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- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everyone. For today's episode, I had the absolute joy of talking with the wise, fearless and deeply inspiring Glennon Doyle. You probably know her as a bestselling author, activist and podcast host, but more than anything, she's a voice for anyone who has ever felt stuck, lost, or just ready to burn it all down. In our conversation, we dive into the power of unlearning the beauty of living authentically and how she's navigating self trust in real time. Anyway, I hope you find something in our chat to connect to and thanks so much for joining us on Reclaiming. Thank you to our presenting sponsor, Audible. From nail biting suspense to sweeping romance, Audible brings every thrill to life. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming hi Glennon.
- [01:22]
Glennon Doyle
Hi.
- [01:23]
Monica Lewinsky
This is such a treat to have you. Welcome to Reclaiming. So you know I don't like to be super on the nose with the podcast's theme. I want people to get what's really important to them from the conversation rather than having me label things. However, with you, Glennon Doyle, I feel like Reclaiming is so much of your whole life and you're just a queen of it. And from everything you've lived through in your life and all the things you've taught us, just really grateful to be having this chat. And thank you for being here.
- [02:04]
Glennon Doyle
I'm just excited all morning to talk. I usually just get nervous, not excited about things. So I am honored to be here and really looking forward to having this chat with you.
- [02:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh thanks. But this past week I had a somatic therapy session. I guess it was at the end of last week and it's been been really just kind of taken over. A lot of my thinking in terms of we're talking about boundaries and systems and ways of knowing ourselves. And I was saying how when I go into a restaurant, I sit down with a menu, it's very easy for me to have a sense and a system in myself of yes, I want this, no I want that. It's easy, super clear. And yet when I kind of go into more nuanced or complicated areas of my life, more interpersonal relationship things, I'm just noticing I not so good with boundaries. I'm not so good at having a system. Like I said out loud, Wow. I can't even imagine how easy life would be if you just had this red light, green light, and you were committed to just following that. And so I, I just was curious, you know, to talk to you a bit about this because you talk so much about self trust and I just wanted to, you know, how do you define it? How do you think about it?
- [03:31]
Glennon Doyle
Okay, well, just is blowing my mind a little bit because I think that truly the last at least five years of my life have all been about figuring out how to get back into my body in a way that I feel the green lights and red lights like, I actually, I'm not there yet, so it's okay. I'm on the way, though.
- [04:06]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, thank you for saying that. You know, that's helpful to, you know, for those of us who have you up on a pedestal. That's helpful to hear. But so go ahead. You're saying you're not there totally yet.
- [04:18]
Glennon Doyle
Well, what I think that the universe is trying to teach me at this moment in the last five years as just background. I have been recovering from an eating disorder that has morphed into a million different things since I was 10. My eating disorder started when I was 10 and. And now I'm. What am I, 49? And I am still freaking dealing with it. So a couple years ago, I entered into a real new level of recovery for anorexia. And I was really nailing it for a while.
- [04:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Like, Monica, I swear, I fucking know that. I know that. Like, I got the challenge. I'm doing so well. I'm winning so well at the challenge thrown at me. Just watch me win. Yeah.
- [05:14]
Glennon Doyle
And then, I mean, and I did it for real. Like I was told, you have to get. This is very serious, you know, you can't mess around with this anymore. Anorexia is the second most deadly, I don't know, whatever you want to call it, Mental health challenge, addiction disorder, next to opioid addiction, it's like the one that takes the most people out. So I took it really seriously, entered into really intense therapy. Didn't do any public speaking or appearance for a year and a half. Really did it up okay. And I was healthish, I was painting, I was eating. I was my life. I was creating boundaries. I was creating a life that felt like safe and, and cozy and like a life that I didn't need a bunch of armor inside of because I think that's what my eating disorder is, a way to like, stay guarded. Anyway, few weeks ago, the only way I can explain it is I woke up and was like, oh, I actually was on my way home from New York doing this, like, promotion stuff for our new book that is coming out.
- [06:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [06:37]
Glennon Doyle
So all I can tell you, Monica, is I was on the plane on the way home from New York, and I couldn't sit right. Like, my butt was hurting so bad. Like, I could not find a comfortable seat. And I turned to Abby and was like, why can't. Why does my. My tailbone hurt so bad? And her face. It was just very clear. It was this moment of, oh, my tailbone hurts because I'm emaciated again and I don't have any ass padding left.
- [07:10]
Monica Lewinsky
And I look, that's also close to 50, so. But go ahead.
- [07:14]
Glennon Doyle
Sorry. Right, right. That's true.
- [07:16]
Monica Lewinsky
But yeah. So that realization, your body telling that your body's pain.
- [07:21]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [07:21]
Monica Lewinsky
Reflecting to you kind of where you are on that path. Yeah.
- [07:28]
Glennon Doyle
And then Abby's face kind of confirming, oh, and everybody else knows this and was waiting for me to figure it out again. So here's what I think. First of all, I'm exhausted by even talking about it. Like, I feel so. I don't know if embarrassed is the word, but it's like, whatever's the word for worrying that everyone in your life is like, are you freaking serious? Like, we're gonna do this again? Are you kidding me?
- [08:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. That's all my friends with, like, oh, I met a new boy. And then they're like, oh, oh, Monica. It's a thing. It's a thing. Oh, Monica. So. Oh, Glennon. But. And of course, like, the. The higher part of you, the more healed, matured part of you on the different timeline knows they all just love you.
- [08:23]
Glennon Doyle
Yes.
- [08:23]
Monica Lewinsky
Right? Yeah.
- [08:26]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. And I think it. Some people probably do relate to the idea of, like, again, like, it's like some of us just have one thing, like, a struggle, and it feels like there's going to be some kind of, like, graduation from it or.
- [08:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God. I. So it's like you're inside my head. My voice talking to me inside my head.
- [08:49]
Glennon Doyle
Like, I always feel like there's going to be some kind of moment where I grab, like, I'm a finish line. And yes. I keep trying to make them.
- [08:59]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, yeah.
- [09:01]
Glennon Doyle
I announce, I'm done. I did it. And then everybody goes, yay. And then I'm like, oh.
- [09:10]
Monica Lewinsky
It'S the starting line, but you are. I know that this doesn't. It doesn't minimize the pain you're going through, but I know from my own ways, in different inroads into it, that it's like living your mistakes out loud for other people is so painful for us and so hard for us. And at the same time, it helps so many other people. Like, you've just. I mean, not that you woke up going, gee, how am I gonna help Monica Lewinsky this morning? But you've just helped me. You've just helped me. So if you can hold both the things, you know, it is. I totally. The number of times that I have just said, here, we're here again. How are we fucking here again? What more? What more. What additional therapy can I add in? How many more times a week can I do something? And I do think, and I'm curious what your reaction is to this. I do think some of it is about that we're getting more knowing systems, more wisdom systems right now. And so for me, I know somatic therapy's been around, but that's been new for me. Paying attention to my body, listening to my body. And so I think that maybe sometimes these things come around because we actually also have a new way of thinking about it, and it helps. Helps us get a layer deeper.
- [10:45]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [10:46]
Monica Lewinsky
I don't know.
- [10:47]
Glennon Doyle
I haven't thought of that directly, but I think that feels right to me.
- [10:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Just so you know, too, I've struggled with food stuff my whole life. I was in an eating disorder unit when I was, I think, 17, and somebody said something to me at that point, which I thought was really interesting, particularly with food. We all have to eat every day. And so you're always interacting with the thing that you have the complicated relationship with, even though, of course, we know the food is just the externalized thing for the internal conflict. Right. So I feel you. And I understand. And it is. I know that men suffer from these things, too. It just seems like the culture really goes against us when it comes to how we are perceived, our perceived selves, our perceived images.
- [11:42]
Glennon Doyle
Well, that's just disembodiment. Right? I mean, the amount of times where I figure out I'm gone, and it's because I'm thinking about what I'm looking like instead of what I'm looking at. It's like I'm thinking about what someone else is thinking of me instead of what I'm thinking about. It's like my view, my gaze has changed. Like, my gaze is from inside myself out at my world, but somehow I am now out in the world looking at myself. And that is not a healthy place for me, which is probably why the shiny media stuff is that Kind fuck for me, right? But coming back to like one struggle and being embarrassed about it, I actually wrote about. About it on a newsletter that I started recently and somebody wrote back, which I'm not supposed to be reading anyone's.
- [12:35]
Monica Lewinsky
Responses for your mental health or just health.
- [12:39]
Glennon Doyle
So what I do is I read every single one. Right.
- [12:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Because obviously.
- [12:45]
Glennon Doyle
So this one woman wrote to me and said it was just like this very short email, and she said, well, you know what? I just learned this thing about humpback whales, which is that humpback whales are born with one sound, one tone, one song, and they sing the same song their entire lives. Wow. You're just a humpback whale. I don't know why. Monica, the only advice that helps me is when people tell me a story about an animal. I think I was trying to explain why that, like, think for myself about why that helps me so much this morning. And then I was thinking about that Mary Oliver poem talking about despair and is wild geese. And then she says, you're just taking your place in the family of things. That's why the animal stories help me, because it makes me feel like, oh, I'm not broken or different or weird. I'm just like an animal. I'm just taking my place in the family of things. So. So I'm feeling a little bit better about only having one song that I'm likely going to sing the rest. I'm just. This book about that called Untamed, that like. Yes, it was about, like. It came to me when I was watching a cheetah. So this morning I was like, I'm not crazy. I'm just a goddamn humpback whale.
- [14:17]
Monica Lewinsky
That story. Can you tell this story, the cheetah story, from the beginning of Untamed? Because I think it was such a great story and it allowed the rest of the. Of the narrative and what you're teaching in it through your own stories to just unfurl in such an interesting way in the book.
- [14:34]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah, so it was. I was at a kind of like, zoo place with my kids when they were little, and we were watching this thing called a cheetah run. They had a cheetah that was in a cage. And then a bunch of people would stand and watch and they would open the cheetah cage and there was this little. I think it was like a golden retriever or something. It was some kind of dog. And the cheetah was trained to think it was a dog. So the dog would run together on this thing and all the people would cheer and the cheetah was following the dog because it was raised to think it was a dog. And then at the end of the cheetah run, everybody would clap and the trainers would throw this cheetah, this like steak, probably from Costco or something. I don't. It was so depressing. Everybody was cheering and I was like having this out of body experience. Like, oh my God. Well, we were watching the cheetah afterwards in my head. Girl was like six or something. And the cheetah was just like pacing around at this little part of the field. It was just pacing in this way that made me feel like, oh my God, that thing. That thing may have been trained to think it's a dog, but that thing knows it's wild. Yeah, it is like stalking the periphery of its life. And it knows like it has never been. It was born in captivity, so this is ever known, but it has something in it that knows it was made for bigger fish, more freedom, for more wildness. And I just felt like, oh, I, I, I'm with the cheetah, I don't know happening but I feel that inside me. I feel like all of these.
- [16:29]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm.
- [16:30]
Glennon Doyle
I was in a marriage then. That wasn't right. It was, felt a lot like a cage to me and I was in actually a form of religion I was a part of. I was a fundamentalist Christian at the time. I felt very like that was a cage that I had more wild faith inside of me than what was presented to me on the outside as religion. I just, and then I, I also related to like the gross Costco steaks because I felt like I'm being such a good girl. I'm like doing all the things and a good Christian lady. I'm a good mom, I'm a good wife. And at the end of the day all I'm getting are these shitty steaks. Like I don't think this is what was meant for me, you know?
- [17:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [17:10]
Glennon Doyle
These consolation fake consolation prizes that come in the form of just like pats on the head and like you're a good type thing. So yeah, I guess the animal thing is, which is so interesting because I'm not an outdoor person at all. I never really. My house, I'm very inspired by wildlife from my couch.
- [17:29]
Monica Lewinsky
I think it's interesting with the cages because I guess what's coming up for me is this, you know, just kind of going back to my somatic session and thinking about that part of my knowing system. Right. I think got quieted or shoveled away or Whatever. At a certain age in childhood of kind of this sense of, okay, there are all these societal norms and you're supposed to do these things and therefore, almost your own knowing system doesn't matter because you're being taught. I think, you know, my mom, you know, taught me a lot of amazing things. And I think she's just somebody who's always wanted to keep the peace, you know, So I observed her always keeping the peace. And I learned from her, you know, a woman is happiest and safest when she keeps the peace. And so it's interesting to me because in a way, the cages, they are also boundaries, right? So there are those. And so it's that sense of, okay, how do we know what the right boundary is? Right. I don't know. Does that make sense at all, what I'm saying? Yeah.
- [18:44]
Glennon Doyle
For me, it's like. I mean, the gorgeous thing about watching the cheetah remember its wildness and pace around the thing was, it was a reminder to me of, like, oh, we do have something inside of us as animals. Animals that reminds us of what is true and good and meant for us. And if a cheetah can forget its wildness, not that it thinks it's a freaking Labrador then it certainly makes sense that I could forget my wildness, that I could actually believe. Culture has trained me to be a peacekeeper or a good girl or I think the difference is, like, maybe the cages are what's imposed on us by a culture that needs us to behave in a certain way, to maintain status quo. Right. But there are internal signals that I am beginning to learn to tune into that clue me in on what I should build around me that are true to my own needs and not my culture's needs from me.
- [19:58]
Monica Lewinsky
So can you talk a little about. If you feel like you're ready to. Can you talk a little about how you're doing that? What that looks like for you right now?
- [20:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. Well, I can try to work it out for you in real time of how I'm thinking about this last episode for my. Like, how did it happen? Because it really feels like to me, Monica, like, I think what happens for me is that I'm doing well. I'm. I'm in touch with my body. I'm going slow. I'm not. I'm saying no to everything that doesn't feel right, even if other people think I should be doing it. I. And then something enters that makes me feel like I have to armor up again. Like, whether it's. I'm for Me, it's usually something I'm agreeing to for work. Like, I somehow, once again get convinced. I don't know if it's my own brain, if it's agents, if it's the world, if I don't know how, but I forget that I don't have to do things that make me want to die. And I somehow become convinced that, oh, no, no, I have to do all those things again. That's right. That's right. I have to go out, I have to go prove myself again. I have to do all the podcasts, the media, the exposure that doesn't actually feel safe to me. And I think I keep doing it because I think I should be able to handle it because my friends, my colleagues can handle it. Why I should be able to do these things and not get all bent out of shape about it. I think I am finally like, oh, this is going to sound maybe a little bit insane for an almost 50 year old to say, but I think I, I think I just realized this last round. Oh, the whys or the shoulds don't matter anymore. Like, all is the what is for me. Regardless of why, regardless of whatever particular childhood trauma or cultural trauma or what the hell ever. Yeah, I cannot do these things and stay healthy and in my integrity and in peace.
- [22:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, I completely relate to all of that. And I think my, you know, my version's slightly different, but I've had to be really steadfast with reminding myself, particularly I think when it comes to interviews and different things, of I can only do so much. I have to do so much preparation to be able to show up as myself, and that's the best I can do.
- [22:45]
Glennon Doyle
Can you stop for a second? Because I just have to repeat what you said because it's the story of my life. I have to do so much preparation. Be myself. Yeah, Monica, what is wrong with that? I said one of my favorite things about this sort of insanity in my brain is that once going into this event and I turned to my editor and. And she said, I said, what am I supposed to do in there? What am I supposed to. And she said, just be yourself. And I said, I don't know how much longer I can keep that up.
- [23:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, gosh. Yeah, it's. No, no, I, it is, but I think there's, I think there's something and it's. And we may experience it in this way as more public people, but I think everybody experiences it on, on different levels in different ways of who we are sort of in that was it. Goffman talks about, like, backstage, front stage, like, who we are backstage, right? Who we are when we're with the people that our nervous system feels really safe with. And. But then there's. We're not living in the wild, right? We live in a society that's. Our soul, chose to come to this dimension for these lessons. And, you know, so it's trying to figure out, how do you come full circle back to yourself? How do you be out there and not necessarily be who people think you should be, but you're trying to. At least for me, my experience is I am trying to. I'm trying to. I don't know. The word honor is so cheesy, but it's like I'm trying to honor my true self and sort of go, okay, I've chosen to do this thing. And therefore. So for me, I. You know, before I do particularly TV interviews, I have to practice so much. I work with. I don't know what the questions are, but I work with someone who has received many Emmys from having produced news. And so we have a certain way of working. And for me, what I feel is, okay. Anything somebody could ask me, I've already answered. So it's not that far. I don't have to go very far in my nervousness inside myself to find, okay, an answer that I feel okay about. And, of course, some of that underneath that is the worry of making a mistake. You know, historically, my mistakes have been very expensive. So if there's like a. You know, but it is. You know, I think there is that difficult thing of I don't want to be. I don't want to be caged by my anxiety. I don't want to be caged by my ptsd. And I guess that's what I mean by showing up as my true self, right? Showing up authentically is being able to sit in all situations in the same way I sit with, you know, my friends, where we sit, and all we'll do for a weekend, like, I'll go up to Carmel. One of my best friends lives up there. And it's like, we eat, we walk on the beach, we talk about, you know, existential crisis to the latest Hollywood gossip, and we just traverse back and forth, back and forth. And so it's. It's part of the strange thing of being public, too, you know, and all the shiny things. And it is hard because, at least for me, I will find a certain part of my brain looks at a calendar and goes, well, look, there's time. Of course I can do this in time. And then when you're in the moment, you're saying, okay, I didn't listen to the rest of myself. I just listened to my analytical brain. Right, exactly.
- [26:35]
Glennon Doyle
That's what. When my brain takes over. No good. I don't know how to. There's like, a moment where, like, we just have to show up and we have to get through this thing. And then, like, all of the old language comes up of, like, we just have to soldier through. We just have. I even use military language to discuss getting through these times. And then my hyper vigilance comes back. Right. It's something about protective parts. Like, there's a part of me that rises in my body that's like, oh, okay, Glennon doesn't feel safe. So we know what to do. Yeah.
- [27:14]
Monica Lewinsky
I call her the little general. She's the little general in Mexico language.
- [27:17]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah.
- [27:18]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [27:18]
Glennon Doyle
Interesting, right? So there's some. But then there's, like, this part of me, and I'm hearing it in you. Like, what is then? Because I don't want to be ruled by my anxiety either. I don't want to. There's a version of my life that's like, oh, I see. You're just. You don't feel safe in the public, so just be private, then just, like, go away. Just. Which sometimes feels very tempting, but I don't think that's right either.
- [27:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Right.
- [27:52]
Glennon Doyle
So what about for you? Like, what is it that drives this? It's like, I still want to be known or something and understood or I.
- [28:01]
Monica Lewinsky
Think when I have reflected back to me that when I've talked about my. My own experiences or just having survived something, that it helps people that you don't know. And I think that there is a core in us that feels good and on a soul, like an evolution of a soul level, on a karmic level, that's meaningful, you know, and it's really hard when there's the war inside you because of those other things. But I also wonder if maybe those are the times we're living through right now that people need that. I think we're living in times where people can smell when something's authentic and not authentic, and they're just not interested in the bullshit. And so, you know, maybe it's. I don't know, having to struggle out loud. Thanks so much to Audible, our presenting sponsor. Craving your next adventure. It's waiting for you on Audible. Dive into heart racing thrills, vast adventures, and enchanted worlds, all with just a tap. Each story is carefully crafted to keep you on the edge of your seat until the very last word. Only on Audible will you find exclusive originals that transport you to captivating dimensions. Be in the know with early access to highly anticipated releases and discover chart topping bestsellers that everyone's talking about, such as Frieda McFadden's the boyfriend to Ashley Elston's the First Lie Wins. Discover what lies beyond the edge of your seat on Audible. Start your adventure today. Sign up for a free 30 day trial at audible.comreclaiming that's audible.comreclaiming. you know, I was thinking about with you too, that do you feel with having your work and your personal story sort of explode in this way that helps so many people and continues to help people and that you are this role model, does that, do you think that pressure impacts you in what's going on now? And not to simplify and be like, oh gee, you had this explosive attention, like you'd gotten attention, you had been helping people. You've written three books. And to me, my experience was the third book sort of ballooned more. Right. And you've got We Can Do Hard things podcast and that it happened during the pandemic, which was also a time that we were more vulnerable to. So I think it imprinted more for many people in ways. But so not to say that those things like that caused this sort of a relapse or shift in your, you know, eating issues, but does it, does that come into it at all for you?
- [30:56]
Glennon Doyle
I would imagine that if I was the sort of writer or thinker that like presented more of a victory march, that that would feel like pressure, but that's not really my vibe. So I don't feel pressure to have it figured out because that's where I've lived in, in my writing or I really just feel like my only duty as a writer is just to show up and reveal what is right now, not what I should be or what is best for anyone else or is an ideal. And that takes a lot of pressure off because it just feels like my job is to tell the truth and, and the truth changes all the time, which is so great. So it's just the, the idea of you just tell the truth and then when the truth changes, you just change what you're saying. Like the evolution of truth is different each day. I don't think that's the pressure. I mean, I think the beauty of the somatic experience and why so many people are talking about it now is, I guess I can describe yesterday. I was, I got an email about this event. I was supposed to do. So normally what I would do is just be very extreme about everything. So, oh, my eating disorder is back. So I'm doing nothing for. And then because I'm an extreme person, okay, I'm thinking maybe I need to do this differently. So I had agreed to do this event that was for a, for queer rights. And I was gonna go give a little, you know, encouraging speech with Abby and I. That had felt good and right to me. Like I felt slow enough to be like, okay, that's something that I can do. That feels real, that feels true, that feels in service. I can do this. So then I got a follow up email that was all these things like, here's the red carpet 30. Here's the, here's the interviews, here's the whatever. And then Monica, I started, okay, here's why this somatic therapy is and that I just want your listeners to like. So because I've been doing this sort of therapy instead of just being like, okay, I see, I'll be there at 4:30. I'm just going to power through a little general. I'll do the red carpet. I'll do. I was quiet and like a. Still enough to be like, wait, what's happening in my body right now? Okay, so I'm like, okay, I'm reading about this red carpet thing and my chest is like constricting. Like I feel this heaviness or this tightness or this weirdness in my chest. What is that like? Okay, well that's maybe fear or anxiety or wait, why am I having that? Oh, oh. Because this part is not my intention, right? My intention. The reason why this felt good is because I was gonna go do this. So then this. Other parts of this event are giving. Are making me in my body. Those are the no's, Those are the red flag, right? Green. But this part is red. Do I have to like, so then, Monica, I was so proud of myself because I was like, oh, my body is saying no to this part. So then I was like, oh, okay, I see now what do I have to do is I have to write back this PR agency and write them six paragraphs about how I have an eating disorder so I can't do red carpets. But so here's what my therapist said, like I needed some kind of doctor's note.
- [34:52]
Monica Lewinsky
I know, but it's the little steps. No, but it really is because I mean, it's true because you're showing your body, right? You're showing your body that you're listening. Yes, but I get it. Because I like so some potico. But if just like I feel like, well, I understand the thing now. So why is it still here? Right? It's just. If I see the problem, I understand why I'm this way. Okay, great. So I did the stuff now it should be gone. But it's really, it's incremental. It's so incremental. Even, even just my. I also have a friend, a piss. So not just a somatic therapist and a trauma psychiatrist and my consciousness energy guy. I also have a friend, a pist. And she will often say to me, you know, just lie down for five minutes. Tell your body, we only have five minutes, but we're gonna rest for five minutes so that I listen to my body, you know, and it's. But it's. But good for you though.
- [35:56]
Glennon Doyle
I realized halfway through, what am I doing? I am a grown up. I do not have to. I don't even know this person I'm emailing. Why am I telling this? We don't need to make all these excuses or we don't need to make cases for our nos. I erase the whole thing. And I wrote back and said, abby and I will not be doing the red carpet or any of these interviews. Let us know we will not be arriving. And then I said the time that was 15 minutes before the dinner. Let us know if someone will be there to meet us. And then the person wrote back and said, okay, great. He's like, what is going on? And so yeah, happened in slow motion. Which is the beauty of somatic therapy is you just. We become so dissociated from our bodies and it's for a million reasons. We're surviving our childhoods, we're surviving public trauma, we're surviving hustle culture, we're surviving fascism, we're surviving there are let alone.
- [37:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Epigenetic all the transgenerational stuff. But yeah, we're surviving all these things.
- [37:08]
Glennon Doyle
Yeah. Right. So we have to. Or we think we have to disconnect so that we can, you know, soldier up. And. And then we miss all that. We're like, well, how did I get in this situation? How did I wake up and I'm in this terrible marriage, or I'm in this friendship, or I'm in this toxic job. And it's because there probably were a million different messages from our bodies that said, not this, not this, but we. Our survival technique is to not. Is to power through. So I think it just felt really beautiful yesterday to be like, oh, I listened. I felt like I like you said Like, I'm taking care of myself. Like, it was. You know, people get annoyed when people use the language around, like, your inner child or, you know, people all nauseous. But.
- [37:59]
Monica Lewinsky
It'S true.
- [38:01]
Glennon Doyle
True. I felt like, say I was like, oh, little Glennon. Yeah. God is my witness, we will never do a red carpet again. I will make you do that shit again.
- [38:14]
Monica Lewinsky
It was so great. Yeah, it's so funny. I don't know if Abby is still around, but I brought this thing with me today. But speaking of inner children, just so that we could connect over me having been a soccer player a little. And this is little Monica, little Monka. So lovely. But it's. You know, I have photos. This lives on my bookshelf, and I have photos of me as a little kid all over my apartment on my phone of just trying to remind myself to connect, you know, that the adult me is here. I mean, it does. I know it sounds corny, but I. I think these things are true, and it all ends up integrating. You know, I'm thrilled to hear this story because I think that it is. It can be so hard to recognize that you need to listen to yourself, to actually listen to yourself, to follow through on that and to then have that outcome of, oh, it was easy. It was easy.
- [39:24]
Glennon Doyle
And I think you can think about in terms of, like, what you said about, I mean, not disappearing. Right? That's what I loved yesterday was like, no, I know. I'm not just gonna allow what's not for me to keep me from what is for me. Right? Like, I don't want to be disappeared. I don't want to be. There are things that I am made for, and I can show up for those things, and I can. My way. Right? We don't have to do it the way. Whatever it is, you don't have to do it the way everyone else has done it or the way it's presented to you. You can take a whole experience and say, this, but not that. This part, but not that part. For me, it was helpful to see the stark difference between, okay, showing up at an event and saying. Delivering hopeful words and then standing on a carpet while cameras where everyone's trying to act important. And it's like the most embodied experience compared to the least embodied experience. I'm literally just thinking about how I'm looking on that. Like, being presented with that dichotomy was really helpful to me yesterday because then I can think of all the. The no's are the distant experiences where it's about the gaze of Other people at me. And the yeses are when I actually have something that I think is helpful and healing that I want to say or do. And then I'm out of there and I'm home by 8 and I've got.
- [41:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, it is. It's interesting because I think one of the things I wanted to chat with you on and I think there's an underpinning of it with all of this that we're talking about is the sort of shame and shamelessness. And, you know, and I think it is. It can be. Freeing ourselves from shame is one of the greatest reclamations that we can kind of give ourselves. And you've said this great thing about I'm gonna find it, that shamelessness is your spiritual practice. Like, so what do you mean by that? Like, tell us all the things.
- [41:46]
Glennon Doyle
I think it's tied to what you said about, like, do you feel pressure with all these stories? You know, being. Having told these stories, I think I feel like the definition of shame for me must be when I think that some kind of experience I'm having somehow makes me different than everybody else. And, you know, Dr. Maya Angelou said so many years ago, I am human, so nothing human can be foreign to me. And that's how I. That's the opposite of shame to me, that. The opposite of shame. Shamelessness to me basically means I know I'm not special. That's all shamelessness means to be. It means I might have particular ways that my humanness shows up or manifests that it might be different than ways other people's humanness, whether it's their insecurity or their fear or their trauma or whatever shows up. But we all have the exact same stuff inside of us. And one of the beauties of my life, probably where that comes from is just. I started writing so early in a forum where it was a blogging forum, so people were constantly writing to me, their stories. We still. I mean, my kids know we don't go to a grocery store without somebody telling us their most traumatic story in the grocery store. It's just the way we live.
- [43:18]
Monica Lewinsky
I. I had that for a very long time. But people would come up and tell me about their affairs and it was like, okay, you know, I mean, it was just. I mean, it was. It was very interesting. It was very, very interesting to see that slice of humanity. But it also reflects how thirsty people are to connect.
- [43:38]
Glennon Doyle
I sometimes feel like it's like living as an X ray machine. Like, I. Everyone's constantly showing me their insides. So, yeah, right. So how could you possibly feel shame when you know that you're just. All of your humanness is the same as everybody else's humanness. I don't really. I mean, I think I can dip into shame when I'm forgetting that, like, I had it a little bit recently when I, when I have the thought, oh God, people in my life are going to be so exhausted by this again, like, why am I like this? Why am I still spiraling around the same thing? I think that's like a little touch of dipping into shame, which is full circle to like, why the animal stories help me, right? It's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Spiraling around the same struggle is just the human condition. Like, what a beautiful way. Like, if I were God, I might consider giving every little being down here one particular story to sing, story to tell, song to sing, thing to spiral around lesson to be a particular story, that's a particular lighthouse so that everyone also spiraling around that thing can find them. Like, that sounds like a pretty good.
- [44:59]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, is sort of radical honesty a way that you have dealt with ridding yourself of shame? And how do you navigate that?
- [45:11]
Glennon Doyle
I don't know how to describe how. That's everything to me. I mean it probably because the first time I ever really felt an escape from shame or any ounce of freedom was my first 12 step meeting, which was five years ago.
- [45:27]
Monica Lewinsky
So, wow, Congratulations.
- [45:29]
Glennon Doyle
Thank you. Watching people stand up and like pour their insides out, that happened to me for the first time in those rooms where I was like, oh, this is life. Like this, this, this is where people come to like, be real and tell the truth. Right? Like out in the world, everyone's just like, I'm fining. And I don't blame any of us for feeling very lost when normally all we do is see everyone's representation of themselves. Like, we don't really see their. I wish everybody had the situation where people would come up to them in the grocery store line and tell them their most intimate stories because that's what has made me feel safer and more comfortable.
- [46:15]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, it's interesting you say that because I think that's what we see happens around community tragedy, right? So I lived in New York on 911 or being in LA with the fires, that sort of, that idea of the separateness kind of vanishes. And people, I mean, I remember just hugging strangers, you know, oh, you look sad. Can I give you a hug? And all those norms that are supposed to, I don't know, keep us a culture or Society that we've all weirdly agreed to just disappear. And it's a very different world in those moments, you know.
- [46:58]
Glennon Doyle
Dissociation too. It's like embodiment is an individual thing, but it's also a communal thing, like coming together and remembering that we're not separate little slices of heaven, you know, and it comes and then it goes. And then it comes and then it goes.
- [47:17]
Monica Lewinsky
You mentioned your new book that's coming out, right? Based on its or eponymous to your podcast. We can do hard things, right.
- [47:27]
Glennon Doyle
I have a feeling that this book is going to be the book that helps the most people. I think people are going to be depending on this one in a huge way. I could be wrong. We'll see. But one of the reasons why, I think, is because it happened so organically. So a year ago. Well, I told you, when I got my most recent diagnosis, right, in that same amount of time, it was like six months. I got that diagnosis and my sister was diagnosed with breast cancer and my wife Abby lost her brother. Oh, gosh. Sudden, horrible situation. So it was just this weird time where we were all just screwed at the same time. We just wait, who's in charge then? Who remembers anything? And we started. It started where I would just leave little notes on Abby's pillow. I think the first thing I did was I left her the Samuel Beckett quote that I love so much about grief. It just says, I cannot go on. I must go on. I will go on. And then I started just collecting, like little conversations from the podcast because we have the most mind blowing conversations with the most brilliant people, many of whom we love and know. And some of the magic that happens in those hours have saved me. They're like, somebody says, it's just like, oh. It just makes me remember everything and put everything into perspective. And so I started writing things down from the podcast about grief, keeping them in a little file for Abby and just sending to her every once in a while. And then Abby started doing it for me about body stuff. Wow. And then I started doing it for Amanda about resilience. She was going through a double mastectomy. So we ended up with these gorgeous collections that felt like mirrors because many of the things that we were collecting for each other were things that we had set ourselves.
- [49:27]
Monica Lewinsky
It's like, it's amazing.
- [49:30]
Glennon Doyle
I'm like, dory from Nemo. I'm like, I. I feel like I taught that one. Didn't I write a book about this? Why did I know anything? So we collected those and then I have this Dear friend, I think she was going through some kind of. It wasn't a divorce, but some kind of awful breakup. And I just sent it to her. I was like, just. I don't know, maybe this will be helpful. I sent her all three files, and she wrote me back a week later. Was like, I don't. That is the most helpful thing anyone has ever sent me. And can you make one for every category of life? Wow. Laughed. And then a week later, I was like, I need one of those for every life.
- [50:15]
Monica Lewinsky
That's a good two.
- [50:19]
Glennon Doyle
So we started collecting, and then we started arranging them all into, like, arcs for every. So we figured out that every category of life actually has a question underneath it. If it's grief, it's like, the question is really, like, how the hell do I go on? Right? Or with parenting. We were. We just. We don't. We didn't even know what the question was. For sex and parenting. Our working titles were Parenting, Sex, what the fuck? Yeah, for the book. But basically that was our question. We were like, this is a book. And then shit just got too hard. Like, my sister was going in for her surgery, and she. So my sister helps me. I mean, she's half of everything that I do, and she was out of commission, and I couldn't keep it all together, and I just decided to cancel it. I just was like, something has to give. I can't make this book right now. And so I wrote to our dear friend and colleague Valerie and said, we have to stop. And she knew everything that was going on. She wrote back and she wrote me this paragraph that was basically like, I totally understand that this needs to stop right now, but just know that when this is, when you're ready to pick this back up, this is the book that I wanted to give Frida, her daughter, that I. Everything that I want her to know about being a human on this planet.
- [51:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [51:43]
Glennon Doyle
And then I was like, well, I honestly had the thought a couple weeks later, I have to make that, because I don't want to just give my kids untamed. Like, they're sitting there, like, I want. Like, I just don't want that to be it. So we spent the next. And. And then it was like, during our healing time that we were this. Right. It was like, yeah. So hopeful. Because it reminded us. We actually do know a lot. It reminded us that there are these, like, anchors you can come back to that kind of bring you back to yourself, returning to your body, returning to what's true. So, see, like, here's the Thing. I freaking love this book. When I'm talking to you about it, it feels so good and. Right. So this is part of the. How I have to figure out how to do Ocean of Art. Because there's. Feels really good in ways. It feels really bad. So.
- [52:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. Well, you're creative. So I also. I think sometimes when things have been done a certain way and people are very used to that, we don't allow ourselves to be creative in. How can I make this thing work for both of us? You know, how can I give you what you need, but also take care of myself? And I have no doubt that you will find those ways. I have one quick question and then I'm gonna ask you our last question that we ask everybody. But so just because I know the amazing Sarah Paulson very well with her having played Linda Tripp. And so I just. Is there. Is there any update that you're allowed to share on the Untamed? Is it going to be a TV limited, Right. Or is it a movie or don't want to talk about it?
- [53:29]
Glennon Doyle
I think what I can say about it right now is that we are going to find a way to do it that feels embodied and good. Good and in integrity and safe. And we haven't found it yet, but I believe that we will. One of the being that I do not believe that the universe brought me to Sarah Paulson for no reason. I'm absolutely.
- [54:02]
Monica Lewinsky
She's an extraordinary human being.
- [54:04]
Glennon Doyle
Extraordinary and a dear friend. And I know that there's something. But I'm not. There's no part of me that wants to have a TV show just to have a TV show. And so I won't do anything until it's. Exactly. Yeah.
- [54:21]
Monica Lewinsky
So I like to ask everybody at the end of reclaiming if there's anything that you are working on to reclaim right now. And that could be, you know, the answer. Could be anything. It could be a part of your identity or an emotion, a place, a thing.
- [54:39]
Glennon Doyle
Okay. And this is so, so weird, but I'm just going to tell you what came up for me when you said that. Okay? So not too long ago, a friend sent me a gift in the form of an astrologist who came to my house. And my whole life I've been very connected to my Pisces identity.
- [55:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay.
- [55:03]
Glennon Doyle
It's like no matter what went wrong, I was like, well, I'm a Pisces. Possibly check my email. I can't possibly call you back. I can't do taxes. I'm a Pisces. Like, I just it was very important. I used Pisces as like this freaking astrologist comes and tells me, I'm going to tell you something that might be a little jarring. And that is because you were born at 5:21 on March 21, not a Pisces, you're an Aries.
- [55:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [55:38]
Glennon Doyle
Monica. Yeah, I'm just.
- [55:40]
Monica Lewinsky
I'm an astrology person, so I understand the life quake that that is of. Yeah.
- [55:47]
Glennon Doyle
I thought I was straight. I'm queer. I thought I was a Christian. I mean, anorexic. I thought, like, if I'm. If somebody tells me I'm a Republican, I'm done here. Anyway, it was tough one for me. But the cool thing about it is that I actually. Because I went to like three different astrologists to try to. Try to get them to say that I actually was a Pisces still. Like, I just wanted someone to write me the note that said, I don't deal with this situation. And the last one said, I can't tell you that because I'm looking at your chart and I think you have to. I think what it's telling us is that you have to embrace this part of you. Right. That rang true to me because I think I've used. I think a lot of us have stories about ourselves that we use to not be fully human or like, claim. And so I think I am trying to reclaim whatever the hell this Aries part of me.
- [56:54]
Monica Lewinsky
This is an amazing story. And I think when you sit down to start, because you're gonna write about it, whether it's a newsletter or in a next, there's gonna be something for you. When you sit down and you start writing about this, it's really fascinating. It's really fascinating. I've heard people say that, like, you know, you can have your palm read and that you can change, your palm can change and your fate can change. So I think that's. I think, you know, as a Leo sun, Libra rising, Taurus moon. I'm very into this story and I just could talk to you for hours.
- [57:37]
Glennon Doyle
And I just wanna say that I loved this conversation.
- [57:40]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I'm so glad. Me too. Me too. I just thank you so much for all the ways that you and Abby and Amanda, you in particular, with a lot of your writing that you just. You share with all of us. And it just helps a lot of people feel less alone, feel seen. And, you know, I'm rooting for you in all the things.
- [58:04]
Glennon Doyle
I am rooting in all the things. You're brilliant. You're so kind and good and smart and interesting and truly, I'm. I've loved this hour and I'm so glad you're doing. And please be in touch anytime.
- [58:20]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky Production Services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery, Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.