Grace Van Patten (3:19)

It was the best, I have to say. Thank you for saying that. That means a lot. I was. I've never been so fearful of doing something.

Monica Lewinsky (3:29)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (3:29)

I've never been so. Just scared to approach something like that one, because, I mean, I just get fearful when I'm really passionate about something because I want to do a good job. But every person I met along the way, you, Warren, kj, Amanda, like, each person just eased my nerves more and more and made me feel so safe and comfortable to do this thing, which I'm so grateful for, because that's everything. When you're trying to. When you're tackling anything that you care about, to feel safe is like, number one.

Monica Lewinsky (4:04)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (4:04)

Number one. To feel trusted.

Monica Lewinsky (4:05)

That's an interesting point. Yeah, exactly. And that's not just. Not just acting.

Grace Van Patten (4:11)

No.

Monica Lewinsky (4:11)

It's really everything we step into in life that's interesting. So you were not even born in 1998 when my happened. I was two. Oh, you were two. Okay.

Grace Van Patten (4:20)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (4:20)

And how old were you then? Don't make me do math. So if you don't make me do math. Yeah. I'm like, how old were you when Amanda's like.

Grace Van Patten (4:32)

I was like, 11.

Monica Lewinsky (4:34)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (4:34)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (4:35)

And were you aware. Aware of her story at the time?

Grace Van Patten (4:39)

I remember when I. Cause my first insight into really what happened was the Netflix documentary when I was older, but I knew her name. It was just everywhere that Amanda Knox was engraved in my mind as some person that I had heard a lot about but didn't know the details. So when I watched the documentary, I think in 2015 or 16, is when I really learned about it and could not believe it. Yeah. I've told this story already, but I called my agents right away. It was like I had just started acting professionally. And I called them and said, is there anything being made about Amanda Knox? I find her so fascinating and would love to be a part of something or play her. And it was just a feeling I had, which is so crazy.

Monica Lewinsky (5:35)

That is so interesting. I knew you had been connected to her story, but I didn't know that you had called your agents and said that.

Grace Van Patten (5:42)

And they were like, no.

Monica Lewinsky (5:43)

Can you say what you've called them to ask them about if there other.

Grace Van Patten (5:48)

If there are other.

Monica Lewinsky (5:48)

Like, are there other roles you're manifesting that's I.

Grace Van Patten (5:52)

There was a time where I asked them about, like, a Courtney Love biopic.

Monica Lewinsky (5:56)

Oh, that's interesting.

Grace Van Patten (5:57)

That I was curious about. And then certain. Certain books, sometimes I'll ask, but I feel like Amanda was kind of the only person where I was like, I want to play her.

Monica Lewinsky (6:10)

Yeah, It's. I think what is. Can be really fascinating about these stories and sitting, you know, sitting on the side where Amanda does, of having been a subject of one of these stories that you really like. You have your own experiences, but then you come to understand how the story's situated in society and how it impacted people. Right. So, you know, you're 11. You're a few years away from, you know, college age or being her age. And I think for me, I've heard from so Many women from 98 what happened of just being impacted by how they saw their own sexuality, what it meant to be a young woman growing up. And so I think that in. In many ways, Amanda was one of those people. I mean, we're starting to see more, I think. Right. Britney Spears and a lot of other young women who were. And Lindsay Lohan like, catapulted, whether by choice or not, onto the world stage in a way that they hadn't anticipated or chosen. In some ways, even. Even I think people like Brittney and Lindsay Lohan of stepping into this, you know, they were performers.

Grace Van Patten (7:24)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (7:24)

That's. That's not exactly what you bargained for, to become a sort of sexual poster child. Oh, my gosh. For older people. So it's just.

Grace Van Patten (7:32)

People forget how young Britney Spears was during that time, too, which is wild.

Monica Lewinsky (7:37)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (7:38)

But, yeah, you're so right as a woman, watching another woman go through something like that, whether that's you or Amanda or Britney Spears, it's. It really puts a lot of things into perspective. And like, anything, I think it's just an innate woman empathy. You see a woman going through something, and you think, what would I. Yeah. How crazy and unimaginable that would be if it was me.

Monica Lewinsky (8:02)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (8:03)

And that's. That's how I felt about Amanda every day of working on that. It was like I was just constantly reminded that this could have happened to anybody. To me, to my sister, to my friend, like. And that was so. So trippy to think about and surreal to think about.

Monica Lewinsky (8:25)

Did you find going into the role or while you were, you know, in it, and you were so in it because, I mean, you were in almost. You were in almost every scene of this show, and you also learned Italian for it, and because we didn't shoot in order. It meant that you might have a day where you're in one scene where you know very little Italian and another scene where you're incredibly proficient, but. Which must have been so hard.

Grace Van Patten (8:56)

It was nerve wracking. But I feel like they were. They were aware of how difficult that could be and they really did plan it in a way that the first few months were mostly scenes where I didn't know Italian that well. And through that time I could learn it as much as possible.

Monica Lewinsky (9:14)

So.

Grace Van Patten (9:14)

Yeah, the big speeches were at the end, all of that. Thank goodness.

Monica Lewinsky (9:18)

Yeah. Thank you, Kathy Siric, Our amazing lines. Thank you, Kathy.

Grace Van Patten (9:22)

Seriously.

Monica Lewinsky (9:22)

And the directors and everything. Yeah. Just from the, from the producer side, it was so important to everyone that you feel, that you feel safe and you feel held and comfortable in all the ways that we.

Grace Van Patten (9:33)

And it's rare, it's like you'd think that would be a common thing, but it's. I think it's rare that or I think it's common in this business. Like, it's a very. For what seems and what we hope to be a very collaborative job, it can kind of end up in a every man for himself type of way in a lot of things I've been a part of.

Monica Lewinsky (9:59)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (10:00)

And you kind of get used to that in a way. And so when you feel like someone is just being thoughtful, it's. It really means a lot.

Monica Lewinsky (10:09)

Well, I think it's a. It was, It's a. It's a very heavy story, you know, and so I think to have, you know, when you step out and you look a 20 or 20 year old young woman, goes to Italy, doesn't know the language very well, is wrongfully convicted in prison for four years, you know, then exonerated and, and still contends with not being totally free. And the darkness that this really, you know, the seed of all of this was the, Was Meredith's horrible murder. And so, I mean, it just. There's a lot of darkness in this. And I think we, you know, we all wanted. Not just for you, but for everyone on the show, the writers in the room. I mean, there's just, there's a recognition of the heaviness of what you're holding when it's, when it's real people.

Grace Van Patten (10:59)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (10:59)

You know, did you feel a responsibility, a different kind of responsibility? Because Amanda's a real person and this was a real.

Grace Van Patten (11:07)

Yeah, of course. Of course. I had never played a real person before. I'd always wanted to. It definitely came with a. A Pressure. Pressure seems negative to me, but. Yeah. A duty to do justice to the story and to Amanda.

Monica Lewinsky (11:30)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (11:30)

And. But. But really, all that did is make me work harder and think more about it in a way that maybe I wouldn't pay as much attention to detail if I wasn't playing a real human. And that has taught me so much, because I want to bring that to every character I do, even if they are not living in the world as a human, but, like, treat them as if they are. It brings so much more nuance and specificity to each character. I feel like.

Monica Lewinsky (12:01)

Yeah. Jurnee Smollett was on recently, and it was an amazing episode, and she was talking about just sort of the. I think, like, the depth of character building that one does, you know, and trying to understand all the ways that a character might move through the world. That is sort of interesting. I love.

Grace Van Patten (12:22)

I want to listen to that. I'm always curious to hear people.

Monica Lewinsky (12:24)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (12:25)

Because there's so many. There's no right or wrong way to do it, and there's a million ways.

Monica Lewinsky (12:29)

Right. So I found. I'm curious. Just, you know, younger generation. I. There was so much that I was surprised by in Amanda's story. Did you find yourself, like, even having seen the doc and whatever you had known about her first, been intrigued by her story, did you also find, you know, surprising moments?

Grace Van Patten (12:52)

Absolutely. I mean, I feel like every day, just from reading the scripts or speaking to her, I mean, just the mere facts of the case are shocking.

Monica Lewinsky (13:04)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (13:05)

Like, I didn't. I knew there was no evidence. Like, I had heard there was no evidence, but I didn't know there was zero evidence.

Monica Lewinsky (13:15)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (13:15)

Like, that is so crazy to me. Yeah. And all the details of the trials and the actual interrogation. Heartbreaking, tragic surprises. Yeah. But I feel like the biggest surprise I've spoken about is just her attitude in present day.

Monica Lewinsky (13:35)

Yeah. Amazing.

Grace Van Patten (13:37)

Yeah. I just. I. It's like what we were talking about. We look at these people who go through these things, and I can't imagine being in a situation like that. And then I meet somebody like you or Amanda, who have had this public scrutiny, and both of you. I speak about this all the time. You. The fact that you are able to maintain positivity and hope for the world, and you both are so extremely strong and confident women and did not let this bad thing that happened to you defeat you. And that was the most inspiring thing I got out of the whole thing.

Monica Lewinsky (14:16)

Thanks, Grace.

Grace Van Patten (14:16)

It really is. Yeah. I'm in awe of that.

Monica Lewinsky (14:20)

Well, I think it was A. It was a really important part of why we wanted to tell the story. You know, that sort of the micro is specifically Amanda, you know, and her deserving for her story to be revisited in these ways. But the macro is hope for other people, hope for other young women looking at, you know, sort of reflecting back to people once again. Okay, this is what we. This is what we do to young women on the global stage in a negative scenario. You know, and so that's the, I think so much importance of storytelling, you know, that is. In that way. But it's interesting too, when you talk about the responsibility feeling because Beanie Feldstein was on and she had, you know, played me in Ryan Murphy's impeachment. And so that, you know, she too felt that. That sense, that added weight of just, you know, holding someone's history in their hands and in that way, which. Which is interesting, how much did you.

Grace Van Patten (15:28)

Guys talk throughout that process? Was it more of like an after the fact thing or was it kind of consistent?

Monica Lewinsky (15:35)

Well, so I think what's interesting is I feel like the show in general, there were so many things that were somewhat anomalies because it was filmed during COVID Oh, I didn't know that.

Grace Van Patten (15:47)

Yeah. Oh, wow.

Monica Lewinsky (15:49)

Yeah. So it meant. And. And Beanie had sensitivities to that too, like ways that she needed to be extra careful. So we zoomed a good amount and we spent one time. It's like we spent a few hours over zoom. I. I brought out my big box of photos of just like from childhood. And just because I felt like that was a more organic way for me to storytell. Yeah. And just for her to get a sense of my relationships with my family or friends or from that time frame of, you know, this was me in college just a few months before I, you know, went off. Here I am drunk. Graduation night. That was the first time I had a pot brownie was on graduate. I went to college in Portland, Oregon too. So, like, the fact that I smoked pie, I was super late. The best part of it was that I didn't know that they were laced with pie. And so I don't even know that's the right way to say it. I'm such a loser. But I was like, oh, these brownies are really good. And I had three.

Grace Van Patten (16:52)

Oh, God.

Monica Lewinsky (16:52)

And so it was just.

Grace Van Patten (16:54)

It was a pretty similar experience. Pretty.

Monica Lewinsky (16:56)

Yeah. What happened?

Grace Van Patten (16:58)

I took. I ate a brownie before a school field trip that I also didn't know. And all these kids were eating brownies. I'm like, why are, why are all the cool kids eating brownies before this trip? And I, I ate one. And it was a field trip to the Museum of Moving Image.

Monica Lewinsky (17:14)

Oh my God.

Grace Van Patten (17:15)

So I get there and I'm like, like, everything's like, there's strobe lights, there's like optical illusions. And I, I thought I was going to die. I had to call my mom and be like, mom, I ate a pot brownie. You need to come pick me up. And she did. And my sister was like two in the backseat, like. And I'm like looking at my two year old sister like, what's going on? So, yeah, I've been there.

Monica Lewinsky (17:39)

Yeah, it's the worst. It is. So. And I, I think that it was, you know what, what was really important to me too was that beanie kind of have this. I don't know if I may be able to say it the right way, but it was like for her to have this space to bring what she thought was the emotional truth, you know, to the thing, because it was while there were a lot of specific details about what happened to me that were really important for people to understand. Like, Amanda, I mean, I joke. Okay, my interrogation was at Ritz Carlton, but.

Grace Van Patten (18:12)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (18:12)

You know, but still scary to be in a ballroom with like 11 men. But, you know, I think that there was. So there were these certain details and facts and aspects of the narrative that were really important to me, but was also important to me was that people kind of try to find their own connection to the story and to what happened to me. And I felt that, that by her bringing an emotional truth that was true to her, that might resonate with people, you know, So I think there's that, that balance there. But she too felt an enormous responsibility. And it's a bond that kind of never. It never goes away, you know?

Grace Van Patten (18:55)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (19:02)

Reclaiming is brought to you by Audible. If you're a regular to Reclaiming, you've probably heard me going on about Audible. Well, let me explain why. It's totally transformed my downtime in the best way possible. Because, you know those moments in your day where you can't just rest, like when you're stuck in traffic or folding laundry, Listening to Audible has made them so much more enjoyable. No joke. Since I started listening on Audible, these little chunks of my day have actually become something I look forward to. For example, the other day I was just doing my usual Sunday tidying and organizing, which usually drives me crazy. But I barely noticed the time passing because I was so hooked on this incredible audiobook and as a member, you get access to thousands of included titles, books, podcasts, all that good stuff. So sign up for a free 30 day trial and your first audiobook is free. Visit audible.com reclaiming that's audible.com reclaiming. So, like, going into acting, you come from this sort of acting. Not acting, but Hollywood Dynasty. Right. So your. Your uncle being in eight is enough. Dick Van Patten. Right. And your dad, Tim Van Patten, an amazing director. Right. With Sopranos and another big show. The other big show shit.

Grace Van Patten (20:28)

Game of Thrones.

Monica Lewinsky (20:30)

Okay. Game of Thrones. Right. So, I mean, did you feel like acting was. That was the path that was laid out for you? Did your family try and steer you to a different path, but you just kept coming back? Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (20:44)

I mean, it was something I was really surrounded by, and so it felt natural to, like, ease my way into that, but it was. I didn't know that I wanted to do it as a career until I started doing it professionally. It was something I always loved and admired. And I just loved movies as a kid and watching. Visiting my dad on set and watching actors do their thing, but it really felt like a hobby and that I just love to do in school or whatever until I graduated high school. That's when I was like, I want to try this out.

Monica Lewinsky (21:28)

You went to the Fame high school, right?

Grace Van Patten (21:30)

LaGuardia.

Monica Lewinsky (21:31)

So you were interested enough to study there, right? Yeah. Okay. And how. I'm sure this is like a dumb question that probably get asked a lot, but how. How similar to the TV show.

Grace Van Patten (21:43)

I mean, it's there. I remember visiting there before I applied and there literally were kids dancing on the tables. Oh, my gosh, this is amazing.

Monica Lewinsky (21:54)

Yeah. Yeah. I want to go to school here.

Grace Van Patten (21:56)

Yeah. Like, this isn't normal high school.

Monica Lewinsky (21:58)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (21:59)

But it was. It's so. It's like a passion pit of all these young kids who are so in love with this art that they chose to do for four years. And there was just so much personality and it was very. I couldn't. I really can't imagine going to a regular high school. Like, I don't know what that experience would even be like.

Monica Lewinsky (22:22)

Okay, do you have things like. I mean, is there sport? Like, is there homecoming and no prom.

Grace Van Patten (22:28)

No homecoming. There's a prom at like the end of senior year.

Monica Lewinsky (22:31)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (22:32)

And it was at like the 42nd street, like, Hilton. Hilton Hotel or something?

Monica Lewinsky (22:37)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (22:38)

Because there's 800 kids. Like, oh, my gosh, Great. So my senior class is like, 800. I don't.

Monica Lewinsky (22:44)

Wow.

Grace Van Patten (22:45)

Knew. Probably Less than half of the kids.

Commercial Announcer (22:47)

Oh, my gosh.

Monica Lewinsky (22:48)

I didn't realize it was so big.

Grace Van Patten (22:50)

Yeah, it's massive.

Monica Lewinsky (22:51)

Oh, how interesting. And are you still in touch with anyone from.

Grace Van Patten (22:55)

Yeah, all my. All my best. Best friends are like, my high school girlfriends.

Monica Lewinsky (22:59)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (22:59)

And none of them are in the business anyway. Yeah, like, they're all very creative, but they're all in New York still, and.

Monica Lewinsky (23:08)

They'Re the best with your family.

Grace Van Patten (23:10)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (23:11)

Did you get advice from them and just in terms of going into the.

Grace Van Patten (23:17)

Business, because my dad is in it. He knows all the scary, unpredictable parts about it. And so I think it was like, you only do this if you really fucking love it.

Monica Lewinsky (23:31)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (23:31)

Like, it is. It can be really hard if you don't, I imagine, and really hard if you do. But, yeah, the rejection and the unpredictability and just inconsistency. And so they. They really were like, we fully support. If you want to do this. Just, you know, be. Be sure. They always. They always gave me the advice of, like, let it. Let it take you. Like, don't. Don't not go to college because you want to be an actor. Don't drop out just because you want to go on auditions. Like, have it. Have there be a reason to go. And. And that's what happened. I. I got into usc. I was gonna go to usc, and I deferred a year because I didn't know if I wanted to continue studying acting or. I was, like, randomly into marine biology at one point. I was like, I wanna do the marine biology program and go to Catalina island every day.

Monica Lewinsky (24:29)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (24:30)

And so I didn't know. And I didn't wanna waste time and money studying something I didn't know I wanted to do. So I decided to take a gap year and I took classes at a community college. Just, like, things I was interested in. Random. Like criminal psychology and philosophy.

Monica Lewinsky (24:51)

I did a law and psych class.

Grace Van Patten (24:52)

It's so interesting. And I was like, I'm never. I'm probably not gonna do that when I go to college. So I just, like, took things that, I don't know, could maybe scratch an itch or enlighten. I don't know. And then within that year, I met my manager and she started sending me out on auditions. And I got my first job that went too far into the school year, so I deferred USC again and started working. So it happened in a way that I didn't feel like I gave up everything to try and pursue this, and it happened more naturally. And I tried to see if There were other paths that were worth going down or other things that I was interested in. And it. I do feel like I was pulled in a direction that I just went with.

Monica Lewinsky (25:43)

What's your method? Like, are you a. Because, I mean, I. I saw you on set.

Grace Van Patten (25:47)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (25:48)

So I would see you engage in a role, and then, you know, you would engage with us as Grace.

Grace Van Patten (25:53)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (25:54)

So. Right. Grace with a little hint of Amanda. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Grace Van Patten (25:58)

Which is probably subconscious.

Monica Lewinsky (26:00)

Right. Okay. So I don't know. Who is it? Isn't it Daniel Day Lew Lewis who's fully method. Right, exactly. So that's not your.

Grace Van Patten (26:07)

No, no. I've never. I've never approached it that way. I really don't know. I don't know what my method. I'm like, okay, I figure it out with each role. I approach every role kind of differently, depending on what it is and what it requires. Like, how I approached playing Amanda was something I've never done before. You know, I've never had to research for a role and, like, really look into, you know, things that existed in the world. It was mostly about creating a human from the ground up. And this was a lot about how I kind of combine the meld Amanda and bring myself, like you were saying, like, bring my own emotional truth to it, and while still honoring her essence, which was so important because it's a huge part of the story. Her personality was like. She was used against her and was very scrutinized. So that was very important to me to get right. But, yeah, it's really different. And I would say the only common thing that I do that's kind of a through line with each role is I really try and envision the world in which the character is living in, whether that's with music or going to the place where I think they're from or, like, creating the world around them first.

Monica Lewinsky (27:36)

Right. So, like, a felt sense of who they were.

Grace Van Patten (27:40)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (27:41)

And where they were and what was impacting them. That's really interesting.

Grace Van Patten (27:45)

Yeah. What time it is.

Monica Lewinsky (27:47)

Did you find with Amanda that. Were there parts of yourself that you sort of were able to bring to the role or. Yeah. So what did that. What was that like for you? What did that look like?

Grace Van Patten (27:59)

I think there are parts of myself that I was totally able to ignite and enhance because it's, like, so much of, like, turning up the knobs. Turning down the knobs on yourself. And I feel like if you really try, you can connect to anybody in some way. And so to find those common grounds were like, I totally Have a quirky, like theater kid.

Monica Lewinsky (28:28)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (28:29)

Energy in me that like, was maybe more enhanced when I was a kid. And it was like bringing out the childlike qualities in me or the excitable qualities that I totally have and curiosity like those. Those traits I feel like were. Were bumped up a lot while playing.

Monica Lewinsky (28:50)

Yeah, that's. You said something that I've never really thought about this connection before, but about sort of the ability to tap into anyone. It made me think about a psychic, like an intuitive. Of just that. Right. That ability to sort of read someone's energy or to go into their. Their field in a sense. And I just hadn't. I don't think I'd really thought about acting that way before. That's kind of interesting.

Grace Van Patten (29:15)

I mean, it could be. I don't know. I like, especially with playing a real person, it's like you're not like other characters I've had to create. I mean, I have the script and what they're saying, but you still have to like create.

Monica Lewinsky (29:31)

Fill in the blanks.

Grace Van Patten (29:32)

Yeah, fill in the blanks. And this was a character that was right in front of me and that I had access to. And it was. It was kind of filling in the blanks with her, which is. Which was so new to me and really exciting and really nerve wracking. But like, did you have.

Monica Lewinsky (29:53)

Did you have. Like. I'm a big ritual person, right. So I'm sort of, you know, like a bath will signal to me at the end of the day, you know, like those kinds of things. Did you have certain rituals that you had to put in place while working on the show because you were working so much on set and it was so just heavy, you know, like ways that you felt at the end of the day. Okay, I've got a disconnect. Like I'm grace now.

Grace Van Patten (30:19)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (30:19)

You know that you sort of reclaimed and found yourself again. Even if it was gonna only be for a few hours until.

Grace Van Patten (30:25)

Yeah, you know, I did. It's so weird, like the rituals I get into with each job.

Monica Lewinsky (30:31)

Cause it's.

Grace Van Patten (30:31)

There are rituals that I don't carry through in my everyday life.

Monica Lewinsky (30:35)

Oh, interesting.

Grace Van Patten (30:35)

Like with Amanda, I was stretching every. Which I have never done before that and have not done after that. It's probably because I knew I had to do a split at some point. And I was like, shit, I don't know if I can do a split. So maybe subconsciously I was like, get up, stretch.

Monica Lewinsky (30:55)

Yeah. But Amanda's also very much in her body.

Grace Van Patten (30:58)

She is. She is into yoga. And running and. Yeah. So there was something that I was tapping into there. But after work, I really enjoyed just doing absolutely nothing.

Monica Lewinsky (31:11)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (31:12)

And what gave me comfort was doing some work when I got home. Whether that was like learning some Italian because I get so fearful if I don't work on something. Everything's gonna like, disappear or I'm gonna be terrible. So I like, spend some time either learning lines or working on Italian. And then there's a pool in the bottom of my building that again, a thing that I've never done before or after, but I was like swimming laps. And that was the most calming thing. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (31:44)

I feel like someone told me at one point who had been recommending swimming to me that there's something about the rhythm, that the rhythm of swimming kind of settles your nervous system.

Grace Van Patten (31:57)

That makes sense. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (31:59)

And moving through water.

Grace Van Patten (32:01)

Yes. Sort of just very calming.

Monica Lewinsky (32:03)

I find sometimes that transition time of just, you know, I think the almost the opposite for me is I feel really weird when someone I know comes to watch me give a speech.

Grace Van Patten (32:15)

Oh. Oh, my gosh. I would too.

Monica Lewinsky (32:17)

I do. It just feels. Because there's a. There's just a way you have to kind of step into a bigger energy. And I feel like. I don't know, I'm embarrassed. That's not who I am.

Grace Van Patten (32:27)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (32:28)

I don't know. It just feels weird to me.

Grace Van Patten (32:30)

Feel that. I mean, public speaking is my worst fear ever. I don't know how you do it.

Monica Lewinsky (32:35)

Well, I learned. I went and I took a training from these amazing people in London who. Their whole mission AGL is the company. And they helped me find my authentic voice because I knew what I didn't want. I knew I did not want someone to write something for me and then teach me how to. I knew something had. It had to come from me.

Grace Van Patten (32:57)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (32:57)

And so I needed help in figuring out how. How to pull that out of me. And they gave me a lot of self confidence too. And then I worked with someone who had been in theater on delivery. Because the way you, you know, like in your head.

Grace Van Patten (33:14)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (33:14)

There's in my head how I would think I was communicating with my body or my tone. And then there's reality.

Grace Van Patten (33:23)

And the chasm was pretty big. Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (33:25)

Between the two. So I just felt like I like you. Like I don't want to make a fool of myself. I haven't done this before.

Grace Van Patten (33:32)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (33:32)

So. And I feel that way when I'm, you know, doing inter. I just over prepare for everything because I'm always afraid of up.

Grace Van Patten (33:39)

So. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (33:40)

My like my cheat sheet.

Grace Van Patten (33:42)

No, it's good. And there needs to be more accepted, like, or just. It shouldn't be embarrassing to have a thing, have something in front of you happen. Like, it is so normal. I feel like we're all so expected to be there and have it come out of our brains, when in reality, if you don't have paper, you've memorized it.

Monica Lewinsky (34:00)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (34:01)

So it's like just normalize, you know, having your safety little things perfect.

Monica Lewinsky (34:07)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (34:07)

Yeah. Well, that's what normalizing imperfection is, right?

Monica Lewinsky (34:10)

Exactly. Yeah. No, it's always something I'm trying to balance in myself of just that.

Grace Van Patten (34:19)

I.

Monica Lewinsky (34:19)

Think it's trying to find the balance of showing up authentically, but also, for me, it's dealing with my PTSD and sort of like, what do I need to do in order to show up? How do I show up? As much of me as possible, you know, that's here. So it just. Yeah, it's a weird fucking thing. Absolutely.

Grace Van Patten (34:42)

It's. It is weird. It's why I act, because I. I so scared to be myself. Like, it's way. It's way easier to be other people.

Monica Lewinsky (34:52)

I love who you are. Don't say that. I know.

Grace Van Patten (34:57)

In the public eye. Right.

Monica Lewinsky (34:58)

I get it. I know what you mean.

Grace Van Patten (35:00)

To be on camera as someone else is way easier than to be on camera, you know?

Monica Lewinsky (35:05)

Yeah, no, I get it. I totally get it. Now, in your personal life, you and your boyfriend on Tell Me Lies is also your boyfriend in real life.

Grace Van Patten (35:16)

In real life.

Monica Lewinsky (35:16)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (35:18)

Very twisted.

Monica Lewinsky (35:18)

Yeah. Another twisted tale.

Grace Van Patten (35:20)

Another twisted tale.

Monica Lewinsky (35:22)

And so what's that? Do you like, what's the engagement like for both of you? When you're out in the public eye or on social media, if you even read that stuff of just people's sort of parasocial relationship? It's like the parasocial relationship that can happen with just an actor, but when you're a couple.

Grace Van Patten (35:39)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (35:40)

What is. What is that like for both of you?

Grace Van Patten (35:43)

It's. It's pretty funny. It's like, I think by fans, we're really seen as, like, real people. Like, we are our characters. For fans that watch the show, I think it just. I don't know if it's the show that makes it, because it is so. It's so. These people are so horrible to each other, and it really has a feeling of, like, reality tv.

Monica Lewinsky (36:10)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (36:10)

It. Like, it's very juicy and very horrible things that people can relate to, but they're also, like, the worst things you can imagine.

Monica Lewinsky (36:20)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (36:20)

And so the fans are really visceral about it.

Monica Lewinsky (36:24)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (36:25)

And people really hate Jackson's character, Steven. And so out in the world, it's really fun. Like, people will ask us to take a picture and be like, I love you to me and I fucking hate you. Do you. Or like, in the beginning, when people didn't know that we were dating yet, they'd see us on the street and people would yell at me, like, get away from him. Or, like, run. And so it was, like, very visceral and crazy. I think it's harder for Jackson. Cause I see him be like, he does not want to. He desperately doesn't want to be seen the opening.

Monica Lewinsky (37:00)

He's such a sweet energy.

Grace Van Patten (37:01)

He's such a sweet, gentle soul. And he's just like, he. He has a harder time being seen as that guy.

Monica Lewinsky (37:10)

Right, right.

Grace Van Patten (37:10)

Because people don't know the difference, which is. You would. You would think they do, but. But I think. I don't know. I don't know if it. It's the show that breeds that, like, the energy of the show or people. You know, it's a young audience, so maybe that's it. But, yeah, being. Being on the street. But it's also. There's something so beautiful and exciting about going through this together and being recognized together. It's kind of. It's a huge moment for both of us in our careers and to have each other not only just, like, as a partner going through it, but as a partner going through the same thing.

Monica Lewinsky (37:49)

Yeah, that's really interesting.

Grace Van Patten (37:50)

Has been really special.

Monica Lewinsky (37:53)

Were you guys nervous about crossing the line?

Grace Van Patten (37:57)

Well, we were dating before we started filming.

Monica Lewinsky (38:00)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (38:01)

So.

Monica Lewinsky (38:01)

Okay. I don't know the love story.

Grace Van Patten (38:04)

We were. Yeah, we were dating a couple months before we started filming, so. And. And even throughout those months, we were like, this is probably the. The worst idea ever, but you can't help it. You can't help love. So we did it, and we, like, thank goodness it.

Monica Lewinsky (38:22)

Were you dating before you guys auditioned for this? Did, like. Did you audition as a couple or.

Grace Van Patten (38:28)

No.

Monica Lewinsky (38:28)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (38:29)

No. We met doing the series of chemistry reads.

Monica Lewinsky (38:33)

Oh, wow.

Grace Van Patten (38:33)

And he had done all of them. And then we started. We had mutual friends, and we started hanging out like that. And he had not gotten the job yet.

Monica Lewinsky (38:41)

Okay.

Grace Van Patten (38:42)

So it was months of him not knowing if he was gonna do it or not, which we were talking about. We were like, we don't know what's better if you do get it or if you don't get it. And then he got it. So we were dating for Months before actually filming. And it was definitely a conversation of like, let's not flaunt this, but let's not hide it. Like, real life is more important than what we're doing. And, you know, we didn't want to think too hard about it.

Monica Lewinsky (39:13)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (39:13)

But we just wanted to be professional.

Monica Lewinsky (39:16)

Well, I think there's so many couples, right, where both of the people are in the public eye and they're both actors. And I think it's so interesting to see the wide range of, you know, some people who. They're just, okay, we're gonna let it all hang out. Advertising, right? Yeah, the whole thing. And then there are people, you know, you don't even know they're dating until all of a sudden you're like, oh, they got married. What? Right. You know, so there's that piece of it. I mean, I. I guess I've dated some public people. Well, not that way, but, I mean, there was. I don't know. We're not.

Grace Van Patten (39:48)

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Monica Lewinsky (39:49)

Post 98, I have dated some public people.

Grace Van Patten (39:52)

Let's.

Monica Lewinsky (39:52)

Let's go there. And I have just always been, like, really, really private. I'd be super open with my friend, but I'm just very.

Grace Van Patten (40:01)

Of course, I prefer that as well.

Monica Lewinsky (40:10)

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Grace Van Patten (41:52)

I feel like I'm on a constant mission to, like, reclaim my inner child. Whether that's through art or how I see the world, positivity, how I connect with people. I just think the most valuable part that I've taken from that, from my inner child is like, just, I think the lack of self consciousness, which is so. It's the hardest thing.

Monica Lewinsky (42:21)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (42:21)

To do. And I'm constantly insecure about things and self conscious, but when I'm acting at least to, like, shed that as much as possible.

Monica Lewinsky (42:31)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (42:31)

And because it is not me, get rid of that fear of what people are gonna think of me and know that I'm not. If I'm being judged, it's not. I'm not being judged. It's how I'm playing the character, whatever that is. People are gonna have opinions no matter what. But me, Grace, I'm not being judged for what I decide to do in this character. So you might as well just go for it.

Monica Lewinsky (42:58)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (42:59)

And I think it's. I think it's important to feel embarrassed in the process and feel like I think that has helped me. I felt embarrassed so much playing Amanda, but I knew I was doing it right. And you know what helped me is knowing that. I don't think she has not told me this, but from observing her in the world, she does not seem embarrassed.

Monica Lewinsky (43:23)

No.

Grace Van Patten (43:24)

She does not seem self conscious. Like she is so purely herself.

Monica Lewinsky (43:29)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (43:30)

Unabashedly herself.

Monica Lewinsky (43:32)

Yes.

Grace Van Patten (43:32)

And I learned so much from that. And it's like, that's what I feel. Like every character, like, any qualities I love in characters I play, I, like, steal them. I try and steal them. And that is a quality that, like, to be so purely yourself. Unafraid to be yourself and not feel embarrassment.

Monica Lewinsky (43:51)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (43:52)

I'm like, God, I would love to have that. And I really tried to channel that while I was playing her. That meant while I was saying the lines, but also when I was trying something crazy and just accept that I might feel like a fool and embarrassed, but that's okay.

Monica Lewinsky (44:10)

Right. Because she's like Amelie. She's sort of looking for the joy, I think, in every moment.

Grace Van Patten (44:16)

Yeah. And there's like a. There's a beautiful unawareness. Sounds bad, but there's an unawareness to, like, which I wish I had. Like, I'm going to be myself. And it's not like I don't care what people think.

Monica Lewinsky (44:34)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (44:34)

It's just.

Monica Lewinsky (44:34)

You're just focused on being. You're not thinking about. You're not thinking about who other people want you to be.

Grace Van Patten (44:39)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (44:39)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (44:39)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (44:40)

It's interesting because that quote had reminded me of. I have a friend who's a photographer, and he did a whole series where he went to Africa and brought these enormous mirrors and would put the mirrors out in the. In the. On safari or in the jungle.

Grace Van Patten (44:57)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (44:57)

I don't know the right way to say it, but. And what he captured was what it was like for the animals to see themselves for the first time, you know, in that. And so. Yeah, isn't it. And so this whole thing around consciousness, self consciousness, like awareness of the self of just thinking about, what is that? What does that mean to sort of see yourself, you know? And I know with kids, and there was. I remember there was a whole thing in developmental psychology where they talked about. I think it's like when kids up until the age of three, they don't.

Grace Van Patten (45:30)

They don't recognize themselves.

Monica Lewinsky (45:32)

And so if you put red lipstick on a kid's nose and stick them in front of the mirror, they don't know it's them. Right. Like, it's crazy making.

Grace Van Patten (45:40)

That's why peekaboo. They, like, crack up. Because when you hide, they actually think you're gone.

Monica Lewinsky (45:46)

Exactly.

Grace Van Patten (45:46)

Until you're back. It's facial recognition or something. Right.

Monica Lewinsky (45:49)

Facial recognition. And is it theory of mind?

Grace Van Patten (45:53)

Yes.

Monica Lewinsky (45:54)

Right. Something like that. I don't know.

Grace Van Patten (45:56)

The concept of, like, time and just right.

Monica Lewinsky (45:59)

And space. Right. If you put something in the shelf in the cabinet and they can't see it, it's gone.

Grace Van Patten (46:04)

It's gone.

Monica Lewinsky (46:05)

Yeah. No, it's just interesting. I think there is that. I hear a lot on the show when we talk. I'll ask you the last question when we get there. We're not there yet, but we're asking people about what they're working on, reclaiming. And a lot of people. It's sort of this sense of, you know, that. That childhood, that inner child abandonment to joy, you know, just like that.

Grace Van Patten (46:28)

Well, that is my answer, too.

Monica Lewinsky (46:30)

Right.

Grace Van Patten (46:30)

I guess I can expand on it.

Monica Lewinsky (46:32)

We're not there yet.

Grace Van Patten (46:33)

Okay. Okay.

Monica Lewinsky (46:34)

But I. I just wanted to. Well, it's just interesting because you're one of the. If not the youngest, one of the younger guests we've had on so far, and so. And I. So I'm just curious about your perspective, you know, just on where we are in the world of, you know, like, romantic relationships and me too. Where do you see all that shifting, you know, or do you see it shifting from your perspective in your generation? And that's a pretty big question.

Grace Van Patten (47:05)

Yeah, I mean, I do think, without a doubt, with single people, with people who are in relationships, there's just so much more of an open conversation about awareness and consent and accountability, and I think that's a huge plus. I also think women are going into relationships knowing what they deserve and don't deserve. There's an empowerment to having that line be a little thicker of what you don't cross over. And I think there's just a sense of knowing what you deserve, and I think that's amazing. Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (47:50)

Yeah. I was on a women's listserv for a while, and during in 2017 and 18, sort of MeToo 2.0, and it was really fascinating to kind of see in this, you know, one place in black and white, you know, on the screen of different generations, reactions to, you know, to what was happening of I'm Gen X. But some of the boomers and even silent generation women on the thread who were very much like, just deal with it. Like, this is what we dealt with and Gen X and kind of, you know, maybe some of the older millennials of metabolizing everything and really relensing so many of our own experiences, and then the younger generations who. There was a sense of, of course this is how this should be. Of course this is how it should be. Changing that. Like, what are you talking about? You know, and sometimes the clashes of having very different. Different views on those things. I think one of the things that we've seen from. With Amanda's show, with Twisted Tail, with. With impeachment, with some of the, you know, Britney Spears documentary and a whole bunch of these stories and revisiting young women's stories that have been consumed by the media, consumed by the public.

Grace Van Patten (49:08)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (49:09)

Do you think that if they. Because I get asked this a lot, so I'm curious, from your perspective and generation, do you think if some of those stories, those things unfolded today that they would be viewed in the same way? Do you think they would be different? Like, would we have those kinds of stories and scandals like that again today? Do you think?

Grace Van Patten (49:32)

I would love to hear what you have to say about this as somebody who went through it and know it and thinking how it. How it would be different for you. But I do. I guess what would be an advantage and a disadvantage is how social media amplifies everything. And with that there are millions of other voices and potential noise for a scandal like that to happen. Meaning, like there will be so many opinions floating around.

Monica Lewinsky (50:07)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (50:08)

But also so many voices that can support. Like. I think it would create a. It's just a stronger sense of support. And that could be really beneficial.

Monica Lewinsky (50:21)

Yeah.

Grace Van Patten (50:22)

Because it's not just. We're not seeing these things play out solely on the news. There's so many different outlets and conversation. I think it would be more of a conversation.

Monica Lewinsky (50:34)

Yeah, that's. That's a really interesting point. I agree with. I think everything you've said. I wonder too. I think there could have been the benefits of social media for exactly what you're just saying and some detriments. Right. But I also think it might allow people to be seen in context more because there's almost more, you know, like I think about until the tapes came out or the Star report came out and my emails and all sorts of. It was like my yearbook, you know, my senior yearbook collage page. That defined me. Right. Or whatever. People sort of would do these blue. We called them blue dot interviews that. It was like they'd go on TV and give an interview on, you know, I can't even remember now, some of the like terrible gossipy entertainment shows, you know, and they'd have a blue dot to. To hide there, to stay anonymous. And so it was just. You were just not defined in the same way and understood in the same way. And I, I also, I think it would definitely be different. They would be. This. Scandals would be shorter. I don't think the attention span would be there. The appetite would be there for such a big thing. And then I also feel too, you know, I don't know if the situation, like if we. In my case, I think that if it were still a young, charismatic Democratic president. I don't know. I don't know exactly how different it would be. I think it would be different and I think there would be a lot more voices of support. I don't think you would see. There was a roundtable of women who were interviewed in the observer, which I don't even think exists anymore. Early on that just said awful thing after awful thing. And I don't think even any of those women, including Erika Jeong White, thought that they were even thought about what they were saying about me as a woman. I think to them it was. I was there. There's the good and right kind of woman. And I was not that. So I. I almost didn't matter in that way. So I don't think you would have something like that anymore. You might have comments like that from people, but I think it. It would be different.

Grace Van Patten (52:55)

That behavior wouldn't be as front and center.

Monica Lewinsky (52:59)

Right. Agree.

Grace Van Patten (53:00)

In the sidelines, in the comments, and, you know, people being.

Monica Lewinsky (53:04)

And I think, too, we, you know, abuse of power was like, in 1998, abuse of power was really only thought of in a. In a professional setting, like when it came to the White House. I think abuse of power, people thought about Watergate, you know, or someone acting, you know, espionage or anything. Yes.

Grace Van Patten (53:23)

Illegal.

Monica Lewinsky (53:24)

Right. And so I think this idea of understanding abuse of power in a relationship, abuse of power in a relational situation in. In the workplace.

Grace Van Patten (53:34)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (53:34)

Was just. That was not. That was really not there.

Grace Van Patten (53:39)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (53:39)

It's not there. We didn't have the language for it. We didn't have the understanding for it. So I. I do think those things, you know, would be different. But, yeah, part of the storytelling I like to do, you know, both with impeachment or. I EP'd a documentary called 15 Minutes of Shame. I was just talking about last night because now Cancel Culture has sort of been back, you know, in the zeitgeist, and that's. That's what the doc was on. And also with why I was interested in Twisted Tail and Amanda's story was how do we take these things that happen that are. That are unimaginable to survive, that people somehow survive, and how do we try to lessen the intensity or the likelihood that it happens to someone else, you know, again? And that felt important, but with both, with Amanda as a young person, and I think. I don't know how you felt about this with the show, but really exciting to me in a way of awakening people to certain things that happen in the. In the justice system and this. Right. And this idea of, oh, coercing confessions exist. That's the thing. There's a method. Right, right. And. And people who watch this show may be sitting on a jury one day, and it may make them reevaluate something or look at something a little more critically.

Grace Van Patten (54:59)

That's very true.

Monica Lewinsky (55:00)

You know, and. And that the. The ripple effect of that is really interesting to me, you know.

Grace Van Patten (55:05)

Yeah. Because there's also. I guess I'm thinking of this now because I. I assume the audience, because this was such a national story, that majority of the audience are going in with the preconceived, oh, she's innocent. Oh, she's guilty. But I didn't think about all the people younger than me who have no idea who she is. Going in with a completely open mind and can only be taught about, you know, they're not going in with the bias. They're going in, like, with every step of the way being, like. And probably paying more attention to detail as opposed to somebody who's already kind of.

Monica Lewinsky (55:46)

Well, it was. I mean, that's in many ways, I think, what happened for me with the younger generations when I stepped back out publicly in 2014 and wrote a first person essay. And it was the younger generations kind of coming to my story with just the facts, ma'. Am. You know, it was like, wait, what?

Grace Van Patten (56:09)

Right.

Monica Lewinsky (56:09)

You know, the youngest. The youngest, least powerful person suffered the worst consequences. Like, that doesn't.

Grace Van Patten (56:17)

Yeah, yeah. They couldn't fathom.

Monica Lewinsky (56:19)

Right. And so they forced the older generations to reevaluate my story. Your generation and younger. So, you know, I'm very grateful to all of you for that. So it's. It's interesting. So we kind of touched on it a little. But the last question I ask everybody is if there's anything you are currently working on, reclaiming could be a place, a part of your identity, anything.

Grace Van Patten (56:47)

I feel like now I'm repeating myself, but it is really true that I am always on a mission to reclaim my inner child. I really decided or realized that it was a part of myself that I want to keep forever and always reintroduced to myself when my. When my little sister was born and I was 15. And like, watching her grow up at an age where I was just old enough to realize that that's a baby, and I had fear for. I never had, like, a motherly instinct for a child before, obviously. And watching her, like, experience Christmas for the first time or, like, events or losing her first tooth or whatever. When I had been at an age where I was so over that I was, like, getting over those things and Christmas was, like, less magical to me. And seeing how magic life was to her really inspired me through life through acting, being so inspired by her unself consciousness and, like, trust. Like trust for people, which I've had a hard time with. So I think, yeah, just reclaiming that part of myself and reminding myself to, like, tap into that as much as I can.

Monica Lewinsky (58:22)

Where do you think the trust broken, trust issues.

Grace Van Patten (58:27)

It's really interesting because it's. I, like, I've been trying to figure this out because nothing terrible happened to me that I was like, I can't trust anybody again. I think it was like, that was more in high school when I think it was because I was very fearful of my emotions because I knew I had very big ones. And until I started acting and going to therapy and had been in serious relationships that forced me to, like, communicate scary. But it really was until then that I allowed myself to feel everything. And I think that guard probably comes from a time in my life where I was protecting myself. It was out of self protection, not like not protecting myself from other people, but protecting myself from myself and my own emotions and acting really helped me with that. And so I think that's probably where it comes from and being when I feel the most like my inner child, I just feel the most happy, the most happy, the most inspired, the most creative, the most confident.

Monica Lewinsky (59:46)

That's wonderful.

Grace Van Patten (59:47)

Yeah.

Monica Lewinsky (59:48)

Thank you so much. This was so wonderful. I love that.

Grace Van Patten (59:53)

It was so fun.

Monica Lewinsky (59:54)

Okay, good. Did it feel like when we're at the bungalows. Exactly.

Grace Van Patten (59:58)

Eating zucchini chips?

Monica Lewinsky (60:00)

Exactly. I know. We will. I owe you zucchini chips. Okay. How's that? Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development of producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.