Jameela Jamil

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky

Guest: Jameela Jamil

Release Date: February 3, 2026
Host: Monica Lewinsky
Episode Theme:
Exploring how Jameela Jamil has reclaimed her sense of self, pleasure, relationships, and body image—while interrogating patriarchal and consumerist forces that shape women’s lives. The episode investigates living authentically, communal living, the value of pleasure, the dangers of obedience, healing from trauma, and how to build an “inner bunker” that can’t be taken away.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Redefining Pleasure and the War on Women's Joy (00:06, 17:22)

• Jameela’s Philosophy:
  Jameela opens the episode with a bold stance: prioritizing her own happiness and pleasure above all else. She laments how society treats women's pleasure as a privilege, not a right, referencing how even chocolate adverts sensationalize small joys.

  “I care about nothing more than my happiness. I care about nothing more than pleasure. And I feel as though there's been such a war on women's pleasure in particular. It's considered this privilege, not a right.” (00:06, Jameela)

• What is Pleasure?:
  For Jameela, pleasure is both peace and tangible joy:

  “Ultimately, peace is pleasurable, but also delicious food, treating my body kindly, not denying myself, not starving, not masking obedience as discipline…belly laughing every single day…orgasms, seeing beautiful things.” (17:22, Jameela)

• Context of Advocacy & Sacrifice:
  Monica reflects on the challenge of orienting towards pleasure in a world filled with suffering, asking if that’s selfish. Jameela counters that it's unsustainable to give without balance, saying:

  “Otherwise what good are you to anyone when you're just a husk? And women in particular are expected only to withdraw. There is no talk of deposit…” (21:50, Jameela)

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2. Friendship, Community, and Communal Living (02:36, 03:10)

• Jameela’s “Jamilville” Vision:
  Jameela shares her dream for modern communal living—a self-sufficient chosen “village” where people support each other while maintaining independence.

  “We’re going to buy land together and actually do it properly as like a commune. That I’m going to call Jamilville because I think it sounds funny.” (02:53, Jameela)

• Loneliness as an Epidemic:
  She critiques modern Western isolation:

  “We don't have villages anymore, especially not in the West ... This coddling, isolated...disappearing off, away from all of your friends and your community which then means that you expect everything out of one partner, I think is crippling relationships and I think it's crippling society.” (03:10–04:16, Jameela)

• Women’s Friendships as Lifelines:
  Jameela argues that friendship—not romantic relationships—has been her most stable, vital foundation:

  “Relationships can come and go...whereas your friends largely don’t. So, I think friendships are far more important to invest in than romantic relationships even...Love is very, very...It’s not guaranteed. It’s transient.” (05:14, Jameela)

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3. Patriarchy, Capitalism, and Emotional Disconnect (09:49, 12:07)

• Patriarchy Hurts Everyone:
  Jameela dives into how patriarchal systems rob both men and women of pleasure, meaning, and connectedness:

  “Men have been misguided by patriarchy to think there is no reason to live other than you work and then you raise a family, even if you don't really spend much time raising that family. …I don’t think men have really been instilled with much meaning by patriarchy.” (09:49, Jameela)

• Consumer Culture and Depression:
  She proposes that a capitalist push towards isolation is designed to fuel consumption by keeping people dissatisfied:

  “We are a culture that deliberately pushes isolation because isolation makes you more likely to be depressed and being more depressed makes you more likely to consume....I am...My bank account tells me how happy I am.” (09:49–11:49, Jameela)

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4. Purpose, Career, and Identity (14:45, 15:50)

• US Work Identities:
  Monica and Jameela discuss America’s obsession with work as core identity—and what happens if AI and technology upend that:

  "When you take that [work] away from people and you just pull the rug from under their feet, they haven't developed their hobbies, they haven't had time to develop their hobbies…We had personalities and identities and passions." (15:09, Jameela)

• Distancing from “Career as Identity”:
  Jameela shares her intentional move to separate her sense of self from her job:

  “I've been very, very focused in what the next chapter of my life looks like. And it's very much so not…You know, I was coming up through the girl boss era and being turned into the face of a girl boss era whilst being someone who really hates working…” (15:50, Jameela)

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5. Reframing Self-Care and Body Image (23:06, 47:49)

• Critiquing Wellness Culture:
  Both speakers express frustration that “wellness” is co-opted by commerce and often ignores true self-investment:

  “Even wellness culture is ultimately around making ourselves us look less tired than we actually are...So little of what is actually invested in women is about our peace and our joy and our happiness and our pleasure.” (21:50, Jameela)

• From Obedience to Rebellion (Anorexia):
  Jameela redefines her experience with anorexia as fundamentally rooted in obedience—not simply control:

  “For me, it was about obedience. It was about knowing that I'm so different in so many other ways. So perhaps if I could comply in this one way, then people would…be nicer to me…” (47:49, Jameela)

• Cycle of Beauty Standards:
  She observes how women's bodies are subject to ever-changing, often unattainable trends—usually to serve a male gaze:

  “There are men who want to have sex with teenagers who have created a beauty standard that normalizes their desire...by making us all try to look like teenagers. And that is deeply unacceptable to me.” (51:38–53:29, Jameela)

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6. Healing, Acceptance, and Building an “Inner Bunker” (38:11, 62:44)

• Self-Acceptance is Rebellion:
  Jameela connects her sense of comfort to letting go of chasing approval and striving for palatability:

  “I'm not confident in all of the ways. I just don't believe that it is my job to be perfect...Some people like, you know, my vibe, and some people don't. …really, what it was for me…was realizing how many people I dislike. And when you realize how many people you find boring…then I know I'm doing a good job.” (35:39–38:11, Jameela)

• Pleasure, Spite, and Motivations:
  She describes spite as a source of motivation to reject societal pressures:

  “Is there anything more pleasurable than having just a little, little burst of spite? …Spite, knowing that...there are people who make tens and tens and tens of billions, if not trillions of dollars off of my self-hatred…makes me want to spite them and not give in.” (41:02, Jameela)

• Building the Inner Bunker:
  Both Monica and Jameela discuss being “unstable” after public shaming, and choosing to build a life—and inner world—that can't be taken:

  “You have to actually actively build a world that nobody can take from you...If you can just protect your mind and your body…those suddenly came into focus as the two most important things that I will ever have.” (61:02, Jameela) “Build your bunker. Every woman here, build your bunker. Because then your partner leaving you, this happening, losing your job…no one can destabilize me from that. I like myself enough that everyone can hate me now and I've still got my own back.” (63:48, Jameela)

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7. The Power and Limits of Regret, Apology, and Feminine Energy (68:34, 72:15)

• Speaking from the Scar, Not the Wound:
  Jameela notes her growth from early rage to more nuanced advocacy:

  “I was speaking from a very unhealed place and I've since gone on to heal that place in me so that I can actually meet people where they're at...I'm angry with the construct of patriarchy. I'm not angry with each individual man…” (68:49, Jameela)

• Accountability and Growth:
  Both stress that regret and apologies are not weaknesses but tools for evolution:

  “I also don't fear regret. I think it's…very important that we don't fear accountability because if we fear accountability, we can't actually instigate change.” (71:35–72:15, Jameela)

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8. Calling Men Up, Not Out (25:13, 30:36)

• A Compassionate, Collaborative Approach:
  Jameela urges men and women to work together against patriarchy, which she sees as damaging to all:

  “It's not worthwhile calling [men] in. I'm calling men up because I believe in men…I want to present more positive male role models...” (30:36, Jameela)

• Feminine vs. Masculine Energy:
  She suggests true revolutionary men embrace their softer, more “feminine” traits, listing figures like Mark Ruffalo, Pedro Pascal, and Barack Obama as examples (32:39–33:13).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I'm not trying to hang on to my youth. I'm trying to launch my crone years as early as possible and just get as far away from youth as possible.” (02:09, Jameela)
• "We are here to come as often as possible. And I think if we were doing so, there would be far less war and far less problems and less violence." (18:55, Jameela)
• "I run on spite." (40:58, Jameela)
• "I obsessively think about my 85 year old self and I think about my deathbed and that encourages me and motivates me to make moments last and to do what she would wish I did." (44:17, Jameela)
• "I'm not about calling men out. I'm also, I don't think it's worthwhile calling them in. I'm calling men up because I believe in men." (30:36, Jameela)
• Monica on acceptance:
  “For me, that's just the biggest gift of my 50s has been acceptance of this is where my life is. I've had to accept I have a big life. Every time I try to make my life small, the universe was like, that's not what's happening here.” (65:38, Monica)
• Jameela’s closing reflection:
  "I'm reclaiming my time. I've spent so much of it. I've wasted so much of it on such meaningless nonsense. And I'm reclaiming my time and using it very, very thoughtfully, very wisely." (73:16, Jameela)

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Important Timestamps

• Prioritizing pleasure & critiquing the war on women’s joy: 00:06, 17:22
• Communal living & friendship over romance: 02:36, 05:14
• Patriarchy’s harms and capitalist isolation: 09:49–12:07
• Work and purpose in an AI age: 14:45–15:50
• Reframing wellness & body image: 21:50–23:06, 47:49
• Why self-acceptance is key to rebellion: 35:39–38:11
• Building an “inner bunker” after public trauma: 61:02–62:44
• "Calling Men Up," not in or out: 30:36
• Speaking from the scar, not the wound: 68:34–68:49
• Reclaiming her time: 73:16

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Tone & Atmosphere

Conversational, deeply candid, and sharply witty throughout. Jameela brings a blend of radical honesty, humor (“I run on spite”), and empathy for both women and men. Monica grounds the dialogue in her own reflective experience, creating a space that’s both vulnerable and affirming.

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For New Listeners: Why This Episode Matters

This episode offers a powerful road map for reclaiming agency, whether from trauma, toxic culture, or self-imposed standards. It’s especially resonant for anyone wrestling with body image, people-pleasing, perfectionism, burnout, or navigating public scrutiny. Jameela’s approach—equal parts compassionate, rebellious, and strategic—offers a series of practical, mind-opening frameworks for living more joyously and authentically, no matter your history.

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Transcript

[A]

I really enjoy the job that I have the privilege of doing, but I also have a tremendous balance. And I care about nothing more than my happiness. I care about nothing more than pleasure. And I feel as though there's been such a war on women's pleasure in particular. It's considered this privilege, not a right. You know, that's why in the chocolate adverts from when we were growing up, the woman has, like, an orgasm from eating a bite of chocolate because she can't believe. Yeah. But she can't believe. She's like, oh, something nice for the day. Yeah.

[B]

Shamila Jamil.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Welcome to Reclaiming.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah. It's so nice to meet you. I was. When I was thinking about, like, oh, we've been connected on social media, but we haven't actually met.

[A]

Yeah. It was years and years ago. Right. I think we've messaged.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Each other, like, pre pandemic, maybe.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure it was. Yeah, absolutely. And then you've got. We have mutual friends, but in Beanie Feldstein.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And Scarlet Curtis.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So.

[B]

Yeah, me too. Me too. Well, I mean, I. I had the. You can correct me if I'm wrong, and we can always cut it. I had the impression you guys were like a little group. No, no.

[A]

Okay. No, no, no. Scarlett and I have been friends for a really long time, since she was 14. And then I met Beanie because we did a movie together. Okay.

[B]

Because Scarlett and Beanie are close.

[A]

Very. Yeah.

[B]

Right. So I just made the assumption that. That you guys were.

[A]

Yeah, no, they're. They're like a decade younger than me, so I'm just like. I'm more of a. I'm the Internet's drunk aunt, and I am that in real life as well.

[B]

Did you give yourself that name or did somebody. I did.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's important just to come out front with how you wish to brand yourself. And I feel as though that felt like a very safe space for me. It felt like something I could live.

[B]

Up to and also unique. I don't think anybody else has that.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

Moniker.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to hang on to my youth. I'm trying to launch my crone years as early as possible and just get as far away from youth as possible. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, there's so much to talk to you about. And I. You know, I was thinking about when Julia Fox was on, she was talking a little about how she lives with friends of hers and her son, but she didn't talk about it necessarily as this, like communal living.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which I. I think is what you're.

[A]

Doing, I was doing for the last 10 years, we've taken a kind of brief respite, but the plan is to get back to communal living as fast as possible. Everyone's just working out their logistics and saving up for a home. And we're going to buy land together and actually do it properly as like a commune.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That I'm going to call Jamilville because I'm a maniac, because I think it sounds funny.

[B]

Yeah, but what does that actually look like?

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

Well, in terms of how many people are you. Is that. Are you always eating dinner together?

[A]

It was five. It will be probably more like 20, I imagine, or so. And I don't plan on us, you know, we're not all going to be fucking or anything. It's not going to be a cult. It's just going to be more like everyone being. Being near each other, helping tend to the land together, helping build up a community, making ourselves somewhat independent and. And having one another nearby, you know, really like being able to actually love thy neighbor and, and being able to fraternize if and when we feel like it, but. But mostly just having a village, you know, we don't have villages anymore, especially not in the West. And I grew up largely in Spain in my childhood. And the way they raised children there is completely different. The way that they live is completely different, like 20 minutes walking distance from each other. And the teenagers help with the kids, and that's very normalized. And children don't go to bed at 6 or 7, and the parents don't stop their lives at 7pm there's wine in the children's parks for the parents to be able to enjoy socializing. The children go to sleep when, you.

[B]

Know, it helps solve shit in our.

[A]

Country, I'm telling you. And also I would go to bed in whatever restaurant my parents were eating. So you'd fall asleep on the chair or on their lap or on the floor, you know, whatever you have to do. And it's just normal. Normal to have children just flopped all over the place. And so therefore you learn how to act in a restaurant by the time you're two years old, you know how to behave this coddling, isolated, spousal, disappearing off, away from all of your friends in your community, which then means that you expect everything out of one partner, I think is crippling relationships and I think it's crippling society. It's really suffocating it's interesting.

[B]

Esther Perel had a great line about. I won't quote it exactly, but from one of her TED talks where she was saying how that we look to our partners to be everything, that they're somehow supposed to know everything about us and we're supposed to still be mysterious, you know, and that. That's actually not possible.

[A]

No, it's not possible and it's not healthy and it's quite boring. And I think it makes people grow sick of each other. I think it's really important that my partner. I've been with my boyfriend for 11 years, that we have very separate interests. We actually actively glaze over over certain things that the other one is interested in. And then there's someone else to go and enjoy that thing with and indulge in that thing with, you know, so you get a bit of space, not just physically, but also mentally and emotionally. I think it would be creepy to expect everything I get, especially from my girlfriends, to find that in just one person, my friendships are paramount to my existence. And I never ever let that slip when I started entering into a serious relationship. Because I think it's imperative you hang on to that. Relationships can come and go and they are also dependent on someone wanting to see your genitals, whereas your friends largely don't. And so therefore you have friendship that is only dependent on your character, not your ability to be attractive to another person. Yeah. So I think friendships are far more important to invest in than romantic relationships even. That is just my personal opinion. You should invest in both. But your friendship should not be going by the wayside for love. Because love is very, very. It's. It's not guaranteed. It's transient.

[B]

Well, I also, I think too there's. I mean. Well, actually I should ask you, have you always felt that way?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Because I think for me, I think that I. I naively really thought and wanted a kind of partner husband who you pour into. That would be my best friend, that would, you know, be that everything. And at 52 and not having been married and having these incredible intimate relationships with my friends, you know, and that emotional intimacy I think also that you're talking about is so fulfilling that I see what you're saying. But I didn't get that when I was younger.

[A]

Well, we're not conditioned to. We're conditioned to pour everything into your. Your husband and then your children and that's it. And then maybe after that, your parents, because knows your brothers aren't expected to do it. So as a woman you are just expected to pour outwards. And when you pour outwards towards girlfriends, you are more likely to get something back. And I love my boyfriend and he is my best friend, but there is a. There's a specific magical bond that women have with each other that I'm so sad that so many men in the west in particular don't have. I don't think it's men worldwide because when I look at men in the Middle east, for example, they face each other, they kiss each other on the cheek, they're very tactile, they're very emotionally invested. I'm not saying they have a perfect culture, but I'm just saying that there is a real sense of brotherhood over there. And you see this in many, like other cultures as well. Certain places in Europe, the men are more likely to go fishing together and go and actually plan things with one another. It specifically feels quite United Kingdom and United States for, for men also to disappear their lives into their marriages. And. And women are really known for preparing for their third act, whereas men don't. Men atrophy after middle age and they allow their friendships to. To dissipate and they're expecting, well, my wife will have friends and I'll just make friends with the husband of whichever friend of hers I get along with. And they lose their own sense of stability and then they lose their sense of self.

[B]

A lot of, you know, what we're talking about is sort of reflective of a more heteronormative culture. Right. Do you think some of that comes from the shifting that's happened in society around men and kind of an emotional learning? I think that's happened. Or an opening up to. Men are beginning to be more. I can't think of the right word. It's like emotional intelligence, but that there's also. I look at my brother who's a dad as compared to when my dad was raising us, you know, that my brother not saying my dad didn't want to, but my brother not only wanted to, but is expected to be way more involved as a dad than I think the boomer generation dads were. So do you think that some of that is the generational change that's happening and we're just happen to be in the middle of it, so they haven't figured out. No.

[A]

Okay. No. I think men have been misguided by patriarchy to think that there is no reason to live other than you work and then you raise a family, even if you don't really spend much time raising that family. It's Just like you provide and you protect and you go out and have a job. I don't think men have really been instilled with much meaning by patriarchy. I don't think they've been encouraged to enjoy their lives, enjoy their friendships, indulge in pleasure very much. You know, it's all, it's all just like a quick wank on pornhub, you know, a quick outlet like that. It's a quick burst of like release everywhere. But men aren't encouraged to have any softness whatsoever and to really make memories of their own. They're not encouraged to really spend that much time with their kids. You know, this idea that it's changing, it is changing. It was changing. And now we're swinging back to a culture where we don't want women to work and we want women back in the home. And, and what happens when we do that is that then the woman spends all the time with the kids and the woman grows the bond with the kids. And you're the fucking guy that checks in and checks out. Like you're off before they wake up for school and you're. They're in bed by the time you get home. This is not going to work out for men, the direction in which we're going. And so I do think that I, I personally think, you know, just to be fully. It's all capitalism based. I think that you. I think we are a culture that deliberately pushes isolation because isolation makes you more likely to be depressed and being more depressed makes you more likely to consume. I don't know about you, but I've never done online shopping when I feel really good and really content and really satisfied. I online shop when there's some part of me that feels dissatisfied and uncomfortable or not good enough or lonely and I need a little hit of dopamine. I am, I, I don't buy anything from. I can tell. My, My bank account tells me how happy I am. My Uber Eats account tells me how happy I am.

[B]

I had to go on a doordash diet for a little while where it was like, get up, get in your fucking car and drive and pick it up if you're not going to make your own food. Yeah, like just even that of just the sense of something that was even, you know, close by me because we drive everywhere in la and I mean, the amount of time we're just.

[A]

Yeah, we're not a culture directed towards happiness, we're a culture directed towards consumption. And we then have this really unnatural, separated, dystopian society that Then we're given pills for and everything's pathologized. But people who feel anxious and depressed in a world in which we are so isolated from each other, in which loneliness is now an epidemic, was an epidemic before the pandemic. Right. You know, I think the numbers were something like 70% of people within, like huge bursting populations felt desperately lonely. This was in the. The Surgeon General of the United States, his book, you know, so Dr. Vivek Murthy, and so he was reporting this before the, the, the now beyond ridiculous shift in the way that we socialize with one another. I really think it's all down towards. I genuinely do. I think it's towards making us as unhappy as possible. So we'll buy as much as possible. And I know that that's a really big swing to take, but I don't really give a shit because I think I'm right.

[B]

It's interesting. I think it's a strand. I mean, I don't know that it's everything. Yeah, but I think it's. I mean, for me, I think that certainly sounds like a valid argument in terms of part of why it happens. I mean, and I think a layer of it has happened and we're going to see it again with AI, but from the Internet. So I think it was sort of this technolog, you know, invention, slash revolution, that we saw the good things, but we didn't actually know where it was going to go. We didn't actually know how it was going to blossom.

[A]

We did have lots of warnings though, we were warned like two or three years ago that, oh, that 100 million jobs would go within five years.

[B]

Right, but that's what I mean on.

[A]

Using it to write our work emails and be our therapists.

[B]

But that's what I mean, where we are going with AI. And I don't think, I think with the Internet, I don't think we saw. I don't know, I mean, I, I think from the outside, in terms of social media, it leaned more towards a positive than a negative. Right. And now, of course, we've seen all.

[A]

The underwelling, everything good, don't we? Extraordinary. The human capacity to just destroy it.

[B]

It is, I'm sure, I'm sure in some other timeline they just sort of cross over and go, not that, not Earth, not, not this dimension, not third dimension. No, thank you. I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel like there are both with the Internet and I think where we're going with AI, which is going to. Which is following the exact same pattern we didn't retrain people from, with the technological revolution. And I think that's a large part of where, how we ended up where we are today.

[A]

Right.

[B]

People don't have purpose. They don't. And I think that's, I think that's almost the, the most dangerous thing is when people don't have purpose.

[A]

It's going to be really scary when, you know, especially in a country like the United States of America, people's entire identity has been tied to their work. Often, you know, I don't know if this is outside of California, but wherever I go, the first thing I'm asked is always, what do I do?

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's supposed to be such.

[A]

A defining part of culture. Right. And so when you take that away from people and you just pull the rug from under their feet, they haven't developed their hobbies, they haven't had time to develop their hobbies. They don't know where they want to go. Yeah. You know, there was a whole period of thousands of years in which we didn't have a place to clock in and clock out. We had personalities and identities and passions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so I think the other side of that might be really beautiful, but in the meantime, there's going to be a huge mental health crisis and we.

[B]

Haven'T even, we haven't even really addressed the one that, that emerged from the pandemic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I, I agree.

[A]

I mean, it's, it's existential. It is, it will be, it will be really, really crazy. And I think I started pre. Preparing for that years ago. The fact that I need to distance myself from my career as my identity and really start building up who I want to be because this, this shit's all going away. And so I've been very, very focused in what the next chapter of my life looks like. And it's very much so not. You know, I was coming up through the girl boss era and being turned into the face of a girl boss era whilst being someone who really hates working, so being really confused by that. And so I, you know, I really enjoy the job that I have the privilege of doing, but I also have a tremendous balance. And I care about nothing more than my happiness. I care about nothing more than pleasure. And I feel as though there's been such a war on women's pleasure in particular. It's considered this privilege, not a right. You know, that's why in the chocolate adverts from when we were growing up, the woman has like an orgasm from Eating a bite of chocolate. Because she can't believe. Yeah, but she can't believe. She's like, oh, something nice for the day. Yeah. And so I believe that pleasure should, should be my main focus in life. And that's everything that I am gunning towards. And I'm not going to find that always within this system.

[B]

Yeah, unpack for me what pleasure is for you. So like what's underneath pleasure? Do you know what I mean? Like, is that, is that your, your soul's expression? Is that feeling like, does that make sense, this question?

[A]

Yeah, of course. Okay, yeah. Pleasure for me personally, and I think it's completely different for everyone, but ultimately it's peace. Ultimately peace is pleasureful, but also delicious food. Treating my body kindly, not denying myself, not starving, not masking obedience as discipline. It means spending time with my loved ones. It means laughing a lot, like belly laughing every single day. Spending time with my animals, spending time with my boyfriend, orgasms, seeing beautiful things. I was raised to believe that, you know, there is this sort of point system and it's ironic that I made the Good Place, which is actually a show about the point system that, you know, you believe that, you know, we're raised, especially if you're raised religiously, to believe that, well, life is just the bit that you get through and you do as well as you can because the afterlife is going to be so great. And I stopped really feeling confident about an afterlife in my teens. And so after that I started to think, I don't think I want to live my life for this utopian guarantee gamble. It's a lottery, you know. And I, I had a near death experience when I was 15. I think I had meningitis and I don't know, man, who am I to say? But I didn't see shit. And I think that's what, that's what like radicalized me against the idea of living now through all this punishment to then just have this great, you know, promise of an alleged afterlife. So I really just think it's a life is, is not a test, it's an adventure. We're here to have as much fun as possible. We're here to come as often as possible. And I think if we were doing so, there would be far less war and far less problems and less violence. And I think that we are here to spend quality time and really get to know not only ourselves, but each other. Human beings so magical to me. They are my obsession and, and just getting into the weeds of other people is what lights up my brain so Pleasure is just lighting up my brain. Yeah, it's stimulating myself and having cheese.

[B]

It's interesting because I think some of what's coming up for me is, is, you know, the, there's so much suffering in the world and so it's that I think in the last 10, 11 years I've felt a lot of sense of purpose in helping to ease other people's suffering. And in a way that the pleasure and the suffering, they sort of not go together but they're the opposites. And so it's that sense of we can't, can we, can we live in a world that's about more pleasure when there's so much suffering or does orienting towards that life of pleasure.

[A]

But I don't think, you know, if you look at the way that I live my life, there's no lack of advocacy. But I find I take pleasure in using my life in a way that is meaningful and purposeful. I take pleasure in being stimulated. That is one of the things that lights up my brain is working out how to fix the puzzle and working out how to. Like I said, my obsession is people. So I am a full time advocate and it is my main passion far beyond entertainment. But that is something that I consider. I'd much rather spend my time doing that than punishing my body for not looking like a 14 year old pedophile's dream. I am just happier to just to use my brain in the way that it was actually built. So I consider that important. But also I think it is imperative. And I think most great social justice activists throughout history have always said that you must maintain balance. So with all of the horror in the world, it is unsustainable. And I was someone who once didn't have any pleasure in my life and it was just give, give, give, give, give to everyone and anyone around me. And I found myself barren of any energy. And then I had a nervous breakdown and then I got really sick. So, so it's not sustainable. And then I wasn't able to help anyone. So you must live a life in which you salvage the good and the joy wherever you can not feel guilt about it unless it's at someone else's expense. Because otherwise what good are you to anyone when you're just a husk? And women in particular are expected only to withdraw. There is no talk of deposit, you know, apart from a fucking bunch of flowers, like once a year on the anniversary, if it's remembered. There isn't much emphasis on society depositing, depositing happiness and women even Wellness culture is ultimately around making ourselves, us look less tired than we actually are from the we have to eat all day. It's all about the way that we look to society. So little of what is actually invested in women is about our peace and our joy and our happiness and our pleasure. I, I really like, I struggle, I struggle with the way that, that self care is packaged for women.

[B]

Yeah, I, I agree. I think it's become, well, it's like most anything when it starts to become a big business.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It becomes something very different than where. I mean spirituality has become that too. I mean the number of times I don't know where you fall on the woo woo scale, but I'm very woo woo. And so the number of times now that it's it, you just start to see concepts and terms being used in these bigger ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you just. Or someone will try to school you.

[A]

I mean so much of my culture has now been turned into a wellness space. I don't know, I just, I would like an extension of the self care industry that also works on the inside rather than just finding a way to survive this world, which is what it feels like it is now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think we're moving towards, I think of it as kind of modern trauma that I think we are moving towards having a lot more of those conversations in society that are connected. I mean, think about how much more do you hear people talking about the nervous system and the vagus nerve now? Way more than you did five years ago. And that's, you know, that's valuable, I think in terms of how we, we are trying to balance those things. Yeah, right.

[A]

But, but we also need to make sure that those conversations leave the upper middle class. You know, like it's. We have a lot of privileged women having those conversations.

[B]

Well, that was.

[A]

But we don't have.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, working mothers of three.

[B]

No.

[A]

Having those conversations. And that's something that I feel very passionately about is like how do we democratize this information and also rebuild in which women are not expected to be the dog's body of society. Yeah.

[B]

My, I've said this so many times on the podcast that people be to hear it again. But my sort of life goal, if I, you know, had a magic wand, would be to have sort of like emotional trauma urgent care centers, you know, everywhere that it did. That would exactly do exactly what you're talking about because I do think. And it's so important to society and also preventative. Exactly.

[A]

Like my biggest Obsession is preventative, is like before we even need the refuge centers and the trauma centers. How do we rebuild a world in which, not to be indelicate, but men don't like, fuck up the world for us as badly as they do. And I know that men also fuck up the world for each other in a way that I feel incredibly empathetic towards them for I know that they are in some ways as afraid of other men as we are.

[B]

That's interesting.

[A]

They are. That's why they don't stand up for us. And so I think I just feel very. Not with a sense of misandry, with a sense of huge empathy to. I would like to help men and women organize together against patriarchy because it's fucking all of us. Like the suicide rates are largely men. Homelessness largely men. Addiction largely men. The people who will die at war, largely men. I really, really believe that we need to have like a really big sit down, men and women together and go. The patriarchy is actually designed to fuck you. And we're a distract. We are the distraction to make you think you're fucking us over. But actually you're the ones who are going to get conscripted, not us. You're the ones who are going to get sent down the mines. You're the ones who are going to end up doing the most dangerous and unnecessary jobs in society for wealthy, powerful men at the top. Because if we could come together and organize, then perhaps we could live in a peaceful world and they could just get off our fucking necks so that we could live in an organized society. There is no, there is no society in which women are oppressed that has a strong gdp, a high mental health rate, a functioning society, all the places that allow women to not just have freedom, but take some of the burden off of men as well, lead to a happier world. And we know that. So it's so sad to watch this backslide globally. Yeah.

[B]

Do you think it's possible that, that the way AI may dismantle so many things in society that it may get so bad that it leads to this actually being able to happen?

[A]

I don't know. I don't really know because I think, I don't know if it's just men or human beings, but I think that people or men like to believe that there's someone lower than them in order to not recognize where they stand in society. They are more bred towards hierarchy than women are. Women are by nature. It's not, it's. Obviously it's possible for someone to adopt Hierarchy and there are many misogynist women in the world. But largely women are egalitarian by nature and men are more. Men are bred to be more hierarchical. So I don't know, I think this has to be a conscious decision of understanding that it benefits you when women are empowered, when they're fulfilled, when they're stimulated. You have a stimulating person to come home to who's actually got something to say for herself because she went out into the world and did something for herself. She can take some of the burden, burden and some of the slack off of you. So you can also spend time with your kids so that they don't fucking hate you when you're old, when you know they get older, you can have time with your friends as well. There's a whole restructuring of society that leaves, leads to a softer life for everyone and then we won't push them away at the numbers that we're pushing them away. This is the first time in history that women have ever had to choose men not based on necessity or survival, but based on their characters. And look at what's happening. There's a male loneliness epidemic. This has to be addressed for the sake of women, but also of men.

[B]

So is there, from what you've seen in looking at things through this lens, like in the same sex relationships, is it about the roles, is it from.

[A]

What I see of same sex relationships, I think there tends to be more egalitarianism and especially amongst the women I know who are raising children together, both parties have the mental load, both parties anticipate each other's needs. Needs, you know, there. I'm not saying it's perfect. And there's definitely reports intimate partner violence that can happen between women. That intimate partner violence is of a much less severe and deadly nature than it is when it's between heteronormative couples. I'm not saying that it's a utopia, but I am saying that because there's less of this fear of emasculating anyone, everyone just takes on the load. Loads of women are now starting to leave their husbands and move in with other single mothers and start got communities together where everyone knows no one has to delegate to each other.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They're able to just take some initiative. And that's really sad for men because I believe men would enjoy being a part of this. I believe men would have more self esteem if they were to, you know, rise up to the situation. So, you know, I'm not about calling men out. I'm also, I don't think it's worthwhile calling them in. I'm calling men up because I believe in men. And I think the men in the manosphere who say, man, the only way to have a functioning society is to keep these down because they're catching up too fast. I think those men are deeply emasculating because they don't think that you're. They don't think you can grow. They don't think you can develop initiative. They don't think that you can grow emotionally. They're telling you to stay where you are and just keep everyone else down, hold the women down. That to me is deeply emasculating. I'm saying to men, I believe in you. I know what you're capable of. If women could catch up this fast to where, you know, what, 40 years since we've had access to bank accounts, we're now a viable, credible threat. And we're outperforming them in certain industries, at school, in the market, in the property market. We are 80%, I think, of consumers still. If women can, can, can match all of that in, in just a matter of decades, after several thousand years of being, having all of our rights stripped away from us, including being married off by as children, I believe men can achieve more than they are currently achieving. And so I'm calling them up because I believe in them and I love them.

[B]

How is that different? I'm not challenging you. I'm trying to understand.

[A]

I love being challenged. Well, you should challenge me all the time.

[B]

How is calling up different from calling in?

[A]

Because I think that, that there's a different framing of it, right? I'm, I'm not calling them in to, to scold them and say, you're not doing this, you're not doing this. I'm saying you could be this.

[B]

Right?

[A]

This is how this could be. I'd like to inspire men. I don't want to tell them off. I don't want to moan at them. I don't want to nag. I don't want to be their mother. I want to show them the, what the world could be like for them. That's, that's all. Like, I want to present more positive male role models. I don't want to just on the, the, you know, cockroaches of the manosphere and keep talking about them. I want to get away from hyper focusing on them and focus on the great men in society, the great dads, the great community members, the men who stand up for women, the men who, who are not so insecure that they just follow the orders of patriarchy or lose it like men who lead independently. I believe that femininity is inherently more rebellious an individual. The masculinity, from what I see. And I don't know if that's really interesting. I don't know if that's. I don't know if that's natural nurture. But I do know that men are more likely to fall in line. We see more men in the army, more men in ice, more men going down to do the more dangerous jobs for a wealthy man up top. I think that men tend to be more submissive, more likely to follow orders, and I think more likely to take cue from one another as to how to behave. And I think some men feel afraid to step outside of the rules of patriarchy and embrace a bit of their feminine energy. But all the men who have gone on to do the greatest and most rebellious things tend to be embracing of their feminine side. They tend to be able to be soft, and they tend to be able to break the rules. The true rule breakers, to me, are always a bit more on the feminine side.

[B]

Who are people that you. That you would put in that category if they're.

[A]

I feel like men like Mark Ruffalo, Pedro Pascal, Zora Mamdani. I would say Julian Assange is obviously someone who is a divisive political figure, but he was incredibly rebellious and. And someone who definitely embraced his feminine side without being a feminine person. You don't have to be a feminine person.

[B]

Right.

[A]

To be able to adopt your softness and your emotions. Well, I think.

[B]

I think President Obama.

[A]

Bernie, for fuck's sake.

[B]

Came from a. I think President Obama came from a more feminine energy, for sure.

[A]

Even Dwayne the Rock Johnson, he's a softy. You know, he's a softy who loves being a girl. Dad, that's an incredibly masculine man. But it's. He's so masculine that he doesn't fear his feminine side. He doesn't fear his softness. And so I think there are lots of these men in society who are great role models for not being so afraid. You know, boys aren't. Boys aren't raised to be men. Boys are raised just not to be girls. And I think that that is the crisis of our society. There's no real role modeling. They're just told what not to be. They're. They're terrorized and terrified of anything that feels remotely feminine and female. And actually, women are terribly strong. And we know that because if after almost somewhere between 6 and 10,000 years of patriarchy, we still haven't submitted. I don't think we're going to. And if you have to marry us off at the age of nine, then what does that tell you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, how afraid must you be of us? You only seek to destroy something that you're afraid of. You would not only need to take our voting rights away or take away our right to education because you're afraid of what would happen if we know. You're only afraid of older women and older women having a voice and an opinion and access to younger women if you're afraid of what they're going to tell other women. You're afraid of. Of sitting with or dating a woman your own age because she might be able to actually see. So you have to date someone who's barely out of her teens because she won't have your number because she doesn't even understand the world yet. It's all fear, all of its fear. It's hatred, it's a mask of hatred, but really it's terror. They're so afraid of us, and it's so sad because that strength that we have doesn't have to be subdued. It could be harnessed more intelligently than this. Sure.

[B]

Absolutely. I'm so curious about, like, I'm very in awe of how confident you are and how sort of set and strong. Not set and strong. That's the wrong way to phrase it, but I just.

[A]

How much audacity I possess.

[B]

Well, maybe in some instances, but I'm just. I'm so curious about, you know, like, how you became this. Were you. You like this as a kid? Did you evolve into this?

[A]

Was there a. I changed. Yeah, I changed a lot. I was definitely shy. I was someone who didn't believe that my life had any value. I'm. I'm not confident in all of the ways. I just don't believe that it is my job to be perfect and I don't believe it is my job to be right all of the time. And I don't believe it is my job to please everyone or be approved of by everyone. I think I just have quite bit a. A sturdy sense of self in which I accept myself. I'm not. I'm always, you know, I'm always a work in progress. But I don't feel this responsibility that I've been bred with to. To have everyone, to meet everyone's needs and to match everyone's individual tastes. And I think it's this bizarre, bonkers thing that we put on girls from such a young age to be palatable. I Don't think it's my job to be palatable. Some people like, you know, my vibe, and some people don't. And I think that's great. And I think that's fine. Because really, what it was for me, if you want to know, that liberated me, was realizing how many people I dislike. And when you realize how many people you find boring, like, there's certain people that I love and I adore, and as long as they love and adore me back, then I know I'm doing a good job. But I don't seek the approval of anyone who I don't respect, whose life I don't consider a model for what I want. I'll listen to other people's feedback and I take it on board. And I've definitely learned and grown from it. So I'm not saying no one should correct me. I'm just saying that I don't think it's going to shatter my soul or my identity if I make a mistake or if I don't please everyone. I'm here on my own personal journey. Like, this is not a service I'm providing to the world and learning. That was a huge rebellion against a patriarchal system. I'm just here in my own little bubble, living my own little life, and I'm doing what I can, and I'm meeting my own standards, and I don't believe I have to perform anything for anyone. I'm also turning 40 in a few weeks. Like, I think that's a massive help. I think the older you get, the more you realize that, oh, wow, I can traverse unbelievable challenges and controversies. I can't fucking wait. I can't fucking wait. And you realize that you don't die on the other side of it. The worst part of youth is not knowing what's going to happen when the shit hits the fan. When the shit hits the fan and you get older, you realize, I just clean the fan or buy another one, for fuck's sake.

[B]

Look, it's really.

[A]

Does that make sense? Yeah, absolutely. So it's really not. It's not coming from a place of I'm so great. It's coming from a place of I don't fucking have to be right and everyone can fuck off.

[B]

But it's just. It's interesting because I think some of what's coming up for me is I found myself listening and thinking, as one does, about this idea of, okay, I. I think that I'm not like that, right? And. And what? I don't know.

[A]

So traumatized in front of the world.

[B]

And that's what I was going to say is I don't know. I don't know if I always. I would have ended up this way. Whether or not that had happened or if it is a function of having been shunned for such a long time in such a. In such a destabilizing way, really, that.

[A]

I mean, it's just taken forever for you to even grasp your identity. Oh, I'm outside of the world's perception. Like, you must still be on a journey of that. Yeah, of course. That makes complete sense. I was a little older than you when I was dragged into like, you know, the global pylon for daring to have a fucking opinion. But it is really destabilizing. It's a choice you make. It's a choice you make that you then work on every single day. It is a true. Because I still have, you know, the flinch and the instinct to fawn and to, okay, falter and to people, please. That still happens. But it's just a constant reminder that I am here for me. I'm doing my best. I'm not here to answer for a bunch of people, to a bunch of people who can't meet the standard that they're setting. For me, a great example is magazine editors and the heads of the fashion and beauty industry is they do not look the way they're telling all of us to look so they can do one as far as I'm concerned. Because who are, who are you to set the standard? Who are the manosphere podcasters to set the standard for us as to how we should look and how we should behave? Look at the way they look. Look at the way they behave. I really just think unless you're modeling it, you should not really be dictating it. So, you know, it's, it's, it's a, it's a constant practice of almost like my own self inflicted cognitive behavioral therapy.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

To remind myself this is like my main discipline in life is to remind myself that logic must prevail and the logic of our current society of patriarchy, of misogyny, of racism, of all these things, it just doesn't add up, up. And, and it is the how illogical it all is that continues to fuel me. It's the spite against how illogical it is. And spite is what I am. I run on spite. Right?

[B]

But where, how does spite fit into pleasure?

[A]

What do you mean? Is there anything more pleasurable than having just a little, little burst of spite? We're not saints. Do you Know what I mean? Everyone enjoys a bit of pettiness, spite. I find it very pleasurable because it's something that was taken from me for such a long time. I was told just to eat and, and disappear when I'm no longer fertile or so I enjoy having a little bit of spite and spite knowing that there's, you know, there are people who make tens and tens and tens of billions, if not trillions of dollars off of my self. Hatred of my image makes me want to spite them and not give in. Makes me want to eat the gelato or do something nice for myself or abstain from any kind of procedure that would be risky for me. So that's fillers, that's Botox, that's injections that I don't personally need. I don't participate in that. I don't participate in chemical peels. I don't participate in threads or anything that could possibly risk my wellbeing even a centimeter. I'm not up for that. There's enough risk in this world just living as a woman, a woman. Just getting from A to B as a woman and hoping someone doesn't break into your home while you're in it. There's nowhere that's safe. Like, I'm already living enough risk just sharing the world with men. I'm already in enough pain just having these periods that never end. I and, and all the ways in which we're neglected by the medical industry. I'm good. I'm not gonna go and pay using the money that I earned less on the dollar for than a match men for potential discomfort. Like, there was a woman on the Internet, I don't know her name, but she was like, okay, so one day I'm gonna grow older and then men won't want to have sex with me anymore. Like, don't threaten me with a good time. And I, I understood what she was saying. And that's not again to bash men. But if someone is not attracted to the way that I look, that's okay. I'll be fine. I'm not gonna run around hurting myself or risking my, you know, there are people who've died getting BBL injections. There are people who die getting mummy makeovers. And at the end of the day you're like, oh God, I do. And don't want to know what thought she had at the very end. Was it worth it? For whom? For what? And I'm not judging her at all. Fuck knows. With my anorexia when I was younger, I did everything I could to hurt this body. But now that I'm sober of patriarchy, I really always ask myself for who, for what? And I think this is the most condensed answer I can give you for how I have arrived at all of these conclusions is to obsessively think about my old lady self. I obsessively think about my 85 year old self and I think about my deathbed. And that encourages me and motivates me to make moments last and to do what she would wish I did. What would she wish that I wore tonight? Who? Where would she wish I went? What would she hope that I ate at this meal meal at this restaurant that I'm really lucky to be at in a world where there is so much famine, like, what would she want me to do? What would she want? Would she want me to stand up for myself right now? Yeah, she probably would. Would you want me to spend time with this person? No, she wouldn't. Would she want me to take that job? No. Would she want me to take this much scarier job? Yes, she wants the adventure. So every decision I make is for her. We're so encouraged to look back, but women in particular are never encouraged to look forward. We're encouraged to dread what is coming ahead.

[B]

Well, it's interesting what's coming up for me is, and I haven't thought about it this way is this idea of we have spent so much time in maybe the last decade or two, right, with the psychology of the inner child and healing our inner child, right? And, and she's always with me and all the different versions and all the different things. And I think what you're talking about is really interesting of this idea of that other self being this older version.

[A]

Of you planning for her, not warding her off. So many of us ward her off and it's like, no, she knows what's up. She's got all the answers. She's having way more fun. Whenever you watch interviews of women in their 80s, 90s, even 100, and you ask them, you know, what would you have done differently? It's almost always like, I wish I had not centered my life around a man, or I wish I had done more of what I wanted, or I wish I had misbehaved more. I wish I had not cared so much what people think unequivocally, those are the answers. I've never yet heard someone say, I wish I'd been thinner. I wish I'd had less wrinkles. I wish I'd been more obedient. It's never the case. So I really take heed of those words. And I think we're very lucky to have access to those words and access to these women. And the reason society tries to erase these women and make these women try to behave like young girls and look like young girls and mutilate ourselves to emulate youth is because they're terrified of what we might tell the younger ones. And so I feel very, you know, that's why I'm trying to launch my cronies early, is because I'm desperately trying to warn younger women and all women not to go into the basement. Don't go and investigate the sound of there's patriarchy knocking down there. Please don't go down there. Stay up here and honor your life and honor your body and honor your health. You know, I took a really bad fall last night at a premiere for everyone, and I have marble burns on my skin.

[B]

Okay, I'm sorry, what?

[A]

I know because I fell on marble and I went against it and I didn't know you could burn yourself on marble. But I was saying to my publicist this morning that, thank Christ I don't have an eating disorder anymore and I'm building back my body because. Because the osteoporosis that's coming from the hyper normalizing of becoming super skinny at all costs and taking all the injections and then not really doing the work to lift weights because no one wants to look bulky means that that fall, if I hadn't been eating for the last 10 years, could have been multiple fractures because I really went down on marble. And it really motivates me to be like, right, I need to get even stronger. I need to get even more muscular. Because osteoporosis is real. Dying of a fall is real, and it is coming to women faster than in any other gener because of what we are doing to maintain super skinny, this fucking ridiculous body type that doesn't make sense for anyone over the age of a prepubescent child other than someone who's got an obscene metabolism. And even then they should be muscular.

[B]

Talk to me a little about the. The period of anorexia, because I think that, you know, so many people tend to think that it's about thinness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what was it for you, how you see it now?

[A]

Now, for me, it was about obedience. It was about not. It was about knowing that I'm so different in so many other ways. So perhaps if I could comply in this one way, that I would be less bothered and people would, you know, I'd be able to fit in and. And then people would be nicer to me because you are treated differently when you're skinny. And so I was just trying to do what I thought was expected of me and that there's an anthropological basis to this. Right. Like fundamentally, on some level, we all want to be included. We don't want to be left. And women are given this messaging that you will be left behind, you will be left behind if you don't meet whatever new standard exists now. And so what's so funny is that when you get older, you realize, oh, it's a loop. All these things that were in fashion come in and out of fashion, and then they come in and out of fashion again. I've maintained the same hairstyle for 38 years.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Partially as an experiment, seeing how often I. It comes back into fashion and my hairstyle literally gets called out, out as like a new trend every four years. And it's a picture of me and my exact same hair that then went out of fashion. So I'm like, why don't I just stay this. My body has largely not changed most of my life since I had anorexia. I. I just like, what if I just stay the same? I'll just keep coming in and out of fact. It's such a funny trend. You know, I think as soon as enough people reach super skinny curves are going to come back. Some actress or model or singer will come onto the scene with massive tits and thighs and an ass. And everyone will go, this is exciting. Bored of all you bitches who look the same. And everyone will be running back to the bbls that they just had removed and getting all the tits that they had removed put back in. It's just a cycle of hell. And so I think I was subscribing to that cycle because I didn't want to get left behind. And recovering was realizing that, oh, you never do get left behind. And actually this is nonsense. This is just for someone else's profit. And I think for some people, eating disorders can be about control. I'm sure there was an element of that as a young woman in this world, it's very hard to feel in control of anything. Feel like it's very hard to grasp your autonomy. But it was obedience. And when I look around now how super skinny everyone's getting, women of all ages and the tweaking and the facelifts and everything, I don't judge them. I despair of their obedience and their compliance. That's all I can see everywhere what I used to see is as an aspiration I now see as obedience and compliance. And that makes me really sad because there's this whole life to live that we're missing out on. And I can say from experience how all consuming diet, culture, culture is how all consuming, picking yourself apart, looking in the mirror for things to fix is. It made me a boring person, it made me an exhausted person. I was too tired to have sex, I was too tired to socialize. I would avoid socializing in case I might eat too much at that delicious restaurant that I fucking wish I'd eaten at. It's very navel gazing, it's very self obsessive and I don't think it lends itself to you being particularly fascinating or compelling. Not to say that I am now, but I'd say that I'm a more stimulating person than I was then. And so when I look around at all that of this, it's a fucking full time job trying to beat time and gravity and I just can't be asked.

[B]

Yeah, it's interesting. So we were, I was chatting with one of my producers yesterday and she was talking about, she was educating me that I think that it's like only 30% of people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Will never recover from anorexia. And she's grateful to have been someone who like you, has also recovered. And it just, it's so. I think it's such an important, it's such a important moment to sort of really explain in a sense for people who are struggling like what one person did, like what you did to get through it, what got you to the other side. Why do you think you got to the other side does that?

[A]

Of course. Yeah. So for me I did something called EMDR therapy, which is eye movement desensitization reprocessing therapy. And that reshaped my attitude towards food and took food away from being rebellion or self punishment or love or you know, all the different things that you start to sublimate, you know, regarding food and then so learning to see it as fuel and nourishment and pleasure and something good, learning to see my body as my best friend and understanding that this is my ride or die. I had a one month house party when I was 23 and I'm still alive. It's because of this body. It kept me going. It kept me going through assault, it kept me going through constant terror of this world. It kept me going through crazy jobs, through learning martial arts for marble and like all the accidents that I've had from how clumsy I am, this body has taken me through so much and. And then I dare to disparage it for not looking like an image that was created by a man who wants to have sex with teenagers. Teenagers. Like, that's ultimately what we're all gunning towards here. There are men who want to have sex with teenagers who have created a beauty standard that normalizes their desire to have sex with teenagers by making us all look or try to look like teenagers. And that is deeply unacceptable to me. And so understanding that and going, no, actually, I think my body's worth more than this and she deserves a bit of love and care. And that doesn't mean just also putting a bunch of alcohol and in your body. It means treating your body like an engineering that needs to be nourished and cared for. And I don't say bad things about my body in the mirror anymore. And I don't. I don't treat it with the disdain that we have been trained. We've been trained to teach our bodies like they are some sort of disobedient disgrace. Yeah.

[B]

Yes, agree.

[A]

Like a hindrance. Yes. And it's fucking an engine that's taking you to your life.

[B]

But I think more almost of what happens or what's a reflection now is. Is there's been so much trauma in the world, and the response to trauma that's not recognized or dealt with is dissociation. Right. So I think so many of us have become dissociated from our. Or at least that's my own experience, you know, of dis.

[A]

But also, again, your body wasn't allowed to be your own in such a formative period of your life. Yes.

[B]

And even before 98. So I think that there are, you know, it's just interesting. Have you done somatic therapy?

[A]

I haven't done somatic therapy. Okay. No. I'd love to, though.

[B]

Yeah. It was really, really. It's been really, really interesting for me to just sort of. I think just even the. I. I become fascinated with how I never even noticed certain things, how disconnected I was.

[A]

Oh, totally. And I'm super disconnected from my body. But that's why I think I had to do it.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

I wasn't to do. No. But that's why I have to personify it. I have to look at it as this separate being that I'm. I've been gifted the. The privilege of looking after because I can't. I can't feel it. I don't feel pain. So I've learned to intellectualize it and go, this was Someone else's body. If this was the body of my best friend and she gave it to me to look after, what would I do for it? I would look after it. I would be gentle with it. I would. I would think about its hormones and how to honor those hormones. And I would think about its cycle and its needs and what it needs to eat today. I would not be thinking about whether some masses man liked it or not.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And so that's how I've managed to overcome that is really like intellectualizing and understanding that this is a whole. This shit's. This. This vessel is going to be with me until the day I die. And I'm so grateful to it, and I'm so sorry to my body for everything that I said and did to it. Shame on me. I understand that I was mentally ill. I understand that it was kneeling disorder. I understand that it was amorphous and pervasive and insidious and even obvious cultural programming. But I maintain responsibility for what I did, and I maintain accountability for what I did. And that helps me know that I won't do it again. I feel very, very, very passionately about women. I feel very hopeful for us. I. I love women so deeply, and I would be dead without them. And I deeply, deeply regret my many misogynist years in my early 20s and in my teens, where I was so blinded and I really lost out on women. And. And I. I also care very deeply for men, and I want. I want men to be happier in this world. I. I believe there is a better way for all of us to coexist. I feel as though I. I witnessed. Witnessed some of that culture growing up in Spain in the 90s, and the different way that, you know, even nudity was just so chill. It was just so. It was such a lovely thing to be able to see people with all kinds of different bodies, unashamed, enjoying it. Old tits, young tits, balls everywhere, you know, to the window, to the wall. And it not being such a big deal and people having community and people being more involved with one another and food being such a pleasurable thing. Rush through food to get back to your laptop or your phone. You sit and you really eat a meal. You have a nap in the afternoon. There's a cultural nap. Yeah. For sake. Yes.

[B]

What are we doing? Not living in the space.

[A]

You know, I. I think I'm so grateful that I was exposed to that at such a young age, because I always knew that that was my metric to get back to, you know, interesting. I, In. I. I tried Western, like, you know, hyper capitalist culture for a bit because I kept on being told, you'll in there. And then I climbed as close to the top as I'm probably gonna get. Like Time magazine, 25 most influential people. Like, blah, blah, blah. All the covers evoke, like, I hit all the markers, I made the money, I lived in the big house. Like, you know, I. I had all the stuff. And I was like, I'm still suicidal. And then I remembered, ah, Spain. It doesn't have to be. Spain is with me wherever I go now. And I really think that that was just a happier, simpler time time. And I'm deeply suspicious of anything that encourages us away from simplicity because humans are fundamentally complex and interesting and brilliant and beautiful enough without all this interference. Jesus Christ. Oh, amen.

[B]

My brain just keeps going in so many different directions and I struggle to like which.

[A]

How do you feel when I go on about what about all of this, like, having your, your. Your life, your identity, your appearance in particular, picked apart. Where are you at with all of this? Like, especially as, like, you've gone through a point where I feel as though we were both talking about body image eight years ago during the rise of body positivity. And now we're back in ozempic culture and we're back in, like all of your peers having facelifts and having all the different things done. Like, how are you?

[B]

I'm. I think I fall in a place where, where I feel more confident in myself as a person and having. And I feel like every time I'm able to be more myself in the world and have it reflected back to me that that's what's been received. I think that I shed skin of trauma for myself from, from the older days. I still, I mean, it was.

[A]

There was no outlet for you to have any control over your own narrative back. No. Now you actually have a place where you can immediately offer a rebuttal.

[B]

Yes, but I don't always. I don't always, because I think there's still. I still live in a lot of fear. So I think there's.

[A]

I think of.

[B]

It's like, I don't know that this will make sense, but it is. I know it will make sense. It just may sound crazy. Crazy, which is almost like an earthquake will happen and everything I've built in the last 11 years making me emotional, will, like, be taken away again and I'll somehow find myself without purpose or, you know, without an income. So I think in that sense it's, it's. It's just trying to hold on to what's now and not what was.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But the living through the what was is, you know, which I know you've done in, in your own ways too. I mean, you know, it's you talking.

[A]

About oh, a global pylon may be suicidal. Yeah, it's really intense. I think that was what shifted me into finding immovable something that people can't take from me. My inner peace cannot be taken from me. I've learned to live a cheaper lifestyle so that if my money goes away or when my money goes away because I'm so outspoken, I'll be okay. I'm pre adaptive now to defensively adaptive but in a way that I find deeply satisfying to creating a world, a community and a life that no one can take from me. Because everything did get taken from me for a while. Not at the scale and it was global when it happened to me, but not at the scale of, of what happened to you.

[B]

But it doesn't.

[A]

And no, but the point is, is that. But, but, but it's so amazing that you're aware of that terror and you must continue to. You can't just think that away and you can't even crystal and Kumbaya or somatic therapy it away. Those are all important. But you have to actually actively build a world that nobody can take from you. Because if you can just protect your mind and your body. I know from having lost my mind and then lost control over my body that those suddenly came into focus as the two most important things that I will ever have. And so now that I've got that shit on lock, provided I stop falling over and on marble, I feel, and I think this is what I resonate, an unshakable sense of self. Yes you do. And, and I think it's confusing to people because they're like where does this come from? What are you doing on the outside to create it? It's like nothing. I've actually started to take the outside world appearance, everything with a pinch of salt. I'll participate in a kind of fair weather way. But my shit is so simple. My lifestyle, my ethos, my priorities are so simple and so rigid that I know exactly who I am and nobody can tell me otherwise. Nobody can destabilize me from that. I like myself enough that everyone can hate me now and I've still got my own back. I will obviously take some suggestions if that happens. But my I, I love the tiny little life I've built.

[B]

What does that look like?

[A]

It's it's waking up and having cake with coffee for breakfast because that's what I fucking want. And I know you're not supposed to have fucking sugar in the morning, but everyone could go fuck themselves because it's the nicest way to wake up. It's time. Quality time with my dogs, quality time with my friends. Writing on substack, you know, or writing something that's. No one can tell me what to say or what to do. Having my own podcast that I independently fund so that no one can tell me what to do or what to say. Meeting, stimulating people and going to bed with a brain not full of fear, but full of excitement and hope and idea. Is. And so that's what it is. I'm very protective of my piece. I don't spend a lot of time online. I don't spend a lot of time wishing I had more. I spend so much time grounding and focusing in on what I have that no one can take anything from me because so much has been taken from me. You know, I. I was molested as a child. Like at that point, like, your innocence is. Is. Is stolen. Although I don't really believe it's your innocence that gets stolen.

[B]

Okay, I have a weird thing more on that.

[A]

Well, I don't know. Like, I've always been told my innocent. Like my N was stolen, but I believe I've still got my innocence. I believe my innocence remains. Even though I've seen the most cynical, darker side of human beings. I'm not like that. I don't have an instinct. I don't even have an understanding of how you do that to another human being. All the things that I see done that are ugly, not just child abuse. All the things, the bullying, all these different things. I'm like. I couldn't conceive of waking up and deciding to do that. My innocence is intentional attacked. And the men that hurt me have not taken that from me. And it was not personal. I was there, unfortunately against my will and witnessing someone else's monstrous darkness. And so I don't consider that having been taken from me. Nothing's been taken from me apart from my fucking time. And so at some point, I have to take agency over how much more of my time I will allow to go and be taken. Taken. And no more. No more minutes belong to anyone other than me. And I really believe that you can re. Stabilize yourself by. By building a bunker inside of yourself that that creates an immovable thing in you because you're incredibly strong and incredibly resilient for what you've had to overcome. And well, like you, work in progress. Progress. A work in progress, of course. But build your bunker. Every woman here, build your bunker. Because then your partner leaving you, this happening, losing your job, all these different things, obviously these come with huge, you know, ramifications and I'm not a mother, so therefore I have a huge privilege and that there is no one depending on me or relying upon me. I'm well aware of that. But even then you can and must still build some form of emotional inner part bunker.

[B]

I think you are decades ahead of so many women I know who are in their 50s and 60s of acceptance. Like, for me, that's just the biggest gift of my 50s has been acceptance of this is where my life is. I've had to accept I have a big life. Every time I try to make my life small, the universe was like, that's not what's happening here. And it's a very, very strange, strange thing when you didn't choose to be a public person. Yeah, you know, it's just, it's strange that way. And I know you got into. I didn't totally understand the story, to be honest, of how you accidentally auditioned for the Good Place. So, like you accidentally became an actress.

[A]

I accidentally, I mean, I was a tv, I was a. I was an English teacher who got street scouted for Channel 4. And then that led to me to going to an audition that would go on to change the course of my life when I was 22. And then I tried all types of different hosting. I went to the BBC, I made documentaries, I was a VJ, I was a DJ. And then after a while, I was 28, I got bored. I was like, right, I want to do something else now. I want to go and write. So I went, came to America to write. I got signed to a big talent agency called 3 Arts as a writer. And then they happened to have the audition come through and they were looking for someone very tall and annoying. And immediately I sprung to mind, which is very rude. And I went to the audition somewhat against my will, but they just wanted to know if I could act. So they just sent me to see how disastrously badly it would go. I had no experience and I hilariously got it. And I think it's my strong sense of self sovereignty that gets me all these roles that I don't deserve because I think they're like, what is this? What are we looking at? Why is she so comfortable? I don't know if I'm confident. I think I'm Comfortable. And I think that might be even better. That's.

[B]

That's a very interesting distinction.

[A]

Does that make sense? Yeah, I don't think I've ever made that distinction before, but I think that's how I feel. Yeah. And also, confidence can be destabilized, but it's much harder to destabilize someone's inner comfort with themselves. Yeah.

[B]

Well, and confidence also. I don't quite know exactly what it is, but confidence sort of has a symbiotic relationship with other people that. It's like you can't. You're not just confident alone. You somehow are confident in front of other people, and they have to perceive you. You as that.

[A]

Yeah. It feels very subjective.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Whereas there's something objective about comfort, I'm objectively comfortable. And I. There's something subjective and. And shaky about the idea of confidence, so I think that's why I don't negotiate with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think I'm good at anything, and I'm fine with that because it's not my fault that other people hire me. That's on them. I'm a maniac, and I love it.

[B]

Oh, that's great. It's so great. I heard you say in. In a podcast, I. And I really loved this phrase to speak from the scar, not from the wound. Is that something you came up with, or had you heard that somewhere?

[A]

I don't believe I came up with that. Okay.

[B]

Because I haven't heard it before. No, but it was so. It just, like, hit me deep.

[A]

Yeah, it hit me deep. It really helped me understand the importance of where you deliver information from. You know, I think when I first. A lot of people who are aware of me for my voice, rather than my acting will. Will maybe have been introduced to a more extreme version of me, believe it or not. But I was. I was violent in my language and very rageful and callous, and I alienated the very people I sought most to open the minds of because I was so unhealed from my trauma, you know, when it was. 2015 was so weird because I'd been in this industry since 2008, and all that time, no one had wanted to know what my opinion was on anything other than, like, how I stay so thin. And then suddenly, in 2015, everyone had a microphone up my ass going, tell us about the infrastructure of patriarchy and the social expectations of women and all of the ways in which you have been harassed and, you know, wrecked in this world. And we were supposed to answer these questions as if we were trained politicians and orators, and we weren't, but those of us who had the mic in front of us knew this was an opportunity to say something thing before the urge to listen to women goes away, before this trend passes. So to say something that my inner 12 year old would have wanted to have heard. Yeah. So I did my best. But I was speaking from a very unhealed place and I've since gone on to heal that place in me so that I can actually meet people where they're at and understand that people are not just good or evil. We're complicated and we are products of our environment and we products of our upbringings and, and again, this comes out in my work about men is that I'm angry with the construct of patriarchy. I'm not angry with each individual man, but I'm, I'm disappointed in those who don't move to disrupt the system that benefits them. I'm disappointed in them. I find it very unattractive. But I do recognize the ways in which they've been fucked with and their vulnerabilities and the ways in which the patriarchy hurts them. And that's why I appeal, appeal to them with an oar rather than an ax.

[B]

Yeah, I, I just, I really, I appreciate your being able to even talk about that evolution in self and sort of being able to say, I. Regret's too strong a word, but I wish I had chosen different words.

[A]

I absolutely regret it. I regret it. And I also don't fear regret. I think this is, but that's what.

[B]

I'm getting at is I think it's, I mean, like I consider myself very lucky. I, I have no problem apologizing.

[A]

Yeah, same.

[B]

It's so easy for me. Like, oh, okay, everybody fucks up. I'm so sorry. That wasn't my intention or sometimes I was angry and that was my intention to poke you or be angry or whatever that is. But I don't think enough people talk about in a, in a. That I think sometimes it becomes too apologetic.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Instead of being able to say I needed to heal, I needed to evolve. I think it's so important for people, people to, to just see those examples.

[A]

Yeah. I think it's very important that we don't fear accountability because if we fear accountability, we can't actually instigate change. Yeah. If I, if I don't take responsibility for my own bad behavior, not just towards others, but mostly to myself, how can I change it? How can I grow? How can I evolve if I don't go, ah, that was my bad. Okay. I really. I really hurt myself. Or I really hurt that person. Yeah. Or I really hurt that group of people. I. I know I can change it because I've not been too much of a coward to look it in the face and go, that is really ugly and uncomfortable. And I really don't want to feel this way again. That's the only way you can actually purge it. Otherwise it just sits in you forever, just under the surface. And I don't want that. So I'd rather purge it properly and then actually fix it.

[B]

This feels like it's a redundant question, but I ask everybody at the end if they are working on reclaiming anything right now.

[A]

My time. I'm reclaiming my time. I've spent so much of it. I've wasted so much of it on such meaningless nonsense. And I'm reclaiming my time and using it very, very thoughtfully, very wisely. We are on the precipice of some sort of third world war. I do not wish to spend my remaining years of freedom and happiness and access to food worrying about whether some. Some restrictive archaic system thinks I'm good enough. So I'm reclaiming my time.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you so much, Jamila.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Yeah, it's. This has been really nice. A lot to think about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Reclaiming with Monica Lewinsky is hosted and executive produced by me, Monica Lewinsky production services by WTF Media Studios. Our theme song is by Ben Benjamin and our music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our story producer is Elna Baker and our senior producer is Megan Donis. For Wondery. Eliza Mills is development producer. Our managing producer is Taylor Sniffin. Nick Ryan is our senior managing producer. Senior producers are Candace Manriquez Wren and Emily Feld Brake and executive producers are Dave Easton, Erin o' Flaherty and Marshall Louie.