A (2:14)

Well, let me properly welcome you to Reclaiming Dylan.

B (2:18)

Thank you. Thank you.

A (2:18)

Yes. I remember that moment. And I was. Because we'd been like social media friends

B (2:23)

for a while, and I've wanted to be on this for a long time.

A (2:26)

I know we've been in Talks to try to make it happen. And now feels like a really perfect time.

B (2:33)

It does.

A (2:34)

You are in a very exciting place. Exciting. Seeming to me you are about to take on Broadway. Take on Broadway, Right. In the musical six, you're gonna play Anne Boleyn.

B (2:47)

Boleyn, a problematic woman who we love very much. We're in a good crowd of women ahead of their time.

A (2:54)

Off with her head.

B (2:55)

I even think, what's so fun funny about, you know, over the last few years, I've been through controversy and all sorts of things on social media and. But I love that we're having this conversation right now because it really feels like I've worked through a lot of that and now I have a better perspective on sharing on some of that. And you're someone that I've looked up to for a really long time. So I think to get to share this with other people feels exciting to me too. And for all our audio listeners out there, I'm wearing sort of a red kind of giving Jackie O pantsuit or a little two piece set. And I woke up this morning, I'm like, what am I gonna wear to, you know, talk to Monica Lewinsky? And I was like, well, I really love red. This feels very like politics. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, but are people gonna think I'm conservative? I literally had the thought, I wanna reclaim red as like a color that I can wear proudly. And that I think looks really good with my skin tone.

A (3:54)

It does.

B (3:55)

Thank you. And then when I was like, I went to listen to an episode of the podcast while I was putting makeup on, and it was reclaiming, you know, the show's called reclaiming. And I was like, well, there we go. I'm reclaiming the red. And we're taking it for. Do you wear red a lot anymore?

A (4:09)

I do. What's funny is ever since I started putting highlights in my hair, I wear it a little less. So when my hair was your color.

B (4:19)

Yes.

A (4:20)

Red is like a perfect.

B (4:21)

Well, it's a contrast. Right.

A (4:22)

With a brunette is so great and so.

B (4:25)

But now the blue looks good on you.

A (4:27)

Thank you. It's funny because when we met at Alan's thing, I just. I walked away and I had this. It was like the word that kept coming up for me was this old lady word of delightful. You were just delightful.

B (4:39)

Oh, my God, thank you.

A (4:40)

There's just like all I did the whole rest of the day, the rest of that week, anybody I could think of, I was like, you should do this with Dylan Mullini.

B (4:48)

Are you serious?

A (4:48)

You should do this.

B (4:49)

Oh, my God. You're like, I need to give you 10%. You're my agent.

A (4:52)

No, no. But I just want good things for you.

B (4:54)

Thank you.

A (4:55)

Well, I wanted to start with all the Broadway stuff.

B (4:57)

Let's go. It's my favorite part.

A (4:59)

I want to hear about the moment you found out you got this part in Six.

B (5:03)

Okay. And.

A (5:05)

And tell me how it's going and how are you feeling?

B (5:07)

How are you? Okay. Yes, yes. All the things. Have you seen Six the Musical?

A (5:10)

I have.

B (5:11)

Oh, my God. I have.

A (5:12)

I have. A couple years ago.

B (5:13)

And did you. You vibed with it?

A (5:15)

Yes.

B (5:15)

Okay. It's 80 minutes long. For anyone who isn't maybe the biggest musical fan, there's no intermission, which is a dream. And I playing Anne Boleyn, which is one of Henry VIII's six wives. And it's set as sort of like a pop concert of, like a girl group. And so each of us has our big star song. Mine's called Don't Lose youe Head. And so it's a very modern retelling with not a ton of historical accuracy, but actually, like, more than you would expect.

A (5:49)

It's Hamiltonesque.

B (5:51)

Yes, yes. Right. And the dance. What I will say is, like, when you watch the show, you don't realize how hard the dancing is. Cause they make it look easy.

A (5:57)

Okay.

B (5:57)

But now that I'm. I have four weeks of rehearsal total. I'm two weeks in.

A (6:01)

Oh, my gosh.

B (6:02)

And it is the hardest dancing I've ever done in my entire life. Cause you're also in heels. Oh, my gosh. In these crazy, you know, giant sort of like plastic costumes. And I'll be, you know, have long blonde hair, which is a wig, thank God. Because when I was blonde in real life, it fried my hair. Okay. But it was such a dream for me because I think growing up, I was obsessed with Broadway. It's all I cared about. And it was almost like the way that people would follow sports. I would follow Broadway shows of like, oh, this person's going into this show now, and this person's taking a leave. And wow. I was just. It was like my hyper fixation as a kid. And I was a performer in San Diego my whole life. And so I think if you had told little me that I would get to play a really incredible woman from history in this girl group, I wouldn't have believed you. And I actually auditioned for the show, like five years ago as a non binary person. They've always been really open to having people of different genders in the show. But it is really a celebration of femininity and womanhood and whatever way that presents itself. And so I had auditioned in 2021, and I remember, like, looking up to God after the final callback because I was up for Anne Boleyn at the time, and this was for the touring production. And I was like, God, if I get this, like, I will be happy and I will never ask for anything ever again. And what's so funny was then when I got the call that I got it this last year around maybe October, I was like, it flashed me back to, have you had a moment where you've asked for something or really wanted something, and then it presents to you, like, years later.

A (7:49)

Yeah.

B (7:50)

And you're in a completely different place. Right.

A (7:52)

You're like, I was kidding back then.

B (7:53)

Well, yeah, I'm not. I'm going to ask for more. But it was this full circle. Like, you never know when something's going to be the right time and when it finally all like. Also, what's crazy about Broadway is so many people have to say yes to you. You've got the casting directors, the directors, the choreographers, the producers.

A (8:10)

Oh, I didn't know that. All of those people have to sign off.

B (8:13)

So many people.

A (8:14)

Interesting.

B (8:15)

And I think, especially because Broadway, I think at this level, it's commercial. And so they're trying to make money off of a show. And so they need to decide if you're a profitable performer and if you can really do eight shows a week. And so that I think, knowing that over the past few years, I had met all of these people that helped get me into this show, like the writers, Toby and Lucy, who are now really good friends. They wrote a song for my day365 live at the Rainbow Room. They wrote a show for my one woman show in New York at the Lortel. So, like, all of these relationships were kind of like popping up over the past few years. And now, you know, I start performing in two weeks and it's February 16th, and I'll be in it for a few months.

A (9:01)

So I'm gonna be back around the 19th. And I'm hoping that they come, please.

B (9:08)

And that's good, because I have a lot of people coming the first night. And I'm like, well, give me a few.

A (9:14)

Okay.

B (9:15)

Give me a few names.

A (9:15)

Can you tell me when?

B (9:16)

No, but that makes me so happy. Cause by the fourth or fifth day, I'll be ready for you. Okay, but have you ever been on Broadway?

A (9:23)

No.

B (9:24)

Would you ever?

A (9:25)

No. I mean, here's the irony. So I loved musical theater growing up. I did a summer program at Buckley and sang Somewhere over the Rainbow and, you know, was like 10 years old in my little purple leotard with my little bud boobies and, you know, the whole thing. And I loved it and did musical theater in high school, but I wasn't very good. And so I did a lot of.

B (9:52)

Did you think that or did somebody tell you that you were.

A (9:54)

Oh, no, the drama teacher told me.

B (9:55)

She was like, babe, you can't sing.

A (9:56)

She was like, you're better. I can sing. And I was like, I can sing. And I sung at some weddings, but. So I was in the Music man and I was Ethel Toffelmaier, the pianola girl. And I remember I had a four poster bed and I had to teach myself how to do bell kicks, holding on to.

B (10:17)

Oh, my God.

A (10:18)

Because Ethel Toffelmaier is a bad dancer, character wise. But who knew? You have to be a good dancer to be a bad dancer on Broadway.

B (10:25)

What did you see? Monica Lewinsky.

A (10:27)

Guess what?

B (10:28)

The Music Man.

A (10:28)

You can see it on YouTube.

B (10:30)

Are you serious? Oh, yeah.

A (10:31)

There are clips. It is. I look like a fucking chicken. It is just. But that's perfect. But that came out in 98. So it was like somebody sold that footage. You know, someone's parent had been the one to, you know, make the video.

B (10:44)

That's crazy.

A (10:46)

And so that ended up in 98. I don't think me singing Somewhere over the Rainbow made it out, but, you

B (10:52)

know, it's never too late.

A (10:54)

Yeah. Although, you know what? I sang that I had a cold, so it was not very good. But on my 45th birthday, I gathered some people for dinner and we went to Club Coming after. And I sang Somewhere over the Rainbow at Club Coming.

B (11:09)

So good place to sing.

A (11:11)

I don't know what came over me. That was very. Not like me. Very. To be so fearless.

B (11:19)

I think it's a good thing.

A (11:21)

So I don't know, but I love to sing and I love musical theater and my whole thing.

B (11:24)

What's your favorite musical?

A (11:25)

Guys and Dolls.

B (11:26)

Oh, that's a good. I would love to play Adelaide one day.

A (11:29)

I see. And in high school, I sang Adelaide's Lament for a talent show.

B (11:33)

Oh, it's so good. And that's a classic.

A (11:35)

Average Unmarried female.

B (11:37)

Yeah, There we go. Okay.

A (11:38)

We got her to sit silly and secure.

B (11:41)

Had you sung on the pod before?

A (11:43)

I don't think so.

B (11:45)

All right.

A (11:46)

There you go.

B (11:47)

It's never too.

A (11:48)

It's the first losing my singing on the podcast Virginity. That's what.

B (11:51)

There you go. Yeah.

A (11:52)

So you were saying you were into musical theater. Okay.

B (11:56)

And I grew up in a really small town outside of San Diego called Alpine. And what I think a lot of people associate, like, California or San Diego to be, like, wildly liberal, but not where I live.

A (12:08)

Oh, really?

B (12:09)

I think the farther away from the beach you get, the more homophobic they get. But I really was in this little kind of country town, and I begged my parents to put me in dance lessons, and they did. I was the only boy in a school of, like, 200 girls dancing. And it was, like, my safe place. And I grew up very Catholic, so I went to Catholic school for most of my life. And it was also kind of tricky because I think as I got older, I did like how the Grinch told Christmas at the Old Globe, which is this really fun musical. And I met all of these adult gay actors who had partners and were living their lives and were really great role models to me. But then I would be told in church or at. We ended up my mom, I was gonna say transition from Catholic to transition from Catholic to Christian, which in some ways she did. But I was, you know, would be at these, like, mega churches with her where the pastor would be like, we cannot let the gays get married. And that was so conflicting. Cause I was like, wait, now I actually know gay people, and they're amazing. And I'd come out to my mom as a girl when I was four years old, okay. And so that was something that I had tucked away. And so I was in kind of a constant back and forth in regards to, like, holding my faith, but also discovering myself and my identity.

A (13:37)

And was that when you say, come out to your mom, was that that you knew you were not in the right body, or was that.

B (13:44)

I. I did say something specifically, like, I think God made a mistake and put a girl into a boy's body. And. And so it. It did feel very specific to, like, my physical self, but it definitely stemmed from just. I obviously had no idea that trans people existed when I was 4. And so it was. I think it was just very conflicting for me to have a thought like that. And I feel really grateful, actually, that my mom told me that many years later that that conversation happened, because I think for me, a lot of years of my life was feeling like I was not in the correct body or in the correct mind and not having, like, all of the answers. The evidence of how I finally did get to be here. But now that I'm here, I would never change it for the world. I could not be happier. And I think that is a testament to Even, like, in the darkest times, there was no part of it that had anything to do with, like, doubt of transition or doubting my identity. It really was just about people's reactions to that, rejections. Yes. It's just fascinating.

A (15:05)

We'll get to the whole reason why. But it's just, you know, I often refer to myself as a social canvas because even though I take things in, it's so much of what people thought about me, think about me, say about me, is. Is really just their own projection.

B (15:21)

Right.

A (15:22)

And so it's.

B (15:22)

Or what they're being said about you, and I think it's just like a

A (15:25)

reflection of the culture at the time, you know? And I think with this. Taking your bow on Broadway, that you were very. Proficient's not the right word. You were talented. You were talented. Right.

B (15:38)

I did Book of Mormon before. Exactly.

A (15:40)

And that was right after you came out of Conservatory.

B (15:42)

Right. So I went to the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music, which is one of, like, the best musical theaters in America, which is random and amazing. And also, it's so cheap for rent in Cincinnati. It was heaven. And I really, like. I put the time and effort into getting really good at something. And then when I started going viral on TikTok, people, like, didn't realize. Well, first of all, theater kids, theater kid energy isn't really, like, a mainstream thing that a lot of people are used to. And so I think a lot of people didn't fully understand what I was about. Like, I think I was kind of, like, abrasive in some of my videos because they're like, oh, my gosh, how does this person have so much energy? And how are they so animated? And I'm like, babe, that's like every theater kid that I know. And so I think what's so cool about me going back to Broadway is like, it is coming home. It's coming back to something that I've had my entire life, and that has made me feel so supported, but this time in my proper gender, feeling really liberated and feeling like even especially I think playing Anne Boleyn is so crazy. Some of the parallels of, like, what I went through, of being. I'm so happy they don't have beheadings in 2026 right now.

A (17:00)

Well, they're virtual, they're different.

B (17:02)

But for both of our sakes, I would say. And I think that it's crazy when you look back at history. And some of these women that were defined as like deeply problematic or, you know, harlots or whatever it was that they were being labeled, it so often was a really improper villainization. Like Anne Boleyn, now that I've gotten to like, learn more about her story, it's that she had thoughts and she wanted to, you know, learn different skills that most women weren't able to have. She had dreams and desires and wanted to share her opinions. And then it got taken and spun into a narrative that was something very different that a lot of people still associate with her today. And I've been thinking about the Scarlet Letter too even. And I'm starting to where I think my controversy on my sleeve in a way too of like with a little bit more pride than I think there was before. Because I think in the past few years there were so many moments of shame and it felt like people either wanted to villainize me or victimize me. But I think now I'm realizing like, oh, it's not about what those people are projecting, like you've said of putting onto my canvas, but it's like, what does my canvas look like without those projections?

A (18:30)

100%.

B (18:31)

And it's one that I feel really proud of. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. If you're an H Vac technician and a call comes in, Grainger knows that you need a partner that helps you find the right product fast and hassle free. And you know that when the first problem of the day is a clanking blower motor, there's no need to break a sweat. With Grainger's easy to use website and product details, you're confident you'll soon have everything humming right along. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

A (19:31)

Well, take me back a bit because you got this role in the Book of Mormon and then I remember sort of spring of 2020 comes. I was like supposed to go on a second date to see west side Story in New York and it was like Covid hit and Broadway shut down.

B (19:52)

I think theater was one of the first things to go because the Ahmanson in LA is where the Book of Mormon was at the time. And I think, like, live performances were kind of the first things to really get shut down. Cause it's a huge group of people. I actually think a lot of the cast probably had had Covid at that time, and we didn't even know it because we were, like, dropping like flies. And I think that what the Pandemic did was gave me an opportunity. I moved back home in with my dad in San Diego, and I could finally just sit and think about what it was that I wanted for my life outside of theater. And who was I when I wasn't playing a role, which was, you know, this Mormon boy in this production. Right.

A (20:34)

And were you non binary at this point?

B (20:36)

So I was not non binary until the pandemic.

A (20:40)

Okay, sorry.

B (20:41)

And no, no. I think what was tricky was, like, doing this play and finally having, you know, my parents were so proud that their kid was, you know, doing this Broadway musical. And I was making money doing what I loved, but knowing that I was still in the wrong body. And so it was like, oh, is this enough? Is this gonna be enough for me to feel happy and can I just do this for the rest of my life? And it was very obvious that it wasn't. And I'm actually really grateful that the pandemic happened because then when I sat with myself, I was like, oh, something's going on with your gender, Dylan. And.

A (21:17)

And you're how old? You're like, I'm 23.

B (21:20)

22.

A (21:20)

Yeah. So, I mean, I'm Gen X. Right. So my generation, non binary was not a word that I knew of. Right. It was really. When I was growing up, it was more, oh, she's a tomboy. And he's. I don't even know what word. He's feminine.

B (21:38)

Yeah.

A (21:38)

He's effeminated.

B (21:40)

It's fruity. Yeah.

A (21:41)

But I'm thinking about. So I know a lot of people now. The conversations, like you knew it for. And conversations are happening. I know from friends who have kids, they're happening much younger. But to me, I'm just, like, fascinated to hear at 23, you're having these really deep conversations with yourself.

B (21:58)

Yes. And I mean, I was very much already in the LGBTQ community as, like, a gay person, but I didn't know about non binary identities until, like, 2019. 2020. I met a non binary human named, er, Fightmaster, who was the first non binary. It's a great fucking name. And it's their real name.

A (22:17)

Oh, my gosh.

B (22:18)

Fightmaster was the first non binary doctor on Grey's Anatomy. Very talented person. And I remember just looking at them being like, I don't know what you've got going on, but I want a little bit of that in my life because I could tell it was somebody that there was androgyny, but there was a confidence and an ease. And so I started growing my hair out. I think also what non binary really did for me was it gave me an opportunity to be feminine and release from this kind of toxic idea of gay culture and being attractive to gay men. Because that is still a problem that I think is quite rampant in the community.

A (23:02)

Explain that to us.

B (23:03)

Okay. Do you know what a twink is? No. Oh, my God.

A (23:05)

I'm a loser.

B (23:06)

Okay.

A (23:06)

My least. I always had to tell you. I cannot tell you what WAP is. So.

B (23:09)

Okay. But today I can't believe that I get to be the one to tell Monica Klewinski what a twink is. A twink is like a smallish, feminine gay man.

A (23:18)

Okay.

B (23:19)

Often quite hairless. But unfortunately, I was. I was just so hairy, and I was getting laser hair removal. Just try immediately.

A (23:26)

You wanted to be a twink?

B (23:27)

I. Well, I was. That's the thing is a lot of people don't want to be twinks. But you're just. You're a twink.

A (23:32)

You're a twink. You were a twink with. You were a hairy twink.

B (23:35)

I was a hairy twink, which is kind of known as an otter sometimes.

A (23:40)

Wait, I know. Is it cubs and bears?

B (23:43)

Yes. Okay. Oh, my. And bears are some of the larger gay men who, you know, are of the hairier sort.

A (23:51)

Oh, wait. And then a furry.

B (23:52)

That's a.

A (23:53)

It's a stuffed animal costume.

B (23:55)

That's a. I don't know if I'm the one. I don't know much about that community.

A (23:59)

Okay.

B (24:00)

But I do know twinks.

A (24:01)

Okay.

B (24:01)

And this is what I know is that twinks sometimes get, like, the worst of it because I think in gay culture, so many men still really pride themselves on being overly masculine and almost like, proving their sort of dominance, but also, like, the way that they can conform to what society's idea is of, like, an ideal straight man. They're also trying to do that for each other and for the world. And so I was this, like, small, kind of gawky gay kid that still did not feel desired in any way. And I think that was, like, another piece of. That felt so good when I transitioned was I was like, oh, I don't have to be trying to live up to those expectations, which were also exhausting in a lot of ways. And I didn't know that when I transitioned, the stakes were gonna get even higher as far as how I was gonna have to present myself, but it was. So I basically hung up my twink card and justice for twinks. I will just say there are many twinks in this world who are not trans women that, you know, that will live their life as twinks, and then who knows what they will go on to in their after twink life. But I felt so good to kind of hang my twink shoes up. And no shade to the twink. No, we love that. Oh, my God. Twinks are my favorite people in the.

A (25:32)

Okay, wait, I have just a question.

B (25:34)

Yes.

A (25:35)

So when you're talking about this, I don't know if you use the word toxic or not, but around this sort of male. Toxic.

B (25:43)

Toxic masculinity in gay culture.

A (25:45)

Okay. Is that generational? Do you see it in your generation?

B (25:50)

I mean, I still see it in my generation less than, I think a bit because I'm on that millennial cusp. So I feel like I connect with the younger audiences, especially cause of social media. But I do think that a lot of, like, my cultural references, like, I grew up watching Will and Grace and Glee was my favorite. But I think that it was kind of this, you know, early 2000s kind of culture of, like, there was still a lot of gay men who were not coming out of and actors that didn't feel comfortable being out. So I did still see a lot of shame around being gay. And so I couldn't even fathom the idea of transitioning because I was like, well, if gay people aren't accepted, then they're definitely not gonna accept trans people. That's okay. Because I think it's not okay. No, it's not. You're right. You know what?

A (26:37)

I'm sorry.

B (26:38)

It's not. But hopefully it's getting better and we've got a long way to go in many ways. But I felt like, what non binary that time period did. I was non binary for probably like a year and a half. And then I started popping the hormones and I was like, oh, I think I like that.

A (26:57)

I'm here soon.

B (26:58)

Yes.

A (26:59)

But I think about for different reasons.

B (27:00)

Yeah. I think about, like, when I was non binary. It's like almost like in Mario Kart, where you, like, hop on a cloud for a second and then you hop to the next cloud. Like, that was a really nice time to just explore what they're. I think a lot of people are afraid to ask Themselves questions about their gender or their relationship to gender, because they haven't had to in the past. They've just kind of accepted what has been bestowed upon them. I've had some really interesting conversations, I think, especially with women who are like, oh, no, I love being a woman, and I love being in my body. And I've always felt. And that's actually really affirming to hear as a trans person, because I had this response to my physical self growing up that felt so wrong. And now what I'm experiencing feels a lot more parallel to that of the conversations I've had with women. CIS women saying, oh, no, this is. This feels great for me. And I'm like, oh, now I feel that way too.

A (27:58)

Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful.

B (28:00)

It took a long time to get there, though.

A (28:01)

Yeah. It's interesting because I think for me, I've had to develop a relationship with my body in a very different way from really kind of coming out of. Well, I'm still in it sometimes, but realizing how often I feel disconnected from my body and disassociated from my body. And so I think there are a lot of particularly Gen X women for whom all sorts of kinds of traumas that we now have names for. We didn't have names for them back then, but they were traumas. And so you just sort of cut off.

B (28:40)

Yeah.

A (28:40)

And so I started doing somatic therapy a few years ago around.

B (28:45)

Oh, yeah, we talked about this.

A (28:47)

Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a very. It gives me a very different perspective to what you're saying.

B (28:52)

Well, I think what's interesting is, like, I'm four years into my transition, still got hopefully a lifetime to go, but I still find myself wildly comparing myself to the women around me, especially being a woman. Well, yes. What's Wild is doing this Broadway show, and I'm looking at all these girls in the mirror that were on stage together, and most of them are five feet. I'm five, eight, and we all are wearing heels, so I look like Big Ben towering over them. And I clock myself, and I'll be like, dylan, why are you thinking that? You have every right to be amongst these women in this setting and on this stage wearing the same costumes. I think I have to remember that it's gonna be a way better show if I feel confident up there. And knowing none of those women are judging me the way that I'm judging myself is what I need to just focus on. But it's really hard, I think, especially when we're people that are so Often in environments where it's based on comparison or being on camera or being a performer.

A (30:08)

I think too, you've also had the experience, and I know this experience intimately also. Of trying to shrink yourself.

B (30:17)

Yes.

A (30:18)

And when I was. After I did my Vanity Fair piece and I was gonna give a talk, I was one of the many helpers I have. I was working with her of, oh, I don't know how to get big again. I have spent so much time tamping my energy down, trying to get smaller, trying to be invisible. And so I ended up picking a color. I went and bought velvet ribbon, that color. I'd stick a piece in my bra and it was like a way to sort of try to bring in, okay, this is my permission to get big.

B (30:55)

Wow.

A (30:55)

And in a way that's what you're saying, is that it is gonna be the best performance when all of you is there and.

B (31:03)

Cause I literally feel myself trying to shrug on stage so that I look a little bit shorter or that I look and I'm like, fuck that. Like, why don't I put my shoulders back and why don't I own this? And why don't, like, even in the dance moves, like, extend my arm all the way instead of kind of keeping it hovering? I will say the worst part of kind of what I went through was the shrinking and the. Because I'm not someone who, you know, even in my. I guess in some ways in my prior gender, I was trying to fly under the radar or trying to conform a bit. But in my womanhood, once I found that, it was such a burst of pride and of boldness and of new things. So when it was greeted with such hostility, I think I just. I did. I wanted to curl up into a ball and never come out of the blankets.

A (32:00)

Before we get into the details of what happened with Beergate, I just want to talk about the time period of. Because it's. It is magical in some ways, but. So you were back in your parents home, you're living with your dad, you're sort of asking yourself these questions.

B (32:17)

Yeah.

A (32:18)

And then what is the time period of this? And when you do 100 days of girlhood?

B (32:23)

Sure. It was 2021 and I moved to LA, got an apartment and started doing standup comedy, like around town in people's backyards because theater wasn't open yet.

A (32:36)

Oh, that's right. Okay.

B (32:37)

And I started posting, you know, while I was in Book of Mormon, TikTok started to pop up and I didn't really know much about it. And then it Became like, God, I was on the app, like, scrolling like, eight hours a day during the pandemic. Did you scroll on TikTok?

A (32:52)

No. You know what? I had a friend who. She showed me some of these insane videos on TikTok, and she's like, I just can't get off.

B (33:00)

And I.

A (33:02)

It was like braiding intestines or something. And I was like, monica, do not go on TikTok. So, I mean, I've looked because here

B (33:09)

and there, but I. I basically started posting just like, I think I posted a stupid little video of me holding a koala bear in Australia or something, and it got 8 million views in, like, a day. And I was like, wow, holy crap. I didn't know that that could exist or that that many people even would care about something that I was doing. And so then I, you know, moved to la, started taking those hormones, and, God, I love estrogen. But I. I very much knew that. I was like, oh, gosh, my body's changing, and I really like this. And I knew that I was headed towards an idea of, like, trans womanhood. And. And so that I think the. Honestly, it was so much harder to tell my parents and my friends that have known me my whole life than it was to tell the Internet, because that's a group of people that I don't know. And I think it was the individual relationships that I had actually done months before. I made that First Day One of Girlhood video. And so I felt like when I finally did start posting about my transition online, it was like all of these interests coming together of, like, okay, I'm going through this really wild thing personally, that I don't really know how it goes. So I would love to take people along on this journey with me and try to make it fun, if that's possible. And I want to make people laugh, so I wanted to find the funny way to relate to people. And I also think I was just so freaking earnest. And I truly didn't understand that. Like, I didn't know that the magnitude of transphobia existed. And that was in 2022, when, like, I think politically it still wasn't quite as charged up as it was right now. And so I started making these videos. People loved them. You know, a lot of them have, like, 30 million views or 40 million views, but it felt like, you know, ants on a screen is kind of how I call it, because it's just names and sweet comments, and a lot of them made me feel so happy. But then there was a lot of, you know, really Negative ones, yeah. And I think what affected me the most was I felt like I believed that I could change their opinion about. I was like, oh, let me just make this video to show them this other side of myself so that person doesn't hate me as much. And I truly believed that I had the ability to let people in enough. And I just kept giving parts of myself away. And it still clear was never gonna be enough. Cause a lot of the people online were never going to keep watching my videos or they were just gonna assume what they wanted. But I think I had no idea of the magnitude until Beer Gate, as I like to call it, which was In April of 2023, a little bit after a year of my transition where the far right media sort of took me and used me as a poster child in a lot of their anti trans campaigns and in their news stories. I was, you know, very viral at this point online with probably like 13 million followers. And I was getting a lot of brand deals at the time. I was doing a lot of promotional advertisements that were going really well and getting a lot of positive attention. So I think I became sort of like brand's way to feel connected to the LGBTQ community in a lot of ways. I also was using those advertisement dollars to like pay for my gender affirming care and my surgeries, which was like epic way to kind of cheat the system because so expensive and difficult to get that care. And so I really was on such a high and on such a great trajectory in my career. And it was funny because I specifically love drinking beer. It's one of my favorite drinks still to this day. And I had told my agents, I was like, hey, have we reached out to any beer brands before? Because I think I'm an unlikely face of anything in that category, but I love it. And they were like, okay, let's do some outreach. And there was actually like a really big bidding war between two big companies. Wow. And one of them, Generic Beer.

A (37:42)

And Generic Beer company too.

B (37:44)

Well, in my book, Paper Doll, I call it Generic Beer Brand. And so they won. And it wasn't a wildly large contract. You know, I made an Instagram video promoting them. But the real kind of peak to what incited all of the attention was they had sent me a can of beer with my face on it. And I think, of course, the way that misinformation is spread, but like, people saw that can assumed that that was now gonna be on all of their cans of beer or that it was some, you know, there was only one can of that exists, and it's hidden very well now somewhere in a different state. But I think it was one of those things where I went into it with the most kind of casual of intentions because I was like, oh, here's I love beer. I'm trans. My identity didn't even feel like a piece of this puzzle to begin with. And then what ended up happening was the far right media and the powers that be that decided to make that America's biggest problem of the moment, which was, why is a trans person on a can of beer?

A (39:04)

There was the whole thing that happened. Correct me if I'm getting this wrong, but like Kid Rock was then shooting

B (39:11)

beer cans, you did have a. Was it like an automatic sort of machine gun situation, shooting at beer cans, saying, this is for Dylan Mulvaney. That, I think was. It almost felt like that piece of. It felt humorous because it was like that didn't feel real. But then what got scary was, like, real people that were then potentially influenced by that person or that content. And that's what I find really fascinating about some of the far right's content that they're putting out there or some of their philosophies or things that they're promoting that then leads actual people to actual violence. And so I wasn't scared of a country singer coming to my house to, you know, do something. I was scared of the people that listened to that person.

A (40:05)

Well, and then I think you talked about this in Paper Doll in your memoir about there being a bomb threat, right?

B (40:12)

There was. And I. It was the, like, it's just, I

A (40:15)

think what's important, and I don't. I don't mean to reopen anything for you, but I think it's important of, like, a witnessing of how heavy that is and how much was put on you. You're 25. You were so young.

B (40:32)

You know what's crazy is, like, sometimes I feel, like, crazy for thinking that that was a big deal. Like, I feel guilt. I'm like, oh, I try to put it in relation to other things. And then when I hear you say, oh, and there was a bomb threat, I'm like, oh, yeah, there was like. Like, that's a big fucking deal. It is. And I think it's hard for the people in our lives that do love us because they don't want to make it. They don't want to make it worse. So they either don't talk about it or, you know, try to lessen it or find the humor in it. But I think sometimes it's Important to acknowledge, like, when things are bad and call them what they are, which is bad. And I. I think about that version of myself and I just send that version of myself so much love. Because I wouldn't. I. Even my worst enemy, I wouldn't want to put in that position. No. Oh, it makes me feel kind of emotional. And it felt very, like, Wicked in the way of, like, did you see Wicked, the movie?

A (41:44)

I did. Well, it's like Wicked too. You said them both.

B (41:47)

And I think of, like, the villainization of. I think about the animals in Wicked because it's like they needed a common enemy. And so they're like, okay, great trans people. And then with me, felt very elphaba of like, here's somebody that had the best of intentions. And then. But they needed that poster child. And what was so crazy, I think about it, was to be in such a happy place in my life, feeling really stable, feeling like all these things were going so well, and then to kind of have everything ripped away in a way that felt. I almost want to say the word, like, naked, because it felt like I had been backed into, like, a cage. And it felt like I was isolated. Even though I did have, you know, some really loving people around me and on my team, I felt alone. And I also didn't want to. To make anyone else's life harder because of it. And I hated that, like, the people that loved me in my life had to even give attention to it. And now looking back, I'm like, no, that is what loving relationships are and connections and business relationships is like, oh, when shit goes down, these are the people that show up.

A (43:04)

My mom had been dating my stepdad at the time. He wasn't my stepdad yet, so they had been dating for a year. And in between. So there was this FBI sting that happened on January 16th, and the story didn't become public till the 21st. So from the 16th to the 21st, like, I knew shit was about to happen. I was trying to get immune all this stuff. And my mom had left New York in a rush to come because the FBI had me. And so she came down on a train, blah, blah, blah. And when my stepdad. When. Well, he became my stepdad. But when Peter called my mom, she said, lose my number. Do not say you knew me nothing. We changed our phone numbers.

B (43:47)

Yes. This is a man that she, like, loved.

A (43:49)

Yeah. And he was an amazing guy. He was older than her, and he reached out to my uncle and insisted on getting the number. And he stood by us.

B (43:59)

Wow.

A (43:59)

And it was, you know, and he gave my mom this giraffe pin that was, like, to remind her that giraffes look over the trees. So I know. So, like, giraffes are a special thing. I have a giraffe that's beautiful.

B (44:12)

Yes. I think that, like, I have this image of my mother crawling under the window in my house while all the reporters were outside trying to get pictures. And, like, that's something that I would never have wanted to see, you know, Like, I would never want to put her in that position. But the fact that she did show up for me in that way is really freaking cool. What I will say is, like, I felt myself slipping away, and I started to disassociate in the. You know, when people are talking about you and you don't know, when they say your name and they're saying things, you know, Dylan Mulvaney is this, this, and this, or Monica Lewinsky is this and this, you don't know who they're talking about. And it starts to, like, you disconnect from your body and from your identity and from your name.

A (45:06)

Especially when you're young. Yes, when you're young. I mean, I think it would be hard to go through something like that. You know, I'm in my 50s now, but in one's 40s or 50s.

B (45:17)

Yeah. I was 25. Yeah.

A (45:19)

And you have barely formed your own identity.

B (45:22)

And I think the other piece of this was so crazy, was, like, I was still new to being trans. It was only a year in, so I didn't understand people wanted to politicize me so much. And actually, during that first year, I got sent to the White House to interview the president. And I was never a person that was particularly drawn to activism. And so I think looking back, I did put myself in positions and accepted opportunities that weren't necessarily appropriate for me to be doing.

A (45:59)

Wait, why do you. Why do you say that?

B (46:01)

Well, because I was a musical theater kid that, you know, there's so many iconic trans people in this world very much deserving of the spotlight or also having put the time and care into learning more about the community. Meanwhile, they're like, oh, we need a trans person for the White House. Let's get the TikTok girl who has probably only met, like, two or three other trans people before going there. And I think that, like, so much of that experience and after Beer Gate was sort of like, getting back to purpose. And, like, what my purpose really is, I think, is to spread joy and acceptance through humor and through performance and Now I'm getting to do that again on Broadway, which is like. But it. It's fascinating, I think, having gone through that and then realizing that I do miss elements of what my life was like before, you know, Beer Gate. But knowing that I actually would not have changed anything, because I am. If I can get through that, I can get through that, anything. And I've actually been in a few situations in the past year that really fucking sucked. And in that I couldn't talk about with, you know, anyone, whether it was, like, legal or. It was. It was so great, though, to be like, oh, my God, this fucking sucks. But I'm like, but at least it wasn't that.

A (47:37)

And I know for better or for worse, it's sort of like, yeah, but that.

B (47:44)

That is so cool that I also think for both of us to be able to sit here and to no longer be defined by just one thing, I think is really special because I think your legacy has become so many. It's a plural multitude of contributions now that you've made to this world. And I think my hope is to now have people meet me in all these different capacities outside of that.

A (48:11)

And.

B (48:13)

And I think it's so crazy because I've now gotten to the point where, like, some people don't know that ever happened.

A (48:18)

Yeah.

B (48:19)

And lucky. Well, that's.

A (48:21)

But I mean, I have that with some of the younger generation.

B (48:24)

Yes.

A (48:24)

So just.

B (48:25)

But in a way, it's like. Cause it's not. I think it's actually good for them to know that these things have happened. I went to Peru to do ayahuasca to, like, heal from my bullshit. And that was like. That is. I will say, the woo. Woo is very helpful. Oh, I very woo. And I knew about myself when this all was going down. I was like, I'm gonna need, like, a big factory reset. And that's what ayahuasca was to me.

A (48:57)

Okay. And I think I remember reading about this, somebody very interesting popped into your.

B (49:03)

Oh, my gosh. Yes. A senator from the great state of Texas, I believe, appeared to me during my ayahuasca ceremony in Per. And I think I might be the first person to have ever had that person pop into a trip. But what my mother. Ayahuasca, this sort of figure that. It's so funny when I start to talk about it, I'm like, woo. But what this sort of healer figure type was showing to me was that those people who were speaking so ill of me and this particular person had, like, a Senate probe into me for very Illegitimate reasons. They lack, like, true, like, maternal love within them. Like, even. I think there's a lot of men who operate with such a fear of femininity and of maternal energy that they don't know how to work through some of those things, so they project it onto other people in really intense ways. And so, like, it was. It was a real moment of forgiveness to those people that spoke about me that way or that were villainizing me that way. And I really actually don't have that much resentment that I've held onto. And they're still doing it to me and a lot of other people in this world. And it's interesting when you start trying to get to the bottom of the why. And I think it has so little to do with. With me and a lot more to do with what's going on with them.

A (50:45)

Yeah.

B (50:46)

But I've also had some of those fun moments recently. Maybe not fun, but I was in this kind of swanky hotel bar last month, and this woman kind of was, like, looking at me, felt kind of negatively. And my friend, who's so much more confident than me, was like, hey, is everything okay to you? And she's like, oh, yeah, it's fine. You know, and I think so often people don't get called out on those moments. And we started talking to her, and then she ended up like. She's like, why don't I buy you guys a drink? And so we're having a drink with her, and we sit down, and I could see her, the gears turning in her head, and we're talking. We start laughing. And in about maybe 30 minutes into the conversation, she goes, I know who you are. And I was like, oh, okay. And she goes, I'm so pissed right now. And I was like, why? She goes, I wanted to hate you, but I can't. And I was like, what a weird thing to say to someone. But also I was. And actually, my friend got really, like, defensive and sort of like, oh, this is no longer a safe space. And I said, nope, it's okay. Let her go here. Because it's so rare that we get to see into someone who is having an actual moment of change or of this felt like an opportunity for real connection. And I was like, oh, what is. You know, what was it that you felt really triggered by me? And she was like, well, it's just. I was, you know, watching the news, and they said you were, you know, X, Y, and Z. And I started to. I was like, well, no, actually, I did it. And you could see her Being like, oh, my God, I was fed this thing. Yeah. And it was really cool because I think while we might not have aligned on many things in our lives, at least in that moment I knew that she saw me the way that I want the world to see me. And so I think those moments I'm actually really comfortable with. And even being here today, talking about it, there could be somebody listening to this that does come in with preconceived notions. There could be people that listen to your podcast that were like, oh, I'm not gonna listen this episode because it's Dylan Mulvaney. And so I think, I love that there's still an element of curiosity in people. Or like, I just pray that the idea of open mindedness can survive what we're all living through and in social media enough to at least go back to the source and go back to real people's experiences and their beliefs.

A (53:33)

Yeah. It's interesting because what I'm recognizing in you that I've experienced too, and other people that I know who've gone through different kinds of traumas, whether they're public or not, is there's something about the weight of experience that in order to survive it, you have to become so introspective and you have to do a lot of digging. And that's what I hear in the

B (54:07)

story you just told me.

A (54:09)

And that it's because I've seen it with myself too, of these moments where you're actually being generous.

B (54:17)

Yeah.

A (54:17)

You're being generous to this person. They had these negative things and there's like a feeling of needing to be magnanimous. And in some ways it's great for all the reasons you just said.

B (54:32)

Yeah.

A (54:33)

But it also, it makes me sad for you because it comes from a people pleaser mentality.

B (54:40)

But I didn't owe that woman that moment.

A (54:42)

But it's not people pleasing. It's. I don't know if this all makes sense. So I think that for me it was like, there are not a lot of fallen women who get to reclaim their narrative.

B (54:58)

Yeah.

A (54:59)

And so I felt like. And being publicly shamed on a global stage in the digital age. Right. Plenty of people have been publicly shamed throughout history.

B (55:09)

Anne Boleyn.

A (55:10)

Yeah, exactly. And so I felt for me, and it's something I'd been looking at a lot in this last year of. I felt like I am a first going through something and therefore I can't be angry. I can't be angry publicly. And so that it's okay. It's finding the Generosity in me, finding those moments, finding the. How do I. How do I move this conversation forward? How do I take it to a higher place? But that some of that comes from a feeling of if I come out angry, it's too scary for people and I'll just get shut down. Yes. And so I wonder if you feel that way at all.

B (55:56)

I call it palatability because.

A (55:58)

Interesting.

B (56:00)

I wrote a play called the Least Problematic Woman in the World, which I do not think I'm the least problematic woman in the world, but.

A (56:07)

No, no, you're.

B (56:09)

I've had problems.

A (56:09)

I've got a sense of humor.

B (56:11)

And there's a segment called Trans Palatability, which is like, I become the face of the brand trans palatability. And I'm promoting all these products that don't make any sense for me to be promoting, but I'm palatable, so it's okay. And I think for me, I still suffer from that, a bit of this. Like, well, if I can be perceived a certain kind of way, if I'm, you know, looking a certain kind of way, if I talk a certain kind of way, maybe they, they won't hate me as much. It's not threatening, it's non threatening. Yes. And it's so sad because it's like the fact that I'm trans should not be a threat to anyone.

A (56:50)

Right.

B (56:51)

And yet it's like a lot of the times I know it's the first thing people think when I walk into a room and what I want to get to is a place where it's an afterthought in my life and it doesn't have to be for other people. Cause I know we're still in a moment where culture is figuring out where and how trans people are existing, unfortunately, in our everyday lives. And they do. People just don't realize we're there. But I think that the more that we get to see trans people thrive and have families and show patriotism, and I think it's a beautiful thing. So the fact that I get to now go do eight shows a week on Broadway means there's some teenager in the middle of the country that's like, oh my gosh, I can do that one day. And so that's enough for me to keep trying, I guess.

A (57:53)

Yeah. I have found. I don't know if this is or will be your experience too. I have found that some of the darker emotions, that they sort of come. I think I've worked through them and at some other point, I get to another layer.

B (58:12)

Yes.

A (58:13)

And I Had to stop becoming surprised at that. Like, that's helped me is to not be surprised when something comes back up a thousand percent.

B (58:22)

And it's like. It's just when you've kind of forgotten or you thought the Band Aid was big enough and then it. And I actually started the year in a really. I was down in Grand Cayman at this really beautiful resort, and I had met a cute group of guys that were flirting with me. And I actually was like, oh, my gosh. I don't know. They were all friends and they were all, like, interested in me. And I was like, I don't know which one I want. But about halfway through this, one of the guys, at this point, we're like, swimming in all our clothes in the hotel pool. It was so fun. And I hear he's like, hey, oh, my God, that's the trans beer girl. Be careful. And to his friend. And I felt like their moment. And this was like. I think it was like 1am on January 1st. So this was like the first moment of 2026 for me. And I was like, oh, my God. I felt this, like, this layer of shame that they tried to kind of put onto me. And I immediately. I remember getting out of the pool and all of my clothes. And one of the friends who hadn't, like, wasn't the one that I had heard that conversation with was like, wait, where are you going? And I was like, I'm going to bed. And I felt so excited because I knew that whatever it was that those people were gonna about to try to project onto me, I wasn't going to accept. And I woke up on January 1st, and I felt amazing. And I felt like that wasn't. That was an unsuccessful burdening of shame. And so it was a quick reset.

A (60:01)

Yeah, I'm sorry that that happened.

B (60:03)

It's.

A (60:05)

You know what it is? I still have things like that happen on occasion. I'll be uninvited to something. And, you know, you just think, okay, all right.

B (60:17)

I never want to be in a room where I'm not wanted, though. I think, like.

A (60:23)

But there's a. Well, I'm saying for me, I shouldn't project onto you. But I mean, I still. If someone says, oh, do you want to be my plus one to this thing? I will say, we'll just check with them and make sure it's okay.

B (60:39)

Yes.

A (60:39)

You know, and so it's. And I think what is sad is that in order to survive, some of these things become normalized for us, and there's nothing else you can do because you. That we have to go through them to survive.

B (60:57)

And this is the life that we're. This is. You know, I was thinking back to that, you know, saying that I didn't know when people said my name who they were talking about. And. And now I'm like, oh no, I'm Dylan fucking Mulvaney. That is so cool. You are Monica fucking Lewinsky. And if that name on a guest list gets uninvited for whatever reason, like how fucking cool. Because we wouldn't have wanted to be there anyway. You can come to any party that I throw.

A (61:27)

Ditto, girl.

B (61:28)

Cool.

A (61:28)

Ditto. So we end every show.

B (61:32)

Okay.

A (61:33)

I ask the same question. Is there anything that you're working on reclaiming right now?

B (61:39)

I am reclaiming the color red. And. And I am. I am reclaiming trans joy in a way that works for me and might not work for other people, but it feels so good to be back in trans joy. And I hope that other people will let. Maybe some of them have never claimed it to begin with, but. Or feel like they can't claim it because they're not trans. But. But I urge everyone to try to find a piece of it because it is magic. And when you surround yourself with people who know so clearly who it is and what it is that they want to be and who they are, I think a lot of folks will realize that we were not the monsters under the bed or the thing to be afraid of at all. I think that trans people are a gift. And I really hope that others will let Joy into their lives like this.

A (62:43)

Yes. And get joy by coming to see you in six in front.

B (62:47)

Please come on down. Lena Horne Theater. Eight shows a week and hopefully maybe get to see it.

A (62:53)

Oh, I will for sure.

B (62:54)

And thank you for letting me share my joy with you today.

A (62:57)

Oh my gosh. Thank you for being here.

B (63:00)

Woo hoo. Woo.