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- [00:00]
A
I've just got to the point in my life where I'm like, you know what? If I am putting in 10 and I am in my pursuit of excellence and I am happy with what I'm doing, that's all right. And I might not please my husband all the time, and I might not please my kids all the time, and it might, like, piss somebody off that I say something, but I was doing my best. And you can lay your head on the pillow at night and you can be like, that was excellent. But perfection, that's just like. That's a fool's game. That's a fool's errand, and I'm just not part of it. I will. I refuse to play the perfection game. Super damaging for women.
- [00:37]
B
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- [01:13]
C
Emma, welcome to Reclaiming.
- [01:16]
A
Thank you so much for having me, Monica. I'm really happy to be here.
- [01:18]
C
Oh, thank you. I'm really happy to have you. Especially because I have this banana story, which is that about four months ago, I was at the Air One near the Grove, which you must know, living in la.
- [01:33]
A
Oh, yes, I do.
- [01:34]
C
Although that probably is not your Air1.
- [01:36]
A
That's not my Air1. But, you know, I feel all L1s are my Air1.
- [01:39]
C
So I was treating myself to a bajillion dollar smoothie, and when it was ready and I went to get it, the lady who was making my smoothie said to me, I love your podcast. And I was just so touched. And I asked her, I said, well, who would you want to see on? And she said, Emma Green and Melody Hobson. Woo.
- [02:02]
A
Woo.
- [02:03]
C
Exactly.
- [02:03]
A
To be in the same breath. To be in the same breath. Well, I have to tell you, Melody was the first ever guest on my podcast. Yes. So she's someone that I. I don't know if you. Did you speak to her? Have you spoken to her?
- [02:16]
C
No, she is on my list and we have a mutual. She's a mutual friend.
- [02:20]
A
She's magical.
- [02:21]
C
I find her, even though I've never Met her, I'm intimidated. So I haven't gotten up the courage to invite her on. But she's been on the list since the begin, so yeah, so it was just great. So I was saying to the woman, I said, oh well, we're already in talks with Emma and Melody's on my list. So I'm actually gonna dedicate this episode to my smoothie maker.
- [02:46]
A
What a joke.
- [02:47]
C
So this is just such a treat to get to talk to you, especially about your new book.
- [02:53]
A
Thank you.
- [02:54]
C
Start with yourself.
- [02:55]
A
That's right, you are. I'm very excited about it. I really am.
- [02:59]
C
Yeah. No, it's incredible. And it really sort of brings all of your experience of this being one of the most powerful self made entrepreneurs who's like in retail and fashion. But then you're also this architect of several billion dollar companies.
- [03:18]
A
Right. Well, I mean I have to tell you, I couldn't be more proud of this book. But I wrote it really specifically for a reason and it wasn't about me telling my story. I feel that this is a book that's about self leadership and wherever I. It doesn't matter if I'm walking down the street in L. A or if I'm at a conference or you know, in my DMs, women ask me the same thing and people imagine that I have magically found like an extra hour in the day. They want to know like not how did I do it. They want to know how they can do it for themselves. So this is really a book that I wrote, thinking about how you can give women a tool that is about leadership, that is about our careers, that is about finding what it is that you are uniquely here to do. And really like, like the stuff that I have done, it's not about for me thinking about like what are the moves that have got me where I am. It's a way of thinking and it's a belief system. And I'm really trying to take my own personal philosophy and the things that have made me successful and say this is the stuff that I do and this is a way of thinking and maybe some of this stuff can work for you.
- [04:29]
C
Yeah, well, I mean I think too that you've had success in this arena for a very long time, but you became a household name just in part from working, well, not working, creating and architecting the brands such as Good American and of course skims, which I'm definitely a fan of.
- [04:49]
A
Thank you. Who isn't? Let's be fair.
- [04:52]
C
I know, but you know, it's amazing because I find, like, every time I go to this section in the skims section in whatever department store, I find something that I just sort of go, I love this. I love this. I need it. And it's a great price point.
- [05:08]
A
Yeah. And that's really important. And I think a lot of people know me from those brands, and I feel so proud and so happy that I've got to the point that I can have businesses that are household names. But I also think that it's really important to talk about what happened before that.
- [05:23]
C
Yes.
- [05:23]
A
And what brought you here and. Or brought me here. And so in this book, I'm really trying to teach the mindset that gets you to a place where you're even able to take the risks to do the things that you want to do. And, you know, I, obviously, you can hear by my accent, I wasn't born in la. I moved here only eight years ago. And so I'm in a really amazing position, really thinking about the businesses that I've created, the career that I created for myself, and what it actually took. And so it's been a really nice moment to take a step back and think about my way of thinking and the visions that I've created for myself and the rules that, quite frankly, I've just said this. This doesn't apply to me. This is not for me. Because whether we like it or not, as women, there are a lot of things that exist in the culture that tell us the way to behave. And I think that Since I turned 40, I've spent a lot of time getting really close to myself to understand what is it that I think, what is it that I feel? And is this something that I've heard or something that's playing out in social media, or is this something that's of value to me? And so I'm really trying to teach anyone that will pick up this book how important it is to hold a vision for yourself and that it all starts there, how important it is to understand how your emotions affect your decision making. And again, specifically for women, when we think about fear and when we think about guilt, those things aren't useful in business. Monica. And so I'm trying to be really honest not to say that I don't have them. I do. But how do I deal with them? And so that's what I'm taking readers through. And then I kind of got into this thing, like, what are the rules? What are the stuff that people tell me that I'm like, absolutely no way. That's not useful for you. So the book is really this framework of like, this is how my brain thinks. This is what I think will be useful for other people. And these are the things that you don't need anymore.
- [07:17]
C
No, it's amazing. And we're gonna. I have so many questions about your book and I normally don't like to start with someone's upbringing because I feel it's a little expected. But in your case, I think that it is so pivotal to who you are and so much this of your soul in many ways. And so you grew up in East London?
- [07:42]
A
Oh, yes.
- [07:43]
C
Right. With a single mom and three sisters.
- [07:46]
A
Yeah, I'm the eldest of four. Yeah, it was a busy house.
- [07:50]
C
Yeah. I mean, I think I read or heard you say somewhere that because your mom was working so much that you were even co parenting, like early on.
- [07:58]
A
Oh, very much so, you know, for me. And again, that was never a hardship. That's just what you did to help your mom. You know, my mom would go out and her job was to make the money and bring the money and my job was to look after the kids, or so I thought. You know, now we call it being a parentified child. Back then you were just like doing what you needed to do to get through the day and keep the lights on. And my mom was actually my first. The first person that I really understood and connected how work could change your circumstances. And my mom just did everything that she could to keep the lights on, to keep us girls in a great situation, you know. But I grew up in a way where there was a lot of fear in and around the place. East London, for the uninitiated, it's not the nicest place in the world. But I always had this sense of safety that was really there because my mum was so responsible. And this community that I was kind of raised around was very formative in the way that I do business now. It was very much this idea of, you know, your word being king. What you say is important, what you say matters. You have to do, you know, like, you have to tell the truth and you have to come through on your promises and if you didn't, then God help you.
- [09:14]
C
Yeah.
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A
But you know, like, all of those lessons that I learned growing up in that place are the way that I carry myself and the way that I do business today. And so for me, rather than being something that was a setback, it was actually quite formative for me and taught me a lot.
- [09:28]
C
Well, it's interesting because I think that all of what you're talking about really falls under the umbrella of integrity. And so I think it's such an interesting. It made me have one of those moments where I had to realize, like, oh, fuck, I didn't realize. My thinking was that way of finding myself surprised of like, why am I surprised that someone who comes from East London has so much integrity? And that's fucked up. And that's what you are. I think that's one of the wonderful things about what you're doing with your book and with everything in your life, is that you're changing this social representation too, for people right around.
- [10:06]
A
I hope so, you know. I really hope so. And where I, you know, where I was raised, it was like, don't lie, cheat, don't steal. If you were a hungry kid, you could go into anyone's home in like the little cul de sac where I lived and they would give you a sandwich or a package of chips. Like that was just the default. You looked after people, you respected your elders, you looked adults in the eye and you knew everybody's name and you addressed them as Mrs. Whoever. And so it lends to a way of being and having like a very high moral baseline. Like my morals and my integrity was always very high because that's the way I was raised, despite not having much else. My mom had this, like. She always used to say to me, you know, Emma, you aren't better than anyone else, but nor is anyone better than you. And growing up, I really believed that I was like, nobody's better than me. I can do anything so long as I work, so long as I bring my full self, as long as I apply myself. And so that was like just the way I was raised and what I thought was important and still what I think is important.
- [11:07]
C
Yeah, it's interesting because I was reading how you had a paper route at 12, right.
- [11:15]
A
I was a hustler as well, let me tell you.
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C
But it was funny cause it reminded me how when I was, I was very lucky. I grew up in an upper middle
- [11:24]
A
class background and somebody delivered the paper.
- [11:28]
C
Yes, yes. But I think like I tried to get a job at 15 and a half at the guest store because I had. I was like, well, I want more clothes. This is the way to kind of get. I will use what I need to buy more clothes and get a discount store discount, the whole thing. But I loved. That was something I loved and wanted more of. And I look back and it was a really important lesson, a really important lesson to be learning at that age around what it means to work for Your money, what it means to then the ouch of kind of like using that money. Right? I see it with my niece and nephew. Sometimes the difference between, you know, buy me this and, well, you just earned $5. So use your home. No, no, I don't want to use my $5.
- [12:17]
A
It was the same for me. I think I learned two really big lessons. You know, when you have a paper out, you're doing it early in the morning. And so I had exposure to all of these, like, people, you know, we call them the grafters in England, but like, you know, the workers, the people that go and they paint and decorate houses or they work on construction sites or, you know, whatever early morning things. But it was like the. This set of people that got up, they'd be having their cup of tea. I could see them in the window as I'd put the newspaper in. We don't throw them in England. There is no throwing of the papers. You fold them and you put them in the letterbox.
- [12:47]
C
That's very, very English.
- [12:49]
A
It's a different way. But, you know, it's like, even that for me was like, whoa, there are all of these people that, like, leave their homes at 5am like, what could they be doing? And then it was this power of the news. Like, I could not understand that you could get that much information in a newspaper that would cost 50 pence. I was like, there's so much information here. And I started reading, and then, you know, you'd happen upon a business section. And I don't think I took any of that in. I couldn't remember a story. But, like, the idea of being able to enrich myself through information. I didn't grow up in a house with a load of books. I certainly didn't grow up in a house where they read newspapers. And so I just started to learn stuff. And I was like, do you know what happened in the Houses of Parliament today? You know, and like, some ridiculous thing. And a teacher would be like, yeah, that. Like, build on that, read everything. And even now, to this day, like, I have a principal in my business. Like, I'm always in learning mode. I'm always willing to know what it is that I don't know. And I feel like that kind of appetite to just be insatiable with learning when education wasn't really that much of an option for me. Like, in my school, the main thing that you did was like, keep yourself safe. It was not, like, learn. So. So it's just like a different way that I came into learning and It's a habit. Like, I'm a massive reader now. I really enjoyed the process of writing this book and thinking about all the great things that I've read over the years. But it's actually been one of the things that, for me was like, I learned that because I had a paper route, I learned that there was this other way of living and there was a whole huge world out there and that I could be part of some of that. I could potentially run Topshop one day if I figured it out.
- [14:33]
C
No, it's amazing. So I want to go Back to, you're 12, and you're not going to have to do your whole life story.
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A
That's all right. I can do an abbreviated version for you.
- [14:44]
C
No, but I really want to know what life was like for you there. So you're 12, you're doing your paper route, you're interested in fashion already.
- [14:54]
A
I was always interested in fashion, but it was more like in that way of escapism. It's not like I thought about fashion. It's like I thought about it in the way that some people think about the movies or, like, music business, you know, to me, I was like, look at. You know, I grew up London in the 80s. It was the time of the supermodels and, like, great British fashion, you know, Alexander McQueen and not so much the 80s, but 80s and 90s Vivienne Westwood. So it was this, like, glory moment. And I just wanted to be out of where I was from. I just thought that this is a hopeless place. And I didn't see anything that was inspiring to me, anything that I could aspire to. And so I thought the more that I worked, the easier it would be for me to find something else. And so I then decided that fashion would be my thing. But if I'm really honest, I went around and I did a bunch of jobs and work experiences that only taught me what I didn't want to do. I thought I wanted to be in pr, and then I thought I wanted to be a buyer. And then I was like, I'm going to be a journalist. And I was like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. And I landed in a place that was so interesting and formative for me because my first job was in production. And in fashion show production, you get to see what everybody's doing. But I learned the business business of fashion. I understood why the buyers and the journalists go to a fashion show and what the mechanics were of building the show and what happens afterwards with buying appointments and, you know, and so I started to learn the entirety of the. Or the circularity of fashion. And it was this early glimpse into the fact that I was like, nobody's making any money. That just wasn't what I wanted. I was like, I need to find the money. And I fell into sponsorship. And at 24, I started my first company. And again, like, super naive. And I started my company because I just didn't think I was being paid enough.
- [16:42]
C
Right. I mean, hadn't you asked for a raise and they sort of gave you this tiny, tiny. You had built this. You had built this incredible business.
- [16:52]
A
Yeah. And I'd really built a brand. I'd really built a division that was creating these sponsorship opportunities. But more than that, I was making money for this company, and I was being really paid poorly because I was junior at that point. And so, you know, it's like, you get yourself together and you go to your boss and you have all your work, and it's like, here's my commissions, and here's what I make, and here's what you make. And they just looked at me and they were like, yeah, no. And gave me this kind of pitiful raise. And that was the first moment that I connected this idea of starting with myself. And it was really formative. Cause I was like, okay, I could stay here. And we worked with the best and the literally, like, the best people in London. The best brands and the best designers. And I thought, I could build this myself. I'm gonna take a bet on me. And I don't know what gave me the audacity, but it was also this idea of not having much to lose. I was 24, and so I went out on my own. And I was very lucky that I scored a job at another company where they just so happened to believe in me. They were like, okay, Emma, like, you can build this thing here. And it was the first when I was then met with a lot of resistance because the employee, like my employers from the job before, came after me. And I got real scared. I really did.
- [18:12]
C
And legally came after you?
- [18:14]
A
Yeah, they came after me. And it was one of those things where, you know, you can imagine, I had. Of course, you don't have a lawyer when you're 24.
- [18:21]
C
Well, I did.
- [18:24]
A
Why's that? But, you know, I certainly didn't have a lawyer. And I was in a position where I just thought, you know what, Emma? You just gotta face your fear. How bad can it possibly be? And it's a pretty interesting practice, because now I almost find myself looking for the fearful moments, you Know, over the years, I've learned that, you know, there is no risk without reward. And I talk about this a lot in the book. If you don't actually really think carefully about what it is that you want and what you might have to sacrifice in order to get there. And I talk about this idea of trade offs constantly, you're probably not going in the right direction. You're probably not moving yourself in the direction that you want. And so that was a great moment for me to try to get out of my own head and say, actually, it's probably worth the fight. And again, a lot of women, you don't want to take the fight. You kind of want to shrink in the background and go, you know what? Let me just be out of this situation. And I was like, I'm gonna lean into this. Cause I think what's on the other side is better. And it was a huge lesson for me because I think, you know, the truth of it is that ambition really requires discomfort. It really does. And if you want money, it's gonna require some audacity. And I have learned that in my life, there are things that you give and things that you take. And I learned that that was one of the moments I had to just lean in.
- [19:59]
C
Well, I think what's really interesting about the book is that it feels to me as if, rather than being this kind of playbook about business, it's sort of a playbook for emotions, for how to handle your emotions. And I'm just so curious how you landed on that framing, you know?
- [20:19]
A
You know, the framing is because it's the only way that I have been able to get a grip with myself. Because like most people, I'm full of emotions. I'm a very emotional woman, and I'm still full of emotions every day. But I don't let it make my decisions for me. And when I set out to write the book, I was like, why are you successful? Okay, you've done these things. And I wrote, you know, great chapters, I hope, on, you know, building a brand and, you know, thinking about money and making your way through what it actually means to create something. But I had to kind of take a step back and go, what are the things that have made you successful? And one of the most important things, aside from having this very clear vision for myself, is that I have got to grips with my emotions, and I've learned how they informed my decision making. I was a really angry child. I learned at an early age, like, 19.
- [21:15]
C
Right, you took yourself to anger management.
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A
Right. I Did. I took myself to anger management when I was 19 because I had one outburst too much. And I realized that if I was gonna be in the workplace and if I was gonna get to the place that I wanted to be, that I would have to get a grip with how angry I was. And the fact that that was a default emotion for me. I'd never been taught to breathe, to calm myself down. And in fact, I thought it was a show of strength to lash out.
- [21:41]
C
Oh, that's interesting.
- [21:42]
A
Yeah. And when that was no longer serving me as. It doesn't, as any kind of person who has, you know, anger issues knows, I really decided that I would need to do something about it. And I think as I've got older, I have learned the same things around fear. And when I had kids, I learned the same things around my feelings with guilt, that if you don't get ahold of your emotions, they will get ahold of you. And so I've had to really grapple with all of that. And I know, you know, from all of my friends, they all feel constantly guilty. They all feel in this limbo land between the things that they want and the things that they feel obliged to do. They all have dreams, we all have ambition. But sometimes we can let what we're scared of get in the way. And so I thought that that was. That would be me, right? But I thought that that was almost more important to give people the real thinking behind those things. Cause you never. You don't disappear it, right? You don't suddenly ever, never feel guilt or fear. But what are the things that I did to wrap my head around that so that I could do these other things? And so I had to take a few steps backward before I could get forward.
- [22:48]
C
Do you look at yourself now and having a better understanding of what it means to be 19, which I don't know about. When I was 19, I thought I knew everything and I was an adult and all those things. But to look back now and to realize what was like unpacking that moment, what was in that of you recognizing that about yourself, finding a way when it hadn't necessarily been modeled for you to get help with that, like, it's extraordinary. It doesn't surprise me with you, but it's fucking extraordinary.
- [23:22]
A
No, and I agree with you. And you know what it was, it's so interesting. Cause I track it back, and I think what made me go and it was fear. Fear of not being able to meet my full potential. And that part is really interesting because I knew that the behavior that was just so natural for me, that was so default, wasn't conducive to what I really wanted. I was like, you can't behave like that. You can't walk around like that and ask for this over here. And when I talk to people, when I talk to, like, even my own staff, I'm like, you gotta get your asks and your needs and your wants in balance. If you want this, you might need to do this. If you want an extraordinary life, it better be coupled with extraordinary effort. You don't get one without the other. And so this was just part of me learning to balance things and going, like, what is it that I really want? Do I want to stay here where the culture is, that it's always someone else's fault? Or do you want to. Want to be up there? And for me, it was always Oprah. Like, I was and am obsessed with Oprah. I would watch her on the tv and I thought, I want to be like her. She seems so, you know, in tune with herself, and she has this great way thinking. And you. You have to remember the culture 24 years ago. You know, we didn't talk about mindfulness. We didn't talk about meditation in that.
- [24:44]
C
We didn't learn out loud.
- [24:45]
A
No.
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C
We didn't learn in front of people. And I think that's something that she really started. Yeah.
- [24:51]
A
She was filming the culture.
- [24:52]
C
And I think without Oprah having shifted that culture, we wouldn't have had Brene Brown, we wouldn't have had Esther Perel, like, that idea of these things that I think were very secreted away, this idea of working on yourself or that there are problems, and then it's happening on TV in front of you, being talked about so authentically.
- [25:10]
A
Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. And I really took that as this is the model. Like, I didn't know anyone like that. And I was like, I'm going to model. We didn't even say it like that. Model. That behavior. He was like, I want to be like that. That's the type of woman that I wanted to be. And so in my head, I was like, what would Oprah do? What would she do? And would she behave like this? And, no, she wouldn't. So I was like, clean it up, girl.
- [25:37]
C
Meanwhile, while I was reading your book, I was like, I think I need a WWED bracelet. You know, what would Emma do?
- [25:45]
A
So I love that.
- [25:47]
C
Yeah, no, it's great. But it is. It's really. I just found it so impressive.
- [25:53]
A
Thank you.
- [25:54]
C
Just. That's a shift from a culture that wasn't, as you were saying, modeled for you. And what I thought was interesting, too, is I think you said, I don't remember which podcast, I think, but you were talking about how people have seen so much of your success, which is amazing, in the last decade, and how much hard work went into that and the different kinds of jobs that you did. And so that's. And also. So mistakes that were made. Right.
- [26:24]
A
I feel like I've got a book of mistakes there. It's like, here's what not to do and the thinking behind some of those.
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C
I'll write a chapter.
- [26:31]
A
Yeah. Like, literally. And I feel like that's really important because the expectation for women specifically is that we're all moving through life so gracefully, doing all of these things. And, you know, I've got a face full of glam, and my kids are all spectacular, and it's just working out for me when the reality is that I made a ton of mistakes in business out loud. And actually, what I've realized is that men are afforded all of those mistakes. They make mistakes over and over again and yet remain in positions of power, remain at the helm of companies, go out and raise more finances, and if they've lost a ton of money and not a single female business owner is afforded the same type of luxury. And I think it's really important for me to be honest, honest about the things that I've done and the mistakes I've made, because women need to understand it's all right. You don't have one chance. There isn't like one miraculous business moment, and that's all you get. It's not a zero sum game. Right. It's like, we get actually a lot of opportunities. The important thing is to learn from those opportunities. The important thing is to extrapolate the information and don't make those mistakes again. So I try to just be super straightforward about. Like, here are some of the things that I did that I wouldn't do again. Like, these are some of the mistakes that are easy to make. And again, a lot of that comes down to not just the environment and the circumstances, but what are you telling yourself? What is the conversation that's going on in your head? And if you're saying, I can't, I can't, I can't, I don't deserve, I don't deserve, I don't deserve. I feel terrible about leaving my kids. And actually, I don't. I don't need as much money. I'm just gonna. I'm gonna pay everyone else and pay myself less and last, like what is that doing? And so I just wanted to be upfront about some of the misconceptions that are in the culture specifically around business for women and explain why they are not so
- [28:24]
B
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- [28:45]
C
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- [30:12]
A
Is. Well, you know, the mistake that sits kind of heavy for me is, you know, because I'm a people person, I love people. And when you build companies, there is an element of emotion that's attached and I care deeply about people, but it doesn't always work, right? The businesses don't always. Not everything is skims. Let's just be honest, right? There's one skims. And I've done lots and lots of things. And so I would say that when I had a very successful agency in England before I started any of the apparel businesses, and when I had you know, offices in different locations around the world, in London, in Paris, in New York. And when I tried to open in la, I made just like so many assumptions and so much naivety. And I hired people, you know, you bring people from the UK that are performing well to come and come and work in your office. And I had such a lack of understanding about what it would take to be successful in that place. And eventually I ended up having to close that office. The people that worked there, I had to, you know, lay off and then. And that sat so heavy with me. Now, don't get me wrong, I still think that there were plenty of mistakes that I made, but to me, that was like the end of the world. And what I. And that, you know, people would never trust me again and that my reputation was ruined. None of that was true. That is just an unfortunate happening in business, in that moment in time. And the important thing was, what did I do wrong? What did I. What mistakes did I make? What assumptions had I made? What would you do differently next time? And when I started Good American, I knew I had to be in the place, the first company, I tried to run it remotely, I tried to bring people in. And I understood that LA doesn't work like that. You need to be there, you need to be in the mix, you need to be part of the community. And so when I started Good American, I had a two and a half year old and a newborn and I was like, we gotta go, I need to leave. And it was the best thing that I'd ever done. And I, you know, I remember politically, we were, you know, it was the beginning of, like, Trump's first time. And all my friends in England, they were like, what are you doing? Why now like this? It doesn't feel like the American dream moment. And I was like, no, you know what? I have something here and I'm not gonna make the same mistake again. And so it's just a good example of believing that not everything is finite. Bad things happen. It's not about you all the time. It's not that you're a bad person. You can have made a bad decision. And so learning to separate those things and not be so judgmental is a really great. Borrowed from the boy skill that I have cultivated, because that wasn't about me. I made a bunch of mistakes and it was unfortunate and you pay for them, but it doesn't mean that you can never do the thing again.
- [33:06]
C
Interesting. I have a question around Good American, because I think you have this idea about size inclusive, and you Ended up partnering with Khloe Kardashian. But what I'm curious about is what led you to think, okay, this is the right partner for me, but the kind of public facing partner. Was there something about her? Was it. Were you thinking about a lot of different people?
- [33:34]
A
I mean, the truth is, I had a 15 year career building celebrity based partnerships, right? So there wasn't a partnership that I hadn't done or a deal that I hadn't, you know, had. I had like a front row seat in the world of celebrity and brand content.
- [33:50]
C
So you touched a lot of these?
- [33:51]
A
A lot of them. And my job was working on behalf of a brand and going out and finding them the talent. And so I really understood how talent could, you know, accelerate a brand and could make a brand famous and could increase sales and could do all of this great stuff. When I started thinking about this idea around, you know, creating all of these sizes and inclusivity, it was because I'd been on multiple sets where this kind of performative casting was happening, right? You'd have like, you know, a black girl and an Asian girl and a white girl and a plus size girl. And you go around the back and the plus size girl's clothes were cut. They actually weren't making the sizes that fit her, although they wanted to appear like maybe, you know, slightly expanded offering, slightly expanded size offering was working. And it kind of got me thinking. And I will never forget Monica. I sat at a dinner and a guy and this is again, goes back to this idea of listening and picking up on these cues and things that people are telling you. A guy told me, I invested in a business and I'm making a ton of money. And I said, well, how? Cause I was like, this brand is like a horrible brand. I don't understand. And he said, well, the plus size business, you know, there are so many customers and they're really underserved. And, you know, so there is just like an opportunity. I go back home, I Google the brand, and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't be seeing dead in any of that. Like, why would this particular customer be given those options? And my mind just started going. I was like, dick, dick, tick, tick, tick. I'm just gonna make really great clothes in a ton of sizes and let women decide. And actually when you started to dig down deeply in it, you realized, you know, the majority of CEOs at the big fashion companies are men. I was like, what do they know? Why are they dictating? Why are they deciding that it has to Have a. Or it has to be cut on the bias, or who gets to wear the tiny pink bikini based on the size of her butt. And so for me, it was just like a lightning bolt moment. And I decided that I probably could. I was like, why not me? You know, and so it goes back to this, like, messaging and the stories that we tell ourselves. Cause I always thought, well, you know, I'm not gonna be, like, the best, but I definitely won't be the worst. I'm gonna have a go at doing this. And so I took what I knew. What I'd spent 15 years perfecting was this art of celebrity partnerships. I had a relationship with Kris Jenner, who is, you know, the matriarch of the family and the manager, and, you know, the rest goes down in history. We had a phenomenal meeting. We built a phenomenal company together with Chloe. And the brand spoke for itself. I think that customers intrinsically understood that. They didn't know that they necessarily wanted this product. But you would put those jeans up and you would feel great. And everyone had a story. You know, I remember, like, really trying to court the press. And what was interesting to me was that in every office in New York media office, there was a woman who wasn't able to try the fashion that she was having to write about.
- [36:46]
C
Yeah.
- [36:47]
A
And so when Good American came in, she told her colleagues that story. She said, oh, this is for me. Like, they see me. They are.
- [36:55]
C
Oh, I get this. I mean, I've been, I think not every size, but I have been all the sizes. All the sizes. A wide, wide range of sizes. And I remember, I remember a point where I was buying maternity clothes because the maternity clothes were cuter than the plus size clothes. And so it's just a. Yeah, it was just a. So I think that there really, there truly is. And there's. And what's even worse is that the invisibility is cloaked in shame. You know, it's this idea that you shouldn't be there. I mean, I've said this.
- [37:30]
A
Yes. That you would need to go five floors up in a department store right next to what is typically like the food place, and you'd find the plus size section that has a limited amount of styles and actually nothing that you want to buy.
- [37:40]
C
Right.
- [37:41]
A
And, you know, again, when we started that brand, I was insistent. I was like, every retailer has to buy all the sizes all the time. They all have to be stuffed together. There was no separation. And actually, what we learned later is that so many plus size customers weren't Shopping the regular section that you needed to be double exposed.
- [38:00]
C
But the point to me was that
- [38:02]
A
it can't exist just there. It has to be that women can come into a department store and in the same way that they would be able to buy cosmetics and shoes because they're sizeless, that they could come and buy what their friends are buying and trend and what you want to wear and how you want to feel isn't dependent on the size of your butt, right? So at the end of the day, we were just giving women what women want. And I think that that brand is so special because even as we see the size curve really shifting now, right, the GLP1s, the women that were loyal to us at a size 20 are loyal to us now that they're a size 20.
- [38:36]
C
Oh, I agree.
- [38:36]
A
And it doesn't matter, because you have been there for people at whatever stage of their weight journey, and they were absolutely be customers of ours forever.
- [38:46]
C
I'm thinking about the story of actually when you launched Good American, and the first day, and you've got this, like, the high of a bajillion sales, and then the realization, right, that you don't have the inventory.
- [39:00]
A
I don't know anything. I don't have the experience to run this company, quite frankly.
- [39:05]
C
Well, no, you did. You did.
- [39:07]
A
At the time, you know, it felt like. Like it felt entirely overwhelming. And, you know, when you work so hard for something and you know that there are missteps, and I was so aware of all of my inadequacies, and yet, by the same token, somebody that was a board member or an investor had said to me, you have no fucking idea what you're doing. And I was like, I'm still the best person to run this thing because I have the heart and the soul, and I have the vision, and I know what needs to happen next. And guess what? I'm gonna figure it out. And so. So I have just learned that everything is figureoutable. And I'm really, really, really good at picking up the phone and finding out the information. And so nobody taught me how to run an apparel company. I had to take what I'd learned from being in this agency business and the strength that I had as a kid as a hustler, and put all of these things together and figure it out. And what I learned is that it kind of goes back to this idea of. Of, like, never thinking that you have to be all things. If you ask people, they'll tell you. I phoned competitors, I phoned factories, I phoned like other brand CEOs, and especially, like, in the female business community, women were like, oh, yeah, I'll introduce you to a new logistics provider. I'll, like, teach you how we plan fabrics. And I was like, great. This is really good. And, you know, I always think that people are looking. Looking for mentors, like, in places that are really hard to get to. Right. So, yeah, everybody would love, you know, whatever said CEO to be their mentor. I actually found the women around me with tons of experience. I had this incredible woman called Melissa Anderson, who was the first employee ever. She had a huge background in business. I learned so much from her. She was my employee. But, you know, if you listen and you look, sometimes the people around you have stuff that you don't have. And so I think I've done a really good job at just, like, appointing people all the time.
- [41:09]
C
I think where I was going is that your response to what happened that first day with Good American was to connect to community. Was to connect to the community of people who had responded so well that.
- [41:23]
A
Right.
- [41:23]
C
You were calling people.
- [41:24]
A
Oh, I find them.
- [41:25]
C
Right, exactly. And so that's really interesting to me because. Because that feels like you had identified what the heart of the business is. And that heart of the business is very much what you were. It sounds like, exposed to when you were younger.
- [41:40]
A
And I think you're right. And I learned to court the right things because, again, we can be so immoored by the press and the accolades and the, you know, everyone that was writing about us. And I knew very early that customers could make or break this business. And if I made a customer happy, she was gonna tell all of her friends. But equally, if I didn't deliver to person a customer, and we had so many people trying to buy jeans that we then couldn't deliver to that. That would be a negative story unless I did something about it. And that's why I got on the phone. That's why I started texting. That's why I started calling people. Because if you hear the founder calls you and says, I'm so sorry, but I did not realize we were going to have this many orders. And I promise I will get you the jeans. It's just going to take about eight weeks. Now, most people will cancel their order, and some people did, but a lot of people decided no. Do you know what? She gave me a call. I think this girl's, you know, a nice chick. I feel like she's gonna figure it out.
- [42:33]
C
You have such a. You can. I mean, I can imagine being on the other end of that line. And there's just. There is something. I mean, you know this. I'm not like, fluffing you, but there's something very special about you, Emma.
- [42:43]
A
Oh, thank you. Thank you.
- [42:44]
C
And very special about your energy.
- [42:46]
A
And I'm just a tryer. I try really hard. And, Doug, there's nowhere I wouldn't go to help someone customize and save on car insurance with Liberty Mutual, even if it means sitting front row at a comedy show.
- [43:04]
C
Hey, everyone.
- [43:04]
A
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C
Me to a human, him to a bird.
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A
Yeah, the bird looks out of your league anyways.
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C
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- [44:52]
A
I think we're in a time and in a culture where if everything is in a unicorn, if everything is in a billion dollars, somehow it doesn't count. And I've had really big businesses that work like a dream. I've had small ones that have failed miserably. I've had and have and had medium sized ones. I'm still trying to figure out and iterate on. But I think that we have to realize that there's value in different things, that not everything needs to be absolutely enormous for it to be of value to you. Some businesses are supposed to be small and employ three people and give you great joy and something that you love. And I think it's a real shame where we are right now that this idea that everything has to be so spectacular because that is never really what it's been about for me. It's like, is this a great product? Are you. And let me be clear about this, making money is the point of business, right? We're not. This is not a charity, it's not a non profit. I do plenty of that too. But the point of business is to make money. But if you can pay three people and you know, have a great job and do something that you love, then that's a massively, massively successful business. And so I think sometimes just like figuring out what is it that you're optimizing for, what is the thing that in your life will make your life better and it's really different for different people based on where we are.
- [46:16]
C
Well, one of the things I loved, I think it's sort of section three of your book, right? Or the old thoughts.
- [46:22]
A
Oh yes, yeah.
- [46:24]
C
And so you really sort of, after taking us through looking at emotions and understanding emotions and, and you've just had this incredible ability I think, to take in what you were saying before about your failures and sort of metabolize them in a way that are not, that don't kind of keep you from moving forward, right? But you get into this section right now where you're telling us about old thoughts that you wanna dismantle and you start with, with trade offs, right?
- [46:57]
A
The trade offs are the trade offs.
- [46:59]
C
I know you mentioned before, but I want to, I was like one of my producers was, she's very into the trade offs and I was very into the money section.
- [47:07]
A
So I love it. We've got a very even killed team here. This is fantastic. Well, the trade offs are really real because again, I think that this isn't something that lots of women haven't heard, but I think the reality of the trade offs is a little bit need some demystifying because, because the point of having a trade off, it's not something that you wanted to get rid of, right? It's something that you actually really want, it's something that you wanted to do, it's something that you might take for granted. And so I like to Just be honest about what gives. What are the things that I don't do? Because nobody gets to have a wonderful career without there being some downside. I work all the time, Monica. I have four children and I miss out on things. I miss out on things with my kids. I don't take them to school every day. I am not the person that is fully available for them. And as a result, I've had to create a village and a community in a country that I'm not from of people that are also gonna be there for my kids. And I think that we've created an impossible situation for women where we say you have to be all things to your kids, that they rely on you for absolutely everything in their lives, including, you know, you having to watch every ingredient of every piece and having to make performative, pack lunch boxes. Having to be there for their needs. Cause otherwise they're gonna be in therapy,
- [48:27]
C
which they'll be in anyway, by the way.
- [48:29]
A
Absolutely right. Like, my kids are just as happy going to school with a nanny and singing in the car as they would be with me. And so again, it's not that I'm saying that's the right trade off for everyone, but for me taking my kids to school a couple of days a week, I feel like I'm winning. I'm like, bam, bam. That's okay. And so I just want to to be honest about what those trade offs are. They are things that you might otherwise really like to do. They are joyful things. And you decide that your hopes, your dreams and your ambitions are going to take precedence over the other stuff you have. Something's got to give. And that's why I named the book Start with Yourself. Because it really does start with you having a vision for yourself and having a vision for your life and saying the stuff that's important to me is this. So I think it's really important that I make the most of my gifts. I've worked this hard and I've got to the point where I can be doing the things that I want to do in my career and my professional life. And I have four children. And so where's the balance there? What is enough that I can do over here and the things and take advantage over there. And I still feel good at the end of the day. And that might be different for someone else, but I am my own judge. I'm starting with my thoughts and my vision. And so that's a really good example because I always think this idea of trade offs is like getting rid of all of this shit that didn't matter anyway. It's like. No, it's usually stuff that's really hard. It's usually a very difficult decision.
- [49:53]
C
Yeah, no, it's so interesting. You have this great. Let me find it. Cause there was a great quote. I don't know if it was from this section, but I'm thinking about it now.
- [50:01]
A
I love a good quote. You know, I post a quote almost every morning. Cause it's. Oh, no, this is a quote from your book. But it's how I process. And so I'm glad that you're finding a quote in my book. Oh, yeah, Tell me, what have I said now?
- [50:13]
C
I have a bunch in here, so they're good. So if we're going to change the world, we have to start with ourselves. We have to get on our own teams and choose ourselves first. This idea of getting on your own team, it sounds so simple. It was very profound to me. It was very, very profound to me of like. Oh, yeah, it's not just myself or talking well to myself or whatever those things are. It is literally being on my own side. And I don't know why, for me, that was just so.
- [50:46]
A
I'm so glad. I'm so glad that, that because to me, getting on your own team is not just once in a while giving yourself like a little pet talk.
- [50:56]
C
Yeah.
- [50:57]
A
It is being unashamedly focused on what it is that you want and when the rubber meets the road. Choosing to be on your own team. Because once again, as women, we can so easily say, but there's a need over here. So I will go there. Because we're selfless, because we're generous, because we're caregivers, we're nurturers. And that is all totally fine until the resentment starts to build up. And so when I say, get on your own team, it's like, remember what you want. Remember why you came here. Remember why you get up early and you go to the gym and you eat well. Well, all of those things has to be about at some point, making yourself happy. So perhaps making yourself happy is going to allow you to make everybody else happy and do all the other things that you do. And there is this idea that if you are starting with yourself, that somehow that takes away from everybody else. Absolutely not. It doesn't. What I actually saying is quite the opposite. If I give to myself, if I look after myself, if I put myself first, I'm actually happier, I'm in a better mood, I'm more generous. You're not driving me Crazy, because do you know what? For 90% of the day, I've been doing the shit that is important to me. And so I'm happy to give over here, but I don't want to put myself last in every decision I make. I don't want to be the final thing and then, you know, have this resentment that I hold and for that. That to be leading my decision making.
- [52:21]
C
Well, especially for women. I remember I took these courses like over a decade ago, and they talked about woman trying to step into her queen ness or whatever that was, and her queen phase and the whole thing about needs and wants. And I had a very hard time trying to articulate my needs. Like, I actually started to cry. Yes, yes, yes. It was really interesting to me. But one of the things that came up for me as you were talking about that, that I remembered was they were saying that you can see the easiest way to see the difference between how men and women deal with their needs is having to go to the bathroom. A woman will have to tinkle and she will hold it for hours.
- [53:04]
A
Hours.
- [53:05]
C
And a man has to go. And he's like, oh, I gotta go. Yeah. And that really. I know it's a weird example, but it really crystallized it is.
- [53:14]
A
It isn't a weird example. And I'm so happy that you. That you say it in a way of something that to so many women, they're probably like holding their pee right now, right?
- [53:24]
C
Go to the bathroom, ladies.
- [53:25]
A
Go here. Cause this is not a. This is totally fine. But you know, you have to go like, why, why are you doing that? Because you didn't want to walk out of the meeting and seem. And appear impolite. You didn't want to stop somebody in the middle of a conversation. You'll find that none of the reach you are holding your pee are for you. Cause you know it's not good for you. Yeah, it's really uncomfortable. You don't want to do that. But you are constantly thinking about somebody else's needs over your own. And so when I say get on your own team, it really is just about putting your own needs front and center. And again, I don't want this to come across as, goodness me, like, this girl is so selfish. But is it the worst thing to be called selfish? You know, you remember like, when everybody was like so obsessed with like, you know, is she nice? It's like, is it the worst thing to be selfish? I actually think it's a really important skill I'm actually optimizing and teaching my kids Especially the girls, to be a little bit selfish. Because nobody's coming to hand you anything. Nobody's coming to save you. No one's going to be like, I wonder if Monica needs a pee. They're not. Nobody's thinking about you. They're too busy thinking about themselves. So what you've got to do is self advocate and start with your needs and go from there.
- [54:39]
C
Yeah, it's interesting because it's making me wanna go look up the definition of selfish because we all just have this idea of what it is, is that somehow it has a negative connotation to it. And at the same time it is. I think there's so much about what you're saying, but also I wanna talk about ambition too because. Oh, I think, well, are you peppy or you okay?
- [55:05]
A
No, I'm totally fine. I think it's another ambition word that when leveled at women it has negative connotations. And when leveled at men, not so much. And I know this because there have been many, many times when you know, there are reference requests, let's say on a woman, and they will say, yeah, she's very ambitious. And with a guy they'll be like, he's so ambitious. When you reflect reference check, that's tonality. And I'm like, what do you mean by that? Like what? Like are we really at that point where a woman being ambitious is seen as negative? Like we think about someone who is, you know, single mindedly focused on like going after her own stuff. I'm like, yep, somebody that actually had to move another colleague out of the way to get what she wanted. Yep, I'm still comfortable. Like, tell me what's. So tell me why the voice goes down as opposed to. And so again, and these are things that we can all check ourselves in in the culture. Because if we can't own it for ourselves, it's really difficult to be unashamedly ambitious. And you can't be ambitious in silence. You have to be.
- [56:14]
C
Okay, wait, say that again.
- [56:15]
A
You can't be ambitious in silence. You have to put it out there again. You're not going to be chosen. You've got to be very clear about what it is that you want. And that's why the start of this book is about that vision piece. Because unless you've articulated that for yourself, and I'm not talking about vision boards or manifesting, nobody's manifesting their way into anything.
- [56:36]
C
Yeah, I thought that was so interesting.
- [56:37]
A
It's true. Because our culture has led us into a place now that we believe that if you put it on a vision board and you manifest it, therefore you wish for it, it might come. Ambition has to find you working. Ambition has to be loud, it has to be articulated. And the first place you have to do that is with yourself. So you've got to be really clear about what is it that I want? What kind of career do I want? How do I want to live, how many trips do I want to take a year? Do I want a family? Like, all of those things are important because careers actually require visibility and proximity. You're not going to get promoted from your bedroom. It's just that. It's just a fact. Like, well, I don't know who gets it. Well, there's a. You know, a different type, but you know what I mean, right on a zoom in your living room. It's like, those things aren't going to happen. You have to have proximity. You have to be in people's minds. You have to be around in order to learn. And I also think that, you know, when you start to think about women and planning and families, that requires some timing, if that is what you want. And I think there are so many women out there that have made the decision that they don't want children. That's not for them. And that is completely. And I know and have so many friends that are just happy being wonderful aunties.
- [57:57]
C
We were talking about Chelsea Handler before we started, and she's someone like, I don't have kids, but I had always wanted them. But Chelsea was like, nope, I want to be an aunt.
- [58:06]
A
And I think that that is totally fine, but for a lot of women, that isn't the case.
- [58:10]
C
I struggle with ambition for all the reasons a lot of women do. And then I think for me, there's also another layer that I haven't quite. I've been working on trying to dismantle around. I think that people had a. One of the false narratives around me was this idea that I wanted to be famous and that I wanted. And that I was ambitious in going after the president and trapping him and having this thing and making it public, which I did not choose to make it public. But so it's just interesting to me because I think I have felt, in fact, it wasn't until I started the podcast, and I was like, I want to move conversations forward. I want to help people, and I want to make a fuck ton of money. And some people. Yeah, some people were like, well, maybe you shouldn't say the last one out loud. And I was like, no, that's the whole point. The whole point is that I haven't allowed myself to feel that, you know, to sort of. Or I've wanted it, but I haven't allowed myself to really do the things that allow me to step into that. And so it's just. It's just been. I'm just saying, like, reading the book has just made me kind of open up in terms of thinking about, okay, there's. How do I separate these two things? Of what was connected to this old trauma that no longer serves me and what's connected to being a woman?
- [59:37]
A
I'm, like, giving you a round of applause in my head, because even for you to have the ability to say that shows me that you are clear and going to make a load of money. Because, well, you've said it right, but that's the first part. And I want women to understand that you can do deeply meaningful, important work and make a lot of money, that you can care a lot about money and care about other things. And somehow in our culture, we've tried to. To disassociate the two for women, not for men, just for women. And so when you say, I want to make a fuck ton of money, that's great. Then how are you going to make a fuck ton of money? Like, then you can start making the plan, then people understand, then you can connect the dots, then you can put your priorities in order so that you can make a load of money. But if that's just a little secret that you're thinking about, let me tell you, you ain't going to make no money. And for too many of us, we have these secrets and these ideals and these ambitions that live caught in us, and they never see the light of day. Well, how much do we think they're likely to come true? They really aren't. So the first thing is getting on your own team, owning your ambition, and being unapologetic about it. My working title for the book was Without Apology.
- [60:54]
C
Oh, I like that too.
- [60:55]
A
Which I loved. But, you know, I thought, again, that's gonna have the connotations to women that there's something to apologize for. I'm like, absolutely not. Okay, so start with yourself. It's a positive. Without apology.
- [61:07]
C
You know what? You could give a talk.
- [61:08]
A
Yes, exactly.
- [61:09]
C
And call it that. I'll call it that. You know, exactly.
- [61:11]
A
I want all my T shirts.
- [61:12]
C
There's a great. I'm gonna find more quotes. I have so many quotes in here. Producers and I were like, first of
- [61:18]
A
all, you're so wonderful and so prepared and I'm so happy that I'm sitting in an interview with somebody, a woman of your stature and of your, like, you know, what you're doing right now with your visibility, who is just happy to say, I would like to make a ton of money. Amen. Yes, please. Yeah, let's go.
- [61:37]
C
But I even. But it's interesting. Cause I. You're like, no, but I'm noticing. I'm noticing in my body. Right? Noticing in my body. Oh, you say that and my chest tightens a little. There's a part of me that wants to go, yes, I'm running this race with you. And a part of me that is like, no, no, get quiet, be small. Yeah, don't be ladylike.
- [62:00]
A
Totally. I still have purpose and meaning and all of those things. And again, it's about not trying to separate those things. I've always had a purpose component, a give back component in the things and the businesses that I've been a part of after they became profitable. And again, trying to get comfortable with this idea around money. You know, we have to remember that, that men pitch around profitability, women pitch around purpose. Investors invest in profitable companies. And so when you lead with this idea of meaningful purpose impact, that's all great once you have a profitable company that can stand those things up. But it can't come before. It can't be the opening page. And so in a way, we have to say to ourselves, there are some horrendous things that are happening in our culture which mean that women only get 3% of venture capital. But there's also a reason that a lot of these pitches don't see the light of day. And some of that responsibility, like it or not, is ours because we're hiding behind the ambition. We're hiding behind this performative purpose. And that isn't what people fund. And so immediately going out of the gate a for profit entity is exactly that. It is to make money. And if you're shy about it, not only will you probably not make any, but you probably won't get funded either. So on your own team. Yeah.
- [63:30]
C
Okay. Here's this quote. It's long, but, you know. Do you want to read it?
- [63:35]
A
You could read it if you want me to.
- [63:37]
C
Yeah, why not?
- [63:37]
A
I'll try. Let's hope I don't mess it up, shall we?
- [63:39]
C
Okay. It's the top one from the top until the.
- [63:43]
A
Until they're burning. Okay. Reading the book. This is why it's so important that we heal our relationships with money and begin telling ourselves a different story. About what it means. Otherwise we're going to think the same thoughts about money that are based in trauma, scarcity and lack or just avoid altogether. And we're going to continue to make that story come true. In my experience, if you don't do the work of looking inwards and interrogating the way you're thinking about money, you're not ready to take control of it in your life. Money is not negative. It's a neutral tool and it needs to be explored, explored thoroughly from that perspective. So good preach, Emma.
- [64:24]
C
Yes, well, but do you. Cause you've talked to in that section. And we'll talk about other things too. I'll go off the money topic, but I'm just curious because you talk about this, framing it around that talking about money for women is seen as being inelegant. And I wondered if. Do you have an idea of where that came from?
- [64:46]
A
Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of this is deeply embedded in society and it comes from years and years and decades and centuries of social conditioning. Okay? If we think about the history of our own country, and I don't want to mess up the facts, I'm highly dyslexic and the minute I try to say a year, I'll get it messed up. But it's not been so long in this country that women could get a loan without the permission and the signing of a man or a credit card
- [65:14]
C
with their name on it.
- [65:15]
A
It's just like those things are unfathomable. When you start to think about where we are and how brilliant women are at making money. Women are exceptional. When given responsibility for a pnl, they will think about every anger and every conflict cost that goes in and out. And so it isn't about lack of ability, it's about social conditioning. The stories that we tell ourselves, we all come with a money history that is locked and loaded in us, right? Depending on your circumstances and how you were raised and how you come into money, if you've ever come into money. But we all imagine that if you are getting something, that it is coming from someone else. And I want to say that is just not the case. Just because you are richly rewarded or you're trying to be rewarded for the work that you do, it doesn't mean that somebody else gets less. It's a little bit like, you know how we were speaking about how you think about your time and your energy. It's like there is enough to go around. And so getting these stories out of your head, that wherever you've learned them, from. If they. From your past. If it's just social conditioning. That's the starting point, being able to articulate money and realize that this idea of scarcity isn't real. It's manufactured, it's made up. It's something that we've been taught that has become a default way of thinking, but it is not true. Money is neutral. It's a tool. And once you understand how to use it, you'll get more of it. It's just that simple. If you avoid speaking about it, you won't have any. And so it's like, just like anything, it's unpacking the stories around it and realizing what is for you. Because just because something has been that way for however long it's been that way, it doesn't mean to say that it needs to continue that way. And I think that we need more examples in the culture of people like me that are dispelling some of the ideas that we carry around, around money. And use that as an example instead of what you have seen and what you think to be true. Right.
- [67:22]
C
Talk to me about your rule of thirds philosophy.
- [67:26]
A
It's a big rule in my life. You know, I can't take complete credit for this, and I wish I know where I heard it or what was the original kind of genesis of this thought, but it's a really good one for me, and it is the rule that I live by. So the idea is that when you are doing something difficult, or you're chasing a dream, or you're going after your goals, you're highly ambitious, you're going to be happy about a third of the time. And the other third of the time, you're gonna be like, okay, just that in that kind of, I'm all right, I'm in coasting mode. And the last third of the time, you will be miserable. Yeah, like, really quite sad and quite miserable. Sadness is actually a whole chapter in my book. Because it's one of those ones that's, like, not that fun to talk about, but we all experience it all the time. In my. In my life, I feel like it's crept up on numerous occasions. But it's one of those emotions that I really think that I use this rule of thirds as a barometer because if I'm too happy all the time, I know that I'm not pushing things hard enough. I'm not finding the edges of what the possibilities are for myself. And likewise, if I'm too sad, I'm probably not, like, balancing things well enough. I'm probably Pushing too hard, and I should, like, take a step back and reevaluate. But the idea that we should be happy or content all the time, it's just like, not what my life has been.
- [68:52]
C
I don't think that's anybody's life.
- [68:54]
A
Right. But it's also like, we feel like we can only show that side of ourselves. So what I mean by the rule of thirds is not just you being okay with the balance, but it's getting everybody else around you to be okay with the balance. I'm going to come into the room full of beans sometimes, and sometimes I'm going to be in a shit mood, and sometimes I'm going to be indifferent. And all of those parts of me are okay. And you have to learn how to relate to the world and still be eyes on the prize through all of those phases of you. And so I've learned that even when I'm going through something, even when I'm feeling really low, there is a way for me to turn up low and still go right. It's like, I can't let that feeling stop me. And so I've really trained myself to operate in each of the thirds of the way that I feel, because I don't want to. I don't want to stop. It's not like I like to take my foot off the.
- [69:44]
C
I don't know if you like to talk about these kinds of things or not, but I'm curious about, like, what was the last time you felt really low and why? If you feel. I don't want to.
- [69:56]
A
No. I'm so happy to talk to you about. I am. You know, I'm a Libra, and it's
- [70:01]
C
like I have, like, Libra Rising.
- [70:03]
A
Are you. I have, like, Liber Rising. I love that my favorite uncle is a Leo. I always love Leos. You know, I'm a kind of like eight on the happiness scale. You know, I'm like a default happy girl. I wake up, I feel lucky, I'm grateful, I'm like, let's go. You know, that's just like, kind of like my natural makeup up. But when I go, I go. And it tends to be when I've gone off course, when I'm, like, out of alignment with the things that I really believe in. And it happens, you know, I think that we all have those moments where we've perhaps sacrificed something that we think is really important and. And moved off off course. And I can definitely get to that kind of point where I go, wait a minute, why am I doing this? Thing again, why am I spending my time this way? That has nothing to do with the things that are important to me. And the older I get, the better I am at measuring those things. But that's definitely not to say that I don't find myself in situations. So it's usually about when I'm acting, like, just out of whack with something that I believe in. And it will happen every now and again in the business. You know, you kind of get carried away with, like, something that's so good. And I'm like, this isn't something I feel good about. What I've learned as I've got older is that you can stop it at any time. You know, that I can be really sad and really down about a decision that I've made and I can stay in it, or I can just, like, go, I made the wrong decision. The thing that I said yesterday isn't the thing that I think today. And I change my mind. We're not doing that. It's making me feel shit.
- [71:41]
C
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think. I think what I struggle with sometimes is because my lows have been so low before that I think sometimes I'm in a low, but I don't actually
- [71:55]
A
see it because it's not scandal.
- [71:57]
C
No, it's not scandal. It's like, it's not a national score. I want to kill myself. You know, it's not.
- [72:02]
A
That's fine. So suicide. Yeah.
- [72:05]
C
But I mean. And in some ways, maybe that's good, because I think I've probably had a period in the last few months that have had more lows than I have had in the last few years. And so that sense of what I do see in myself is like, okay, everybody has this. Most of the time, it's good or neutral. And so, okay, this is what's happening. I'm cranky today. I'm bummed. I'm crying more than I would like to. Whatever that looks like, you know? And so. But it is. It is. I don't know that I've thought of it or lived it as your rule of thirds philosophy, but I feel like I somehow innately have done that a bit. And I, you know, plus one to it. So sign on. Sign on to that.
- [72:51]
A
I love that.
- [72:52]
C
Well, one of the other great things, too. I'm just gonna go from one great thing that you talk about to another, but I just love, love, love, love how you talk about the difference between excellence and perfectionism. Will you go into that?
- [73:09]
A
It's one of my Favorite subjects.
- [73:11]
C
Okay.
- [73:12]
A
Well, you know, because it's just.
- [73:14]
C
It's so profound. It's, like, so simple, but so profound.
- [73:18]
A
Well, you know, I really believe in trying to be excellent. And I have so many wonderful women that will come up to me either at a conference or they slide in my DMs, and they're like. Like, I'm working so hard and I'm trying to be noticed, and, you know, I really deserve a promotion. And nobody sees me, and I feel like I should be doing this other thing. And I'm like, okay. And it happens to me in my own businesses, too. And I'm like, I get it. You see something else for yourself. But are you excellent where you're at? Is that thing, whatever you're working on, focusing on right now, are you putting everything into it? Because the pursuit of excellence is one that is so satisfying. And I, you know, I can talk about, like, learning to make. Like, you know, I used to work in a deli when I was there. Oh, and so you'd, like, pump out the cappuccinos. If you were on the coffee machine, you'd make, like, 100 sandwiches in a day. But I would take so much pride in, like, having the best foam or making, like, the best sandwich. And I always do the sandwich analogy because you get really good, and then people go, mmm, this is amazing. And you would, like, make other people happy, which, again, you know, I'm not like, I'm human. I enjoy making other people happy. And so, like, that pursuit of excellence was what taught me, like, you would get noticed. Because the early work experiences that I had came from people being like, she's such a good sandwich maker. She's such a good worker, having a little chat. What is it you want to do? And I'd be like, you know, I really want to get into fashion. Well, I have a shop. Do you want to come and work in a shop? I would love to get out of making these sandwiches. I would love to work in your shop. So people start to see you. People notice excellence. They notice when you're putting your all into something and you're coming to a position or to a task with everything that you can. And the pursuit of excellence is enormously gratifying for anyone, regardless of what you're doing, just being gratitude great at where you are. But it is very different from the pursuit of perfection. Right? Because perfection is pressure. Perfection is taking somebody else's ideas and imposing them as your own. And that is not it. Excellence is when you take the thing that you're doing, and you make it as good as it can be for you. Perfection is outside gaze. And I'm totally uninterested in what you like, really, and I really mean it. And you have to get really comfortable with that because I've just got to the point in my life where I'm like, you know, what? If I am putting in 10 and I am in my pursuit of excellence and I am happy with what I'm doing, that's all right. And I might not please my husband all the time, and I might not please my kids all the time, and it might, like, piss somebody off that I say something, but I was doing my best. And you can lay your head on the pillow at night and you can be like, that was a. But perfection, that's just like, that's a fool's game. That's a fool's errand, and I'm just not part of it. I refuse to play the perfection game. Super damaging for women.
- [76:19]
C
No. Very, very well. And I think it's one of the weapons used against, like, that we use against ourselves with comparison and each other.
- [76:30]
A
Yeah, right. Yeah, absolutely. And I agree with you on that because that is, you know, you see it quite frequently. I remember being in, you know, like, my early days, I had a job where I was constantly pitted against another girl that I worked with. And, you know, we kind of, like, almost fight it out between the two of us to, like, be, you know, given the plum assignment. And I was like, one day I was like, lauren, do you enjoy this situation or do you feel as shit as I do? Like, I hate this moment. Should we just, like, figure it out and take it in turns and, like, not play this game that's being played for. And as soon as we, you know, as soon as I did that, she felt better. I felt better. We were friends for years and years and the game had stopped. Right. The idea of us two being in this constant competition and playing somebody else's or playing by somebody else's rules was completely erased. It was evaporated. And all of that tension that I felt coming into that place and all of that performative action that I. That I was putting in to meet the needs of, like, someone else just felt by the wayside.
- [77:36]
C
I'm thinking live. So this may sound. Not make sense or sound stupid. I'm thinking about how back to the idea of being on your own team and how team oriented men are and women are not so team oriented. And so I wonder, like, I'm just wondering about if that. That's part of that difficulty of just even team mentality, of the difficulty that we have of being on our own team.
- [78:05]
A
Well, it comes from scarcity. And let's be honest, like, for a long time, scarcity has been real. Right. It's like there was only one position for a woman. There was only one opportunity for a woman. So that has been trained into us. And what my point of view is is that you've got to get really honest and clear with yourself about these stories, these unwritten rules, these biases that exist and figure out, like, are they true and do they relate to me? It doesn't mean because you get something that somebody else does not. And men have the mentality of being able to be on a team because they know that both they and Jim can both be promoted because they're sitting in a room full of Jims and Johns that all got promoted and all got the thing where we have a different lived experience. And what my point of view is, is that you've got to do away with that. You've got to know that actually there is plenty of space, there is plenty of room, and if one woman does well, it doesn't take away from somebody else.
- [79:07]
C
Yeah. It was interesting because that was one of the things I was very surprised by when I worked at the White House, which was I had just that women would band together and be in support of each other. And, you know, I mean, I look back on it now and I think there were rumors. So maybe my experience was different because I wasn't doing the thing that, you know, I wasn't also being on the team of women.
- [79:39]
A
Yes, right.
- [79:40]
C
And my own choices and my own behavior. So maybe these other women saw different aspects of it. But it just was always interesting to me because there were some women who were trying to help other women. But it was predominantly. It felt like more criticism, more pushing down came from other women there.
- [80:00]
A
Yeah. And that can be very fair. But in my experience, and this is why I really want to dispel some of these myths and talk about these rules. Because unless you have an awareness of them, unless you're aware that there is a game and there are preconceived ideas and there are things that exist and ways that you're behaving that are default. They're actually nothing to do with you. They're just stuff that you've been told that you've held onto and you're unconsciously moving in a system that wasn't built for you, There is nothing you can do about it. So having an awareness of the rules, having an awareness of these old thoughts and a new way to move past them is exactly what I'm trying to teach people in this book. I'm like, let's just have a conversation about it and be honest with one another.
- [80:45]
C
I bet there are a lot of people who are going to look at their own work situations and think, do I have a Lauren? Is there a Lauren here? And do we? Do we have a Lauren conversation?
- [80:56]
A
Yeah. And can you go and have a conversation with Lauren and make it better tomorrow? Yes, you can. 1 million percent. Like, it is just, I'm telling you, it works and it works every time. And can you change the way that you think about money and can you change your relationship with it? Absolutely, as so long as you have an awareness around it. Can you start a business without being invited to all of the, you know, fancy conferences and the women's dinners and the stuff that you see on Instagram? Absolutely. Can you go out and do all of the things that you want and build all of your dreams? Absolutely. So long as you're willing to give something. And so I really took this. I was like, this needs to be a workbook. This needs to be something that people can get it and go, here's a tool that's gonna help me move forward in my life. Here's something that I can relate to. And listen, Monica, I am not an expert. I am a girl.
- [81:50]
C
Well, yes, you are.
- [81:51]
A
Well, you know what it is? I am a woman who has made a shit ton of money, right? Let's say that part outside, who is self made to the extent that we think about it in society, because a lot of people have helped me get on my way. But I have literally got to the point where it's like, I am sick of some of the stuff that is there for us. And what I want to do is just say, here are the things that worked for me. This is not, you know, like somebody sitting on a podcast going, okay, here are the, you know, step one, step two. No, it doesn't work like that. But there is a way of thinking, there is a way of behaving, and there are a set of things that are not useful for you. And if you understand that and you know better, you can just clean up and do a lot better. And I know it because I've done it. And that's what I wanted to say with this book. It's not about me saying, like, here's the way you can make a trillion dollars. I don't believe That I. I don't want anyone to feel gas lit by my information. And I am totally allergic to toxic positivity. I am just not into it. I'm not here for it. I'm here for it.
- [83:02]
C
Well, because it's not authentic. And I think that that's. You need to spend 60 seconds with you in person, listening to you, reading you, to just know you're very authentic.
- [83:13]
A
Thank you. That's the biggest compliment I could get. We love that.
- [83:17]
C
Yeah, of course. Well, I mean, I think I know for me that it was one of my goals. I think that I had set out or intentions. When I did step back out publicly 11 years ago, I think now 12. Almost 12 years ago. Wow.
- [83:37]
A
I was gonna say, is it that long? 12 years ago.
- [83:39]
C
Yeah.
- [83:40]
A
Right.
- [83:40]
C
2014 was my vanity Fair, so. But one of them was about being seen for my true self. You know, like me or don't like me. Although I am one of those people who likes people to like me, which I need to work on. I know, I know.
- [83:55]
A
Dr. Emma can't be a leader in a people. Please, Monica. The two don't work hand in hand. But that's okay, because again, it's default for a lot of women. We like to be liked, just not useful, you know? Again, it's one of those things you're like, why do I like to be liked? Is it a useful trait? It is not, and let me tell you why. The reason it's not a useful trait is because when you like to be liked, you change yourself for other people. You're not straightforward, always with what it is that you want. You go in apologizing, and the truth is, what is authentic and what is. Is pleasing for somebody else has nothing to do with you. It's like, why would you even need to think about that? You want to go in, in a way. And for people to see you is exactly who you are. And if you're trying to, like, fit and make the other person happy, they're never really getting to know you. They're getting to know the version of you that wants to please them.
- [84:58]
C
That's true. Well, I guess then I'm split. Maybe 70, 30.
- [85:01]
A
That's good. That's a good split. I mean, I might be too much. Let's be fair. I'm not everybody's cup of tea. It's okay.
- [85:12]
C
Olivia Munn was on. She was the first episode that came out last year. And she talked about having done this incredible campaign with Skims. And I don't know if you were there or part of that, because I was.
- [85:26]
A
I mean, I'm part of everything that happens, but I definitely wasn't on the shoot day. But it was an incredible, incredible campaign.
- [85:33]
C
Well, and she just. She talked a lot about how extraordinary the company was and the culture was at Skims to sort of have not pushed her, to have created this really safe space for her to do something like to come in for a campaign and to end up showing off her mastectomy scars and how much. The sort of long tail of that was so interesting, the long tail of how much that's helped people and how she's heard from people. And so I just, like, is that. Was that just a sort of a magic moment that happened, or do you feel, looking at the company and the culture that you build into a company that. Well, yeah, that makes sense that that happened.
- [86:16]
A
Yeah, it does make sense to me that that happened. I mean, that was a really special character, because when you're dealing with something that is so personal and affects so many women, and, you know, we are a company that is primarily, you know, an enormous amount of women that work at Skims, it means something, right? It goes beyond when you're just doing, like, a really fun campaign for a new product. I think that when things resonate deeply with customers, it's because it resonates deeply with the company first. And I think that we did a really good job being thoughtful about that. But Olivia is also so generous in how she comes in. To be able to speak about that with a level of openness and honesty that is just, like. I don't want to say, just refreshing. It's so special when you have somebody that is willing to be that vulnerable on behalf of so many people. And it just. I feel like, you know, we do big, splashy campaigns all the time at Skims, and I get texts from people that, oh, my God, I can't believe you have such and such. That was probably the campaign that I got the most texts about and that our customer service were inundated because people felt so seen. And I give her, actually all of the credit because she did a beautiful job in being so. So honest about it and so open with people.
- [87:47]
C
Yeah. Yeah. No, it was really. So, as her friend, what an amazing woman. So proud of her.
- [87:52]
A
Yeah, I bet.
- [87:53]
C
She's an extraordinary. She is an extraordinary woman. She's also very smart in business.
- [87:57]
A
She's really smart. She makes a really good.
- [87:59]
C
I keep telling her she should have a fund. I'm like, have a fund and have one really low entry that could be me.
- [88:05]
A
Look at you. There you are talking about the money. It's really working, Monica. I think that's the book,
- [88:12]
C
Emma. So the last question I ask everybody is if there's anything that you're working on reclaiming right now.
- [88:19]
A
If I'm working on reclaiming anything, it's a sense of ownership around my time. Because I'm very aware, you know, I'm 40. Am I 42 or am I 43? You know?
- [88:31]
C
Well, my dossier said 43.
- [88:33]
A
Thank you. Thank you. Okay, well, I guess I am, then. Thanks for ruining that one. Okay, so I am 43, and I am so aware of time and how finite it is and how precious it is. And when you have four little kids, you know, it's been so important to me because, you know, when I get home, my habit is that I keep my cell phone in my bag. And so the bag goes down and, you know, it's easy. There's, like, living, breathing humans that need your attention. And so there has to be, like, a moment for that. But I've just become so aware of how precious time is. And so when I do my plans and, you know, when I set out my vision for the year, I really think about it in moments and time because I'm trying to figure out, like, how do I want to get to the end of this year and feel, and what's going to help me feel like that? And so it's really plotting out these times where I'm gonna be. Like, this year, I'm going on a girls trip to Capri, and that's, like, five days, and it feels really extravagant. And I'm like, guys, it's five days in 365 that will be, like, memories for the whole next year. And what is it that I want to do with each of my kids? And how purposeful can I. And should I be about the time I spend down to, like, who and what podcast am I gonna go on? Because, well, you know, it's a lot of time. We spent a couple of hours sitting here. I don't wanna waste my time with some lady that I don't like. Like, I wanna be in a room with somebody that's interesting and interested. And so I'm trying to reclaim a sense of ownership around my time and to be, like, super purposeful with it. And that's the biggest focus for me.
- [90:18]
C
Oh, thank you so much.
- [90:20]
A
Thank you. This was a pleasure.
- [90:22]
C
Oh, ditto.
- [90:23]
A
You were totally worth the time.
- [90:24]
C
Oh, God. Cute.