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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:20]
Cindy Crawford
I guess that was one first Reclaiming coming months.
- [00:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [00:24]
Cindy Crawford
Because I was like turning 50, I think for a woman is scary and daunting and especially if you're a woman in the public eye and we live in a very ageist society. And it was like I either, you know, do I run from this or do I embrace it?
- [00:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Cindy, welcome to Reclaiming. Thank you so much for being here.
- [00:56]
Cindy Crawford
You're welcome. Thank you for having me.
- [00:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it's. I was thinking about that you are my first guest that I know coming into the studio. You play mahjong.
- [01:05]
Cindy Crawford
I do, yes.
- [01:07]
Monica Lewinsky
And so we haven't played yet together. I'm really bad still. But how did you get into it? How long have you been playing?
- [01:14]
Cindy Crawford
Yes, I've been playing probably about two years now. And I have a mommy group here in LA that we all actually, we all met doing pregnancy yoga together with our first children. So that was 26 years ago. Wow. And just kind of remained friends throughout all these different stages of our lives. And now we're all empty nesters, basically. So we started playing mahjong and one of my friends, Heidi, she has a little mahjong company like where it's travel Mahjong. It's called MAJ2GO.
- [01:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I, I, I not only know Maj, I love Maj to Go. They were just at a. Not going to remember the name of the organization.
- [01:51]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, and she does like events. Yeah. Yes.
- [01:52]
Monica Lewinsky
So it was a charity event for that they were at. And I'm obsessed actually with the Rummy D, the Rummy Cube to Go. So my I keep it in the car. So when I have my niece and nephew in a restaurant. Perfect in between ordering and the food coming.
- [02:08]
Cindy Crawford
So she taught us all basically and we started playing. And then I've been spending a lot of time in Miami and I found a group there and I actually went to play. My mother in law has been playing since she was a girl and I went to watch her and her friends play. They are so next level.
- [02:25]
Monica Lewinsky
It's funny because I played on election night so with my friends, which reminded me of this thing that I had seen this great quote Julia Roberts apparently plays to.
- [02:36]
Cindy Crawford
I love the quote that she plays.
- [02:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah. And she had this great quote from Colbert where she said she likes it because it brings order out of chaos. And I just thought that was so interesting.
- [02:47]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And the thing I like about it is you really do use your brain. It's not like a social thing.
- [02:51]
Monica Lewinsky
No. I mean, there's a little bit of.
- [02:52]
Cindy Crawford
Social while you're mixing the tiles, but when you're playing, I like. I can't talk and play.
- [02:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [02:58]
Cindy Crawford
I'm focused.
- [03:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes. And I think, for me, what I love about it is because it engages your brain so much, it's a little, for me, like going to the movies in a movie theater, where just the rest of life sort of gets pushed away. And I'm focused.
- [03:15]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And think about it like, in modern life, there's very few things where we're not multitasking. Right.
- [03:20]
Monica Lewinsky
I think we first met at that beautiful dinner Kate Beckinsale had. Was that. I don't know why, but I was really intimidated to meet. And you're so lovely. I think sometimes I do this weird. I don't even know how I come up with it, but it's like weird math in my head around, is someone gonna like me or not like me? And so I wasn't sure if you would like me.
- [03:42]
Cindy Crawford
I have no idea. Yeah. What do you have?
- [03:44]
Monica Lewinsky
I don't know. It's. I.
- [03:45]
Cindy Crawford
It's.
- [03:46]
Monica Lewinsky
I have no idea. It's probably. I should probably talk to my therapist about it. But you were just so lovely, and I just. I really loved connecting with you that night.
- [03:58]
Cindy Crawford
And it was a nice dinner, because also, it was all.
- [04:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [04:00]
Cindy Crawford
But I was so surprised that we hadn't met because I. You did work for Revlon, right? No.
- [04:05]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay. So this is so.
- [04:07]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, I thought you did.
- [04:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I was hired by Revlon.
- [04:11]
Cindy Crawford
Okay.
- [04:11]
Monica Lewinsky
And I was supposed to start. That was so my exit from D.C. before the investigation started. I got a little help from some friends in high places and interviewed and got a job at Revlon.
- [04:25]
Cindy Crawford
Okay.
- [04:26]
Monica Lewinsky
And I had gotten the job. I hadn't started. And when the story broke, they rescinded the offer.
- [04:32]
Cindy Crawford
Oh. See, it's so funny how memory. Because I worked with Revlon, and I worked with them, like, almost 20 years, and in my mind, you actually did work there, and it was, like, part of, like. Oh, female empowerment. But actually, it's the opposite.
- [04:47]
Monica Lewinsky
I like your version way better.
- [04:49]
Cindy Crawford
Okay, let's go with that one.
- [04:50]
Monica Lewinsky
We'll go into the multiverse, and I'll go back.
- [04:53]
Cindy Crawford
It's interesting that what you said about, like, doing the math, because I think that when you're in the public eye, for whatever reason, like, people often have a preconceived idea about who you are before they meet you. I mean, I feel that too. Like, sometimes people will have seen a podcast or an interview, and they. They feel like they know you, and I guess they know a facet of you from that. I think probably for you, that was heightened in a way that I can't even imagine because it was such a.
- [05:23]
Monica Lewinsky
That's so negative.
- [05:24]
Cindy Crawford
And it was so big.
- [05:26]
Monica Lewinsky
It was so big, so negative. And I was so young, you know, and hadn't chosen it, so I chose the mistakes I made, but I didn't choose being a public person.
- [05:36]
Cindy Crawford
Right.
- [05:37]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, you're now known for so many different things with your businesses, but initially being known for the exterior and the beauty of.
- [05:46]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. Which isn't.
- [05:48]
Monica Lewinsky
It's not bad.
- [05:49]
Cindy Crawford
It's not like a negative connotation. Right. But I. I definitely think a lot of models, especially maybe then, because there really wasn't a platform for us to say who we are. I mean, now young models get an opportunity to show who they are on their social media. Yeah, there's a lot more, you know, interviews and things like that. But then, really, models were just what you saw on a magazine cover. And I think that there's a lot of. Just assumption that, you know, you were, you know, dumb.
- [06:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. You know, meanwhile, right, you've got a scholarship for chemical engineering, right. To Northwestern. So, you know, excellent school.
- [06:30]
Cindy Crawford
And I think that, first of all, like, as a young woman, I didn't even understand that modeling was a real job like that, that I grew up in a small town outside of Chicago. I was. Loved school. I was very good at school. I wanted to be, I think, like, first woman president or. Which, by the way, it's still available, believe it or not, sadly. Yeah, exactly. Or a doctor or a teacher. Like, I definitely had aspirations for myself, but they were more around like, you know, being a nuclear physicist or something like that. I just thought was like a big job. And then the modeling thing just kind of happened. It wasn't something I really pursued. Once. Once the first door open, I, you know, I. I definitely stepped down that path. But I already had, you know, I guess because I already had the validation from, you know, I was a straight A student. I'd been valedictorian. I had gone to college, even though it was very brief, and I dropped out. But when people treated me like I was dumb, I was able to know that was more about them than it was about me. And I think I also learned, like, okay, sometimes I'm just gonna play this game, you know?
- [07:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, what does that look like.
- [07:46]
Cindy Crawford
Well, okay, for instance, sometimes. And you've been in front of the camera before where sometimes they ask you to do something completely ridiculous. Like, one time they asked me to. We were in Hawaii for Vogue shooting, and they wanted. They had a professional surfer there, and they. They said, can you just get on the surfboard with him, paddle out, get on his shoulders, and he's gonna surf in with you, but don't get your hair wet.
- [08:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay? What?
- [08:10]
Cindy Crawford
And I. I mean, I don't surf, so. And I was like, oh, sure, but can you just show me that? If you just show me what that looks like, I think I can probably do it. And then they were like, you know, we're just gonna do it on the beach. Wow, perfect. So very clever. I like that.
- [08:26]
Monica Lewinsky
It's so interesting to. I think, as you were saying, to just balance that, you know, people's expectations or what they're coming in with of what they know of you. And then the possibility that you're more.
- [08:40]
Cindy Crawford
Or you're different or today you're different. I think it does kind of force you to reflect on. Back on yourself and who you are other than letting the world tell you who you are. And, I mean, I know that you know exactly what I'm talking about, because it's like, even if. In my case, even if it's good, like, even if it was like, oh, she's a beautiful woman, whatever, but it's like, yeah, but today I'm feeling insecure, or today I'm having a hard day, or today I'm feeling like a bad mother, whatever, you know, like, we all have those bad days, too. And I think that, you know, that's the work really is, like, not being defined by. Incoming.
- [09:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Did you feel at any point where you almost. Because you were. I don't know if it's the right way to say it, but known for your beauty. Right. That you people wouldn't allow you to not feel. Have a day where you didn't feel great about how you looked or that it was. Does that make sense?
- [09:44]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, there's definitely the expert. I mean, even, like, I'll say, like, okay, we gotta do full Cindy Crawford today. Do you know what I mean? Like, whatever that thing is, like the hair, the makeup, you know, high heels or, you know, you know, I. I kind of understand that Cindy Crawford is a. Is like. It's a thing. It's a product. Yes. It's one facet of who I am, but it's not the totality by.
- [10:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [10:12]
Cindy Crawford
By any stretch of the imagination. So. And I remember, I remember I went on a, a blind date once.
- [10:19]
Monica Lewinsky
I call them half blind dates when you're a public person because it's like they know what you look like already.
- [10:25]
Cindy Crawford
Yes. And I, I, this other person also was a public.
- [10:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, okay.
- [10:30]
Cindy Crawford
Person.
- [10:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [10:32]
Cindy Crawford
But was before Google, right? So you couldn't like, totally. But you know, because this person knew me from the time, let's say I have Cosmo cover, right? Like, you know, pushed up boobs and big hair and super sexy. And I remember opening the door to my apartment and like, and again, this could be my own insecurity, but I felt like, this disappointment that I wasn't the walking, talking Cosmo cover. Wow. You know, and I, and then also, like, the things that go through your head is like, is that who I want to be in my life? Like, who, who do I, the world's going to say whatever they want about me, but who do I want to say I am? Because at least I got to take a stab at that. You know, I don't get to control the whole narrative, but I at least get to think about, like, who, who do I want to be in the world? How do I wanna show up in the world? How do I wanna present myself in the world? And it changes as time goes on.
- [11:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Have you sort of always been this way, or is this a place you've arrived at with hard work? Not that something's not valuable or earned if you didn't work for it, but it feels as if this is sort of really rooted in you as that you were almost always this way.
- [11:45]
Cindy Crawford
I think that it's probably the answer is both, I think. Like, look, I grew up in, like, a Midwestern family. I don't ever remember being complimented for my looks as a kid. So that wasn't my identity. We really got complimented for, like, effort. And I happened to be good at school. So if anything, I kind of saw myself as my older sister was like, the athlete. I would have probably been a better athlete, but I, I needed glasses. And no one had figured that out yet. So I, I was like, terrible at ball sports. You know, hit in the face or whatever. So I was the student. Like, that's who I was. And, you know, I was, like, popular in high school, but not, I wasn't homecoming queen, I wasn't a cheerleader. Like, I wasn't the most popular. I think I just, Yeah, I, I, I, I, I feel really lucky because I have a mother. I'm blessed. I still have my mother and my father, but she had a lot of not easy things. Like, she didn't have, like, a picture perfect, you know, fairy tale life. She got pregnant when she was 16. She got married when she was 16. She had my older sister when she was 17, me when she was 19, two more kids by 25. And then my little brother got diagnosed with leukemia. We lost. He died when he was 4. So my mother went through a lot, and she still was like. And I have written about this and talked about it a lot. Like, I used to call her Pollyanna. And I meant it not as a compliment. I kind of thought. I almost thought she was simple, that she. I was like, you don't. Like, the world is like, why are you always, like, seeing the glass half full? And only as I've gone through life have I realized, like, that is actually one of the bravest choices you can make and not to let that stuff, you know, wear you down and make you bitter. And so I really respect the choices that my mother made. And a lot of it was rooted in her faith and just who she is. She's one of seven. She's very pragmatic. She's funny. She's not like, you know, she's real. It's like, the real stuff matters with her.
- [13:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting because I use the same word with my mom, and I think that there also has been this kind of negative connotation when I. When I use it. And at the same time, recognizing that it was her Pollyanna Ish attitudes or things she'd say in 98, that actually helped get me through.
- [14:22]
Cindy Crawford
Right. Like what? Oh, well, I, you know, it's gonna be okay. Yeah.
- [14:27]
Monica Lewinsky
Or just, like, you'll see, you'll be able to go outside again one day. You'll be able to go out without a hat. You'll be able to, you know, those kinds of things. And so I think that where my dad is probably more pragmatic and my mom's just. She has chronic pain and she's just always cheerful.
- [14:44]
Cindy Crawford
Right.
- [14:44]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, it is, and it is a blessing. It's such an interesting. It's such an interesting thing.
- [14:52]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And I don't know where she got that from. Her own mother wasn't really that way. And there's been times. Yeah. Where I think, especially as I was becoming, you know, I was a young woman, like, I was. I thought I was like, just like, kind of like, you're like, wake up. Like, this really is a bad person or whatever. But I realized the grace in it, not just for other People. But for herself, it's like, made her life so much better that she chooses the outlook that she chooses.
- [15:22]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Because I think you're 100% right that it. You could very easily, and I have, I think, made this mistake, kind of misinterpret that. Pollyanna Ish. For ignorance is bliss. And it's not that.
- [15:36]
Cindy Crawford
No.
- [15:36]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, there's a. There's. There is a very strong distinction there. And there. There really is a value to that, I think, to others around you. And maybe. I wonder. I mean, not to sort of gender stereotype, but I wonder if there's something about, you know, the maternal, the nurturing, the watering that they do of children that sort of.
- [15:56]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. My mother's is interesting, though, because it is mixed with a pragmatism.
- [16:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [16:01]
Cindy Crawford
Even though she would, like, see the glass half full, she wasn't, like, overly complimentary. You know what I mean? She wasn't, like, overly sweet, like, saccharine at all.
- [16:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Oh, that's really interesting. I want to meet your mom.
- [16:13]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah, no, my mom's amazing. Yeah, she's great.
- [16:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Does she come to LA ever or.
- [16:17]
Cindy Crawford
She does.
- [16:19]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [16:19]
Cindy Crawford
I see her mostly. She lives in Florida, so I see her when I'm down there. And, you know, she just doesn't travel as much as she. But she's great. She's hilarious.
- [16:27]
Monica Lewinsky
I feel very privileged to kind of be a grownup and still have my parents. You know, I mean, there's. People talk about this. You know, you get to a point in your life where you realize that your parents are great and cool and you're not embarrassed of them anymore and that. And you really start to appreciate, you know, their qualities. And I feel that way with my parents. And, you know, I had a stepdad. I have a stepmom. So there are people who just deeply love you and, you know, bring a lot to your world in that way.
- [16:58]
Cindy Crawford
And even learning, like, to see them as flawed human beings, which we all are. I think that that's also, like, another growth step for us is like, oh, yeah, they were just doing the best because, like, you know, sometimes you screw up and it's. But you were doing the best you can. And then you're like, oh, yeah, they were just doing the best they could, too.
- [17:22]
Monica Lewinsky
I think my version of that agreed. And my version of that was realizing my parents had been kids and sort of understanding them through the lens of what their childhood experiences were. And that shifted something for me.
- [17:39]
Cindy Crawford
Right.
- [17:40]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm curious around, like, what your inner. Like, we know so much we see so much the exterior. And I'm just curious, your inner life, like, what's your inner landscape? Are you happy? Are you anxious? Are you type A, type B?
- [17:53]
Cindy Crawford
You know, I definitely wouldn't say I'm not anxious.
- [17:57]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [17:57]
Cindy Crawford
Okay. I'm probably better at saying what I'm not.
- [18:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [18:01]
Cindy Crawford
I make decisions and I move on. Wow.
- [18:04]
Monica Lewinsky
Is that something you had to.
- [18:05]
Cindy Crawford
And I actually do. No. But I've realized that not everyone does that.
- [18:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh.
- [18:11]
Cindy Crawford
And I just read or heard on a podcast recently about how people who do that tend to be less anxious because they're not like, second guessing constantly. So I'm definitely like. And, and people that work with me and for me, they'll, you know, if they show me something, do you like this or this? I'm like that. And sometimes they want me to say this. Right. And they'll. So they'll try to trick me and like, ask me two weeks later. And I'm like that. Like, I, I don't. I don't waver. I'm like that and I move on. And I don't. Now I'll say, you don't have to agree with me. And if the whole team thinks it should be this, like, right, let's talk about that. But I. This is my belief. So I think that that's one way I am. I mean, it's not that I don't ever feel anxious, but I normally understand why I'm feeling it. So to me, that kind of generalized anxiety that doesn't have a cause. It's like that I don't experience. Like, if I'm feeling that way. I know. Oh, it's. It's because I'm worried about. It's. It's specific to something. So to me, that's information.
- [19:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay. Like, interesting.
- [19:18]
Cindy Crawford
I, I don't judge it as, like, bad. It's like, oh, it's telling me I need to think more about this or, or sometimes just give it up to the universe. Right. Because I have no control over a lot of things, especially as a mother, you realize, like, oh, oh. I don't have control over anything anymore. This is terrible. I'm very organized. I'm very linear thinker, unlike my husband, who's a very. Like, our brains could not be more different. I would love to do one of those, like, brain scans of our brains.
- [19:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Because I just had Miley Cyrus on last week, and so she did this spec brain scan with Dr. Amen at the Amen clinic, which I've always wanted to do one too, so.
- [19:59]
Cindy Crawford
And I'VE seen those. I've just never done it. And my husband will get frustrated sometimes and I'm like, look, look, I was to calculus. I'm. I know, I know. My thinking is chemical linear, right? Because he, he'll be like A to Q and then like B and G. And then he's frustrated that we didn't keep up with him. And I'm like, fill in the blank a little bit. I'm sure I'll get there. So he's a way more creative, he's a businessman. But the way he approaches it is like a creative.
- [20:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [20:29]
Cindy Crawford
Whereas even though like my world is probably, you know, it's in the creative world, I think I approach it more from like an analytic perspective. So my inner landscape, I mean, I love to read. I definitely love time. Like my one part of my day that's really important and I really noticed this when I had kids is I need that time in the morning just to set myself up for success.
- [20:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [21:00]
Cindy Crawford
So I would get up 20 minutes before my kids got up so that I had that. Because that was really important. Like I didn't want to wake up to mommy, I need, you know, this. I needed like, okay, take care of myself for 15 minutes first. Then I could be my best. Well, not every minute of the day, but I had a better chance of being my best self in the day. So. And I still do that. I get up, have my little ritual go down. We live in Malibu. I'll go take a jacuzzi. I'm outside, I'm in nature. My feet are in the grass. I have like this connection to nature to source. All of that helps ground me. And, and, and then I'm able to like tack. By the time I come in from that, I'm like, okay, I can, I can do whatever. And then sometimes my husband's just walking down, I'm like, we gotta try this, this, this. And it's like, whoa, can I have my coffee first? You know? But I've already done the prep work for myself.
- [21:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Uh huh. Are you able to not look right when you get up?
- [21:59]
Cindy Crawford
So really that is a new habit that I have implemented in the last couple years, which is. And again, probably heard it on a podcast, but it was like, think about it. What is the first input you want? So I listen to a Bible podcast or whatever every morning they read the Bible verse and then someone does a summary of it. That's my first input. While I'm doing my dry brushing and I'm putting body oil on. Like I have, I Don't look at my messages or emails until I've taken that time for myself. So I have like 20 minutes, which, by the way, 20, even 20 minutes is hard because sometimes to get to my app, the Bible app, I have to, like, I have to turn my phone on, right? And I'll see that there's messages. Like, I'm controlling the flow, the first input. Because what if someone has sent you, like, a stressful text or email and that's the first thing you wake up to, and now you're in, like, response mode or, like, adrenaline gets going because someone said the wrong word and a text that you took the wrong. You know, I just don't want that. I want to control my input for as long as I can.
- [23:11]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Has faith always been a big part of your life?
- [23:15]
Cindy Crawford
You know, I grew up going to Sunday school and everything, but certainly when my brother got sick, and then after he died, having a church community, that really showed up for our family. And then watching how having such a strong faith really helped my mother deal with losing a child. So that was always there. And then, you know, you're a teenager, like, stop going to church. Like, as soon as I moved to New York, I was like, you know, no one's making me go, okay, I'm not going.
- [23:48]
Monica Lewinsky
But that's interesting, because then you chose it.
- [23:51]
Cindy Crawford
But I still had the foundation of that. And then I just think over the years, I have reconnected in ways like, I think, you know, like, for instance, like when I had my first child, it's like I remember calling my mom and saying, how did you live? How did you survive losing? Like, you can't imagine. You don't want to imagine losing a child, but you can't even imagine what that would be like until you have your own child. And then you're like, oh, my God, like, what would happen to me if something happened to this little baby? And so I guess it was always been there, but at different times in my life, it's been more in the shadows or more in the forefront.
- [24:31]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, so as you're saying, so near impossible. Not something you want to imagine losing a child with him having been so young, do you feel like you still. You're able to still have memories of him? Is it like you just feel him in your heart or.
- [24:50]
Cindy Crawford
I think it's weird. Cause I don't know if they're real memories or they're memories of stories. Do you know What I mean?
- [24:56]
Monica Lewinsky
100%. Or sometimes memories of the story that comes from the photo Exactly.
- [25:01]
Cindy Crawford
Right. I mean, I have one pretty clear memory of. There was a song that I think we were learning, like, for our Christmas show at school. It was called, like, I have Lost My Underwear. It was about, like, long underwear.
- [25:14]
Monica Lewinsky
Wait, I. Wait.
- [25:15]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. I have lost my underwear. I don't care.
- [25:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [25:17]
Cindy Crawford
Bye.
- [25:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Bye.
- [25:18]
Cindy Crawford
Bye. We call them long johns, Right.
- [25:21]
Monica Lewinsky
We don't need them here at camp anyway. They were damp.
- [25:24]
Cindy Crawford
You have the candy ones. Okay. So. So. And we put long johns on my brother, like, and it came up to his shoulders, and they were like, probably my dad's or whatever, and he was running around in them. That's. That's, like, one very clear memory I have. But I think, like, with what. What I feel I've been able, like, to understand is, like, Jeff's energy. For me, it just feels like it's like an energy. And in some ways, I feel like it almost was like rocket fuel for me in my life to tap into. Like. Yeah, I. I don't know that that's how I picture it. It's weird because I was only 10, so I was pretty young in it. And I've talked a lot about how loss and grief is not something our society really does well or talks about.
- [26:17]
Monica Lewinsky
No. Nor shame. Nor shame.
- [26:19]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah, that is. Yeah. And so I remember going back to school, and people didn't know what to say with me. Like, no one even said anything because, like, they didn't know what to say. Right. Like, we're not taught. Like, hey, when someone passes, what is the right thing to say? You know? I know what I say now, which is, I have no idea what you're going through. Because even, like, I know my husband lost his father, and other people would be like, oh, I know what you're going through. I lost my dad, too. But it's like. But I don't know what your relationship was.
- [26:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Or you didn't know that person.
- [26:52]
Cindy Crawford
So I would never assume that I know what someone else is going through. So I kind of say that. And then I say, if there's anything I can do, let me know and just leave it open. But not saying anything for me anyway was the worst.
- [27:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [27:09]
Cindy Crawford
Like, not ign. Because it would be like, wow, like, this big, catastrophic thing happened in my life, and no one's like, even the teacher, really? I don't think said anything. I was like, I just came back to school and that was that. And then I remember one kid said something like, oh, my parents said, your brother died. Is that true? Or something? And I was like, yeah, like, I Said something like that would be a weird thing to lie about, you know, because. But it was just, it was so awkward.
- [27:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Right? Yeah. It's interesting. Beanie Feldstein came on the show and we were talking about, she goes to this grief camp one week a year where she's a counselor there. She lost her brother as an adult and so they work with kids. And she was talking about, I mean, I learned so much from her talking about this camp because she was saying that kids really, to your point, kids like concrete. Concrete language.
- [28:02]
Cindy Crawford
Yes.
- [28:02]
Monica Lewinsky
Say died.
- [28:03]
Cindy Crawford
Yes.
- [28:04]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, oh, your father's in a better place. Well, no, you know, he's not in a better, A better place is at our dining room table, you know, so it's so interesting because we don't, you know, as you're saying, we don't have a lot of language around grief.
- [28:18]
Cindy Crawford
We lost a friend, probably my kids were maybe they were young, elementary school, and I remember and he was in a car accident and they were very close to this guy. And so I remember I called like a family therapist and I was like, what do I say? And she said something similar. She said, you say first you say, I have some very sad news. Because like if you just say, oh, our friend died, right. If they haven't dealt with death yet, they don't know what is the appropriate feeling. So. Oh, that's interesting. So you, you first say, like, I have some very sad news because now you're telling them sad is the feeling that's the correct feeling. And then you say, like you said, very specific. Our dear friend died in a car accident, not went to be with Jesus, not is in a better place or whatever your belief system is, died. And then you say, if you have any more questions, I'm happy to answer them. And she was like, they might start laughing because they are, it's a new. They might go play video games. They might have questions like follow their lead. And I, I think that's actually that advice helped me in other things as well. Like even when you have to have the sex talk with your kids or whatever, open the door in like a very clear way and then let them lead by asking questions.
- [29:41]
Monica Lewinsky
That's really interesting.
- [29:43]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. But I thought the part that was really helpful is by telling the appropriate. Right feeling. Because I remember actually when my brother died, we were at my grandparents house and, and I, and I just remember I heard the phone ring in the middle of the night. My parents were supposed to take my brother to the hospital in the morning. So me and my sisters were at my grandparents house and the phone rang in the middle of the night. It must have registered, but I didn't get up or anything. But then in the morning we're all sitting there and my parents walk in without my brother and I guess my grandparents were waiting for my parents to come, but the second we saw them without him, you know, they didn't have to say anything. And then everyone just started crying and it was like that I do have a very strong memory of is just like that full family, almost like a animal sound. Like coming from my grandpa, my dad, my mom, you know, I think there was an aunt and uncle there and everyone was just like crying and I mean we were too obvious because when as you're a kid too, when you watch all the adults around you crying, it's scary and sad. But again, my parents were so young and they were doing the, you know, they didn't have a therapist to call to find out like how do we tell our children this? And I think it was interesting because just some of the work I've done later in life I was able to say to my mom, like I wish you could have said and there's no way you wouldn't know to say this is like we're so sad that Jeff died and we're so happy that you're still here. Wow. Because I think like my sisters and I, we would always have these dreams that it should have been one of the girls who died. And I mean, I haven't had one probably in 10 years, but like we would all have this dream that somehow.
- [31:34]
Monica Lewinsky
But still like even 10 years ago, that's a long time to be, you know, having that.
- [31:42]
Cindy Crawford
And I didn't even. It was like, it wasn't like I was carrying this big thing, but it was like the survivor's guilt. Right. And she wouldn't have known to say that, but. And then she was able to look, this was like two Christmases ago. She. She was like, was able to say it to me and it was just like a. Such a nice little, like little, little healing. Cindy took it in and like the little ways that we can heal ourselves. And you know, for her too, probably.
- [32:18]
Monica Lewinsky
There are areas that I want to get into and talk about too because I think that one was really, you know, I like to have a very elastic definition of reclaiming on the show. And you and three of the other supermodels participated, were executive producers even on the Supermodels docu series. And I think that what was interesting is coming across the quote where I think you were saying, like, you wanted to own your own story. You wanted to take your story back and be sure. I mean, can you talk to me about how you guys got to that decision and how that all happened?
- [32:56]
Cindy Crawford
Yes. And, I mean, that was definitely a labor of love and sometimes other emotions, let's say. But I did. I started in, like, 2014. I started thinking, like, when enough time had passed, and all of a sudden we were references again for, like, the Young Models. Right. So I just felt like it was someone was gonna do a version of this story. And I kept saying, you guys, let's let it be us. At least have the first crack at it. Yeah. And just for different reasons. We didn't know Linda was going through breast cancer and different things at the time. So she. She. She was like, I want to do it, but not yet. And I was like, oh, okay. And I kept jokingly go, none of us are getting younger except Naomi. I'm like, somehow Naomi's getting younger, but the rest of us aren't. I'm like, let's do it while we're still recognizable. And then we decided to do it, and then Covid happened, and, like, half of it was done, like, over zoom and everything. And as documentaries do, they tend to take on a life of their own. So I would definitely say the finished product is not it. It did. It accomplished what I wanted it to accomplish, but it also had, like, some.
- [34:10]
Monica Lewinsky
What was. What was it that you wanted it to accomplish?
- [34:13]
Cindy Crawford
I just wanted it to understand, like, and why and why. I didn't want it to be just about me because I did a book when I turned 50. I guess that was one first reclaiming coming. Yes.
- [34:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes.
- [34:26]
Cindy Crawford
Because turning 50, I think, for a woman is scary and daunting, and especially if you're a woman in the public eye and we live in a very ageist society. And it was like, I either, you know, do I run from this? Or do I embrace it? And it was like, okay, this is a way. And it was my publicist, Annette Wolf, and another woman that's worked from me for a long time. They. They really encouraged me to do it. And I was like, okay, I. I want to do this. And while we were doing the book, it came up, oh, you should do a documentary to be with a book. And I'm like, I don't want a documentary just on me. I frankly, I'm way too boring for a documentary. And disagree. No, but I mean, like, I haven't had, like, a super dramatic life. I mean, I've had like a maybe very public life, but there isn't, like, high drama, so. But I also thought what was. We were like a band almost. We were like these four women from different lives in different places and where the sum of our parts was. Was greater than each of us individually. And it was like a cultural phenomena of the excess in New York of the late 80s. And. And it was a time where models all of a sudden came off the page and like, you know, Gianni Versace there was. The documentary explains a lot of it. So it was really. It was really telling that story, like, explaining to people why that moment in.
- [35:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Time was so special and anchoring it in the culture.
- [35:52]
Cindy Crawford
Exactly. What I didn't want it to be was like, where are they now? Or behind the scenes, you know, it was understanding the context of why that moment. And like, I guess the George Michael video and all that, like, and the Versace show, there were certain moments that exemplified that, but it was like putting in the context of what was happening before that and then what happened afterwards. Like, I was saying earlier in this interview that I didn't grow up even knowing models really, or knowing that was a real career. But if you think about, like, now, not only, you know, there was America's Next Top Model made it like every young girl knew about modeling, then became Instagram. And every girl is a model right in their own life. They all know their great angles. They all, you know, so it was a very different world then. And I thought that's what was interesting to me about it. And so that's how that kind of came about. But it definitely took a long time to wrangle everybody. And then Covid. But I'm glad we did it because. And again, probably maybe someone else will do it. But I had my chance to say what I want to say.
- [37:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I'm so curious around you're saying about that. You're sort of a foursome. You know, I think women, we're so amazing and complicated. Right? We can be our, like, our own best cheerleaders and our own worst enemies. Was there. Did you each feel like you had your own space in this world? Or was there competition? Or was it healthy competition?
- [37:30]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And I think. I think the way that I see it as a band is more like, you know, before us, there was like, this group of blondes. It was like Kim, Alexis, Kelly, Emberg, and they were all kind of like glamazon blondes. Like, they all looked very similar. And then there was us, and we all looked different, but we somehow Looked good together. And it was almost like we all had, like, you know, Christy was, like, the classic beauty, and I was, like, the sexy girl next door. And Naomi had been a dancer and obviously is a woman of color. And then Linda was the chameleon. We had our little roles that were different. It's of the friendships, of course. We were all friends and friendly, and we did shows together, for sure. Christy, Linda, and Naomi were. They were called, like, the Trinity.
- [38:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [38:16]
Cindy Crawford
And then I had my head in a book somewhere. You know, like, I was there, but, like, I was in bed early and reading a book. I wouldn't say there was jealousy. Well, I guess it. I don't know the technical definition. There were times where I'd be like, oh, I wish I would have done that. Shoot, that Christy did. She looks so amazing. But it wasn't like, I wish she didn't do it.
- [38:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right, right.
- [38:36]
Cindy Crawford
So I think one's envy and one's jealous. Is there one that. Is there one?
- [38:40]
Monica Lewinsky
I know I always get them confused, and I'm really good with mnemonics, but I haven't come up with a good one for that.
- [38:46]
Cindy Crawford
Okay. So I definitely.
- [38:49]
Monica Lewinsky
Think that's envy. I think envy is the one where you.
- [38:53]
Cindy Crawford
You wish you would have.
- [38:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. You don't wish the other person didn't have it. You just wish you also had it. And I think jealousy is the.
- [39:00]
Cindy Crawford
Has the negative. Right.
- [39:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, So I guess, like, jealous ex girlfriend. Right. Or jealous.
- [39:05]
Cindy Crawford
So I guess there was envy, but not really jealousy, but it was more like, wow, that's so good. I wish I could have done that. Shoot.
- [39:13]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, and then you have this whole other world in life as an entrepreneur, too. And I know Bill Guthy and Victoria Jackson really well, so I know that you had this product line with them. And one of the big questions I had was you had this contract with Revlon. Right. And you're 35. Correct me if I get the history wrong. Right. So you're 35, and they don't renew it, or you chose not to renew it?
- [39:44]
Cindy Crawford
I chose not to renew it.
- [39:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay. And did you choose not to renew it because you knew you wanted to do your own line? Okay.
- [39:51]
Cindy Crawford
Yes. I'd been with Revlon, I think, at that point, 17 years. Yeah. And I knew it was time to do my own thing. I didn't know what exactly, so. And, you know, there were some other minor reasons, but it was really more like it was just time, you know, Sometimes you just know it's time. It's like, it was great, and now it's time. And I thought, if I'm ever gonna do my own thing, this is the time. And of course, everyone wanted me to do cosmetics. And I was like, but I'm, you know, I'm not a makeup artist. My job is to take care of my skin. So I partnered with a doctor in Paris, Dr. Sabah, and we decided to do skin care, but we didn't know who we were going to do it with. Like, I, I really shopped it around high and low and. But I had met Bill's partner, Greg Ranker, and he kept wanting me to do, oh, what's the acne one?
- [40:46]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, proactive.
- [40:48]
Cindy Crawford
I'm like, greg, I don't have acne. I mean, I'm like, I would take your money, but I would really. I wouldn't feel good, like, promoting an anti acne.
- [40:56]
Monica Lewinsky
You're very authentic. So.
- [40:58]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And by the way, like, you only have to screw that up once and then it's really hard to gain back. Right? Yeah. So I just was. It just didn't feel right. But then when I wanted to do my own skincare line, I talked to Bill and Greg, and even though it was a much riskier thing, they gave me more control and full partnership. And I also just felt like we had a very compelling story and the, you know, a 30 minute infomercial, which is what we did then. Now. Now it's like we're digital like everybody else. Whatever. We haven't quite tackled the TikTok yet. I'm like, oh, I might have to learn TikTok yet. It scares me. Like, that's just one more thing on my phone that I'm afraid, like, I'd rather play Maj on than be on TikTok, like, on my Maj app. So I partnered with them because of all these reasons, but mostly because we had 30 minutes to tell a real story. Because otherwise, how do you compete with, like, the big boys, you know, the big brands that are spending millions and millions? I mean, we know how much they spend. I mean, I did because I was, I was one of the beneficiaries of it. So I was like, how do we compete with that? And I felt like we had a story. So infomercial seemed to be the right choice. And they've been incredible partners. I mean, I signed with them in 2001, but we launched in 2004. So we're, you know, 21 years now. And I never thought I would still be doing this. I never thought I would still be in front of the camera. I never thought even When I did Meaningful Beauty, I thought it would be a five year thing or a ten year thing. And we just had a board meeting, I think two weeks ago, and I was like, you guys, I've already won. Like, I've won. I never thought we would still be doing this, but now we have employees and customers that, you know, that feels good. And it's also a responsibility. Like, I want our team to really, you know, be behind every decision we make. It's not just me because, like, it's like, now we're a big team.
- [42:49]
Monica Lewinsky
There's a great. I'm gonna find it. Cause it's such a great quote. So it was from the New York Times, and it was Ms. Crawford's interest in transcending modeling to become a brand. Decades before, personal branding was a career path is what has distinguished her from her peers.
- [43:05]
Cindy Crawford
Yes. And at the time, I did not know that's what I was doing. No one was talking about branding or what's your brand or define your brand. But I knew what was true to me and I knew what felt authentic to me. So, you know, the fitness stuff. And then, and then I, you know, I did a, a little makeup book with a friend of mine and then we did a kid's book when I had a kid, like, but everything was like attached to me in a real way.
- [43:35]
Monica Lewinsky
And organic. It sounds very organic.
- [43:37]
Cindy Crawford
Yes.
- [43:38]
Monica Lewinsky
If I did an exercise video, I.
- [43:40]
Cindy Crawford
Think people would know I was doing.
- [43:43]
Monica Lewinsky
It for the money. But I think you, you know, you sort of.
- [43:47]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. Because I had benefited so much from working out with this trainer, Radu, and everyone would ask me, like, what do you do? And at the time, no one had trainers. So it wasn't like, oh, you should get a trainer. Especially where I came from, no one could afford a trainer. So it was like, how do I share what I've learned from Radu with? I always say, like, could my mother and sisters, like, would they relate to this? Could they do this? Could they afford this? And Meaningful Beauty was like that too. Like, I met this incredible doctor in Paris. He was helping me kind of like, okay, figuring out, like, how to take care of my skin as I age. They can't go to Paris, they can't get in to see this guy. But how do we bottle this?
- [44:24]
Monica Lewinsky
How do you share that?
- [44:25]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And so that was really the impetus of Meaningful Beauty.
- [44:28]
Monica Lewinsky
I really love that. I mean, and it is knowledge that you're sharing, it's knowledge through a product. Because I was going to say, I feel like we normally have that experience with knowledge of somebody sharing knowledge. But really that's.
- [44:40]
Cindy Crawford
But it's like what works for you or a recipe, Right. It's like, I always say there's, like, two type of women. The one that will give you a recipe, but they leave out, like, one key ingredient, or the ones that will give you the whole ingredient, send you the recipe and the brands and the ingredients.
- [44:55]
Monica Lewinsky
It's funny because you've shared, like in New York or different hairdressers for editorial things you've shared. And, you know, it's that thing of sort of. Some women are. They'll tell you they're wearing a different perfume than the one, right. It's sort of. They.
- [45:09]
Cindy Crawford
No. And I'm always, like, showing, like, the label. Like, someone would be like, cute shirt. I'm like, oh, here's the label, you know?
- [45:13]
Monica Lewinsky
Or me. I'm like, I got it at the outlet, you know? So it's a.
- [45:17]
Cindy Crawford
It's a.
- [45:18]
Monica Lewinsky
It's a thing that way. One other thing I was thinking about, aside from the fact two things we have in common. One is we've both been Halloween costumes. So I think. From your Pepsi.
- [45:27]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, my God, I didn't even think about that. Yes.
- [45:30]
Monica Lewinsky
So I. Yes.
- [45:32]
Cindy Crawford
Does it show up every year for you? It's still probably. After the Ryan Murphy thing, it probably resurfaced, right?
- [45:41]
Monica Lewinsky
It was. I wrote a piece for vanity fair in 2000, I think, 15 or 16, about being a Halloween costume. Sort of all the bizarre things that come with that and the others, because. Well, it can be. And I think in your case, too, it's sort of specific to the Pepsi.
- [46:00]
Cindy Crawford
Commercial because it's easy. Also, it's a white tank top. It's cutoffs in a Pepsi can. And like a big blowout, and you draw a mole on and you're Cindy Crawford. It's fine.
- [46:08]
Monica Lewinsky
But what's interesting is it becomes a cultural reflection of the year, Right?
- [46:12]
Cindy Crawford
Yes.
- [46:12]
Monica Lewinsky
So I think that year, I think that was sort of the. The Rachel Dolezal story, the woman who was white but identified as black. And so it was just this. It just becomes this interesting thing of. There's a line of who's appropriate to Halloween costumify and who's not, you know? Or what is it? What does it mean?
- [46:33]
Cindy Crawford
So I think I've been to parties where no one's asked themselves those questions. And. But here's a funny question for you. Like, who have you dressed up as? Oh, gosh, that is like, who is famous? Like.
- [46:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Okay. I remember. I think just because I Saw something about her on Instagram. I don't know that I would go there normally. I did dress up as Elvira when I was younger. I was. I don't know if this was for Halloween. I was beyond. Jill Brockman and I were obsessed with Grease.
- [47:01]
Cindy Crawford
And I've done Sandy.
- [47:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, yeah. But end of the movie Sandy.
- [47:05]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, yeah, the sexy Sandy with the red shoes.
- [47:08]
Monica Lewinsky
Exactly. And the black stretches no one wants to do.
- [47:10]
Cindy Crawford
Nice sand aid.
- [47:10]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no. But the other thing, going back to the calendars is now did her Brits shoot.
- [47:17]
Cindy Crawford
He did not shoot my calendar. He shot the Pirelli calendar, which I did also. But.
- [47:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, maybe that's what I was thinking about.
- [47:23]
Cindy Crawford
No, there was another photographer, Marco Glaviano, who is an Italian guy, and he was perfect for kind of like a little cheesy calendar. I mean, I adore him, and he knows, but he knew what straight guys wanted. Let's put it that way.
- [47:39]
Monica Lewinsky
He knew the assignment.
- [47:40]
Cindy Crawford
Yes.
- [47:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. No. My first photo shoot ever was with Herb Ritz.
- [47:47]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, my gosh. Yeah.
- [47:49]
Monica Lewinsky
That's what a global scandal will get you. Oh, I miss him so much. But I was so. It was just. Was really interesting to me. I mean, I'm sure you've learned so many things about the art of photography and those things from shoots, but I was really surprised to learn from that, that so much of the photo that gets made is a reflection of the chemistry between the photographer and the subject. Or can be sometimes.
- [48:19]
Cindy Crawford
I was gonna say, I think it depends on the photographer. I mean, like, Herb definitely, I would say he had such a crush on.
- [48:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Him, even though he was gay.
- [48:27]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. But Herb loved people and kind of back to what we were talking about, like, our mothers being Pollyanna. In a way, Herb was, too. Like, Herb always saw people as the people best version of themselves. I never heard Herb say a bad word about anybody. And he, like, wanted movie stars to be movie stars. He wanted, like, he. He is an LA kid. He. He grew up, like, fantasizing about, like, Hollywood. Right. So that is. That was the lens that he. That he put on his subjects.
- [48:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, when you were saying before about the shoot where they wanted you to go on the surfboard, where I thought you were gonna go was somewhere around. They wanted you to do something that was.
- [49:13]
Cindy Crawford
Oh, like naked or something inappropriate.
- [49:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [49:15]
Cindy Crawford
I mean, that's happened, too.
- [49:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. But I. You know, I made the. No one had bad intentions on the shoot, but I made a really bad mistake, I think, in the Herb shoot of, you know, it was the End of the day, and we went down to the beach, and someone was like, oh, we have this big American flag. And there I was. You know, it's.
- [49:37]
Cindy Crawford
You know, I'm gonna Google this as soon as I go home.
- [49:39]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, thank God it was her Brits photo. So it looked nice, you know, and it was a very. It was a very strange shoot because I wasn't able to say anything publicly. So this is the middle of 1998. It's April 1998. I was. The most exciting thing about that day for me, aside from someone making me look attractive and feeling attractive, was I got to be outside. Like, I couldn't be outside for such a long time. And so it was just this opportunity came, and I think my lawyers sort of saw. I mean, I was just the butt of so many jokes and people fat shaming and I'm ugly and I'm this and all the things. And so to, you know, to sort of have a day where Lauren Scott is styling you and Herbertz is shooting you, and Krista Smith is there making everything amazing. It was a really magical day. And, you know, I posed with a poodle. And. But. But I really felt later, I. I just thought, you know, it. It was. I should have thought through it more. You know, I was so young.
- [50:50]
Cindy Crawford
How could you? I was so young. And also, you have all these other forces trying to make, especially Vanity Fair, like, titillating photos. Right?
- [50:57]
Monica Lewinsky
I know, but I love Graydon, and Vanity Fair changed my life. Not from the shoot, but. Yes, yes, but you're right.
- [51:03]
Cindy Crawford
But I'm just saying, like, they had an assignment, too.
- [51:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, yes, that is. That is true.
- [51:08]
Cindy Crawford
And I mean, just a boring picture of you in a suit, right?
- [51:12]
Monica Lewinsky
There was one of those. Yeah, one.
- [51:14]
Cindy Crawford
Yeah. And then they're like, hey, now, get the bag. Right?
- [51:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Look at this gorgeous dress. And that was definitely eye candy for me. So it was. It was a really. It was a really mixed, you know, interesting experience. But it was something that. It helped me. It helped me at the time to, you know, to sort of shoulder all the negativity coming towards.
- [51:37]
Cindy Crawford
And I think also, if you learned every experience is a lesson, right, either what to do more of or to do less of. And even in looking at those pictures, I mean, yes, her beautified everybody. So, like, being able to see that in yourself, I think was probably great. But also, you might go, you know what? Next time, I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna start. And that's where we grow up, right? Like, is making those choices. Like, I Did a lot of stuff. You know, the only, I've done a ton of nude pictures. I've done Playboy. The only one I regret ever is the one I got talked into. Oh, interesting. Every other one I knew what I was doing. Like I did Playboy with Herb. I did twice. But one time a guy was shooting like reportage at my apartment and he. And I wasn't even naked, I was just topless from the back. But I felt manipulated into it. That's so interesting. And that's the only one that I look at. And I like.
- [52:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Was there like stuff going on in your life because you know, you've just, you've made you seem like you're always kind of making the right decision. Obviously you're human, so you make mistakes at times. But did that feel like an anomaly for you that something was going on in your life or just, you know.
- [52:56]
Cindy Crawford
I think it, I don't know. And I don't even know if this is the right order, but what just popped in my head is like, once you've done a naked picture, then people think, oh right, she does nudes.
- [53:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Uh huh.
- [53:08]
Cindy Crawford
But it's not that way. It's kind of like it has to be right. Chemistry has to be right. I have to feel comfortable. Like Herb. Obviously I felt 100% was safe. Safe, not sexualized. He looked at people like architecture.
- [53:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [53:24]
Cindy Crawford
So I could do it with him, I could do it with, I did it with straight guys too. But just certain people maybe give you like a weird vibe. And I had one and I, and I just didn't know how to say no or didn't say no. And like I said, it's not even, it's not even the most revealing picture of me by far. But when I look at it, I know what I was feeling.
- [53:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I imagine when you step into doing nude photos, like with this, the confidence and the beauty factor or the getting attention factor, whatever those choices, did that mean it was like very easy for you to communicate about it with your kids? Like, was it something you communicated? And I'm now hearing myself and I'm like, is there a layer of shame here? Am I putting shame there? I don't know. Cause I don't mean to.
- [54:20]
Cindy Crawford
Funny because like, it'd be a very good question for my kids because I didn't have a conversation with them about it. I did stop doing nudes once. I had really, I think after I got, I did Playboy right before we got married and I don't really think I've done anything nude again. And I'd been asked afterwards, but I definitely thought about, yeah, I don't know if my 9 year old kid son wants to get like teased by his friends like that. And again, that was even before the Internet and crazy. So. But there were nude pictures of me in our house that I never explained to my kids. And I once in a while, like, my. One of my kids will make a comment like, well, we just thought it was normal that your mom, you know, so that would actually be a better question for them because to me it was normal.
- [55:09]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, and there's still.
- [55:10]
Cindy Crawford
Look there.
- [55:11]
Monica Lewinsky
There are like naked families. We were not a naked family.
- [55:14]
Cindy Crawford
No, we are not a naked family.
- [55:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, so I mean, it was sort.
- [55:16]
Cindy Crawford
Of any pict I had, they were like, there's a famous picture of me, Christy, Naomi, Linda and Tatiana, all like, Herb shot it.
- [55:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right. You're gonna see anything.
- [55:27]
Cindy Crawford
Yes, it was like that photograph. It wasn't like, hey, here's mom in all her glory. Yeah, yeah, no, we didn't have those pictures out, but I'm sure, look, I'm sure my kids are traumatized. Like every kid is.
- [55:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, so the last question I ask everybody is, what is something that you're working on reclaiming and right now? And it could be a part of your identity or a place or a thing or.
- [55:56]
Cindy Crawford
Yes, well, I've seen your podcast, so I kind of was expecting this question. And the thing that came to mind was really like, I think one of the answers is my couple dumb with my husband. Huh. Because as much as I always wanted kids and I love having kids and I wouldn't change it for the world, and my husband feels the same way. And we're always parents, but it's like they are launched. They are living in their own homes. And we have like, we're.
- [56:29]
Monica Lewinsky
You still like each other?
- [56:30]
Cindy Crawford
We do still like each other. But it's like. And we, and we did consciously work on our marriage. Like, we always made sure we had time. Like, we would still do trips without the kids. Like, you know, Cause we were like, we really feel like this is important to invest in the relationship. But like, now we actually have time, you know, like, for instance, we got a place in Miami, which is not somewhere that we spent time together or as a family. And you know, I actually we, you know, we live in Malibu and our house is very far out. And especially since the fires, getting anywhere is just like a choreography. Yeah. Because traffic is going around or you're trying to get down pch.
- [57:10]
Monica Lewinsky
And also sort of, I imagine depressed Like, I went on PCH for the first time this last weekend, and my heart was so broken. And so I would imagine that there's the stress of all the traffic and the longer. But also, who wants to be reminded of the have your trauma poked every day?
- [57:32]
Cindy Crawford
So the thing that I'm liking about Miami is we're just more social there because everything's close. Like, we consciously and, you know, Malibu can be like a small town, right? And we consciously moved out there and let our kids. We wanted them in public school and we wanted, like, this smaller community, and that was great. But now that we don't have small kids and like, I'm not working every day and he's not going into the office every day, sometimes at the end of the day, we're like, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, you know, what are we gonna do? Whereas in Miami, we have a ton of friends. They're kind of at the same stage in life that we are. So we're finding, like, a different rhythm of life now that's just different. And we have time for it, and we're really enjoying that. So I think. I think that it's kind of like reclaiming coupledom. Yeah.
- [58:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [58:18]
Cindy Crawford
That's so good. It's fun.
- [58:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Thank you so much for your time. This was so lovely. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Snow. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.