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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:20]
Brooke Shields
Hi.
- [00:20]
Monica Lewinsky
On today's episode, I spoke with the amazing Brooke Shields. From her first modeling gig at 11 months old, so starring roles in Hollywood films, as a tween, her own sitcom and Broadway shows, Brooke has really lived her whole life in the public eye. She's also used her platform to change the conversation around postpartum depression and aging. I really loved talking to her. I hope you find something in our chat to connect to. And thanks for joining us on Reclaiming. Hi, Brooke.
- [01:03]
Brooke Shields
Hi, Monica.
- [01:04]
Monica Lewinsky
First, I just want to say I think you're an extraordinary person, an extraordinary woman and a human being. And just like, I've known about you most of my life, but I think doing this deeper dive to get to talk to you, I just, like, I don't know, not to sound cheesy. I just, like, honor so much of what you've been through.
- [01:25]
Brooke Shields
Thank you. I loved our talk when I had my time to be with you for the. Yeah.
- [01:32]
Monica Lewinsky
On now what? Your podcast. Now what?
- [01:35]
Brooke Shields
Which is no longer. But it was. I got to. Yeah. No, I loved our chat and I've loved every time I've run into you. And we have some really good mutual friends, so it's always nice. And I think you're lovely and I think you're also extraordinary, so.
- [01:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, thank you. Yeah, of course. I was, like, very aware I'm only a few years younger than you, and so I became aware of you as a kid and feel like as soon as I've known about anything in the world, I've known about you. And then even I had this poster of you on my wall in my bedroom. And I think it was an anti smoking.
- [02:16]
Brooke Shields
Did you have cigarettes out of the ears?
- [02:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, yes. And my dad is a radiation oncologist, so. So, like. And he gave it to me, which made sense when I kind of put everything together of, you know, like, why did I have a, like, poster?
- [02:31]
Brooke Shields
Well, it was this whole campaign of, like, smoking spoils your looks. And I did all these commercials where, you know, if someone's been smoking and, you know, you come home and your hair smells like smoke.
- [02:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [02:43]
Brooke Shields
And it was this sort of. It was an anti smoking campaign. Then I had to. They were pulled. It's funny that my voice sounds like this because I went to go see a show last night and there was all this haze. Oh, no, And I've literally, like, my voice is squeaking because of it. I have asthma, so. But anyway, I was brought to D.C. to testify in front of Congress because of my smoking ads, and they pulled all of them. The tobacco lobbyists were so powerful. They pulled all of. And said because of my early movies, I was an inappropriate role model based on my acting roles. And therefore, they pulled the commercials and they pulled the poster and they nixed the whole thing.
- [03:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Are you fucking kidding me?
- [03:37]
Brooke Shields
Isn't that amazing? It's amazing.
- [03:40]
Monica Lewinsky
It is. But also, too, I feel like that would never happen to a man.
- [03:46]
Brooke Shields
No, but it would happen today. I think it would still happen today. There would be some moral high ground that someone would. They would be able to do and that they're so powerful and the echo industry is so powerful. And, you know, I mean, it's so. It's just. It was so interesting to me because I was only 15, maybe 14 or 15, and it was, you know, the panel. Not one woman was on the panel, but. And I was with my mom. And I was so attacked. Like, my character was attacked, like, and I thought, God, I'm an actress. Like, if I played a murderer, would you have said I was not, you know, the appropriate person to say, don't smoke, like, but because I had played a prostitute because of Endless Love and Blue Lagoon and the sort of sexual nature, they went down that. They went down that path and I mean, obliterated me. Like, it was so. Honey, it was just.
- [04:53]
Monica Lewinsky
You know. Yes, I know. The whole. When you go through. I didn't have to testify before Congress. They let me do it in the presidential suite at a hotel instead. It was so kind. There's no table of message.
- [05:07]
Brooke Shields
There was no. There was no thought put behind that.
- [05:12]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no, no, not at all.
- [05:13]
Brooke Shields
You know, I don't like saying things are about male, female. Like, I don't always want to resort to that. It's like when I wrote my most recent book, I wanted to make sure that it didn't. It wasn't from an anger standpoint. You know, it's not a burning of the bra, and it's not a. You know, it's not an activist in that way. But there are actual differences, and you see them, you know, which is why I think I was also so shocked when women who were in power pulled similar things on me because they're predominantly in the male world.
- [05:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Like, what's the most memorable one of those instances?
- [05:53]
Brooke Shields
I think Barbara Walters basically asking me on live television what my measurements were. And then Making me stand up next to her so that we could Compare. I was 16, maybe, or 15, 16. And she was in her late 30s, I think. And she was comparing her shape to mine on tv. And I remember standing up and you could see my face. Like, this doesn't feel right. But she's a mom. Like, she should know this stuff.
- [06:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:24]
Brooke Shields
So interesting.
- [06:25]
Monica Lewinsky
It is, I think, like, I don't know if we're there yet in history, but I think we'll get there. At some point of looking at the trajectory of the. The women anchors who had to. Who broke the ceiling.
- [06:39]
Brooke Shields
Right.
- [06:39]
Monica Lewinsky
They still had to. They had to present very feminine, but they had to still play by a lot of the men's rules.
- [06:46]
Brooke Shields
And I talked to Katie Couric about this very thing.
- [06:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, okay. Interesting.
- [06:51]
Brooke Shields
Because she had that whole. You know, there were rules, and, you know, those same rules sort of didn't apply. Like, nobody was telling the men what to wear. But I guess, you know, they have a suit and that's it. But there was also a. But you had to wear makeup and you had to do your hair, and you still had to be appealing as a woman, which that kind of interesting double standard was interesting to talk to her about.
- [07:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. The same thing happens to women who were in the public eye, like in a court situation. Right. I remember when Martha Stewart was testifying and was being prosecuted, and it's like, well, what did she wear? And Hermes bag and her, you know, those things, or thinking about what I had to wear.
- [07:36]
Brooke Shields
That's why it was so genius that she wore the cape.
- [07:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I don't remember that part.
- [07:40]
Brooke Shields
Remember the cape that was made for her in prison. Then she marketed it and she sold it.
- [07:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God. Oh, that's amazing.
- [07:47]
Brooke Shields
I don't know if it was made by someone in prison or if it was made for her, but I think it was made and she, like, wore it to court. And then she came out with a line of them of some kind of. It was kind of genius. But. And that's what I remember. I may be wrong, but that's what I remember.
- [08:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I hope that's what it was. And if not, you should rewrite her history, because that's a pretty good story. It's a baller. I don't know if you feel this way, but from the outside, it looks like the world has been trying to tell you who you are or did for a long time of, you know, you're America's sweetheart. You're the Calvin Klein model. You're the most Beautiful baby. A girl who somehow was allowed to age or have opinions or be a fully formed human. And I guess, you know, I felt maybe I'm projecting in some ways because I think I felt like I've had my narrative taken from me at times and told by the world who I was supposed to be. I mean, that was part of why I wanted to talk to you for Reclaiming. So also welcome to the show. Sorry, I forgot that part. I'm still.
- [08:52]
Brooke Shields
Thank you.
- [08:53]
Monica Lewinsky
Still learning all the things. But you're entering a new decade soon and you have this new book out. Brooke Shields is not allowed to Get Old. I mean, that is. That title says so much.
- [09:08]
Brooke Shields
I couldn't believe they went for it. We were like, they're not gonna go for it. I'm not gonna go for it. And then they were like, wait a minute. I said, it's gotta have an edge to it. Because people. I mean. And I think, I think why it's resonating is that it is my story. Everything I say is just coming from my own experience. But there is a collective experience that women are feeling and they feel pressured to, to never get old, to not celebrate their years or their, you know, I'm not saying celebrate your wrinkles or celebrate the fact that you're know, knees are sagging. I could tie a knot in them. But it's, it's not, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying, like we are under pressure from, from, in a very different way from the male gaze, from, from the news, from marketers, from, you know, there, there's so much. And you know, if you are Princess Diana or, you know, or Marilyn Monroe or, you know, some of these people that we've, we've really gotten so attached to, if they die young, they stay young, you know, that is who they are. We never saw her old. We never saw. And there's something that people get very attached to and you know, it could have been a poster of me or Lula Coon or the Calvin Klein's are the first genes. They're parents let them wear or, you know, and there's something that if I change and I grow, what does that mean about them? It sort of turns the mirror around and it, it's uncomfortable for people. And I was at a party and I was talking to this man and he was being very lovely and, you know, paying attention and was interested and, you know, he was, you know, he was kind of doing the. Doing the guy thing, you know, kind of.
- [11:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [11:08]
Brooke Shields
And touching you and I Mentioned my age and we were talking about wine and I said, oh, you know, I wonder. Cause I was writing this book, I thought, I Wonder if a 1965 bottle of something red does it turn to jam? You know, like that was funny to me. I thought, oh, that'd be a good chapter. Like am I in my jam phase?
- [11:34]
Monica Lewinsky
Right?
- [11:34]
Brooke Shields
Just to sort of take everything. Women, you know, get better with age, just like wine. And then you're like, yeah, but there's another message that you were getting. So I, he changed his tone immediately when he heard my age. And he knee jerk reaction, said, you really, I really wish you didn't tell me that. You didn't, you didn't need to tell me that. And I was so taken aback because I thought, I said, why does that make you older? And he said, well, yeah, but. And I thought, oh, wow, you can't flirt with a 58 year old. Wow. You can flirt with maybe a 20, 30 year old, but that's kind of where the line gets drawn, you know, once you're 40, you're not flirtable anymore. Or, you know, and there was, there was something. What if he was caught? Not he didn't do anything. But I'm saying like if he was, that wasn't a cool concept for him to sort of be seen in that light with someone who is almost 60. You know, that's like a grandmother, right?
- [12:37]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, you have a great quote actually from your book where you're talking about this and the stigma of invisibility and stuff. And you say maybe the point is to confuse and surprise everyone about who we are. And I just love that. And I think that's pretty much. You just exemplified that in both the thinking about with the wine and what you're saying to the guy.
- [12:59]
Brooke Shields
But I think that that's, you know, we're very capable of pivoting as women. You know, we're capable of multitasking. We're capable of, you know, and it's. I don't, I don't go all the time and say it's about procreation or whatever, but there's a reason why if you are capable of bringing a child right into the world, right? And you house them and you know, like, and all that, like stuff that you have to go through, you gotta really want them, you know, cause it's not an easy thing. But just by virtue of that, we're quite formidable. And we also have to be able to think about that and this and that and recognize that and have eyes behind your head. Here and notice, oh, that person. I know where they're coming from. And you have to be at the ready. But there's something sort of fabulously formidable about that to me. And I like the idea that you talk about reclaiming and, you know, your narrative, you have this in a million, a million times, is you tap into your intelligence. And you've done that. I've seen you do that. Thank you. For decades. But that's a real strong point for women that we're not really taught. You know, we're taught sort of look a certain way, but just keep your mouth shut and just, you know. And I know that's an old concept, but it still is today. And, you know, I go into these venture capital meetings and, you know, trying to get people's money, basically fundraising. And, you know, if it's a man, I'm immediately put in my place and told what I don't know. And being told sort of from another place. When I go into women's meetings, they don't say it like that. They say, have you tried this? Cause this worked for us when we were starting this business. And it's so interesting to me that. Cause I don't ever want to fully adapt. I don't think you have to act like a man to be in a male dominated. Whatever. I don't think so.
- [15:07]
Monica Lewinsky
But, you know, it's interesting because you were mentioning some of the evolutionary stuff and it's funny because when I was talking to the producers yesterday and we were chatting about what we're all excited to hear from you in different ways, and we ended up in this conversation talking about fucking Darwin. And I mean, just. But like this feeling of me.
- [15:30]
Brooke Shields
But he knew kind of what he was talking about. Like the trees go to the sun and the ones that are, you know, there's an adaptability.
- [15:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, Adaptability. And also there's sort of the survival of the fittest. Exactly. But it can feel, I think sometimes as a woman, like, who's aging, that we're almost trying to swim against natural selection in that way because we haven't found the place for wisdom with women yet. In a way, like, to me, the beauty that comes from wisdom and appreciating that. I don't know. I don't know if this is all.
- [16:09]
Brooke Shields
Making sense, but it is so interesting because that wisdom has to be earned and you learn how to know your audience. I recently went to D.C. again to not to testify, but to lobby, which is. I am not that person. But it was for Equity, Actors Equity, and it was for arts funding. And the first time I went, I went in and I went through all the touchy feely aspects of why the arts are important. And during the times of distress, we turned to the arts and all of this, and it was like it was on deaf ears. It was just. You could see people's eyes glazing over. And I thought, oh, my God, I'm not. I'm doing the very thing, you know, I'm trying to do slapstick in a Shakespeare theater. Like, what was I. I mean, Shakespeare also had a lot of humor, but he's dead, so he's not gonna get mad at me. But I was like, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? And I realized that it wasn't until I started talking about economics and the economic value to the arts that they perked up. And I thought, brooke, take your own advice. Like, know your audience. Talk to them about the things that are going to register with them. And I think that that's like. That's taken wisdom and growing older for me, because it used to only be about, like, getting being liked. You know, I just wanted to be approved of and liked. And then I got my star and I got my pat on the back, and I was considered nice. And that meant whatever it meant. There was currency in that. And now the currency of someone who's almost 60 is it's not about wanting to be liked. It's just about finding ways to be heard and listened to and have your thoughts and beliefs. Whether the other person disagrees is fine, but you've put yourself on record for yourself, you know, And I think that that is what you're talking about. Darwin. Like, I'm going to drop a name, but Gloria Steinem, right? I'm. I just. I'm a huge fan of her as a. As a person, and I've met her many times, and she said, you know, every important movement started in a basement, in a kitchen, at a little table, in a corner of a. And. And now you look back and you see the progress in hindsight. And I think we're in that in a very interesting place as females now. And because we are past childbearing age, technically, I mean, I don't even think I have any eggs left, but you need a chisel to make them crack. But that value and has nothing to do with whether you want kids or don't want kids or whatever happened. I mean, it was the only thing I knew for sure growing up. But when that value dissipates, the even more focal point Comes to beauty and comes to youth. And, you know, I have two girls, like, who are 19 and soon to be 22, and you just. They're at the beginning of their rosiness and fullness, and you're just like, wow, I did not appreciate that when I had it.
- [19:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Same, same.
- [19:47]
Brooke Shields
No, you glow. You're so beautiful.
- [19:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, thanks. I mean, you, too. But I think it's been interesting for me because I think sometimes I hear people say more complimentary things about my physical appearance now than they did in 1998, for certain. And some of that, I think, can come from. It's fascinating to me, with a background in psychology, like, it's just.
- [20:14]
Brooke Shields
It's. You had to have a background in psychology.
- [20:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, exactly. But it's interesting to sort of think about how much of what we see and perceive is impacted by what we're hearing and reading and our feelings about someone. So when people like, this is still my face. It's the same face. I was born with the same face. I had 22 and 24 and 30. All the. I mean, it has Botox and filler in it, but, you know, like, I try to go natural with it, or natural looking, I should say.
- [20:50]
Brooke Shields
But, like, here's the. Let's stop there for just one second, because I don't currently have anything in my face, but I'm gonna start a show, and I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna be like, okay, what can you do? Can you peel this? But I still need expression. Can you take the big, deep breath like it's there for. It's like it's there. So there shouldn't be any shame in it. But then you don't do anything. There's shame. If you do too much, there's shame. How are people to know? It's the only way to even be able to walk through your life is to just do what the fuck you want to do. Like, just. I went to an opening of a musical last night. There was a big.
- [21:35]
Monica Lewinsky
What'd you see?
- [21:36]
Brooke Shields
I saw Stranger Things. But when I was. After I finished the red carpet, I know all the ushers because I've been on stage so much, and they're the same ushers. They go to different theaters sometimes. And so I've been in the trenches with these people, you know, and I. I recognize them and I say hi. And then, like, they brought me in front of the line of some other people, and I know them. Like, I asked one about his daughter and the other one, you know, and I was like. I was like, oh, you switch theaters. And they were so happy to say hi to someone that they recognized from working with them. And a guy in line got very disgruntled that I. That some woman was being put in front of him. And he looked at me, looked, and he went, no, it's just a housewife. A real housewife. They thought I was a real housewife. And I was like, is that a compliment? I don't know if it is. Like, I mean, they present pretty well. Like, they all do a lot of, like, you know, they put it together and they. And I was. I didn't hear it. My assistant heard it and she said. I wheeled around on them and I said, she is not a real housewife. But like, the connotation of that, that, like, there's so much in that statement, you know, I don't even know how to unpack it. Cause I don't really didn't spend any time on it until just a second. But there is that. They're so quick to assess your size. Your. Not yours, but one's a woman's size, a woman's wrinkles, a woman's this. It just gets so at. And I was. I mean, from the time I was a little girl, you know, I was told, you know, you don't do Runway. You're. You're the face. Cause your body. I didn't fit into any of the Runway clothes. Cause I was never slouched. Wow. I was like, my hands are big. Like, I've got, you know, like, I. They look really big there in the front of the camera. Gun, gung, gung. But they, you know, that was the narrative that I grew up with, is she's too big for Runway, or she's the curvy. She's the athletic one, which in modern meant you weren't skinny. She's the big girl. And then it became like, oh, she's big boned. And, you know, you walk around. I was 6 foot at the time, and you think, God, I must be a giant. Like, I must be horrible. You know, because it's being taught, barked at you, either right to you or about you. You know, so it's. It's just so interesting that what women do have to contend with and how do you not fall prey to it? How do you, you know, how do you find your balance in what you're okay with? You know, that has to be it. Because you can't do any of it or not do any of it for other people.
- [24:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Right? And I think that's. I think Back to that, you know, what you've talked about is sort of that sense of aging on our own terms and that, you know, that there is the biology, there is the natural selection thing that is still always there, even in how we see people and assess people. It's like, right. Our reptilian brain of, is this person safe or are they not safe? Right. I wanted to pivot a little, and I'm kind of obsessed with your documentary Pretty Baby, so. As opposed to the Louis mall film from 78. And so this, you know, this came out, I think. Was it a year or two ago? I know it's on Hulu now.
- [25:34]
Brooke Shields
I think it was two years ago now. Wow.
- [25:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Seeing it reminded me. My memories of you were just rosy because you were sort of this golden girl, right. For me growing up. But you were sexualized so much. And of course, the documentary talks about that. What was it like for you to sort of film the documentary? To be looking back in all those ways, which I'm sure you look back all the time, but to do it in such a pointed way.
- [26:01]
Brooke Shields
I don't look back. I mean, I think that I never used to. I never watched anything. Any movies I was in, there was this like, nope, it's my work, and that's it. And I'm gonna shut it down. I'm gonna have a normal life. I'm gonna go to school. I'm gonna have friends. Like, it was so. I was so compartmentalized. And my mom also did keep a lot of the negative publicity from me, you know, and. And. But she also didn't show me the good stuff. Like, you know, she's like, we're just gonna not think about what their opinion is. We're just going to keep. You're going to keep working. And if we do this movie, we get a car. If we do that movie, we get to be in a bigger apartment or, you know, it was very transactional, and we were a team. But watching me in those early, early interviews defending my mom and seeing my uncomfortable little face, like, when I'm being asked these, like, crazy questions and. Or they're saying horrible things about my mother to my face while my mother's sitting next to me. And you look at this little girl just wanting to keep her mom alive, like, you know, it, and it's hard. That was heartbreaking. Like, I even come out of the documentary going, how am I not in a straight jacket? Like, how have I gotten this, you know, far? But you had to fight for it. And I think because it started so early for me, there was so much that I learned to fight early. I didn't find my voice until much, much later, because when I went to university, when I got an education and I came out, people were mad that I had an education because I couldn't be walked all over in the same way. I wasn't manipulatable in the same way. And that was a shock to me because I thought, oh, they're gonna love this. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm now getting crucified for that. Like, what? So there's the. If you start to show strength or growth or independence or confidence, you get attacked even more. And that, you know, that was tough for me to learn. And when I saw the documentary, I was very moved by myself as a little girl, really trying to hang on and hold on and stick up for someone I loved so much. You know, who I felt loved from, didn't matter. The alcoholism, the craziness, whatever. The baseline was love. And that went a long way.
- [28:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah. No, that's. You must miss her a lot.
- [28:54]
Brooke Shields
I miss. The end was kind of like. I don't miss that. Very riddled with dementia. Fear in her eyes like that. That part. She was so distant. But I miss the laughing that we. We had together, and I laugh a great deal with my girls. So humor is what I have retained from her. And there are things that happen in my life, and I kind of go, did you do this? I know you did this. You did this, right? And you are laughing up there or maybe in the middle or maybe down on. She probably moves around a lot. She wanted to make sure she touched a lot of bases.
- [29:42]
Monica Lewinsky
But, you know, going back to sort of when you're saying, how are you not in a straitjacket? I think humor is one of our biggest saviors in difficult times. It just is. It's a fork in the road, right? You have, like, a horrible thing happen. It's like, you can either go down this poor me sad path, or you find the humor in the moment. And, you know, I talked to Margaret Cho on the podcast, and she told this, like, horrifying and amazing story about wanting to take her own life, and I hope I'm gonna get it right. And it was like, she tried to. This is, like, so graphic. But she tried to thinking about hanging herself, and she couldn't. She was like, I'm too fucking fat to even kill myself. Like, it's way too much. I'm gonna have to wait to. I'm gonna have to, like, lose more weight. In order to be able to do this, which is, you know, I think if anybody who listens doesn't have gallows humor and doesn't understand, you know, the thing in there. But it is, I think, the laughter. I know. That's what saved me so many times of. And my family.
- [30:55]
Brooke Shields
I think it has to, because. And it's not. Yes. Maybe it's a survival tactic or a defense mechanism, but if you step a little bit back, the ridiculousness of things. Like, I remember being the only one in the room, having to go view my mom's body. And she didn't have any relatives, or. I mean, not that she spoke to, or they didn't. Anyway, whatever. She had a sister who was still alive. But I'm in the room, and I'm, like, looking at this weird thing that's lying out, and you're kind of like, wow, this is weird. And all of a sudden it occurs to me, oh, my God. I don't remember picking out pants for her. I just picked out a shirt. And there were two shirts, both leopard print. She loved animal prints. She was in that phase of her life. And one was a really nice silk one, like by Dolce Gabbana or something. And then the other one was, like, a shitty cotton one. And I started with the nice one. I was like, gonna bury you in something. Or not bury, but cream it. You in something really nice. And I was like, no, I'm not. I'm gonna keep the silk one. That's Dolce Gabbana. And I'm gonna put her in the. That's gonna get burned anyway. I was like. So then I realized I didn't pick out pants. And all of a sudden I was like, no. Oh, no. I look around, I'm like, no, that.
- [32:23]
Monica Lewinsky
No.
- [32:24]
Brooke Shields
And I was like, well, you gotta look, right? So I go. And I lift up in the blanket with the plastic or whatever. She's got no pants on. And I was like, oh, my God. That might be the funniest, most horrific thing I've ever witnessed in my entire life. And I'll never get over it. But it was so funny when I recounted it in my mind. Like, it was horror and hysterical at the same time.
- [32:52]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, Right. Oh, my God. That's amazing. That's amazing.
- [32:58]
Brooke Shields
I'm glad Margaret didn't succeed.
- [33:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, me too. Me too. I think we get reminded in so many different ways, especially in today's world. There's just so much suffering and, you know, and that thing of, like. You never know what someone is. Like, what someone's actually going through. Right. And the sort of faces we present. It's a lot, but it's.
- [33:22]
Brooke Shields
I think you brought it up, though, too, like not letting yourself be a victim, I think is. And bad stuff happens. Bad stuff happens, and people are mean and the world can be really harsh. But it's how you come through it and what you decide to categorize it as. You know, like the things that I've watched where people have become very comfortable with being a victim and that becomes their mo. They're not happy, their lives are shorter. They go through life with this, you know. Yeah. Acknowledge that happens and it does. And. And it. It's all relative, you know, I mean, obviously there's stuff that's absolutely horrific in the world, and, you know, I can't necessarily identify with it, but it's bad. But you hear just in your own circle, you see those who are very comfortable being victims. And that, to me, is very dangerous and sad.
- [34:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I think it's a lot. It almost feels like the parallel of, you know, when people talk about forgiveness, it's sort of. It's not about saying that the behavior that the other person engaged in is okay. That's not the dynamic. And I think the same, too, is that you can have been victimized and sort of be a victim. Noun, lowercase v. But to embody it as your identity. That's where it's. I wrote a piece actually, a few years ago about. It was called who Gets to Live in Victimville? And it was. Because it's really interesting to me. I mean, I think you'll probably be able to relate as a public person that it's this. It's a discussion. I mean, we see this whether. Even with people who aren't necessarily public, but stories are talked about, other people are trying to decide whether or not you're a victim. Like, trying to describe your behavior, like your experience. It's really interesting to me. It's just a fascinating observation of society.
- [35:41]
Brooke Shields
But it really revolves it. It really kind of goes right back to them. Like, you know, it's all about that person, you know, And I think, you know, I have to be. If somebody is sort of nasty at me, you know, I. It doesn't not hurt, like. But then I have to kind of go, okay, wait a minute. Where is this coming from? It's coming from their need for something. It has nothing to do with me but to have empathy rather than pity. Pity is hard for me because I feel it, and then I lose respect. And that's like that's dangerous too. You know what I mean? Like, I have to really reign my everything in and say, like, okay, first of all, take yourself out of it. That's hard to do. And then, you know, where is that person coming from? And do I. Do I need that person's validation? Probably not, you know, but I have to go through this like, series of like, I have to talk myself through this series. Otherwise I either get hurt or I get super angry and petty and I can't live like that, you know.
- [36:57]
Monica Lewinsky
So it's interesting sort of going back to the documentary. Cause I think there were so many things that it touched on. One is I reference a lot actually, which is that it was talking about. I can't recall now. I'm sorry if it was you who said this or someone else, but was pointing out about how with feminism that happened in the sixties of independence of Roe v. Wade, women going back to work, that that sort of triggered a shift in the collective, like, I guess the collective gaze. Going from our focus on women like Marilyn Monroe and Sophia Loren to saying, okay, if you. These kinds of women are now going to want their independence, we will focus on the girls. And that was a doctor.
- [37:51]
Brooke Shields
I wish I said that, but it was one of the doctors that got psychologist and sociologist. Anyway. Very, very smart. Very.
- [38:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it was so eye opening to me because I. From my own experiences, I've always been interested in this period where I think we started to see in the late 90s too. And early aughts of these young women being scandalized, like feasted on for the world.
- [38:20]
Brooke Shields
Right.
- [38:21]
Monica Lewinsky
In different ways. And seeing what happened with you and how it was sort of. Some of this shift of the gaze to girls was really interesting to me.
- [38:34]
Brooke Shields
Well, and also it's, you know, like one of the things. And I wrote my thesis about Louis Mal and about Pretty Baby and another film, La Comb Lucien, which is another movie he did about the loss of innocence. And the last shot of the film of Pretty Baby, Violet's character looks right down the lens and it was breaking the fourth wall. There was a child running behind her, blurred. And it was at that moment that the gaze shifts and she becomes very empowered. And that character says, oh yeah, I'm the sexual being. And now I'm supposed to be a cute little girl with this new perfect life. And. And he said. And he just. He said, I want you to stare down the lens and it's gonna be uncomfortable. And it's just. But he said that's. He didn't explain it to me. Then that way. Cause I was only 11. But in looking at it later, the symbolism of it was amazing. And when you. What you're saying about the shift now, there's this movement for the, you know, the cougar with the young guy. It's like the through line is sex, right? Sex sells. That's what is appealing. It's otherworldly. It is, you know, the world needs it. But if there's a problem with it or people have a problem with it, then gotta shift to something else. You know, then it was the young girls and now it's the, you know, oh, you can't. But then if she's with a younger man, that makes it cool. Like, it's just so interesting where we're gonna be next, you know. Yes, my girls are, you know, just body image wise, they. They celebrate their bodies in a way that I never could or would or. And that's positive to me. You know, they embrace their curves and their size and you know, and you know, they're not emaciated and they're not getting stuff done and. But they're. They. They look at their selves a lot and they spend time on their individual selves. And that I found really interesting being watching that and remembering what I felt like when I was younger.
- [40:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. I think there was. I think about myself. I was always into fashion, like even as a. As a. I mean, my mom loves to tell these stories of me, you know, in kindergarten and I refused to go to school until she cut my dress. And like I had a very specific idea of how I wanted to look. But I think then once I became aware of body types and sort of, you know, and body shapes, it then became about what am I allowed to wear, what is okay to wear and what I see, you know. So it's interesting for me to look at the younger generations. And I catch myself at first going, I can't believe she's wearing that. And then I have to. Then I'm trying to retrain myself to just. This is a person who's wearing something they feel good in. They're wearing something that they feel reflects who they are. And it's. I can't even imagine the freedom of that just. Cause I just didn't grow up in that world, you know, I didn't either.
- [41:58]
Brooke Shields
I mean, I saw my daughters last week and I did a performance at their school and. And then they came out and they were going to a party and I was just gonna go back to their house. The house and my younger daughter who's like 6, 2. She came with this teeny dress and boots. And I was like, oh, my God. I go, was that a belt? What is that? You know? And she's like, mom. And I like, no. And I went, I mean, you look beautiful, but can we pull your dress down a little bit? Only, you know, because you're watching your little baby girl.
- [42:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [42:40]
Brooke Shields
And it's just like, ah. But she. They, they take the time and they, they feel good about it and they, you know, and they're wearing these little mini dresses with cowboy boots and you're just like, what is happening? But that's. They're very empowered in one way generation. Right?
- [43:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, and they're sort of, you know, I think it's like, it's that period too, where you're trying on different identities still. And so it is that. And it's so much harder with social media, I think, for young people to do that. But we still. But you've, like, you're so funny. You've been so funny in our conversation. Just witty and funny. And you love doing comedy, right? But you also do, obviously, musical theater. Cause you did Cabaret and Grease, right?
- [43:34]
Brooke Shields
Yep, Grease. First Cabaret, Chicago and the West End of New York. And then Addams Family.
- [43:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [43:42]
Brooke Shields
Whenever they need a replacement, they usually call me.
- [43:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, come on. No, no, no.
- [43:47]
Brooke Shields
It's true. And it's been wonderful because, I mean, they don't give you enough rehearsal time. But, you know, a lot of these shows, if you originate a role, you've gotta be doing it for a year and you have to be doing it all over the country and then just to get to Broadway. So, I mean, like, learn a show in nine days and get shot out of a cannon on Broadway, but survived it and was able to play Morticia and Roxie Hart and Rizzo. You know what I mean?
- [44:14]
Monica Lewinsky
In nine days. You learned the whole show in nine days?
- [44:19]
Brooke Shields
Nine days.
- [44:20]
Monica Lewinsky
What the. Oh, my gosh.
- [44:22]
Brooke Shields
It is. You don't wanna spend the money and you do it in a room with tape. Wow. And a stage manager. You don't ever meet the director. But comedy, I can't live without it.
- [44:36]
Monica Lewinsky
And then you're also performing. I was trying to think. I feel like I might have seen you. You were at the Carlisle, right?
- [44:43]
Brooke Shields
I was at the Carlisle, yep.
- [44:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, but I.
- [44:46]
Brooke Shields
Or maybe Feinstein's. Maybe like featherback.
- [44:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Maybe, Maybe. But you were saying in your book, right, that you almost didn't do your one woman show is that.
- [44:59]
Brooke Shields
I had a seizure. I had a grand mal seizure three days before opening at the Carlisle. And I had flooded my system because I drank so much water that I flushed all the sodium out of my system, and my system shut down. And I, you know, I passed out in a restaurant. I don't remember. And next thing you know, I'm in an ambulance. And I luckily got better. I. They. You know, they kept me there for a little while and then sent me home. And then I was able to. I had two rehearsal shows in Indianapolis, and I canceled those and rescheduled them and then was able to open at the Carlisle. Yeah, it's expensive to do your own show. It's a lot of pressure, and you've got to really crave it. And I actually don't crave attention like that. Like, I crave being in sitcoms, and I crave doing, you know, dramedy and, you know, shows like Suddenly Susan or Lipstick Jungle or the one I'm starting in September. Like. Like, I. That is, you know, when I was doing Mother of the Bride, which is the latest Netflix movie. Like, I love that kind of stuff. It's sort of. It's just entertainment. It's not heavy. But being on stage, just talking about myself and singing, not in a character, was just too hard. Just, I. I've seen people and they come to life, and I know how to turn it on. And, you know, jazz hands my way through it, but I'm so relieved when it's over. And, like, I love recording in the recording studio. Love that. And, I mean, if I could get a good, tight show and travel and not have to only talk about depression, like, I probably would enjoy it, you know? The interesting thing was, though, I went to Indianapolis after, and I was able to make fun of the whole story about what happened with my seizure. And I cut out two songs that I never really sang that well, to be honest. And nobody. One was a Dolly Parton song. Nobody wants to hear me sing a Dolly Parton song. Like, you want Dolly Parton to sing it, you know? Or Miley Cyrus. Or Miley Cyrus. Exactly. Like, I'm not. And there's nothing I could have done with it that would have been impressive at all, if you think about it. But there was this running theme as to. I wanted to be doll. I wanted to sing country music when I was little, and I switched it out to Delta dawn, which sits in a much better place than my voice. And I thought, oh, that's interesting. If you can find a way to make this show have characters in them that you then can sing the songs you wanna sing, that do sound good on your voice that you don't feel like you're being compared. Like pick obscure songs. No one's gonna know. And they're not comparing you to the people who really do this for a living, you know.
- [48:15]
Monica Lewinsky
So can you tell us what you're doing in September?
- [48:18]
Brooke Shields
Oh, yeah. It's called Ally and Andy. It's a mystery show much like Matlock or A Murder She Wrote. And it plays with this sort of generation difference between my character and a young and up and coming podcaster of mysteries. And I'm a mystery writer and you know that they're in a small town and it's amazing how many murders there are in a small town that we have to solve. So it's that very light. They kind of call them blue sky mysteries because they're not overly gory or.
- [48:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah. I could watch then.
- [49:00]
Brooke Shields
Yeah.
- [49:01]
Monica Lewinsky
I can't do gore.
- [49:02]
Brooke Shields
I can't do gore. Although I just started watching the pit and I close my eyes when it's the gory part, but there's not too much of it. It's such a good show. But no, I like the resident. Residents. Not the resident. The residents.
- [49:18]
Monica Lewinsky
The residents.
- [49:18]
Brooke Shields
Right. Shondaland. That's the kind of humor.
- [49:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [49:23]
Brooke Shields
It is with the murder and have you.
- [49:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Forgive me for not knowing, but have you ever. Have you written a film or TV show? Like, do you.
- [49:32]
Brooke Shields
No. I think that if a show like this were to. It's only six episodes. I think if I were to get into another either sitcom or show, I think I would sooner direct.
- [49:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [49:48]
Brooke Shields
I'm much more of that person than I am especially a writer of original thought, you know, once upon a time, that kind of thing. Like, I'm good at writing stuff that happened, but I don't. Like my husband comes up with scenarios for shows like, I don't have that gene.
- [50:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Have you guys worked together? Have you.
- [50:09]
Brooke Shields
We worked together in the way beginning. And it's so funny because. And we've worked subsequently in little ways. But he. I would love to be directed by him and say his words because I think his words are really funny. And you wouldn't know that we were even together. Like people are like, we were worried that, you know, because you guys were in a relationship that it was going to be, you know, that there was going to be conflict or something. And I just put on that different hat and I become the very. I just become the actress. And, you know, it's interesting. I didn't know that that would be like that I even worried about It. So we have no trouble. No fights. Not. That's great. About.
- [51:00]
Monica Lewinsky
In that Lane. In that lane. It's interesting because. Do you feel like there's this. I'm thinking about. I think you said somewhere around. I think it was with Blue Lagoon maybe, or Endless Love of sort of these moments of kind of dissociating. Right. So, like, that separation. But this is a different kind of separation. This feels like a more professional something you're choosing consciously rather than your body and mind reacting.
- [51:32]
Brooke Shields
Because when I was younger, I needed to disassociate because it was not my. It wasn't my life, and it was. I didn't want it to take over. Whereas with this. I love being an actress who gets directed, you know, who gets guided. And I respect that relationship so much that it. I don't feel there's nothing that I need to protect in myself the way I used to as a child.
- [52:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Is there? Is there? I mean, we all. Right, we all have moments, everybody. Whether you've, you know, been in a global scandal or been the youngest movie star, whatever the things are, like, you think about, okay, what are those sliding doors? Or what might my life have looked like differently? Do you like. What does that look like for you when you think about that?
- [52:25]
Brooke Shields
I do think about that. Well, I used to think about it a lot because I coveted what I thought was more credible within my art, my career, my. Like, I wanted an Academy Award. I wanted to be one of those actresses that you see up there on the show picking up her little gold man and saying it. From the time I was. I mean, I must have been when my mother first got a plane ticket to California and we got to watch the Academy Awards, but we were, like, in the nosebleeds. Like, you couldn't see anybody on stage. They were teeny. So I grew up. And then after, like, I don't know what movie I think it was Endless Love or something, my star kind of started to dull a bit. You know, I was no longer the young thing. Well, I wasn't, like. I wasn't the young sexualized thing. Right. I was so. And there was another crop of kids that came up, and, you know, everybody was like, oh, you're gonna get the Academy Award for Pretty Baby. Just like, you know, what's her name?
- [53:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Jodie Foster.
- [53:36]
Brooke Shields
Jodie Foster for Taxi. No, no. Tatum o' Neal.
- [53:40]
Monica Lewinsky
Right?
- [53:41]
Brooke Shields
Oh, Jodie. Yeah. And so. And I love Jodie Foster. I mean, just. I've always loved her. And. But the comparison was. Oh, Tatum was nine or something. Like that. And so I was under the impression. So when it didn't happen and when roles started sort of drying up and the quality of directors I was working with kind of was shifting, I thought it was purely my talent. And so I got super, super insecure about not being talented enough. And then still, I was still so famous and still talked about as pretty. So now I had fame and something that was still deemed valuable outside but not working. And it just like. And then the reaction to that was, well, we still have to make money. So make a doll about you, you know, go into the celebrity part and go do, you know, a Nescafe commercial in Japan and, you know, and do all these things that were just like. Like just not creative or good or quality or anything. They were money and we needed money. So there was that era, and it took me so long to not be. Feel shame about that. And yet if I hadn't been designated such a huge name, public figure, I don't think I'd have the longevity that I have and the opportunities that I have now. You know, that I can. If I think about myself in third person, which I don't do a lot, but. Yeah, exactly. But I can greenlight a certain TV show or I can get into a room and, you know, for a congressperson or lobbyist or whatever, like in that room and get them to listen to me. I can. There is some. I've found a way. And I think if I had just been the type of actress that I coveted and wanted to be seen as, and then I got older without having the accompaniment of those other elements, I don't know if I would have had a career that lasted this long. I definitely wouldn't have been able to afford the things that I can. Like, I can live in a nice house and, you know, and vacations and stuff like that. So if I. If I hadn't gone down that trajectory, I might have just done great work and then aged out.
- [56:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's really interesting. What I've never thought about before that's really interesting to me right now. Is that what you're talking about when you were after Endless Love? Endless Love, the sequel, yeah. Was sort of an invisibility in the career at this young age. And then sort of that, like, it's so interesting and full circle to me that you're taking that on in the book you just wrote. It's invisibility at a different time in your life for different reasons. There's things. There's something interesting and sticky to me.
- [57:10]
Brooke Shields
There's I never thought of it that way, but that's very true. And there was this invisibility in the things that I put value on. But then the pressure of being so recognizable for being recognizable, like, for stuff that was so far in my past that I was like, I'm not 11 anymore. I'm not 15 anymore. Like, I. It. You know, and you just. It's so hard to reconcile it, you know, I mean, that's why I. I mean, I attribute a lot to theater because, you know, they took me in and on, and I was stunt casting, and that was the first time it had ever really been done. Put someone in.
- [57:55]
Monica Lewinsky
I don't know what that is. I'm sorry.
- [57:56]
Brooke Shields
Put someone in a show. That headliner's leaving. Right. Rosie o' Donnell was leaving. And get a famous person in there who's not known for being on Broadway, but who can sell tickets. And now that's all you see. And I mean, that's it. Like, you can't. If you're. I mean, isn't one of the Jonas Brothers, I think, is doing a great. A great piece. And, like, you wouldn't. You didn't see musical. Known musical people or known actresses or even forget models, but that. So that was the first time. And it was the first time that I realized I was like, oh, the Brooke Shields piece of this. Those two words together. That's why they've called you now. Then I had to work my ass off to learn how to do all that and align myself with the best dancers and the best singers and just morph into that and work really hard. But I thought, God, there is value in that. And you've been fighting it for your whole life because you think there's no validity in your talent because you're famous. And then friends asked me. They were doing a whole super bowl episode and they had all famous actresses in it. Like, it was like Julie Roberts. And it just. There were a lot of different people who were in it, and I was among them. And then I got my own television show based from that one episode. Wow.
- [59:36]
Monica Lewinsky
And suddenly Susan, right?
- [59:37]
Brooke Shields
Yep.
- [59:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Is that okay?
- [59:38]
Brooke Shields
Yeah. And that was, you know, that was my Lana Turner moment. But it was because the ratings were good and I contributed to the ratings. Right? So then I started thinking, okay, how do I navigate this? Still make money, but then somehow keep a show going or keep it, you know, get good ratings? Because when I do a show, they have me do a gazillion press interviews.
- [60:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [60:07]
Brooke Shields
Right. Now, someone who's unknown, it comes in a show they probably do a press interview with the company, but if you're a well known person, they trot you out like you can imagine. And, but, but then, but I'm the one that gets the opportunity to do said show. So it's. I've learned to not hate it or resent it. I've learned to sort of lean into it and see how I can not lose, how I can use it to my advantage. And so whether it's doing a straight play or, you know, going out and pitching a show and you know, kind of harnessing that in this era of my life, I don't know if I would have had the ability to. If my life had gone the way I had wanted it to go. So.
- [60:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Interesting. Yeah. The last question I ask everybody is what is something that you're wanting to reclaim right now? And the answer could be anything. A part of your identity, an emotion, a place, a thing.
- [61:12]
Brooke Shields
I want to reclaim my peace of mind that in all the noise and in everything, I lost a little bit about of my, like. It's okay, it's okay. You know what? You're fine. You're a good person. You have good people in your life. Don't be so hard on yourself. Don't be so hard. And I. When I was much younger, I had this buoyancy to me and there was a chunk of time that I, I got really, really serious and I needed to be because things were not great. Things were happening that were sad and, and health wise and parents and loss and like a bunch of stuff. And I. My light kind of got a little dimmed because I got a bit beaten down. And then I was still famous. So then I was angry about being famous because I didn't have any freedom. So there was this like 10, 15 years of just angst. And I'm watching myself wanting to. I'm getting bits of it back and it feels so good that it's like I feel like the Macy's day parade balloons when they're being like blown up and they're just gonna soar over their life and be like, ah, it's okay. You did well. Just love. Have that peace of mind to float. Yeah. Kind of to float. Float and feel. Feel full and feel light, you know?
- [62:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. That's really beautiful. That's really beautiful. Yeah. Oh, Brooke, thank you so much for this time.
- [62:53]
Brooke Shields
Thank you so much.
- [62:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez, our story producer is Elna Baker, and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake, and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.