Loading summary
Transcript143 lines
- [00:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Wondery subscribers can listen to Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky early and ad free right now. Join Wondery in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts.
- [00:20]
Jamie Kern Lima
So many of us, we believe this lie that these labels are somehow permanent or that they're true, and we let them take root in our identity. And they're not. They're like post it notes where they have like this light adhesive. And if we decide, I'm taking that label off of me and I'm reclaiming who I am. And it started with me believing, oh, no. I remember that little girl who felt like I'm destined for greatness.
- [00:54]
Monica Lewinsky
Jamie, I am so excited to welcome you to Reclaiming. Thank you for being here today.
- [01:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
I am excited, I'm honored. I'm an another woman just screaming, cheering you on with everything. And I'm excited for this show and all of us that are reclaiming our own story.
- [01:13]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, it's so interesting because so many people know you either as the founder of IT Cosmetics, you know, who sold her L', Oreal, her company to L' Oreal for $1.2 billion cash, or as the, you know, woman who went from a waitress at Denny's to selling her company to L' Oreal for 1.2 million cash. Like that. You know, there's such this incredible narrative around you, which is all true. I really heard your story for the first time at Amy Griffin's G9 conference the other year and was so just in awe. Kind of one of those, your story is one where your jaw drops many times of moments. And I excited to get into all that. But, you know, I think for me, I don't know about for you, but for me, I felt like our connection and friendship really started not long after the conference when you noticed that I was feeling a little left out in a social situation and you, like, brought me into a conversation and we just kind of connected soul to soul and. And have just really enjoyed each other's company ever since then. So.
- [02:28]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. Yeah. I love that you remember that moment.
- [02:31]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [02:32]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [02:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, and I, I remember too. And we can, we can chat on it later. Just about. You're not having yet celebrated your success at that point.
- [02:44]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes, yes, that's true. We had the best conversation. And you were saying, what did you do to celebrate, you know, when you went from waitressing at Denny's, which I love that job, but to building a billion dollar company, like when I was waitressing at Denny's Monica. I had so much self doubt at the time. And I, at that time couldn't have even imagined, you know, believing I was worthy enough of building a company, of doing all of the different things that I eventually have done. And I remember you asked me, how did you celebrate? How did you celebrate selling your company for a billion dollars? And I was like, I don't know that I have yet. And it hit me, that question hit me. And you know, for anybody who has ever kind of like finally gotten the goal and then they're almost like right onto the next thing. I realized through the power of that conversation, I need to learn to celebrate a little bit. Definitely working on that. Yeah.
- [03:37]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I think we both. In different ways. I think through different. I don't know, we're journey so overused, but journey, path, whatever it is. I feel like we both have said to each other about wanting to find more joy and noticing the joy more and hunting for the joy more. And so I think there is all that. And that's, you know, definitely something I've been working on.
- [04:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
I think that's so beautiful. I'll never forget when you said to me, you saw the playground at my house for my kids, and you're like, it'd be great for us adults to just go and just be in the playground and play. I'm like, right, okay.
- [04:18]
Monica Lewinsky
But we need to back up and you need to explain that this is not just any playground. This is not like a few swings in a backyard. This is.
- [04:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, it's like, what did you build? I was raised in. In a dirt sandbox. Like, I remember how old was I when we finally. We were able to buy like a swing set? You know, I think it was from Walmart or Costco, something like that. That was a big deal in my family at the time. My parents worked so hard and anyhow. Yeah. So I just have to make sure at this point I don't mess my kids up because, yeah, we built this. This very elaborate playground with a little play village. And I remember showing it to you for the first time and. But you sharing that was. Was big for me because I think as adults, sometimes we. For, you know, and I bet a lot of people listening can relate to that. We're like. Because there's so much going on. There's so much to worry about. There's so much that we're carrying and it's like, huh. But to just have the wonder, you know, I named my daughter Wonder to have the wonder of going, yeah, you know what Maybe we should just go play in the playground, you know, and, and there's a playground and maybe take some gummies and.
- [05:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, just an adult night.
- [05:27]
Jamie Kern Lima
An adult version.
- [05:29]
Monica Lewinsky
Because the playground, right, the structures on the playground, we could fit in them.
- [05:32]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes, right. Yes.
- [05:34]
Monica Lewinsky
It's amazing.
- [05:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
It's an interesting idea because you about in every corner, every block of America, there's a public park, there's something there. And so often we could, we could actually reclaim fun again in our lives. So that's actually a big goal of mine. Yeah, yeah. I think I've lost, I lost it for a long time working 100 hour weeks and just kind of like driving so hard also, you know, thinking I needed to, you know, achieve to be worthy. There was a long time I didn't believe I was enough unless I achieved enough. And so I was just like, that's all I did. And I realized and for anyone else who's done this where they like finally get the goal or whatever and they're like, why didn't that fulfill me? I now know now after doing so much work on understanding, how do we actually believe we're enough? Because right now as we're talking, 80% of women don't believe they're enough. 73% of men, yeah, 73% of men feel inadequate and not enough. And so many of us, we bury it, we push it down. We think it's just us, we think like, oh, everyone else looks like they have it together. It must just be me that has self doubt, that thinks I'm not enough. And I think, you know, I love that beautiful moment that you shared when I did, I saw you and I was like, is she feeling like a little bit left out? Because if anyone's ever been in a circle of women talking or people talking and you kind of feel like you're not in it. I've felt that. I have felt that.
- [06:58]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, I felt it so many times as a kid. And then certainly, you know, there have definitely been moments. In fact, I remember a. And this was a guy who did it, but I was at a small engagement dinner party and there was someone at the party who clearly hadn't known I was going to be there and wasn't pleased about it. This was maybe 20, 22 years ago and the guy kept dodging every time somebody was trying to take a photo. And I eventually realized that he didn't want to be in a photo with me. And so it was just that, you know, in that moment, it's one thing when you're kind of at a big party, and this was a small dinner, and luckily there was a guy there who didn't care and he kind of gave this other guy a talking down to. So, yeah, yeah.
- [07:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
So we've all felt that. And I feel that, you know, so many of us want to make friends as an adult or we want deeper connections. And I think when we are willing to be brave and actually vulnerable and be like, I know how that feels, and just in case, you know, my new friend is feeling that way, let me bring her in the circle. I feel like that's the ultimate power. Like, I'm the opposite of that guy. Like, if there's someone that no one will want a photo with, we all have that feeling, whether we want to admit it or not. But I'm the person that will be like, I feel that. I don't want that person to feel that. You know what I mean? And it's like, I feel like that's how we change the world is like being the person that we want someone to be for us, like giving what we need, you know, and also to build great friendships. And that was like a beautiful moment because now, you know, I just love you. Now when I'm like, if I need a pick me up, I'm on your Instagram stories, laughing so hard, trying not to send you response emojis to every story that you do because they're so.
- [08:51]
Monica Lewinsky
Funny, but also because I think what I love about the interactions I have with people through my Insta stories is that seeing who responds, like, who laughs at what, and that there are certain groups of friends of mine, like, there's certain people that I know who don't know each other that have the same exact responses to certain things. Or there'll be things where I think of, you know, I think of you as so you're so, like, present and responsible and your faith is such a big part of your life. And so I kind of, in my mind, you never actually get angry at anything. And so sometimes when you respond to my memes that have swear words, I'm like, yes, Jamie. You know, I don't know, because it feels a little subversive for you.
- [09:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, faith is a huge, huge part of me. A lot of people are like, how did you go from, you know, literally on the verge of bankruptcy in your living room to building a billion dollar business? Like, yeah, I worked really, really hard and I got back up every time I got knocked down and I figured out how to not listen to all the no's. I mean, there were Millions of nos and rejection for years. But I truly believe that it's my faith that's believing God can dream a bigger dream for me than I can for myself. And I'm like, okay. Every time I'd be scared to walk in a room, I'm like, okay, but you know what? If I'm walking in this room, if I'm getting the opportunity, like, I know he's with me, so I have very strong faith. Also, I think a lot of people are scared of faith because they feel judged. They feel like they're not accepted. They feel like something's wrong with them, or they, like, disqualify themselves from it. Listen, I think if Jesus were standing right here, like, he would love everyone, no matter how they identify, no matter who they love, no matter how they. I believe God is love. And so when I see somebody who is curating their Instagram stories and it is the funniest shit I've ever seen, I celebrate that. I think that is like, a gift, a talent, an anointing, and I don't know who's listening. That is not on your Instagram stories. But if you're not, your life is somehow better when you go on them.
- [11:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, so now, given that you have this unbelievable success, is it. Is it true that you were named a procrastinator or biggest procrastinator in high school?
- [11:14]
Jamie Kern Lima
It is true. I wish I could tell you, Monica, I was voted most likely to succeed, or Monica, I was voted, I don't know, funniest or something. No, I was. And this is, like. I don't think anyone's ever asked me this. No one's ever asked. I've never even talked about this. But I love that you asked me, because for anybody who's listening right now who had someone put a label on.
- [11:36]
Monica Lewinsky
Them or I'm a procrastinator. So are you.
- [11:39]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes. Here's the thing is, like, I. You know, I always. I remember being a little girl. I remember this moment where I watched Barbara Walters interview Oprah. And I remember Oprah said to her, I was. I. I've always known I was destined for greatness. She said that to Barbara. And then I remember being, like, 8 years old, and I remember having this feeling in me that was like, me, too. Like, I feel like I'm different from how I'm being raised. I feel like I'm gonna. I'm gonna help people. I feel like I'm gonna serve. I feel like I'm. I'm. I'm destined for something great. Like, I Felt that. And then I remember what happened in the press. I remember the backlash when Oprah said that. Because at the time, no one was used to a woman speaking so confidently. But I always remember feeling those things. So fast forward to high school. I get voted biggest procrastinator. Yes, I turned in. Okay, first of all, I was working like four jobs. Yes, I turned in my homework late, all the things, but I was devastated by it. Oh, yeah.
- [12:40]
Monica Lewinsky
And I was like, oh, I'm sorry, I. Did I bring up something?
- [12:43]
Jamie Kern Lima
No, it's good to talk. It's good to talk about this because. Because in the story of reclaiming, actually that I'm putting together, live as I talk to you about it. If anyone's had someone say something like, you'll never do that, or you're not, you know, smart enough or maybe like, tease you or whatever, I struggle with it for a while. I'm like, am I gonna. Am I the biggest procrastinator? Do other people not see who I truly am? Like, all of it. It was a minute, and then I remember deciding, literally deciding, I am not gonna let somebo put a label on me. I'm not gonna let it stick. And I had this moment where I'm like, you know what? These labels. And I. And I can think to others growing up, other labels that have sort of been spoken over me, and we all have them.
- [13:28]
Monica Lewinsky
Blowjob Queen, you know.
- [13:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
You what?
- [13:30]
Monica Lewinsky
Blowjob queen.
- [13:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
Blowjob queen. Blow job queen. Right. And it's like, here's what's so beautiful. And this is why I love the work you're doing in the world with reclaiming. I love so much of this because so many of us, we believe this lie that these labels are somehow permanent or that they're true, and we let them take root in our ide. And they're not. They're like post it notes where they have like this light adhesive. And if we decide, you know, some of us, it's a lot of work to get them off. But for me, I was like, you know what? No, I'm working four jobs. I know who I am. And yes, I turned in all my homework late and didn't get the best of grades in high school. But you know what? I'm taking that label off of me and I'm reclaiming who I am. And it started with me believing, oh, no. I remember that little girl who felt like I'm destined for greatness. I really remember that. And so, you know, I remember, you know, working at Denny's, being Like, okay, I love this job. And I would have thoughts like, can I run this restaurant? Like, I'd look at the manager and I still had so much self doubt at the time, but I felt that feeling. Like, okay, I felt that feeling. And it was like a lot of work to get there. But I'll never forget when the day we, you know, we launched IT Cosmetics. It was years and years and years of rejections and no's, but we eventually built it to over a thousand employees. And I remember when, when, when l' Oreal bought the company and it was like in everywhere. I actually remember thinking back to that, that biggest procrastinator label. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I felt empowered. Like, oh, no, no, that's not my story. And that's what I love is you can go from underestimated to unstoppable because you're in control of the labels you let stick to you. But it's like you have the power to take that label off and to reclaim. And like you, you are who you decide you are, and that's what's so beautiful.
- [15:16]
Monica Lewinsky
Do you think, do you think whoever voted on that, whatever that was, do you think they knew that you were working four jobs?
- [15:22]
Jamie Kern Lima
I don't think so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
- [15:25]
Monica Lewinsky
I mean, because that feels, you know, context is always so important to understanding people.
- [15:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. And that was a good lesson. I'm like, huh, I'm kind of misunderstood. And I'm like, okay, so this is what it feels like to be misunderstood. Let me feel that for a minute. And then also, what can I do to make sure people actually know who I am? Yeah.
- [15:47]
Monica Lewinsky
And then, I don't know. I can't remember if it was high school or college.
- [15:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
You do your homework, by the way. No one's ever asked me that. I like.
- [15:55]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah, yeah, but you were then valedictorian, right, in college? Yeah. So, I mean, you fucking showed them, girl.
- [16:02]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [16:03]
Monica Lewinsky
If that wasn't enough, what was really interesting to me is I didn't know until I started deep diving for our chat for this. I didn't know you went to business school, so. Which I should have just assumed because you built this company, but you went to business school. Business school. And that's where you met Paolo, your husband and your business partner. Right. And so. And finishing business school. Right. You kind of have this fork in the road of, do I go start a. Like, go into the business world? Yeah, but you went to. You went into news, right?
- [16:37]
Jamie Kern Lima
It was, you know, it's funny sitting here too. And, And Talking about stories that I think are moments we all face in our lives that are so relevant to this idea of reclaiming. So yeah, I had, I, you know, no one in my family had ever gone to college. And I remember, you know, paying my way through college and then getting into Columbia Business School and loved it, loved all of it. And in the middle of it I was like, oh, you pay so much money, it goes so fast. And I found, I started writing for the, the paper, doing interviews with alumni and being like, you know, trying to get as much value for everyone else, you know, like, you know, what do you wish you knew when you were in business school? And just kind of like these deep dive interviews into with other CEOs and other alumni of the school. I loved it so much that when we were in between the year one and two, everyone else is going and getting like these high paying internships at, you know, in banking or consulting. And I went to, I took this big risk for no money. And I had no money, by the way. And I went to a small market station in Washington state in Yakima, Washington. Unpaid, Unpaid.
- [17:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Have you been to Yakima? I did a talk there.
- [17:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oh my gosh. Okay. So you'll know it's like it's the middle of the country of Washington state. And I did a free, an internship for free where I learned how to write and edit and shoot and all the things. And my aunt lent me her station wagon that when every time you drove it, the panel would fall off. You couldn't go through a car wash. Like it was the whole thing. But I was grateful. And so then I go back to Columbia Business School and everyone, you know, talking about their great internships that are, you know, and they're all set up for after. And I remember when I graduated, a big metric for how to measure the school's success is average starting salary. You know, first year out of. And that's a big deal to these schools that all compete for the top ranked business schools in the country. And the average starting salary was well into the six figures when I graduated. And I just, it was this moment that, that I think, and thank you for asking this because I think had I not listened to my gut and my knowing, my whole life would be different. And you know, I got a job offer in television news for $23,500. Now everyone else is making six figures and with 23,500 a year, I couldn't even make my loan payment, you know, but I'm like, I know, I'm Supposed to do this. I'm gonna figure this out. I'm gonna eat top ramen. I'm gonna figure this out. And I remember a lot of my classmates who are great. They wanted the best for me, but they'. Like, you're doing what? Like, you're graduating Columbia Business School, and you're going to go to Tri Cities, a town called Tri Cities, and. And you're going to make 23,500, like. And I just knew. I think the moments that change our lives, that literally help us become who we're born to be, is when we trust that knowing.
- [19:32]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I mean, your story has so many of those moments, but where do you feel like there's. Is there a moment or a story for you from when you were younger? That was it? That moment when you saw Oprah and you knew you were special or destined to do something special, or was there something else where you sort of formed a relationship with yourself in that knowing?
- [19:58]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, it's funny, that moment. And, you know, for the record, I think all of us have that in us. Like, I actually think. I think, you know, we always hear about cancel culture, and it's brutal. I think. I think the most prevalent form of cancel culture is the one no one talks about. It's when we cancel ourselves before we even try, before we even go for it. And I think that. I think if every one of us kind of gets still, I think we know that, you know, are we. Are we the fullest expression of who we are? Or are we kind of dimming our light? Are we kind of holding back? Are we kind of worried what other people are going to think? Are we kind of not going for it? And I remember in that moment, when I was eight, watching, watching that moment, feeling like that, like, oh, I also. Monica, I felt this is gonna make no sense. But I felt in that moment, like, I'm gonna meet Oprah. I'm gonna meet her one day, and then one day, I'm gonna share other people's stories with the world, like, what she does. And I'm like, this girl who doesn't know nobody, who knows nobody. But I had that feeling. And what I've learned to do is kind of like, trust that feeling even when it doesn't make sense. And I believe when we trust our intuition, I think it' I think it either leads us to the next right step or the next right lesson that we're supposed to learn. And so, like, now I unwaveringly trust it. Like, when you and I were in that social Setting and I saw you kind of out there. I'm like, I have a feeling like we're gonna be friends. I just had a feeling. And also I know what that feels like. Cause you are pretty awesome. You're amazingly awesome. And you are awesome. And you're an incredible friend. No, you are. I don't know, I'm sure you. I'm just gonna say it. I'm on your show, so let me just say this for a minute. In the day to day real world, watching how you show up for your friends, you're an amazing friend. And so I'm very honored to be one of them and I'm honored to celebrate that too. So. But yeah, you know, there's. There's been all these moments where had I not trusted that, that, that whisper, that intuition or that knowing that didn't make sense to anyone, that else things would have been turned out totally different. And sometimes like we just go, oh, well, no one else thinks this, especially women. We make decisions so often through consensus, we have a gut feeling. But then we ask all of our friends or all, yeah, what do you think? But what do you think? But. And before we know it, we doubt ourselves out of our own destiny. And I think like, wow, that's it.
- [22:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Doubt ourselves out of our own destiny.
- [22:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, it's so easy to do. And I look back and there are so many moments where I'm like, oh my gosh. Like there are moments I came close, like when, when, when, you know, building at cosmetics, there was. People look at the outcome now and go, oh, must have been a fairy tale. Or easy. Or you're lucky or you just got lucky or, or the story the press always shares is, Denny's Waitress Builds Billion Dollar Company. Yeah, that's true. But like the years and years and years of, of teetering on bankruptcy, of everyone saying, we don't think you're gonna make us money in your stores. It's a no. You know, we don't think women will buy makeup from images like this of real women or diverse women that we were using. Just. It was no after, no after, no after, no.
- [23:12]
Monica Lewinsky
And it was just to put the pieces together. So it was when you, right when you were on camera, you were an anchor in Washington, right? And you had this moment that led to a total. I don't wanna tell the story.
- [23:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
You tell it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's so funny. Cause that's another. I feel like I'm going through a journey of reclaiming everything, like talking through this because I'm like, oh, yeah. That was another moment of trusting the knowing that didn't make sense to anyone else. But I was like, I know I'm supposed to do this. And so I'm, you know, working in small market news, and I move my way up in markets, and I thought, I'm in my dream job. Like, this is what I'm supposed to do. And what I didn't know is I was about to enter this whole new season of setback in my life and self doubt. And, you know, I have hereditary rosacea, and on my face, for me, it gets really red and bumpy.
- [24:05]
Monica Lewinsky
So, like, I have rosacea too. I don't get bumpy, but I'm red. And then depending on what I eat, sometimes it will flare up.
- [24:11]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So have you ever had. Because for me, I get these postules and these breakouts where it's just bumps everywhere, and my whole face will feel like sandpaper. Okay, good. Thank goodness. Yeah. So I had always had it, and I thought. But I've always been able to cover it with makeup. It's never been an issue. And I remember one day I was anchoring the news live, and I hear in my earpiece from the producer, there's something on your face. There's something on your face. You need to wipe it off. You need to wipe off. And you can't talk back because you're live doing the news. And I was like, okay. And I rationalized in my head, well, I know what it is. I'll just fix it in the commercial break. And I remember during the commercial break, I glanced down at my compact and I tried to cover it, and it wouldn't cover. And now I'm back live anchoring the news. And you know what was happening was that the hot HD lights were breaking up the makeup. And so if you imagine, like, the way desert clay cracks and red kind of comes through. So I'm anchoring live, and I hear in my earpiece, it's still there. It's still there. Oh, my God, Jamie. I'm not Jamie. It's still there. And so that moment, I thought, okay, this is gonna be fine. I just need to figure out maybe a different makeup product. And I would spend. I started spending my entire paycheck on makeup pro makeup artist lines, you know, drugstore brands, department store, and nothing would work. And I remember this season where I'd be on the air live thinking, like, am I going to get fired? Like, I'd be anchoring the news, and you're supposed to be happy, and all this and like, am I casting my. Casting the station ratings? Like, I would have thoughts because of the big season of self doubt. Like, are viewers changing the channel as they're watching? And I'll never forget this moment where. And a lot of us have had moments like this in our lives where I was like, wait a minute, this makes no sense. There are thousands of makeup companies out there. Why does nothing work for me? Yeah, right. And then I had this other moment where I was like, well, if it doesn't, if there's nothing that works for me, there's probably a lot of other, you know, people that have just given up on makeup. They feel like nothing works for them. And I was like, what if I could figure out how to make something that would work for me? It'd probably help a whole lot of people. So it's like this, almost like this. This idea, this gut feeling, this whisper. But then really fast, my head, head, which is where our self doubt lives, talked me out of it really quick. It's like, oh, but you got no money. You have, you know, nobody in the beauty industry. You have no connections. You're unqualified. And I sat in that place of, like, I kept having that feeling every time I would go on the air, like, okay, am I supposed to figure out how to make a product that works for me? Like, is this what? Like, it was like this feeling. Am I supposed to start a makeup company? Like, I never even thought of it. And. And I had that kind of, I guess, whisper in my gut that wouldn't stop. But I was so quick to talk myself out of all the reasons why I'm not qualified. And one day it hit me, and I didn't understand the concept of what's your why for doing something? But it was really a moment of grace where I had this moment where I'm like, this makes no sense that all these companies are out there and nothing works for me. And I was like, well, wait minute. You know, from the time I was a little girl, I would see these television commercials and these ads in magazines, and I always. I loved them. I always aspired to look like them. But deep down inside, they always made me feel like I wasn't enough. And it's because they're. They up to that point had always been sort of like photoshopped. And, you know, and so now I'm sitting there going, wait, I've never actually seen a woman with bright red, bumpy skin saying, like, this product's great, like, selling a product, right? And I was like, what if it's not even a transparency. Yeah.
- [27:48]
Monica Lewinsky
And authenticity.
- [27:49]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. And it was this moment that felt bigger than me. It was like, well, wait a minute. What if it's not even about. What if I can figure out somehow how to make a great product that works for me? But what if I put real people as models and this was not being done? It was like, what if I put every age, shape, size, skin tone, skin challenge, like, call them beautiful, mean it? What if this is bigger than a product? What if I'm supposed to do something that happens, that tries to shift the definition of beauty in the whole beauty industry for, like, every little girl out there who maybe is about to start doubting themselves and every grown woman who still does? And so when that. Why that I needed to do it felt bigger than me. That's what got me to take the risk. And I thought I was in my dream job. Like, I thought, oh, wait, this is what I'm supposed to do forever. But I think sometimes knowing when to let go of a dream matters as much as knowing when to go after one. And it was like I had that feeling, that gut feeling. Yeah.
- [28:45]
Monica Lewinsky
It just. What is so interesting, listening to you is because I feel like so many of us so often will have that. That sort of the back and forth, the tango, the, you know, of. Of is it time to let go? Is it time to keep going? And.
- [29:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
And it can be.
- [29:06]
Monica Lewinsky
So. I mean, I'm just listening to you and thinking about how hard I find it at times to. That there sometimes is very clear, and sometimes it feels really murky, and I have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out, is this my intuition or is this my wishful thinking or is this my negative voice, you know, being an asshole? Is there anything in your body that happens that you notice?
- [29:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. Okay. I love that you said that. I still have that a lot where it's not clear. Like, it'll be something I'm considering, and it's not clear. I've had people ask me to do. You know, I've spoken at so many events. Right. I'm gonna do my 21st Tony Robbins event in a few weeks. I've spoken to a lot of other people's events. Did the Oprah event this last year. Everybody said, like, well, why aren't you doing your own events? And every time I get still and I think about it, it's not clear yet. And so I wait. I will wait. And I think that's okay. I think it's okay to go. Am I hearing my intuition? Right. And if you're not hearing it yet, I think you wait. And I think that's normal. And I think our intuition is like, it's like a muscle that we build. And I think it takes time. One of my favorite ways to do this is I'll sit and I'll think about if anyone's like, gosh, how do I even hear my own intuition? How do I decipher between my self doubt, my human ambition that may come from trauma, and my own intuition, like, how do I tell the difference? And two things that, that have been helpful for me, you know, on my, on my podcast, Oprah was the first guest. And. Yeah. Which is wild because.
- [30:45]
Monica Lewinsky
Full circle, Jamie Kern Lima show. Let's give it a shout out.
- [30:48]
Jamie Kern Lima
I cannot wait for your episode. I cannot wait for you. It is so good. I cannot wait. But one of the things that she said that I now have on replay over and over is she said, you know, when you're not clear? And she goes, you know, you need to get so still and ask God, or the thing you call that's bigger than yourself and wait, you know, ask and wait to hear the answer and just get still until you do. And she said, don't go asking your friends because they don't know, you know, and ask, as she put it, she says, ask God, what is the dream you have for me? Or you know, in the case of any topic, what's the answer to this? And you just wait until you. Until you hear that feeling that's clear. That's either the next right step. And then the key is just trusting it. Trusting right. That it's supposed to. And one thing before I forget that I found helpful is like, okay, how do I make my intuition stronger for someone who's like, how do I build it? How do I, you know, I like to look back at moments and everyone can do this is like, look back at moments in your life where you had that gut feeling feeling like, but you didn't trust it.
- [32:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [32:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
And think about those moments. Remember how did it feel? And then think about when you didn't trust it, what happened? And similarly when maybe you had this thing and all your friends are like, no, no, no, don't do it. But you trusted it. Like, what are moments in your life when you trusted that gut feeling and then what happened? And the more we think about those or focus on those, that familiarity in our body gets growing. And I think it helps us almost like muscle memory in a way. It helps us more quickly identify. Like, oh, yeah, I think this feels right enough to go for it, I think.
- [32:36]
Monica Lewinsky
You know, I sometimes feel like when I'm trying to have the kind of inner conversation or the conversation with the universe, and it's like, please make it idiot proof. Like, undeniable, you know, that is. It is because I feel like I can tease things apart so much in a way that is. I can spin myself in circles when I'm trying to, I think, listen to the intuition. But it's there at times. I mean, when I was doing my TED Talk and I had this experience, right, where this young guy hit on me at a whole thing, and he was like, I'll make you feel 22 again. And it was just a crazy moment. I'd gone back to my hotel room, and I was on the phone with a friend, like, telling him this story. And when I. I hadn't even been asked to do a TED Talk yet. This was my very first Talk, the Forbes 30 under 30. And so when I started working on my TED Talk, I was like, oh, I'm gonna. I think I'm gonna tell this story in the beginning and. Because people need to laugh. And a very, very smart, powerful woman who gave me advice on my talk said, do not do this. Do not start with this joke. This sexualizes you. It's diminishing. It's this, it's that. And it was a very strong knowing for me of, no, I think this is right. And I think there needs to be this collective tension that's broken. And. And, yeah, and it was the right thing for me because I needed. Yeah.
- [34:20]
Jamie Kern Lima
So I love that so much, your TED Talk. I remember when I saw it, and it was like, instantly, I was like, this is so genius. Because every one of us can relate to the things that we did in our early 20s that we would never want broadcast somewhere. Every one of us can relate to that. And then also, I felt it just instantly. Like, had I not known you, it instantly made you hear human and made you feel like me. Like it was a genius. Right? One thing you said that. That I think is so good because a lot of, you know, a lot of people crave mentorship in their life. Or they. Or they think, you know, oh, I just need a mentor this or that, you know, or they have mentors. I love the mentors in my life are life changing. But what I think has been huge. That's so important is that. Is that, you know, back to our talk about intuition, exactly what you did is like. And when I even think about building it, cosmetics, because the impossibility of breaking into a beauty industry, of literally having no money and of being told no for years and of eventually passing all of the biggest companies. The impossibility of that could have never happened if I would have listened to what all the mentors told me. Right. And when you have that woman who probably really is incredible in a lot of areas, tell you, Monica, don't do that. A lot of us, when we have mentors tell us things, we just accept it. But I think that it's so key. No matter what a mentor or someone you revere or a parent or a friend or whoever tells you is like, okay, thank you for that advice. You're amazing. But then also, like, filter it through your own intuition and go, does this feel right for me? Yeah.
- [36:00]
Monica Lewinsky
I think what can be helpful to me, because I'm a big proponent of the kind of kitchen cabinet way of doing things, is that I think sometimes hearing someone else, someone else whom you respect, like hearing their advice or their opinion on something, even if it's different than mine, it does allow me to see how does, like, it helps me shape and sharpen in a way that I know because, look, it's still loud even against that. Or there'll be times where someone will say something, and I'll just think, oh, I didn't actually think about that. And that really changes my perspective. And then everything kind of softens in a way that I'm not sure if.
- [36:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
That makes sense with it. Yeah. And you feel it in your body then. So you bounce off your kitchen cabinet. What do they say? And then they might say something. You're like, oh, no, no. I still feel resistance to that. And it almost strengthens your conviction of my gut is going in that direction. Do you always trust yourself no matter. No, no. Do you feel like you trust yourself more now than ever?
- [37:07]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, I do. I do feel like I trust myself more. And I also think there's certain areas or lanes where I trust myself more than in others. So a lot less in relationship, romantic relationship. And I feel in, like, in the podcast, I think in this show, I think there have been times that I have trusted myself more and been lucky to have a great team who has gone along for the ride, which is great. But it's. You know, I want to make sure we go through this story because you have this incredible period where you and Paolo start to build. Build it. Cosmetics.
- [37:58]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [38:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming is brought to you by audible. You know that feeling when you can't decide what kind of romance you're in the mood For. Well, at Audible, you don't have to choose. Their romance collection has something for everyone.
- [38:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
Everyone.
- [38:12]
Monica Lewinsky
So maybe you're yearning for a royal romance with a duke. Or perhaps you're dreaming of a perfect enemies to lovers rom com. They've got your next adventure waiting in the city on the hockey field. Or if you're feeling really adventurous in entirely different realms, dive into hilarious modern rom coms from Lily Chu and Ali Hazelwood that'll have you laughing out loud on your commute. Or get swept away in an epic romantasy series from Sarah J. Maas and Rebecca. Yeah. Or lose yourself in timeless classics like Bridgerton and Outlander. So ready to fall in love? Your first great romance is free when you sign up for a 30 day trial at audible.com reclaiming because sometimes the greatest love story is the one you hear. That's audible.com reclaiming as I hear your story, you go through this period and you call it your season of setbacks. And for me it was really interesting. Cause it felt kind of akin to my dark decade where you are swimming against the tide and you're having to constantly bring yourself back to yourself, to your knowing, to your. I mean, can you talk to me a little about that period and how you, how you guys just how you kept going.
- [39:36]
Jamie Kern Lima
We, you know, on our honeymoon flight to South Africa, we wrote the business plan to it of Kind Cosmetics.
- [39:42]
Monica Lewinsky
So romantic.
- [39:43]
Jamie Kern Lima
So romantic. Oh my gosh. Anyone who has ever worked with a partner or family or friend can relate to how, how that is like the least romantic way to start a marriage. But we both got back and quit our jobs, poured every penny we had, which is not a lot, into this thing. And I was like, okay, we just have to figure out how to make a great product. If I can make a great product, it's going to be life changing. And sometimes when you don't know what you don't know, that is a gift.
- [40:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Yep.
- [40:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
Because like you just go head first. And so, you know, we did all this research on manufacturers and we got a great manufacturer. We did hundreds of iterations. We created this product. I was like, it's so good. It's, you know, it work, it works for me. It's going to be, you know, I just thought like, oh my gosh, like this is it. And I'll never forget, we start sending it to everyone. Sephora, Old Ulta, all the department stores. Qvc. Right. The live television shopping channel. Everyone, every single one of them said no. Every retailer. And this, now this. To put this in perspective, this Went on for years. So we had hundreds and hundreds of no's. Now in that process, I was like, okay. And by the way, what they would say to me, especially the department stores, because I would go in there with images of real women. Every skin tone, every, you know, skin texture problem. Like, I had every. Every age shape. And they'd always say these words, Monica. They would say, women will never buy makeup from images like this. You have to use images of unattainable aspiration. Right? Which they always use the words, meaning you can't even look like that because it's not real, right? It's like. And I would say, well, maybe women are sick and tired of buying from images that don't look like them. And it was like, no. And I remember going, okay, okay, this product's so good. We're just gonna build a direct to consumer company. Like, I had seen those companies that had just sold direct. I'm like, okay. But we had no money. So I was like, how are we gonna build a great website? We couldn't afford to hire anybody. And so my husband went to Barnes and Noble and he got this, that big yellow book called HTML for Dummies. He builds our entire first website. And I'll never forget the day it went live. I. I was, like, freaking out. I was like, this is gonna be huge. I was like a kid on Christmas morning. Like, this is gonna be big. This. And the day that I remember the moment the website goes live, and I'm like, waiting, right? And the entire first day goes by, no orders. The next day goes by, no orders, right? The day after, no orders. And finally, I did to him, what's so easy to do if you work with someone you love? I'm like, like, it's broken. You did it wrong. I'm like, there's no way that I'm like, this product is so good. There's no way you built this website, right? And we're just getting no orders. And then the days go on, the weeks go on, no orders. And the moment, I'll never forget this, the moment our first order came in, I was like, I knew it. I knew it. I was, like, running around our office, which was our living room, like, I knew it. I knew it. And he comes up to me and he goes, that was me. He goes, I place that one order to prove to you is not broken. I didn't do it wrong. And I'm like, oh, and this just, like, it was terrible. And it just went on and on. And I remember, you know, just sharing this for anyone right now who feels like they're not getting the traction on their dream. And people keep saying no and like, it's so unglamorous behind the scenes. But we. I started stalking everyone on LinkedIn. So I would go to like QVC, Sephora, Ulta. I would just. It didn't even matter what job they had. I would send them a sample, send samples, send samples, send samples. I remember we finally got a meeting at Sephora. I could barely afford the plane ticket to San Francisco. I was like, what am I gonna wear? And. But I was like, okay, this is it, this is it. And I remember flying there and I remember the doors opening to their high rise building on Market street and it's so beautiful in their offices and it felt like almost like Anne Hathaway and Delaware's Prada when you're like, where am I? Anyways, it was one of the most brutal meetings where I just like, I remember pouring my heart out. I remember the whole team was awesome. Them there and they were like, excited. They love entrepreneurs, but it was one person. The head buyer at the time or the buyer in makeup at the time. And I don't know if you've ever been in a meeting and you just feel like someone's like, not for you.
- [44:03]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, yeah.
- [44:04]
Jamie Kern Lima
And you're like, just trying so hard. And I remember she stopped the meeting and she's like. Because I was like, and. And people are spreading the word and they're. And at that point, you know, we were barely staying alive as a company because we were doing like one, one, maybe two orders a day on our website. That did work. And I was like, and people are spreading the word. And she's like, if people were talking about this product, I'd be hearing about it and I'm not. And it was a no. And I remember leaving the Sephora building just like, I remember, like tears. Like, I remember I was in the elevator, it was packed. And I was just trying so hard not to cry because it was like I didn't want to cry in front of Sephora people. I'm like, I want them to see me as a CEO and one day we're going to be in their stores. And I was like trying to hold back tears. And I was dreading having to call Paul and say, it's a no, because I didn't know how we were going to stay in business. And it just kept going. It was like everyone we sent samples to was a no. And I'll never forget one no in particular that ended up being. Well, two nos that were really big, life changing is that, you know, we'd sent hundreds of samples to qvc. And finally a guy named Alan Burke, who's the head of QVC Beauty, like a legend. I hear that he wants to have a couple call with me. And I'm like, like, he's built. Like, he built a multi billion dollar beauty division at qvc. And I'm like, if he wants a call with me, like, there's a way. This is it. This is it. I'm like, okay. If all these stores are saying no one will buy makeup from images of real women, I'm like, qvc's live television, you can't Photoshop it. Like, I'm gonna go on there and prove that. Like, I could. I could vision it. I'm gonna prove the product works. And after sending him so many samples, I get the call and he's like, hello, Jamie. Alan Burke with qvc. And I'm like, like, Alan, you know, it's so great to meet you. And he's like, listen, I wanted to call you directly and I wanted to tell you that we've received your samples, all of them. And I was like, okay. And he was like. And we've had a buyer meeting with the entire buying team. And he says to me, it's unanimous that you are not the right fit for QVC or our customers. And I remember just like I remember, first of all, tears just streaming down my face, hoping he couldn't tell I was crying. And I was like, oh, but, Alan, I am the right fit. And I start telling him all the reasons why I love qvc. And he thanked me and said, it's a no. And I'll never forget that day. Like, I remember crawling under my covers just, like, bawling, just, like, crying myself to sleep. And then waking up the next morning hoping it was a dream and then realizing it wasn't. And I remember just, like, getting so still and praying and being like, am I? Am I? Are we even supposed to do this? We have no money. We're teetering on bankruptcy. Everyone is saying no to us. This freaking sucks. We can barely pay our bills. And I'm like. And every time I would get still and I'd pray about it, I felt so strongly like I was supposed to keep going. Like, we're supposed to keep going. I'm like, God, am I hearing you wrong? Like, because no one else seems to agree with you, like, am I hearing this wrong? And it was like, I just think. I think the moments when we're getting told no by other people or in our own brain, our own self doubt. We're telling ourselves the strongest nos. If we get still, if we meditate, if we pray, we get a knowing. And so I, I was like, okay, I can't shake this knowing. We've got to keep going. And we did. And we kept going. We kept going, we kept going. We. One potential investor that I was like, okay, we're teetering on bankruptcy. This is going to be our saving grace. This is this big private equity company, very famous. Like they make all these unknown brands, big products we all shop for in stores and, and they gotten a hold of of our product, loved it. We started doing meetings with them. I'm like, oh my gosh, if they invest, they're going to help me get into all these stores that are saying no. They'll use their power. I had like this whole. I basically put this dude on a pedestal thinking like, okay, if they invest, it's going to be our saving grace. And we did all the meetings and we got to the final meeting. We had lawyers involved at that point because they weren't going to invest.
- [48:00]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh my gosh.
- [48:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
And my husband and I, Apollo, we flew up for this final meeting meeting and we presented the whole future product pipeline. The very end of this meeting, the head investor was about three feet from me. And he says to me, congratulations, this is a really great product. Like, you should be really, really proud. But it's a no. We're going to pass on investing in it. Cosmetics. And I was just like, okay, can you tell me why? You know, because feedback is usually a gift. And he got really still and he got really quiet and he just stood there and he says, after like a few second pause, it felt like an hour, he says, and he's three feet from me. My husband's right on the other side. And then his whole team is kind of right behind him. And he says, do you want me to be really honest with you? And I was like, yes, please. And he says, I just, just don't think women will buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight. And when he said those words, what was kind of wild is I never actually felt anger toward him, but it felt like literally, I remember feeling a lifetime of body doubt fled my whole body and self doubt. So it almost felt like I was staring my own fear straight in the eye. Right? But this is what I will never forget when he said those words. I just don't think I'm gonna buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your weight. Monica. I felt this feeling in my gut so strong that said, he's wrong. Like, I felt it, like. Like I could feel it right now, literally. That said he's wrong. And I didn't know how I was gonna prove it. He was looking like he was right, but, like, I felt it. And in the next, I didn't hear from him again for six more years. And in those six year windows, I would. I would hear those words and I would have to. I would imagine, imagine myself turning down the volume on his words and turning up the volume on that feeling, that knowing. And then I remember we were down under a thousand dollars in our bank account, literally. Which, by the way, was only a few weeks to be able to keep the lights on. Right. Because that was personal and company combined. Oh. Constantly scared. Like, I'm so embarrassed. I would go to the frozen yogurt place and I would get all the samples and then I would, like, you know, because we're just like, trying to stay alive and. And just like, you know, I remember all the years of, like, you know, when I would try to get $20 out of the ATM.
- [50:24]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah.
- [50:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
And if it happened, it was a miracle. And I would always remember those days. Remember those days. And I would hit no receipt. I couldn't look at the discount.
- [50:31]
Monica Lewinsky
No, no, no, no, no.
- [50:31]
Jamie Kern Lima
I couldn't handle it. I couldn't handle it.
- [50:33]
Monica Lewinsky
I would always think to myself, I'm like, okay, if I just were more responsible. And I knew what my, you know, did what my dad tried to teach me of keeping a ledger and knowing what's in my bank account. But instead it was ATM roulette was what I thought of it as. You know, will 20 bucks come out or not today?
- [50:51]
Jamie Kern Lima
You know? Yeah, it was like that. And it was just like.
- [50:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Okay, and let me interrupt for a second. Are you and Paulo, are you. Is he in the same place? You, like, are you guys on the same knowing path together? Are you just constantly boosting each other? Are you fighting? Are you like.
- [51:12]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah.
- [51:12]
Monica Lewinsky
Or all the things so hard.
- [51:15]
Jamie Kern Lima
It's funny, when we met in business school, I'll never forget, he would. In the building that the business school's in, the vending machine is $0.10 more expensive than if you go two blocks up the street. And he would go. For no reason, he'd go two blocks up the street to save 10 cents on his Diet Coke. And I used to think that was not so attractive. Not so attractive. But I'm telling you, it was the biggest blessing when we were struggling because it was like every penny. I appreciated that side of him. It was not easy. So many friends and family are like, okay, so you haven't paid. Cause it was three over three years before we could even afford to pay ourselves a penny. So you both quit your jobs that you loved and you haven't paid yourself for three years. I mean, they were legit worried.
- [52:05]
Monica Lewinsky
I would have been one of those people caring about you and probably worried.
- [52:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
And said, should you hang up your hat? Like, is this. Have you had enough no's to prove to you you're not supposed to be doing this? So fast forward. And we just kept going and we ended up getting. I was at a big convention in New York and QVC had this giant booth. I'd never met anyone in person. Not that long before I was told, no by Alan Burke, you're not the right fit. And I just prayed my butt off. And when you're not supposed to leave your booth, you're demonstrating products and your hope is to win an award or have a buyer discover you. You're not supposed to leave your three foot booth. And there was 6,000 women there. Every brand in the world puts their products, they've launched that year there. So there's like all the most incredible brands. And there's it Cosmetics, which no one had really heard of. And I remember beelining over to the QVC booth and going up to a buyer and just like pouring my heart out. I was like, my name is Jamie Kern Lima, and I started a company called it Cosmetics. I remember her name was Michelle and she's like, oh, I have your samples. I'm like, yeah, well, if you've tried them, they're really good. They're life changing. I just remember, like, I remember sweat dripping down my leg. And I remember just like pouring out whatever was in me. And she gave me her card and she said, let's have a meeting. And so we flew up to Westchester, Pennsylvania, met with qvc, got our very first yes. Got a very first yes. Now, what that meant. Okay. And this is. This is crazy. It was probably one of the greatest life lessons, business lessons I've ever learned. But it meant we got the yes meant we got one shot to go live on QVC for 10 minutes and either hit their sales goal or not come back. I was like, okay, okay. And then I learned we had to sell over 6,000 units because every time you're on QVC, you're up against the same sales numbers. Apple, iPhone can do or anyone else. Oh my gosh, it's the big leagues, right? And the. And they're like, okay. I learned we'd have to sell over 6,000 units in a 10 minute window to hit their sales goal. Now again, we're doing one to two orders on our website a day. That does work. And I'm just like, okay. And then I learned, Monica, it was a consignment offer. And what that meant was somehow we had to figure out how to pay for manufacture. All 6,000 units ship in, pass regulatory compliance, QC compliance, all this stuff I won't bore you everyone with. But it's so much. And then, and then once that's all done, I go live on TV to 100 million homes. And if it's a consignment offer, so if it doesn't sell, we take it all back and we're not paid.
- [54:41]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my God.
- [54:42]
Jamie Kern Lima
So you should never say yes to that if you can't afford it. But at that point, we were so desperate right now we had no money. So we go out trying to get SBA loans to cover the manufacturer costs. 22 banks said no and they should have. The 23rd bank, which was California bank and Trust, gave us an SBA loan to cover the purchase order. And a little bit more, we went all in. And that little bit more. And this was a big thing. That little bit more we took and we hired third party consultants. And they help like all kinds of people sell their products and in stores and on television. And they are incredible and they help a lot of people. And here was the problem that I found myself in. They all said the same thing to me. They're like, okay, you've got one shot. And here's the thing. If you're gonna actually hit the sales goal on qvc, which is so hard to do, here's what you need to do. And they would tell me, you need to produce your segment this way and put these type of models in the chair. So demonstrate your product. All same skin tone, look like they're 12, have no skin issues. And I'm like, okay, I get that that's what sells in magazines and blah, blah. I'm like, but what if. I'm like, what if we go on air and I have like a woman in her 70s or 80s, and I have another, you know, someone with hyperpigmentation and someone who's dealing with acne and, you know, every age and shape and size and skin tone. What if I take my own makeup off on live TV and I show my bright Red, bumpy skin. And I prove the product works. And they were mortified. Like, literally mortified. And here's the thing. They wanted to win, right? Just like the woman with your TED Talks, she wanted you to win. And I was so stressed out because I was like, what are we going to do? And I remember having a moment where I'm like, okay, maybe I should do it their way. Maybe I should listen to these. Consult these third party consultants. I'll put the type of models they're saying to use, and maybe then it'll work and I won't go bankrupt. And then I can try it my way. And I remember sobbing my eyes out, being like, God, this feels so heavy. I feel like the next time I walk in that door in the QVC building, I'm either gonna come out bankrupt.
- [56:48]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, my gosh.
- [56:48]
Jamie Kern Lima
Or I'm gonna come out with my whole life changed. And I wasn't scared for television. I've done that, my career. But it was the weight of, like, this decision. And I remember thinking, okay, should I do it their way? And then I remember, Monica, these words came to me that. Cause I know you cannot fake authenticity. You cannot. People are smart. And you cannot.
- [57:07]
Monica Lewinsky
You.
- [57:08]
Jamie Kern Lima
You cannot. The second we show up as our representative and try to be someone who we aren't, we create this barrier of disconnection where people can't connect to us. And I remember this feeling or these words came to me that while authenticity alone doesn't automatically guarantee success, inauthenticity guarantees failure. And I just felt that. And I was like, okay, I know what I have to do. And I was scared shitless. And I remember walking into the KVC building. Cause I was like, we've got one shot. Like. So I walk in, I had on double Spanx. Two pairs of Spanx. Not. I did not care how I looked. I was sweating so much.
- [57:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, that would be me. I'm such a flop sweater. Oh, my gosh.
- [57:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
Are you.
- [57:47]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh, yeah. That's why it's so cold in here.
- [57:49]
Jamie Kern Lima
I love. I love. I know. I'm not sweating at all. I love it. I was like, I can't sweat through my dress on national tv. I was so stressed out that I was sweating so much. So I had double Spanx trying to not sweat through the dress. I was walk in. I'm about to go out in the studio. And I learn, right before going live to 100 million homes, I learn, okay, you're not guaranteed your 10 minutes. What if you. So they know by the second. If you're hitting numbers or not. So you can go all of a sudden live to 100 million homes. And you're like a minute or two into your presentation and you think you still have eight minutes. Oh, but all of a sudden, if you're not hitting numbers, the clock, there's a clock on the floor, your 10 minutes, your clock, you think you have eight minutes left, your clock jumps to one minute and you know you're done. So I learned that. And I, I was like, oh, like I don't know that I've ever. This is one of the moments I've prayed harder than ever. I remember walking out to set, literally shaking. You go out, you're in the studio and there's cameras, and then you're there with the host. And the host was amazing, thank God. And I remember the moment the bright red on air light comes on.
- [58:56]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh my gosh.
- [58:56]
Jamie Kern Lima
And the clock was like 9:59, 958. Okay, we're now live. And I remember glancing over to my models in the chairs. Every age, every shape, every size, every skin tone, every skin challenge. I remember the moment. So. So we're live. And I had practiced this demonstration on my wrist that was so good. I put our concealer and I put the top two department store concealers. And what I do is I would bend my wrist back and theirs would start to crease.
- [59:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Ours did it.
- [59:27]
Jamie Kern Lima
That's big. The only problem was I'd only like practiced it in my bathroom mirror a million times. Now I'm live in front of 100 million homes. I start trying to do this demonstration and my hand is shaking so much cause I'm so stressed out. The host grabs my hand, shoves it under the podium. She's like, thank you, sugar. And she took over. And I remember the moment my bright red bare face before shot comes up on national tv. And I remember walking over to the models and literally every age and shape and size and skin tone, I remember calling them beautiful and meaning it viscerally in every ounce of my being. And I remember we were a few minutes in and I didn't know how we were doing, but I knew we weren't cut yet. I was like, okay, okay. And we kept going and going. And I remember it got down to like the minute. There's a minute left. And the host says, the deep shade's almost gone. The tan shade's almost sold out. And literally right at the 10 minute mark, this giant sold out sign comes up across the screen.
- [60:25]
Monica Lewinsky
Oh my.
- [60:26]
Jamie Kern Lima
I start crying on national television. And they cut from me and went to, like, Dyson vacuum or something.
- [60:32]
Monica Lewinsky
Right, right.
- [60:33]
Jamie Kern Lima
And I remember I was like. And my best friend of 25 years, we met when we were waitressing. She was one of the models. She has hyperpigmentation. She was modeling. And she starts sobbing. And I remember my Impala comes running through the double doors of the studio. And I just remember his face. And I'm like, sobbing. And I'm like, real women have spoken. And I was like, I think he's gonna come hug me. And you know, Paula, I think he's gonna come hug me. He comes up to me and he looks at me and he puts both fists in the air. And he's like, we're not going bankrupt. And I'm like. And it was wild, that one airing. Back to our story of, like, trusting ourselves. That one airing turned into five that year, 101 the next year. Then we started doing 200, 250 live shows a year on KVC.
- [61:23]
Monica Lewinsky
250. I mean, that's almost every day after year. I mean, that's more than every other day.
- [61:29]
Jamie Kern Lima
Wow. Yeah. We built what became the biggest beauty brand in QVC's history.
- [61:33]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [61:34]
Jamie Kern Lima
I only share that because years they said no. And remember, Alan Burke said no, and you're not the right fit for qvc. He became a great mentor and friend he is to this day. And he was, like, such a champion. And what's wild, Monica? This is. This is. This is how life works. I believe this when we trust ourselves. And he. So shortly after we launched, he ended up retiring. He had been there for decades at qvc. He retired. When he retired, we hired him in a paid position on our advisory board. So the guy that rejected me was now working for me.
- [62:13]
Monica Lewinsky
How did you take whatever feelings you had, like, here's Alan Burke instance, and it sounds like there are many because you ended up being in all of the stores that had turned you down.
- [62:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
Right.
- [62:26]
Monica Lewinsky
So what was that? How did you find. How did you push aside any anger or resentment to sort of see the value in that person there?
- [62:38]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes. That's so good. Because so often when we are rejected or someone tells us no or they decline, or our book or whatever it might be, it feels personal. Yeah. Sometimes it is personal. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it is personal. And, you know, all the times I felt. And by the way. So, yes, after we launched on qvc, after we grew, after all the things, we got, yeses. And the first yes was from Ulta Beauty. And they were freaking phenomenal. And their team just went all in. They believed in what we were doing. Eventually, all the department stores, all of everyone, eventually said yes. And. And here's. Here's what I. Why I believe that happened. You know, we didn't get into Sephora for six more years, even after we were number one qvc. And at that point, I was like, but now, you know, we're gonna make you money. Like, how is it still a no? Like, how is it? And sometimes you just never know why. And it is so easy to take it personal. And even when it is, often, often it isn't. We just think it is, but it doesn't serve us right. And so a lot of moments, I would go to Paulo and I would just, like, be so upset and hurt and tell him all the reasons why. I know this is personal, but how I played it from a business perspective was much more like, okay, I am going to, in every ounce of my being, respond to that rejection as if I am fully convinced it will be a yes and we will be in their stores. And so one thing I did was like. I was like, I can't take this personally in the business world, I cannot. I cannot do it. And every single. No. Every single rejection, even if in closed doors, when I cried Apollo, I felt it was personal. The way I handled it and responded was, you know, I don't know if you call it a game of chess or what is the best highest good for? My mission with wanting this company to be huge, and the best highest good and my mission for wanting to touch as many people as possible is to do the smartest thing possible, which is to not take this personal. And you know what? You know, I know. You know, you know this. In my friendship circle, I have friends that are atheists. I have friends that have all different faiths, no faith, all of it. I love them with my full heart. For me, every day, Monica, I pray God will bring the right people in my life and have the wrong ones leave. I pray he opens the right doors and closes the wrong doors. And I actually believe this to my core. I believe. Believe that God will block our value from people who are not assigned to our destiny. So for me, I've learned how to reframe every rejection in a way where I'm like, okay, you know what? I'm going to trust my faith. I'm going to trust that, you know, God's blocking my value from that person for right now, for whatever reason, I'm not supposed to get sucked into that particular friend group or I'm not. Whatever it is I got to trust, because I can't let it take me down. I can't let it let me lower my own vibration. Right? Because we become what we believe we're worthy of.
- [65:38]
Monica Lewinsky
Well, I mean, this is just such an incredible story, and I'm so in awe of how you're able to lose the moment of getting the yes.
- [65:53]
Jamie Kern Lima
And you.
- [65:54]
Monica Lewinsky
You would just find your way back to the positivity. I know people have said to me, I don't know how you got through it. And I. And I look at you, and I'm like, I don't know how you got through it. And it just. I'm.
- [66:06]
Jamie Kern Lima
I look at you, I look at you with just celebration, but it's because everyone needs to know how to get through it. You know, we all have our different versions of how do we get through it? And, you know, I know I've said this to you before, but, you know, you are life changing for so many people, right? You are. You are. And how do I get through this thing? And I hope my story in some small way is that, you know, today, for someone who's maybe just like, gosh, I really felt like I wasn't gonna make it. I felt like, why do I believe in my art so much, but no one's buying it? Or I believe in my message so much, but we don't got any likes on Instagram. You know, I believe in my book so much, but every publisher's rejected. Or I believe I have so much love to give. Why does everyone on this dating app suck? We all. I think what's so beautiful about reclaiming about your show and about the conversations you're having is that we need to hear these from each other so that we all feel less alone and more enough and know it's not just us.
- [67:10]
Monica Lewinsky
Right. There's this quote, and it just hit me and some of the producers, like, it just hit us in this really deep way, and it is. I wanted to be loved more than I wanted to be me.
- [67:25]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yes. Yes.
- [67:26]
Monica Lewinsky
Can you just, like, sort of talk to me about where in this whole process were you when you had this, I don't know, saying, uttering, epiphany realization, where were you you in this journey? What was going on? How did that shift?
- [67:46]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah. So for most of my life, I thought I needed to achieve enough to be enough, or I needed to make enough people happy or I need. I was such a people pleaser. Like, I needed to just make sure everyone was happy in the room. And if someone wasn't happy, I Took it personal, especially starting college age. Just thought, oh, why don't I feel like I'm enough inside? I think that once I, you know, am working in television news, then I will. But then I worked so hard to get that dream job. I still feel like something was missing. I was like, okay. Then I launched the company and I think like once I do this, once the company gets to this level or once I, it was always about that next thing and I didn't understand. And the moment, that of, of life changing epiphany happened to me later in life and I never understood that There's a huge difference between things that build self confidence and things that build self worth. And they're very different for anyone who thought when I finally get that white picket fence or I have the 2.5 kids or I find the partner or I get that job or I get my six pack abs or I hit the goal weight or I get the dream car or I get the number in my bank account, when I finally get that thing, then I'm going to feel enough, then I'm going to feel happy, then I'm going to feel feel fulfilled. And so many of us, what happens is we work so hard for one of those things and maybe it's a promotion at work or it's a certain whatever it is, we get the thing and we feel good for a minute and then we're like, huh, this, this, is this. I still don't feel enough. I just need to raise the bar. It needs to be more. It's the next thing. It's the this, it's the that. And we spend our whole life doing that. And what I've learned is all of those things build self confidence. And self confidence is very different than self, self worth. Self confidence is our, you know, our willingness to try and go for it, how we assess ourselves compared to everyone else. You know, how we evaluate our skills and abilities. Our, our self confidence can rise or fall if we're winning or losing. You know, they do studies that the boxer who wins the fight automatically 30% more confident. Right. Our confidence fluctuates, but it's based on external things and it's very different than our self worth. Our self self worth is the belief that we are fundamentally worthy of love and belonging exactly as we are. So self confidence is our skills and abilities. Self worth is our identity. And most of us will just keep building self confidence and it's why we can see somebody who had anyone can relate to this, you know, someone in your life, you're like, she's amazing. She's kind and generous and smart and talented and be. Why is she with that dude that totally mistreats her? Yeah. It's because we can do all the things that build self confidence. But if underneath it, we do not have self worth, our self worth in our life will become our ceiling. And what happens is if we struggle with self worth under everything else, we can achieve, achieve, achieve, achieve. But our level of fulfillment will always hit the ceiling of our self worth. And we'll sabotage stuff in our life, life we don't feel we're worthy of. Right. So, Monica, this is probably gonna sound crazy, but I'm gonna share it. Okay. I believe I say this in my book worthy and, and, and why I wrote the whole book worthy is because I. I believe we don't become what we want. We become what we believe we're worthy of. And I was at this moment where, you know, it Cosmetics was wild, by the way. The. The day l' Oreal paid. So l' Oreal end up buying the company, right? They cash. Cash. $1.2 billion cash. Which by the heard from that investor in six years, that potential investor who said, women won't buy makeup from someone who looks like you with your body and your ears.
- [71:34]
Monica Lewinsky
I hope you said fuck you.
- [71:35]
Jamie Kern Lima
I know, right? That's what I wanted to say. Fuck you. But he says to me, you know, congratulations on the l' Oreal deal. I was wrong. And it felt to me like that moment in Pretty Woman where they wouldn't help her in the store. And then I wanted to say to him, big mistake. Like huge. Huge. I didn't. I kept it classy. I wouldn't have wanted to be him. And, and here's the thing, here's the thing back to like, I think how God will block our value from people. Had he invested in us, I'd probably be on some crazy diet. I probably would have not trusted my gut on the type of, you know, creative decisions I made with the company. We probably never would have built a billion dollar company. So I was like, thank God he didn't believe in me. But anyhow, so fast forward. I'm in this place in my life where, wow, we sold the company for a billion dollars. Wow. I'm so passionate about our mission. I'm helping so many women. Everything on the. I had a lot of self confidence, okay? But deep down inside, I still didn't feel like I was enough. And I didn't truly understand the difference yet. And there was one moment that was defining for me, when you ask, like, was there a moment where this shifted since the time I was a little girl that I mentioned thinking, one day I'll meet Oprah? All of a sudden my assistant wrote a letter. I didn't know she wrote the letter. It's a long story. It's a one in a billion thing that happens. And I meet Oprah at her in her green room. She invites me to a lunch at her house. I now find myself. Okay, so I wanna put this in perspective for anyone listening because we all have versions of this in our own life. I was very confident things were really going well for me in my business and my mission, you know, but again, I didn't have strong self worth and I didn't know the difference. So I'm now at Oprah's house. Okay. We have a three hour lunch, just me and her. I'm like, what in the world is happening? I'm like, you know, I'm like. And I'm very introverted in real life. And I was like talking and it was. So at the very end of the lunch, Monica, she hands me her cell phone number and she says, you can call me anytime. Call me anytime. I'm like, okay. And I got. And I leave. I did not call her for four years.
- [73:44]
Monica Lewinsky
Wow.
- [73:45]
Jamie Kern Lima
Okay. In that four year window, I told myself stories like, oh, I just need to wait for the perfect thing to say, then I'm gonna call her. Or oh, like I bet everyone wants something from her. Like, I'm gonna prove to her I don't need anything. Like, I don't need a new car.
- [73:58]
Monica Lewinsky
The things Jimmy Kur Lima, look under your seat.
- [74:01]
Jamie Kern Lima
Oh my gosh. And I was like. And then four years later, it hits me one day. The reason I didn't call her is because deep down inside, I did not believe I was worthy of being her friend. Now that is a lie. I am a kickass friend.
- [74:17]
Monica Lewinsky
Yes, you are.
- [74:18]
Jamie Kern Lima
And so I was like. And I knew it and I felt it. Like, that is not true. But that is why I haven't called her. That was the, the moment I literally was like, turn down the volume on my self doubt and like, turn the volume on that knowing. Our knowing knows every single one of us is fully worthy exactly as we are. I don't care what your past mistakes are. I don't care what you've succeeded or failed at. It does not matter. You are innately worthy exactly as you are. That was the moment I picked up the phone and called her after four years. Right? And so that was the moment I started this obsession with how do I actually build self worth with understanding. Self worth is so different than self. And so self worth, I think, is everything.
- [74:56]
Monica Lewinsky
The question I ask everyone at the end is if there's something that you're working on reclaiming right now could be part of your identity or aspect of your life.
- [75:09]
Jamie Kern Lima
Yeah, I think I'm on a constant reclaiming journey now, of course, not being scared of my own light or how bright it can be. I actually think, like, we all have. I believe every one of us has callings on our life and destiny that we can fulfill and things that we're here to do and like the, you know, Oprah always calls it the fullest, highest expression of who we are. And I don't think I'm there yet. I think I have to embrace my light even more than I do. And I think navigating that and remembering that no one else should ever, ever tempt us to dim our own light. I don't want to arrive at the end of my life one day, hopefully, God willing, many, many decades. And I don't want to look back and go, oh, I kind of played it safe, or, oh, I lived as part of who I am, but not all of who I am. I feel like, like I'm still in many ways reclaiming my self worth. Even though, like, I spend half my life helping other people build their self worth right now. Like, that's what I focus on. And I'm also in that journey of constantly doing that, of constantly. Because I know in my soul I'm fully enough. I know you're fully enough. I know all of us are. And I think reclaiming the truth and just like fully embracing it is what I'm really working, working on. Reclaiming right now and reclaiming fun, by the way. Yeah. And you bring more fun in my life, by the way.
- [76:42]
Monica Lewinsky
Ditto.
- [76:42]
Jamie Kern Lima
So I'm grateful for that.
- [76:43]
Monica Lewinsky
Yeah. Thank you so much, Jamie. It's amazing.
- [76:47]
Jamie Kern Lima
Thank you so much.
- [76:50]
Monica Lewinsky
Reclaiming with Monica Klewinski is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music suit is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis for Wondery. Eliza Mills is the development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candice Manriquez Wren and Emily Feldbrake. And executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.