:11]
Host
No, no, no, no, no. It was just he had a perspective on women's features and their body. That was really eye opening to me of. Because those things weren't necessarily so. It was a very. It was like, oh, I didn't know a man could think this way. Okay, that's interesting, huh? That feels really nice. You know, so I Think that way. And he was. He's a very gentle soul. Very, very gentle soul. And so, you know, I can relate
- [57:51]
Anna Konkle
to as much as, like, I can, you know, burn my own torch about the patriarchy. It does kind of highlight the relationships with certain men that, like, we're healing.
- [58:01]
Host
Yeah.
- [58:02]
Anna Konkle
You know, And I also, like, my first love. First time I fell in love, I was sort of like, a mess and realizing what a mess I was. But, like, that was, like, my first experience having sex, and it was a trial of errors. Eventually. Yeah, trying the first time where I was like, why is he not getting the condom? What am I doing wrong? But eventually. Eventually, like, it was just. He was, like, so patient and kind and. And made me realize, like, how many physical and emotional walls I had up where I would do this thing where, like, whenever he looked into my eyes, I feel so weird to talk about. I would, like, wrinkle. Crinkle my nose, probably because of my bump. I mean, if I'm being honest, probably because, like, on some psychological level, I'm going, like, make the bump smaller, like something psychotic, if I'm being honest. And. And he'd be like, you don't have to do that. You're so. Like, he kind of just knew. And it didn't come through critically. It came through, like, therapeutically, where it was just, like, this slow learning of what, like, a gentle love looked like that I had never witnessed, you know, so. Shout out to the men that are.
- [59:16]
Host
Yeah, it's. I mean, I definitely feel. Especially post 98. How do I say this the right way? I can visualize it quite poetically. So I'm like, how do I give words to this? I think that there's. Like, I was so shattered. And so I think they all helped me in different ways, like, find pieces of myself in dating after. In dating after. Even if they also cracked that piece. Right. Does that make sense? Like, it's not as if there maybe wasn't pain or more trauma or more this, but they. They still. The relationship with them still brought me back a piece of myself. Does that make sense?
- [60:02]
Anna Konkle
Absolutely makes sense.
- [60:03]
Host
At least in our weird dream world. And yes.
- [60:05]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, I relate to that, too. With every relationship that I had and everyone being imperfect like I was, and the shit that I brought to the table, too.
- [60:12]
Host
Oh, my God.
- [60:15]
Anna Konkle
That time I was in the fetal position. He's like, are you okay? I'm like, I feel. Yeah, yeah, no, me too. Me too. We're still in therapy here, right?
- [60:23]
Host
I know. You know, just as something that I loved Like a detail about your story of your mom having a doll, Jana, that was her inner child, right? Yeah. Is that. Yeah, that is like. So she was way ahead of her time.
- [60:39]
Anna Konkle
She was, yeah. And as much as my dad, because my dad sort of taught me we would. Part of the humor of growing up in our house was like mom's crystals, right? Mom's Janet. And at the time her name was Janet. She changed her name to Jana. Cause it's more open.
- [60:54]
Host
I love that.
- [60:55]
Anna Konkle
I know that.
- [60:55]
Host
That is so true.
- [60:57]
Anna Konkle
It is. It's like I need to like, get out the high schooler in me that's still like, ugh, you know, the eye roll. But like, as I get older, there is genuine reverence growing and building. Maybe by the time I'm 80, I'll just like only be bowing down to it. But yeah, she was ahead of. And she. I wonder. Yeah, I think it was a therapist back in the day in Vermont that advised. But it is weird being a kid and being like, why do you have a baby doll?
- [61:26]
Host
Right.
- [61:27]
Anna Konkle
And her being like, it's little Janet. Yeah. It was her delivery. She's such a character. And she's so funny in how she delivers things.
- [61:36]
Host
Earnest.
- [61:37]
Anna Konkle
It sounds like, so earnest. If she had been like, oh, you
- [61:40]
Host
know, if there's something my therapist.
- [61:42]
Anna Konkle
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's not self deprecating, but to that same degree, that's what makes her so special. Is she. I mean, I remember from such a young age her being like, anna, women are magic. We're witches. We for, you know, in history, we make babies in our bodies. And then men realized we were witches and then they wanted to take the magic from us and whatever. And at the time I was like, oh, my God, this is like ruining my life. And now I look back and I'm like, this is what people are like, yeah. Putting on Instagram today. Like, oh my God. You know what I mean? I'm like, yeah, this is. This is what she raised me in. So pretty special to.
- [62:22]
Host
So the last question I ask everybody is if there's anything that you are currently. I mean, you just finished a memoir, so it feels like to ask you, what are you currently working on? Reclaiming anything. And we use a really elastic definition, right. So it could be a person or a hobby or a thing.
- [62:41]
Anna Konkle
Okay.
- [62:42]
Host
Or a place.
- [62:44]
Anna Konkle
I'm. I mean, I think I'm reclaiming. And it does have to do the book. Is that okay?
- [62:51]
Host
Yes, of course. I think I, the sane one, buy it now.
- [62:55]
Anna Konkle
From the not so sane one. Yeah, I think I'm. I feel like I'm reclaiming my relationship with my father from, like, a black and white, he's my best friend, to he's not. You know, putting him in the not good person category for a while to, like, he is. He was and is a complex being, and I'm so grateful that he was my dad. And I'm reclaiming trauma as being something that I don't think I would change.
- [63:28]
Host
Wow.
- [63:29]
Anna Konkle
Yeah. I think I'm, like, for whatever reason today might change next week, like, really grateful for what it has given me, so. Wow.
- [63:41]
Host
What an amazing integration.
- [63:43]
Anna Konkle
Weird.
- [63:44]
Host
That's great. Thanks. Yeah. Thank you so much. This was so great. Now I get to give you a crystal.
- [63:52]
Anna Konkle
Really?
- [63:52]
Host
Wait till you tell your mom.
- [63:53]
Anna Konkle
Oh, my God, she's gonna be so jealous. Sam.