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- [00:00]
Deeyah Khan
He was the leader of the largest and oldest neo Nazi organization in the US Called the National Socialist Movement, the nsm. And I remember waiting there for him, and then suddenly I start realizing, what if they've got weapons? And what if they come just beat us and take our cameras? And I open the door and it's just him, and he's wearing his kind of uniform thing. And it was kind of awkward and tense. So we talked for two hours, three hours, for five hours after, we're still talking. And then at the end of that, I said, you know, why are you still talking to me? And he said, well, I've never been asked some of the questions that you've asked. Support is available 247 with VRBoCare.
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Host
We're here day or night, ready whenever you need help.
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Deeyah Khan
Because a great trip starts with the right support. Dia. I'm.
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Host
I'm so thrilled to welcome you to reclaiming.
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Deeyah Khan
Thank you.
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Host
You are our first me, Peabody, BAFTA winner, documentarian, something like that. Whichever order it goes in. You know what I mean?
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Deeyah Khan
It's wonderful to be here.
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Host
So. And I was thinking, okay, now you correct me if I'm wrong. I think we met. I think it was 2015. I know we in 2015. Because it was right before I gave my TED Talk.
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Deeyah Khan
Correct.
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Host
And I went from Norway to Vancouver to do my talk. And it was either some conference or some speaking thing. And I just. All I remembered was it was we were sort of on a little group. Yes, exactly.
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Deeyah Khan
From the airport.
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Host
From the airport with the most psychotic bus driver ever.
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Deeyah Khan
Yes.
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Host
I mean, we on really steep in bad weather.
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Deeyah Khan
Frightening. Yes.
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Host
And he was passing car.
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Deeyah Khan
Literally.
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Host
I think it was. We all thought we were gonna die. 100%. I was like, oh, this is how it goes crazy. Yeah, it was. And we were in a big bus. It was a great group.
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Deeyah Khan
It was a lovely group.
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Host
I don't remember everybody. I remember faces. But I just remembered how I remember you the most. And I remember you the most. I mean, I was just in the nascent stages of reclaiming my narrative.
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Deeyah Khan
I know.
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Host
I mean, no idea what was gonna happen.
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Deeyah Khan
No, it was so inspiring because you were saying what you were gonna speak about. And I remember thinking about how you were. How you were framing it and how it was bullying and how incredibly dehumanizing it was. And how you, through this talk, were taking all the. Taking all of it, all the power and the agency back, and it was your voice finally. Cause, you know. Cause none of us had ever heard you in that way without any filters of Anybody else's interpretation or anyone else's definition of what it may or may not have been. And I was so impressed, and I was so moved and just really impressed.
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Host
Oh, thanks, Dia. I mean, I felt this.
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Deeyah Khan
You're a big hero. Truly.
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Host
That is a big compliment coming from you. I was so impressed by what you were talking about, and I don't even
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Deeyah Khan
remember what I was talking about. Well, I think you. I remember you. I just remember being there, and then you. That's it.
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Host
But I think you had also already won your Emmy for a Love Story, Right? And so I. I think you had already.
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Deeyah Khan
Maybe that's why I was there talking about the maybe.
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Host
And I was just. I was so impressed to hear. And it was so much of why I was happy you were able to say yes to. Come on. Is because your work is just so. It was important then. It's more important now, and. And it really looks at. How do we reclaim humanity in today's world?
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Deeyah Khan
In ourselves.
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Host
Yeah, in ourselves, in other people, in our world. And before we sort of get into your backstory and how you became this extraordinary woman, I just. There was this quote of yours that I felt really just kind of represents so much of you and your work, so I'm just gonna read it. And it was. It's, to me, the level of humiliation and shame that people who believe in violence feel. If you can introduce dignity as the opposite of humiliation, something happens in people, and I think the desire for violence doesn't entirely disappear, but it becomes a less viable option because instead, there's room for dialogue and there is room for disagreement.
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Deeyah Khan
I said that.
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Host
Yes, you did. Yes, you did.
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Deeyah Khan
No, I mean, dignity is the antidote. You know, I think all violence is born from humiliation. All violence, whether it is Putin or it is the bully in the school ground, it is that sense of feeling like you've been shamed, you've lost something. You've been, in many cases, a sense of emasculation, a loss of power, a loss of status and position. And I think that loss is so profound, it's so deeply felt by whoever is in that that I think the only thing that then returns that person to any kind of sort of center is dignity. That's the only. At least that I've seen, only thing that can match the intensity, profound intensity of shame and humiliation. And when I say things like that, you know, some people think that, oh, well, you know, are you trying to justify it or oversimplify it or somehow say that, well, therefore, it's okay. That's not the point. The point for me, when understanding violence or trying to understand people who use violence is not to excuse it or diminish it and the consequences of it, but it's to try to get to the human part of why some people choose that. Because violence is a choice. Yeah. Cause if we don't understand it, we can't stop it.
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Host
Yeah. But I think too, just to set the stage, you know, your incredible work in. It's four documentaries you've done now. Or is it five?
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Deeyah Khan
No, I've done, I don't know, seven or eight. Oh, gosh, no, no, no. Yeah. Wow.
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Host
All right. Well, four or five are the ones that have come to my.
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Deeyah Khan
Well, the American ones. Yeah. Cause I've done several American ones.
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Host
Right, right. So white. Right.
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Deeyah Khan
Y. The one about abortion, militias, domestic violence, the veterans. Five. Just in America.
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Host
Yeah, just.
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Deeyah Khan
And then I've done three in the
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Host
UK and then Banaz, A Love Story was about honor killings.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah. And then jihad and then Islam's non believers.
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Host
And what you do in exploring all these different groups is you sit down and have conversations face to face. And it is so brave and so extraordinary. And I kind of can't wait. I was like, oh, I want to go there first. But I also. I think you have such an interesting backstory that really also complements what you're doing now and I think brings another layer to it. But just right. That you were born in Norway to Pakistani father and Afghan mother and so experienced, you know, the both. It was like. I think the phrase you've used is a foot in both worlds.
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Deeyah Khan
Is that it? Yeah. And sort of feeling like not enough in either one. You know, I would say in terms of my. Everything that led me to do the kind of work that I do today, you know, I come from between many cultures. I grew up very sensitized to the fact that differences really have a big impact on people. Our differences, whatever the differences are, whether it is being a girl, whether it is being a person of color, whether it is coming from this part of town or that part of town, whether. Whether it's, you know, having. Coming from a financially stable or, you know, not a particularly stable family, like all of those differences really matter and set the stage for what you can and cannot do. Yeah. I mean, I always used to say that, you know, I grew up in the kind of land of the blonde and blue eyed people in Norway and was this kind of dark skin, dark, tall, weird girl and just always felt just not quite enough, you know, And I feel like I Always try to contort myself to fit in and to be enough and to be accepted. And when I say that, you know, in my parents culture, you know, I was very clearly told because you're a girl, because, you know, you growing up, where you're growing up, you're not quite Pakistani enough, you're not quite Muslim enough, you're not quite this or that enough. And similarly, you know, in the country that I was growing up with, you know, I felt very early on I was, you know, experienced a lot of racism, was made to feel like I wasn't really enough.
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Host
Right.
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Deeyah Khan
I wasn't Norwegian enough. I wasn't worthy enough of kind of being included.
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Host
So then are you saying that it was the sort of. The bullying and criticism came from all different circles.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah. For all the different layers of who I was, all my kind of different identities, if we want to call it that, were all being attacked. They're all being kind of diminished and degraded and underestimated by different groups of people. From a really young age, I mean, I remember being spat at by adult like white guys and been told to, you know, buck off back home where I came from, you know. So I had that to people from my parents culture who also didn't accept me and thought I was too kind of out there, too westernized and was making their daughters think that they could do whatever they wanted to do. So I was really aware of differences.
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Host
Well, I think you talked somewhere about from those experiences that it gave you what you called your childhood sense superpower,
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Deeyah Khan
which was, well, I, well understanding. So when I was much younger, being very different, I thought was a superpower. And the reason I thought it was a superpower was I could understand Norwegian people and relate to their experiences because I could feel and empathize and you know, was a part of it and lived it so I could understand it. I could sit with my grandfather who came from a village in Pakistan and be able to empathize and understand and speak the langu and kind of feel the flavor and the soulfulness of what that meant. So I thought, you know, I'm like this weird like translator. I could, you know, help people understand. Like I get, I get this and I get that.
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Host
So you started your. The beginning of your life was in music.
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Deeyah Khan
Music. Yeah.
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Host
It's interesting because you, you know, like if we were playing two truths and a lie, right. And you were to give one of those three being you're a pop star, you were a pop star. You know, people would not meeting you now, knowing your work now would not know. That's one of your truths.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah.
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Host
And I heard you talking about. It was amazing that I think that your dad took you to Pakistan to learn with one of the best who was, you know, ready to kind of dismiss you out of hand. I mean, talk to me about that.
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Deeyah Khan
No. So, okay, so when I was seven years old, my. So there's this TV music competition thing called the Eurovision Song Contest, right? Oh, yes. Okay. Okay. Even.
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Host
I've heard of that.
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Deeyah Khan
Even you have? Okay. Okay. Cause. Okay. And there was some sort of whatever. When I was seven, some sort of song from that that apparently I was singing outside on the playground. My father heard it. He's like, come back, you know, Sing it in front of me. And I did. And then the very next day, he bought me this sort of crappy little Casio keyboard. And he took me by the hand and he walked us, walked me around our little flat at the time. And he had this black bag in his. All my Barbies, all my toys, everything. And he put them all into this black bag. And he said, I want you to wave. And then he went out into the hallway and there was this sort of garbage chute thing in the hallway. And he said, now I want you to wave bye bye. And I was like, I don't gotta do that. Why would I do that? He said, either do it or I'm sending it anyway, so either say goodbye or do it. I was like, I'm not saying bye bye. I don't want. So he threw it away and he said, you're gonna do music. And then he gave me this long lecture and he said, look, you're always gonna be judged based on your gender and your skin color, your ethnicity. Basically, if you go into, like, academia or you go into any kind of normal job, if it's you up against a white girl, the white girl will always be chosen before you. He said there are only two other professions on the face of the earth, according to him. One is sports, one is sort of the arts and entertainment, where if you outwork everybody else, if you just stay in and you work and you work and you work, then eventually you will make it. And he said, and those same barriers that will be in your way in all the other kind of more traditional professions will not be there. Those are the only two professions where you can surpass it. So he loved music, and he kind of had this sort of aborted dream himself of wanting to be like some classical musician, but it was too old, too late for him. So he was like, so that's what you're gonna do. So I'm here by choosing, you're gonna do music, you're gonna be a musician. And I remember hating it, resenting it, hating it, but going, okay, well, this is what he's decided, so this is what I will do. So then he found the best of the best music teachers of North Indian classical and Pakistani classical music in Pakistan. Ustad Fatehli Khan was his name of the Patiala School of Music. You know, and I've kind of, in later life sort of joked about it a little bit that, you know, the kind of culture he comes from. Usually fathers will arrange the marriages, like, you know, they will decide the life partner of their daughter. So he didn't do that, but he kind of chose the other thing that is long lasting, which is your profession. And I didn't have a say. So it wasn't, do you want to? It was never an option. It was, this is what it will be and this is what you will do. And my job was to say I felt was okay, you know, And I mean, my brother talks about it to me now and he's like, you know, you didn't have a childhood, do you know that? And I'm like, really? He's like, yeah, like you've just kind of moved on. But, you know, there's a lot of stuff you've missed out. And now that I have kids of my own, he's like, I'm so happy you have kids because you're now getting to do the stuff you didn't do.
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Host
Right.
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Deeyah Khan
Like, I never got to just dream and imagine I'm gonna be a firefighter. Like, I never, it was never even. It was just here it is. So to get to experience it now through my own children, it gives me a huge sense of compassion for my dad because I know he really, really meant well. Yeah. Like it was not from a bad place. But I also realize and accept that it also did a lot of damage to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But having said that, it's from that damage that I've been able to meet people and sit with people with their brokenness, without judgment and with a sense of compassion for that. Because I see it, I feel it. Our experiences might be very different, but that thing, that feeling of being very lost or feeling very broken, I can relate to that. Right? Yeah.
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Host
Because there was a point where you then left sort of this world of performance.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah.
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Host
Was there a tipping point for you? Something that happened that you said, all right, that's it, enough, I'm no longer gonna be this singer, Sorry, dad, you know, version of that.
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Deeyah Khan
Yes, he was a very. He is. He's still alive. He's a very untraditional, kind of renegade, radical human in his. That I really respect. It's a very radical choice. An unusual choice to choose for a man from a Muslim background to choose for his daughter to become a musician. That's unheard of. You know, you get hung for that in many Muslim countries. As a woman. Yeah, yeah. It's considered an immoral and a shameful and an un Islamic profession to engage in. You know, we had people starting to call our house and we started getting threats and, I mean, we had to change our phone number I don't know how many times.
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Host
My gosh.
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Deeyah Khan
And then it started coming to me from people spitting in my face to people threatening me, to the point where it became so bad I couldn't walk outside without some sort of violent or aggressive incident taking place in Norway.
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Host
I'm so sorry.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah, it's a long time ago, but. Yeah, me too. But things have changed, thankfully. But it was tough. It was very, very tough because here I am, I'm doing this thing, and then I'm getting these types of consequences for something that isn't even my choice.
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Host
Right, right.
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Deeyah Khan
So then I left. Then I left Norway. And I remember really vividly before I moved to London, I went to a post office and there was a girl sitting at the end. She said, is it you? And I was like, oh, no, here it comes. Here comes, like another scolding or something. And she just kind of leans in to the glass and she just goes, I just want to thank you. She said, you know, somebody has to go first. And she said, whoever goes first gets all the shit. And she said, but I want to thank you. And she said, I know it might not matter to you right now, but really, thank you. And I'm a kicking about it. Yeah, I have goosebumps. That meant a lot, but it was so hard.
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Host
How old are you at this point?
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Deeyah Khan
17, 18. Almost 18. And then I got a couple of death threats from the uk and one of them talked about how rivers of blood were going to flow and all the different stuff and how my stomach would be cut so another whore like me cannot be born. Oh, like really ruthless. And at that time, I remember just going, no, I'm not doing this. This is not mine. This is his and I'm not doing this. Your whole identity, this is what he prepared me for. This is everything I'd ever done up until that Point was this. But I had been involved in activism because that was really important to me and was right.
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Host
It was not something that your parents.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah, my father was a really active person or really interested person on human rights issues and political issues. And we had political dissen that would visit our house, and they would have these kind of gatherings and conversations. So politics or activism and art was sort of a combined thing from my childhood. It's one of my earliest childhood memories is sitting on the carpet before I started doing music and just playing and my father and all these other people sitting and drinking tea and smoking cigarettes and talking about the world, talking about American foreign policy, talking about, you know, this and that. And. And I remember there were these. There was one Pakistani female painter was there, and there was a theater actress was there, and they were sitting there smoking. And I remember the men looked really just in awe and were so impressed, and they were just kind of holding court. These women were just brilliant. And some had been in prison. All this kind of amazing, amazing, amazing people who were just very involved in the world and their art was their way to it, basically. So that was a very present also aspect of my life. So I just got to a point after those death threats that I just thought, no, I'm not gonna do this. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I'm not doing this. I'm not taking a bullet for something that's not mine. And I didn't know at the time what to do. So what I started doing was volunteering for different organizations, for women's organizations, for people that worked with young people who were either struggling with mental health or violence or any other kind of challenges. And then slowly, slowly through doing that, I started feeling really frustrated and thinking, I'm not doing enough. I have to do more. And I thought, okay, well, what do I do? I mean, I'm not an academic, I'm not a journalist. I'm not any of those things. I'm not a politician. So what do I do? And I was like, well, I do have a creative skill set, and I've been trained in creative work and artistic work since I was a baby. And storytelling. Yeah. And I thought, okay, well, is the correct language music? And I thought, well, no, it's not quite the right. Even though music is incredibly powerful. And I thought, okay, well, so, yeah, so documentary filmmaking. Yeah. And really the thought process was as simple as that. I remember going to one of my music colleagues at the time who owned a recording studio in Atlanta, and I had worked with in the past. And I was like, yeah, so I want to make this film and I want to do documentary. And I was like, how hard can it? But you know, I don't have any money right now. And he's like, yeah, we can figure it out. I was, okay. And I remember, I mean truly, I mean, I bought this Sony camera, I remember at the time. And I would watch like tutorials on YouTube. So it was completely self taught. And that was the Banaz film. It took me four years. Wow. Because I was like, I'm gonna tell her story. I wanted to explore so called honor killings. And the reason I wanted to do that is that that's the most extreme consequence of when we don't understand and when we choose systems and cultures over the well being of individuals and the dreams and the aspirations of our young people. So I started looking into different stories and then I came across Banaz's story, which was a very well known story. It was not like an obscure thing that I dug out. It was a very, very well known story. It was a huge case at the time. And I met with Caroline Good, which was the police officer who investigated Banaz's murder. So Banaz was basically, she was a young Kurdish, Iraqi, Kurdish girl who grew up in South London. She was put into a very violent marriage that the parents chose. I mean, they didn't choose the violence, but they chose the man that she was married to. She tried to leave and the family and the parents said, you have to go back and you have to try harder to be a better wife. Maybe it's you, so you need to go back and try harder. And she did and she tried and she tried and then eventually couldn't do it anymore. So she left. And in the process of rebuilding her life, she fell in love with somebody that she chose. The family and the community found out they saw her kissing him in front of a tube station in London, in South London. Somebody saw that and then reported that back to the community and said, she's bringing shame and dishonor on the whole family by behaving in this way. So she needs to be done away with. So the plan was made to murder her, basically. But before she was killed, she was threatened, she was followed, and she had gone to the police, the Metropolitan Police in London, five times asking for help, even telling them who she thought might harm her. And nobody believed her. Nobody believed her. And then eventually she was killed. She was found naked, buried in a suitcase that was buried six feet under an abandoned house in Birmingham. And no family, Nobody came looking for her or kept pushing the police for justice for this girl. So the only people that fought for her was that boyfriend. It was women's rights activists in this country. And the phone call of that case, once she had already been murdered, went to Caroline Good. Caroline Good picks up the phone, gets the case. There were five people. There were two people that had escaped and gone to Iraq. Caroline Goode. And then there were three people here. There was the father, the uncle and another relative. She managed to get them. So she. And she could have patted herself on the back and gone, yes, I got the three killers in the uk, I'm done. But she went to Iraq and she pulled out those guys and secured the first ever extradition that's ever happened here. And she got them back and worked with lots of women there. Anyway, she did that and brought justice. When I interviewed Caroline, just did a research interview, just with a camera, and she gave me this kind of wooden, very kind of police woman type interview. And then I turn off the camera and I said, but, Caroline, you know, why did you go above and beyond in the way that you did for Banaz? You didn't have to. You could have. Nobody was pushing for it. You could have just said, I got the three. Fine. Case closed, we're happy now. And just under her breath she murmurs. And I said, so why did you do it? And so she murmurs and she says, because I love her. And I just went, how can you love someone you've never met? You don't know. She's nothing like you. And she said, everyone should be loved, everyone deserves to be loved. And she said, and Banaz should have been loved. And she said, the people that should have loved her didn't. So I do. And she said, and I still do. And I remember in that moment going, this is the film I want to make, this is the story I'm going to tell. And because at the time, a lot of my friends were like, oh, did you choose Banaza's story because it's extra brutal? And I said, no, they're all very, very brutal. The reason I chose her is because in hers, it's both the problem and the failures of all of us that allowed for this to happen to Bonaz. But it also contains within it the solution, which is Caroline and Deanna and Bonaz's own sister and all these people that fought for justice for Bonaz, that cared about her even when no one else did, and the love. So it was a love story on multiple levels. So that was the first film took me four years. I didn't have money, so I would keep going back and doing some music, selling it, and then paying for it for parts of it. And then somebody said, oh, you should submit it to this film festival. And I didn't. And they did. And their ITV came and they were like, yeah, we wanna buy this. And I was like, well, you cannot have it cause you're gonna destroy it. And they're like, no, no, no. But we do need it re edited because we need it to fit our slot. And as I said, see, you're gonna destroy it. This story's already been told before and it's been told in a horrible way. So I don't want to. They're like, no, you can do it. You edit it and then give it to us. And so we did. They submitted it to the Peabody's and the Emmys. I had no idea. Yeah, I mean, my brother and I. I couldn't even afford to go to the Emmys because, I mean, I couldn't afford to go. So a Norwegian newspaper. My brothers were very well known in Norway. Okay. So the Norwegian paper said we can go, like, do like this brother and sister trip to New York. And then we're, you know. And so we'll pay for the trip. I was like, okay, great, great. I was like, will you pay for a hotel? They're like, yeah, we'll pay for this kind of. Yeah, a little bit. You just have to share the room. I was like, it's fine. We did. And then they even came to the Emmys and they're like, yeah, you know you're not gonna win, but you know, if you win, we'll meet you hereafter. And I was like, yeah, yeah, whatever. And we're sitting and they play a clip of Banaz talking herself about what she went through in her marriage. And I got just so emotional and so sad and so. But also so proud that her voice was being heard in a room like that filled with people like that. And then the next thing I remember is my brother pushing me and yelling. And I ducked. I was like. A bomb went off. What happened? And he's like, get up, get up. Oh, my God, get the fuck up. And I just went, oh, jeez. He's like. And he's pushing. He's like, yeah. And people are standing and clapping.
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Host
He's like, you hear your name?
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah. And I didn't hear it. I didn't hear any of it. I'm just getting all. I'm just weepy. Cause I'm seeing her and it's just in a whole different thing. And he's like, get up. And so I'm just fumbling, stumbling, hugging everybody, hugging some camera person. I have no idea what happened. And then they pushed me off to the thing, go take hold the thing and take a photo. And I was like, oh, I have no idea. And it was just, yeah.
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Host
Wow. Yeah, it's incredible. It is incredible.
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Deeyah Khan
I mean, I still have a hard time kind of going, wow. You know, suddenly you're fumbling around with an Emmy in your hand going, right. And with your first film.
- [29:02]
Host
Your first film.
- [29:06]
C
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- [30:11]
Host
How did you then pivot into documentaries where you are sitting down with extremists, jihadists. All the ists.
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Deeyah Khan
Yes. All the.
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Host
Is in person.
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Deeyah Khan
Yeah. I mean, well, so what that film did is that then that made it possible for me to do more.
- [30:33]
Host
Right, right, of course.
- [30:35]
Deeyah Khan
Yeah. So this was in 2013, was when ISIS, the whole. Every single news thing you would look at, it was about ISIS and foreign fighters and Muslim kids going to Syria. What are we gonna do? And I remember feeling so. So put off by the coverage. None of it gave me any kind of sense of, well, why? What's really going on? Why would somebody born and raised in these countries like me want to go to a foreign battlefield and lay down their lives? Like, it doesn't make any sense. None of this coverage makes any sense other than just the drama and the kind of. The shock and awe of it, which is what ISIS wanted it to be covered. Like. I was left just wanting to know more. So I set off to do it. Myself, and again, I didn't do it with a broadcast or anything like that because I didn't want any restrictions and I didn't want any preconceived ideas of this is how it should be done. And of course, I had been very afraid of men like that myself. Yeah, yeah. So this was the. The jihadi film was the first time I sort of sat down and faced my own stuff.
- [31:43]
Host
What do you mean when you say your own stuff?
- [31:44]
Deeyah Khan
My own stuff. Not quite jihadis, but people who sit on that same st spectrum are the types of people who threatened me in no way.
- [31:54]
Host
So what you're saying is it's the first time you kind of confronted people
- [31:57]
Deeyah Khan
that I was afraid of.
- [31:58]
Host
Right, right.
- [32:00]
Deeyah Khan
Yeah. Banaz is different. I can see myself in Banaz. Yeah. But with these guys, I don't see myself in them at all. Not only do I not see myself in them, I'm afraid of them. So I decided if I want to get more answers, I do have to go sit with them because none of the information available to me was satisfactory at all. But where did.
- [32:21]
Host
In between being. I'm amazed because in between being unsatisfied with what you're being presented in the news and actually sitting down and sitting down with people that you're terrified of is an enormous river of bravery. How did you cross that?
- [32:43]
Deeyah Khan
Well, to me, to decide no longer to be afraid then means challenging my own prejudices, challenging my own stuff, my own restrictions, my own biases and my own fears, and having. Being willing to sit in the discomfort of whatever it is that I'm trying to face. I do documentary films. Not. I chose it not because I wanted to be a filmmaker, which a lot of filmmaker friends of mine feel a bit insulted when I say that, and it's not intended that way. I make films from the point of view of an activist. It gives me the language or the space, the elbow room to explore what I'm trying to understand. Trying to understand some of the biggest challenges that we as individuals and as societies face. And the reason I want to try to understand it is because I'm interested in figuring out, well, so where are the cracks, then? Where are the possibilities of something different? Where are the solutions?
- [33:46]
Host
Right.
- [33:46]
Deeyah Khan
So I'm not interested in the horror story.
- [33:49]
Host
You're looking hate and violence and dehumanization in the face.
- [33:55]
Deeyah Khan
Yes. Yes.
- [33:56]
Host
And having a conversation.
- [33:58]
Deeyah Khan
Yes.
- [33:58]
Host
Can you talk to me a little about. You went to Charlottesville.
- [34:03]
Deeyah Khan
Yeah.
- [34:04]
Host
So having had the experience in Charlottesville, if you put your lens on, what's Happening in America now. What do you see?
- [34:17]
Deeyah Khan
I decided to do a film about white supremacists in the US Because I started getting a lot of death threats from the U.S. actually. You're welcome. Yeah. And again, you know, the police. I was actually editing a different film in London. Cause I'd done an interview with the BBC and that caused a lot. It ended up on several of the racist websites in the U.S. actually, that Dylann Roof and a lot of those people used to frequent. And they started sending out a lot of their people to. They were like, you know, scare her. Who does she think she is? Cause I was defending multicultural society and that the future is diverse and that it's gonna be people that look like me and look like you. And that we have to find a way to make that work, whether people like that or not. And the BBC were like, look, we're getting lots of death threats, and it's very, very dark, and you need to take it seriously. And I. Look, I've been through this before. This is. You know. And I actually laughed it off. So, you know, to me, it's just the icon looks different, the flag is different, but the threat is the same. It's all sexual violence. It's all rape, it's all. Blood's gonna flow, it's all gonna hang you. We're all gonna this and that. So I was like, okay, fine. And they said, no, you need to. We're sending the police. And the police said, you know, if you're in a room with windows, you need to get away. You need to go into a different room. Anyway, I did. And then they came and they explained all the stuff I needed to do or not to do. And they're like, you know, you probably lay low for a little while and something. And I remember that night, and they gave me this alarm thing as well. And I remember that night thinking, okay, so this is designed to scare me. And so here comes that thing again of, am I going to listen to my own heart, or am I going to do what I'm supposed to do? Or people say I'm supposed to do? And I thought, well, I'm going to try to see if I can find people like that and if they're willing to sit with me and if it's possible for me to see their humanity and is it possible for them to see mine? Is it possible for us to connect as human beings or just listen to each other not agree? We're never gonna agree. And so I started reaching out to different groups and different People in the US actually. And of course, most of them either didn't respond or declined. And one responded initially, which was the. Jeff Scoop is his name. And he was the leader of the largest and oldest neo Nazi organization in the US called the National Socialist Movement, the ns. And so we get there, and it's myself and just one colleague, no security or anything like that. And I remember waiting there for him and then going, okay, so. And then suddenly I start realizing, oh, my goodness, what if he's got people with him? What if he's, you know, I'm in the US Now. What if they've got weapons? What if they. You know, what if. What if. What if. And what if they come just beat us and take our cameras? And then the door knocks and I go, oh, my goodness. And I open the door, and it's just him, and he's wearing his kind of uniform thing or whatever they wear. And he comes in, and it was kind of awkward and tense, and then we kind of both got into it. And then we talked for an hour. We talked for two hours, three hours, for five hours after, we're still talking. And then at the end of that, he's like, look, I'm really tired right now, but why don't. And I was like, well, just hold on a second. I said, you know, why did you. Why are you still talking to me? You know? You said, I just get one hour, and then I need to disappear. And he said, well, I've never been asked some of the questions that you've asked. And he said, I will work till my last breath against the vision of the world that you stand for and that you believe in. He said, but I respect that you mean what you say. And he said, I respect the fact that you're very sincere and that you believe in something. Yeah, yeah. And he said. And so I would like to continue the conversation because I find it interesting. You know, I find some of the questions really interesting, and I've never been asked some of them. And he said, so we're going to this thing in Charlottesville. It's called the Unite the Right Rally. And, you know, so why don't we continue. Why don't you join us there and, you know, we'll continue and you can do some filming and something, and we'll just, you know, maybe. Maybe I can, you know, maybe some of the other guys will agree to speak to you as well. And I was like, yes, yes. I don't care what it is. Yes, yes. And a few weeks before that, I had Been to Charlottesville and there was like a KKK rally there. And that KKK rally was like 12, 14 kind of people with some placards and some flags and some of them were toothless. And so in my head I was like, it'll be that, yeah, I'm coming, no problem. And of course I go there. And it was completely different. And I mean, but Jeff, he didn't fly. He had some sort of thing against flying. So he was driving and I was like, can I, you know, is it okay if I ride with you? Can I film with you? And he's like, yes. I actually sat with him in the car for nine hours to Virginia. And I remember being just horrified because I was pregnant and nobody knew I was pregnant. I know. And I remember just going, what if he figures it out? Because, you know, I have to pee all the time. Yeah. And thankfully he had to pee more often than me. So it worked out. It actually worked out. But that was very, very uncomfortable because he had a couple of people in the car that were very, very uncomfortable with the fact that I was there. And they were incredibly unpleasant. Incredibly unpleasant.
- [39:34]
Host
What does that look like?
- [39:38]
Deeyah Khan
Intimidating. Like they were constantly being intimidating. Constantly being. Trying to rile him up against me. Oh, she's still filming you. She said she turned off the camera and I was constantly having to go, no, look, it's off. So constantly kind of trying to provoke something. And then, you know, and then the day of the actual thing, I went, I filmed with the neo Nazis.
- [40:06]
Host
Oh, my gosh.
- [40:07]
Deeyah Khan
At the actual whole thing and gathered with them at the beginning of their, you know, when they all marched in with all these different. And of course, as they all gathered in this parking lot before, I just remember going, oh, my goodness, this is not like five toothless guys. This is something else. And there, there were people walking up to me. Who the fuck are you? What are you doing here? And I was like, he said, it's okay. Wow. You know, and I'm wearing these huge baggy clothes, trying not to show anybody that I was pregnant. And then we get there and I remember walking with them just before the violence started breaking out. And some of the people in front of me were laughing and making jokes and talking about how one of their biggest fantasies was, you know, finding a shit skinned woman is what they said, and kicking her in, pregnant one and kicking her and beating her so much that she would just have an abortion there. And then. Oh, my God. And I'm walking and I remember just going, oh, my goodness. And it was Blistering hot in Virginia. And I'm wearing, like, wool sweaters and scarves and trying to hide the. And then after that, it was. Then all the violence started happening. And I was just horrified because the police were standing on the. Around all the sides and wouldn't do anything. So they just. You know, they just stood there holding by the barricades and just let it happen. The only thing they would say, oh, okay, now you can't do the speeches. I mean, so the rally never actually happened because it turned so violent. And Heather Hare, as we know, she lost her life there, too. And they were laughing. They were laughing and making jokes about it. And I remember even as they were gathering, I stood on the side and one of the guys was like, just look to the ground. Just don't look up. Just don't look up. And I was going, oh, shit. Okay, what is it? And these huge guys with massive tattoos on their heads and faces and stuff walk past. And I can see just feet. Because he's like, don't look up. Whatever you do, don't look up at them. And I see the feet stopping, and the feet stop. And then they say something to somebody else, and then they continue walking. And I'm like, okay, can I look? And he's like, yeah, you can look. And he's like, yeah, I saw them beat somebody till his eye fell out. So I just don't want. So don't look at. And I was. And I was like, why did they do this? Well. Cause he looked at him funny. So he's like, so don't look up. Like, don't. Because I was the only person who looks like this. And they like, just. This was a journalist. It was like a blonde journalist guy. He's like, you know, just be very careful. But what did happen is. So after Charlotte's or after the kind of the daytime, the event thing that they were trying to do, and then that. Not really happening, then Brian, who was from the same group that Jeff was in, said to me, everybody's gathering. All the groups are gathering at this compound in the mountains of Virginia. And, you know, you can come. You know, they've. I've called them so and so. And, you know, you can come and you can film. And I was like, okay, great. You know, maybe I can talk to more people. So I stuck in there as much as they would allow me to. Some of them didn't. Some of them didn't want to spend that much time, and some of them never wanted to sit with me by themselves. They Always wanted to have an audience, for example. But you know, but with Brian, when we got to this compound, that is where I thought that I was gonna not make it. Because as soon as we got there, people separated myself and my colleague and started yelling and shouting at us. And Brian disappeared. And I remember this one guy, I mean, and they all had. Some of them had their tops off and they had the bruises on their bodies from the fights earlier. And some were really drunk and had alcohol, had bottles of beers in their hands. And weapons, I always say it's like weapons that belong on a battlefield. I've never seen weapons like that. And they were screaming and shouting at me and to keep my hands up. And I remember one of the guys blowing cigarette smoke in my face and came like this close and he goes, are you fucking pregnant? And I said, no, I'm not. And I remember thinking, and I looked at my phone and it says, no signal. And I remember thinking, this is where it's gonna end. Wow, this is, you know, And I wasn't even part of it wasn't just, I'm gonna die here. Part of it was, this is where I'm gonna die, but no one's gonna find me. Cause I hadn't told my colleagues, hadn't told my family, I hadn't told anyone what I was doing. And that that's where I was, that I, I said yes to this thing. But then Brian came back and he negotiated for us to be allowed to leave. So we left. Wow. Cause you were talking about how do they react in person. Brian ended up. When I was editing the film, Brian ended up leaving the whole movement that he'd been in for decades. And part of the reason he left is because he saw me treated like that that day. Interesting. And he couldn't compute. It didn't make sense to him that this thing that he's a part of was treating me like that, who by that point, he started feeling like we were friends. And he'd started feeling like I was a half decent person. You know, nobody's born like that. So if the starting point pretty much is the same for most of us, something happens along the way that defines the course of our lives.
- [45:34]
Host
Right.
- [45:34]
Deeyah Khan
So what is that life story that has brought him or her to that point and me to this point? And so that's what happened for me when I did the jihadi film is I would sit with these guys. It was so hard to get any of them to agree. One of the guys who barely agreed, I remember he's become a really good friend now, actually. But I remember one of the first conversations I had with him on the phone. He's like, so why should I speak to you? He's like, I've Googled you. And, you know, you're a feminist. You're this. You're this. You know, you're clearly on the opposite spectrum of me, and you're just gonna make me look bad, and you're just gonna paint me as a whatever and something, and so why should I bother even talking to you? And I said, the reason you should bother talking to me is exactly because I'm on the other side of you. And I said, and I will tell you one thing, and this is really hard for me, but I have made a commitment, and I will make a commitment to you. I've made it to myself, and I will make it to you. I. I will, as much as possible, leave my baggage at the door. I'm not gonna pretend I love guys like you. I don't. Or that I agree with you or anything, but I'm willing to listen. And I'm willing to really, really listen. This is not about painting you in any way. This is just about listening to you. And then if you find it in your heart, maybe you listen to me, but that's not a necessity. I'm coming to listen to you. And anyway, eventually he agreed. And I remember starting to sit with some of the guys and then hearing about their life experiences, of feeling like they didn't belong and they weren't enough and experiencing racism and feeling like the expectations from their communities, they would never measure up to those. And I just remember sitting there going, oh, my goodness. Okay. Yeah, me too. Yeah, okay, me too. Me too. And I did not expect that. I didn't expect to recognize or hear my experiences in their life stories, but I was always left with the feeling of okay. And I always say this, that, you know, I had all of the same experiences, a lot of the same experiences, and I'm a girl, so I had all those types of things as, well, kind of thrown at me. So why is it that I picked up up a camera and he chooses to pick up a gun? What's the difference? Like, why would we choose such radically different ways of dealing with the same type of experiences? And that bothered me for many years. And eventually I actually did, and I actually spoke with some of the guys again since then. And where I landed is realizing that who shows up in your life when you're at your most vulnerable and at your most broken and at your most Lost. And, you know, yeah, it really matters. That's the defining point of who goes this way and who goes that way. So for me, I had my mother, I've had mentors, I've had some extraordinary women who wish me well, who love me, and who really wish the best for me, who were with me when I really needed it the most. And so I was loved, I was supported, I was encouraged. And I get to pick up a camera for him. A recruiter showed up who showed him love, who showed him support, who showed him interest, who talked to him about girlfriends, who talked about him with him, about all his insecurities and all of his fears, and said, you know what? You belong with us. Yeah, you're a part of us. We'll protect you, we'll look after you. We'll do this, we'll do that. But took all of those things that we're all looking for, right? That acceptance that we're all looking for, and then turning that into a weapon. Weaponizing that and turning that and manipulating that into violence and their own political gain.
- [49:36]
Host
I have a question because I've been thinking and trying to write about, actually, but thinking about grooming so much, you know, with the Epstein files and everything that's happened in that story.
- [49:48]
Deeyah Khan
Yes.
- [49:50]
Host
So when you hear that, like this recruiter, do you think that was a form of grooming?
- [49:57]
Deeyah Khan
It is.
- [49:57]
Host
It's a form of grooming.
- [49:58]
Deeyah Khan
Absolutely.
- [49:59]
Host
So there's not a. There's not a sense of like, oh, actually, we do care about you and you are gonna come. It is just. It's a. It's. It's a manipulation to get what they want.
- [50:09]
Deeyah Khan
It's. Yes, it is a manipulation, and it's very, very cynical because they know what these young people are looking for. And when I film with the neo Nazis, some of them told me the same thing. Very sort of point blank. They're like, look, one of the guys said, we sometimes will hang out around schools and we'll look for the little kid. We'll look for the one being bullied. We'll look for the one who seems like a bit of an outcast, and we will target him. And I said, well, what do you mean, target him? He said, well, we will embrace him and we will accept him, and we will give him a place so that he feels loved and secure and supported and like he's a part of something greater than himself. Who doesn't want that? Yeah.
- [50:55]
Host
What's so interesting to me about your work is it's giving two people the same ingredients and they make different recipes.
- [51:03]
Deeyah Khan
Yes.
- [51:04]
Host
And that's. That concretizes it for me in a really different way.
- [51:08]
Deeyah Khan
Yeah. If I was to distill down sort of some of the lessons that I've learned just about human behavior and why we do some of the things that we do, I think it's all much simpler and much more complicated in a way than we think that the. I think it all comes down to basic human needs that we all have, which is, you know, feeling like you're seen and you're understood and you're heard and treated like you matter and that someone actually cares about you. Right. Takes an interest and accepts you and wishes you well, or at least expresses that they wish you well. Someone who's on your side. We all look for that. You know, many of the young men, especially young men, because the groups are so filled with men that I met were very idealistic and wanted to do something. And I just remember thinking, if we could just take that and turn it towards something productive and not destructive, be incredible. But, you know, so we all yearn for long for acceptance and belonging and purpose and meaning and love. I do think that we all look for that. And we all look for. We all find ways of meeting those needs. And for those of us who are lucky, we find creative ways, artistic ways, meaningful, useful, productive ways of dealing with all that stuff and processing it and finding a place for it. And then there are lots of people who don't have support systems, who don't have the means or the people in their life or ways and outlets for it. But we all find the answers. It's just whether we find productive answers or destructive answers.
- [53:02]
Host
Right.
- [53:03]
Deeyah Khan
I remember looking at the ISIS thing, the recruiters, and then it was a lot of online recruitment and grooming, I would call it. I think that's a much more appropriate word also. It's what we actually started calling it at one point, rather than radicalization, was there were people on the other end of those screens that were spending hundreds upon hundreds of hours on each child, on each kid, taking an interest in who they are, what they like, what their fears are, what their hopes and dreams are, who they are, who they want to be, who they don't want to be, what they're ashamed of, all of that stuff. They would find out. And then you had like, the UK government or whatever governments that were going, yeah, we're gonna do de radicalization. And. And then they had like some nine to five person sitting there typing some stuff, and then you leave.
- [53:47]
Host
I mean, why do you think? Just. It's so interesting to me. And sad.
- [53:54]
Deeyah Khan
It is sad.
- [53:54]
Host
You know, that in a way, the antidote to all of what you're talking about is in a sense of. I don't know. I know this is the wrong way to say it, but I feel like normal people, not radicalized people. I know it's the wrong way to say it, but I can't think of the right word or people like me that I think about that not embracing the idea or not wanting to do the work of making sure people feel like they've found. I mean, is that it? Is that at the core of. Does that make sense, what I'm asking, you're saying?
- [54:35]
Deeyah Khan
Okay, yeah, I do think it's easier to paint people as monsters and as hopeless and they're just evil. Because if they're just evil, then we don't have to do anything. Doesn't have anything to do with us. They're just like that. They just fell out of the sky with, like, horns on their heads, and they're just disgusting and. Ugh. But that removes any kind of responsibility or possibility of. Of actions that we can take that might actually help or might help prevent it. If we understand that all young people. All people. But let's. Okay, let's say young people, if they're more prone to this, all young people need to feel seen and need to feel like they matter, then we can all do something about that. Right? But there were multiple factors, though. There wasn't just the emotional and the psychological or the human side of it. It's what I'm the most interested in. But there's also the systemic side of it. I mean, there's also, you know, there's oppression, there's racism. There's, you know, there's classism. There's all these other kind of disadvantages or barriers that a lot of young people were up against. So it's just. A lot of young people just don't have an outlet, and nobody's listening to them. And to now, too. I mean, this is not just jihadi kids or white supremacists. A lot of our kids now, I mean, they're being bombarded with the kind of an algorithmic attack of misogyny and, you know, far right content that they have no way of truly processing. Right. And we're just leaving it to. We're just leaving them to it.
- [56:20]
Host
So what do you take from all of this? Because it feels as if, in a
- [56:26]
Deeyah Khan
way,
- [56:28]
Host
is it understanding and listening or is it justice as an act of Radical love.
- [56:41]
Deeyah Khan
I think we're at a place now where division has become so profound that it's impossible to kind of hold onto ourselves, let alone holding onto each other. What I'm landing on more and more is I think that I've always said that, you know, I wish our politicians did this, I wish leader did that. I wish whatever. And I've drawn a line under that. I'm done. If somebody would like to, you know, surprise us, that's great. You know, in a positive way, great. But I've written off any hope there. To me, the hope resides in us, the people. And I think what this moment is calling for is for us to erase the lines and the divisions and the differences between us and realize that we're all in the same fight. I spoke with a Nobel Peace Laureate, her name is Tabakul Carman from Yemen a few months ago. And she said, look, we've been fighting tyrants for a very, very long time. And she said, and now America is fighting their own. And she said, this moment now asks of us to realize that we're actually in the same fight. And just like their movements are cross border movements, ours also need to become that. I think it's time for more solidarity. I think it's time for more dialogue across the divisions as much as we possibly can. And I think Minneapolis has shown the way, too. I mean, I've filmed a lot in Minneapolis actually the last few weeks. No, no, no, no. I mean, I've actually had to leave the U.S. okay. Because of what's going on. I mean, I got a phone call from my immigration lawyer last year. Wow. Because my visa was about to renew, because I've worked there now for eight years on and off. And he basically said that I was about to send in your application. And he said, and I can't do it. Because he said if I do, I'm bringing it to their attention. And he said, because you've made films that are critical of Trump, because you documented his first term, and because you are a Muslim, because you are pro Palestine, because of all the stances that you have taken, you are a perfect person to either deport or to detain or to make some sort of example of. And he said, if you didn't have little kids, I would say take the chance. But he said, because you've got little kids, he said, you, my recommendation is that you leave. And I didn't believe him. So I called lots of friends and other lawyers and other activists as well in the US Asking them to tell me Something different. And every single person. And I even spoke with some military veterans. And then the last straw for me is I spoke with a military general, a retired one in the US And I said, this is what my lawyer says. Tell me he's overreacting. And this was in the summer before they went as nuts as they've gone. And they all, without hesitation said, you have to listen to what he's saying and you have to go. And I said, yeah, but I want to help. I want to. You know, my kids are American. This is really personal to me. And they said, you're more used to us outside than locked up somewhere. And the general, he apologized. He said, I apologize to you on behalf of America. And he said, we're in a really, really bad place right now, but we will figure this out. And he said before right now, he said, you take your babies and you go. You need to leave. And it's. I mean, it was my home. I mean, I had a flat there that I had to sell. And it hurts my heart every single day. But it convinces me even more that we have to be willing to reach across the lines. People on the other end of it aren't willing to do it yet, but we have to start making gestures towards it. Because at some point we have to decide what do we stand for? And if we stand for dignity and if we stand for pluralism and inclusion and rights and justice for all and freedom for all, then we have to extend that also to the people that we dislike, the MAGA people, or whoever it is that is on the other end of people at this point. But we have to try to engage with each other. We have to. Because if there's no dialogue, then there's violence, you know, but we also have to keep our own sanity intact. We also have to take care of ourselves and each other. I think. You know, there's a quote by Alice Walker, which is, we are the ones we've been waiting for. And I think that is the truth now. No one's coming to rescue us. No one's going to save us. It's. We have to look after each other now. We have to be loving towards each other, and we have to make sure that we now make it through this because everything is stacked against us. But I think if we hold onto our hearts and if we hold onto each other, I think really we can. And hope. Hope is like the fuel that we have to keep in us. And also, the other thing that I find really helps me when I start feeling really overwhelmed is they want us to give up. So I think this is an invitation in a way. This moment is an invitation to all of us to do our little part, Whatever that means. I think.
- [62:09]
Host
Dia, I end every podcast asking my guests if there's something that you are currently working on reclaiming. And we use a very elastic definition, so could be anything.
- [62:26]
Deeyah Khan
I try every day to stay true to the promise that I made to myself, which is to be as fully myself as I can every single day and to make decisions from my own heart every single day. And wherever there are structures that don't have space for me, then create the alternative space myself, where there can be room not just for me, but also for others, other people. I'm constantly, every day trying to live by that, but just on a more kind of practical addition to that for me is being a mother now adds a whole nother dimension to everything that I do. And it makes me feel like it's even more urgent that we try to do more. But then also just the practicalities of trying to be a mother and trying to do this kind of crazy work is really hard. I find it really, really hard. And so I'm trying as much as I can to stay intact, you know, and look after myself. I don't think there is a balance, though. Like, I've really tried, and I feel like there is no balance. I feel like one drop, like something will always drop. I feel like in this thing that we as women are asked to do of either work or your children. So I just try as much as I can to look after myself also, which is hard for me. Cause I'm so used to just doing
- [64:07]
Host
things, being out for women in general. I mean, we're getting better.
- [64:12]
Deeyah Khan
So I try to keep my heart intact as much as I can. So I try to stay as much as I can with as much love as I can. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.