Charlie Mackesy

Summary

Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Episode: Charlie Mackesy
Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Charlie Mackesy

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Episode Overview

In this heartfelt, deeply engaging conversation, Monica Lewinsky sits down with Charlie Mackesy—artist, author of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse, and its sequel, Always Remember. They discuss themes of vulnerability, grief, creativity, kindness, and what it means to reclaim agency in our lives. Both Lewinsky and Mackesy draw from their personal journeys to explore the messy, beautiful process of healing and human connection, connecting their own experiences with the transformative power of art, storytelling, and bravery.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening & Setting the Tone

• Monica and Charlie joke about sleepless nights and quirky travel experiences, bringing a tone of warmth, candor, and self-deprecating humor to the episode.
• They reflect on a recent book event, moved by the range of people—children to elders—whose lives have been touched by Charlie’s work.
  • “It's pretty amazing to see...I think from 6 to probably 85.” — Monica (05:34)

2. Impact and Reception of Charlie’s Work

• Monica highlights the extraordinary success of The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse, including 242 consecutive weeks on the NYT bestseller list (07:02), and its diverse readers.
• Charlie is moved by the stories fans share, especially how his work has found its way into therapy, education, and even pandemic windows.
  • “I kind of feel, because I haven't really been here very much, that I don't know that history with them. So I was welling up so much last night…” — Charlie (08:02)

3. Holding Emotional Space for Readers

• Both discuss the emotional weight of being a “holder” for others’ stories—especially stories of loss, shame, and survival.
  • Monica, referencing her psychology background:
    “So much of what you're doing with your work is healing people and so you're holding space for them...but it is...a lot. Collective energy is a lot.” (09:48)
  • Charlie admits he struggles with boundaries:
    “You take it away with me. That can kind of accumulate in you.” (09:30)
• They discuss tools to process trauma, like EMDR therapy, with Monica advocating for its accessibility, especially for the care professions and military (13:00–14:43).

4. Vulnerability, Gender, and Courage

• Charlie reflects on how his work has resonated especially in traditionally stoic environments (like the military), touching on the importance of normalizing emotional bravery in men.
  • “To work your way into gentleness, which is a strength. Work your way into vulnerability, which is brave.” — Charlie (16:14)
• Discusses courage as “to dare to tell the truth of who you are with your whole heart.” (17:19)

5. Childhood, Schooling, and Creativity

• Charlie shares the pain and survival strategies from his childhood, particularly attending boarding school at age 7 (19:00).
• Both lament the Western focus on achievement over character, questioning why kindness and empathy aren’t more valued (21:10).
• Charlie credits art for being an emotional sanctuary. He advocates for creative play and breaking out of rigid boundaries—both in coloring and in life (22:32–27:10)
  • “The tragedy is not that you stop making good drawings. The tragedy is you've lost a good process.” — Charlie (25:23)
• Encourages adults to reclaim childlike creativity for healing.

6. Navigating Grief and Loss

• Discussion turns to personal loss—Charlie's mother, friends, and his beloved dog Barney (45:41–50:05).
  • “Grief is grief, and we’re not very good, I think, at navigating or even recognizing it.” — Charlie (46:03)
  • They reflect on the unique chasms created by each loss, including loss of imagined futures (50:30–50:43).
• Charlie talks about how these losses shaped his new book, Always Remember (48:34).

7. On the Purpose of Storms and Suffering

• They discuss the metaphor of the storm—both as a character in Charlie’s new book and through a Haruki Murakami quote about emergence and change (41:32–44:17).
  • Charlie’s take:
    “I don’t think storms have purpose...But in the end, that suffering helps us grow.” (42:17, 42:26)
• Storms as something that happen, not with intention, but from which active choices can lead to growth and empathy.

8. The Power of Agency and Reclaiming One’s Narrative

• Both Monica and Charlie emphasize reclaiming agency, making choices that fill rather than drain, and recognizing where power has been unconsciously given away (66:02–69:39).
  • “Getting some agency back to really value my own choices...Working out what is a drain and what is a tap.” — Charlie (66:02)
  • Charlie’s therapist’s wisdom:
    “At what point was it, do you think, that you chose to give them power?...Can I suggest to you that you choose to take it back?” (68:11–68:56)

9. Behind the Animated Film: Stories of Instinct and Casting

• Charlie shares the serendipitous, heartfelt story of casting for the Oscar-winning animated film and the instinctual, transformative performance of voice actor Jude Hollander (56:14–61:43).
  • “I said, ‘What do you feel like, we’re trying to make this little film and I don’t know how you feel about being a horse.’ [Gabriel Byrne:] ‘Charlie, I am the horse.’” (58:26)
  • Importance of leaving room for creative intuition, as Jude’s line reading revealed a new nuance:
    “He wasn’t comparing or putting himself above the other horses. The emphasis on love, not a comparison.” — Charlie (61:43)

10. Reminders of Worth and the Role of Friendship

• Both reflect on how affirmations from loved ones anchor identity, especially in times of public shaming or adversity (62:53–64:55).
  • “I love when people remind you who you are and your value and your worth, because it can go. It can just go through your feet.” — Charlie (63:26)
  • Monica recalls her family’s mantras of love during her time of global scrutiny.

11. Final Reflections: Reclaiming, Self-Gentleness, and Change

• Monica asks Charlie what he is currently reclaiming (65:41–69:39).
  • Charlie:
    “Getting some agency back to really value my own choices...There will always be things that empty you...but to remember that you must make choices that are also good for you, that fill you, that give you back.” (66:02)
• Emphasis on self-kindness and letting self-love spill over to others (70:01).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Bravery and Vulnerability:
  “Courage is to dare to tell the truth of who you are with your whole heart.” — Charlie Mackesy (17:19)

• On Collective Grief and Care:
  “Empathy and kindness is such a crucial part of being human. But as you say, it’s also very important to learn how to...not carry other people’s [pain].” — Charlie Mackesy (11:16)

• On Permission to Be Kind:
  “Do you realize that your book gave them permission to be kind? That it was...talking about how they felt was brave.” — Neighbor, as told by Charlie (54:35)

• On Processing Grief:
  “You have to be kind to allow it and let it move through you and come out of you...like a glacier that tears you from within and moves and it can take a long time.” — Charlie Mackesy (46:03)

• On Self-Agency:
  “At what point do you think that you chose to give them power?... Can I suggest to you that you choose to take it back?” — Charlie’s therapist (68:29–68:56)

• On Creative Process:
  “The tragedy is not that you stop making good drawings. The tragedy is you’ve lost a good process. So it’s not about how it finishes, it’s how it feels when you make it...” — Charlie Mackesy (25:23)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Impact and Reader Stories: 07:02–08:21
• Emotional Labor of Holding Stories: 09:17–11:16
• Therapy & Processing Trauma: 13:00–14:43
• Courage, Vulnerability, and Gender: 16:14–18:11
• Art as Sanctuary, Coloring Outside the Lines: 22:32–27:10
• Grief, Loss, and Healing: 45:41–50:05
• Storms and Suffering: 41:32–44:17
• Reclaiming Agency: 66:02–69:39
• The Animated Film: Casting and Intuition: 56:14–61:59
• Reminders of Worth and Identity: 62:53–64:55
• Closing Reflections: 65:41–70:19

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Takeaways

This episode offers a rare, genuine glimpse into two people who have each navigated the weight of public scrutiny and personal loss, and who now offer others tools for healing, agency, and reclaiming the lost or hidden parts of themselves. With stories, vulnerability, and wisdom, Monica Lewinsky and Charlie Mackesy remind listeners that gentleness, bravery, and creativity are not just traits for childhood, but for all of us, always.

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Listener Reflection:
If you ever lost your creative spark, felt consumed by collective emotional heaviness, or wondered how to carry your own “storms,” this conversation offers not just solace but practical encouragement:

Try coloring outside the lines, reclaiming your choices, and being as gentle with yourself as you are with others.

Transcript

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I don't think we ever choose to suffer. We don't go bring it on. But in the end, that suffering helps us grow. So, for instance, the boy, as an example, always wants to be brave. And he says, I don't feel very brave. And then the horse says, well, that was a brave thing to say. But the point is. But he. He hits a storm and goes through it and learns just because he has to, how to be courageous and chooses life. He chooses to love. He chooses to hold on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Zoe. This thing weighs a ton. Drewski, lift with your legs, man.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Santa.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Santa, did you get my letter? He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Of course he did. Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.

[Charlie Mackesy]

He handles the nice list. And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies, right, Mrs. Claus?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister. And AT T Mobile, there's no trade in needed when you switch. So you you can keep your old.

[Charlie Mackesy]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

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[Charlie Mackesy]

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[Monica Lewinsky]

$100 plus a month plan with auto.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Pay plus taxes and fees required. Check out 15 minutes or less per line. Visit t mobile.com.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Walden University. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working adults like you get the knowledge and skills to build the future you want and make a difference where it matters most. If you've been waiting for the right moment, well, this is it. Head to waldenu. Edu and take that first step. Reclaiming is brought to you by audible. You've probably heard me rave about Audible before, but with the holiday season approaching, I have to share how it's becoming my favorite favorite Festive companion. So picture this. You're wrapping gifts, baking cookies. In my case, trying not to burn them, or untangling those stubborn lights. Now imagine a little more magic in the moment. That's exactly what audible is for me. Just yesterday, I was decorating my home, which usually feels like it takes forever. But I was so captivated by this great holiday audiobook that I found myself looking to do more rather than just the minimum. And here's the best gift of all. As a member, you get access to thousands of included titles. We're talking about everything from classic holiday tales to cozy winter mysteries. It's like having a whole library of holiday entertainment right in your pocket. Making every seasonal task from addressing cards to prepping holiday meals. Something to actually look forward to. Sign up for a free 30 day trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com reclaiming that's audible.com reclaiming. All right, since you're my guest and you are already being bossy telling me I had to ask you that. The first question had to be, hey, Charlie, how was your night?

[Charlie Mackesy]

How can I say? Bossy is one of my least favorite things. Me being bossy kills me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

How was your night?

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, I'm struggling to A, fun the words because I'm. I slept for an hour. And B, because I feel a bit confused by it, at how to describe it. But I, I. There was a bedside lamp that looked like something in an interrogation. You go. And it wouldn't switch off.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And I was wandering around the room bashing it, trying to find a switch. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I've had that before. And it's just. And, and it feels like, okay, this is a switch that should work for it. And it doesn't.

[Charlie Mackesy]

No.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And you didn't call down.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I never found it. No. Because I was. It's one of those hotels which is a, very cool. And I'm not very cool.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Me either.

[Charlie Mackesy]

No. And it's also so enormous that I don't even, you know, know how they'd find my room. So I didn't want to trouble them. So I put a pillow over my head and. And then I couldn't breathe. And I put a towel on my head and got asphyxiated. And then I thought, should I just sleep in the bathroom? No. Because it's so small, like. No. So I just basically watched things, films or whatever I could find and then. And then kept thinking about last night, which is very moving. But all these people telling their stories and, and some of them are running through my head right At Barnes and Noble.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You did a. We did a Q and A. Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You were brilliant.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You interviewed me, but we did a Q and A. And you did a signing.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Signing after.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, Right. Which was very generous because they said it could only be one book. And then you wrote on the screen.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Have as many as you want. But even when I said that, the people, they'd hidden them under the chair, so they had a book and they said, can I give you it?

[Monica Lewinsky]

It was pretty amazing to see. I mean, there were. There were two young girls who were maybe five, five, six. Exactly. Who were there. So, I mean, just to see one have their mole. Stuffed animal. Right. But just to see. Oh, you did.

[Charlie Mackesy]

She came up after the signing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So, yeah. Just to see the kind of range of. I mean, I think from 6 to probably 85. Like 80, 85. So. Welcome to reclaiming Charlie.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Thanks for having me, Monica.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I really. I've been so looking forward to this because. Just getting to catch up, even though it's with microphones in a studio and because you truly are the gentlest soul that I know.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Than sweetest and gentlest. Sleepiest, sleepiest. Well, you've been traveling for a month now, right, for your new book, Always Remember.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yes. It's been a month. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Now, is it. Are you considering it a sequel to the Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse, or.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I don't even know. I think that's up to other people, how they see it. I mean, it is the same characters, and I guess they're on the same trajectory of, you know, looking for things.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So, yeah, maybe it is a sequel.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But I don't think you need to have read the first one to read the second. So I don't know whether that sequel. Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, that's interesting. That's a good point. It's funny. I'm going to toot your horn for a second. Not sexually.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Sorry, I've never heard that phrase.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But I'm going to read it because I did not know this until last night when we did the Q and A that your first book. Okay. Published in 2019, that part I knew, holds the record for the most consecutive weeks on the Sunday Times bestseller list in the UK and that it was on the New York Times bestseller list for 242 fucking weeks.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I didn't know that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That is bonkers.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, they're not things I really focus on.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But it is. It is. That's quite a shock. I didn't know that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that is. That's extraordinary. Over four Years.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that's. That is.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, thank you, America. I mean, you know. Yeah. What a lovely thing. You know, when I meet these people, the signings in Boston and D.C. and here that, you know, they talk to me about the history they've had with the book, or they use it with a lot of therapists or the kids and schools or nurses, doctors. Also, you know, they cut pages out and put them on the walls in the pandemic. And I kind of feel, because I haven't really been here very much, that I don't know that history.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

With them. So I was welling up so much last night and in Boston when people told me, you know, how it had woven its way through their lives, you know, like, you know, really moves me to hear that. And then you give me those stats, I think, wow, this is. Yeah, it's over here, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Well, I remember, you know, even though it. Once we met, it felt like we'd known each other for forever. Yeah, I. I remember. But we were in our mutual friend Emma Freud's.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Emma's kitchen.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Brilliant, beautiful, amazing, Emma Freud's kitchen. Well, I had heard of you from mutual friends. I knew the book, but we hadn't met. And I remember just, like, all my chakras opened and I felt totally safe. Like there was just a moment of where it felt really marked for me. And you had just finished, I think, like, a school had reached out to you.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, that's right. I've been in a school. Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

A school had reached out because one of the young kids was boys had died by suicide, and they were looking to your book for comfort, and you had gotten on a zoom with them. So I saw firsthand how much you take on when you're connecting with people.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah. I don't know if that's a good thing. I mean, you're right. I do, but I get so many people tell me, oh, be careful, and, you know, have boundaries. I've told you that I'm not very good with. With that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, I just.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah. You know, when someone tells me something, I enter into that experience with them, and then you take it away with me. That can kind of accumulate in you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I get that. It's. I mean, I think there's. It's. I remember my background was in psychology, and I had thought about being a psychologist for five seconds.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And then you'd be good, though.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, thanks. The thing that I just could never get over is I thought I would never be able to leave my work at work. But people who are therapists, some of whom have treated me, have told me that you learn that. And I think there's so much of what you're doing with your work is healing people and so you're holding space for them and when people are coming and you're connecting with them and it's a beautiful thing to do, but it is. And I've experienced that in different ways. People sharing, you know, the shame that not wanting to be here anymore but getting up the next day anyway and soldiering on. But you have to try to figure out a way, way to both take it in and hold it, but then release it, which, which can be hard because it's, it's a lot. Collective energy is a lot.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It is a lot. Yeah. I mean, there are a few people last night were telling me things that, you know, that they, they were right on the edge of that. And, you know, you, I think it's very important them, for them to say so, to have a safe place where they can tell the truth. And so I'm, I, I, it's a privilege to hear. It's like them giving you a piece of gold, but in the same breath you have to somehow, you know, like all the therapists I know are in therapy.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

They get a place to put it. Right. I, I, I don't, maybe this is, this is, maybe this is a wake up call that I should be, you know, processing it regularly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So it doesn't build up in me and I start weeping walking down the road for no reason. Because that has happened quite a lot just from emails, you know. So I think empathy and kindness is such a crucial part of being human. But as you say, it's also very important to learn how to, yeah. To, to not carry other people's, particularly when there's lots of it sort of carrying a friend's pain or, But I think when you and I, this, you know, like I was talking, I've met a lot of people who are nurses and doctors in America in the last few signings. And you know, I, I often, I often ask them, you know, at the end of the day, what do you do with all of this? Where do you take this? You see, you're, you're an intensive care unit nurse. You see death every day and then you just go home at night. What, just cook some spaghetti and watch the telly? Is that what you do? Like, where do you take this? Yeah. And so I think we're all, you know, on this journey of working out what to do with the Stuff that's within side us. And I think they carry a lot.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I wanted to start a charity which was basically called. I didn't know what it was going to be called. It would be a place where, you know, people in, in the care industry could take their. That the internalized woes of others.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I love that.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, why not. Why aren't they. Why should they be carrying all this?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's interesting. I mean, I feel that way. Have you ever done emdr?

[Charlie Mackesy]

No, but. No, a good friend of mine's a doc, said you should do that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, I've done it. Yeah, I have. And. Well, I've done it in sort of two different ways. I did a very intense sort of group of sessions when I just came out of graduate school. Yeah. Because when I was in graduate school, I kept. I found that the more stressed I was, the more I kept thinking back to like, just bad experiences. And then I was getting to a point where I was thinking about them every three days.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I just thought, I can't get a job somewhere and have this.

[Charlie Mackesy]

What's going on?

[Monica Lewinsky]

And I stopped doing the EMDR because I didn't realize at the time or just understand I was having really intrusive dreams. And so I now understand it was just peeling back some of the trauma. You then see the other trauma that was hidden.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, it's another level.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And I wasn't ready to look at that. But my current therapist, who's a trauma psychiatrist, she uses EMDR very organically, like just in the session, if it comes up.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And so when you say emdr, you mean following the moving.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, it can be finger, a light, light thingy. You can do it with sound. There's also tapping thing. But I think where I was going is I've just always. I don't understand why we don't have kind of like EMDR units.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Right, right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, but especially for people in the military, you know, like at the end of the day, sort of. How do you. We people would come back with a lot less. Lot less ptsd, I think if we were helping people process their trauma in real time. Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It's. The military fascinates me because they were the first people, a group of people that reached out to me when I started posting the drawings. Yeah. I get so many emails from Canadian military, Australian military, the UK Cavalry, or whoever they were, and said this getting, asking if they could use the first drawing I did, which is, what's the bravest thing you've ever Said ask the boy. Help, said the horse. And that. I didn't. They were the last people I would have suspected, but. And they were. And I was like, yeah, what a privilege. Yeah, use it, use it, use it. You know. Yeah, but that was a tiny little drawing. And what you're talking about is an ongoing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, but it is. And it's one of the things, because I've been present, I think, when I went to see the. The screening for. Because you did an animated short and won the Oscar for the boy, the mole, the fox, and the horse that we were standing around after. And this man came up to you, like, practically with tears in his eyes, talking about how your book and work and this film had helped him reclaim his softness and express it with his family. I mean, you've probably had eight bajillion experiences of that. So I think there. There is something really special about what you've created because it has touched old, young men, women, everything. Everything. Everybody, you know, probably even animals connect to it in a way that they can't.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Well, apparently, I do get videos. People who. Dogs and cats watch the film. Obviously, they don't understand the words, but they have so many images right against the screen, watching. I think that, you know, for me, I think being human is really difficult, and becoming human is a journey. And what does it really look like? Or it's all kinds of things. But I think for men, you know, having. Being raised in the west, particularly, where, you know, there's a certain paradigm, a certain way of being that you're expected to be, to sort of try and, you know, see that, actually. Or work away into gentleness, which is a strength. Work your way into vulnerability, which is brave. Work your way into daring to speak the truth. I remember reading somewhere that one of the original meanings of courage. And I might be wrong, but who knows? But it was something like to dare to tell the truth of who you are with your whole heart. Oh, wow. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wait, say that again.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Well, it's an old English meaning. I think it's connected with courage, which is. Courage is to dare to tell the truth of who you are with your whole heart. Wow. But part of that journey is really discovering who you are anyway.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Or you feel you are, but maybe that's a continuing journey. But just to dare, to start, particularly how you feel. And I. There's. There's often a huge kind of gap, if you like, between what we feel and what we put out.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And that's the area that interests me, is the hidden area of your true Self and what you're willing or unwilling to share. And I think the more you can share a bit with the right people, the closer you are to becoming human. And if you can, if you can be gentle with yourself in that journey, you will, you will be gentler with other people. I think it begins there.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. With kindness, with bravery, with courage. Are those things that you, you always felt that way or did you arrive at. At that?

[Charlie Mackesy]

It's a really good question. I think maybe a bit of both. But I think I've always really admired people in my life who've been soft or have listened or been kind or who have empathized or. I've always, even when I was little, I remember being moved by people like that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, well, and you were, you were raised in Northumberland. Yes, that. Okay. Yeah. And I know you've talked a bit publicly and we've talked privately, which get into all the details of, but about having gone to boarding school really young. Yeah, like seven, right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Seven years old.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's fucking crazy to me. First of all, just the idea of little seven year old Charlie feels pretty adorable. But also a seven year. I mean my niece is seven and.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Is she.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. And the idea of sort of, you know, her leaving to go away to school feels, you know, feels impossible, you know, so it just, it was so young. And I know that boarding school was hard and painful for you.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, you know, what's interesting is my parents are wonderful, sadly, were. They're not around anymore. But they, you know, they, they were doing the kind of thing they thought was available. It was just, I suppose when you're that little and then you're slightly fending for yourself in an environment which is pretty hostile that you. I think what happened, what happens in life, I think is we can develop survival instincts or coping mechanisms or defenses that we put in place to keep alive or keep functioning that no longer serve you after a certain amount of time. And you have to sort of recognize them, which took me a long time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And so I think, for me, I think that the journey into that has been interesting and also to recognize that, you know, you know, I think it was very competitive environment and none of us, I think if we all sat down now, we would say we were all competing against each other and none of us felt that we were enough. You know, you have to prove your worth constantly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And like how we do the education system, I think in the west is, you know, you have, we compete. You have lists of who came first, who came second, you know, and so on. And. And at the end of your life, think, what was that all about?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right, Exactly.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, or for instance, you know, school leavers, magazines, which always fascinate me because they would always choose 10 levers and they would summarize the degree of the success or where they went to university.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Did they go to Coxford or Yale or wherever it is, whatever country. Aren't you impressive? And didn't we do well, if he's now a lawyer, earning with a big house in Chelsea, like, okay, I mean, on one level, well done. But why don't we talk about how kind they are?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Or are they gentle?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Are they. Are they kind to people who can't be kind back? Are they, you know, how do they treat a waiter? How do you know? All this stuff, I think, is key to being human and becoming the journey. Becoming human, I think, ultimately is not about, you know, your wealth or your status. It's much, much deeper than that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And on a gravestone, you don't go, well, he had a big wage. Oh, good for you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think we. We. I think when you're calling leavers, we call alumni here.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Alumni.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what you're saying makes sense, is that we. We do. I saw a great thing on Instagram the other day, and it was something like, why do people worry so much about how they look on the outside and not their character, how their character looks on the inside, you know, some version of that, which I thought was really interesting. And that's so much at the heart of, I think, what. What you put into the world. Were you drawing, like, were you drawing in boarding school? So were you drawing at that young age?

[Charlie Mackesy]

That's a really interesting. I was. And I found making art to be a real sanctuary, like self soothing. Yeah. And I could disappear into other worlds, you know, and. Or do drawings of the teachers. You know, I find making drawings also, like, when I'm nervous, I'll draw. Not now, but, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Are you nervous now?

[Charlie Mackesy]

No.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay, good.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I was to begin with. Always. I'm.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Me too. I always am.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, it's just you and me.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No one else. Well, I. Do you remember. Do you remember the first. I think it was like the first time we had dinner and they had. They gave us the kids menus to color. And you. You gave me a.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Did they have crayons?

[Monica Lewinsky]

They did. They did. And you. I remember because you were.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Wait, wait a second. Sorry. But why just for children. What's that about?

[Monica Lewinsky]

I know why. I don't know, it's like books.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Why do books suddenly stop having pictures for grown ups?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, okay. So we don't need them anymore.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So when I look at adult books. Grown up ones. You would. I always look for the dark seam in the middle where the photographs. Here I am reaching base camp of Mount Everest.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But that's all. You don't get nice illustrations through. Through the books if you're grown up. It's almost like they're stabilizers for a bicycle. You no longer need them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's so interesting. I've never thought of that.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Why? Grown ups need them. They're great.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, and I think when you and I were doing the scribbles on the, on the, in that restaurant a. It. It takes away some of the pressure of conversation. It's fun. You can be silly. It's like, it reminds me of, you know, when you ask a someone under 6 how they are or, you know, some might go, okay, but I know what I used to do, right? I go, look at that. Oh, I point away from me, there's a badger. Or, look at that house. Or, you know, some way of deflecting attention. And for me, you know, if I can draw like some teachers say to me, what should I worry if half the kids in my class are drawing while I teach them geography? I'm like, no, maybe it helps them to think. You know, maybe it's a way of processing information. Drawing is an act of, I think, analyzing and making sense of where you are and who you are way more than just. That's a pretty picture. And which is why I find it so sad when, like when I do these things at signings and I get people to draw a mole.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, and I ask them, you know, can you. Can any of you draw? And they all go, no. And I go, you can. You just don't draw like anybody else. And I bet you when you were 7 or 8 or 9, someone said, oh, that's not really good. And you're. Yeah, you're right. And so this tragedy is not that you're. You stop making good drawings. The tragedy is you've lost a good process.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So it's not about how it finishes, it's how it feels when you make it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

That matters. And I think what we lose as we grow up, whatever that means, is we lose some of the processes that we think are childlike, but they're not. If they are, they're for everybody because they're important. And so I used to volunteer with people with Alzheimer's. And I used to teach them to draw. And so many of them would say, oh, you know, the two questions they had were, is this wrong? This mark? And I said, well, nothing. No mark you make is wrong, and it never was, so just do it and pretend you're four or five. Where you didn't care. Now you do. And so by the end of those months with them, you know, that you couldn't. They were unstoppable. And the piles of drawings everywhere, and they didn't care because they'd suddenly discovered not how it should look, but the joy of making it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And I think as grownups, we. We. We should go back into that. You know, if you're. If you're listening to this and you used to like drawing when you were 7, but you don't anymore, Get a little pad, small, and get some crayons, and for three minutes a day.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yep.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Scribble, and then chuck it away.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, I started doing that.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Brilliant.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I had started doing that. What was. I mean, it's interesting because you. I don't know if you'll remember this, but you gave me a little bit of a lecture that night when we were. Because. Because I was, like, very meticulous inside the lines. And you said to me, why do you. Why do you feel you have to stay inside the lines? And it was just a really.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Wow. Did I say that?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, you did. You were on fire. On fire that night.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So I think so much of life is. We feel is about drawing, coloring within the lines. But it's just the joy of coloring is what life is rather than doing it right. Just enjoy it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But it was just so interesting to think about. Why does that feel so important to draw within the lines?

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, I mean, in life sometimes is important. We have boundaries and we have rules and things. But I think in the same breath, where there is freedom to choose not to, it's important to try, you know, because those lines are only guidelines.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

We did a. We wrote a very basic script for the book, which is a musical and a little play for schools. Oh. And the point was, listen, this is square one. And you can rewrite it, you can change it, you can write your own songs, but here's what you could do.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But it's not. They're not lines. They're just helpful starters.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And take it where you want.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And what it was, what fascinates me is that, you know, they. That some schools rewrote the whole thing and others kept within the lines. Because they wanted to.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So everything is a choice and there's freedom there. But I. I think with. Well, yeah, anyway, are you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Are you guys going to make a documentary with all that? I don't know, because I. I'd be really interested to see, you know, to sort of see what the derivations that people. That the schools did and the kids. I just think that would be interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, in a lot of signings I get given little books that they've made that are derivations of. Or their own makings of.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, and I know I got some. Someone sent me some images from somewhere in Kenya where a school had created their own characters with their own words. And there was a. There was a cheetah, etc. And a monkey and an elephant. And I think, you know, what a lovely thing that they're reading something, engaging with it and then. And then taking it on for themselves and doing it their own way.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, I think that your work is opening something up in people and you've also created a safe space for them to share that. And I think that is so extraordinary, especially in today's world where it's, you know, you're not safe and it's hard to feel safe.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yes, I think people feel quite safe with animals. They can trust them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I don't.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Okay.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I was scratched by a cat when I was three. Badly. And so I think I've just always sort of been a little hesitant with.

[Charlie Mackesy]

All animals or cats.

[Monica Lewinsky]

All animals, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It's incredible what happens to you when you're tiny, how it affects your whole take on existence.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

So for me, those characters with the boy, the boy trusts them completely. I mean, the fox, you know, is a pretty. It's pretty unpredictable, but certainly the mole and the horse, he has an absolute pure trust for them and can ask them anything without fear of criticism, retribution, mockery. And he can just say, you know, what happens if. And he'll get an honest answer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I was thinking about just with the new book that. I don't know. Do you consider the storm a character almost.

[Charlie Mackesy]

That's a good question. You know, I. I think the storm it is. And the Storm it is an extra, but I think it's more of an experience. But I do think storms have their own nature.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And they. They appear, they exist, live with you, and they. They move and do things and hopefully they go away at some point. But I think the storm when. Because the first book I finished in 2019, so I. But I. You know, I'm like Forrest, Forrest Gump with a pencil. I haven't stopped. I can't stop. So what do you do with all these things? You know, and I, I posted so many drawings of Pandemic and afterwards and about these four characters and the storm, I think for me represents, you know, a time in a life where we can get, have to go through either collective something collectively, which they do, or in isolation, which is what happened to many of us in that time. And I think, you know, when I experience a storm with others, it's very different to how I experience it when I'm in isolation. And I do much better when I'm with others where I can say, ah, this is, or if I'm on my own, I, I, or the worst things in my head happen and I accuse myself of it being my fault or so the book. They enter the storm together and then there's separation. And it's what the boy, how he navigates himself through that time.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. Welcome back to another month of our Reclaiming listening club. Here is our latest selection. It's Queen Charlotte. The tale that transports us to the opulent world of Georgian era London, where love, power and destiny intertwine. This story follows young Charlotte as she navigates her unexpected journey from German princess to Queen of England. When she arrives at the British court to marry King George iii, Charlotte must learn to balance duty with desire while carving out her own place in a world bound by strict social conventions and royal protocol. The narrator's masterful performance also brings these fascinating historical figures to life. I found myself completely immersed in their world during my morning commute. But it wasn't so surprising because I have, after all, been a Bridgerton fan since 2010. To our loyal listeners who've been with us since the beginning, you know the joy of experiencing these incredible stories together. And if you're just joining us now, well welcome. The beauty of audiobooks is their versatility. You can enjoy them anywhere. I enjoy listening to these titles, especially on my beach walks. I think you're going to love Charlotte's remarkable journey and all the delicious drama of the Georgian court. Fall in love with all the amazing stories we've covered. Head to audible.com reclaiming and sign up for a free 30 day trial. That's audible.com reclaiming. Well, and going back to just before the Pandemic. So the first book was published in 2019. And how did that, I mean, did you, you didn't set out to write a book, right?

[Charlie Mackesy]

You Were originally.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, yeah, you were posting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I was. And I. The Instagram was really my way of publishing, you know, and then engaging with a lot of people, and we all talked, you know, it was. You know, I have such a fondness for Instagram because people have been so generous with their thinking in their hearts and emotions with respect to the journey of the book and the film, everything, and I. I'm so grateful for that. But they, you know, when. When I did an exhibition of the drawings in 18, 2018 in a gallery in London, and I just posted it on Instagram. So look, I'm gonna frame a few of these and stick them in, you know, and the galleries I'd been with where I did big paintings, were not that interested in my. My new drawings.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Charlie Mackesy]

They. They just thought it was, you know.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I didn't realize the drawings were vastly different from what you were doing at the time.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, yeah, they were.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay. Interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And words came into it. And so. So I. I went out on a limb and went on my own, thought, well, here I am and here's a boy. More foxhorse. And I frame them up. And I hired this space and. And just. Just wrote a little, did a little drawing and put on Instagram. And. And so please come. Here are the dates and the gallery next door, who's been there, you know, for I don't know how many years. He. I saw him at the end of the week, and he said, we reckon you had 10,000 people in five days. Wow.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah. And I knew there was a lot because I was against the wall and meeting grown men crying and all kinds of things, which I will. I forgotten, but the feeling that I will never forget. I mean, I think we tend to forget a lot of things. I mean, I think we forget most of what we say to each other, but we remember how we feel. And how I felt that night and those ensuing days was just a sense of overwhelming emotion that so many people had connected with these characters. And then in that show, at some point, someone from Penguin was there and they said, do you want to make a book? And I said, I don't. I don't know. Do you think it would. They would make a book? And they said, yeah. So when we came to make it again, when they said we printed 10,000, I said, oh, that was silly.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Why did you do that? You know, because I don't think. Well, I didn't even then still thought, no, we. Who knows what it'll do? But if a few people like it, great. And then I think Very soon after it came out, we were. We were in lockdown, which is a very strange thing because I didn't get to speak to anyone, you know, really. I didn't engage like this for a long time because we couldn't. But I got the emails and the comments and things from people about it and from nurses in. In the middle of COVID who were terrified, to schools that were shut down, and they blew the drawings up and put them on their. The window so if any kid passed by, they could see them. You know, they were on lampposts in la. People, you know, all this stuff was going. And I would. I would see this in messages and emails and. And comments and whatever, but never actually was there to see it because I couldn't. So it's all done in absence of it. So for me now, coming, let's say, to America for the first time, engaging with the book and then the two books is really moving because I'm getting to hear all the history.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Years now. Of history. Of it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And I find that just again, I'm. The last few days have been overwhelming. Last night was overwhelming. Boston was overwhelming. Washington was, too.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And how do you take it in? I mean, how did you process at the time that your drawings were having this kind of impact?

[Charlie Mackesy]

It's a good question. I don't. I don't actually. I don't know. I suppose I was really glad. You know, it's lovely to Feeling that you have some kind of purpose.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, everyone. We need. We need to feel that we have purpose.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It was. Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

An important part of life. So I. I did gain something. And then. Then I think when. When we were in our darkest points, particularly going through that year, you know, people really struggling, and I had messages saying, you know, the book's keeping me alive, or, you know, my kids love the cake and we laugh about it and we're making cake today when we're at school and da. So I think for me, I felt it was an amazing feeling to know that it was part of people's lives and having some visceral. Making changes for people that were for good and that I find that very moving and always will.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's interesting because, I mean, for obviously for very different reasons in different ways, I will have people talking to me that might, you know, TED Talk helped or, you know, something. And it's like there's this one part of me that is so open and so grateful and it's such a privilege. Right. I mean, it's just such a Privilege to help ease other people's suffering.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It really is.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And then there's another part of me that is just can't even take it in.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, it's definitely fucking bonkers.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It is like.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And it. And so I. I struggle with that sometimes.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I agree. There is a part of me. This is going, what?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Like, how am I even here? What am I doing? And I'm just this scruffy person who gets inky hands and.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And draws on their kitchen walls.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, yeah. And still doesn't get the right socks on. And still doesn't really know what he's gonna eat tonight.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Let's see. Do you have. Do you have matching socks?

[Charlie Mackesy]

No fun. If I do, I do. Oh, no missing one. There you go. So, you know, this is the thing. It's a paradox, Right? Right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But, you know, the thing is, Monica, that I. And you and I both know that I don't think either of us are saying, I'm on this side of the river and I'm going to tell you how to get across. We're saying, oh, we're all on this side. How are we do this?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. I know I've had people sort of. Especially people who've. Who've gone through a kind of public shaming, and they'll say, well, how did you reclaim your narrative? As if I could say, well, first I did this and then I did that, then you do that. And it's just. For me, it was such a. Such an evolution and such a spiral of moving forward and moving backwards and down and up and being devastated by the thing not working and going, oh, my God, how am I. What am I going to do now? And then a few years later, looking back, saying, thank fucking God that happened. That was the best thing that happened to me. And so just that awful, painful thing that I didn't think I could get through, you know, ends up being. But I was. I think, with this storm, too, I was thinking about. And now we'll bring in our. Your dear friend, who then became my dear friend, whose name I can still not say. Colm.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, column, column, column. Think of it as Nelson's column. It's an Irish name.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Colm. Okay. Colm.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, listen, he wouldn't care. He's so.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Hi, Colm.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You can call him Benjamin.

[Monica Lewinsky]

He's gonna listen to this. Colm's gonna listen. Colm.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Well, we love column.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Column. I know we love columns, but do you remember when you guys were in LA for the Oscar stuff, right? And we had to. I was in charge of making sure your. You had a shirt to wear and that it was pressed.

[Charlie Mackesy]

That's a job. You think it's hard making podcasts? Try that. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And we had dinner and we were talking about. I wrote it down in case I can't remember it, but we were talking about this. This Haruki Murakami quote that I love. That is about the storm. Hold on, I'm gonna find it. But when you come out of the storm, you won't be the same person who walked in. That's what the storm is all about.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, man. Amazing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And well, we. You. You really didn't like it. You. You sort of were pushing back against that.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I was wrong. He's right.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Charlie Mackesy]

He'll never be the same again.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, what I probably wouldn't have liked.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Is that last bit it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Huh?

[Charlie Mackesy]

Is it as if it had. As if that's purpose?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes, that's what you were saying then.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Okay, then. I agree. I don't think storms have purpose. I don't think they're set up to change you. I think they happen, and by default they change you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I don't think there's a conspiracy of storms to change you. When he said, that's what they're all about. You could say it in a way that goes, that's. That's the best thing about them or that's what they achieve. But I think they're all about. Storms are all about themselves. So storm is a game of monkeys about you. They just happen. And they're narcissistic creatures. I think that's all about them, if that makes sense. But I think you can make the most of them. And I don't think we ever choose to suffer. We don't go, bring it on. But in the end, that suffering helps us grow. So, for instance, the boy, as an example, always wants to be brave. And he says, I don't feel very brave. And then the horse says, well, that was a brave thing to say. But the point is he. But. And if. But he. He hits the storm and goes through it and is learns, just because he has to, how to be courageous and chooses life. He chooses to love. He chooses to hold on and all these things. He. And he's courageous in doing that. And the stor leads him to a place of strength and empathy with the horse. So when he gets to see the horse afterwards, the horse is devastated and says, I thought we lost you. And the boy kisses his nose and it says, it was love that brought me home. And not by the way, but. And also the next line is, boy says, when we're vulnerable with each other, we're strong. Now, the boy wouldn't have said that before the storm.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

He wouldn't have understood that dynamic. But he's learning all the time. And it was. It was the. So when, if you want to say that quote that was Still. Was all about. Yeah. For both. For the boy was awful. But you could say that the result was. Look what it did for him.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. I mean, I think that's. That's the point of the, of the quote too.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yes. I mean, it was just semantics.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, no, no, no, no. Of course. And it was.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But he's right. Of course, that book is great.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You were just contrarian.

[Charlie Mackesy]

No, I just didn't like. I didn't like the idea that it was set up to achieve a thing that we agreed.

[Monica Lewinsky]

But you just said we don't choose suffering. Right. And I think. I'm not sure because I've had experiences that I look back on now, and I think I had a number of unhealthy relationships. Right. That I think I. Some part of me knew that I was gonna suffer, but that suffering was gonna be easier than the suffering of facing what had happened to me and my life.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Right. That's very interesting.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And so I didn't consciously. Right. But I think there's. That it's almost as if, you know, you're in pain and how do. How do you process that pain? And so, because your book didn't exist.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yet, so it's, you know, you're in pain and you need to know how to process. It's such a huge thing. Yeah, Well, I mean, I think we're processing pain on a daily basis in various ways.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. And you had a lot of loss in the last, like, 14, 18 months. Right. Your. Your mom passed and you had been. You and your sister had been caring for her.

[Charlie Mackesy]

For my sister's amazing. I mean, she.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Long time.

[Charlie Mackesy]

My mom lived next door to her.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. But you. You were a good. You were a good son.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, we used to walk at Mum and I used to go on walks every day and. Yeah. And then we were with her. Right. Right at the end. So I think. I think, you know, grief, it varies so much depending on who it was you've lost and how. How they. How you lost them. And regardless of whether they were 95 or 25, I think grief is grief, and we're not very good, I think, at navigating or even recognizing it, you know, so when I Have friends now and I see them behaving oddly or rashly or angrily or, you know, they lost someone a year ago. I go, oh, well, there it is then, you know, to remember what you, why, it could be this, it could be grief that you're, you're shouting at the wind and we can hold it down for years. It can surface anytime. And I liken it slightly to a, a snake, snake bite whose venom is unique to you and has different manifestations on a daily basis. And you have to be kind to allow it and let it move through you and come out of you and like, it's like a glacier that tears you with from within and moves and it can take a long time and oh, it's lost the pain of lost love. You have to sort of allow it to do its thing and, and be kind to yourself and, and I lost Barney. And about losing a dog can, can be, yeah. You know, when people lose pets, you know, how old was Barney? Barney was 19. But people say, often say, are you going to get another one? I'm like, it's not a bicycle.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

This is a living relationship.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

People with creatures form deep, deep relationships with their pets. And people have written to me going, yeah, people don't understand. I lost my cat and I had the cat for 14 years and you know, I don't know what to do with myself. It's such an enormous chasm. And this is grief. And so I think grief is a, an very important conversation we should be having and to recognize it. And it's a physical pain.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Whether it's a human or otherwise.

[Monica Lewinsky]

So did you have the losses before you started working on Always Remember, or did they happen during.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Well, mum died before and then Barney died in the smack bang in the middle of it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But I also, in the last few years, you loved Barney. Yeah, you did.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I did love Barney.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I mean, I mean, Barney was hard not to love. He was a sort of. Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

What kind of dog was he?

[Charlie Mackesy]

Barney was a miniature long haired dachshund with an attitude the size of this building and a love for cake or not cake, but for.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Didn't Barney meet the queen? Didn't you take Barney to meet the queen?

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, yeah. Well, I, I, I had such a codependent relationship with Barney that I couldn't really go anywhere without him. I even took him on TV interviews.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, did you?

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah. And so when I was invited to go to some thing for writers, you know, with, with the royalty, I, I said, oh, I'll have to bring Barney. And they said, oh, well, no, you can't. I said, okay, then that's fine, I'll. Wow, stay at home. And they went, no, no, you can bring Barney's idea. He had a good time there, you know, and they said a little bowl for him. But I mean, Barney for me really was the mole. And he shaped so much of my humorous view on the mole and the ridiculousness of him. But also, you know, I think there's a. There's a comfort you get from a warm, soft creature. At least I did. And many two that the boy finds in the mall, you know, and that's. He meets first. So. Yeah, it was hard. It was hard. I lost a couple of other friends recently.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I'm sorry.

[Charlie Mackesy]

No, but I mean, you know, each one has its own. I think the interesting about grief also is part of you dies with them. So there's a uniqueness to what you and I have, or what we have with any of our friends that is unique to that friendship. You have this. That you have language, aware, being, responding, interacting that you don't have really with anyone else. And that goes.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And that you're grieving that loss.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But I think you can grieve the loss of time, the loss of potential, the loss of.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, you can grieve, sure. The life you imagined you would write there. I mean. Exactly.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And so you're letting go of, expect what you hope for all the time and trying to live in the present and. And work out how to be grateful for where you are right now or not. What it should be is a huge thing. And column is Irish, you know, so. And Colm's daughter Amelia actually is like a five year old angel and he films and she, she knows the language I had with Barney. And I had a particular language that I've lost since he died.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Okay.

[Charlie Mackesy]

That, that I used to say to Colin when he was around when he. We were working together on the first book that he. So when I went to work on the second book column, we would say those words to each other and they were kind of, you're extra, extra, extra special. You're extra special. Look at you. You're extremely. And then elongates. And she now does it age 5 and sends them to me. Ah, Barney, you're extremely special. And. Why am I saying this? Because the loss of. That I regain through someone else. That ridiculous loan.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Foreign. We've all felt stuck at different points in our lives. Have you ever had that feeling though, when you're stuck in a career rut, thinking there's got to be more than this. Well, this is your sign. I want to tell you about Walden University because they've been helping working professionals like you get unstuck for over 50 years. Here's what's so great about Walden. They get it. They understand. You're juggling work, family and life. That's why they've created something called Tempo Learning for select programs. No rigid schedules. No you must log in at exactly 7pm on Thursdays kind of thing. You set the pace that works for your life. 94% of their faculty hold doctoral degrees and bring actual real world experience to the classroom. Not just theory, but practical skills you can use right away in your career. In fact, a good friend of mine from college got her master's degree through Walden and is now an incredible shrink in Portland, Oregon. Take the first step. Visit waldenu. Edu Walden University Set a Course for Change Certified to Operate by Chev. So what made you do another book?

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, that's a really good question. And for me, I feel that, you know, people have said, oh, second album, you know, and I've never seen it as a second album. And I would never have made a book if I didn't a second book if I didn't feel a response from strangers, right? You know, people saying, so a couple of instances. One was a couple of years ago, three years ago maybe, when a guy came over the road to me in the village. I'd never seen him for he's 90 something must have been. And he looked at me and he put his arm, hand on my arm, and I said, hello. And he said, are you that mole man? The mole guy? And I went, yeah, I suppose. That book. I said, yeah. And his eyes welled up and looking at me, and there was a long pause and he said, make another. And then he let go of my arm, turned around and walked away. And I'll. I don't know what his name was or where he's from or anything. And it's. It was. I remember thinking, okay, so that's a good enough reason. And then about three months later, I think my neighbor, who works with, often with kids who have tough backgrounds, and she, she's. She was a pastor in the road, you know. And we stopped and she said, charlie, I've never said this, but I had some lads around the other day and I was working, she teaches them to write. And she said, do you know that your book gave them permission to be kind?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, how interesting. Permission be kind.

[Charlie Mackesy]

That it was. It was, yeah. And then. And Then she said, and also it made them realize that talking about how they felt was brave. And then there was a pause. I was like, wow, that's a lovely thing to say.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And then she said, make another one. And then hurry up, you know, hurry up about it. And then I got an email from someone in New York who works with kids who really, really tough stuff. And again, she said, you realize what they do. You know, we talk about this stuff. They tear the pages out, they cut the characters out, they scribble on them. They're processing their emotions. Wow. With these characters, they're identifying their journey with theirs. Wow. You know, continue the story. And that has currency in persuading me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Way beyond a publisher going, so right. I'm like, why? Give me a reason why and I'll do it. And those people and everyone I've heard of are the reasons why I've done it. So that's the reason.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It was so interesting last night, because at the event for. For the book signing and. And we were talking about the animated film, and you told this amazing story about how you got the actors. So the story about Gabriel Burton. Will you tell that now? Because that had reminded me. And then I'll. And then I'll share my story.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah. I mean, the whole journey of the film was sort of mad. I mean, this whole thing is mad. I. You know, the fact that I managed to make a book and da, da, da. And then he even made a film is kind of crazy. And, you know, the fact that me and Matthew decided we didn't want to sell the rights, that we'd make it ourselves, even though we hadn't got a clue how to make a film. And, you know, then who will play the parts? And I said, well, I've always imagined the boy was Scottish, soft. Like. I think the landscape of Scotland is very wide and you have long Scottish vowels. The boy and. And the horse had to be Southern Irish. I find the Southern Irish people I know so familial, so warm, so affectionate, so easy, so kind. Generally, it's like, ah, Charity, how are you? It's that kind of, ah, go on. But in making the film, I'd imagined. So when the horse just wants your question. The horse we wanted Southern Irish. I was thinking, well, who will play it? And you know, some fine Irish actors, but they're a bit too young. And suddenly I thought, well, you know, Gabriel Byrne is someone I've admired for years, and his voice is fantastic. So I hand wrote him a letter in my inky writing and then let it dry and then fold it and sent it. Managed to find, I think my producer of the film knew where to send it. And I left my phone number at the bottom because I felt that's how you do it. Don't ring my producer, ring me. And like two or three weeks later I was pushing an old bicycle through a field. Barney was in the basket and my phone was ringing pocket. I looked at it and it was an unrecognized number. Very long number. Hello, you know. And the boy said, is that Charlie? I said, yes. He said, it's Gabriel. I said, oh, Gabriel, Gabriel, Hi Gabriel, how are you? And he said, I'm Brandon Brown. Listen, that got you that. I said, okay, that's good. Well, thank you for ringing. And I said. Then I think I said, mentioned the book. I said, do you know about this little book? I did. And he said, yeah, yeah, I have the book. She has the book.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Looking at Barney.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And then I said, well, you know, what do you feel like we're trying to make this little film and I don't know how you feel about being a horse. And there's a pause. He goes, charlie, I am the horse. Just like that. I am the horse. And I lay down in the grass, I had to drop the bike. I said, are you serious? Yeah, yeah. And that was the beginning of my journey with him. And. And then obviously we had Idris Elba.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And Tom Hollander who all these actors were heaven to work with. And I found myself in a little shabby little room in. In Suffolk directing these giants in the middle of COVID right in the COVID And not. And then having to, having to. Sometimes you find yourself in a place which doesn't fit you very well. And they wanted from me direction and I had to deal with my own inadequacy. Fear of trusting my gut and getting my, my critics, the self critical editor away enough so I could say. Could you just say that one more time but a bit more like this? And they were of course, okay. And they did.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And then could you. So just having the confidence that I did not have to believe that what I felt within me was, was important enough to say to get them to be the characters that I wanted them to be. And that was. I found that really hard.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, like with Tom, who. Tom Holland is like this. He's the ultimate. I mean all of them are, but he's such a craft and such an actor and, and you know, they, he, he. Each line he did 40 times.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know Saying, try this, try that, you know, And. And then. And then Jude Hollander, who was, I think 12, 13 at the time, was the boy. And again, you know, over and over again, we tried each line in a different way. And then what interests me about him was that I then said to him, after all the takes, okay, let's go through the whole script. But you do it instinctively.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, interesting.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Let me hear what you would do if I. If I wasn't in the room now that, you know. And of course, it was like he. He colored outside the lines. He just. He was no longer, you know, trying to fit some. My.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And some of the lines of those lines he'd recapped. And the most important one was that when the horse declares that, that he. He can. He can fly. And the boy says, you can fly, he says, yes. But I stopped because it made the other horses jealous. In my head, the answer the boy gives had always been, well, we love you whether you can fly or not. But Jude did this. He said, well, we love you whether you can fly or not. He wasn't comparing or putting himself above the other horses. The emphasis on love, not a comparison. He said, well, we love you. Not, well, we love you. And when Jude said that, I nearly fell off the chair. I went, oh, wow. Yeah, you've just brought something brand, brand new here. He's not in any way, you know, he's just going, we love you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

In the purest possible way, whether you can fly or not. So you don't need to fly. We'll still love you, but you can fly and we'll love you. Your potential is endless, but if you don't meet it, we love you anyway. Yeah, you're free.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And of course, that's when the horse.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. Well, it's just. It's interesting because I. I mean, we. I've seen the film. We've spent so much time together, we've talked about this. And it wasn't until last night that I remembered, you know, that it's so interesting of Gabriel playing the horse, of just this sort of strength and wisdom, because I had. It was like. I think it was around 2000, 2001. I had been at a dinner party, somebody who gotten engaged, and they were having small engagement dinners. And it was maybe a group of 10 or 12. And the spouse of the host clearly was not happy I was there. And so every time we were taking photos, like, if someone pulled me into the photo, he would leave. And Gabriel was at this part. It was first time I'D met him and he took notice of that.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah.

[Monica Lewinsky]

And had said to me, like, had commented on it to me and made me feel better. And I think he might have even said something to the guy. And it was just, you know, to sort of. That was a time period where people saw me in a very different way. A lot of people. And, you know, in his sort of. His willingness to stand up for me and to do it in the moment was just. And so I just. He is the horse, you know, I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I can imagine him doing that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It's just really lovely.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, he's a big soul. I mean, I think what that does is it reminds you. I love when people remind you who you are and your value and your worth, because it can go. It can just go through your feet. Oh.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I mean, that's my friends and my family in 98. I mean, that was so much of.

[Charlie Mackesy]

As.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Every time I'm being painted publicly as this different person, whether it's using a kernel of truth to paint a different picture or a complete fabrication. Right. But being reminded, you know, of my true self was like the only way to stay anchored.

[Charlie Mackesy]

But I think we need it.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, we need it all the time. It's like. Like that lovely line I remember hearing about. Like, the friends remind us. You know, life is like singing a song and friends remind us what it is when we forget it about ourselves, you know, And I think you. You what gave her the. What your friends and what your family did was just, we need. Like my mum. I think that's why I call the book Always Remember, because my mum, when, before I went to school, like the day school, I remember doing up the buttons of a duffel coat and she would squat down, do them up, and then there's a moment when she looks at you and you. You engage and. And she's, you know, we're always here. Always remember. Always remember we're here. We love you. And it's that kind of remember who you are.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, who am I? And who. What is my identity? And often when we. When someone says, who are you? You know, what do you do? You know, what? And we reach for things, external things, to engage with that question, but actually who we are, if you can. If you can come up with the answer that I am loved, that's enough for the rest of your life, regardless. And I think, you know, for Gabriel to have done that and given you is beautiful.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Still grateful. 20 plus years.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Look at that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It lasts that long.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Oh, I have so loved doing this.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Me too. Are we finished now?

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, I have one last question. I ask everybody the same last question.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, no.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yes.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It's not gonna be a wise answer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, then it doesn't have to be. But if there's anything that you are currently reclaiming in a really elastic.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Oh, that's a lovely question.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You know, definition and it. Sometimes people, you know, have talked about a place or a thing or so. I mean, it's very elastic.

[Charlie Mackesy]

No, I think it's probably. I think in my life, I've often been like a leaf being blown around in different directions and landing and being at the mercy of so many things and getting some. I know it's gonna sound weird, but getting some agency back to really value my own choices and go, no, I'm actually, no, I'm not gonna do that. And working out what is. What is a drain and what is a tap. And there will always be things that empty you, that are important. You do anyway, you know, listen to people when it's difficult, but to remember that you must make choices that are also good for you, that fill you, that give you back that it's not always. Because I spend a lot of my time, you know, letting it all. Doing things, doing things and to a degree, people pleasing probably.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I've seen a change in you just even from.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Have you?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah, just even from some small things. Last night at the event versus when you were here doing the. OR in LA doing the Oscar campaign.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Right. Yeah, I think I was very much, you know, okay, then. Okay then, you know, you just do what you're told.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Right. I think allowing yourself to be led versus making choices to lead yourself.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Very good. You know, and being led is fine, but you have to instill within that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Keep your choices alive and say, no, I'm going to do this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I like that. Keep your choices alive.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Yeah, keep them alive. Because often we surrender them.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

You know, I remember having a brilliant therapist years ago who didn't ever really offer me advice, which is so good. But he. At the end of a session and we had two brilliant therapists. One was an elderly lady who was just. Just magnificent. But he. I was talking about some. A kind of a. A community that I was involved in that I wanted to disengage from slightly, just move on. And he said, I've got one question for you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah?

[Charlie Mackesy]

I said, okay. And he said, you don't. You don't have to answer. I just want you to think about it. He said, at what point was it, do you think, that you chose to give them power? And I looked at him and said, keith, repeat that, please.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And he said, at what point do you think? And it was the word chose. And then I didn't realize a. That I chosen or given away power.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And he said, I'm going to do something which is antithetical to my profession, and I'm going to give you some advice. I said, okay. He said, can I suggest to you that you choose to take it back? And I literally felt like I was floating above the chair.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Wow.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And I was a Cheshire cat. Sorry, not. I shouldn't say cat with you, but I felt. I felt liberated. And this may not relate to anyone listening, but for me at the time, it was getting some agency back. That was a long time. But I'm very, very slow at change.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Many of us are.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Right. So it's like I'm like a rock with water dripping through. So it takes me time also to recognize that I'm changing at all. But I think to your question, the discovery that you can observe yourself and go, this is not good for me. Okay. On that basis, I'll say no. And that sounds very basic, but I understand that.

[Monica Lewinsky]

I get that. Really. I get that deeply.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And Colm was the one, he used to say, charlie, is it a tap or is it a drain? And be careful that, you know, there are things in life which inevitably will drain you that are important to do, but keep choosing the other one as well. And it's. I think. And love yourself.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

In that. And if you do love yourself, you're gentle with yourself. That love will spill out everywhere else and to other people. But if you're not giving yourself that. That agency of self, love and choice, you'll end up being bitter and tired.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

And resenting. And you don't need to do that. So that's my answer.

[Monica Lewinsky]

That's a great answer. I hope. I hope our chat was a. Was a tap and not a.

[Charlie Mackesy]

It is. I feel. I feel way better than I did when I came in. So clearly. I mean, it's always brilliant to talk.

[Monica Lewinsky]

To you, Charlie McAssy, what you're doing. Charlie, Charlie, Charlie, Charlie.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Thank you for having me.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Of course. Thank you.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I am aware that I'm so. My brain is so tired.

[Monica Lewinsky]

This was great.

[Charlie Mackesy]

What's it, though? Yeah. I mean, here's my other thing. If I walk out of here going, really? Did he say that? Why did he say that? Why didn't you say that? So I'm my self critic.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well, that's everybody.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Is it?

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah. That's all of us. Here's what I'm gonna say to you. Be kind to my friend Charlie.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I'll do my best.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Yeah.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

All right.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Likewise. Be kind to my friend Monica. Yeah. As you are. I mean, you know, I. But I. Your journey is incredible, and I think the fact that you're sharing is so insanely brave and what people gain from it is so empowering to so many people. And I think it's a beautiful thing you're doing.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Well.

[Charlie Mackesy]

I really do. I don't. I don't want to be gushing about this.

[Monica Lewinsky]

You're English, after all, so.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Emotionally stick within the lights. But thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

No, this was so. Thank you so much. This was so lovely.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Thank you.

[Monica Lewinsky]

It was so yummy.

[Charlie Mackesy]

Thank you. Yeah, for me, too.

[Monica Lewinsky]

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donnan for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.