Gabrielle Union (2:34)

I stuck my thumb until I was 12.

Monica Lewinsky (2:36)

Okay. I had a what I called Aosca, which is a pacifier, till I was eight. So. But I somehow, um.

Gabrielle Union (2:43)

Yeah, I still have a softie, though. I'm gonna give it up. My teeth are straight, but I got my softy.

Monica Lewinsky (2:52)

You know what? We need it sometimes. Sometimes you need a softie. Yeah, I was thinking about. So we met in 2019 at the Vanity Fair Oscar dinner. And we had this, like, great connect with Regina Hall. I couldn't remember exactly what we talked about, but I was. But I was like, oh, yeah. Well, we exchanged numbers, so I know that meant it was a good. Like, I remember that feeling. And I'm always happy when I see you and Dwayne there because I feel like, oh, okay, Touchstone people that I.

Gabrielle Union (3:22)

You have someone to go to in those rooms.

Monica Lewinsky (3:24)

Yes, exactly. Which is hard because. Because I don't. I, as my brother jokes, I get a plus zero.

Gabrielle Union (3:30)

So, like, Well, I. Listen, we used to not get plus once. And you had to hope that your friend also got invited.

Monica Lewinsky (3:38)

Exactly.

Gabrielle Union (3:39)

And then when I started getting plus ones, I just brought, like, you know. Yeah. My friends who maybe didn't always get plus ones or invited at all.

Monica Lewinsky (3:46)

Yeah, exactly. So it's just. But it is, It's. It. I always feel, whenever I see you guys, I'm like, oh, okay, good people. Like, exactly. Exactly. You do so much. Aside from all your acting, but you do so much advocacy and activism work, and you and Duane have led so many important societal conversations that I think really have helped people see how to think about different things and talk about different things. And you've got a new. A new project that you are. What's the right way to say it? It's like, I guess it's a new message that you're helping to amplify. And I was thinking about, there's that.

Dr. Sophia Noori (4:27)

Great.

Monica Lewinsky (4:27)

I'm going to read it because I'll mess it up. And who wants to mess up? Maya Angelou. Right. But she said, or wrote that as soon as healing takes place, go out and heal somebod else. And so you're now doing this in your partnership with Nima Health.

Gabrielle Union (4:43)

Yes.

Dr. Sophia Noori (4:43)

Right.

Gabrielle Union (4:44)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (4:44)

And so we're trying something new on the. On the podcast today, where later on, Dr. Sophia Noori from Nima Health is gonna join the two of us. And since we're three girls with ptsd, we're gonna chat it up.

Gabrielle Union (4:58)

Yes, yes.

Monica Lewinsky (5:00)

But I selfishly, I just. I wanted to have a little bit of time with just you first. And I think there's so many things that we could chat on in terms of. I was thinking about your acting, that the 25th anniversary at bring it on was just now, and the millennial producers on the show were telling me how culturally important it is as a Gen Xer. Like, I know. And interestingly, you know, kind of. I don't know if it started, but cultural appropriation like that, we really weren't Talking about or calling out. Right. Not at all was a big part. So, I mean, how do you view that and your role and how do you see that now kind of 25 years on?

Gabrielle Union (5:47)

I mean, I think it was such an important movie at the time. And now you have three generations who are, have touched it. Right. And so you're seeing grandparents, you know, and their kids and their kids, like, all watching it together and taking something away. And what I hear from, you know, the grandparents who, you know, were in the theaters back in the day is that they felt like finally someone was like, shedding a light on the rape and pillage of culture and community and parts, body parts, thoughts, inventions, and finally giving credit where credit was due. And that, you know, when you steal someone else's intellectual property, you don't deserve to win. And there was always, like, at the time, there was all this conversation about who should have really won, you know, this cheerleading competition, should it have been the Clovers or the Toros? But in a morality tale, you should never win when you've done right. You know, you've had. When you've exhibited piss poor behavior, no matter how much you think you've learned, because the damage that has been done will never outweigh your acknowledgement or your apology. You know what I mean? So having the team of black and brown girls win using their own work felt so freeing and liberating and joyous for so many people, so many underdogs who've been in the that position. And so it was, it was exciting then, the reaction, and it's exciting now because we, we created something that stands the test of time.

Monica Lewinsky (7:32)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (7:32)

Now, some jokes didn't age that well, but, but unfortunately, it's still relevant.

Monica Lewinsky (7:38)

And then also too, it was, I was like, oh, we could also be talking about the fact I loved learning this about you, that you had been interested in law, but then you had an internship that sort of took you into your. Is that right?

Gabrielle Union (7:52)

Yes, derailed my legal, my legal career even begin. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (7:56)

Yeah. And so then, yeah, I was like, I was thinking about. Okay, well, I think you, you chose a much better internship than I did.

Gabrielle Union (8:04)

So it's a little more lucrative, I guess, you know. Yeah, worked out.

Monica Lewinsky (8:09)

Exactly, exactly. I got the short end of the stick there. But, but really, since I'm, I'm sort of a junkie when it comes to self exploration, I, I hope you don't mind jumping into when you turned 50.

Gabrielle Union (8:23)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (8:24)

So like many people have parties or plastic surgery, and you did a really unique thing of you went to Africa, right? Four countries in Africa and you made a documentary, right? And it's Gabrielle Union my journey to 50. Is that right? Okay, good. And so what were you hoping to explore and find there with that?

Gabrielle Union (8:51)

Every time I set foot in the continent, I. I reemerge. I am reborn. And I get little. Little pieces of myself. I reclaim them. And I wanted my friends and my family to experience that same thing. And I wanted to hit a couple countries that I'd never been to or spots that I'd never been to. And so I gathered, you know, some of the closest people to me that were to, you know, fly. Fly to Africa. And we started in Tanzania, and we kicked off the big, like, one of the big party celebrations there with the Maasai, and then we went to Ghana, and I wanted to take my family to Elmina Castle, which was the last place our enslaved ancestors were held before they were put on ships. Oh, wow. You know, during the Middle Passage and onto their enslavement in various parts of the Americas. For me, it is a very haunted, occupied space that is incredibly sacred. And if you're quiet enough, you. You can hear our ancestors speaking to us. And sometimes it feels like a warning, sometimes it feels like protection, sometimes it feels like encouragement. But they're speaking to us, and too many of us aren't listening. And I wanted my family and my friends to be able to have the opportunity to listen. And when you can hear them, you can really, truly be in touch with yourself. And then we went to Namibia. My friend Louis Hamilton had gone, like, a couple months before with a group of friends, and he was like, yo, Gab, you have to go. It's life changing. And it's where the desert meets the ocean and it's these beautiful red sand dunes. Oh, wow. And it's. It's just. It's just incredible. And we were able to randomly, not a part of the. The schedule, meet the. The. The Himba people.

Monica Lewinsky (11:06)

Okay, wait, say that again. I don't.

Gabrielle Union (11:09)

I. Himba.

Monica Lewinsky (11:10)

Himba. Okay, I've not.

Gabrielle Union (11:11)

I'm pronouncing that.

Monica Lewinsky (11:12)

No, no, I've never heard. I've never heard of that before. Heard of that group of people before.

Gabrielle Union (11:16)

So we. Before we went and they welcomed us in, and it was.

Monica Lewinsky (11:24)

Because, you know, it's magical.

Gabrielle Union (11:25)

It's like a tour guide or something. You know what I mean? And it was truly. They saw us driving in, didn't know us other than clearly that we're probably Westerners, and invited us in and. And. And embraced us into Their homes, into their community. And we just got. It. Had a chance to learn, and a couple of the young were trying to learn English, so it was just a. I think it was, you know, a chance to. To practice, but it was. That was life affirming.

Monica Lewinsky (11:58)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (11:59)

And gave. Gave us a whole new world perspective. And then we ended in Soweto in South Africa. And, you know, I'd already been to Joburg before, and I'd. I'd been all over Durban, but I'd never been to Soweto. And. And I'd never been to Cape Town.

Monica Lewinsky (12:17)

Okay.

Gabrielle Union (12:18)

And it was just the trip of a lifetime. And each spot brought our family closer, my friends, my friendships closer. And it was exactly what I wanted for my 50th to reclaim myself.

Monica Lewinsky (12:32)

Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's amazing. It's so interesting what you're saying, too. Jurnee Smollett was on just a couple weeks ago. Me too. And we were talking about sort of transgenerational trauma and that, you know, and she was talking about where that. That connection to ancestry comes in for her in her work. And I just think what a beautiful thing that you did about. And the way you talk about it, too, of just the listening.

Gabrielle Union (13:00)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (13:00)

You know, I think it's so hard in today's world where there's so much noise.

Gabrielle Union (13:08)

How do you cut through it? Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (13:11)

You know, and that's a real. What a. I'm gonna give all my friends shit that they have. They haven't taken me on a trip where I get to listen you.

Gabrielle Union (13:20)

Normally we're doing keg stands, so it's not like I wish I was. You know, I had thought about this before, but for my 50th, I just knew I wanted something different.

Monica Lewinsky (13:29)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (13:29)

Because we do. Like, my birthday's around Halloween, so it's like we always do a theme party and it's always just got bigger and bigger and bigger. And we were kind of took it around the world and I was like, let's take it back to the motherland and back to ourselves, back to the source. And. And I think this could be a little bit more profound and meaningful and life changing and life affirming for all of us.

Monica Lewinsky (13:53)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (13:54)

And my mom, you know, my mom had never been to. To Africa, and my mom's sister, my Aunt Katie, and we were. We were in Ghana at the river of no Return, where they would, you know, after basically marching our ancestors the distance from New York to Florida, they would put them in. In this river to clean them up and they, you know, lather them in. In grease to. To create the appearance of. Of good health, to. To get the highest dollar. And as we were walking down towards this river, my mom falls out. And my mom is late 70s. And I'm thinking, oh, this is it. Oh, my mom. My mom. My mom just died. And everyone's any. And this is all. They, you know, the cameras are rolling, so this is all being caught.

Monica Lewinsky (14:41)

Oh, my gosh.

Gabrielle Union (14:42)

And very clearly, I heard my grandmother's voice who's been gone many, many years. And she's all right. She's all right. And she, you know, she took a. She took a break, she came back, she came to. They brought her numbers, you know, within. Back to within reason. And she was like, take me to the river.

Monica Lewinsky (15:04)

Oh.

Gabrielle Union (15:04)

And it was like at that point, I'm. I'm already crying. We're not even at the river yet. And we get into the river and everyone's kind of in their own sort of sp.

Monica Lewinsky (15:14)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (15:14)

Meditating, praying, thinking, you know, whatever each individual was sort of doing in that moment. And I kind of had lost track of where my husband was, and I just. And it was this beautiful sunny day. It was hot, beautiful sunny day. And my husband's in the river and I just hear him scream. And I look over and his arms are outstretched like. Like Christ. And the sky opens up and it. This downpour out of nowhere. Oh. Oh, my. And it was the most cleansing. It was like something out of a movie. And I mean, luckily we caught it and he's just standing there and he's being, like, cleansed, if you will. But everyone was very, very emotional and it felt otherworldly. But again, it's like when you listen the ancestors and you call upon them, they show up.

Monica Lewinsky (16:05)

Yeah. I'm just really intrigued in my. In myself right now because I'm feeling so much emotion from this and this is not my history. And I don't know if it's just because, you know, just a couple weeks ago, really in it were journey, but it just is. I just, I. I feel grateful for. And I don't even know you, that, like, we just had that great connection and text and stuff, but I just. I feel grateful for you and your family that you were able to do that. And I'm just also. I'm so sorry for that history.

Gabrielle Union (16:37)

Yeah. You know, I mean, it's just.

Monica Lewinsky (16:40)

I'm Jewish and so there's. It's a very different history, but there's a transgenerational history that we carry of being othered and being devalued. And so it's. That's not what I'm. I'm just sort of feeling here.

Gabrielle Union (16:55)

It's. It's because there. There is such a shared history of oppression. Yeah. And degradation and violence and what the ancestors have endured. I feel the spirit that I feel it truly is no more. No more, no more, no more. They want so much better and more for us. They want us to know peace. There was. This is a billion years ago. It was the Bad Boys 2 press tour, and we were in Munich. And, you know, I'd never been to Germany. My dad had been going for, you know, forever since the Vietnam War. My dad somehow got sent to Europe instead of Vietnam, but always loved it. We always. If there was a hofbra, we were at that hofbra. Like, you know, like bros. You know, we had the beer steins and the whole thing. And he would always go. He had spin. He still had friends over there. And so when I was over there, I was like, I want to. You know, I want to go to Oktoberfest. We were there in October. I want some leader hoes, and I want. I want to experience the whole thing. And I remember asking how far Dachau was, and they're like, oh, it's like, 45 minutes. I'm like, I'd like. I'd like to go. If we can fit that into the schedule. And I'm like, how much time do you think we would need? You know? And this young kid that was like, our driver slash security was like, I don't know, like, 45 minutes.

Monica Lewinsky (18:29)

I thought.

Gabrielle Union (18:29)

I guess maybe it's smaller than.

Monica Lewinsky (18:31)

Right.

Gabrielle Union (18:32)

I had thought. We get out there, it's massive. And I'm like, 45 minutes. Like.

Monica Lewinsky (18:37)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (18:38)

But when you speed through your history, you are. You are bound to repeat your history. When you.

Monica Lewinsky (18:44)

Wait, will you say that again?

Dr. Sophia Noori (18:45)

Sorry.

Gabrielle Union (18:45)

When you speed through your history.

Monica Lewinsky (18:47)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (18:47)

You're bound to.

Monica Lewinsky (18:49)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (18:49)

Repeat that history. And when you don't fully understand the enormity of the. Of the. Of the destruction of a whole people, you were bound to repeat that.

Monica Lewinsky (19:04)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (19:05)

And we spent. I was like, six, seven hours.

Monica Lewinsky (19:09)

Wow.

Gabrielle Union (19:10)

And, you know, as you're walking through the space where the gas chambers.

Monica Lewinsky (19:15)

Yeah.

Dr. Sophia Noori (19:16)

Were.

Gabrielle Union (19:18)

If you listen. If you quiet yourself, you can hear the horror. You can feel it. It's visceral. But then there's the people. 45 minutes.

Monica Lewinsky (19:32)

Yeah. But thank you for witnessing.

Gabrielle Union (19:34)

Thank you for going and witnessing. When it's. Never forget. It should be never forget. And that goes for all history for all history for all history. And, you know, what we see now is the erasure and the forgetting and the repetition.

Monica Lewinsky (19:54)

Yeah. It's interesting because I think the. I know people in the medical and science community never doubted we'd have another pandemic. But as a layperson, even though my dad's a doctor, but I was like, oh, we'll never have another science and medicine. And the fact that we had another pandemic after a hundred years totally changed my landscape around. Like, oh, this other shit can happen again. It's not there. There is no gone for good kind of a thing. And so it is. I just. I'm so inspired by. By what you did in your trips. And I'm like, I do not vacation like that.

Gabrielle Union (20:43)

Normally we don't either. But it's like I needed something more.

Monica Lewinsky (20:47)

Yeah, I needed a lot more.

Gabrielle Union (20:49)

And, like, there was one year we were going on vacation, and I was like, I want to retrace the migration of the moors. And everyone's like, what? I'm like, Portugal. Like, I'm like, you know, we can, you know. And, yeah, that got voted down. But I still want to go, even if I have to go by myself. Tracee Ellis inspired me to, like, just travel by myself and be fabulous by myself.

Monica Lewinsky (21:15)

It's so great. I like to. I mean, as a woman, I feel it's annoying. You have to be a little more cautious, so you can't quite do as much. But I like to travel on my own because then I don't have to do shit I don't want to do. So. But have you thought about. I mean, I know Tracee Ellis Ross is doing her show, but have you thought about doing a travel book or something?

Gabrielle Union (21:39)

I had been working with Sunny from the View on a travel show where we go around the world talking about beauty and different ideas and techniques and theories about beauty and wellness in different parts of the world. Yeah, I'm very passionate about it. I feel it. Whether it's a TV show or just you see it on my social media, or it's just up here and we sit next to each other at a Chili's during happy hour.

Monica Lewinsky (22:13)

And I'll share with you.

Gabrielle Union (22:14)

I'll regal you with my.

Monica Lewinsky (22:15)

Exactly.

Gabrielle Union (22:16)

Travel tales.

Dr. Sophia Noori (22:16)

Exactly.

Gabrielle Union (22:17)

I just. I love it. And I love. I love being educated. I love walking into situations, very humble and quiet and just listening and observing and sitting at the feet of masters who can, you know, fill you with so much history and knowledge and. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that's like my nerdy. Part.

Monica Lewinsky (22:36)

I like it. It's like all the people I really like and respect have a nerdy part. It's the because that's passion, right? Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. Welcome back for another month of our Reclaiming Listening Club. I am excited to unveil this month's pick. So let me introduce you to the Gilded Heiress, a dazzling tale that whisks us away to the glittering world of 1890s New York society, where ambition and old money collide. When Elizabeth Rothschild, a self made woman with a mysterious past, threatens the carefully guarded social hierarchy, Manhattan's elite families must decide whether to embrace change or cling to tradition. Trust me, the narrator's interpretation of these complex characters is absolutely masterful. Also, can you tell that I recently binged all seasons of the Gilded Age? For those of you who've been with us from the start, you know it's fun to listen along with your friends to the same great stories. And if you're just joining us now, you've picked the perfect moment. There's something special about knowing we're all hearing the same voices, sharing the same dramatic moments and probably all gasping at the same plot twists. The best part? You can dive into a great title anywhere, anytime. I actually listened to half of it while packing for a weekend trip and let me tell you, folding laundry has never been more entertaining. I can't wait for you to listen to Elizabeth's journey and all the delicious drama of New York's high society. Ready to fall in love with more amazing stories together? Head to audible.com reclaiming and sign up for a free 30 day trial. That's audible.com reclaiming there's this I'm going to read this long quote if that's okay, that I read from when you came back from your trip. Or maybe you've said it on your trip, but it was everything up to 50 in my life has been centered around trauma. If my heart was here, trauma surrounded it. Something about this trip and learning about self has made me feel like the next 50 years anything is possible. I can do anything. My birthday was in Zanzibar and it was the most full I felt in the absence of trauma. In the past when people have rallied around me, it's been because of trauma. Not having that trauma center stage, I was able to be loved fully differently, which that really moved me. And you know, and I know there's the connection to what you're doing with Nima Health too. And when Tarana Burke was on the show, she talked about taught Me, when asking people about trauma, to not always ask them to go back into it. And I know you're very open with some of the trauma that's led you to who you are today, but I don't know how you're feeling today. So do you feel okay talking about it? Do you want me to summarize? Okay.

Gabrielle Union (25:38)

No, no, no. It's. For so long, I thought I was no longer disassociated, and I. A couple years ago, I did my girlfriend Octavia Spencer's show, Truth be Told, and that season was about sex trafficking in the Bay Area. And I'm gonna not give spoilers in.

Monica Lewinsky (25:59)

Case someone wants to watch it. I haven't watched it yet, so.

Gabrielle Union (26:02)

But there was a very pivotal scene to. That takes place, a violent scene that takes place on the steps of the Alameda County Superior Court, which is where I gave my grand jury testimony against my rapist.

Monica Lewinsky (26:15)

Right.

Gabrielle Union (26:16)

And the five months that I was filming that show, I was coming home crying. I'm not a crier. I'm pretty stoic. Turns out I was disassociated, but I was crying. And with each episode, it was like some little piece got revealed that my mind had covered.

Monica Lewinsky (26:38)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (26:39)

So I could survive. Yep. And I. They're like, okay, girl, you are 50. I think it's time to give you a fuller picture. And I was re. It. It's like it just happened every day. Just felt like it. It was minutes, seconds ago.

Monica Lewinsky (26:54)

And you were. You were 19 when the.

Gabrielle Union (26:56)

I was 19 when it originally happened. So I was at a. A summer job in between my freshman and sophomore years of college, and I got a job at Pela Shoe Source with my girlfriends. And because you don't actually have to help anybody. And we were lazy.

Monica Lewinsky (27:11)

I worked in a toy store.

Dr. Sophia Noori (27:13)

Yes.

Gabrielle Union (27:13)

You know, and my girlfriend's. There was a Garth Brooks concert, and we were all very much into Garth, but as the black girl, they were like, you don't really want to go, do you? And I was like, wait, wait, really? That's how I interpreted it.

Dr. Sophia Noori (27:30)

Okay.

Monica Lewinsky (27:30)

Wow. I'm sorry.

Gabrielle Union (27:32)

You know, I love friends in low places. I am the friend in a low place. And so. But I was like, I'll cover for you guys. I'll work for you guys, so you guys can go. And while. Like, while we were, you know, getting ready to close early because we were terrible employees. We had already done.

Monica Lewinsky (27:50)

As all young people.

Gabrielle Union (27:51)

As all young people are. We'd already done the bank drop and everything. There was very little money. And as we're closing. I was vacuuming early, and I see this man come in, and everything in my body said, run out the back. Run out the back. But he was a black man. And I was like, I'm not going to do this to this black man in front of this young white woman that I was working with. I'm like, I'm not gonna fall for this terrible stereotype. This is stupid. These are my own people. So I ignored that thing in my body that said run. And a short time later, I heard the woman I was working with yell for me to come to the front. And it was something about her voice. And again, my body was like, run. But I didn't want to be rude. And you know how we're conditioned. Don't be.

Monica Lewinsky (28:45)

Oh, yeah, be a good girl.

Gabrielle Union (28:47)

Be a good girl. Be a nice girl. And I walked to the front, and he's holding the gun on her. And in my head, it was just like, you could have just ran. Yeah. But of course he's angry because we. There was no money. And so he tells us to go into the back. And mind you, about two weeks before, Oprah had done a special on what to do in case you were a victim of a violent crime. And I had watched. I was religious about Oprah. And she had a law enforcement. A member of law enforcement talking about what to do. And one of the things that he said was, don't let them take you to a second location. So as he's telling us to go into the stock room, I'm like, is this a second location? I remember, like, wondering, and I'm like. Because the whole thing was, if they take you to a second location, they're going to kill you. So we had. There were all these boxes that were stacked up that we were supposed to put away, didn't put away. And the woman that I was working with had been robbed before at that store. And she's pissed, and she's knocking the boxes off, and she's. She's, you know, she's cussing, but the gun is on me. I'm closest to him. She's leading. And I'm like, oh, no, I'm really going to die. I'm really going to die. Oh, my God. So he takes us to the back room, and he tells us to get undressed. And I was like, oh, I guess we're just going to be naked and dead. And then he tells us to go into the bathroom. And I thought, okay, maybe he's going to let us live.

Monica Lewinsky (30:15)

Right.

Gabrielle Union (30:17)

He just wants time to get away, maybe. And we get into the bathroom. We didn't lock the door. We just, you know.

Monica Lewinsky (30:24)

Well, yeah, no, no, you're not even thinking.

Gabrielle Union (30:27)

And, you know, a little like a couple seconds later, he opens the door and he was like, no, you come out. And at that point, I was like, oh, shit. I'm about to get raped.

Monica Lewinsky (30:36)

Oh.

Gabrielle Union (30:36)

Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, Gabrielle. And at some point, he very calmly asked me to hand him his gun, because it's like I'm watching the whole thing, like, above myself.

Monica Lewinsky (30:50)

Yep.

Gabrielle Union (30:51)

And I'm watching myself be raped on the. On the ground. And then when he was like, hey, can you hand me my gun? It was like this. The self up here and the self getting raped slammed into each other. And I grabbed the gun and as best as I could, like, I knew that I had to pop the clip in, but I ended up shooting into the ground. I grabbed the gun and tried to spin around and shoot him as I was kind of falling away and missed. I literally shot into the ground next to me. And then in my brain, it's like, click it seven times. Like, it's a revolver. It was not a revolver. And my finger got caught in between the trigger, and I'm trying to turn it away from my face, and he's just pounding. He's just punching my face, just punching my face. And eventually he is able to get the gun away, and he's like, nah, I'm gonna have to kill you, bitch. And I'd had my boyfriend at the time's chain on, and I was like, here, take the chain. It's worth more than what you got. And then very calmly asked me how to get out, and I pointed towards the back exit, and he left. But that whole time, I was fighting for the gun. I'm screaming for the girl to come out, like, you know, screaming for her. Obviously, we don't know what we're gonna do in a traumatic situation. She did not come out. But when he left, I'm just. I'm. Yeah, I don't even know what the right word is. Hysterical would be a tiny piece of it. In shock.

Monica Lewinsky (32:24)

Wrecked.

Gabrielle Union (32:25)

Wrecked. Like nothing bad has ever happened to me. I've. I'm like, bigger, badder, better. Like, you have to be, you know, a. AAA student to be, you know, so they don't think you're trash or stupid. Like, I. You had to be perfect. And I. I did a great job up until this point. And eventually she comes out, calls the police. And my sister, my dad had been at, like, the hardware Store. Okay. That was across the way. And I guess they heard the. Or saw the sirens and whatever knew that I was at work. And they came over because it was like they. They were there right when the police were there. And I. My. My older sister was in college studying criminal justice, and she knew the police codes. And my dad was, like, embarrassed that I was hysterical. And he's like, calm down, calm down, calm down. And I watched my sister whisper to my dad, and his face just. Just like, I died. And I. I mean, I had. And that just wrecked me again. And that was day one. And the rest of the. The. The next 33 years has been surviving and figuring out how to find peace consistently and just knowing what that feels like in my body.

Monica Lewinsky (33:53)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (33:54)

Like, real peace. I've had moments, and now I'm looking to string more moments together into a life for the next. You know, my grandmother lived to be. My great grandma lived to be 110. She was on Donahue.

Monica Lewinsky (34:13)

Wait, I'm like. I'm like. I'm, like, still in your story, and now I'm hearing you say 110, but I just wanna.

Gabrielle Union (34:20)

I just know that there's so much more life.

Monica Lewinsky (34:22)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (34:23)

And I know that I cannot. My body cannot sustain this kind of trauma and terror for another 60 years. Like, I. Yeah, I don't want to. But also, it causes health problems.

Monica Lewinsky (34:38)

There's a toll.

Gabrielle Union (34:40)

There is a toll. A steep toll.

Monica Lewinsky (34:42)

Yeah. I just. I'm so sorry that happened to you. You know, as. As women, we're sort of always that, like, when you're a kid, it's. Don't take candy from the street. You know, you're afraid of being kidnapped. And as a woman, once you start to develop, you're afraid of being. It's hard to say the word raped. And I've had unwanted sexual experiences, but they were not as traumatic as that. And I'm just. I'm so sorry. Like, I'm so sorry you went through that.

Gabrielle Union (35:13)

No, it's just.

Monica Lewinsky (35:15)

It's.

Gabrielle Union (35:16)

It's.

Monica Lewinsky (35:16)

And I know it's so. I know from my own, you know, different chapters of trauma that the, you know, the ability to talk about it is important because it helps other people. And there's, you know, it's like you find your way of being able to talk about it. And for me, it's like, disconnect from it in certain ways. But then there's. There are the moments where you, you know, I'm sure you've had other people, like, reaffirm that disassociating and dropping back in. You know, I had that. I was almost carjacked and someone had a gun. And then there were four people. And it was that whole thing of like all of a sudden, you know, and I could see. And that was how I knew there were four people. Because when I started to do some of the healing work, I had had the memory file of like seeing down and it was, oh, the car doors are being pulled and it's four different people. And when they start pulling the car doors, I dropped in and was like, oh, I can drive away, you know, like, oh, be present, you know, and so it's just. But that is not the same as the body violation and.

Gabrielle Union (36:31)

But they're all violations.

Monica Lewinsky (36:33)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (36:34)

And everyone's threshold for trauma is different. And I remember I went to ucla and when I got there, I went. After this, I transferred and I went to the mental health services and I was in group therapy and individual therapy. And I remember in group once I told my story. There's so many other people, mainly women, but there were some guys in there as well. Felt like their stories of rape weren't. And I'm using my finger quotes. Legitimate.

Monica Lewinsky (37:06)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (37:07)

Because mine was a stranger with a gun.

Monica Lewinsky (37:09)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (37:10)

And I remember saying, no, no, no, no, no.

Monica Lewinsky (37:13)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (37:13)

All of our rapes are legitimate. Whether it's a stranger or someone you know, or there's a weapon or there's not a weapon. If something happens to you that you do not want to happen to you. Yeah, that. That's it. Yeah. Or if there's a power inequity, like there's. There's. But it's like there's so many sources where people are trying to rob folks of. Of their experience and trying to place labels on. On an experience that they've never felt or. Or have first person accounting of that makes you think you're crazy.

Monica Lewinsky (37:53)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (37:53)

And there's so much blame.

Monica Lewinsky (37:55)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (37:55)

Which is why, like, when I first got microphones put in my face and I first became a little bit more known, I realized that I could use this time with a microphone in my face to talk about dumb, or I could talk about this life changing event and how I'm surviving so other people don't feel like you're alone because you very much feel like you're on an island with your trauma and no one could possibly understand. And when the more you talk about it, the more literally the word the phrase was me too. Yeah. Before it became a hashtag, that's literally what people would say. Hey, girl, that Happened to me too, you know, and it would. There were so many me toos that it just gave me wings to, you know, lobby state legislatures for more funding for rape crisis centers, to, you know, clear the backlog of rape kids to be President Obama's advisory committee for violence against women and women and children. Like. It. It gave me what I needed to, while disassociated, talk about my trauma and try to find help for myself and other people. And I realize now that if I hadn't been disassociated, I probably wouldn't be here. It's too. It was too much.

Monica Lewinsky (39:19)

Same girl.

Gabrielle Union (39:20)

It was too much. Yeah, it was too much.

Monica Lewinsky (39:22)

It's really interesting you said something before that was exactly my experience of. I had. I feel like I said this in this chair before, but it. It is relevant of the. I had been with my current therapist for several years, and something come up, and I was like, you know, yeah, well, I was a virgin when I was 19. I was like, well, technically I was 14, but that didn't count, you know. And she was like, what do you mean? That didn't. You know? And I was like, well, I was at camp, and it was a camp counselor, and I was 14 and he was 18, but then turned out he was actually 21. And I mean, the whole thing. But I was like, well, I wanted to be there. And she was like, did you want to have sex with him? Did you talk about having sex? And I said no. And he stopped after I told him to stop, you know, but it had happened, you know, and she was like, well, that's. That's an unwanted sexual experience. And I was like, no, no, no, no, that's not. That's not that thing. And we didn't have language for that. And I think we. We are always, you know, that somehow we're not given permission to just own our trauma in a. You know, and that is part of what's hard is until we're able to do that, we can't really heal all of it. But I, I. What was interesting to me and what you were saying before about it coming at different points, like, why. I was just saying that story is because I was in my 40s, and that when that happened and it had been a few years, like, after things had started to change for me and people were seeing me differently and I was beginning to reclaim my narrative. And I look at that now and I realize is there was no space for the other trauma until my big trauma started to heal. And that's what I think is complicated is like, everybody is walking around with trauma.

Gabrielle Union (41:26)

Everybody. You know, and we're not all perfect victims.

Monica Lewinsky (41:29)

No, no, no. It's. I. I think of it. I'm so curious. And we'll bring Dr. Norian soon. But I. I think of it all. I consider it modern trauma. I think that's this era that we're in of, like, this is now gonna be something we talk about. This is now gonna be something that people are able to address, you know, because people like you are talking about it, doing your advocacy work. I mean, it's. But I think it is. And trying to strip away all the shame around it. I mean, you've been really brave in the way you've talked about it, too, because you first shared this story, right, in an op ed.

Gabrielle Union (42:11)

Well, the first time I publicly talked about it, I was, gosh, like, 27 or so.

Monica Lewinsky (42:16)

Okay.

Gabrielle Union (42:17)

And I'd gotten the COVID of this new magazine called Savoy Magazine. And in this cover story is my first time ever being on the COVID of anything. And it was like my cover story. And it's like introducing Gabrielle Union. And that's towards the beginning of my career, certainly at the beginning of my. My film career. And it just felt important to tell the story because I was working on a show called City of Angels, and one of the storylines was that there was a serial rapist targeting the women in the hospital. And I went to our showrunner and our writers, and I was like. I begged. I'm like, please, I can't. My character can't be raped. Because, like, each week I'm looking at the script like, am I? Is my character? And I'm like, I can't. I can't. I'm not there. I can't. Yeah, I can't. And in me advocating for myself in terms of the story, I felt like it was. I could advocate for myself in print. And it's like, if I'm introducing the world to who I am, this is a part of who I am. And if you think you know me and you think you could put me in a box, you can't. There are layers, and they're complex, and they're not all easy to digest. But if you really see me, you need to see all of me, and that's what I want. And so I first talked about it then, but it's like, every time I've talked about it, it's like people decide that I'm not a rape survivor, and it's like. So every time I talk about it, it's Like, I've never said it before.

Monica Lewinsky (43:52)

Oh, my gosh. Give me those people's names.

Gabrielle Union (43:56)

And they're like, what?

Dr. Sophia Noori (43:57)

What?

Gabrielle Union (43:57)

No, you're so. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And so over the years, as I. As, you know, as the story comes up where I went on Oprah and I talked about it then, or I mentioned it in a speech I gave, and it comes up again, but I've never not talked about it. It's just as it comes in and out of the public consciousness, it's always a surprise because they've decided what victims look like. And I don't fit handily into a victim box. And I'm like, girl, I am in a massive box.

Dr. Sophia Noori (44:31)

You have no idea.

Gabrielle Union (44:32)

Yeah, like, you know, and I try to be. I try to talk about the journey to being a survivor, but there's many days I'm in a victim space and I can't advocate for myself, much less anyone else. And on those days, I look to other people to lead and other people to give me the inspiration that I hope I give to someone. And Tarana's been amazing. Alyssa Milano. There's been so many very outspoken women and men, but really my main source are just regular people on the street. And it's every race, age, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation. It is a. Yeah, it is a grand equalizer.

Monica Lewinsky (45:21)

Yeah. Equal. Equal opportunity.

Gabrielle Union (45:25)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (45:25)

No, it's. It's really.

Dr. Sophia Noori (45:30)

I. I'm.

Monica Lewinsky (45:30)

If this feels, like, too personal, then.

Gabrielle Union (45:33)

Don'T go for it.

Monica Lewinsky (45:34)

I. I'm just curious because I think, you know, I have. I think there. I. I think I feel I'm in a different place now, but for a very long time, I think that I felt like my trauma was too big for someone else to ask someone else to try to hold it in relationship. And so I just wonder, like, what that's been like for you. How. How does Dwayne hold that for you? Does he hold that for you? I make that assumption just from the energy I felt between you two. But if that doesn't. I don't know if that's too personal.

Gabrielle Union (46:13)

No, no. I mean, I. I had a boyfriend when this happened, and it. It happened to him. Like, rape happens to communities, it happens to families. You know what I mean? It's. It. 1. Rape impacts a community. And he. I mean, we were kids, and his. His instinct was to coddle. My instinct was to rage. My instinct was violent. My instinct was fighting. My instinct, like, physically, I wanted to hit people, not him, necessarily, but, like, there was so much rage and so that's a lot, you know, and I'm. And I'm still trying to go to college. I'm still trying to play sports. I'm still trying to become an actress.

Monica Lewinsky (47:02)

A few years post.

Gabrielle Union (47:04)

I'm a, you know, like a kid. Like, I'm used to my dad telling me what to do, and so trying to go from that to living with a man who's doesn't know what to do. And his. His instinct is to. To, like, you know, baby or coddle. And my instinct is to break free. It's hard to have a relationship when someone else's idea of recovery and care doesn't match where you're at. And that's been a kind of a reoccurring theme and with, you know, by the time I met Dwayne, you know, so many people that he had, you know, been with and, you know, and, you know, very close relationships in his family had experienced sexual violence.

Monica Lewinsky (47:47)

Wow.

Gabrielle Union (47:47)

So this wasn't new to him. And he would just ask, like, what. What do you need today? Because it's. It changes. So by the time I was doing, Truth Be Told, I would just come home and be cr. Like, and he would just be holding me. And I'm sure there's a lot of feelings of helplessness, you know, because you. You want to make it right. You want to, you know, fight somebody. You want to fix it. And there's not a quick fix. It's just being present. And he's been great. And my friends are. I have the best friends in the world.

Monica Lewinsky (48:22)

No, no.

Gabrielle Union (48:23)

I'm happy. Oh, my God. When I finally. When I finally wrapped on Truth Be Told, they literally had a car waiting for me from Paramount to go out to Malibu. And they had this, like. They had a drum circle and spiritual folks and prayer warriors, and they did a rebirth.

Monica Lewinsky (48:45)

Like, cleansed you.

Gabrielle Union (48:46)

Yeah, yeah. And I just.

Monica Lewinsky (48:48)

Wow.

Gabrielle Union (48:49)

I tried to release. It was such a. It's like it just happened.

Monica Lewinsky (48:53)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (48:54)

But, you know, over time and a lot of therapy, like, so, I mean, every different. Every kind of therapeutic near you. I've tried it from hypnotherapy to talk therapy to guided mdma, like, whatever. Like, I've tried it all. It was very poignant, very helpful. And then, you know, my trauma didn't really go anywhere, so I needed something that would stick, you know, like, again, I do try. I firmly believe I got 60 more years. I need something that will. Will stick for this. The PTSD that lives and breathes, like, alien in my. Like, in my body.

Monica Lewinsky (49:40)

I Hear you. Yeah. We think this is a good. A good place for us to. To pause and invite Dr. Noori in. Yeah. Reclaiming is brought to you by Peloton. My friends were talking to me about that feeling when everything just clicks during a workout. That perfect moment when they're totally in the zone. I've had it before, but only on occasion. Well, the new Peloton Cross Training Tread plus was designed to help anyone reach that sweet spot faster. What makes this different? It's called Peloton iq. Think of it as your personal fitness companion. It tracks form, counts reps, and suggests the perfect weights with intelligent strength coaching. No more second guessing your workout. But here's the thing. Peloton IQ learns and adapts to each person. It builds personalized workout plans and connects members with classes that help you reach your goals. Not to mention instructors for every mood, personality and five. It's like having someone who just cares for you during your workout. You can also enjoy other types of workouts on the Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus. If you've been wanting to get back into Pilates like I have but haven't had time, the Tread plus screen actually swivels. So you can go from an energizing run straight into strength training or Pilates without missing a beat. Talk about endless possibilities. Let yourself run, lift, flow and go explore the new peloton cross training tread +@1peloton.com Reclaiming is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart Choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called Auto Quote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies so you save time on the and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Sophia. Dr. Sophia Noori, welcome to Reclaiming. Thanks for joining our conversation now. Of course. Yeah.

Dr. Sophia Noori (52:05)

Thank you for having me, Monica.

Monica Lewinsky (52:07)

No, I. You know what? But we're really excited about being able to talk about this. I mean, there's probably something wrong with me that I like to talk about trauma.

Dr. Sophia Noori (52:17)

I do too. It's my favorite topic to talk about. Trauma recovery.

Monica Lewinsky (52:20)

I just, it's. I think as we were, you know, chatting on before, I just, I feel like it's in such a. Almost a silent sin in our society, but. So Dr. Noori, you're an advocate for women's Health. And you are the co founder of the Women's Mental Health Conference, the first academic and trainee led conference focused on women's well being in the nation. And Gav, you recently joined Nima Health as an advisor and an investor. So what drew you to wanting to both take your advocacy and activism this way and drew you to Nima Health specifically?

Gabrielle Union (52:59)

I wanted a solution. I wanted a solution. My life had shrunk considerably. I wasn't an active participant in my life and the things I was participating in, I had like fleeting memories of, you know, you go through a whole lot, like a whole night and you're like, who was there? I. I was talking.

Dr. Sophia Noori (53:23)

Huh.

Gabrielle Union (53:24)

And just like the idea of like an invitation comes in and I'm like, yeah, I can't. I love when people cancel plans. It was just. My world was just shrinking when it should be expanding. I have a six year old old.

Monica Lewinsky (53:36)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (53:38)

And everything I tried, nothing was sticking and I needed something to stick. I got 60 more years and I'd heard about NIMA Health and a. I was like, well, where are you at in this process? I'd like to back this up with my wallet. And I want to, I want to be a client. I want to be someone who goes through the program and it's really changing kind of everything. It's, it's, it's a. It's giving me different tools. I mean, I've been in therapy 33 years, but it's given me different tools and a different perspective. That's giving me a lot more peace. You mentioned insomnia. I can't sleep because I'm thinking about everything that could possibly go wrong. I'm thinking about conversations that have never happened and will never happen. Happen. Well, someone says this and I got to be prepared with this and, and then I'll start googling facts.

Monica Lewinsky (54:36)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (54:36)

Why? What it like, so I'm prepared.

Monica Lewinsky (54:38)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (54:39)

I'm never caught unprepared. I like, I can't. You can't. Exactly. It's exhausting it. And it robs me of the joys of motherhood. It robs me of the joys of being in this loving relationship. It robs me of my amazing friends and I, I wanted to reclaim it. And, and it's been a massive, massive tool on this journey.

Monica Lewinsky (55:04)

Yeah. It's interesting because I think we've both talked about trauma similarly of not being linear. And I think, and I'm so curious. I mean I experienced that and all really the practitioners I talked to. But my therapist is a trauma psychiatrist and she'll talk about trauma as being an echo like that. The echo just kind of gets softer and softer. But it's. But that, that process is visually, for me, it always comes up as like a tilted spiral of that thing of that you sort of. Once you realize that you're. It feels like you're going down, but you're actually going down to go up. Like you go backwards, to go forwards in that way. But it is. It may feel like you're going backwards, but you are actually going forward. I don't know if, if that resonates, you know, for.

Gabrielle Union (56:00)

Depending on the day. Yeah, depending on the day. Because there's days where it's like, it didn't happen, never happened. This is not a part of my life. And then there's days this is the only thing that's ever happened.

Monica Lewinsky (56:11)

I wanted to ask you something super basic, which is just like, how do you define ptsd?

Dr. Sophia Noori (56:18)

Great question. And you know, it's so funny because it's like I've like, know the clinical definition, right? And I'm like constantly diagnosing people and like seeing patients. But this question kind of like takes me back for a second because I want to think about it in like the most elemental way. PTSD is about what the trauma left you with, right? And the impact that trauma has had on you, right? Because not everyone who suffers from a traumatic event, which frankly, like most Americans have actually develop ptsd, right? And it's about the meaning making, right. And how you relate to the trauma afterwards. And what happens with a lot of people is that. That they believe that the trauma is their entire book. They can't imagine another chapter in their book, right? And they start to think that the trauma defines who they are, right? And that's when people start to develop like the symptoms of ptsd, and they may not even know that that's what's happening. Right? But generally, you know, when we talk about ptsd, we talk about the fact that after a trauma, almost everyone has post traumatic stress symptoms. You're worried that, you know, you're going to get into another car accident again, that you're a terrible driver, right? That you know someone else is going to hit you or whatever it is, right? And what happens is people can't stop thinking that way. And so their lives become smaller and smaller. They stop driving, right? They only walk to. To work because they don't need to drive. And then what happens is they start to avoid, right? They. They can't stop thinking about what happened to them, right? And so that's how people develop ptsd. And for me, yeah, at the most elemental level, it's believing that you're not left with anything now that the trauma's happened.

Monica Lewinsky (57:56)

It's interesting because what you were just saying made me think about how, you know that thing like when you have a physical injury and if you don't get it healed, you start to accommodate, right? And other muscles take over another. And then before you know it, you've, you've sort of, I mean, not that that muscles atrophied, but it, you have a different problem because.

Dr. Sophia Noori (58:16)

Exactly, exactly. Because of the consequence of the original problem that you weren't actually able to fully heal to begin with. Right. There's four categories of symptoms that people develop after the trauma, right? And the first category is what we, what we call like re experiencing symptoms. So everyone classically thinks about like flashbacks and like nightmares, right? But actually the most common type of re experiencing symptom is having what we call like an emotional or physical flashback, right? Somebody treats you the way that you know and causes you to feel something that brings you back to the way you felt when the event happened, right? So when that happens, it's super distressing for people, right? So they have to check out. So the next category of symptoms is avoidance, right? Where you, you just tell people like, you know, you're not going to talk about it, right. Like when it comes into my head, I'm going to stop thinking about it. Like, I'm just. This is where people think that they almost like they don't have the memory anymore because they've like they've locked it in a closet, right? And then other people use, you know, use substances like drink or smoke weed or whatever to kind of numb themselves, right? So that's the next category of symptoms. And then, and obviously people avoid people, places, things too. So that's like, I can't go into a crowd anymore. Like I can't go to a concert, right? And so your life becomes smaller and smaller and smaller and then people start to develop what we call negative cognitions and mood. So when, you know, when you think about complex trauma or CPTSD has been like a really common term, right? This category of symptoms is, is for that. So people just thinking that they're always to blame. Blame, right? So having these negative thoughts about yourself because this happened to you, like if I had just done this, maybe it wouldn't have happened. It happened because I'm bad, right? And of course you're not going to feel good about yourself. You're not gonna be joyous and happy. Right. So people start to lose hope. And what I often hear, too, is that people just, like, don't feel creative anymore. Like, they can't imagine.

Monica Lewinsky (60:07)

That's interesting.

Dr. Sophia Noori (60:08)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the last category of symptoms is what we call, like, hyper vigilance or hyper arousal muscle. And this is the nervous system. Yeah. Like, you're always on 10, right. You're watching your back like you're on edge, guarded. Right. And also the most common symptom, and people don't realize this is insomnia. So that's actually the most common symptom.

Monica Lewinsky (60:31)

Okay.

Dr. Sophia Noori (60:33)

Yeah. Is just not being able to sleep. Yeah. And people often stop dreaming. I've noticed. And I think it goes back to this. Like, you literally lose your ability to imagine.

Monica Lewinsky (60:44)

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.

Dr. Sophia Noori (60:46)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (60:47)

Sophia, you, too, had sexual violence in college, right. And that led you on your path, right?

Dr. Sophia Noori (60:54)

Into.

Monica Lewinsky (60:55)

Into wanting to understand PTSD more. I mean, talk to me about that. You don't have to go into all the. No.

Dr. Sophia Noori (61:00)

No worries. Well, I. Thank you. I appreciate also, like, how, like, how much we're, like, holding space as well for us to, like, share what we feel comfortable to share. So I just wanted to say thank you, Monica, for doing that trauma.

Monica Lewinsky (61:11)

Trauma sensitive podcast. Toes here, girl.

Dr. Sophia Noori (61:13)

A bunch of gals with ptsd. Right? So, yeah, it. So, yeah. I mean, and just going back to, like, this whole thing about, like, transgenerational trauma and, like, intergenerational trauma. I mean, you know, it's like, for me, I always thought about my story, like, starting with the sexual violence or, you know, suffering sexual assault in college. And recently, I've been thinking a lot more that, like, it actually, you know, trauma started so much earlier, like, in my history and is why I wanted to, like, do this work. Right. So my family survived the Vietnam War and were refugees here. Right. So I, like, grew up hearing about, like, you know, how they were boat people and their boat sank off the coast of Hong Kong, and then they swam to shore. Right. And so, like, just grew up with that backdrop, which made me really interested in, like, psychology and mental health. And then, you know, my. My childhood was really fraught. And then, you know, unfortunately, then was assaulted. And to be honest, I kept it together for six months. I got a 4.0 that semester. Right. I took the MCAT the summer after and, like, you know, aced it, basically. Right. Cause I'm here now. Exactly, exactly. And then I, like, fell apart, like, six months later. Right. And was always, like, really inquisitive always wanted to like, understand this better. And then, you know, started reading about trauma and, and like learned that the traumas that are most likely to cause PTSD are actually sexual assault and domestic violence. Why doesn't anybody talk about that? Right? And so I got super fired up, became a rape crisis counselor after college. And I think I basically exposure therapied myself, myself in some ways, but because I was literally like, you know, answering the hotline for calls from, you know, survivors in crisis. And then also I had a pager and they would page me when there was a survivor who needed to get a rape kit done, like at the hospital. And we would literally go there, hold their hand, right?

Gabrielle Union (63:00)

Like, wow.

Dr. Sophia Noori (63:01)

Shepherd them through. And I would be literally crying like on my way because I was so, so like triggered myself frankly. But I was like, I need to do this, like I need to help somebody else. Right? And so that, then, then I was like, I, I actually, I mean it actually helped me so much to do it, frankly. Like, I don't necessarily recommend that people do that, but it was, so, it was actually a very corrective experience for me. And then went on to med school, thought I wanted to be an OB gyn, realized I could not cut up vaginas. Like that was really. I could not get past that. But yeah, so then, so then I started focusing on women's mental health. Went to psychiatry residency and, and then again like in psychiatry residency too, it's like you learn the treatment guidelines for every condition, right? And like, what therapies are going to best help, what medications are going to best help. And it was just wild to me that there are actually trauma therapies, like protocols of therapies that are designed to help people fully recover from PTSD and nobody gets them. And then I was like, you know, if there's one thing I'm going to do, it's going, going to be to start a clinic that helps get these types of therapies to people.

Monica Lewinsky (64:09)

So just. So tell me then specifically like what the clinic is, like what Nima Health is, you know, what.

Dr. Sophia Noori (64:16)

Yeah, right. So for sure. So it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, clinic that only sees survivors of trauma. And we again, because survivorship and just traumas are so wide and varied. The people that we see have like any and all kinds of traumas. So we see first responders, we see sexual assault survivors, domestic violence survivors, like the whole gamut, right. And we do all of the first line therapies that help people recover from ptsd. So it's essentially like a trauma recovery clinic. Right. So we spent about two years designing the care model, and then I was the first therapist. So I, I saw all the first patients, like the first several dozen patients to make sure it actually worked. Right. So we do the first line therapies, but we do it a little bit differently. And so, you know, there's two cutting edges to PTSD treatment. One is, you know, psychedelics. Right. But not fully legal, but, like, still kind of experimental. Right. Can be promising. And then there's something called massing treatment, massed treatment. And what we're actually learning is that the dose of therapy matters. So not just the kind of therapy. Right. But the amount of therapy that you get when you have PTSD can actually improve the outcome and the response. And so generally, we see folks three times a week. Week, two to two to five times per week. And we, we also add in a lot of support because, you know, again, it's a. It's a kind of condition where your life gets smaller. And so we. A couple of the other things that we do is like peer mentorship because people's lives are so, like, really constricting. Like, they just need like a support or a shoulder even as they're going through the therapy. Right. And we also try to enlist their families and loved ones, if they have them, to also support them. So we'll do. Do what we call support system sessions where we explain actually what PTSD is to the family or to the loved ones and how they can best support their loved one. And then we also explain how they can best support themselves. Because about. I think about a quarter of all of our inquiries come from loved ones.

Monica Lewinsky (66:09)

Interesting.

Dr. Sophia Noori (66:10)

Yeah. Who see that their. Their. Their loved one is struggling. Right.

Monica Lewinsky (66:13)

And.

Dr. Sophia Noori (66:14)

And wants them to get help.

Monica Lewinsky (66:15)

Yeah. Yeah. How interesting. I mean, you, Gabrielle, you threw yourself into, like you were saying before you got to ucla, and you went straight into therapy. Do you, looking back, do you think that that sort of helped save you in some ways?

Gabrielle Union (66:34)

I'm alive because of that. I got workman's comp, kicked in really, really fast within days of my rape. And so maybe four days later, I had my first session therapy session. And when those sessions, like that group of sessions, I started going to therapy based on my parents insurance. And then when I was ready to go to go back to college and I went to ucla, they had a huge mental health department or center. And. Yeah. And I just continued. I knew that I couldn't take a break. I wasn't in that space of being away from home, you know, living with a boyfriend, I needed help. Yeah. And it was massive, massive, massive, massive. And since I've worked with UCLA Rape Crisis center and it's just such a great resource for the community, not just UCLA students. It's mainly not UCLA students. It's the surrounding community. And I've seen the work that they do, and it's just necessary, you know, I wish it. I didn't sound so dun, dun, dun, but I would not be here if that didn't exist. I wouldn't have made it.

Monica Lewinsky (67:48)

Yeah, no, it is. I love so much what you're doing with Nima, because I hadn't heard of it. And my sort of life goal of like, okay, when I leave this plane, if I have somehow contributed to, like, my vision was around trauma, emotional trauma, urgent care centers, like, being, you know, them being as accessible as regular urgent care. And it sounds very much like this is kind of what you guys are doing. And I'm just curious around both your experience and what you see in this sort of compounded traumas because you had a difficult experience with infertility. And I've found for myself, I think when I first did emdr, basically there were a lot of things that were coming up that I wasn't ready to see. And so I stopped.

Dr. Sophia Noori (68:45)

I was like, what the fuck?

Monica Lewinsky (68:46)

Why am I having this fucked up dream about, you know, whatever. I'm not gonna get into details here, but, you know, and so I now, with my understanding of trauma, I now understand it's like, oh, all these. I put all these things in the folder together. They're all interconnected for me in my body, in my psyche. They may not make sense to someone else that they're all connected, but that trauma. So how do you look at that? That kind of compounded?

Gabrielle Union (69:11)

Yeah, I mean, it was a lack of control. I wanted my body to do something. It wouldn't do it. You know, things were happening to me that I didn't want to happen, that I had no control over and I thought I could control my fertility. You know, whether that.

Monica Lewinsky (69:29)

Sure.

Gabrielle Union (69:29)

We're.

Monica Lewinsky (69:30)

We're pretty much taught that.

Gabrielle Union (69:31)

Well, yeah, you know, like whether if I'm. If I'm. If we're using condoms, if we're. If I'm on the pill, I have control over what is going to happen to my body.

Monica Lewinsky (69:39)

I never thought about it that way.

Gabrielle Union (69:40)

You know, and then when it's like, now I'm ready and then it's like my body's like, no, girl, it's not going to work like that. And it's the loss of control. And it set me spiraling, you know, doing all of the things that I needed to do to. To. To put myself in a position to even have a child. I didn't want to do all of those things I inside. I had to do them to get my child. But it was not a part of the dream, the plan. None of it was typical. And I fought it every step of the way, all the way through surrogacy. It was very hard and very painful because it's happening outside of my control. Even my child's incubation is outside of my control, outside of my body. Body. You know what I mean? So it's, It's. It was definitely a mind, the whole thing.

Monica Lewinsky (70:41)

Do you feel like your experience would have been the same with that if you didn't have PTSD from the assault, the sexual assault, or do you think it exacerbated it?

Gabrielle Union (70:55)

I think it. It exacerbates. It exacerbates everything.

Monica Lewinsky (70:59)

Surprise. Chronic stress, right?

Gabrielle Union (71:01)

Yeah. I can find the challenge in every situation. Right. So it just makes you hyper aware of every single thing, every twitch, you know, every. I'm hyper aware of body language and tone and. Yeah. So it impacts everything. And since it's been my whole adult life, I don't really. I wish. I hope it would be different. I'd like to think it would be, but I don't really know because this is all I know. Know I've had this more than I've not had it. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (71:34)

I. I'm curious. I mean, do you feel like, I guess my. My hope or fantasy or what? I feel like I've, I. I feel like I've. I've experienced it myself too. Is that the. The healing is about there being more space between the triggers and the recovery being faster? But is there the philosophy at. @ nima around sort of just long term, like how you look at trauma?

Dr. Sophia Noori (72:00)

Great question, Monica. And it's. It's something that I've spent, like, honestly, like, I mean, I've spent like, time. Like, first of all, I'm a survivor. Right. So it's like I'm thinking about this for myself too. And also, like, I am a physician and a researcher, so I want to look at the research and, like, see what it says. And honestly, actually the research is way more optimistic than people are, which is really interesting. Okay.

Monica Lewinsky (72:23)

That is. Yeah.

Dr. Sophia Noori (72:25)

Yeah. And so. And you know, it makes sense if you think about it, because if you think about ptsd, it's the only mental health condition where there is a cause, right. Where you can actually name the day in which, like, you've started to have symptoms. Right? And you know, the only sort of group that that's not true for is people who have child abuse. Right? And even then, though, they often can tell that, like, this isn't me or like, there's something deeper to me. Right? And so if you think about it makes sense that you can actually recover from PTSD because you were, you were difference at some other point. And most people don't develop PTSD after a trauma, right?

Monica Lewinsky (73:00)

Oh, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again. Sorry. That's. That's new to me.

Dr. Sophia Noori (73:06)

So, yeah, so most people do not develop PTSD after a trauma. So about 83% of people of, of un. Of Americans have actually suffered a trauma. But somewhere around 1 in 10, 1 in 12 people will go on to develop PTSD.

Monica Lewinsky (73:20)

Okay.

Dr. Sophia Noori (73:21)

So, so we know actually that most, most people do not like, develop symptoms for forever, right? So when you look at the research, so the therapies that actually work the best for PTSD are these trauma focused therapies that are structured therapies that essentially are like purpose built for epiphanies, right. And help you process through your trauma so that again, you understand that you can write the rest of your book, right? The rest of the chapters of your book. And they generally take about 10 to 15 sessions to complete. Complete EMDR is one of them.

Monica Lewinsky (73:53)

Okay.

Dr. Sophia Noori (73:53)

The other two are cognitive processing therapy and prolonged exposure. And what is really powerful about the therapies that I wish I could just like, shout this from the rooftop, is that if you do the, the first, the top two, which is cognitive Processing therapy and prolonged exposure, if you do those therapies and you don't do any more therapy, if they, if they, if they visit Monica again after 10 years, the, the chances are you will not develop symptoms again, you will actually have. You'll be in permanent recovery, Right? Because you can't unthink yourself back into the PTSD after you see it in a different light, right? And so I think it's like, so interesting because we think that after you're traumatized, you wear a scarlet letter. And like, we can make the scarlet letter smaller, but it's always on you, right?

Monica Lewinsky (74:38)

Yeah.

Dr. Sophia Noori (74:39)

And that's not necessarily, like, nobody can take away the fact that trauma happened to you. You. But the symptoms that you have, right, do not need to be there. Right? And so, so actually the prognosis is actually really Good for folks if they're able to get a trauma therapy. And so, you know, generally what happens, like, back to, you know, like, the sort of practical answer to your question is that. And I've noticed this too, is like, because I think about myself as being in recovery is that, like, I honestly don't have days where I get triggered anymore. The only time where I get super triggered by something or, like, have a quote unquote bad day is if something is really unexpected and, like, really takes me back there. Right. Then I have to, like, lay down and I have to. I can feel it. I can, like, feel it coming back up. Right. And I just have to, like, lay down and care for myself. But I know now, like, I can't think the same way, so it just doesn't. It doesn't come back up the same way too.

Monica Lewinsky (75:30)

That's interesting. I don't, I don't know about you, but I find I've got, I have. There's sort of like the list of triggers or the kinds of things that could just totally light switch trigger me. But then I also find if too many little things are happening, like the thing that would just wobble me a little, normally, if there are too many of those in a condensed period of time, then I also just kind of lose it. Maybe that's not ptsd. Maybe.

Dr. Sophia Noori (75:57)

Yeah. Some of this is being human, and a lot of it is. It could be too. Right. There's something called a cognitive load too, where it's like you can only do so much advanced calculus in your brain basically. Right, Right. And then you just drop things or you become overwhelmed. Right. And so, like, going back to what you were saying too, Gabrielle, about like just having to calculate the risk of everything. Like, a lot of people with PTSD often get, like, think that they have, that they have ADHD because they. Oh, well, I think that.

Monica Lewinsky (76:25)

But I, I, Yeah, I self diagnosed my. I self diagnosed from Instagram.

Dr. Sophia Noori (76:31)

That's so funny.

Gabrielle Union (76:32)

Naturally.

Dr. Sophia Noori (76:32)

Naturally. That's. Yeah. Because you have bigger fish to fry. You're thinking about your safety. Right. So how. How is a kid who's being abused at home, you know, and worried about, like, being harmed going to be able to do math? Well. Right, right. That's where we get into, like, complex trauma and all of those pieces too.

Monica Lewinsky (76:52)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (76:52)

Then don't add perimenopause and menopause.

Dr. Sophia Noori (76:54)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (76:55)

Like, it's, it's, it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot.

Monica Lewinsky (76:58)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (76:59)

And it's also this age where women, we get to this Age where we start becoming dismissed and invisible.

Monica Lewinsky (77:04)

Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Union (77:05)

And. But you're going through so many things and you don't want to be just dismissed as a bitter bitch.

Monica Lewinsky (77:13)

Right.

Gabrielle Union (77:13)

As a bitter old or whatever.

Monica Lewinsky (77:15)

Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Union (77:16)

That mean old lady like you. Because that's like the. The stereotype. And you're fighting against all of these things while trying to just exist in society, and it just feels like the odds are stacked against you. There's so many days where you're like, too much. Too much. It's too much. Because the ragey rage from PTSD plus.

Monica Lewinsky (77:38)

Oh, parent. The perimenopause. Oh, my God. That zero to 60 is like, what. What just happened.

Gabrielle Union (77:46)

Yeah, no, I mean, you know, so I really want women of our age range who are dealing with complex trauma to understand that there is. There are eggs. Exits.

Monica Lewinsky (77:57)

Yeah, yeah.

Gabrielle Union (77:58)

To get off this.

Monica Lewinsky (77:59)

Yeah.

Gabrielle Union (77:59)

Jacked up freeway.

Dr. Sophia Noori (78:00)

One thing I wanted to bring up too, that honestly I just learned myself, is that, you know, low estrogen, estrogen states actually increase PTSD symptoms. So essentially when you. Yeah, lucky. Yes. So menopause. Right. When your estrogen levels are going down is a time when people actually have increased symptoms, like trauma symptoms. Right. And then the other time is after pregnancy. Pregnancy. Because their. Their estrogen's going lower. Yeah, exactly. So I just wanted to tell you all that because I felt that that would be valuable, young lady.

Gabrielle Union (78:31)

Yes, yes. Because it makes you feel like you're crazy and it's. And it leads to more isolation.

Monica Lewinsky (78:37)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I. I always say the wor. The worst things happen when people are suffering in silence.

Dr. Sophia Noori (78:43)

That's so true.

Monica Lewinsky (78:45)

What's like, what's something that anybody who's listening to our chat, who might be a survivor, like, what's something that you believe both want them to know or to take away from the conversation?

Gabrielle Union (78:58)

There's help. There's help that will really change your life in a more permanent way, in the way that you think that your trauma is permanent. So can your healing be permanent? And this does not have to be your whole life. And there is. Is. There is joy on the other side. There's peace on the other side. And I'd love for you to get to know your real self, you know, independent of this therapy, independent of the trauma.

Dr. Sophia Noori (79:35)

Yeah. I mean, I. I couldn't say it better than Gabrielle. I mean, I think. I just really hope that people understand that they can feel differently. I know that when I was going through it, I did not think I could. Like, I. I truly believed that. That I was essentially Damned. And that I was never going to feel differently about myself. And I. Yeah. So I think for me it's just really helping people understand that like they can feel different, like this isn't their whole life.

Monica Lewinsky (80:03)

And what gives you both hope?

Gabrielle Union (80:06)

Like, I think for me like being in the program and you know, having the family session and having my husband come and start to really, really understand in a way that I, I've never been able to explain it, you know, accurately to feel after each session that a. I don't have to leave the house. Mine is all via zoom.

Monica Lewinsky (80:30)

Okay.

Gabrielle Union (80:31)

I can do four in a week. Like this week there'll be four sessions. Last week it was two. But like that there's a finite number of sessions. Like this isn't like I've been in therapy for 33 years. Yeah. This isn't meant to go on and on and on and on and on. You can get help in a finite amount of time, in a shorter, relatively shorter amount of time that can have an impact on the rest of your life, on the quality of the rest of your life. And I hope people take this opportunity. It's giving me a freedom that I have not known since I was 19. And it's, it's. I don't know, it's exciting. A little bit scary. Cuz who am I without this?

Monica Lewinsky (81:15)

Yeah, that's a, that's a very in.

Gabrielle Union (81:18)

Town gorilla on my back. Like who am I? Very complicated and I'm, I'm excited to know her.

Monica Lewinsky (81:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Dr. Sophia Noori (81:29)

I guess for me, I think what gives me hope is just the experience on the. Actually the other side. When you're a therapist and you actually see someone who's been suffering for years and years and years actually tell you that they finally feel happy again. Right. Or they feel hope again, it's like a, it's like such an amazing experience as like someone who wants to help people. Right. To actually see them get better. And to be honest, it happens faster than medication sometimes because the program, if you're doing 10 to 15 sessions, it lasts four to six weeks. Right. And so like, honestly, if I could just bottle up that feeling, like that's what keeps me going is like it might not work for everyone. Right. We, we never know. You can never predict treatment response. Right. But like that feeling is I think what keeps me going and gives me hope.

Monica Lewinsky (82:16)

Yeah. So the last question I ask my guests is if there's anything that you're currently. I mean, I feel like we've talked about it this whole time, but if there's anything that you're currently working on reclaiming and that could be, you know, an aspect of your identity or a place or anything.

Gabrielle Union (82:36)

I think for me, I. I want to be able to confidently drive my child. Sounds basic, but.

Monica Lewinsky (82:46)

No, that's huge.

Gabrielle Union (82:48)

Terrifying. I don't do it. I just, I don't do it. It has to be like desperate situation.

Monica Lewinsky (82:53)

Yeah. Finding that, that sort of center and that sense of calm and peace and that. That makes sense. Yeah. How about you, Sophia?

Dr. Sophia Noori (83:04)

You know, for me, so I just had a child and I think for me I'm trying to reclaim my sense of how to. Of a family too. And like now that I'm building my own family. Right. And I think this goes back to like sort of the intergenerational trauma piece where like, especially as a mixed race individual, where a lot of my childhood was, was like informed by the fact that everyone around me was so worried about security or safety or, you know, as refugees. Right. I'm trying to just reclaim a sense of security. Right. And also create that for my child too. Right. Like a, like a childhood that I didn't have necessarily. So.

Monica Lewinsky (83:40)

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you both so much and thank you for the work you're doing in the world and, and putting into it and trying to. Trying to help. Reclaiming with Monica Klewinski is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.