Harlan Coben

Summary

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky – Harlan Coben

Date: December 30, 2025
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Guest: Harlan Coben

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Overview

In this heartfelt, candid conversation, Monica Lewinsky sits down with bestselling author Harlan Coben to discuss his prolific writing career, the process of collaboration (especially with Reese Witherspoon), infusing thrillers with emotional depth, the impact of grief and family legacy on his work, and the path to “reclaiming” personal meaning through creativity and mentorship. The episode blends humor and warmth with deep, sometimes poignant explorations of loss, creative insecurity, and finding fulfillment in helping others succeed.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins and Process of Harlan’s Writing Career

• Early Inspiration:
  • Harlan never set out to be a writer, considering himself first a basketball player.
  • His father gave him Marathon Man by William Goldman at 16, which opened the door to thrilling adult fiction ([08:07]).
  • William Goldman later became a mentor and friend, known for his jaded advice about Hollywood: “Nobody knows anything.” ([09:21])
• Path to Prolific Output:
  • Harlan has authored 36–37 books (he’s lost count), mostly thrillers, over approximately one a year.
  • On his productivity:

    “All I do is sit around and make stuff up... There’s three things that make a writer: inspiration, perspiration, and desperation.” ([06:23])

2. Collaboration with Reese Witherspoon

• Monica marvels at Harlan’s successful collaboration with Reese on Gone Before Goodbye. Harlan admits skepticism about co-writing novels, as it’s normally a solitary process ([03:02]).
• The Collaboration Experience:
  • Initially hesitant, Harlan was won over by Reese’s book idea after a passionate brainstorming session ([03:53]).
  • Both felt pressure as public figures—“pressure is a privilege, as Billie Jean King says”—but committed to doing real, serious work ([05:16]).
  • Reese’s signature move: Just signs “Reese.” Harlan jokes, “I figured, what the hell, Harlan. Why not shorter, easier.” ([02:42]).

3. Emotional Depth in Thrillers

• Harlan pushes back on the notion that thrillers are just “mechanical puzzles”:

  “The twists and turns don’t work if there’s not an emotional component. You could have the twistiest plot in the world, but if you don’t care about that lead character, it’s not going to matter.... I can stir your mind, I can stir your pulse, but if I don’t stir your heart, it’s just not going to work.” ([13:44])

• Example:
  • In Tell No One, the central draw is a man mourning his wife, not just plot twists.

4. Mining Real Life for Fiction

• The character Myron Bolitar is loosely based on Harlan and his college roommate; Myron’s relationship with his parents is inspired by Harlan’s own loss and longing ([16:21]).
• Writing about parents in fiction serves as both therapy and a way to keep them alive:

  “It actually sort of in a way keeps them alive... it makes the book better.” ([20:50])

5. Grief, Family Legacy & Recurring Dreams

• Monica and Harlan share their experiences of grieving lost parents and family members.
• Harlan’s essay “The Key to My Father” recounts his late father’s final concern for the family’s comfort; Harlan still keeps his dad’s hotel key ([17:53]).
• On dealing with loss:

  “I look at grief sort of as... you know, it’s like losing a limb. You may still have a great, happy life and you learn to compensate, but that arm’s not growing back. And I think grief is similar to that.” ([36:23])

• Recurring dream: Telling his father, worried about money, that everything is okay—“and there’s always that part where I’m so happy my dad’s alive, and there’s the part when I realize I’m waking up and he’s not going to be here, he’s going to be dead again.” ([53:59])

6. Creative Process: Battling Insecurity and Writer's Block

• Harlan emphasizes finishing a “shitty first draft,” drawing on Anne Lamott’s wisdom ([11:59]).
• Imposter syndrome is universal—even for bestselling authors:

  “We all think we suck. We all have imposter syndrome… The difference is I try to make that part of me that’s insecure fuel the writing rather than paralyze me.” ([12:46])

• Describes “diamond mining” as a metaphor: first drafts are like unrefined rocks—ugly, but valuable ([12:46]).

7. Bringing Books to Screen—Adaptation and Control

• Harlan describes mixed experiences in Hollywood:
  • Tell No One was originally Americanized by a studio, missing the emotional core.
  • He gave rights to French director Guillaume Canet, resulting in an acclaimed film because the story stayed “honest to the emotion" ([47:18]).
• Prefers working on adaptations primarily overseas for creative freedom ([49:59]).
• Enjoys collaboration in TV production as much as solitary writing; finds fulfillment in mentoring younger creatives ([64:04]).

8. Writing as Obsession and Balance

• Writing is Harlan’s primary vocation and hobby—“my life is a creative hobby” ([27:32]).
• Even on vacation, an hour of writing keeps him “in balance,” much like meditation or exercise for others ([28:39]).
• On daily discipline: "The only thing worse than writing is not writing." ([30:42])

9. Parenthood, Family, & Working with His Daughter

• Harlan has four grown children; he collaborates with his daughter Charlotte on TV adaptations (as with Runaway, inspired by her) ([24:37]).
• Monica notes the privilege and challenges of working creatively with one’s own family.

10. On Reclaiming, Redemption, and Legacy

• Harlan’s books center on missing people, not just as a plot device, but because “if somebody’s missing, you could be made whole. You can have full redemption. You could make it all sort of go away.” ([63:37])
• At this stage, Harlan focuses on helping others—actors, writers, production staff—grow and succeed:

  "I do want to help the people that I work with and love that are close to me get to that next step—that for me is... probably the closest I come to reclaiming something.” ([65:20])

• He describes joy in other people’s victories as a key source of present-day fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On collaboration with Reese Witherspoon:

  “Life’s about pushing and experimenting. So that was a good example of it.” ([03:53])
  “Pressure is a privilege.” – Billie Jean King, cited by Harlan ([05:16])

• On Writing:

  “Outlining is not writing. Thinking of ideas is not writing. Reading is not writing... Only writing is writing... There’s three things that make a writer: inspiration, perspiration, and desperation.” ([06:23])

• On first drafts:

  “Just throw it up... The hardest part of writing is… we all think we suck... Just get that valuable rock out of the ground—that’s your first draft.” ([12:46])

• On emotional truth in thrillers:

  “You can have the most expensive car in the world. If you don’t have fuel in it, it’s not going anyplace. So the heart and soul... If I don’t stir your heart, it’s just not going to work.” ([13:44])

• On grief and longing:

  “It sucks for all of us when we lose somebody we love. And that’s… grief is like losing a limb. That arm’s not growing back.” ([36:23])

• On legacy:

  “My parents have never seen any of my success, unfortunately. It's one of the tortures of my life...” ([52:24])

• On reclaiming via mentorship:

  “If their career is here, I want their career when they’re done with what I’m doing, to be here… I really want to help the people I work with and love get to that next step. That for me is probably the closest I come to reclaiming something.” ([64:04])

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Important Timestamps

• Book signing & collaboration with Reese: [01:45]–[05:16]
• The writing process & inspiration: [06:23]–[08:07]
• On William Goldman & emotional backbone in fiction: [08:07]–[15:17]
• Using real life in fiction & grief integration: [16:21]–[21:32]
• Impact of loss, the hotel key story: [17:45]–[19:11]
• Working with family (daughter Charlotte), TV adaptations: [24:37]–[27:28]
• Writing as obsession & discipline: [27:32]–[30:42]
• On imposter syndrome and self-doubt in writing: [11:59], [31:40]–[32:54]
• Hollywood and maintaining creative control: [47:18]–[49:59]
• Mentorship, legacy, and reclaiming: [63:37]–[66:00]

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, witty, and deeply self-aware, oscillating between good-natured banter and emotionally raw, vulnerable reflections. Monica's curiosity and empathy guide the discussion, while Harlan responds with candor and humor—willing to probe his own insecurities and the enduring impact of family loss, even as he jokes about the absurdities of publishing and collaborating with celebrities.

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Conclusion

This episode of Reclaiming offers far more than a behind-the-scenes look at a famous writer’s process. It’s an exploration of grief, legacy, creative drive, and the contortions of self-belief—how we lose, and how we reclaim, the most meaningful parts of ourselves. Harlan’s willingness to share both the laughter and the heartbreak behind the writing—and Monica’s intelligence and warmth—make for a rich, moving conversation for writers and readers alike.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

You kept saying, where's my key? Where's my key? Where's my key? And I'm like, who gives a shit what your key is? Just get out. And when I got. And when I spoke to his doctor after he had gone in and he said, oh, his last words was to check his pockets and he had found the key because he wanted us to have a place to stay that night. He didn't want us to not have. So his last thoughts were, I gotta find the hotel key so that the family's coming down. They'll have a place to stay.

[A]

Harlan, I'm so happy to welcome you to Reclaiming.

[B]

Thanks, Monica. It's great to be here with you.

[A]

Yeah. We met not that long ago at a weekend retreat, and I felt like we had an appetizer size of a conversation. And I'm like, yes, now we get to do the main course.

[B]

Perfect.

[A]

And I was pretty blown away by the fact that you have sold 90 million books worldwide.

[B]

That's what they tell me.

[A]

I've actually counted, like, actual Fuck. Like, seriously, 90 million?

[B]

Yeah. No, it's. It's pretty surprising.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know what those numbers actually mean. I don't even know where to get them from.

[A]

But I'm counting now.

[B]

It sounds good. I'm not going to question it. Like, I'm not going to go back and.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Whoa, whoa. Did we count the ones that are in Slovenia? No, we didn't. We did. Or. Okay, okay, we count them twice, maybe. Let's make sure we get it. All right.

[A]

Yeah. But do you have any signing tricks? Do you sign the books a lot?

[B]

I do those book signings. I just did this book tour. Reese Witherspoon for Gone Before Goodbye. And what they do is they send you sheets of paper. So I think in our case, it was something like 7,000 sheets of paper.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And you stacked them and Reese signed and I signed. So first Reece got them, first I got them, then we signed them, and then they stitched them into the book.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's the new way they sort of do it. And then you do. I get a book signing.

[A]

Okay. Oh, interesting. Yeah. I found there's this. I don't know if they still make them. It's a pilot V sign pen. And there's something about the tip that it just doesn't tax your wrist as much.

[B]

Oh, really? Yeah, I just make it big. And I use a Sharpie. And it's great. Cause Reese just signed them first. And Reese just signed Reese.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because she's a name like that, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Fabio or Shay.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

But I figured, what the hell, Harlan? Why not shorter, easier.

[A]

Okay. Now, was this the first time that you had done a collaboration with someone? Okay. And what happened that got you to think? Okay, yes. I'm gonna write this with Rhys. And what was the process like?

[B]

You're opening. I have to open up with a really immodest story. Thanks, Monica. Okay. I always loved when I was able to do this with Reese. Cause Reese would always tell the story. Okay.

[A]

So Reese, you could imitate her.

[B]

So. Yeah, it wouldn't be a good one. Rhys actually called me and said, I have an idea for a book I want to run by you. And I was very hesitant as writers who do that. I'm not that guy. I collaborate on tv, but novel is a really solitary exercise. I don't like when people collaborate. I don't like the celebrity. I don't like anything about it. So I was also. Reese came to my apartment in New York, and I was sort of like, how do I tell Reese Witherspoon kind of don't want to do this? And then she tells me the idea, and I'm like, oh, damn, this is pretty good. I take out a legal pen, and we start going back and forth. I'm like, suppose this. And she suppose that. Spent about three hours.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Doing this. At the end, Reese looks at me and goes, so, are we gonna do this? And I'm like, yeah, let's give it a try. So, you know, life's about pushing and experimenting. So that was a good example of it.

[A]

Yeah, it's so. I mean, she's just. She's such a powerhouse in terms of, I think, her ability to have an idea or a passion and just give it a go, which I really admire. And she has built an extraordinary. An extraordinary company on that. I'm hop she'll come and chat.

[B]

She's a day.

[A]

Yeah. And did you find that you had. Did you learn things about yourself in the process? Like, are there sort of. Were there, Harlan lines that you would not cross, you know?

[B]

Well, I thought, well, whenever I do one of those nevers, I end up doing it. So I was like, I'm never going to be that guy who collaborates. And then I was so I've learned never to Say never. First of all, I like the idea still at this stage in my career to keep pushing, keep trying to do new things, get yourself out of your comfort zone. I think it's very healthy creatively. I think it was good for both Reese and me. It's weird. We were both sort of terrified.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because, you know, Reese had never written a book before. It was gonna be really easy for people to take potshots at these two people writing a book together. So I was nervous, and Reese was even more nervous, in a sense. And I said to her, from day one, no one else is going to be in a room. We're not doing one of those. We're slapping our names on a book.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And she was the same. We took it very, very seriously. And so when the book first came out, now it's been out for a while, and it's really gotten very, really nice reception. You know, not so much, but during it, it was. You know, we're taking a little bit of a risk. And I kind of like that. I like that. You know, Billie Jean King has my. One of my favorite quotes. You know, pressure is a privilege. Wow. Pressure is a privilege.

[A]

Yeah. That is so true. I've got to remember that. Yeah. Pressure is a privilege. That's great. She's amazing.

[B]

Yes. I think it's actually written now in the U.S. open building. Center at the U.S. open.

[A]

I sat next to her wife at a dinner and just was so intrigued. She was lovely. But, I mean, you've now written 35 books, right?

[B]

I think it might be 36 or 37. I lose count.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One's a kid book, so whatever.

[A]

It's kind of like book a year, in a way. How are you so prolific? What drives you to just kind of churn out story?

[B]

First of all, it's all I do. I mean, I can't express this enough that most of you who are watching or listening to us right now have real jobs. You have to wake up in the morning and you have to go to an office, and you have to do whatever it is you do all day. All I do is sit around and make stuff up. They asked George Carlin, the great comic, what he does for a living, and he said, I make shit up. That's all I do. That's my only marketable skill. And I say there's three things that make a writer. Two are obvious, and one isn't so obvious. So the two that are obvious are inspiration. Well, you have to have an idea and really want to do it. And Two is perspiration, which people overlook, and that is actually writing. Outlining is not writing. Thinking of ideas is not writing. Reading is not writing. Hanging with your friends at Starbucks isn't writing. Having a club is not writing. None of that's writing. Only writing is writing only. Actually sitting in a. Getting your butt in a chair, producing words on a page or a screen counts as writing. Everything else flots them and jetsam. Okay, so we have inspiration and a perspiration. And the third and most important is desperation, and that is I'm not fit to do anything else, like hold a real job. And that fear that if I stop doing this, what am I? What do I do? Where do I go? That one of the things that drives me to continue doing it.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's really interesting. And you were. I think you were around 20 when you started writing, is that correct?

[B]

But 21.

[A]

Yeah, 21. But your dad had given you William Goldman's the Marathon man, right. When you were 16, I think. And so what was your experience with that that then kind of led to writing opening up as a world for you? Like, what did you get out of writing that experience?

[B]

I mean, I just. First of all, I just never thought I would be a writer. I. I grew up. I was. I was a basketball player, for the most part, known as a basketball player. In high school, I made Amherst College. I did. I had good grades, but I made it because I was recruited as a basketball player. And just, you know, I told myself a lot of stories, but I never really imagined I would be a writer. But I remember when my father gave me William Goldman's Marathon man to read. And it's similar experience when you're younger. And I read Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine Lingell or C.S. lewis, but that was the first adult thriller where I sat there reading it, going, you could put a gun to my head and I wouldn't want to put this book down. And how cool it must be that William Goleman, who I got to be friends with later on.

[A]

Oh, you did? I was going to ask you. Yeah.

[B]

And he always was like, why do you always mention marathon? He's goofing on me about it a little bit, but how lucky that would be to make people feel that way. And so that's always sort of, I think, subconsciously became something of a goal.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. And so did. Now, was he. Would he have been like a mentor?

[B]

I would say a little bit. I mean, he was a grumpy old dude. And he wrote all these wonderful books on how awful Hollywood is. He's known for the quote, nobody knows anything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And he's hilarious. And he would give me advice, always something really negative whenever I would start moving into the Hollywood. Hollywood world. And so we met, you know, he. Yes, we had a great relationship. I miss him. Great. He was so wonderful. He was so funny. He lived on the top floor of the Hotel Carlisle.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

In a spectacular apartment. Oh, my gosh. That used to be part of Henry Luce booths many years ago. Spectacular. And he said, as soon as you can get a spectacular apartment and always have your Hollywood meetings there. I was like, why? He goes, because I always want to show him, I don't need your fucking money. Which is an interesting.

[A]

Yeah, that was Bill, right? That's the. Well, you know, that's. I mean, that's kind of the definition of fuck you money, right? I mean, isn't that the whole.

[B]

Those who don't know. He wrote Butch Casting, the Sun.

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

All the President's Men. He did the screenplay for Misery. And he has a book called the Adventures in the Screen Trade, where he breaks down every movie that he's done and he tells the real story of it, how horrifying people were on set. He tells all the stories, and they're still hold up today, so I would definitely get it or something. Well, I think he.

[A]

I mean, it's interesting, not just his storytelling, but I think he was sort of one of those people who had such a sharp eye for observation, you know, and that's really what he was capturing, both in how he told stories and in these reflective books of that time. So, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, did you ever, like, have you in the process of all these. 35, 36. However, we're gonna number it, right? Nearly 40. Nearly 40 books. Have you ever sort of had an idea and you just thought to yourself, whoa, buddy, that's like, too fucked up almost every day. Oh, really? Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I have. For every idea that ends up becoming a book, there's dozens, if not hundreds, that get rejected inside my head. A lot of times I will write them down and maybe look at them later. And some of them are just, you know, oh, that's too far. Also, though, it's not a bad way of trying to think sometimes to go too far when you're. When you're trying to think of a story, and then you go, wait, no, but let's pull back a little bit on that. You want to try to do something surprising and outrageous. And then you can always dial it back if you want to. So oftentimes I try to let my mind go as far as it can and then pull back on it.

[A]

Interesting. Yeah, it's. It is. I mean, I write a very little bit, and I. I think you have given Anne Lamott a shout out before, who's actually on the podcast very early. She's extraordinary and about the sort of shitty first drafts, and I struggle even trying to get a shitty first draft.

[B]

So that's so key, though. Like, just throw it up. I mean, just get it out. It's the hardest part of writing, is there's a part of, look, we all think we suck. We all have imposter syndrome. I can tell you. Sort of Stephen King having imposter syndrome, really. But we all have. The difference is I try to make that part of me that's insecure. Fuel the writing rather than paralyze me. So just throw it up. No one cares. No one's gonna see it. You're going to fix it later. I compare it to diamond mining. Not something I'm an expert in, but if you've ever seen a movie, whatever else. When you diamond mine, they take this really ugly rock out of the ground, right? And then you. And that's the first draft. That's what. That's. But that's the valuable part. It's ugly, it's gross. No one's going to want to wear that. But that's the. Getting that part out of the ground. Now, the second, third, fourth draft, you can shine it up into something you want to wear, something that's beautiful. But get that rock. No matter what, you got to get that valuable rock out of the ground. That's your first draft.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah, it's. I still struggle with it.

[B]

Of course you do.

[A]

I'm going to text you now. Be like, harlan, tell me again.

[B]

I mean.

[A]

But I'm not a writer writer. I write short pieces. And so. But it's interesting. I mean, I was reading about how you've sort of, kind of pushed back on this idea of thrillers being mechanical puzzles. I think that might have been the phrase you used, which I was very drawn to, and that really wanting to kind of reclaim this idea of the stories having emotional centers for you. How did you, like. How did you sort of find that nugget, in a way?

[B]

I just don't think it works. I mean, you could have the. I am known for my twists and turns and my plot twists and all of that. And I Know, I have a lot of them and I've been criticized sometimes for twisting too much, which is a absolutely fair criticism. If you want a straight ahead narrative, I'm not your guy. If you want to be fooled several times over, then I'm your guy. But the twists and turns don't work if there's not an emotional component. You could have the twistiest plot in the world, but if you don't care about that lead character, it's not going to matter. You can have the most expensive car in the world. If you don't have fuel in it, it's not going anyplace. So the heart and soul. I can stir your mind, I can stir your pulse, but if I don't stir your heart, it's just not going to work. You're not going to want to follow this character through hell and back if you don't care about that character. If there's not a sort of center, an emotional center. If there's not. My breakout book was a book called Tell no One, which really is a love story. It's not so much a thriller. It's about a man who loses his wife. She's dead and she gets murdered and he can't move on with his life. Eight years pass, he still can't move on. He gets an email, he clicks a hyperlink, he sees a webcam and his dead wife walks by. Right. You're in. Right. Wow, that's emotional.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't wait till you see him with her. Yes. You want to know the twists and turns of how that could possibly be. And that's part of what I do. But if you don't care that he's going to maybe one day see the wife that he couldn't get over again, then everything else I've done is not going to work.

[A]

Right. Yeah. And do you like there's, I think in the Myron Bolataar. Did I say that right?

[B]

Yes. Myron Bolatar. I just made up the words. So you can say it any way you want.

[A]

I know, but you know, it's that thing of. I think it was not until I listened to the first time I lived in LA in the last 20 years, whatever. And I was listening to NPR all the time because you're in the car. And that was how I would learn how to say, you know, it's like, oh, okay, that's the Uyghurs, you know, and you just sort of. I'm like, that's not anywhere how it's spelled, you know, or that was How I learned it's Ayn Rand, not Ayn Rand. So on those things. But now I know that in that series, right there is. You've got the two guys, one of whom is sort of Myron, loosely based on you. Right. And Win, his best friend, loosely based on your college roommate. Right. So what is that like for you in terms of bringing that. Is that, like, where you find your inspiration in all of these books? Is there a nugget of your real life kind of experience that way?

[B]

Always. I sort of used to deny this. I used to sort of say, oh, I make it up. What do I know about murder and mayhem? And it'd be a cute thing to say, but as I've gotten older, I realized that almost every book is a memoir in some way. And when I created Myron Boletar, who's, you know, kind of a sports agent detective, he starts, right, becomes an agent, not a sports agent, but he sort of solves crimes and he's a wise cracking detective in that thing. But I. I wanted to make him something different. So one of the things is this friendship with Wynn. The books are really about their friendship. The other thing I probably did even more so is in all these detective series, the detective was. Always. Has no relationship with his parents or was abused by his parents or whatever else. I lost my parents at a young age. And so I give Myron my parents. And the relationship that Myron has with his parents are what I imagine I would be having with my parents had they survived. So Myron's parents get to age and change and all of that. And when I write those scenes, I know I get too emotional or melodramatic. Fine, skip them. That's my therapy. But I also think that's what makes the books different. I'm hoping that's what gives the book the heart that we were talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I read a beautiful essay that you wrote, I think published in The Times about 20 years ago, about the story of how you lost your dad. And I choked up so much about the. The room key. The hotel key in his pocket.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you just give a little hint? You know, this part that moved me so much in this story about your dad and the hotel key.

[B]

So I'm going to start tearing up again. When my dad had had this heart attack, he was in Tampa, Florida. We were in New Jersey, and he was staying in a hotel. And I spoke to him on the phone beforehand. He was kind of. My dad was one of those fathers who would say, oh, it's not A big deal. I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine. But when I said, dad, I called the hospital and they're coming to get you. The scariest thing to me is when he said, okay. And then he said, but, you know, he kept saying, where's my key? Where's my key? Where's my key? And I'm like, gives a shit where your key is? Just get out. And when I got. And when I spoke to his doctor after he had gone in and he said, oh, his last words was to check his pockets and he had found the key because he wanted us to have a place to stay that night. He didn't want us to not have. So his last thoughts were, I gotta find the hotel key so that if the family's coming down, they'll have a place to stay. And the last thing he said to the guy before he went under the knife was, tell them it's in my. My pant pocket, my. My hotel key. And after he died, you know, we were there all night or whatever else. And then they hand me the bag with his belongings, and I'm hugging it like this, and I go into the pocket and I pulled out the key. I still have that key. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, you still have it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

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[B]

It's really an interesting question. I think it's twofold. One, I mean, I think the, the obvious, you know, there's therapy there, right There is getting. Speaking it out. Number two, it actually sort of in a way keeps them alive. And number three, to be coldly. To be cold about it, it makes the book better. I mean, I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the, the. There's not. It's never a silver lining. But my parents deaths and I had a lot of deaths when I was younger, thank goodness. Not more recently. But I think before I was 30 I'd done seven eulogies.

[A]

Oh my gosh. I mean that's obviously reflective of very close people. If you were. Oh my gosh.

[B]

Yeah, so it was a lot. But I don't think I've done maybe done one since. Thank goodness.

[A]

Okay. Touch.

[B]

So nudge all kinds of things. But it definitely. It makes you a better writer and you learn a lot about grief. And since people die in my books and are often murdered, it's never just like a puzzle when you were talking about. Four, it has to be something emotional, somebody. It has to matter that the person has died or is in trouble or. In my case, I mostly deal with missing people. Has to matter.

[A]

Yeah, no, it's. So it's really interesting. I think there's. I have a quote here that you had said that kind of goes to that about which I thought was so interesting. The violent lives next to the quiet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's a really interesting thing. I mean how has that idea kind of shaped like shaped your Harlan Coban world of all the series or the one offs and those things?

[B]

Well, first of all, you can't have a left without a right. You can't have an up without a down. You can't have good without evil. And I can't write about dark without having light. I have to have humor in all of the books. And also in terms of writing, Flaubert has a quote. I'll try to get this right. It's. Be original and regular in your real life so you can be violent and original your work. So the more I can be sort of passive and quiet in my real life, the more I can. I think I can spread out and be violent. Original in the work.

[A]

Yeah. Does it, does it ever scare your. Your wife Anne, whom I met also that weekend, who's lovely. Or, or your kids in terms of.

[B]

I don't think so. They're. They're sort of used to me by now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I don't think. I mean, I think in a way. And I'm not like a scared guy. I don't worry about all those things maybe because I get it put it all to you. I put it all out on the page. So I'm not like, I was never a helicopter parent or any of that sort of a thing. But no, I don't think every once in a while someone will say, you know, dad's pretty messed up or whatever else. But the kids normally laugh at home. It's very normal and things like that. Four kids, so. Yeah, it's a lot.

[A]

Oh, four, okay. What's the age range?

[B]

Well, now, you know, they're grown now. The oldest is 31. The youngest is 24.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And now you're working with your daughter Charlotte. Right. So you've turned a number of your books into TV projects.

[B]

TV series, yeah.

[A]

Right, exactly. But then also, I think, isn't there also original series is Runaway that's coming out on Netflix in January. Is that an original series or is that from a book?

[B]

Runaway, which comes out on January 1st on Netflix, is based off a novel starring James Nesbit, Mindy Driver, Ruth Jones and Alfred Enoch. And the one I just came out in October was called Lazarus on Amazon prime that was based off an original idea. So you had both within a two or three month thing, most of the TV series. And I think I have. I think this will be my 11th on Netflix and then I have a couple elsewhere. I think maybe eight or nine of them are based. Most of them are based off novels. Adaptations.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. But now your daughter Charlotte, right. Has started. Now, is she working with you or.

[B]

She's both. She had her own series called Dead Hot, which is on Amazon prime in the UK and on Tubi here in the US and then when I can get her to. And she's not too difficult, she writes episodes. She wrote two of the episodes for Runaway, for example.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But in part because she was the inspiration for it as well.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the. Can you tell us just a little.

[B]

So the story is about. So after a party at our house and I came home, I found some cannabis paraphernalia around the house. This is many years ago. And like a father, I freaked out. Even though sort of wouldn't freak out now. Probably do more than she does. But my mind spiraled. Well, what if? What if? And I started to think, what if I want to start a story about a father whose daughter's disappeared for six months in sort of darkness, despair, and a drug haze.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was sitting in Central park on a bench, and I'm thinking, how do I start this book? And somebody at busker starts playing a John Lennon tune. And I'm sitting there going, what right now? I looked up and I looked over, and there was my daughter playing that song. The daughter had been missing six months.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And that's how the TV series opens up. Shimmy has been sitting on a park bench. He looks up and he sees his daughter's been missing six months. And when he tries to get her back, his entire world explodes. That's the teaser for Runaway.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. No, it's. You're gonna have to send me early screeners.

[B]

Be happy to.

[A]

I mean, that's such a nice. It must be such a nice opportunity to kind of get to both see or, you know, most people get. Hopefully get to see their children sort of grow up and find their place, but to watch them grow up and move into the storytelling as you're doing and to see sides of them. I imagine you see sides of her that you probably don't get to see at home. Or. I mean, maybe I'm imagining. No, I think you're right.

[B]

She's too much like me, which is too bad for her, in a sense that we're very much alike. Okay. But it's funny, I didn't want to work with her. My partner, a woman named Nicholas Schindler, who over in England was the one who first hired her, saying, we need. We need her. We need that youthful voice. And I kept completely away from her for a very long time on it. But she has become. I've probably worked with, you know, 30 or 40 writers, and I would say, other than. Than one other. She's my. My most valuable asset. And so. And I hope she's not listening to this. Should take full advantage of that.

[A]

You know that I am gonna, like, tag her in the. In the clip of this part.

[B]

Charlotte will definitely. Yes. She's not anyway, but she's. You know, she's genuinely really good at it. But. But she wants to do her own things anyway also. So half the time she does, and half the time she doesn't. Then she just got married, so she's paying attention to that and enjoying life. She's better about enjoying life than I am. I have to keep working. She doesn't.

[A]

Yeah. What are you afraid would happen if you stopped working?

[B]

I don't think I have anything else. I think also Part of being a writer is, for me, anyway, it's everything. Because a lot of people who are listening right now, they have creative hobbies. Right. They paint or they sculpt or they do. But my life is a creative hobby, so why would I, you know?

[A]

Right, right. Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Hobbies. I don't collect things. I don't. I don't really do it. And part of it is I don't do anything else other than write. And so, you know, I raised my family and things like that, but I golf a little bit, but, you know, that's the dumb hobby. And I should have just broken a glass and jammed it in my eye, but instead of took up golf. So I think that obsession and that passion, you know, the other thing is life is about balance. And you talk about this a lot on your podcast and people. But so with my life, you know, what are we talking about? Like, you know, how you eat, how you exercise, your relationship with a partner, relationship with friends, relationship with families. Those for me, could all be great and in balance. But if I'm also not writing well, I know that's all. I'm going to lose that balance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. Even when I go on vacation, I like to wake up early and write for just one hour, just so I keep my own. It's like some people meditate or some people use exercise. This. I'm out of balance if I'm also not writing. And I've purposely kept it that way so I continue to write.

[A]

Right. Well, no, it's interesting. I knew Norman Mailer a little bit, and I remember him, he was saying to me that your psyche prepares for writing. And so if you tell your psyche that you're gonna write tomorrow or you're Gonna write at 9am Tomorrow, if you don't deliver in giving your psyche the opportunity to do that, you're like fucking with your system, basically. I mean, he didn't use those words.

[B]

Yeah, that's so good.

[A]

But I thought it was really interesting in that way. And I have friends who were writers and more screen and television. And one of them, I know that his whole world is around whether or not he's writing well or not and, you know, can be a real beast.

[B]

Yep. It actually. Part of it is that I think that's probably how I naturally am. But part of it is I encourage it because I want to be productive. As you mentioned, it's hard to get started writing. I mean, there's times I'll be sitting at home going, you look for any excuse Right. You're sitting in your desk, and you're looking at that blank screen, and I know people who are listening understand exactly what I'm talking about. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna write, but first, let's put wood paneling in the basement. Yeah, the basement needs wood paneling. You'll find any exception.

[A]

Excuse, right.

[B]

Not to write. Yeah, I experienced that. It's not like even though I've written 30. Whatever books, I still experience that all the time, pretty much. It's just. The difference is, is that I still manage to get through it. I still manage to fight through those voices. I still think I suck all the time. You know, those things never go away.

[A]

Okay, what do you say? Like, if this doesn't feel too prescriptive, what do you say to that voice? You're sitting there, your inner voice is saying, this is shit, or I'm shit, or whatever it is. How do you get yourself back on track?

[B]

The only way to. The only thing worse than writing is not writing. The only thing worse than writing is not writing. We were talking about Reese in the book I did with Reese. So Reese got a little taste of how insecure I sometimes get. So we're writing. I'm doing most of the actual first sort of. I would do part, and then I would send it to her. And at some point, we realized that the deadline was getting closer. And I said to Reese, I go, reese, sorry, I'm not gonna finish it in time. We're just not gonna get there in time. And the publisher lost its mind, you know, was getting angry, and Reese was feeling bad. So Reese was calling up my publisher, and she calls my agent, and she says, you have to leave Harlan alone. You can't be putting all this pressure on Harlan. And my agent just goes to her at Reese. He does this every day. He'll be done way on time. And sure enough, two weeks later, he was completely done. So my wife, my people, people know me. They know, but I didn't even know that story. Reese told it while we were on tour.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

It's very much me. I'm always. You know, I'll be writing a book. Like, I'll be writing a book, and I'll go, oh, my God, this is such crap. Yeah, I was so good before. What happened to me five minutes later? This is genius.

[A]

Yeah, that's crap that goes on all.

[B]

Doesn't go on through podcasts, too. Were you loved one? I'm getting better. I'm getting worse.

[A]

I think I. I definitely had an experience. I mean, I have that experience whenever I write small articles. Like, my mom is usually the first. Before I send it to my editor, I send it to my mom of like, am I crazy? Is this a piece of shit? And sometimes she's like, I don't know what you're even trying to say here. And sometimes she'll say, okay, this was interesting to me. Or you know, no, keep going, or whatever that is. I'm curious about something which. And if in any way this feels too personal, just say so. But what's coming up for me is I'm thinking about how so. My dad's a doctor, he retired last year. And as a kid I could never understand like why he'd come home from work and there'd be a heaviness around him. Right. So I didn't get that. He probably had to tell someone they have six months to live, you know, or some version or all the things he would have seen that day. How, like, how were you. Because writing is such a solitary process. So what was it like for you to transition? Like, were you able to transition in your home life and with your kids growing up and Ann and into sort of this coming out of that world that you're living in and creating does that.

[B]

Yeah. No. I mean, first of all, I think in my case it's just what I am and my kids kind of get it. Like there's times I'm rude, I'll be sitting there at the table and my eyes will drift off and. And my friends and family kind of got to know, oh, Harlan's just kind of going off and it tolerated. And the other thing is you kind of have to fight for your time. And there were times that I just was going to be in that room and working and the kids kind of knew that. I write a lot out of the house too, so it was just sort of what I was as a dad. On the other hand, I was home a lot more than most. I wasn't gone nine to six.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I was more the stay at home dad.

[A]

I know you've. You've spoken about losing your parents young. And I have a friend who was interesting for me to see. He lost his dad when the dad was young and he was young. And I've sort of like this theme of before and after kind of emerging. And I thought that, that before and after would be more a sense of like before his dad passed and after his dad passed. But it actually ended up being. Cause he's in his 60s now that it actually ended up being this thing of the before was before he got to the age his dad was when his dad passed, and the after that he sort of sees as these bonus years. Is that anything that you've experienced that's interesting.

[B]

Yeah. But again, my dad wasn't a kid. He was 59, and my mom was around 60. I say around 60 because she lied about her age constantly. And her final request as she was dying was not to put her birth date on her tombstone.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

We'll respect that and say she was around 60. And I'm older than that. I'm older than both of them at this stage of the game. And yes, especially when I passed my dad at 59, it was a very strange feeling. I don't know if I can. Bonus years because actually, what's both. Which. Both happy. Makes me happy and sad, is these have been the best years of my life. I mean, it's. It actually, for me, it's been getting better as I've gotten older. I know it's going to turn around soon, but right now it's better as I was older. And a lot of the regret for me was what he missed more than even what I missed. Like that he never got to meet his grandchildren and all those sort of things that they do. And he was such a great dad. I know I probably. Everybody always thinks that I romanticize my father and my mother after their deaths, but I don't think so. I mean, I look at him when I became a father, it's almost like I looked at him as a. As a magician and I was an apprentice trying to figure out how he did it, how he was such a great dad, how he pushed without pushing, how he made me know he was proud, but it wasn't a condition to loving me. How all these things that he was able to do as a father and I tried to emulate with my own kids, and so, yeah, that's. It's just. It sucks. You know, another thing, when people have a parent die, it sucks. It's not like you can. You know, it shouldn't really. Well, they lived a good life. They. It just sucks. You know, it sucks for all of us when we lose somebody we love. It just does. And that's. And grief is. I look at grief sort of as. You know, it's like losing a limb. You. You know, you may learn if you lose your arm, you're going to have a great. You may still have a great, happy life and you learn to compensate, but that arm's not growing back Right. And a similar. I think grief is similar to that.

[A]

Yeah. No, I'm lucky. I still have both my parents, so. Although my stepdad passed away about 12 years ago. But it's. I think that's a different connection and loss and feeling like that. It's so funny what you're saying about your mom, because my grandma was. We didn't know when her exact birthday was, and so she just always said it was around Purim. So we ended up choosing March 7th. So, like, that's when we celebrate my grandma's birthday. No idea. No idea if that's even remotely or even what year. Yeah, no, it was the same thing.

[B]

She wasn't there, so how would. I mean, she wouldn't remember. She was young.

[A]

Yeah, no, exactly. But it was just always. I was like, okay, all right, Grandma, you know that whole thing. Back to the piece that you wrote for the Times about your dad. I noticed that you had dialogue in there between you two, and he was calling you Mark. So is that your given name?

[B]

No. It's interesting. The New York. This is a very strange assignment. The New York Times Op Ed page, which is what it was on, asked me to write a short story for Father's Day, a fiction short story for Father's Day in the Op Ed page. I don't really understand why they asked me to do that. I was extraordinarily grateful. So I did change around a fact or two in it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One is I gave another name. No, he called me Harlan. And I, you know, change a factor to around, but very, very little. And so I just took the exact story of my father, changed one or two little things, and made that. It reads like a short story.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

I didn't want it to necessarily read like a memoir piece. I wrote one on my mom. That one reads more like a memoir piece.

[A]

Okay. I didn't see that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, interesting newspaper called the Star Ledger. But, yeah, that was a very cathartic piece. Still one of my favorite pieces I've ever. I've ever written.

[A]

Okay, but so is the hotel key in the. That's true. Okay.

[B]

That's true. You can't make that up.

[A]

No, you know, it's. It's interesting. So I just executive produced sort of my first big project of scripted tv. I had done a documentary before, but it was just interesting to me the. Because it was based on Amanda Knox, and she was also an executive producer. And so those. Those moments where the showrunner is capturing an emotional truth, but maybe using different words or using A different thing. And so it's just. It's interesting because I totally choked up when I was reading that about your dad. And so I would have been very surprised if then, you know, that is absolutely true.

[B]

And every year, I mean, it's been. I think I wrote that piece almost 20 years ago, maybe more. Every year I post that piece on Father's Day. Every year I post an old picture when I was a little kid of me and my dad. And every year I post the one about my mother. And every year, it's wonderful to see the reaction. But, yeah, that's why I called the story. The Key to My Father is the name of that story. So that key part. And you're always looking for that. Actually, though, even as a fiction writer, you're always looking for the key. It's interesting that the Amanda Knox case. To interview you for a second. Of course, anything Amanda Knox case was, I thought, one of the most interesting examples of one of the things I love to write about, which is the human condition. And that is one of the human conditions. This is really important to people understand in life because that's, I think, what got people to go after Amanda Knox. We all think that we are uniquely complex and no one can read us, but we can read everybody else. And of course, that can't be true. That's the beauty of it. Right. You're thinking, he doesn't really know exactly what I'm thinking, but I know what he's thinking. And when people saw Amanda Knox and they thought, oh, she's dancing in the prison, or she, oh, I know what she's really like, but she can't know what I'm real. So people jump to that conclusion. It's something that I deal with a lot in my books, because everybody, in a sense, that means if that's true, which it is, it means everybody doesn't mean they always have a nasty secret, but that means everybody has a secret life inside of them, and everybody's a secret in some way. You can't know everybody fully, but that's one of the human conditions, is where we look at people and we go, oh, I know what they're thinking, but they can't possibly know what I'm thinking. And that can't be true.

[A]

Right, Right. Well, I think also alongside that is the bias that people think they know how they would act in a situation in which they have not yet been or hopefully may never be. And so that's kind of a fascinating. I think that's some of what happened to her too, of people who didn't have an elastic idea of what grief looks like or trauma looks like. And so it's. It was an amazing process to work on that show. And I know you've done a lot of. You've now moved into that, into this space, into that different.

[B]

I have a true crime series coming on, coming on CBS Wednesday nights, January 7th, I think the first one. So all of January. It's called, Egomaniacally Enough, Harlan Coben's Final Twist. And I'm the host of a true crime series on CBS on Mount Plus.

[A]

And so what drew you, like, what drew you into wanting to do something like that?

[B]

You know, a lot of times people say something in my book is unrealistic, and I'm like, yeah, it's really not. If you think about it, truth is much stranger than fiction. Every one of these stories, true crime stories that we're doing for the TV show on cbs, for every one of them, there's a moment where if it was I had written a novel, you would pick up a novel and throw it across the room saying, oh, that can never happen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Anything about the entire world, everybody, every expert, every pundit has gotten everything wrong. Did anybody predict we would have these telephones and we'd be staring at them all day? No. Did anybody predict where our politics would be right now? No. Does anybody predict the scourge that is social media? No. Nobody predicts anything correctly. It's really important to remember that when you're watching these experts on tv, think about it. Go back and watch some show from 10, 15, 20 years ago. No one got anything right.

[A]

I'm going to disagree with you. Gary Sorkin got a lot like the American Taliban. I mean, there's, yes, pieces of it, I guess, but not everything. Yes, you're right.

[B]

I mean, I think the most dominant thing in the world right now is our. Is those, is us on our phones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've never seen a movie where or heard anybody say, I'm going. I just at the airport and I used to go years ago, I would love to go to the airport and hope to find somebody reading my book. And then I go up to them and go, do you like that book? They'd say, no. And then I feel really terrible. But there's no one with a book. I can't tell myself person the book, they all on our phone. Sometimes we have an ebook with us. But it's sort of. No one predicted any of this. Most things in life I shouldn't do nothing, of course I'M being. I mean, no, no, facetious. But really we have this hubris of thinking that we know and we really don't. Man plans, God laughs. It's my favorite expression, that old Yiddish, man plans, God laughs.

[A]

Right. There's a Harvard professor who wrote a book. I'm not going to remember his name. I think the book was called Life is Not a Bowl of Cherries or something like that. And he talks about how we're so bad at being future predictors and yet we don't recognize that within ourselves is why we say, I'm going to start a diet tomorrow and then don't start the diet. Because we've predicted this future in that way. So it is. I think we do struggle at times with that prediction. I mean, I think about AI now. I mean, and just to sort of hear all the. Sadly, they all seem to be fathers. I'm sorry, the fathers of AI. It doesn't seem to be many women at the forefront. That's the part that scares me, is that we just. That there does seem to be some writing on the wall, and yet people. There's no plan for how we're gonna deal with the job loss, how people are gonna have their basic needs met. And, you know, Andrew Yang was on the podcast earlier this year, and he was. I think that when he was running for office, his whole, like, everybody gets $1,000, like his version of universal basic income that people sort of made fun of is something we're really going to. I think we're really going to have to. To think about as AI starts to. To move into that place.

[B]

Well, the world is moving and changing so rapidly.

[A]

Right. That it's like Moore's Law, I think, is. Moore's Law. Has. Moore's Lawd itself. Itself, probably.

[B]

Exactly. You know, exactly the cycles of the world. You know, when you think of the Mesoic age and Industrial Revolution. But it just keeps. It's going to keep getting smaller and smaller, and it's not even. Sometimes, you know, I. I just don't. I don't go there because there's also not much you can do. There's a Buddhist expression that you try to tend. You know, you can only tend to the garden you can reach. I try to tend to the garden I can reach. And if I can make my garden better, and we can all make our own garden better, maybe that'll help. But when I start to think universally, it's almost. It's like when you're trying to think of how minuscule or, you know, it's one of those minuscule. Our planet is minuscule. Our lives are. You start to lose your mind. So I try to think of the 10 to the garden. You can reach Buddhist expression and try to go from there.

[A]

But. So tell no one you had an experience. I don't know if you like to talk about this or not, right? But I read somewhere you had this experience with it of the first process of turning it into a different kind of entertainment, right? Into a movie or TV movie. And you were less than thrilled, right?

[B]

Oh, no. Tell no one I was thrilled with.

[A]

So that's okay. Wait, was there. Was there one that. I thought there was one that and that. Then the.

[B]

Oh, before, when I first. When I first gave it to them, I first sold. Tell no one. Tell no one was the first book of mine that. It was like a bidding war turned into a movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And a major studio bought it and two major writers worked on it. And I'm not precious with my material. I think the worst adaptations are the ones that stay super devoted to the text. I don't care if it's the same as the book. I just want it to be really good. But the changes they made were horrendous and stupid. And I got the script and I was like, this is. So I explained to you what Tell no. 1 was about a man who loses his wife and he can't go on. So their first comment was, well, if we have someone like George Clooney playing it, who's going to believe that George Clooney wasn't dating or falling in love after that many years? I'm like, well, anybody with a beating heart, you're Hollywood. So I get. You don't get it. And they're like, so let's give him a girlfriend. And when his wife comes back, now it's a love triangle, right? I'm like, no.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can change everything else. You can move them to the Bahamas or wherever you want to move him to Alaska. You could change his profession. You could change his age. You can change eight years to three years. But the whole. The whole heart is. This is a man who can't get over the death of his wife. That's the beating heart of the book. They just couldn't get that Hollywood. So I ended up a crazy French guy named Guillaume Canet. He's brilliant, actually. He actually won for the movie. I'm proud to say he won the Cesar, which is their Oscar for best director.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

When he's only. I think he's in his early 30s. He was the youngest runner of. And he was calling me on the phone and giving me. And I loved his passion for it. So even though I was still. I was a little known, but I was not that well known. I'd never had a production made. I had a one out in the contract and I took it and I gave it to Guillaume Canay in France. And we ended up making this movie called Ne la die Person Tell no one, which won all kinds of awards. And Michael Caine put it in his autobiography as one of his top 10 movies of all time. Wow. And it's not a lot of. A lot of best of lists. And I'm still, you know, we're super proud of it. I can't take too much credit for it. I just. You just use my book. But Guillaume made a. Made a beautiful, brilliant movie and he. Maybe it's the French thing. They stuck with the idea that this man couldn't get up.

[A]

Well, but I think what's interesting is that's the emotional truth of the book. And they were trying to change the emotional truth.

[B]

They could change everything else.

[A]

Yeah. And I'm done. But that's the. But I think that's at the heart of, you know, when you're talking about the emotional connection to characters and things, that. That's really at the heart is reflecting human condition of an emotional truth that most of us have some way of feeling.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

And so what are you now? You executive produce everything? I mean, what did that teach you about. In whose hands? How you would go through this process of lending your stories in a way to a different medium?

[B]

For a long time I stayed completely out of it. I didn't do anything with TV or movies. And I really focused on my books because for a novelist, I mean, Hollywood destroyed F. Scott Fitzgerald and Hemingway, Raymond Chandler, all these geniuses. Dashiell Hammett got caught up and destroyed by Hollywood. I knew I would get crushed. So for many years I was warned off and didn't. I wouldn't touch anything. I wouldn't do anything. And then about 10 years ago, when I was ready for something new in the career, I got really involved in the first one that I did, which was also overseas. I do most of my stuff overseas because it gives a level of freedom that frankly the American system doesn't give me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I had fun doing it. And part of it was it was just fun. It was great fun. We had tremendous amount of success. And Netflix sent us, signed us to this bigger overall deal and we started to do A lot of. But it's sort of weird because you would. You know. On the one hand, I am a socially adept introvert. I have spent most of my life alone in a room. You've written 37 novels. You spend most of your life alone in a room. TV's the opposite. It's all collaborative. And so I was able to not lose one or the other by. I'm alone in a room. I love it. But it's really been nice to see some people. I go out on set, I'm there a few days, I lose my mind. I want to be alone again.

[A]

Yeah, I get that.

[B]

I go back and forth and I get to have the best of both worlds and escape. And one actually helped me write the other because I started to get tired of being alone in that room after all those years.

[A]

What about directing? Is that something you've just flirted with the idea?

[B]

I mean, I do. I'm so involved in the thing that I can talk to directors just like. I just don't know if I want to spend that much time or focus. And I'm not. Maybe one day. I shouldn't say. I always say never say never. Maybe one day, but not today. Yeah, not today.

[A]

Yeah. It's a whole different visual. I mean, not that I've directed, but I.

[B]

But I mean, I see things in my head that way. And I talk to directors and I tell them how I picture scenes and things like that. But actually directing it, and it's a. It's very time consuming and I just don't know. Also, me not writing a book for a couple of years, probably, and things like that. I don't know if I want to do that yet.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

And if they let me. You know, I'm talking. Oh, yes. They don't let me do whatever I want to do, despite.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

But success you have.

[A]

Right. But it's. But I think that there is. I think when you have proven right on the page that you know how to tell a story and there's certain things you can probably demonstrate they might be more likely, especially if they want more of your books.

[B]

You can try using that. Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's sort of a. Right. I mean, I'm sure your agents handle your deals but there's a version of those things where it's like, well, I want my next deal to include. Right. And so guys are open to that.

[B]

Monica, do you want to be working as my agent there?

[A]

Talk to me a little about if you feel comfortable. Were your parents still with us when you found success?

[B]

No, my parents have never seen any of my success, unfortunately. It's one of the. It's one of the tortures of my life that my dad died before I had anything published. My mother, I was super small time.

[A]

I'm sure not to her. I'm sure she told everybody. My son, the published writer, she would.

[B]

Go into bookstores and pretend she was a fan. And how come you don't have any of his books and all of that? Oh, my God, she was impossible. But. And I mean that in the best of ways, but it is sort of one of the torments of my life that they never. They never got to see. They never got to see any of it. And, you know, it's a. It's a weird. It's a strange. It's a strange thing. It's a sad thing for me that Saturday, they never got to meet their grandchildren. But that's always been something. And it's, you know, I know a lot of your podcasts, you talk about recurring dreams and things like that. And that is one of mine sad ones that there'll always be. My dad also, not long before he died, had lost his job. And I do think part of it was the stress of that. You're talking about, like, I think that, you know, men define themselves by their jobs. And I do think that was a tremendous stress on him. And he died. You know, read the story. Suddenly I have a heart attack after a plane ride. And so my, my recurring dream, not to get too serious with everybody here, but we're going deep here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My recurring dream usually has my dad alive and he's worried about money. And I keep telling him, you don't have to anymore. I'm doing really well and it's going to be okay. And then this is. The more I'm going to start swelling up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's always that moment in a dream when you realize it's a dream, he's still in the dream. And there's always that part where I'm so happy my dad's alive. And there's the part of the dream when I realize I'm waking up and he's not going to be here, he's going to be dead again. And I kind of try grabbing on and, you know, it's not going to work. And then you wake up, there's usually tears on my face.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow, that was deep. But that's. That's my sad dad recurring dream that I still have. And I'm well over 60 now.

[A]

It is. It's Interesting. I don't know. I don't know why my stepdad and my grandma keep coming up for me in this conversation, too.

[B]

People we've lost.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. It just. It's interesting because I think my version of that is neither my grandma nor my stepdad got to see my life change. And so they were gone before my Vanity Fair essay or the TED Talk and those things.

[B]

And so when you reclaim, so to speak. Right.

[A]

Yeah. When I began the reclaiming. But someone told me something once that, you know, I clung to it because it helped me, which was this idea of that people pass over sometimes because they have to help the thing in this dimension get over the hump. And so it's like. I don't know. I just somehow think about that. I think about, okay, well, you know, maybe they left so that they could be this force to help things change, you know? And so I can't imagine. I don't want to say to you, well, gee, maybe your parents left so they could help you become a mortgage, because I know you'd rather choose having them here. But it is. It is that it's one of those things that I find so hard because we all cling to this. This story we've been told about how life works, you know, and so. And then when these things happen that.

[B]

That.

[A]

That don't follow that narrative, it's like we have to find a different way to make sense of the story. Does that make sense?

[B]

I think that one of the problems, again, with human beings in general is we. We all have our own narratives, and we want to stick to it no matter what. There's a Sherlock Holmes quote that I. That. That I love, where he basically warns us against, don't theorize before you have facts, because then you twist facts to suit theories rather than theories to suit facts. And I think we deal with our narrative. We have a narrative, and so we try to fit anything that happens in our life in that narrative rather than having the courage to change our narrative or to change our mind. And I think that's where you. That's when you're happier or successful, when you're. My favorite moments, frankly, is when I realized I was wrong and I changed my mind. It's such a freeing, wonderful thing. I wish we could normalize that.

[A]

Yeah, me too.

[B]

I wish everybody could just say, like, wow, shit, I got that wrong. Yeah, no one does.

[A]

I find also the same. I find people have a really hard time saying, oh, I fucked up. I'm really sorry.

[B]

Yeah, I love that.

[A]

I don't understand why it's so hard for. I mean, I'm like, I fuck up all the time. And it's just, it is, it's that freeing is the right word of it just. It keeps you. Because I think all the other. Not being able to change your mind and. Or staying locked in a position keeps you frozen inside something.

[B]

And we so admire it and yet we're afraid to do it. We so admire it when we see it in others and we're all so afraid to do it. But yeah, when somebody really takes. And it's also really disarming when someone takes full blame, you know, whatever anger leaks right out from you. So. But yeah, I think that we don't have. We don't change our narrative enough. We all have our own narrative and we try to jam everything in there, even if it doesn't fit.

[A]

Right. Well, I mean, that's so much our self identity. Right. And those. I mean, it's all really. A lot of that is some of what I studied in graduate school in social psychology of just like groups and belonging and the fear of being ostracized. And so there's that consistency there that we look for because we all want to fit in.

[B]

We all want to be the only person. The person that tells you they don't care what anybody thinks is lying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In fact, they're telling you the kind of person doesn't care what they think. So you think, oh, this is the kind of person who doesn't care what they think, so they don't care what you think. Sorry if that sounds confusing, but, you.

[A]

Know, I know 100% what you mean.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To deny the things that we try to deny or pretend that we're not, it's just. It cracks me up at this stage of the year. Yeah.

[A]

So as a writer who is sold 90 million copies, you have 37 books that you've written. At some point, this becomes a business in a different way. And how did you go about making those decisions? Are there strategies that you. I mean, not that I'm asking for advice, I'm just curious. Not personal advice, but I mean advice for other people. But I'm just curious. Curious about that side especially because as a creative and an artist in that way, I think that people are sometimes seen as not. Not being able to recognize. I'm gonna shut up now.

[B]

No, it's. Well, it's funny because. Right. There's a. There's that branding question. Right. And the TV shows somewhere along the way and I kind of. It's A weird story how it happened. They put my name above the title of the show, which is embarrassing. Harlan Coben spoiled me once. I kind of want to call my next book a dumbass. So Harlan Coben's a dumbass.

[A]

Have you seen those things on Instagram? Oh, my God. What was the. Oh, this was so. Oh, shit. It was something. It was like, oh, I don't know. But they all end up being very body. I don't know. Whatever, go ahead.

[B]

Okay, whatever. Those things are embarrassing. But anyway, the business side of things, and I don't want to sound. It's going to sound Pollyanna or naive. I don't really. I've never worried about the business end of writing or whatever, even though I've had great business success in it, because I don't know enough. So, like, for example, when I was first starting out, chain bookstores were the scourge. Borders and Barnes and Obligen destroy the business. Then it was, Amazon's gonna destroy the business. Then it was, ebooks are terrible, and what do you think? And people ask me what I think. I'm like, I don't like a little child like, na, na, na, I can't hear you. All I knew was if I wrote a book people wanted to read, they may read it on stone tablets. I'm going to be okay. I can control that. Right? It's serenity prayer. I'm tending my own guard. The Buddhist expression. As long as I worry about writing the best book, I can't help if it's going to be chains or Amazon. I'm not powerful enough. So I never worried about it. And the other side of that, which, again, is going to sound really corny and fake, but I swear it's not. I've never once chased the dollars. I always chase the reader's hearts. And I know that if I chase the reader's hearts, the dollars will follow.

[A]

Before I sort of pivot to our final question, is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't talk about?

[B]

As I've told people, I'm doing this podcast. I want to get excited, teary for you. The excitement level about you and the people who all are saying, oh, my God, I love her. I love what she's done. I love her career choices. I love to follow her on Instagram. And it's amazing. Literally everybody. It's just. I don't think I've done a podcast or done something where I've seen so many people who are excited about the fact that I'm doing This.

[A]

That means a lot.

[B]

Yeah, it's really. I mean, I know that your. Your podcast is. Is. Is, you know, reclaiming, and we all know what you've been through, but the fact that everyone is so excited about you and. And so you should really feel proud about that.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You should really take pride in that.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Because that's, you know, it could be. It could have disappeared. You got a lot of different ways. But that people are excited for the way, you know, you've handled yourself and brought and done all of that and the love that's out there for you. It's unbelievable. Really is. I don't think I've seen a reaction to it like that in any of the other interviews or people that I've met.

[A]

Thanks, Harlan. Yeah, that's really. That's very meaningful.

[B]

Absolutely true. I could start showing you all the text.

[A]

It's great.

[B]

And I'm bragging about it, too. Oh, I'm doing a podcast in monolithic. I am be a submit. They're all.

[A]

Wow. They can all come on. So it's a group.

[B]

We'll do a group podcast.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. It's really. I've loved. I've loved doing it so far, and I'm excited to continue wherever I am.

[B]

I'm honored to be here.

[A]

Oh, well, it's very, very kind. I've loved this chat, but I always ask everybody at the end if there is anything you are currently working on reclaiming in your life, and that can be. We use a very elastic, you know, I mean, I was even thinking about, you know, with your. I wanted you to have you on because you're interesting and I like chatting with you a little bit. I was like, oh, this will be great. But also because so many of your themes, the themes in your books are about this sort of old trauma resurfacing that gets resolved, and that's a reclaiming, you know, I mean, not to be on the. Like, we're not on the nose in this podcast, but they, like. I'm always excited by these. The various ways it threads through our life, you know, so much so I.

[B]

Think in the same way that, like, Agatha Christie always had murder stories, I almost always have missing people stories. And I do missing people for a couple reasons. But one reason I do missing people is if somebody's dead, they're dead. You're solving a crime, you can have justice. But if somebody's missing, you could be made whole. You can have full redemption. You could make it all sort of go away. Also, you know, I Think part of it, as we've discussed with my parents, is that whole wish of we all that wish about someone that what if. What if we could see them again?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What if we could do it? And you mentioned the trauma thing at this stage in my life. And again, this sounds Pollyanna Corny. I really. I want to bring up the people that I work with. So, like when I go on set to a TV show and I have these actors and. And writers and the guys doing the lighting and the person's doing sound, if their career is here, I want their career when they're done with what I'm doing, to be here. I love that. We just had the premiere for Runaway, and there was a lot of young actors, their first major roles and watching their excitement and hearing their thanks and joy and asking me about their career sort of things. That's where I am. And I hadn't really had a chance to do that before in my life. I'm not a teacher. I'm nothing like that. But I do want to help the people that I work with and love that are close to me get to that next step that for me is. And I think that helps me reclaim whatever trauma I've had in my life by making, you know, not in a big way. I'm not. I'm not a big picture kind of guy. That way I'm not to help the whole world. I wish I was. But if I could help my corner of it. 10 my own garden. That I think is probably. Probably the closest I come to something that. Reclaiming something.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's really beautiful. Really interesting. Yeah.

[B]

I really found tremendous joy. And again, I hate saying this kind of things because it sounds so phony, but I really have tremendous joy now in other people's joys that are around me. That's where I'm finding the most joy in my life. I've had a tremendous amount of success. I've had a lot of bestsellers and the TV shows, and I still want that. And I'm ambitious. That's gonna go away, but I want to take people with me on it. I don't wanna be. When I write a novel, I'm Winnie Wimbledon. I'm the guy alone on the court. I am now preferring where I can take people with me and be the captain of a team we can all celebrate together. And I love that.

[A]

That's. That's really interesting. It's sort of. I mean, it's also like. And men sometimes go through these transitions in their lives. Women do it. I think in different ways, but sort of that going from prince to King, you know, and so it's when you are thinking about everybody, not just how you're gonna. I didn't come up with it, so I took these courses a long time ago.

[B]

None of us are gonna do anything.

[A]

Yeah, but it's. Yeah. From prince to king.

[B]

I actually heard that before. But maybe, you know, as. As you age, you get, you know, you see a lot of different things and you think a lot of different things and. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of cool.

[A]

It's just. But it's great too because, you know, the. There's some people who have a lot of success and they. They hate themselves so much that they can't actually find that joy for other people in that way. So I think it's a great. You know, it's good. This is the beginning of a friendship. So I hope, you know. Yeah, definitely. We'll have dinner with Anne next time I'm here.

[B]

I love that too. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Would be great. So this is. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

So much. This was so wonderful. Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF media studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez, Ren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.